Before I get into replies, I will say that rather than one big issue, this conversation really breaks down into different issues:
1. What do we do about the flow of illegal immigrants that continue to come into our country?
2. What do we do about those illegal immigrants who are already here?
3. What do we do about the children who had no say in the matter?
4. What do we do about the people who had no choice but to be brought here illegally, but have grown up here and know no other life?
All valid questions. Hopefully we can work on resolving these issues as a nation once the fake outrage over the photogenic children has passed.
The entire Trump/Miller/Kelly/Sessions approach is heavy handed and flat out un-American verging on heinous.
In what way?
Was it also heinous when Obama did it?
If so, why didn't you care then?
1. The current system has been broken for decades. Trump administration is now deporting people who have been here for decades. Some are even DOCTORS. These are people who are contributing to society, but have no good way to rectify their situation. Right wing Republicans have refused EVERY attempt at remedies for the immigration system, because solving this problem would take away their dog whistle.
Even when the the Dreamer option was on the table, many of these people chose to remain undocumented. So, I don't necessarily buy the idea that they're trapped, with no good way to remedy the situation.
However, this is one of the problems that I listed above, and it needs to be addressed. I was never moved to another country as a child, but I did move from one state/culture to another state/culture and I definitely have no desire to be shipped back to my native state. Fine place to visit, but... no.
We do need a solution to this, but I honestly don't think that the politicians want to "solve" this issue any more than they want to "solve" healthcare or gun violence. These issues are their bread and butter, so it works out better for them if people are mad and fighting with each other.
What solution can there be? I don't know. It probably wouldn't work out 100% for either side. Even if we gave those people who really did grow up here (not those who made the trip on their own as teenagers) a chance to stay and become citizens, there would be a cost to them. The parents/relatives who brought them here illegally would have to face the consequences of their actions, and that would probably mean being shipped back to their native country. We would also have to define a clear cutoff point for this solution, because we'd be inviting more illegal aliens to try the same thing forever if we didn't.
But yeah. It's a discussion that needs to be had, and it needs to be had rationally.
2. Family separation is 100% the cause of Trump's team's zero tolerance policy, begun only months ago. Rather than simply deport the families, they have sought to PUNISH them. Repeat, PUNISH them. Again, this is draconian and unnecessary.
You're attributing a motive here, and you need to understand that the image that you're paining comes from your own head and not reality. Donald Trump isn't sitting in the Oval Office, laughing maniacally and getting off to the thought of suffering children. Real life is really never that cartoonish... or... it's rarely that cartoonish.
The fact is, if an American citizen committed a federal crime and was arrested, they would be separated from their children. We don't lock children up for the crimes of their parents. However, in the case of illegal immigrants, that situation is made more difficult by the fact that the kids coming over have nowhere to go once their parents are arrested.
Trump signed an executive order, to end the separation of families. He did exactly what was being asked of him. Yet this action is still being waved around as proof of how evil he is. This is an example of how fake the outrage really is. If Obama put an end to abortion when he was President, pro-lifers would have been dancing in the streets. That's normally what happens when you achieve a goal that you really care about. But the little kids were never the goal here, so there is no celebration.
But you know, gotta keep the base of racist crazies happy.
You have the potential to be better than this comment.
3. The incarceration is seemingly undefined, as there is a major lack of immigration attorneys and judges. Another remedy that Trump could fix, but HIRING more of them. He has steadfastly refused.
One of the many problems that have to be addressed in a system that no politician has felt a need to fix for decades.
And so here we are, a President who despises poor immigrants,
(the ones that he doesn't marry)
the ones who come and do work we don't want to do.
Wait. Americans don't want to be doctors?
The fact is, that the "they do the work that we don't want to do" line is a slogan, not a fact. What it really translates into is that the people who hire them want to hire people who will work for less than minimum wage, who won't expect benefits, and who will be less likely to report abusive working environments.
This is relevant to the conversation that we're having about the migrant children, because some of the people doing the work that we don't want to do are actually children, who are brought here and forced into labor by people who pretend to be their loving parents.
http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/20 … ckers.html
And the "work that we don't want to do" issue also includes handing our children over to child molesters.
The one's who often flee peril, only to find more of it here.
The world sucks. In Canada or the UK, you can be jailed and fined for saying the wrong thing, all because they don't actually have freedom of speech. In many cases, we do what we can to help the people from places where they face true systemic oppression and violence. However, even in those cases, there is a proper channel to go through.
He wants merit based... Okay, so on the application for visa, should we simply be asking how good you are at cleaning plates, picking apples, mowing lawns, or painting houses?
