Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

If Republicans are drummed out of government, they made it happen. They have the White House and the Senate, yet they are incapable of crisis response, allowing a pandemic to shatter their economy and populace and choosing an inept delusional as their leader. They have made it quite clear for four years that despite holding government, they are unable to govern and have no interest in governance.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

ireactions wrote:

If Republicans are drummed out of government, they made it happen. They have the White House and the Senate, yet they are incapable of crisis response, allowing a pandemic to shatter their economy and populace and choosing an inept delusional as their leader. They have made it quite clear for four years that despite holding government, they are unable to govern and have no interest in governance.

Agreed 100%.  But I don't think a one-party system is much better.  I also don't think such a thing would last very long.  I think it'll be more of a rebrand to get away from the Trump stuff.

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Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Ironically I assumed one device that Dems could use to pressure McConnell on Ginsberg seat was the passage of the budget.  Well, he went ahead and rejected it today so the Govt is headed for a shut down anyway!  What an absolute TOOL.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

I don't find fault with Republicans for filling a vacant Supreme Court seat. Americans put them in power. If Americans don't want Republicans to fill Supreme Court seats, they shouldn't elect Republicans to the Senate. To be fair, the Senate isn't elected by a popular vote, but there's enough people voting McConnell and his cronies into office to get them there. And yes, Republicans are being hypocritical to refuse to hold a vote on Obama's pick during an election year only to proceed with Trump's during an election year, but they had the power and authority to do both.

It will be bad for women, bad for Obamacare and bad for Democrats especially if there's a contested election, but the purpose of a political party is to take every opportunity to acquire power to accomplish their ends. Why would anyone other than Joe Biden expect any Republican to do anything any differently? They aren't violating their oaths of office or breaking the law. They are breaking their own self-stated professions of norms and values, but that doesn't surprise me.

Ultimately, it is up to Democrats to win this election by uncontestable margins and rebalance the Supreme Court afterwards. And Democrats could have won in 2016 if they'd chosen a candidate who, fairly or not, was so disliked by so many Americans that voters who disliked both Clinton and Trump went with Trump in sufficient numbers for Trump to win. Democrats can win in 2020 by noting that the incumbent president has been such a disaster that a blandly inoffensive centrist like Joe Biden is someone even conservatives could tolerate to end this nightmare.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Some “what if” scenarios being gamed out:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/opinion/ … uxbndlbing

They all happen in some reality.  Will the roulette ball land in our slot?  It will be war.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

When it comes to America, I'm of a military mindset that has been carefully honed, crafted and refined through many years of reading CAPTAIN AMERICA comic books (and only through many years of reading CAPTAIN AMERICA comic books).

Ultimately, I believe that America will do the right thing, that Americans are a society of peace, decency, fairness and that their hearts are earnest and true. That they will unite against cynicism, intolerance, ignorance and injustice. That they will overcome all the problems facing the American Dream and make it an American reality. And I have been proven right consistently throughout history (for 50 per cent of the time).

I keep an open mind to God and can't claim to believe in an omnipotent deity. But I do believe in people. It is in the nature of Republicans to seize any opening for power within their means and rules (and sometimes well outside those means and rules). It is in the nature of Americans to recognize that they need new leadership to meet the moment and to commit wholly and fully to rebuilding a broken world. I have faith.

1,457 (edited by Slider_Quinn21 2020-09-24 12:51:22)

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

TemporalFlux wrote:

Some “what if” scenarios being gamed out:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/opinion/ … uxbndlbing

They all happen in some reality.  Will the roulette ball land in our slot?  It will be war.

Again, I think we need to discuss what "war" is.  It can be a "civil war" but it probably can't be a civil war like the last one we had.  This isn't North vs South or East vs West or anything like that.  There are Trump people and Biden people in every state.  In the "battleground states", it's close to 50/50.  So what would "war" even look like?  Neighbors shooting their neighbors with the wrong sign?  Trump might control the military, but he doesn't control every person in the military.  He can order the military to bomb blue cities, but they don't have to listen.  Same with the national guard.  Same with the police.  So I don't know who the "war" would be between.  There have to be "sides" to a war, and there aren't easily-distinguished sides in this war.  You can't look at someone and know who they voted for.

If you're talking about riots, then yeah.  I could see that either way.  If Trump throws out legit ballots to win, there will be protests and riots.  If Trump tries to throw out legit ballots to win and anyone stops him, there will be protests and ballots.

But there have been protests this whole time and there hasn't been anything like war.  Trump people have protested.  Biden people have protested.  And they've gone (mostly) peacefully.

Is there a chance that lone wolves could bring assault weapons to protests like we saw with that one kid?  And that people could die?  Sure.  But while I know there are people that are devoted to Trump, I haven't seen anyone willing to die for him.  I don't know if a 63-year-old retired housewife who watches OAN is going to take up arms and suicide bomb a DNC building.

If you're talking about political war....then absolutely.  And at that point, it depends on how much the Republicans are willing to "die" for Trump.  If they commit a crime for him and it doesn't work, they go to jail.  He can't protect them and might not protect them even if he wins.  All these scenarios assume that Republicans are willing to burn the country down to protect Donald Trump.  And while they were happy to vote to keep him in office, throwing out democracy for him is something completely different.  I'm happy to vote for Joe Biden, but I'm not going to fight for him.  I certainly wouldn't go to jail for him or die for him.

