Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

I fully admit that I have a bias against cops.  The way they are recruited and trained in most areas results in systemic abuse of power and inequality of protection.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Back to the original subject, Bernie Sanders endorsed Hillary Clinton today

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

pilight wrote:

Back to the original subject, Bernie Sanders endorsed Hillary Clinton today

It was a ringing endorsement too.  "She is not Donald Trump" was the summary of the entire speech.  So if the Republicans were to pick any other human, I wonder if he'd retract it tongue

Outside of just being afraid of a Trump presidency, I don't really understand what Bernie gains here.  From what I've read, Clinton delegates shot down a ton of progressive items in the democratic platform.  They're miles away on tons of subjects that Bernie claims to be excited about.

Statistically speaking, Bernie Sanders should die sometime during Hillary's first term (average American lifespan is 78).  Statistics say this will be the last election of his life.  And to get such little done after such a long fight seems to indicate that Bernie is the weak politician that everyone thought he was the last 30 years.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Obama with an amazing speech at the political   I'm willing to vote to repeal the 22nd amendment if it means no Trump or Clinton.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

pilight wrote:

I fully admit that I have a bias against cops.  The way they are recruited and trained in most areas results in systemic abuse of power and inequality of protection.

I am all for having a healthy skepticism toward those in authority. We're supposed to be keeping the authorities in check.

But once you care more about being anti-cop than you do the facts or evidence, I don't see how you can claim to be any better than the people you're speaking against. A small percentage of cops are corrupt, just like a small percentage of black people are criminals. Judging the whole rather than the individuals is wrong in either case.

Not waiting for information before jumping to conclusions has gotten our whole country into this incredibly volatile situation.


Slider_Quinn21 wrote:

I'm willing to vote to repeal the 22nd amendment if it means no Trump or Clinton.

Whoa now... let's not go crazy. President Trump might not be *that* bad. The last thing we need is another FDR situation.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Well after I said that I looked into it.  I was thinking there'd be a popular change.org petition or something, and there wasn't.  Which surprised me.

What I did see was the idea of an emergency extension of the presidency for two years and have the election in 2018.  Which would mean Hillary and Trump would be eligible to "re-take" their positions, but they'd have to win a primary again.  Basically saying "do-over" on the whole process and starting it back over.  I'd certainly be okay with that, assuming that we'd spend the next year feverishly looking for anyone to replace the two of them.

But, again, I'd be okay with a third term for Obama.  I don't love him as a president, but we know what we're going to get with him.  And by the time the next election happens, Trump and Hillary would both be Bernie's age, and I'd hope both parties could find someone less toxic.

I don't know.  I watched all the speeches today.  Bush was great and Obama was great.  Both very presidential.  And just the idea of either Hillary or Trump giving a speech like that would come off as very self-serving.  I think both of them are very narcissistic - to the point where I honestly wouldn't be able to buy that they care about any of the victims.  I think Hillary is sad that two black voters were killed, Trump is sad he lost 5 white voters, and I think both candidates are going to just use what happened in Dallas for their own agendas.

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Yeah, we have very different views of Obama. We do know what we'd be getting, and that is as bad or worse than what the others would give us. We aren't even keeping our heads above water here. Terrorist attacks keep happening. Our own citizens are on the brink of declaring war on each other. The medical system is a disaster. The Constitution might as well cease to exist. In my mind Hillary and Trump are horrible ideas precisely because they might be just like Obama. He is a truly, truly horrible President. Like... "Jimmy Carter and FDR's love child" bad. So bad that I think I'd actually prefer Drunk Uncle Biden to take over.

But I guess we're all entitled to our opinions. smile

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Boy, these past 20+ posts are a really electrifying discussion about the U.S. presidential election! smile

Earth Prime | The Definitive Source for Sliders™

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Obama has been pretty bad, mostly because he was underqualified for the job in the first place.  That's part of what makes Trump so scary.  He's even less qualified than Obama.

