I listened to Zicree's first video (mostly just a review of the S2 premiere). I agree with just about everything he said.
Did people expect a full-fledged comedy? That seems silly. I mean, maybe they wanted Galaxy Quest. What the Orville is has never confused me. But it's live ratings are dropping. So who knows what it's fate will be.
From my memory, it was marketed more of a comedy than anything else.
I feel like it even played a bit more for comedy than this shows, but it seems like every line of dialogue in that trailer is a joke or played for laughs. I'm guessing Fox marketing assumed that they were going for the same audience as Family Guy?
I think a lot of people were probably turned off by Seth MacFarlane himself and the way the show was marketed. I think people expected a comedy (I, for example, was expecting a 30-minute show). And while there are comedic aspects, I don't think the comedy is the main part of it.
I said it before, and I still think it's true. It wouldn't take a ton of work to twist the Orville into the Trek universe. And a lot of the twisting would simply be cosmetic (Union becomes Federation in both dialogue and insignia/etc). There are more pop culture references in the Orville, but even Discovery had modern music in one of the episodes. You could even explain that in-universe with the fact that guys like Ed and Gordon (the "jokesters" of the ship) are essentially Union/Federation rejects.
I'll have to watch the videos later, but I think the Orville is the more "Trek" of the two. I find they're usually the ones dealing with morality and character, and Discovery is more about Sci-Fi action. I feel like the characters are stronger and more rounded on the Orville, which I think is a testament to how seriously Seth MacFarlane and company are treating the show. It doesn't even seem to be going for comedy that much, anymore. It's still fairly funny, but there are a lot of moments of genuine joy on the show.
I haven't either, but I heard it was good.
They released a TV-spot length trailer for Shazam, and I'm impressed with what I've seen so far. I'd really like the Cavill cameo to be in there because I think it fits really well, and it could be a re-introduction of the DCEU going forward.
I actually like the theory that Starfleet changes their uniforms so that people can identify the year, within a handful of years, if a Starfleet crewman is ever stranded in some sort of time travel situation
And I could see that explanation working. I halfway expected Pike to be bringing the Discovery's new uniforms, but maybe that will happen later.
I liked the premiere too, but I don't understand the uniforms. Is the Enterprise the only ship that is using the new uniforms? Why does Pike go back to the "old" uniform by the end?
I'm still upset that CBS shot down the anthology aspect. Even if they didn't want to, I still think the Discovery should've returned back from the Mirror Universe in a post-DS9 Federation. That way it's still a continuation like CBS wanted and yet it's a brand new show, essentially.
Introducing a new side of Spock, having this whole time where Pike is the captain of the Discovery, etc seems like a bad excuse to add to a time period that I think has been fully fleshed out. I get that modern writers want a chance to play with classic toyboxes, but Trek's obsession with the TOS time period and Wars' obsession with the A New Hope time period is, honestly, really bothersome to me. Let's see something new.
Last night's episode had some weird conflict. It eventually worked its way out, but I thought the whole thing was bizarre for the first 90%.
Cisco is healed from his encounter with Cicada, but he sorta liked not having his powers and the troubles that resulted from that. He wants to be a normal person, and he thinks he might have found a way to "cure" people of their metahuman abilities. He's excited, and Caitlin hates hit. She (and then Killer Frost) decide that he's making a huge decision, and Killer Frost ruins his work. Caitlin likes having Killer Frost around and doesn't want her cured. She points out that metahuman abilities (including Barry's and their own) have done a lot of good. Cisco counters that a ton of people have powers because of their mistake, and that a cure could easily correct a lot of lives that could be created.
Eventually, they agree that they can work on a cure, but they won't force it on anyone. Which neither of them wanted. Their whole conflict was resolved because they actually had a conversation.
It was so bizarre. Cisco, at no point, is talking about creating a cure and then forcing anyone to use it. Caitlin simply assumes that either Cisco is going to pour the cure in the water supply or go door do door hunting and curing metahumans. It's mostly her fault for jumping to conclusions, but Cisco could've easily talked her down by talking about how it'd still be a choice.
It was a very lazy conflict just for the sake of a conflict. I do like the idea of Cisco potentially curing his powers. I also think a metahuman cure could end up being a powerful storyline. If it were possible to cure powers, would every supervillain have their powers removed immediately by the police? Would that be legal? Would people on Team Flash push for that to be used against villains that are in the pipeline (is anyone being held in the pipeline at this point?).
Could we, at some point, see CCPD armed with "cure weapons" like in X-Men: The Last Stand?
Good to know that as the United States faces judicial lunacy, gerrymandering, the collapse of its foreign relations, a government shutdown with federal workers expected to labour for free, a supposed bid for border 'security' that has TSA agents working for nothing, and an investigation into the president being compromised by Russian intelligence -- well, we can always count on Americans to zero in on the dumbest and most irrelevant piece of trivia they can possibly find and make it their central area of focus.
To be fair, I think we deal with Trump in our own ways. Some hate, some laugh, some love, some tolerate. Most of the stuff that you listed is, obviously, more important than hamburgers. I don't think anyone, even the crazy people on the fringe of either side, would have much to say against that.