And it all depends on how things go.  Which is why it is 100% imperative that every Democrat vote early and, if in any way possible, vote in person.  Mail-in ballots have already been denied for administrative reasons, and there's plenty of time to re-send.  I'm going to vote as soon as they open in person and will encourage everyone I know to do so.

People should assume that every vote by mail is either going to count for Trump or be thrown out.

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Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

I'd rather not think about a looming street war that might be on the horizon.  Trump's campaign cannot legally procure state legislatures to "ignore" the popular vote and draft electors as they see fit.  The Constitution DID allow this, but EVERY state and D.C. have laws on the books to prohibit such a farce.  They would have to draft new legislation and get the governors to sign it, and good luck on any of that happening.  Specifically Pennsylvania, no shot.  Trump's plan is to declare victory on November 3, and then start screaming about throwing out ballots that haven't been counted yet.  Again, good luck with that initiative because there's very few elected officials (even GOP) who are anxious to get into that fight.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

The New York Times got Trump's tax returns. Eighteen years' worth. He's paid no income tax in 10 of the last 15 years. He paid $750 USD in 2016 and the same again in 2017. While in previous years, he paid an overall total of $95 million, he recovered 94.1 million back via federal, state and local refunds.

In addition, Trump filed losses on all of his hotels, golf courses and resorts, losing $315 million since 2000 on his golf courses alone. Before the presidency, Trump had been financing his lifestyle with loans that led to $521 million in debt and with his mortages against various properties, that number is likely closer to $1.1 billion, most of it due by 2022.

He was paid over $400 million from his TV show. Trump could have put his earnings into mutual funds, real estate, technology, gold -- but he instead put his earnings into the money-losing vanity businesses that bore his name. He borrowed heavily to build his hotels, resorts and golf courses which have not earned the revenue to show a profit or repay his debtors. His businesses are now being kept afloat through more borrowed sums and billing taxpayers for government use of these facilities.

His debt is why he's so desperate to remain president.

Trump's debt-drowned, cash-poor enterprises make him the worst businessman in American history with loss after loss from 1962 to today. He has brought the same ineptitude to running America straight into the ground.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/202 … taxes.html

This will make, I think, absolutely no difference for Trump's supporters. Trumpists know their cult leader is a fraud and a sham; they just thought the fraud might favour them and the sham might support them too and now they're in too deep to allow themselves to think otherwise.

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Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Trump's supporters are irrelevant, this kind of story might sway some people on the fence, but it's really more of the same.  The irony is that Trump's use of Net Operating Loss, depreciation, and other means to lower his tax burden are not unique to him.  Most of the 1% do this, avoiding staggering $$$ of income taxes that the rest of us have to pay for.  There's not really anything illegal done, although he signed two bills (his 2018 tax cut and the CARES act earlier this year) which allow people like him to further use NOL to skip taxes basically indefinitely.  The system is a joke.

The source of illegality would be if Trump inflated his assets to obtain loans, which is another story.  However, while many probably laughed at details such as writing off Ivanka's makeup artist or Trump's hair stylist, those meager write-offs are highly questionable, and often what investigators can hammer you on for tax evasion.

Lastly, the best part of the story is that it's egg on Trump's face, which will drive him totally up the wall.  He flips out when his manhood, wealth, and intelligence are mocked.

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Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Yeah, the NYT story is more of an indictment of the US tax code than Trump.  It also demonstrates why raising income tax rates is bad policy.  The burden falls primarily on the middle class because the wealthy don't rely on wages and have many more options to obfuscate their income.  You'd need a wealth tax, specifically a land value tax, to get the fat cats to pay their share.

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Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Well like I said, the oddball write-offs may seem innocuous but plenty of people have been hit with big time fines/bills from the IRS for them.  Will that happen with him in office is another story. 

To me the bigger story is the fact that his accountants didn't simply write-off these massive losses for tax evasion.  Nope, Trump had in fact LOST hundreds of millions of dollars on incredibly moronic investments.  He spent 100's of millions on golf courses to feed his ego, but they don't make much money.  He has hundreds of millions in loans that are coming due within the next few years.  How is this idiot paying them?  From what?  His businesses lose money like a waterfall. 

While he's still President, it's unlikely the IRS, or more importantly, his creditors will come after him.  And then you see why he's willing to lie, cheat, and steal this election.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

pilight wrote:

Yeah, the NYT story is more of an indictment of the US tax code than Trump.  It also demonstrates why raising income tax rates is bad policy.  The burden falls primarily on the middle class because the wealthy don't rely on wages and have many more options to obfuscate their income.  You'd need a wealth tax, specifically a land value tax, to get the fat cats to pay their share.

I mean good luck getting the wealthy to agree to anything.  We've made everyone in Congress millionaires, and there's no incentive to change the tax code.  They make enough money, for themselves and the country, doing it this way.  That genie is way, way out of the bottle.

I will not be watching the debates.  Zero point.  There's nothing Trump or Biden could do or say that will change how I'm voting October 13.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Joe Biden has, to my astonishment, come to represent the America that I believe in. An America that progressives, centrists and conservatives could conceivably compromise upon in agreement. (The perfect compromise is where nobody is happy.) I want to see Biden confront Trump with the destruction he has wrought, the betrayal he has enacted upon those whom he swore to protect, the reality that Trump is a failed businessman, a traitor to his nation, a disaster as world leader and an inept fool who has no business leading a marching band never mind a country. I want Trump to blanch onstage as he realizes he can't land a punch on Biden, that Biden sees right through his projection. I want his orange tan to go purple with frustration as he realizes he can't insult Biden into submission, can't maneuver a non-existent national dislike against Biden and can't sustain his cult act for much longer. I want Trump to face the country outside his institutionalized cocoon. I want Trump to face America. I want this more than I want a SLIDERS reboot.

