Topic: Arrow / The Flash

Should we just do one big DC thread for all of the shows, or would the spoilers get confusing?

Anyway, The Flash premiered last night and actually beat Agents of SHIELD in the ratings. Very good for Flash, very horrible for AoS.

The premiere was pretty good, I thought. Definitely a different tone than what we've been getting from DC lately, but that isn't a bad thing. I think that the lighter tone will appeal to a lot of people that might find Arrow or Gotham too dark. It is strange to have Weather Wizard exist in the same universe as Arrow, but we'll see how the two mix.

I do think that some of the actors need to find the sweet spot for their characters, but that is to be expected.

I know, I give DC shows a break when I wouldn't do the same for Marvel. But to compare pilots, AoS looked cheap (still does). The pilot for AoS had horrible lighting (one of the few problems that has been fixed), and one of the issues with that series is the lack of any style. Colors look okay... reds are red, blues are blue. But there's no mood to the colors. No thought put into them. The lighting is okay... we can see stuff now. But there's no art put into it. The wardrobe is a little cartoonish most of the time. The show is visually just flat and unappealing. Add to that the bland characters and kinda weak acting from most of the cast, and we don't even have to go into the stories themselves.

The Flash, on the other hand, had a distinct tone to it. There were moments where visuals were used to get us into the mind of the characters (the CG display of Barry's thought process as he examined the tire tracks for example) but they weren't overdone. The sets had depth to them, and the lighting kept them from looking too much like sets on a stage. The exterior shots were much broader and helped set the tone of the scenes (this is a problem for shows that film in LA and use a lot of backlots, as opposed to filming in actual locations). For the most part, the cast was pretty solid.

From a completely superficial standpoint, I did find myself looking at the West family and wondering how Wally West could be related to them. The redhead thing was always a pretty defining feature, at least to me. I guess he could always be adopted.

Re: Arrow / The Flash

Informant wrote:

From a completely superficial standpoint, I did find myself looking at the West family and wondering how Wally West could be related to them. The redhead thing was always a pretty defining feature, at least to me. I guess he could always be adopted.

No; Wally will be black.  Greg Berlanti has flatly said that they made Iris and her father black as prep work to introduce the New 52 Wally West into the show. … -american/

The Wally West we grew up with is dead, buried and gone except for maybe the occasional what if story (which DC is allegedly going to do in March as filler material while DC Comics moves it's operation from New York to Burbank).

Sliders - The Dimension of Continuity
Same Internet; Different Information.

Re: Arrow / The Flash

I didn't know that they were doing that in the comics. I'm actually a little upset about that. I have no problem with a black Flash, but why take an iconic character and change him like that? That isn't just an alternative version of the character, it is a completely different person.

I get that they want to represent black people. Cool. Do that. But doing it like this is just stupid. On top of that, I will go ahead and say that it is offensive. Redheads are bullied all the time. Why take a strong, iconic character that those kids can relate to and hand it off to another race? Why switch out one group for another? Why not just add a black character? Another bolt of lightning and there you have it.

I don't normally get worked up over this stuff, but Wally West was my Flash and one of my favorite characters. It is sad to kill him off, but it is insulting to slap his name on another character and act like it's all good.

Re: Arrow / The Flash

I really don't understand why the black community isn't more upset about this kind of thing.  "Want to have a black character?  Here - we'll paint some black face on this white character.  Problem solved."  How is that being respectful of black people?

I'm also confused by Berlanti's comment that he wants to be able to speak to the America watching his show.  Black people make up 13% of the US population in the last census.  Hispanics make up 17% (with likely more who wouldn't talk to census workers).  Why ignore Hispanics?

What about women?  Women make up over 50% of the world population - no female version of Wally?  Of course, network execs have proven time and again that they will actually kill super hero projects if too many women watch it.  Even though it was one of their highest rated shows, Cartoon Network cancelled Young Justice because demos showed the majority of their audience was girls; Cartoon Network believed the show was supposed to only sell toys to boys, so it was considered a failure.  Spike TV cancelled the successful Blade TV series because women were the viewing audience; Spike was supposed to be men only.