The only good thing to say about Obama is that he's a step up over his predecessor, which is like bragging about having a faster Yugo than your neighbor.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Obama was a brand, not a real candidate when he ran. It was all about pretty pictures and catchy slogans, and he really had no idea what he was doing... and he still doesn't. Ever since he was a kid, he's just been a follower of activists. Some pretty extreme.

My biggest worry about Trump is that he is balls-out crazy. I think he's qualified in terms of knowing how to get things done. I'm just very skeptical that what he wants to get done will benefit the rest of us in any way. His whole history is about lying, cheating and manipulating to get whatever will benefit him. I don't believe that he has much concern for the little people.

As for Bush... there are a lot of things that I didn't like and some things that I did. I would disagree that he was worse than Obama, but it probably isn't worth debating right now.

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Again, no happy with Obama.  But the future is so scary with either Hillary or Trump.  The problem is that they're both Nixon, and we haven't had a president as narcissistic and power-hungry since then.  And as we saw with Nixon, I think both of these people would be willing to do anything (punch their mother, murder someone one live television, etc) to get to be president.  I'm already on record as saying that I don't believe either would make it through a whole term because they're both so stupid and/or corrupt.

I think Obama generally wants what's best for the country.  He's made a lot of mistakes (yes, due to being underqualified) but I don't see him as downright-evil as I see these guys.

The one positive I can say about Hillary in my own soul-searching over this mess is that she's done a ton of horrible things to get to this point, and maybe it's all to get to be the first woman president.  And maybe once she has that power, she can go back to being a respectable human being.

But I wouldn't bet on it.

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Are we talking about the same Obama? Barack, right? smile

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Hahaha.  I just can't put him on the same level as Hillary and Trump.  The good news for you is that he ain't coming back, and he does seem to be in fully lame duck mode.  And if he truly thinks that Hillary is the most qualified ever, then he's clearly not as smart as I want to give him credit for.

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In all seriousness, if neither Trump nor Clinton work for you as candidates, why not send a message and vote third party? Gary Johnson is polling double digits as a Libertarian - it's not outside the realm of possibility if people would stop voting to keep people out instead of voting people in.

Earth Prime | The Definitive Source for Sliders™

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

I will be voting third party.  Still trying to figure out which one.

So a poll came out that had Trump winning or tied in all three big battleground states (Pennsylvania, Florida, Ohio).  If he wins those three states, it's going to be very hard for Hillary to win.  In fact, if you take the Obama/Romney map and just flip those three states, Trump wins 273-265.

Leads me to my question.  If Hillary loses, what happens to the Democratic party?  Besides the rift created by the Bernie Sanders crowd, there'd be tons of mistakes made along the way.  A really weak field (orchestrated by Hillary) and then losing to a crazy unpopular Republican with almost no support from the Republican establishment.  We know the Republican party is going to go through tons of changes after all this, but wouldn't this be a giant disaster?  With Hillary's money, her support from a president with high approval ratings, and her support from her party, wouldn't a loss be devastating?

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The GOP released the list of convention speakers.  Notable absences include Mike Pence and Sarah Palin.

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Everyone is reporting that Pence is the guy.  So that'd explain why he's not on the list.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Slider_Quinn21 wrote:

Everyone is reporting that Pence is the guy.  So that'd explain why he's not on the list.

Apparently not everyone on the list will actually be speaking.  Tim Tebow announced that he would not be and did not know how he got on the list.  I guess that's the kind of attention to detail we can expect from a Trump presidency.

As for Pence, that should be the final nail in the coffin of the idea that Trump is anything other than a GOP establishment shill.  Nobody is more Republican insider than Pence.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

pilight wrote:

Apparently not everyone on the list will actually be speaking.  Tim Tebow announced that he would not be and did not know how he got on the list.  I guess that's the kind of attention to detail we can expect from a Trump presidency.