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Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

I'm going to attempt a sane commentary on the complete INSANE event I witnessed tonight....Trump is (if you give any credit to polling) trailing. Did he help his case with undecided voters? I cannot see how. I felt many of his comebacks were actually pretty good (though again they are dubious), but that's not what viewers will take away. They'll take away only that this was a complete fiasco of chaos. Trump didn't allow the viewer to let what he was saying sink in, before railing on something else, arguing with Chris Wallace. If I had to grade it, Trump "won" on COVID response, and law and order, but lost the 2nd half on white supremacy, ballots, and frankly Biden whacked him good on the Hunter attacks. Al Gore took a dive in polls for being a weirdo then a robot, now Trump will be lampooned as a lunatic. The reality is the country lost. Completely a mess, and now people are saying cancel future debates.

PS: If there was a drug test pre-debate, Trump would have surely lost because he must have taken a suitcase of speed.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

I ended up watching the debate.  What a disaster.

I don't know if Biden won, but he held his own against Trump's bullying.  Trump was obviously trying to get the old man confused and either get him angry or confused.  Neither worked.  That's a win.

The "stand by" comment is all people will remember, and it's an insane gaffe for Trump to make.  I think Trump is right that if he peels back from Bernie too much, he could lose some of the ultra-left. But I don't see why Trump feels like he has to specifically pander to the ultra-right.  You gotta think there are some Trump voters (not his base but his fringe voters) who would be turned off by that, and you gotta think that's a greater number than the Proud Boys he'd lose even if he openly condemned them.

Trump was already losing and even his base didn't think he did particularly well last night.  That's a really, really bad sign for him.  He lost voters last night.  He'll lose voters once the Supreme Court isn't an issue.  Are there 62 million Proud Boys?

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

My favorite quip so far:

https://mobile.twitter.com/SethMacFarla … 7898347520

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Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Trump's strategy at this point is to stop voting.  Delay the mail, suppress the vote via GOP Governors, mail ballots are fraud, not counting after Nov. 3rd.  And now last night.  He does not want people to vote.  This is what autocrats do, the ones who then claim they won a "vote" by 90 points, because the populace is too afraid to vote.  All we can hope is that he is in fact defeated, because I truly cannot imagine what this maniac will do if given another 4 years.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

I was very wrong last time, but I think if it came down to breaking the law for Donald Trump, Republicans will fold.  Trump's cronies are all criminals, but duly elected officials are going to struggle with burning the whole system down for Donald Trump.  He doesn't have the support in the party to unilaterally change the way we do elections, and I think even Republicans would struggle with that.  I think if the election is very close, you'd get them to side with him.  But these are people that are out for their own skin.  They aren't out for Donald's.  They've seen what proximity to Trump has done for Lindsey Graham and even Mitch McConnell.  And if you're talking about people like Ted Cruz, I think he'll be a hypocrite to get a conservative court, but he wants to be president.  I think he'll be a good little soldier until it suits him not to.  And Trump losing in 2020 makes him much more likely to be the nominee in 2024.

I think Republicans will try to steal the election.  I think they'll be hypocritical and immoral.  But I think they'd stop at undemocratic or illegal.  I think.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Trump's openings to steal the election depend on the results being close, allowing him to contest the results. But even if the polls are as off as they were in 2016, the results won't be close at all.

**

I wouldn't say Biden won the debate because it suggests that he and Trump were playing the same game. That said, the Biden campaign won financially. During the last half hour of the debate and a half hour after that, Biden received $4 million in donations.

Four million dollars in 60 minutes -- not really for Biden, but in opposition to Trump. Because Trump made it clear: Trump isn't America's norm-shattering showman anymore. He is America's abusive father, America's violent boyfriend, America's ranting uncle.

Trump berated Chris Wallace and screamed down nearly Biden's every sentence, trying to blot out any statement of what is plainly obvious to all: Trump sabotaged the pandemic response by ignoring the crisis, is keeping his debt-drowned businesses afloat with billing taxpayers for using his facilities, is trying to destroy health care in a pandemic and has no other response to a health crisis.

Trump is clearly terrified of being accused of all of that, terrified by how voters want him gone, terrified that without the presidency, he's facing criminal charges in colluding with foreign powers, tax evasion, campaign finance violations, negligent homicide and bankruptcy.

His response is to try to short-circuit any confrontation through interruption. It's the behaviour of a man who is scared and losing and squandering his last chance to change the course of his campaign. To win, Trump needs to expand his pool of voters, but all he did was maintain his existing position which is 7 - 10 points behind his opponent.

I had wondered why Biden was so awkward and inept in his primary performances and why he has been so polished and capable on the digital campaign trail and in his speeches. I have an answer after the debate: Biden is not skilled in confrontation. He either collapses into incoherent rants (like when he yelled at an auto worker who accused him of planning to end gun ownership or at a college student who questioned his poor primary performance) -- or in restraining himself, he mounts an ineffective or unintelligible response.

Biden's gift is connecting with people. In his town hall, asked about gun control, Biden offered a triangulative answer saying that while he and his family own guns, they do not own assault weapons capable of mass shootings with high capacity clips and rapid fire designs for massacres. Speaking with a health care worker earning too little money to live on, Biden expressed grief and anger. "I am a Democratic candidate, but I will be an American president."