At its root, the race and gender bending of existing characters is based in ignorance, laziness and short sightedness.  Why more don't appreciate that, I'll never understand.  Will it stop me from watching Flash?  No.  But it will be a continuing disappointment that Berlanti feels he's righted some inequity by changing an existing character's skin color.

Sliders - The Dimension of Continuity
Same Internet; Different Information.

Re: Arrow / The Flash

I agree. By doing things this way, they are working against the cause that they claim to be promoting. To have a token black character is insulting. And doing it with an established character that people have loved for decades doesn't say "here is a great black character" it says "we don't have a great black character, so have a white one"

Token characters don't work. They have never worked. If the casting for this show had just been color blind and they wound up with black actors, I would shrug it off. But they Pete Ross-ed the characters, and we all know how well that turned out.

Re: Arrow / The Flash

Not to make this entire thread racial or anything, but 1 out of every 3 people on the planet is Asian.  And I can't think of more than a couple Asian superheroes or villains.  That's the group that is the least represented, and it's insane to me.

Re: Arrow / The Flash

Well I agree in respect to the comic book series, especially since The Original 1990's Flash TV show got me into The Flash comic, at the time I couldn't understand why the comic was focused on Wally West and not on Tv's Barry Allen.

Not knowing the back story of the comic, it was confusing that the TV version had nothing to do with the current version of The Flash, so if DC changed the race of Wally West, I do commend the TV Show for trying to stay close to the new comic world or source material.

I will say that I liked the Pilot episode of The Flash, it had something Agents of Shield's pilot did not have and that is likable characters.

AOS took most of the 1st season for the characters to grow on you, and season #2 it is the focus of new characters and changes in the old crew that finally make the team have characters that  have grown on you, (Say what you will about Sliders but for the most part the writers did make likable characters especially in season 1 and 2).

After a season of the AoS I still have no idea what their mission statement is or why they are least Flash is straightforward, he is trying to be a good guy to help the police force and undercover at that.

The Flash is more than that, with plenty of Easter eggs throughout the 1st episode to get any comic geek trying to figure out what the bigger picture is, from his moms death, with what looks like 2 speedsters dooking it out, to Gorilla Grodd's cage that looked like a Big dude broke out, to having the original TV Flash playing his dad, to the Handicap dude looking at a computer in the future with the headline of CRISIS<the spot in the comic book world that Barry gave his life>

I have to say I am very excited about this show, AOS lost me 3 episodes in and I didn't return till episode 16, when it got good again.

So for me Flash is #1 comic book show, then Arrow, then Gotham, then AOS.

Re: Arrow / The Flash

Wally West's wife was Asian, but I guess they did away with her too, and their kids.

I just don't get how they could do this. Giving Wally a different race means a different family, which just makes him an entirely new character. Why do that?

I hate political correctness BS. It is so forced and fake and hollow. It accomplishes nothing, except showing some completely fake desire to further some cause.

I'm glad that I stopped reading the comics. They are just destroying everything at this point.

Re: Arrow / The Flash

Spoiler warnings.

Can't comment on the Wally West thing. I haven't read it. I'm in yet another hiatus from comics. However, I did read the post-REBIRTH comics for Barry Allen just before the new-52 reboot -- and it made sense to me. On one level, yes, it was an odd choice to restore Barry Allen, a character most comic book readers today only know from flashbacks and stories set in the past. But DC has been trying to rework its properties into being what one would imagine a movie / TV series / animated show would serve up. And with that in mind, Wally West's story is far too convoluted for a general audience. He used to be Kid-Flash while there was an older Flash and then the older Flash died and now Kid-Flash is the Flash.