It makes his campaign look so stupid.  And this isn't the first time he's announced that someone would speak and they said "wait, no I'm not."  I understand when he shoots from the cuff and just randomly says stuff because he's an idiot, but his staff should be *that much more careful* because of it.  And yet they seem to be the same level of people.

"Hey Tim's publicist!  We want him to speak on the final night of our convention."
"I mean, maybe.  I'd have to speak with him abo-"
"Great!  I'll release it officially!"
"Wait, bu"
* dial tone *

As for Pence, that should be the final nail in the coffin of the idea that Trump is anything other than a GOP establishment shill.  Nobody is more Republican insider than Pence.

I don't disagree at all, but that's not super fair.  Just because VP candidates are supposed to fill in gaps that the presidential candidate can't fill.  So, ideally, Trump's VP is supposed to convince Republicans/independents who don't like him that they should vote for him anyway.  So Hillary's VP should be a progressive.  It doesn't mean that Hillary is progressive, but it's to throw a bone to people that are *supposed* to vote for her but don't like her as a candidate alone.

So Trump gets an establishment VP and the establishment is supposed to vote for him.  Whether or not Trump is establishment (I agree with you, for the record).  People are led to believe that the VP will influence the President when IMO it's basically a vestigial position anyway.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Well, Trump's campaign continues to crap all over itself as Melania Trump straight stole a portion of her speech from Michelle Obama's speech.  At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter, but it's just another stupid thing that the Trump campaign let happen.

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I've heard about this, but haven't had time to see what it is all about. This better be good. If I put the effort in and people show me a clip show of her saying "the", I'm going to be upset.

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All the people who voted for Joe Biden need to shut the hell up about how bad plagiarism is.

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I agree with that!

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Well I thought the Trump people's explanation was weak.  There were whole sections that were word for word.  My issue has more to do with the people ripping Melania herself.  I would say there is virtually zero chance she had anything to do with the speech, and I would say there is a zero percent chance that she would've realized that it was plagiarized.  That was stupid.

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Informant - I have a question for you.  I know you're a conservative/Republican who doesn't support Trump.  If a politician you like were to support/endorse Trump, would that change your opinion of that politician?  Would it make you less likely to vote for them?

The reason I'm asking is that I'm confused on the Republicans who are going out of their way to not support Trump.  They must think that it would hurt them politically, but I don't see how that'd be the case.  Especially when I assume any politician would write it off by simply saying "he was running against Hillary Clinton" even if Trump loses in a landslide.

Along those same lines, if the story about Kasich being offered the VP job (including control over domestic *and* foreign policy), I have no idea why he'd turn that down.  He'd basically be president, and there's a real chance he'd officially be president before 2020.  And even if he wasn't, I could see it being the first time (as far as I know) that a sitting vice president challenged a sitting president in a primary.  And he might win, especially if he looked more presidential than Trump.

Just seems like a weird decision to both turn down that offer and not even show up to the convention.  Even Cruz, who Trump was much more vicious to, is showing up.  Kasich comes off looking really petty.

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I can see it being damaging. If someone has strong beliefs and would rather stand by those beliefs than go along to get along, they wouldn't suddenly start cheering for a guy that they don't like and don't believe in. I'm curious to see how enthusiastic Cruz is about Trump at this point.

I have certainly pinched my nose and supported candidates that I didn't love because they were the lesser of two evils, so I think it makes sense sometimes. But Trump is a lot harder to support. I can certainly understand people needing to give it more thought. At this point, I don't know what my plan is for November.

I also don't understand how anyone at all can support Hillary, given her history and that of her husband. They're the inspiration for characters in House of Cards, for crying out loud.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Informant wrote:

I also don't understand how anyone at all can support Hillary, given her history and that of her husband. They're the inspiration for characters in House of Cards, for crying out loud.

I've seen people post on social media about how scary Frank Underwood is and then publicly support Hillary.  I almost put my palm through my face each time.