Biden does not have the Kamala Harris or Elizabeth Warren precision in inflicting verbal wounds. He couldn't put Trump in his place -- but Biden did succeed in presenting his own position, simply by turning to the camera and addressing the viewers. Asking them to think on how in their lives, they had likely lost someone to COVID-19. Telling them that this election was not about Biden's sons or Trump's children but about the viewers' own families and well-being especially during a pandemic. Trump proved incapable of talking to anyone other than his cult by way of yelling at Biden and Wallace.

Biden stepped back from going at Trump and went for speaking to the people and while he didn't trouce Trump, he gave the people reason to support him and they responded to the sum of $4 million in an hour.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

That's remarkable!  I've been staying off social media so I hadn't read that.

******

Another side note.  I thought Chris Wallace was incredible.  I also thought he was fair, putting Biden's feet to the fire as much as Trump's.  He was harder on Trump, but Trump was also acting out significantly more.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

By morning, the Biden campaign had received a whopping $25 million dollars within a mere 10 hours of the debate's conclusion. Trump made an extremely strong case -- to support absolutely anybody else.

Chris Wallace is being rebuked, mocked, condemned and declared a failure for his failure to control Trump. I don't like Chris Wallace. I don't like anyone who works for FOX News. Please remember that when I say that Chris Wallace was trying, and in my worldview, trying counts and I can excuse any failure, even a FOX News failure, if the person was making every effort and simply didn't succeed.

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Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

This happens every cycle, a Republican candidate does poorly so his supporters blame the moderator.  The money is raised is important, but I'm not sure where they can place it right yet.  Though the polling is not of the highest quality, Biden is now TIED with Trump in South Carolina, Georgia, Texas, Iowa, and even ALASKA!!!  ALASKA.  Senate races are tied in many of those states now.  This is the type of disastrous sinking of the GOP ticket which Republicans feared in 2016, but didn't materialize, but did sink them in 2008.  Five weeks to go, but Trump could not have done his or his party any worse last night short of chasing after Biden/Wallace with projectile vomit.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Transmodiar cautioned that Trump was a master showman who would run circles around Biden. In the first 2020 debate, Trump was an incoherent abuser and without a hint of the showmanship that entertained Americans frustrated with the status quo in 2016. What happened?

Politico takes the view that in 2016, Trump didn't expect to win and was simply enjoying the attention of a presidential campaign that he hoped would raise his profile and allow him to borrow more money from various lenders. Trump didn't care if he won or not, and he was having fun debating with Clinton and being obnoxious, insulting and threatening because his goal was not to become president; it was simply to make a spectacle of himself on a national stage. He had nothing to lose and a little to gain, and that indifference to results gave him an onstage confidence and assurance.

But in 2020, Trump is desperate to win and crushed by the pandemic, by the 200,000 and rising body count, by the bleak realization that his creditors are coming for him, by the grim awareness that America hates him, by the nightmarish fear that the opponent he wanted (Bernie Sanders) gave way to the opponent he dreaded most (Joe Biden) and that Biden's supposed senility has turned out to be a stutter instead of cognitive decline. Trump is cornered, trapped, defeated, paranoid, terrified and he is no longer having fun. https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/ … sis-423916

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

I definitely felt like Trump came off as unhinged.  I told my friends, after essentially dropping this as a possibility, that the idea of Trump dropping out is becoming less unlikely.  I still don't think it's a great odds - maybe 15-20%, but I think they exist.  Trump does not want to be called a loser, and if the election isn't "stealable" then I think he'd be fine walking away, letting Pence get crushed, and being able to say that he didn't lose - that the election wasn't going to be fair and he was going to take his ball and go home.

Depending on what happens with any pending legal issues against him, that might be the best case scenario.  He's still Mr. President.  He still gets secret service.  Everything he says will be newsworthy.  And instead of having to deal with the media and doing whatever he considers work, he could simply do whatever he wants.  He can start a Trump Network.  He can host whatever he wants.  He could focus on getting his awful kids into politics or whatever he expects of them.  It would essentially be all the things he likes about the presidency without any of the things he doesn't like.

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Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

He's past the point of dropping out and letting someone else be the nominee.  His name goes on the ballot now whether he campaigns or not.

1,477 (edited by Grizzlor 2020-09-30 22:00:26)

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

He's not dropping out.  He's petrified about January 21, 2021.  He'll be served up to the Manhattan DA and New York Attorney General on tax evasion and other fraudulent Trump Org business dealings.  Possibly even the Southern District federal prosecutors (if he's not pardoned) on the Stormy Daniels fraud.  He'll be open to the creditors who shall be calling his 400 million dollars in loans, for which he has no way to pay.  Bankruptcy, selling off assets, etc., is all in his future.  He and his family are screwed when he loses. 

I've read that Fox News has been quite anxious about Trump losing simply because they don't want him to start a competing network.  The reality is that won't happen.  Trump has no money to do that.  At best maybe he would be given a platform on OANN, though their reach is small and production quality is laughable. 

The mistake during the debate was not bringing up the taxes AND Trump's pathetically bad business record.  That NYT article was the worst thing that's likely happened to him as President.  He is exponentially insecure, especially when to comes to his finances, and those revelations absolutely igniting Trump.  May well have been a big reason he was a lunatic last night.  The second thing he HATES is being called dumb, because he is.  When Biden said his approach to COVID had to be smarter, Trump did a literal "WHAT DID YOU CALL ME??"  Then proceeded to have a meltdown about being questioned if he's smart.  If I'm Biden, I spend the next 2 debates questioning his business losses and intelligence.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

pilight wrote:

He's past the point of dropping out and letting someone else be the nominee.  His name goes on the ballot now whether he campaigns or not.