But, at the end of the day, it's the news of the day. The outrage of the day. Not only is it something that is relateable, but it's something that's new. Not only are the other issues you spoke about more complicated as issues, their solutions are further away and more complicated themselves. The Mueller investigation is a big deal to people on both sides, but what am I, a normal American supposed to do about it on a daily basis? I'm doing the same thing that Congress is doing - waiting until the investigation is over. Is Trump compromised? I don't know. And until I know (or, at least, think I know), then there's nothing I can do. Same thing with the government shutdown. I can write letters to my congressmen or drive down to the state capitol to make a big fuss about it, but what is that going to accomplish? Another letter or email he won't read, or a protest that won't do any good.
There's this thought that things happen because we let them happen. When, in reality, we're all so separated from our government because things happen because the people we voted for let it happen. But we don't have 365 elections a year. We speak when we can and rely on those we elect to speak for us the rest of the time.
It isn't because we don't care. It's just that there's not much one person can do.
Hmmm, I didn't know all that about fast food. I figured he'd be someone who'd want fancy food (albeit cooked incorrectly ). Count me in the group that didn't know the man like I thought I did.
Were there really people that couldn't tell the difference between DS9 and Voyager?
I do agree that if they're going to have different shows on at the same time, they should be covering something unique or different. But I felt like that's essentially what DS9 and VOY were doing?
Re: the fast food at the White House for Clemson.
I think the whole thing is bizarre, but it isn't bizarre for the reason that everyone says. Yes, Trump's tweet was dumb and his spelling of "hamburger" inexcusable. And his ridiculous assertion that he paid for it (even if he did) just goes to the whole egomaniac part of him.
What's weird about it, from my perspective, is that fast food seems so against the Trump image of class and quality. People have pointed out that Trump owns a hotel not far from the White House with a 5-star chef who could've easily come over and cooked something for the players. Getting a bag of cold burgers and setting them up in the White House seems very low rent and very opposite the image that Trump tries to create for himself. Granted, I know that he eats well done steaks with ketchup so his idea of fine dining still isn't the same as most people's, but I'm talking more about his intended mage than his reality.
That being said, I'm trying to picture how this would've been interpreted under another president. Wouldn't it have been perceived as "cool" if Obama did it? He's giving these hungry football players pounds of the kinds of food that college kids eat - burgers and pizza. Wouldn't it be considered "folksy" if Bush did it? When W is real hungry and wants a nice meal, he still goes through the drive-thru! Wasn't it endearing when Bill Clinton ran into a McDonalds during the campaign trail to eat with and talk with regular Americans enjoying some fast food?
Am I reading the stories I'm reading wrong? Are they actually agreeing with me and laughing at how un-Trump it seems to send some intern to grab 300 burgers? Or is this just all part of the Trump dogpile no matter what he does?
Gotham is the most fun show on television. Period. I watch a lot of shows while I do something else, but Gotham has my eyes glued most of the time.
And while I still do not buy David Mazouz as a future Batman (I think he's just too small, frame-wise), I think he does about as well as you can. I think he has the personality down, and I think he has very Batman-like eyes. I think, like with the rest of the show, I just need to accept that this version of Batman is going to be 5'8, and it'll work like the rest of the show.
Because, obviously, this version of Batman will be very different. Gordon will know that Bruce is Batman, maybe from the very beginning. Selina will know. There's a decent chance most of the GCPD will know. I think some of the villains will know. And, yet, it really won't matter. Instead of the billionaire playboy cover, I think Bruce will be a recluse (like he was in the Dark Knight Rises). And, honestly, I think this version of Alfred will be in the field with him...if only for a few years. Maybe even as the first Robin?
I hope the show doesn't try too hard to pivot the show to match the comics. Because what they've created is its own thing. And it's great.
If they'd done Legends as an anthology series, a season of Batwoman would work great. It'd also be a place for a truncated season of Arrow if Oliver is truly going to die in his deal with the Monitor (he won't).
That Cyborg story is interesting. I wonder how many random plot holes on TV are the result of a last-second actor issue.
Oh well. I guess I'll hope that, during season 3, Frank was hopelessly off-grid with no way of knowing how Karen was doing, and that her guest spot on Season 2 will go some way to filling in his absence. I do agree that the season is stronger from a character perspective if he's gone. But it doesn't make it make any more sense.
Yeah. I mean I understand. I think, obviously, the way you wrote it works. Karen calls Frank - maybe he rescues them from the church in some big Punisher vs. FBI action sequence. But then, instead of a nice Karen/Matt character moment, it's the Punisher saving the day on Matt's show. You'd have to do something the way you wrote it, where Frank cedes the action to Matt, or it doesn't work for a one-off character.
If I didn't go that way, I'd use the two film crews and merge the scripts. I'd say that the shows are taking place simultaneously, and I'd reference the events of the other on both. Since I don't know what happens on Punisher season 2, I'll have to speculate. Maybe Jigsaw has driven Frank to some sort of safe house. In Daredevil, you have Karen call Frank. She apologizes for calling him, but he's her last hope. There's nowhere to turn and Kingpin is going to kill her. She expects it to work, but Frank declines. He comes off like a jerk. Like, of course, he won't come. What does she mean to him? Why would he risk his life for her? Click.
In the Punisher, around episode 10, Frank gets that call. He's hidden away. If he moves, he's dead. And if he's dead, Karen's dead. He can't leave. So he pretends like he doesn't care. Because pushing away people is what he's good at.