There is a striking, elegant simplicity to Barry Allen. He's a police forensic scientist who was struck by lightning and became the Flash. The police scientist aspect adds an instantly distinctive character trait; he's recognizably a CSI-type character, but he can also step into the superhero world. The fact that he's a scientist can inform his characterization in an immediate way and the TV show has instantly tapped into showing that Barry is an analytical problem-solver.

I really enjoyed the FLASH pilot. It instantly recreated the dreamy, whimsical tone of Barry's appearance in ARROW and did a nice job adding new context to Barry's origin story last year by revealing that Barry had seen some other friends and done some other things before walking into his lab. I had my doubts about the show doing the origin in 44-minutes, but it worked beautifully with Barry's delight and joy in his powers and the quick and efficient way in which the supporting cast were introduced. We've already seen Caitlin and Cisco on ARROW, but Harrison Wells has an amazing sense of mystery and authority thanks to sharp scripting and Tom Cavanagh's commanding screen presence.

I also really like Danielle Panabaker, whom I haven't seen in anything in nine years since SKY HIGH and it's a little disturbing how she hasn't aged much. She brought a wounded, scientific air to Caitlin Snow and she has some really subtle but charming chemistry with Barry. To put it simply: she's interested in him for his body. He's a fascinating scientific specimen that could be the key to all mysteries of biology and physics and I feel like fans are (not necessarily wrongly) interpreting it as a potential source of sexual tension. I also think it may be due to how in the 90s series, the Flash's scientific consultant was Dr. Tina McGee (Amanda Pays) and while they were never officially a couple, there was some intense sexual tension between the two that neither Barry nor Tina would ever act upon (ah, the 90s). McGee's husband died before the series began, just as Snow lost her fiance. Interestingly, Pays will be playing a version of Dr. McGee in this new show.

I'm finding Cisco a little vague, but Carlos Valdes bounces off the cast very well. Grant Gustin's Barry really works for me. The character isn't much like Barry Allen in the comics, but Gustin plays the archetype well. He's a scientist. An observer of the universe who has always felt out of place. A thoughtful analyst who is astonished to discover that when struck by a crisis, he rises to the occasion. An instinctively compassionate and heroic soul because he suffered a terrible loss as a child that widened his heart rather than hardening it. This is always how I've seen Quinn, of course. ;-)


ARROW. It was a good opening. ARROW has become a really terrific product; it's a grand distillation of the superhero format into CW-level television and I really enjoyed every scene, particularly how Brandon Routh's Ray Palmer was very gracious in defeat towards Felicity, although having triumphed over Oliver, maybe he could afford to be gracious. I was a little disappointed that the show seemed so determined to declare the Oliver/Felicity pairing over rather than simply letting it play out. I was also a little disappointed that after Season 2 spent so much time building up Sarah Lance, she's abruptly and shockingly killed off. It really bothered me and I hope that the show has a good story mapped out in the consequences and isn't just doing it for shock value.

Re: Arrow / The Flash

Don't have a ton of time, but I wanted to scattershoot some of my SPOILERY thoughts on the Arrow premiere.

- I like that they're moving towards Star City.  Starling City never sounded right to me.
- I like Brandon Routh.  I even sorta liked Brandon Routh as Superman.  I saw Brandon Routh at a comic-con, and he seems like a genuine guy who really wants to be a great actor.  I liked what I saw out of Ray Palmer.  Is it confirmed that he'll ever become The Atom?
- I like the dynamics of the team.  I might've liked it better if Sara had stuck around, but I guess they're going to eventually put that mantle on Laurel.  Which I still don't buy.  Roy's costume is cooler than Oliver's though.
- So I don't like The Arrow as a name.  It still bothers me that they won't just go all the way to Green Arrow, especially since we already went through this with the Red-Blue-Blur to Blur to Superman business.  Except Oliver is already Green Arrow.  Is this going to be some sort of Star City like transformation?  Is his name an arc?
- So when I was googling whether or not Green Arrow was a possibility (at the end of the episode, after Oliver calls himself that, which means even he embraced it a bit), I stumbled upon a review that spoiled Sara's death.  And that made me mad because I would've genuinely been shocked by it.  I didn't even have to read the review - the spoiler was in the title at the very top of my news feed.  That made me mad.
- Is her death a stunt?  I don't think so.  I think Sara's arc was finished, and this had to be done to propel the story forward.
- Barry appearing was cool, and I assume that scene corresponds with Barry and Oliver meeting in the Flash Pilot (which I haven't finished - or even got to that scene yet).  But while I'm okay with Oliver on The Flash, I'm not really okay with Flash on Arrow.  It poses too many problems. 