It isn't about the name on the ballot.  You have to think about this in Trump terms.  If you're playing monopoly with a five year old and they are about to go bankrupt and they walk away, they don't consider themselves as having lost.  The loss doesn't happen until it's official.  And in that sense, he can absolutely do that.  I think it's a near-certainly that he will do that, even if it's in January.

He *cannot* lose.  He *will* not lose.  You see this a lot with online gaming - back in they day if your connection dropped during an online game, it would register as a tie.  So if you were playing a game with someone and they were losing, they could just unplug their game or internet connection and they wouldn't register a loss.  They could remain undefeated.

So I think Trump could drop out of the race, claiming fraud, at any point and he would consider himself to have never lost.  Biden would be president but it would be because it was unfair, not because he lost.  It would be on Trump's terms.  So whether that happens today or in a month or election day or two weeks after, he can drop out.  Take his ball and go home.  That or he'd stay and be escorted out by the secret service.  But even then, I think he'd claim that he quit before.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Grizzlor wrote:

I've read that Fox News has been quite anxious about Trump losing simply because they don't want him to start a competing network.  The reality is that won't happen.  Trump has no money to do that.  At best maybe he would be given a platform on OANN, though their reach is small and production quality is laughable.

Well, he has no money but he could get financing for that in ten seconds if he wanted.  It would be a moneymaking factory.  Hell, I hate Trump but I'd absolutely invest in a Trump network.  He'd have a guaranteed audience every single night.  He'd get whatever conservative talent he wanted almost immediately.  He'd instantly be a cable news ratings behemoth.  He'd need to play his cards right (big question), but he could make it happen on other people's money very easily.

He's the most recognizable brand in the world right now.  All he'd need to do is say the word, and investors would line up to pay for it.  He'd be able to attract and afford whatever talent he wanted, and people would tune in.  I don't know if he'd get the entire Fox News audience, but he'd get a huge chunk of it.  Every MAGA would tune in whether Trump was on or not.  Cable companies would pay up the wazoo to get it in their lineup.

A Trump Network would probably be the most profitable thing that Trump ever did.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Grizzlor wrote:

The mistake during the debate was not bringing up the taxes AND Trump's pathetically bad business record.  That NYT article was the worst thing that's likely happened to him as President.  He is exponentially insecure, especially when to comes to his finances, and those revelations absolutely igniting Trump.  May well have been a big reason he was a lunatic last night.  The second thing he HATES is being called dumb, because he is.  When Biden said his approach to COVID had to be smarter, Trump did a literal "WHAT DID YOU CALL ME??"  Then proceeded to have a meltdown about being questioned if he's smart.  If I'm Biden, I spend the next 2 debates questioning his business losses and intelligence.

Biden couldn't say more than two words to Trump before Trump shouted him down and Biden doesn't have the Elizabeth Warren severity to put Trump in his place. Biden could have spoken about it when addressing the camera, a maneuver that confused and baffled Trump into silence because he doesn't seem particularly aware of the viewers at home at this point -- but Biden chose not to attack Trump while talking to the people, instead trying to connect with them and leave Trump out of the conversation. Had he criticized Trump while looking into the camera, Trump would have interrupted him further.

Biden is just not a confrontational speaker in a debate. His gift is emotional connection. And he wouldn't have been able to criticize Trump for more than a few syllables at a time and he won't unless future debates can mute a speaker who doesn't respect the rules by shutting down their audio feed while filtering out their voice in real time.

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Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Slider_Quinn21 wrote:

Well, he has no money but he could get financing for that in ten seconds if he wanted.  It would be a moneymaking factory.  Hell, I hate Trump but I'd absolutely invest in a Trump network.  He'd have a guaranteed audience every single night.  He'd get whatever conservative talent he wanted almost immediately.  He'd instantly be a cable news ratings behemoth.  He'd need to play his cards right (big question), but he could make it happen on other people's money very easily.

He's the most recognizable brand in the world right now.  All he'd need to do is say the word, and investors would line up to pay for it.  He'd be able to attract and afford whatever talent he wanted, and people would tune in.  I don't know if he'd get the entire Fox News audience, but he'd get a huge chunk of it.  Every MAGA would tune in whether Trump was on or not.  Cable companies would pay up the wazoo to get it in their lineup.

A Trump Network would probably be the most profitable thing that Trump ever did.

Well as I said, the guys who own networks like OANN or Newsmax are billionaires already, so they can afford to cut Trump a big check.  There's the thing though, again, he's a phony.  His fans love how he bashes reporters for 15 minutes. or his soundbites from the rallies.  That won't sustain a TV network.  He'll put even his ardent supporters to sleep, this wouldn't be like the Apprentice where ol' Don would appear for 10 minutes, mouth a bunch of lines written for him, and say "you're fired!"  People love the myth of Trump, the actual orange babbling dufus, not quite as much. 


ireactions wrote:

Biden couldn't say more than two words to Trump before Trump shouted him down and Biden doesn't have the Elizabeth Warren severity to put Trump in his place. Biden could have spoken about it when addressing the camera, a maneuver that confused and baffled Trump into silence because he doesn't seem particularly aware of the viewers at home at this point -- but Biden chose not to attack Trump while talking to the people, instead trying to connect with them and leave Trump out of the conversation. Had he criticized Trump while looking into the camera, Trump would have interrupted him further.