Episode 13, Frank shows up to the hotel, and he sees that Karen is okay. That Matt is protecting her from the rooftop. She handled herself.
You don't need Bernthal for Daredevil or Woll for the Punisher. Have the individual crews shoot it, and have it be a sort of loose end on Daredevil that gets resolved on Punisher. Because the only people who would care would be watching both.
But you're probably right. Don't reference it and no one asks the question. Because, realistically, Frank would risk anything to save her. Since he doesn't show up, he's either saved her in the background or, for Daredevil season 3, he simply doesn't exist.
Batwoman is getting a pilot.
I wonder how many of the Batman characters they'd have access to. I'm sure Kate Kane has her own Rogues' Gallery, but she's going to be living in a Gotham where all of Batman's villains have been established to exist. If none of them show up, it's going to be weird.
I'd love for them to be able to play around with Dick Grayson, Barbara Gordon, Tim Drake, Damien Wayne, Jason Todd, etc. I don't remember - did Elseworlds imply/confirm that Alfred and/or Gordon was dead? Or am I getting my DC shows confused?
Yeah, and I get that these shared universes can't always be guest starring and spinning off and crossing over. But that's why I think they need to get creative with dialogue. There are a hundred reasons why Frank wouldn't appear, and they just need one of them. You could do 90% of those reasons without Jon Bernthal showing up. Have a scene where Karen is on the phone with Frank and tells him to stay away. Or, heck, have Frank be her escape plan...she just needs to take care of one more thing first (which leads her to the church and the rest of the season). Have her try Frank and he can't answer (cliffhanger to Frank season 2 to some time when he's away or in danger). Maybe the phone she tries for him doesn't work (he gets a new phone).
It doesn't have to be about securing the actor or coordinating production between two shows. It should just be about the writers getting creative enough to come up with a reason why they wouldn't come help. Because, yes, Daredevil could've used the rest of the Defenders' help to take on Fisk....but this was something personal to him. He wouldn't want their help even if they were asking to help. That can be left alone.
But if you have a character who is a) desperate b) helpless c) in imminent mortal danger and d) established to be very close friends with someone nearby who would absolutely have the means and the reason to help, I think they owe it to the audience to explain. Even if the explanation is weak or flimsy, they needed something.
Of course, I didn't even think of it...you had to...so maybe they didn't need anything
I don't know if I want to pay for DC Universe. Although I'm intrigued by what I've seen of Titans.
How did you watch the 3?
But I'm pretty sure it's been confirmed that Karen shows up in Punisher season 2. So they coordinated somewhat.
They didn't even need Frank to show up. I read an article about it (wondering if there might've been some explanation from the writers), and they made a good point. All the attacks on Karen were very public - attacking her work or in the church or after her little press conference. At the very least, Frank would've known about it. Now maybe he was unavailable, but they have the sort of relationship that I would assume Frank would move mountains to help her.
I think a lot of these things (MCU, Arrowverse, etc) can be written off with a line of dialogue. The article said that maybe Karen could've sent Frank an email and told him she could handle it. And then maybe he would've stayed away out of respect for her wishes. But when she's got nowhere to go and no one to turn to, the idea that she just doesn't consider Frank was just a little bizarre. I know it would've been a bit of a Deus Ex Machina, but a Punisher fight scene could've been the icing on top of a great season 3.
The only issue I had with Season 3 – there were points where it didn't make sense for Karen to be facing danger alone when she should and would have called her heavily armed and deeply devoted friend Frank Castle for help. .
This is all I can think of since I read this. Where the Hell was Frank?
Ha, I'll be honest, I didn't see it. But I feel like you see things through some really unique eyes, especially when it comes to seeing Sliders in everything. It's not something I'd really even consider most of the time - the only time I can even think I thought something like that was when I thought a certain episode of the Orville felt exactly like an episode of Sliders.
That being said, I think if I force myself to think about it, it does have a certain truth to it. Quinn and Ethan are both leaders of a team that has operated successfully for a very long time despite very low odds of success. They're both comfortable in situations where they're clearly in over their heads, and they seem to thrive on unpredictable and dangerous situations. I also think there's a certain sense of fate to both characters - I think both of them would've been much happier living a quiet life with a family, but they were both sorta thrust into situations where they had to save the world again and again.
If I were to work it out through fanfiction (as I like to do), I'd think that Quinn never invented Sliding. He had a promising career in something like engineering when 9/11 happened. Feeling a duty to his country and the world, he decides to enlist. After a tour of duty, he's approached by someone in the CIA. Much like Jack Ryan (in the Amazon series), Quinn thrives in an analyst-level role, but he keeps finding himself in the field. Realizing that he has the skills and the ability to save lives, he steers into that path. Along the way, he makes connections with certain people (a communications and demolitions expert, a computer hacker, another CIA field agent, an MI6 operative, etc) that can help him on various missions. Despite a belief in himself and his skills, Quinn always feels comfortable working as part of a team. While he knows he's putting them in danger, he feels secure knowing that he has their back and they have his.
Something like that could easily swerve Quinn into an Ethan-like role. But only via something like Jack Ryan
I watched season 3 of Daredevil over Christmas break. I'm really bummed that this show was cancelled. It's been the one whose quality has remained fairly high throughout, and it might be the only one that can consistently support 13 episodes. Not only that, I think Wilson Fisk is one of the best villains, not just from these series but from the MCU as a whole. I don't know how much of the Netflix stuff is worth preserving if this world is truly dead, but I think Cox as Daredevil and D'onofrio as Fisk are definitely worth keeping around, even if they're watered down into an MCU-acceptable version.