I know she didn't know he was the Flash (yet), but if this episode happened after it did, couldn't Felicity have called Barry to get rid of the bomb?  Even with 30-something seconds left, she calls Barry, he speeds to Star(ling) City, grabs the bomb, and speeds to Antarctica where it blows up in an empty glacier or something?

Re: Arrow / The Flash

If you watch the Flash pilot, the timeline issues are addressed.

Re: Arrow / The Flash

Sara's death was spoiled for me too, and it pissed me off. On Facebook, there was a news article with the spoiler right in the title. In today's day and age where people DVR everything, you'd think they could at least wait a week before talking openly about it.

That aside, I agree that her arc had played out as much as it could. They can't have two Canary characters, and finding out what happened to Sara will probably push Laurel toward that goal. As long as the death means something, I guess I'm okay with it. Still, maybe they could have injured her to the point where she couldn't do the job or something like that, rather than kill her. I like the character.

Will Laurel tell her father about Sarah's death, or will she let him go on believing that she's out there somewhere? If he finds out that she is dead, it will quite probably kill him.

I hope that this is the end of the Olicity thing. I don't think they need to go there. I would have preferred that they didn't go as far as they did. Not every male and female who love each other need to be romantic. I am fine with some flirting or whatever, but I don't need to see endless tearful scenes in the barn while Lifehouse plays in the background.

I'm curious to see where they go with Diggle's story. If he can't be in the field, what will they do with him? Use him to train Roy and Laurel? I guess we'll find out. Maybe he can lead the Suicide Squad full time (spin off!)

I liked Ray, and I thought that it was funny that they had him meeting Felicity in what pretty much amounts to a Buy More. I don't know if they're going to make him the Atom, but it does seem like he might be able to get things rolling again with the company and the city, and that might be cool to see. Oliver can save them from bad guys, but the city itself can still crumble without help.

I do think that Green Arrow is an arc. I saw something where they talked about how it was an evolution of the name, from the Hood/the Vigilante to the Arrow, to Green Arrow. Right now, I think Oliver is still struggling to become the final version of this person. Maybe one he learns how to balance his life, that new name will come about.

I don't know that it would be easy for the Flash to carry that much C4 away. He's not super strong, right? So maybe he could run fast enough to build momentum or something... I don't know. Barry might have known how to disarm the bomb, but I don't know that his speed would have really helped in any way there.

So far, so good for this season. I like where they have the characters going.

Re: Arrow / The Flash

I am really sorry to hear Sara's death was spoiled for you guys. I haven't really been following news of the show and I never read reviews before watching, so I was completely shocked and horrified. It was like Arturo's death -- I didn't know it was coming -- except that ARROW was very effective in showing the horror and loss. I was really sad to see this, but there is a certain truth to how abrupt, sudden, unfair and completely random Sara's death seemed to be. That's how it is in real life.

I'm fine with Felicity and Oliver having a complicated relationship. I guess I just felt it odd to see the idea of them dating raised and dropped in a single episode. But it's fine. The romance stuff of ARROW is not really the main draw for me. 