Biden is just not a confrontational speaker in a debate. His gift is emotional connection. And he wouldn't have been able to criticize Trump for more than a few syllables at a time and he won't unless future debates can mute a speaker who doesn't respect the rules by shutting down their audio feed while filtering out their voice in real time.

Biden was unprepared for being heckled nonstop, I think we all were.  My advice to him is to make a HUGE point in then next debate that he's the ONLY candidate who trusts the American institutions of democracy.  Even more importantly, only he trusts the American voter.  Trump does not, he wishes to derail democracy and lives in fear of the voter.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Also, remember two things:

1. Trump has stopped trying to win voters over.  His only strategy right now is to discredit the election, and it isn't working.  It also seemed like he might've been trying to force Biden to commit to things that would cause Biden to lose voters (adding to the Supreme Court, defund the police, antifa, etc).  The problem is that most of the radical left already hates Biden and wasn't going to vote for him anyway.  And there's a good chance that Trump sheds moderate voters with that strategy, making it a zero sum gain.

2. Biden doesn't have to win these debates.  He just can't lose so badly that he loses 6-7 points.  Ties are great for him.  "This debate was unwatchable" is great for him.  Even a minor Trump win is not bad.  Biden can't get blown away or look like a lost old man.  Stay on script, take your jabs when they're offered, and do what ireactions says.  Connect with your audience.

In sporting terms, Biden's magic number is 7 with 7 games remaining.  He can lose out, and he still wins if Trump also loses out.

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Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Well turning off voters is not "great" for Biden though it's disastrous for Trump if the polls are 1/2 accurate.  As I said many times, Trump really has nothing but disgust for most of America, always has.  Given it won't vote for him, he's REALLY disgusted!  That's without even bringing up Putin.  There's been a steady stream of former Trump White House (particularly National Security and health) officials announcing their support of Biden. 

He's being outspent everywhere, really laughably at this point.  Republican Senate candidates are flailing, many now being outraised and spent by formerly unknown Dems big time.  One has to imagine the October stampede from the GOP to confirm Barrett will only pour fuel on the fire.  This happens every election, people have mostly made their minds up, and what you get is this period in October where they largely decide to vote.  In 2016, the hesitation was on Trump, was he a legitimate choice?  James Comey largely helped them to say yes.  This time around, all the doubt is on Trump, people are incredibly sick of his antics.  I only hope that it results in this mass disavowing of Trump, and the polls wind up being trounced by 3-4 points all over the place by this anti-Trump fever.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

It's interesting that Trump's actions indicate he doesn't think he needs to win voters over anymore; he'll just suppress mail-in ballots, sue to keep them from being counted and contest the results with the Supreme Court -- except his behaviour in that debate was a flailing, frantic, fretful, fear-driven attempt to drown out any words about the pandemic he isn't managing, the taxes he's been caught evading, the debt he's incapable of paying, the criminal charges he doesn't want to be facing.

Except... if he thinks his measures will work, why isn't he as smug and indifferent to the business of campaigning as he was in 2016 when it didn't matter whether or not he performed better than Clinton or won more votes? Because this time, he desperately needs to win for the presidency to protect him -- and he knows that his voter suppression efforts aren't working, that he won't have any contestable results with the way he's polling, that his smears against Biden's cognitive function or supposed radicalism aren't succeeding, that his search for "suburban housewives" isn't penetrating and that this is an election he isn't winning.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Biden's campaign is starting to do in-person canvassing again, saying they've been training their volunteers to maintain a safe distance and are supplying all protective gear, phones and supplies of sanitizer. But they've opened themselves up to accusations of hypocrisy after criticizing the Trump campaign for going door to door in residential neighbourhoods.

https://apnews.com/article/election-202 … 9cd9ca33e1

1,486 (edited by Grizzlor 2020-10-02 00:12:30)

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Get Out the Vote, canvassing, voter registration drives, ehhhhhh, does it make that much of a difference?  I've listened/read prominent political strategists with eons of experience who don't think it does.  At least, not in a Presidential election that is competitive, which is by virtue a "high turnout" election.  So you're not going to really be able to turnout much more than the "high."  The theories go that people who regularly vote in high turnout elections are going to continue to do so, and don't really need to be found in person.  Those who regularly don't vote, still won't.  Several battleground states allow same day registration anyway, for new voters. 

On Trump's thinking, he doesn't think he CAN win over new voters.  Like I said, he is pretty clear he's probably going to lose, so like you said, he's trying to "change the electorate" through suppression, litigation, and legislation.  Good luck with that Don. 

PS: Hope Hicks has coronavirus, and Trump may have to quarantine for several days, meaning no rallies!

PS, PS: Trump and Melania tested positive.  I guess he shouldn't have been mocking Biden Tuesday night for wearing a mask all the time.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

I take no pleasure in any human being being infected with COVID-19.

...

From MARVEL COMICS #1000:

Captain America wrote:

I’m asked how it’s possible to love a country that’s deeply flawed.

It’s hard sometimes. The system isn’t just. We’ve treated some of our own abominably.

Worse, we’ve perpetuated the myth that any American can become anything, can achieve anything, through sheer force of will. And that’s not always true. This isn’t the land of opportunity for everyone. The American ideals aren’t always shared fairly.