I just really liked the whole season. Matt is broken from his experience and sees no value in Matt Murdock. His friends are both hoping he's alive and wanting to move on with their lives. Fisk gives the appearance of being broken and desperate to save Vanessa. And I thought all the moves and turns in the season were earned and made sense. I really liked the addition of Ray Nadeem, although I wish that things had turned out better for him.
The Fisk stuff was legitimately terrifying and disturbing. I loved how they used the imagery of the penthouse to really send home how much power he'd accumulated. He goes from a barren room with nothing, wearing his prison jumpsuits to an elegantly decorated room wearing his trademark suits. He goes from being watched to watching them. He goes from being yelled at by guys like Poindexter and other agents to having them call him sir and take his orders. Again, it was a bit disturbing and made me worry about the system in the same way that Matt does. I'm sure stuff like this happens all the time....maybe not to this extent but to a large-enough extent. Fisk felt so powerful, so untouchable, and even going into the last episode, it seemed like there was no hope.
I was a little disappointed that we never saw Matt back in the red suit, but I understand why they didn't. And unlike the other Netflix shows, which feel dragged out - they actually only told half of Poindexter's story - as he now can truly become Bullseye. I thought he was another 3-dimensional character who made a lot of sense. I really loved the scene where Fisk is overlooking Dex's childhood memories. That was effective.
All in all, I really liked the season. I'd have loved to see where they were going for season 4, and I'm sad we won't get these characters again.
To be fair, I think there's an explanation for this. Kara has been on Earth for a really long time. The immigrant label works for her because she was raised on Krypton but she essentially grew up (out of childhood) on Earth. She moved here and now identifies as an Earthling (if not a human). Just like an immigrant might move to another country, start a life and family there, and then identify as a citizen of that country. I've met immigrants who did things the right way, earned their citizenship, and they had just as much of a right to call themselves American as I do. And since they worked so hard for it, the American part of them was very exciting. Learning English, learning our history...it was all very exciting to them and they wanted to grow that part of themselves.
Then there's the nativeborn American that finds out, through DNA testing or ancestral studies, that they're 99% Polish or something. So they study up on their ancestors, learn about the culture and food and history, and maybe even travel to visit that place.
The first person isn't giving up their old ways and histories. They don't stop caring about or relating to their old country, but they're just excited about a new place and the promise it brings. The second person isn't abandoning their American citizenship or trying to become a citizen of Poland. But they found out something about them that was pretty neat and unique and different, and they just want to get to know that a bit more.
Kara grew up on Krypton, but she'd also know all the warts about it. Earth is new and exciting without some of those warts. She knows the people there are good and wants to be good like them. Clark grew up on Earth but he found out this cool part about himself and wants to learn about it.
And I think some of the stuff Superman says in public is supposed to throw people off the track that he's lived here the whole time. It makes the Clark Kent identity a little safer if people don't think Superman has been living among them for so long. He says "your language" in the same way that Clark tells Lois in Man of Steel that "on my world, it means hope."
Yeah, I don't think they'd have time for politics. No matter what's happening in the world, they've always got bigger fish to fry. Global warming isn't a concern when Michael wants to end the world right now. That would definitely skew any of their thoughts on any real-world issues, all of which they'd consider to be minor and petty compared to what they're dealing with.
But if I can humor myself for a while, I'm considering a world where Sam and Dean exist but monsters do not. Sam might've gone to college, but I don't see him as a lawyer. Honestly, I think he'd probably be better off as a teacher, but I could also see him in medicine of some sort. I think he'd want to do something where he's helping mold or save lives. I don't see him in a court room at all. I could see Sam getting into politics. Volunteering for people he believes in, trying to stir up support and votes for those people. I think he'd skew liberal, caring about issues with the planet and animals.
Dean would be mostly apolitical. But I think he's more resistant to change, and I think he'd lean conservative. He'd be someone who'd support Republicans but would be sorta lost in modern politics. I think he'd probably have gone into the army for a stint and then come back to be a police officer or federal agent. He'd find harmony in the order of that, and he'd live off the thrill of danger and saving lives.
I'm now picturing an alternate world where Sam and Dean both live in a small town in Kansas. Dean is either the Sheriff or a deputy, and Sam is the medical examiner. They solve crimes together.
I do think the mustache was necessary for Cavill. He's a dark haired white guy. Tom Cruise is a dark haired white guy. I need to be able to tell them apart when the camera is flying around them; I need to know who's fighting who.
Ha besides the fact that Cavill is 6'1 and Cruise is 5'7?
And mild spoilers for Mission Impossible in this DC Movie Universe thread:
What's crazy is that the mustache works for a villainous character. And I remember reading early on that Cavill had been hired to play the villain in the movie, or at the very least, in connection to his roles in each film during the mustache debate. And yet, in the movie, he's revealed to be a villain about 2/3 of the way out. It's a twist in the film that he's a bad guy. So I thought it was odd that it was mentioned so much, and it sorta threw off my watching of the movie because I knew he was a bad guy the whole time. There were times, of course, that I thought maybe I'd misread something. But while those movies aren't incredibly subtle with their telegraphing of twists like that, I just found the whole situation bizarre.