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I didn't watch (the convention is a crock) but I hear that Cruz didn't endorse Trump. After everything Trump did during the primary, I would probably have lost some respect for Cruz if he had. I mean, Trump accused Cruz's father of helping Oswald kill Kennedy. Cruz would have to be seriously whipped in order to endorse Trump.

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Yeah they're saying that Trump set him up.  Either Cruz would endorse him, or Trump would whip up support to boo him at the end of his speech.  I don't see it as a huge deal, although now Hillary is basically using his words to say vote for her.  If Cruz doesn't clarify that he *doesn't* mean "vote for Hillary" then he could be in bigger trouble.  Not voting for Trump is one thing.  Advocating voting for Hillary at the Republican National Convention is the type of thing that ends political careers.

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Seeing a lot of people getting mad at Trump for using fear to try and stir up people to vote for him.  I don't disagree, but it's usually said by Hillary supporters.  Isn't her entire campaign about the fear of a Donald Trump presidency?  Isn't she doing the same thing?

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Fear should be a factor. We aren't voting for America's Next Top Model here, we are voting for someone who will undoubtedly be responsible for both saving and taking human lives. People make it sound as though it is reckless to suggest that a candidate could get us all killed, but that can happen too. People should have gone after Obama hard, for his soft stance on terrorism and his history with racial radicals. They didn't. Now we alternate between news headlines about terrorist attacks and headlines about racial attacks. People voted for a slogan and a funky poster and never considered the consequences of that vote. Our national debt thanks them for that, I'm sure.

People should look at voting for a president the same way they would look at handing a loaded gun to a random stranger on the street. Being cautious, nervous or even fearful isn't always a bad thing.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Informant wrote:

People should look at voting for a president the same way they would look at handing a loaded gun to a random stranger on the street.

So people shouldn't vote?

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Well, the weird thing about the hardcore anti-Trump people are the double-sidedness of it.  They criticize Trump for not being specific about anything (and they're right) and yet talk about a Trump presidency would be post-apocalyptic.  How can you be scared of something that you don't know about?

I think Trump would be a bad president, and I think Pence would be a bad vice president.  But I don't really know how Trump could be a post-apocalyptic president.  I don't know what, specifically, Trump could do to be the next Hitler or to end America.  I don't think the president has that much power, and I think he'd be even more hamstrung by a Republican establishment that doesn't love his policies.

He's not going to deport all Muslims or all Mexicans.  It won't happen.  He's not going to repeal gay marriage - that can't happen.  He's not going to drive away America's allies because our allies are smarter than that.  You don't quit being friends with your best friend because his/her annoying brother is in town for the weekend.  You get through the weekend and wait for things to be fine.

He'd be responsible for a Supreme Court judge, but unless the GOP gets enough Senators (questionable) then he's not going to get a crazy person confirmed.  He'll get someone who leans conservative, but I don't think that means we're going to turn into Nazi Germany. 

He'll probably try and build the wall, but that's either going to fizzle or take forever.   And, again, hardly makes us Nazi Germany.

He sucks.  He's not qualified.  He's probably racist and/or sexist.  But I really don't know the actual consequences of a Trump presidency.  I think the odds are *much* higher that he's impeached before he could ever turn into someone like Erdogan in Turkey.  I know that it's possible, but it's possible with anyone - including Hillary.

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Yeah, I am not exactly sure what Trump will do. He is a maniac who  changes directions on a whim, and he is used to having people hang on his every word and never question him. I don't think he can really be a servant of the people. I think he might do some good things, but they will probably be filtered through the lens of what will benefit him or his family's business.

He has proven that he doesn't handle people speaking against him. What happens when everyone is speaking against him and he doesn't like it? I think his scattered beliefs and tantrums are the concern here. His reaction to Cruz proves that.

With Hillary, the problem is that we know exactly what she is. I can't believe that the Democrats brought her back to this point.