Yet without them, we have nothing.

With nothing, cynicism becomes reality. With nothing, for the privileged and the disenfranchised both, our way of life ceases to exist. We must always remember that America, as imperfect as it is, has something. It has ideals that give it structure.

When the structure works, we get schools. We get roads and hospitals. We get a social safety net. More importantly, when we have structure, we have a foundation upon which to rebuild the American Dream — that equal opportunity can be available to absolutely everyone.

America’s systems are flawed, but they’re our only mechanism with which to remedy inequality on a meaningful scale. Yes, it’s hard and bloody work. But history has shown us that we can, bit by bit, right that system when enough of us get angry. When enough of us take to the streets and force those in power to listen. When enough of us call for revolution and say, “Injustice will not stand.”

That’s what you can love about America.

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Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

No pleasure here either.  However, Trump knew that hicks was sick, and he was feeling something, but still traveled to NJ for a fundraiser.  He and his entire White house have thumbed their nose at this virus, and now they've got it.  If anything, it's just another in the long line of reasons to reject this man's complete lack of leadership and irresponsibility.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Exactly. I just don’t want to take joy in his suffering. I’d rather have fun imagining how Informant will spin this. Informant was bragging on social media awhile back about how he never wore a mask except to get into a store, that COVID was rare, that masks were unpatriotic and a sign of fear and weakness, saying masks hadn’t stopped the pandemic (conveniently ignoring how many weren’t wearing them), basically repeating Trump’s vanity driven refusal for basic safety but with Informant’s wider vocabulary and pointing out how Trump wasn’t sick. I can only laugh when imagining the mental contortions he’ll twist into now to continue insisting masks aren’t needed and are useless when his unmasked leader is in a hospital ward and his re-election campaign is now literally diseased.

That I take pleasure in. Hahahaha!

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Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Up to 6 people who attended the Amy Coney Barrett thing last Saturday test positive.  Curse of The Notorious RBG?

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

The campaign might blame the Joint Un-American Activities Committee that made the Justice Society unmask in the 1950’s.

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-_IfmPVhE6hc/WqakGv-8avI/AAAAAAAAda4/A5TG6FlRwZg_U03-wggqmzQKO7wLw3p6gCEwYBhgL/s1600/IMG_6276.jpg

1,492 (edited by ireactions 2020-10-03 00:01:34)

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

TemporalFlux wrote:

I know the argument - it’s for the public good that we temporarily suspend what the United States was built on.  I imagine some would angrily say “You’ll get your precious rights back soon enough!”  Is that where we’re at?  Do we have a guarantee we’ll get it back?  There’s even theoretical talk during a CNN interview with Dr. Anthony Fauci that “immunity papers” will need to be presented to rejoin society.  They checked your papers in Nazi Germany too.

We tend to rationalize giving up our rights in inches, and it reminds me of a poem by Martin Niemöller titled “First They Came”.  It was about the genesis of Nazi Germany.

First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—
     Because I was not a socialist.


Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—
     Because I was not a trade unionist.


Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
     Because I was not a Jew.


Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

How much will we let them take before we’re unable to speak any longer?  Something to think about.

Great poem. I was thinking about it all day today. First, COVID-19 came for people of colour, working class folks in meatpacking plants, health care workers, teachers, and the Trump campaign, administration and White House staffers dismissed it, ignored it, mocked those seeking to maintain social distance, shrieked that closing down businesses and making people wear masks and self-isolate was an infringement upon their freedoms.

After all, COVID-19 wasn't affecting Trump and his staffers who could get tested constantly, stay within their inner circle of extractivists and tax dodgers and alt-right neo Nazis and insist they didn't need to take any precautions. Precautions and illness and suffering were for poor people, black people, Muslims, immigrants, health care workers, personal support workers, people who take trains and buses -- nobody that the Trump administration felt the need to speak for because none of them were among their number. And so, the Trump staffers gallivanted across America, holding massive events, shaking hands, hugging, screaming into people's faces, gathering hundreds and thousands into close quarters and indoor spaces, refusing to wear masks even when asked and offered them.

Why? Because their cult leader declares that illness is weakness and must be hidden, denied, ignored and left untreated, unprevented, uncurtained and unaddressed. To treat or prevent sickness, in Trump's worldview, is to acknowledge that it even exists and to confess that to the world is unthinkable. Only weak people like blacks and native Americans and poor people get sick, right?

And now COVID-19 has come for all of them. Trump is sick. His wife is sick. His campaign manager is sick. His public relations manager is sick. His former press secretary is sick. His rally attendees are sick. Senator Thom Tillis is sick. Senator Mike Lee is sick. Republican National Committee Chairwoman Ronna McDaniel is sick. I usually enjoy people engaged in long-term and devastating self-owns, but this one is just pathetic and I am simply horrified, grief-stricken and deeply ashamed of America's suicidal leadership today.

**

Biden has pulled all negative Trump ads. Steve Schmidt thinks he’s an idiot for doing this. I personally appreciate Biden not wanting to kick Trump when he’s in the hospital, at least not right away.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

There is a parallel, and I think you’re right.  The thing about the current situation is that many are treating the Trump diagnosis as a conclusion to a narrative, and that’s a mistake.

What’s happening right now is that the coin is still spinning in the air.  On one side, you have the media and others treating the diagnosis as almost fatal - talk of the 25th amendment and Trump having to take his name out of contention for the election.  On the other side, you have Trump and his associates saying they really don’t feel all that bad.