And I get that it's a business and I understand that Cavill is signing on to do a different movie for a different studio. Honestly, I don't blame anyone for any of it. I just find the whole thing a bit bizarre. Reshoots happen all the time for movies like Justice League, and for Cavill to think that he was done and grow a huge mustache just seems odd to me. You'd think that someone at WB would be keeping up with the major star in their billion-dollar franchise to make sure he would be ready in case they needed him back. Particularly when this movie was such a big deal for the studio.
And after this thing and the bizarre wig that Kate Mara wore in Fantastic Four reshoots, I wonder if studios need to insure themselves against stuff like that for when inevitable reshoots happen. Maybe a "you can do this next movie but don't change your appearance until X date" clause. Or even go back to some sort of exclusivity deal where you can only make movies for the one studio while you're headlining a multi-billion dollar franchise.
The funny thing is that this actually almost happened at Marvel first during their big team-up movie. Chris Evans had a big beard when they shot the last-minute shwarma post-credits scene for the Avengers. It's why Cap is covering his face with his glove. We've probably brought this up before, but I just think it's funny to think about.
I saw Mission Impossible: Fallout finally, and I just wanted to bring back up how silly the whole mustache thing was. I know they might've wanted to separate Cavill from Superman by giving him some facial hair, but the mustache was such a weird move in today's society where mustaches are sorta out. Cavill pulls it off, and I thought he was pretty great in the movie. But I'd still love to know if this was Cavill's decision (if so, it was very shortsighted) or if it was Cruise/McQuarrie's decision (in which case, it's weird and maybe a little vindictive?)
I think I'm somewhere in the middle. I do like the version of Superman that they've created - just because I think he's fun and happy and helpful. As a supporting character, I think ireactions is right - he's a great fit.
Although I also think Informant is right on some things. I do think they make him look weaker/smaller so that Kara can be the hero. I think some of that is Clark saying things to make Kara feel better, unless this version of Superman is actually significantly weaker than other versions of the character. But some of the feminism stuff does get old when they hammer it in - I think Kara and Clark being on equal footing would be a pretty strong feminist statement - having him constantly say how much stronger Lois and Kara are does make him look like a bit of a pushover.
There was an episode in season one of Supergirl where Superman flies in and saves the day when Kara needed help. He never made an actual appearance, and he was this mysterious figure who would send Kara emails and instant messages to assure her that she's doing a great job. I actually sorta liked that version of the character - who didn't show up because he wanted Kara to be her own person.
I'm now picturing a Deus Ex Machina version of Clark on Supergirl, played by someone the size of the Rock. He'd be this almost-exclusively background, almost mythological character. We'd never see him fight or do anything, but we'd know from Superman lore and from stories on the show that he's everything we think he is. And when he compliments Kara or even asks her for help, it's a huge thing for her.
In fact, maybe never show him in the suit. Every appearance is as Clark in his civilian clothes, and Superman is this figure that only exists in our imaginations.
That's actually an interesting dilemma.
For some reason, now I'm trying to figure out where Dean sits politically. I'm fairly certain Sam would be a progressive liberal, but I'm having trouble with Dean. I think he'd be a conservative, but he's definitely not a MAGA conservative. He might be a bit more of a John Kasich republican?
(I don't mean to get this political - Lauren's talk about modern imagery got me to #metoo and wondering how the boys would think about modern topics).
You can quit watching if you want, of course, but I don't think your negativity has any effect on the rest of us. I like reading your comments, positive or negative
That's pretty interesting. Maybe it's only because I've only been familiar with post-S3 JRD quotes, but I always figured that JRD was completely on board with Tracy and his vision.
Outside of simply making Arturo the star and doing less comedy, do we know what JRD would've done differently? It seems like you're saying he wanted them to do more "Last Days" stuff where Arturo saves the world? Just episodes where the Sliders arrive, and Arturo uses his massive science brain to save the day?
That's all really interesting. Good work!
I hadn't heard that JRD was causing problems because he thought he was the star. I'd always thought the problems were when the show became dumb - I didn't realize his issues went back as far as season 2.
I thought, overall, it was fine. I did agree with the podcast that I posted in the sense that it did feel like a setup more than a complete story. Some quick thoughts:
- The Flash suit did look terrible on Amell. I wonder if they thought it looked terrible too. If they did, it wouldn't have been out of the realm of possibility to put him in an older version of the suit that might've looked better (if it is, indeed, the chin strap).
- I was actually surprised by the Deegan-as-Superman reveal. I thought he'd just created an evil Superman to get rid of Oliver and Barry. I also liked his "My name is John Deegan...." intro. I also liked the Barry-as-Oliver one for the Arrow episode. I was just sad that we didn't get a Oliver-as-Barry intro. I feel like they could've restructured the opening to allow that.
- So did Deegan change anything else the first time around besides swapping Oliver and Barry? Was there any other indication that anything else was different? Because it seems weird that Deegan, who seemed to have some (at least to him) altruistic goals thought that he could fix the world by swapping the Flash and Green Arrow. He didn't really seem like he knew that'd happen, and it definitely didn't seem like he had a plan for them if he did. Were Deegan's changes only in his own little world at Arkham, and Oliver/Barry were side-effects? Or maybe tampering from the Monitor, since they're the only ones who remember their true selves?