It's a valid question, to ask what they will bring to the table and how they will contribute to our nation. We're not a homeless shelter (though we have many of those, and even many in other countries, because we're a nation that gives back). Other countries do the same thing. Why is this only a problem when it's the US, and when the president has an R next to his name?
I live in an area with lots of immigrants.
I live in an area that used to be Mexico!
He's complicit with a Republican party that has no real interest in fixing the system, because it would take away a major issue they need to scream about to get people to vote for them. Because beyond that, their platform is decidedly anti-working class.
First of all, if you can show me the numbers on how the working class is suffering under Trump, I'm all ears.
Second, if you can tell me what the democrat president or congress did to fix the system, I'm all ears. In fact, when Nancy Pelosi toured one of the facilities housing migrant children back in 2014, she urged people not to politicize those kids. (she also raised the good point about many of the kids coming over with health issues that pose a threat to others)
So again I ask the very simple question: if this situation is such an outrage and such a crime against humanity, why didn't any of you give a f--- four years ago?
"Open Borders" doesn't mean abandoning all border policy. It means we don't require visas. Show your Mexican driver's license for an instant background check and you can enter. The same thing we do for people coming from Canada, or Western Europe, or Japan, or Australia, or any of our other allied nations.
Not exactly. They don't just show up with their driver's licence and get into the country. In order to enter the US, visitors with a foreign passport need to obtain a visa. There are a lot of different types of visas, so it's pretty specific and the government wants to know what they're doing here.
You are correct that we do have a special arrangement with some countries where citizens can get a visa waiver. However, they do still need to apply for that waiver and get approved. Which I guess is different than getting a visa, but it's not exactly showing up with a driver's license and getting in.
Why isn't Mexico a part of this program? Don't know. Could be because they have a corrupt government, or all of the violence and abuse that people talk about when discussing reasons for people to come to the US illegally.
That said, Mexicans can still obtain a visa and visit the country.
There's no evidence to suggest more people would try to come if we made entry visa-less. The people who want to come are coming anyway.
The same could be said for most laws and regulations, I suspect. Would more people commit murder if it weren't illegal? Would more people shoplift? Do people not do those things because they respect the law or fear punishment, or because they're just good people?
Food for thought. I'll skip the experimentation process though.
People are sneaking over because we've made it too difficult and expensive to come legally. We created the problem with laws that only apply to one ethnic group of people.
In what way does it only apply to one ethnic group?
My brother has a friend who is Canadian. Despite living in different countries, they're not too far from each other, so when she was leaving her country to go overseas for a few months, she was going to store some stuff at his house and get a new place to live when she returned.
She was turned away at the border, because it looked like the was planning to move here.
On a more "facts and numbers" level, in July of 2017, the AP released an article all about the panic now felt by Europeans who were in the US illegally. While they'd been skating by for years, the crackdown on illegal immigrants was being felt in their circles.
http://fox2now.com/2017/07/11/us-deport … scal-year/
So rest assured, Trump's evil extends to everyone. The numbers of deported europeans is still lower than those who come over our southern border, naturally. But they do exist.
There are plenty of people here now who don't respect our nation or our laws or our citizens. Look how many we have proudly carrying a flag that represented an outright rebellion against the United States.
Are you suggesting that Trump deport everyone who doesn't seem American enough, even if they're citizens?!
But seriously, actual citizens are a problem that we have to deal with. There are plenty of bad ones, but at least they're our problem to deal with. We probably don't need to borrow any more from our neighbors.
It's not our responsibility? Tell Jeff Sessions to put away the Bible he's never read, because the Parable of the Faithful Servant says just the opposite. It says to whom much is given, much is required. President Bush used that quote in his 2007 State of the Union. It's easy to say screw those poor Hispanic people running away from violence, I got mine. But it's not a Christian sentiment and until very recently it wasn't an American sentiment.
I'm not debating religion. I'm debating politics.
There are plenty of situations whereby you would not be so quick to apply that philosophy. It's great to feed the hungry, but do you want the hungry to break into your home and take what they want? I don't think so.
Charity and theft are not the same thing. It's not our duty as Christians to ignore laws.
We didn't turn away the Jews escaping Germany during the depression. What makes things so different now when we have the "greatest economy in the history of America"?
Are you seriously asking what the difference is between Jews escaping Nazi Germany and Mexicans sneaking into our country? Do you seriously have no concept of "hard life" versus "genocide"?
Anyone is free to apply for asylum. There are a number of places where they can do this in Mexico and other countries, but asylum is granted for very specific reasons. If they go through the process formally and legally, I don't think anyone has a real problem with them. If they come into our country, demanding that they have the right to take what's not theirs to take, people tend to have a problem.
And to answer your question about the economy of America... that economy will collapse if we let in anyone and everyone who wants to come into the country. No nation should do that!