When the coin hits the ground, which side will be up?  Heads or tails?  If Trump reappears in a few days full of energy, hale and hearty, what do we think he’ll say?  I think he’ll say that his experience proves the virus is no big deal.  Democrats have shut down the economy and hurt people for no reason.  And all of the people who listen to him will be emboldened.  Trump is going to have the best care in the world, but his supporters won’t see that.  They’ll just see that Trump beat it, and they can too.  No big deal.

As it’s always been, the best thing the media could do is ignore Trump, but they just can’t do it.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Let's not forget how Trump rages against socialist medicine while getting the best medical care with entire sections of the White House dedicated to health care, all paid for by the taxpayer even though Trump himself only paid $750 a year in taxes when he felt like it every once in awhile. Except Trump isn't at the White House anymore, is he?

Instead, he's been moved to the Walter Reed National Military Medical Center -- a peculiar choice. The last time Trump was whisked there, he later insisted it was a routine medical checkup, nothing to be concerned about, certainly not all the mini-strokes people were saying he'd had except the first person to suggest it had been Trump himself. And given Trump's aversion to admitting any illness, insisting that he's the picture of health when he's a severely overweight, morbidly obese individual living off 10 servings of McDonalds a day and is 74 years old and has been visibly falling apart physically, the situation is grimly, miserably, painfully clear. Trump is very sick. Nothing else would have made him go to the hospital.

I take no joy in this. I don't respect the man. I do respect the office that your country granted him. An office that Trump administered so poorly and even more poorly in the pandemic crisis that he got himself infected through his forceful unwillingness to engage in the most basic protective measures. He has now incapacitated his re-election campaign and the executive and legislative branches of his government through his reckless disregard for the virus.

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Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

The irony is just unimaginable.  If Amy Coney Barrett was still "shedding virus" and gave it to X number of people inside the WH reception (VIP's had something inside, no masks).  There's 3 GOP senators already infected, and she won't get confirmed before the election.  You couldn't write this for Curb Your Enthusiasm.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Do you think the Supreme Court seat will still be filled? (I don't know.)

**

Something I posted early but now in graphic format. Captain America on how it can be hard to love America sometimes.

https://i.ibb.co/R6Kxf7z/Marvel-1000.jpg

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Chris Christie, who helped Trump prepare for the debate (?) has tested positive.
https://www.cnn.com/politics/live-news/ … d7c33e26bc

Trump needed oxygen and at points was having trouble breathing. He is not on the road to recovery (yet?). The White House insisted that he is not on oxygen "today" and wasn't "yesterday" but refused to specify if he'd needed it at any point.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/10/03/politics … index.html

Look, the President of the United States isn't airlifted to Walter Reed National Military Medical Centre for a mild cough and a light fever. Trump's condition has clearly become serious and while I understand why people make fun, a sick president is an even sicker government. If Trump dies, electoral chaos results. Some states would have voters vote for the deceased and elect the dead candidate's party. Other states would appoint electors without a vote. It's unclear how the results would be weighed, determined or if they'd be respected. https://slate.com/news-and-politics/202 … a=taps_top

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

One interesting thing about this beyond the negative aspects.   In 2016, Trump went radio silent for awhile - his tweets largely ceased or seemed to be written by campaign staff and not him.  Many joked that it seemed like someone took his phone away.

Why does that matter?  Some have noted that tamping down his worst impulses and letting the public forget about it was in some part responsible for him defeating Hillary.  What’s happening now?  Trump has went silent except for positive messages.

As I’ve mentioned before, my Mom is fairly religious; and she’s pointing out something she has in the past.  In 2012, she noted how the hurricane seemed to help Obama beat Romney - it was like God’s finger dragging the storm where it needed to go.  She’s pointing out that she sees God’s finger again now with this diagnosis.  I don’t buy into it because this could have been prevented; but I’ll admit it is interesting that Trump came down with it at this specific moment when he could have gotten sick at any other point over the past few months. Timing matters.

1,499 (edited by Grizzlor 2020-10-03 18:49:39)

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Well the only shot Romney had in 2012 was if Obama was swept away IN that hurricane!  One, obviously me LOL, could argue the ghost of RBG has haunted Trump and most of his White house and campaign staff.  2016 if any one thing put him over the top it was Jim Comey's October non-surprise surprise that doomed Hillary. 

As for this moment, look, it's been 7 months we've been dealing with COVID-19.  Public perception on who they trust (anybody but Trump), and measures they wish to be taken (the opposite of Trump's) have not changed.  We're talking 60-70% agreement which includes a decent slice of Republicans.  Is his recovery going to suddenly convince tens of millions of people that he was RIGHT all along?  I cannot fathom that, as TF you say, they done screwed up, again. 

To use another hurricane analogy, Trump is the old couple who refused to evacuate when the state told them to, and the National Guard had to go in and rescue them.  Religious or not, rich or poor, black or white, people recognize a dummy when they see one.  Trump would have to return to the campaign trail, and behave.  They'd have to conduct at least one more debate, where he'd have to behave.  Can he do this?  Moreover, will he WANT to do this?  I think no.

PS: The latest Q Anon-fueled idioacy is that Trump was targeted with the virus!!!  I mean, ROFL ROFL.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

In addition to QAnon, Baba Vanga predicted the President would get sick:

https://www.the-sun.com/news/1576472/bl … ronavirus/

(Vanga has also been shown to be some kind of urban legend propagated on Russian social media, but it’s interesting in understanding where these wild ideas come from).