Shipping can be very peculiar -- I'm observing with great amusement how Barry Allen and Caitlin Snow developed a huge fan following before the pilot episode even aired. I'm not for or against it -- but I really liked the relationship between Barry Allen and Dr. Tina McGee in the 90s series. They weren't lovers, but they were comrades. It was a very interesting partnership; the blue-collar criminologist and the elegant biologist. At times, Dr. McGee was Barry's teacher in what his powers meant and how they could be used, at times, Barry was the one to inspire McGee with his heroism and sacrificing nature. They were intensely attracted to each other but also completely professional because they were devoted to what the Flash meant to Central City and that was what held them together. It'd be cool to see something as complex in the new show.

Re: Arrow / The Flash

Sara's death was really well done. She seemed to know the person who killed her and it caught her completely off guard. And the fall was nice... When people fall off of a roof on TV it can look super fake. The way she hit the dumpster and then the ground like a sack of potatoes really sold the death.

I kinda wish that we had time for more of a reaction from Laurel. In TV, you sometimes have to cut corners with these moments. Katie played the scene well. But if I were directing, I would have loved to see an arc for that reaction. From having no idea what was going on, to startled shock, to the realization of what it means. But that could have been too drawn out. I don't know.

Sarah Michelle Gellar had the chance to play that reaction on Buffy, but then again, they got to do a whole episode that was nothing but the reaction to an unexpected death.

Re: Arrow / The Flash

Yeah, it's funny how much faster TV gets. In the 90s, it took 90 minutes for Barry Allen to become the Flash. Today, it takes 44 -- and I think the Pilot could've worked even without anything in ARROW to set it up. (Oliver would probably be replaced with Barry's father to give Barry reassurance that the lightning bolt chose him.) The quick shot of Katie's reaction felt so rapid that it fed into my shock. It could've been longer, but I was fine with the shorthand.

Re: Arrow / The Flash

I watched Flash.  It could be a pretty cool series.  The speed effects look cool, but I do think that things were a bit rushed.  There wasn't a whole lot of Barry learning to use his powers.  I know his powers are more basic than Clark's powers on Smallville, but the bullet time stuff should be more disorienting.  After two sorta-incidents, he pretty much was already doing fine. 

But I think the cast of characters is good, and I'm looking forward to seeing some of the stuff they teased (Grodd, the future newspaper, etc).  I also thought it was weird, especially after watching Arrow first, how they cut out a lot of Oliver's conversation with Barry.  I'd have loved to have seen Oliver's reaction to how fast Barry can run.  Maybe even some sort of test like in the teaser promo.

Y'all noticed the Wayne Tech reference in the future newspaper, right?  That means Bruce Wayne exists in this universe.  I know we'll never get Batman on the show, but it could potentially open up the doors for Nightwing or more Batman villains.


Regarding Arrow (this one-thread thing might be hard to keep up with) - I think Sara's death was handled about as well as it could be.  If they're planning on making Laurel a superhero, they're going to need to start her on that path soon.  I'm not sold on that, but it seems to be the direction they're going.

Re: Arrow / The Flash

People are really down on Laurel and they say that it's stupid that she could just turn around and become a superhero overnight. I find that strange, because it hasn't happened yet and they're already criticizing the execution. Roy has been more or less training to be Arsenal since season 1, and he had just now reached a point where he is allowed to go out in the field and provide backup to Oliver. He's still a long way off from being a hero on his own. So why would people think that Laurel would just put on the costume and be Canary?

I do think it's fitting though that she would be called Black Canary, since black is a color of mourning and if Laurel does become that character, it would be a way of honoring her sister.

Should we establish a rule of naming which show we're talking about up front? That way we won't see spoilers here before we watch one of the shows.