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I mean I get that he won't be a good president.  I'm certainly not going to vote for him.  I just don't know what he could really do that would be as bad as people are fearing.  I think he's a guy who's all talk and no action so I could see it just being four wasted years in terms of actually doing anything productive.  I'm not even sure if he'd repeal Obamacare, even if he wanted to.

My concerns with Hillary are more concrete because we know more about what she wants to do and what she has a history of doing.  There will be more regime changes in the Middle East.  More economic policies that benefit corporations over people.  And after another (apparent) terrorist attack in Germany, more really weak defense against ISIS.

When Trump doesn't spell out policy, I think it's because he honestly isn't planning to do much.  And I'd rather have a president that doesn't do much than one who is actively working in their own self-interests.

But, again, I'm not voting for either.  I'll let the rest of the country decide which of these is the lesser of two evils.

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He might repeal Obamacare to replace it with a universal health care system.  He has favored such a thing for a long time.

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It's possible.  But one of the criticisms of Trump is that he doesn't know what he's doing.  Even if he could repeal Obamacare (which, honestly, might not be the worst idea - I lost my health insurance in January and Obamacare wasn't a great option), I don't know if he'd put together anything to replace it.

It's hard to get things done as president.  Even if one party controls all three branches, the system is so clogged with bureaucracy that wholesale changes are difficult to make.  Compromises have to be made and everything gets watered down. 

The criticisms against Trump are that he's unqualified and doesn't know what he's doing (*agreed*) and that he's going to set up a Fourth Reich.  I don't see how these two gel together.  I don't have any faith that Trump can "make America great again" (or even what that means) but I also don't see him as a political mastermind.  I don't think he has the stomach or the will to do all the hard work that the President requires, and I think he'd delegate a lot of the hard stuff to lower people.  And unless Pence is a political mastermind / secret Nazi, I think we'll just have four years of nothing.  Which, honestly, is the best case scenario in my opinion.

That's why I fear a Trump presidency more than a Hillary presidency.  I fear both and I will not vote for either.  But until someone can tell me what I should actually be afraid of with Trump, that's just how I feel.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Obamacare is a disaster. As someone whose family has been dealing with a lot of doctors, hospitals, therapists since 2009, it is just a mess. A lot of medical professionals are finding other lines of work because of it. Companies that made specialized (expensive!) braces and worked with people to provide them for little to no money are now out of business.
And deciding to punish people who don't get coverage... the system is meant for people who couldn't afford healthcare, so now they actually fine people who can't afford healthcare. How does that logic make sense?

If Obama is capable of getting that monstrosity through, I pray that Trump is at least as capable of making it go away.

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Tim Kaine is so much more likable (just as a person, not talking about policy) than Hillary.  It would've been great if the DNC had let guys like him run for president instead of just allowing nobodies like Bernie to run.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Worth noting: https://www.facebook.com/james.grissom/ … 1889333429

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

As opposed to the slate of nobodies and others screaming at the top of their lungs at the RNC, the DNC was full of some of the most powerful, intelligent, and attention-grabbing speeches ever.  Policy aside, the Obama's delivered really well done orations, with the President perhaps doing his best one yet.  Biden was also terrific.  Kaine was maybe the most awkward I've watched before, while the Clinton's were sort of ho-hum.  General Allen's was the craziest, giving an over the top Patton-esque pep talk. 

The most gawking speech was that of Khizr Khan, Gold Star parent, and Muslim immigrant of decades past.  I felt he obliterated Trump's brand of xenophobia and fear mongering in a way others could not.  Perhaps it was so unexpected, but it really went to the heart of Trump's brand, and backed up the message of the convention.  It's "Stronger Together" but moreover, Trump is an undisciplined, thin skinned, megalomaniac.  His ghost writer of Art of the Deal also appeared from obscurity to throw up the red flags.