- Was Deegan responsible for Bruce Wayne leaving? If so, is that still canon?
- So did the Monitor kill Earth 90 Barry? Or did he just send him back to his world?
- Did the Monitor not consider it cheating that Earth 1 used multiple heroes from another Earth to defeat Deegan? If this was a test of Earth 1, they really didn't win on their own.
- I really like this version of Superman, despite what that podcast guy thought. I don't think he honestly doesn't think that the world needs him or that Kara is so much stronger than him. Throughout the series, especially in Season One, he was acting as a guide and mentor. I think he's still trying to build her up, more than anything. It's a little weird that she just accepts it when he says stuff like that. You'd think she'd have a more humble reaction, but maybe she knows what he's doing and doesn't want to make him feel bad.
- How did James Olsen end up on Earth 1? Deegan only knew about Kara and Clark because they fought Amazo. James never showed up. Does this mean that James exists on Earth 1, or does it not really mean anything?
- Same question but with Alex.
- Crisis on Infinite Earths - I wonder if this is, partly, the Arrowverse realizing that they're not going to make it to 2024. Because the Flash is still, *this season* working off the newspaper clipping from Season One. Is this going to be separate from that? Or is the timeline getting moved up, possibly as a result of something Nora is going to do? If so, the newspaper hasn't updated (like it did with Iris' name).
And I'm interested in seeing what happens with Oliver. We were teased with TF's thought in Part 3 - both Barry and Kara were supposed to die, and they're the ones who die in the original Crisis. Obviously Oliver made some sort of deal with the Monitor to die in their place - but does that mean that Arrow won't get renewed? Or would they really be able to kill off Oliver mid-season, possibly on an episode of a different series? If they announce that Arrow is going to only be 11 episodes next season, won't that be a pretty big tip-off that something is going to happen? Or would they actually try and do a final half-season of Arrow without Oliver on it?
(I'm guessing that Oliver did make a deal, but like Sam and Dean do all the time, he'll either get out with some other consequences or he'll die and then come back somehow).
If this were a few years ago, I'd have faith that there was going to be a unified plan from the whole Arrowverse team. But I'm a little worried in recent seasons that there isn't as much control at the top as there used to be.
It isn't really in the MCU, but it's a Marvel movie.
Spider-Man: Into the Spider-Verse is legitimately great. I absolutely loved it.
I stumbled onto this today....is this you, Informant?!!?
but it's more likely that this was the result of Dr. John Deegan scrambling reality with the Book of Destiny and causing such havoc that even the Time Bureau couldn't detect or contain the damage.
I hadn't thought of this. I'm cool with this explanation and forgive the show.
Watched Part 2 of Elseworlds.
I'm still not hugely into this (again, probably more because I would've done it differently - which I know I need to let go), but I think it's been a pretty fun series. After their Smallville Easter Eggs, it was fun to get a couple of fun ones with the 90s Flash. The biggest one, IMO, was 90s Barry thinking that John was a Green Lantern. They've teased that for a while, and I'd love to get a mini-arc on that. I don't know if they could consistently do a convincing Green Lantern on the CW, but I'd love to see them try. Maybe John gets the ring, uses it a bit, and then has to pass it on to someone else when he realizes he can't leave Earth full time (and bring in someone like a Guy Gardner for a cameo).
There were also a TON of fun Gotham-related Easter Eggs. I sorta like the idea that Bruce has been gone and left Kate Kane in charge. I also like that it appears that Wayne Enterprises is down the tubes (joining both Queen Industries and PalmerTech) in his absence. The fun little nods to all the villains in Arkham was cool, although I felt the Nora Fries cameo was a bit of a waste. I guess they took what they could get and got Amell's wife on the show.
I also liked the nods to Batman of Earth 38. When they kept talking about Batman, I was surprised that Kara wasn't speaking up since she knows who he is. But then she did. She's pretty good at keeping secrets, I guess.
Looking forward to part 3.
I never thought this would happen.
What the heck is this show? I had a lot of fun with "Legends of To-meow-meow" and it's *insanely* clear that the actors on the show had fun with it. This is a show that, essentially, has no rules now. They don't really exist in the Arrowverse anymore, to the point where Nate writes off calls from Barry, Oliver, and Kara as "the annual crossover." They do time travel still because it gives them the excuse to dress up in fun costumes and occasionally cast someone as a famous historical figure.
But even inside their own universe....what is this show? The Time Bureau is now an official place with an official building that appears to sanctioned by the American government and food couriers can simply walk into. And yet the Time Bureau is now tasked with hunting down and capturing magical creatures. Their A-Team is now the Legends, although I'm not sure we ever see a B-Team anymore (when, last year, the Legends were the Z-Team).
Not only that....I don't really understand what the Time Bureau is even capable of. Legends of To-meow-meow revolves around Charlie and Constantine going back and altering the timeline to try and have their cake (Des lives, Charlie is a shapeshifter) and eat it too. They do the one thing they're not supposed to do (rule 1 of time travel is you don't interfere with times in your own life), and it ends up with all kinds of wacky consequences.
But if the Time Bureau cannot detect changes to the timeline (so they can go back and fix them), then what the heck is their purpose? What are all those people running around doing, and if they're all handling magical creatures, what were they doing before the magical creatures took over their lives? Didn't the Time Masters exist outside the timeline so that they could sense when the timeline was altered?