Re: Arrow / The Flash

Full version of the rooftop convo between Ollie and Barry here:

Re: Arrow / The Flash

I was rewatching "Three Ghosts" (the Barry Allen two-parter in Season 2 of ARROW) and noticed -- ARROW offers a completely contradictory account of Barry's day leading up to the lightning striking him. ARROW has Barry in Starling City for most of the day, making it back to Central too late to get tickets to the opening of the particle accelerator. FLASH has Barry in Central for most of the day, already has tickets to the event, and while Iris asks Barry about his trip to Starling City, it seems to have taken place on the previous day (if not earlier). Curiously, Barry also attempts to share his feelings for Iris with her in THE FLASH. But in ARROW, Barry had feelings towards Felicity. ARROW has Barry going into the police crime lab while on the phone with Felicity, telling her he'd like to go out with her some time. FLASH replays the same sequence except there's no conversation with Felicity; Barry goes into the crime lab wiping his bloody nose.

If you hammer these events into any kind of sequential order, you could take it that Barry was in Starling City on the day prior to the lab accident. He got back into town and immediately started running to get to the crime scene (late). He already had tickets for the particle accelerator and intended to go with Iris. He tried to stop Iris' mugger, ended up at the police station and missing the opening. He saw Iris making eyes at Detective Thawne. At that point, he excused himself and called Felicity, hoping to cushion his disappointment with the affection of another girl, and rather than tell her his attendance at the opening was interrupted by his would-be girlfriend getting mugged, he lied and said he failed to get tickets because he didn't want her to know about Iris. He walked into his crime lab during this conversation. At this point, his nose started bleeding again and he hurried out of his lab to the washroom to get some paper towel to staunch the bloodflow. He then returned to his crime lab, entering through the door for the second time, and then he was struck by lightning.

No amount of timeline rejiggering can explain how the newspaper clippings seen on Barry's wall of the weird in ARROW don't match the ones in FLASH or why his parents' photos are shown on the clippings in FLASH but are absent in ARROW. ;-)

I have to say, this isn't exactly flattering to Barry that he was flirting with Felicity when he had plans to tell Iris how he felt and then used Felicity as his fallback and second choice.

Re: Arrow / The Flash

Its weird that it didn't match up considering the two shows are working so closely together.  I know some stuff could've changed between Arrow and the Flash premiere, but they should've had most of their ducks in a row.  I did think it was weird that they decided to go with a love angle with Felicity if she wasn't going to spin off with him.  What was the point in that?  Clearly Barry was going to have is own love interest(s) on the show, and it's weird to do something like that knowing they couldn't be together.

Maybe it pushed the Oliver/Felicity storyline, but even that's a means to an end.

Re: Arrow / The Flash

It didn't match up because originally, the plan was that ARROW's Season 2, Episode 19 would have Barry wake up from his coma, discover his powers, put on the costume and become The Flash. Then plans changed: it was decided that Barry would become The Flash in his own TV pilot, not in an episode of ARROW. The writers were now required to write an opening story that would be independent of ARROW for anyone who might not have seen the Barry Allen two-parter, and they needed a sequence of events to introduce the supporting cast for THE FLASH. Felicity and Barry's romance was probably meant to be further addressed in Episode 19.

Re: Arrow / The Flash

I think that the Felicity issue will be addressed very soon, with the planned crossovers.

Re: Arrow / The Flash

It was always meant to spin-off though, right?  I do remember that Barry was supposed to come back later in the season, but I thought it was all still in line with spinning him off.

So in the original plan, Barry was going to spin-off having already started as Flash?  They almost-certainly still would've needed to have introduced his origin on the new show.

That being said, Barry is young.  Even if he's madly in love with someone else, he could easily change course and go after the hot nerdy blonde that's throwing herself at him.  Happens all the time.

Re: Arrow / The Flash

And to be fair, Felicity went for Barry when she has spent the past couple of years swooning over someone else as well.

Re: Arrow / The Flash

Slider_Quinn21 wrote:

It was always meant to spin-off though, right?  I do remember that Barry was supposed to come back later in the season, but I thought it was all still in line with spinning him off.

The idea was that the Flash episode would be a backdoor pilot with the potential to go to series or, at the very least, allow the Flash to be a recurring guest character on ARROW. If picked up for a series, THE FLASH would have likely opened with a quick recap of Barry's origin story on ARROW.