Trump then predictably proceeded to try to bad mouth the Khan family in interviews, just as he did Judge Curiel, John McCain, and others.  Now the Khan's have been pure golden, and continue to battle with the buffoon on national media, while his own running mate, Paul Ryan, and Mitch McConnell run and hide.  This behavior is EXACTLY what has in my view disqualifies this candidate from the get-go.  Sure he's a missile to the political status quo, but the guidance system is blown to hell.  I mean, did he seriously mean it when he "hoped Russia would hack Hillary's email?" 

Look politics aside, the office of the President, at least to me, is still far too important, prestigious, and important (emphasis there) to hand it over to, as Art of the Deal's Tony Schwartz put it, a "psychopath."  I detest the manner in which the Clintons do business politically.  I'd much rather have seen Biden as the Dem, but it is what it is.  I can sleep at night with Hillary in charge, while Donald actually frightens me.  Simply because we cannot have the fucking President of the United States battling private citizens on national television.  I refuse to believe we're that low, that pathetic, that disgraceful, to have such a putrid individual represent the entire country.  It's embarrassing.  He cannot be rewarded for being a grade A asshole.

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Okay, but the question I'm continually coming back to is.....what are you actually afraid of when it comes to Donald Trump?  Yeah, he's a loudmouth.  Yeah,  he's an idiot.  Yeah, he's an egomaniac.  But outside of being, as you said, embarrassed to have him hold the office, I don't know what people are actually *afraid* of.

Hillary made reference to the fact that Trump shouldn't be trusted with nuclear weapons, but that attack is both baseless and sorta crazy.  Yes, the president is the commander-in-chief and controls the military, but he doesn't have a button in the Oval Office that just nukes countries.  That process, like almost everything, comes with a system of checks and balances so that stuff like that can't happen.  If Trump got mad at, say, Guatemala for some bullshit reason and wanted to nuke them, he'd end up under arrest before he ever actually did any damage to anyone else.  So either Hillary doesn't know that (which shows incompetence) or she's using the same sort of baseless fear tactic that Trump is using (it's the latter).

He'd be a terrible, awful president.  I will not vote for him.  But when people say they're afraid of him, I'm not quite sure what to be afraid of.  He's not going to be able to deport all muslims or all Mexicans.  Even if he wanted to, he wouldn't be able to.  And the more I think about it, I don't think there's any chance in Hell he could even break ground on his Mexico wall in four years.  It took way longer than that to break ground on One World Trade Center, and that's something everyone in the country wanted to get done.  If elected, the wall would just be cancelled by whoever wins in 2020 with the only cost to the taxpayer being whatever committee was hired to find a contractor to build the damn thing.

The stuff to fear with Hillary is more tangible.  That she's been bought by the banks.  That she has a history of getting rid of leaders and leaving countries worse than they were before.  That she has a lady boner for Syria and wants to go in there.  That she wants to take in a *ton* of Syrian refugees when ISIS has already said they're planning on sneaking in terrorists through refugees.

She also has her ambiguous fears.  Is she going to flip-flop on stuff like TPP, breaking up the banks, gay marriage (stuff she's only recently started supporting)?  Do the Russians already have dirt on her that they can use against her via those deleted emails?  Are she and Obama unequipped to handle ISIS, seeing that it's grown out of control under their watch?  Is four more years of what we're getting actually the right path?

Trump sucks.  I get it.  But with him, the problems are nebulous.  And considering the fact that he's not talking policy, I have to assume he has no policy.  Yeah, he'd hire a conservative judge or two.  But I honestly think he'd just end up doing a lot of nothing, and if he tries to do something illegal/immoral, his lack of support among the Republican establishment makes it the most likely impeachment in the history of the country.

Hillary has so much power in the democratic party that she could be on trial for murder and she wouldn't get impeached. 

So until I get more concrete fears, I'm going to be more scared of her than him.  But, just to be clear, I'm not voting for either.

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For all of Trump's faults, how many people around him have actually ended up dead?  Meanwhile, Hillary has many dead bodies in her wake (the most well known probably being her attorney Vince Foster who committed suicide with a magic gun)

I don't think either would use a nuke, but I do believe one of them is a killer.