This season has made it perfectly clear that this show 1) doesn't matter in the grander scheme of the Arrowverse and so 2) zaniness is their calling card and they can play it whenever they want. And within the confines of a 42-minute show, I think it's a blast.
But what is it? Is it supposed to be anything concrete, or is it just what it is whenever it's on?
I'm fairly excited about Avengers: Endgame. I know Informant doesn't love the character stuff in these movies, but I actually think they've done a decent job of building these characters into people I care about. I really felt for Hawkeye when he showed up (knowing what happened to him), and I felt the emotions for guys like Captain America and Thor (who might be the living person most responsible for Thanos winning) who were obviously living with guilt.
I hope they pull a Star Wars and don't ruin the plot in the theaters. I'm really interested in seeing the various ways they're going to go with this. The Russos are hitting 1.000 as far as I'm concerned, and I'm confident they'll be able to do it again.
To be fair, I enjoy all the shows. I'm not hate-watching any of them. I still think it's a little bizarre that Supergirl has stayed on Earth 38, but maybe some of this Crisis-level stuff will end with them all on one merged Earth. At times, Supergirl doesn't really feel like a part of the Arrowverse, and I think that's strange, if only because I think the worlds mesh really well when they're combined.
I think Flash is fine. The problem is that they've really boxed themselves in a few places. Barry and Iris are together so they're not really able to work with that angle anymore. Caitlin's character has been muddled so much that I'm not 100% what's up with her and Killer Frost (at this point, there doesn't seem to be much, if any, difference in the "separate" characters). Cisco is fun but they don't do a ton with him, especially now that Gypsy is gone, and any other romance plot will probably follow a similar line. We all feel like the Tom Cavanaugh situation isn't sustainable. And with villains, they have this weird line they walk where they don't really know how to do action sequences with the Flash. If it's a speed villain, the "action sequences" end up being CGI races. If it's a non-speed villain, the plan has either been to power-up the guy (DeVoe) or power down the heroes (Cicada).
But even then, I don't think Season Five has really established why Cicada is a threat. He's literally wounded, and he doesn't have a backstory that indicates that he'd be an incredible fighter. I don't seen any reason why Oliver couldn't beat him fairly easily. I'm also not 100% sure why Barry didn't drag Cicada 1000 miles away once his spear was taken away. Everyone just sorta stood around until he got it back, even when they knew it was coming back. The Killer Frost solution is good for the characterization on the show, but in story, to not even try Oliver is weird. And now with the crossover, to not use Kara or Clark is weird (as their powers are, also, not related to Dark Matter).
I agree with your thoughts on Arrow, Legends, and Supergirl. They're all watchable and fun, if not deep or outstanding in any way.
I only watched the first part of the crossover, but I thought it was interesting. I still wish that it wasn't a body-switching thing. I feel like, for some reason, they want this to be impactful. There were still references to Cicada and Oliver going to prison and Kara quitting the DEO, and it seems like this "darkness in Barry" is something that might play out at some point down the line. Also, I don't know if this is intentional, but it seems that Iris really doesn't like Oliver (if not outright hates him). Is that something that's been played with before?
But, honestly, I don't think these episodes even really need to be in continuity. It's why I was really hoping for some sort of "Elseworld" story where Oliver's parents never died and he ended up with speed. And maybe instead of ending up with the Wests, Barry ends up an orphan who ends up on Lian Yu. If they wanted to do Batwoman stuff, have him end up with the Waynes (they adopt Barry after their son Bruce was killed by a gunman in an alley).
I think that way, they wouldn't have to worry about any sort of continuity, and they could've had a lot of fun with it. They could've even played around with some of the other characters. Imagine Cisco as Speedy, Caitlin as a Black Canary, etc. Then imagine Felicity as Killer Frost, Diggle as Vibe. Maybe you bring back Lance in the Joe role, or you bring back Merlyn as the Wells/Thawne role.
That's sorta the fun of Elseworlds stories to me. So the Monitor changes everything, and either Supergirl comes to investigate, or you throw her into the mix too (maybe it's Kara who was adopted by the Waynes - heck, maybe she's the Batwoman).
The way they did it was a bit lazy, I think. Still fun. But lazy.
Although it was basically all forgiven when I heard "Somebody saaaaaaaaaavvvvveeee me" with that overhead shot of Smallville and the Kent Farm. They get it.
I know they said it's "our" Roy, but I'm still very confident that it's Earth 2.
And did you guys notice that Smallville's Green Arrow showed up in the Earth 90 scene? If they're going to introduce a version of Barry Allen that doesn't look like Grant Gustin, I'd love a Smallville crossover.
Well, I think making a 3+ hour movie is a little ambitious. People didn't have a problem with the length of BvS in the theaters, but they might've had an issue if it was an hour longer. The problem is that he made a movie that was so dense and complicated that it couldn't be cut without chopping out huge chunks of plot and story. And I think the main reason for that was that the story itself was so ambitious. Between Man of Steel and Justice League, Snyder had to introduce *so many* key characters, while still following through with enough stuff to make it feel like a genuine sequel.