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Trump being buddy-buddy with Putin suggests that the Russians would have even more free reign in the Middle East and worldwide than they do now.

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Yeah, I can see Russia being a problem in a Trump presidency, but I honestly can't tell you the best strategy for them.  If Putin wants to invade other countries, what's the proper reaction?  Isn't "World War 3" the only thing that comes out of that?  Whether Obama, Trump, Hillary, Biden, Pence, Kaine, Ted Cruz, whoever is president? 

I've seen the "buddy-buddy" argument, but what's the endgame for that in people's minds?  Is the US going to go to war with NATO because Russia invaded the Ukraine?  Just stay out of it completely?  Invade Ukraine ourselves to help them hold it?

I'm using a lot of hyperbole, but I'm honestly not sure exactly what a Putin-Trump friendship, if indeed they're friends, would even mean.  Is it better to deal with Putin passively (as people assume Trump would do) or meet him with force (as people assume Hillary would do).  Is that even a question we want to ask?

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Trump has now frustrated his own campaign so badly, there are reports of them "mailing it in now."  RNC is currently gathering leaders to discuss Plan B should Trump have a tantrum at any moment and run away with his ball and quit.

Sorry, Hillary doesn't frighten me.  I'll sleep at night, same with Obama, and honestly the same with Bush.  The President makes very few ACTUAL direct decisions, but the one he or she will need to make are usually fairly crucial.  Trump has no clue about anything outside of his own world, which frankly isn't much more than concerns over himself, himself, and oh by the way, himself.  The #1 reason I oppose him is he'll likely appoint Chris Christie as his AG, and that piece of garbage is one of the most bullying, corrupt, power-hungry, back-stabbing turds this side of the 19th century. 

PS: the Clinton body count stuff is a joke.  I could make the same argument about the Bush's, how their family bankrolled fascists like Hitler prior to WWII, something they were TRIED for.  The coziness with the Bin Laden family, etc., etc.  Where does it get anyone?  I can tell you something that is fact.  Donald Trump's entire real estate empire was built in the 70's and 80's with STRONG Mafia ties.  He was the front man for casinos in Atlantic City he should never have been allowed to own, given his consigliere Roy Cohn was a mob-affliated NY lawyer and power broker.  Trump is dirty, perhaps dirtier than any major candidate before.

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The Trump fortune was built by Fred Trump in the 1940's and 50's on FHA loan profiteering.  Donald had nothing to do with it.  He has maintained his inheritance, nothing more.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Yes I know he inherited, but he HAS done extensive business since taking over in the early 70's.  Whether those maneuvers have been successful overall or not, that's another story.  His record in and around NYC is extremely controversial.  But yes, Daddy Fred was as crooked as Donald accuses Hillary of being. 

A new controversy involved Trump persistently asking an advisor why the United States "can't use it's nuclear weapons."  Again, how someone even has to ASK such a thing is a frightening thought.  I mean, has this guy (forget read) watched the History Channel???  Didn't he live through the Cuban Missile Crisis? 

http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/po … gn-mutiny/

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

I mean I don't disparage anyone for fearing Trump.  He's unpredictable.  I just don't really fear him.  He's not going to nuke Europe or drop out of NATO or build a wall and a bunch of concentration camps.  He's a buffoon and he's not capable of any of the fascist stuff people think he'll do.  I think he's much more likely to either quit after he wins (because he doesn't want to do the job) or get kicked out of office than do anything nefarious.

Hillary will go to war with Syria.  She will bring in a ton of refugees.  And she's going to have way more leash to do stuff she'll want to do because she has control over every Democratic congressman. 

Just my thoughts.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

If Trump quits then his followers are back at square one, since he selected a long time GOP insider as a running mate.  The prospect of Pence becoming president is likely to drive voters towards Clinton, or at least away from Trump.