To be fair, I have no idea if the ambition of it was Snyder's or the studio's. Because if I were the Kevin Feige of the DCEU and it was 2013, I might've done a traditional Man of Steel sequel with Luthor as the villain and Bruce Wayne as a side character. Maybe end that movie with the idea that Bruce is going to go after Superman. Then you do the Batman v Superman movie, giving time in that movie to introduce Batman's world and maybe Wonder Woman. So while Man of Steel 2 would've been from Superman's perspective, Batman v Superman would've been from Batman's. You'd get the fight, Luthor's revenge, and death of Superman. Then you do Justice League as two movies. So two BvS movies and two Justice League movies (which, I think was the original plan).
Well, it's been argued that "Lois is the key" from Flash in BvS is what led Lois to be his "big gun" in Justice League. Presumably, it was decided in the apocalypse that Superman *did* need to be there to defeat Steppenwolf, but that they needed to bring in Lois to make it work. Or maybe they brought her in too late, Superman killed her, and then once Superman snapped out of it on his own, he blamed Bruce and humanity for letting that happen.
But you're right, that's probably not the intention.
The whole situation kinda sucks because of bad timing. Justice League began production two weeks after BvS hit theaters. The studio had butchered BvS and wanted a movie closer to 150 minutes than 210 minutes. Zack Snyder had to begin filming with a 3+ hour movie script, very shortly after audiences were complaining about BvS being incoherent and too long. His only option at that point would've been to butcher his own script to make it work or film what he has and have the studio butcher it for him. At that point, he was stuck.
If he'd had more time, maybe he could've found a 2-hour version of his movie that the studio would've been okay with. Maybe he could've had time to make the movie lighter in tone while still working through his vision. Instead, he barreled on forward, hoping that audiences or the studio would come around, and they didn't.
I don't like that huge chunks of the larger plan for what was going on were thrown out the window, making it look like sloppy writing/directing, when it was really the studio's fault that things went off track and character arcs weren't properly executed.
I'm curious to what you're referring to. Like I said, I fell into a hole the other day of the Snyder cut stuff, and it doesn't seem like a ton of overall stuff was altered. There was stuff at the beginning of the movie that fleshed out Barry, Arthur and Victor. Lois came to the Superman fight on her own instead of being a weapon of Batman (and apparently had her own journalism arc like in BvS). There's the black suit stuff, but there's also been still images of Snyder working with Cavill in the blue suit so I'm wondering if that was just an easter egg. There's the mother box possibly corrupting Victor, but I don't know if that would've also been a minor thing in the third act. There was a final scene with Arthur and Mera, and it looks like the final scene with Bruce and Clark might've taken place somewhere else...but that doesn't mean the meat of the scene would've changed.
As ireactions said, I don't know if the movie was altered that much. It was definitely butchered a bit, but like the Ultimate Cut of BVS, it would've fleshed out the movie but not *drastically alter* it.
That being said, there's a chance that the stuff that was shot was already from an altered vision, and the only one who knows that would be Snyder. There was definitely going to be two movies, and it ended up being two. But I don't think they crammed two movies into two hours...I'm assuming Justice League ends in the same place it was supposed to end. I think Snyder's plan was a 9-hour trilogy (BVS/JL1/JL2).
I don't remember much about it, but I definitely had more fun with the movie than I thought. Then, after I was done with it, I had a long-ish drive and listened to a podcast about it where the hosts were ripping it apart. And, honestly, I didn't have a great counter for a lot of their concerns. I think, like BvS, there was a decent amount of characterization that got left on the cutting room floor. I did think there was a decent amount of pivoting to 1) make Superman seem more heroic to the world than he actually was and 2) soften Bruce a bit. The fact that Bruce is completely motivated by a dream he had where Superman was killing everyone, and he's the one spearheading the plan to bring him back to life...is nuts. The fact that Bruce uses the same logic (if there's even a 1% chance that....) to both rationalize killing Superman and then to bring him back is nuts.
But one of the podcasters kept insisting that, despite everything, he had fun with it. And I did too.
Well one thing we're not considering....
Agents of SHIELD has already been renewed for Season 7. If Marvel TV wanted the Defenders to continue, they could hypothetically add them (even just as guest stars) to that show with some time to possibly introduce the characters at the end of the upcoming season 6.
That being said, that might be a HARD change. Those two universes don't seem to mesh at all.
They did it again!
This season, Flash and Supergirl both have middle-aged male villains that were direct witnesses to previous finales and faced collateral damage to their families due to the hero's actions. And now they have complete hatred of a certain group, dedicating themselves to destroying that group while wearing the mask they used at their blue-collar jobs. Both had flashback episodes inserting themselves into previous action sequences to make them more 3-dimensional to the audience.
Yeah but nothing I've seen makes it seem like it would be drastically different. Some flashback scenes with Cyborg. A little more with Flash (saving Iris). Lois does a bit more investigation, and she shows up to help Clark on her own (instead of with Batman). There's a bit with the black suit (but I've seen no indication that he'd wear it at any point). And maybe Steppenwolf would use the mother boxes to either turn Cyborg or Superman (again).
It'd be like the Ultimate Edition vs the regular edition - a bit more background and character stuff but not a huge departure from the plot.
There's also the matter of....how would they reshoot 30% of the movie? I don't really know how the Donner stuff worked, and I'm sure in 20 years, they'll be able to CGI whoever they want back to their Justice League performance age and recreate whatever they want. But people are demanding the movie now....wouldn't it take months, millions of dollars, and getting the cast back together to even make that feasible?