Topic: Why all the hate for the Breeder?

Why is there all this hate for the Breeder? Is it simply because Maggie spends a lot of time in skimpy clothing?

While far from my favorite episode in the series, I think it's decent. It's got an interesting back story with its organ "donor" system, has good conflict with the Sliders over where Maggie fits in with the group, an interesting conflict beeeen Remmy and Quinn and where they both came from before sliding took over their lives, has a fun scene with Diggs, and even has a Back To the Future 4 reference.

I'm not saying this episode is up there with Post Traumatic Slide Sydrome or anything, and it does seem a little over the top for Sliders with the sexy Maggie scenes, but I think it's a decent episode overall.

Re: Why all the hate for the Breeder?

Is this a serious question?

Re: Why all the hate for the Breeder?

Yes.

Re: Why all the hate for the Breeder?

The episode is a prime example of the 1990's network motto, "sex sells". They bent over backwards to turn their character into a sex kitten, putting her in revealing clothes and having her slink around, simply because they thought that some 13 year old boys would get a thrill from it.

Sliders was far from the biggest example of this trope, but it is one of the bigger examples of what went wrong with the series by that point. Storytelling went out the window in favor of cheap sexiness and trying to cash in on popular movies (in this case, Species)

Re: Why all the hate for the Breeder?

I guess I just never thought it was too over the top, even for Sliders. A lot of shows were doing far worse than what was shown with Maggie  in the Breeder, in my opinion.

Re: Why all the hate for the Breeder?

It's such a ripoff of "Species", right down to emulating specific shots from the film, that it's hard to take seriously.

Re: Why all the hate for the Breeder?

It was bad in every way imaginable.

Re: Why all the hate for the Breeder?

I've never seen Spiecies, so maybe if I had, I would feel differently.

Re: Why all the hate for the Breeder?

Surf Dance Chris wrote:

I've never seen Species, so maybe if I had, I would feel differently.


It really isn't just that the show was inspired by Species; it's that doing a show like that was a giant waste of the entire premise of Sliders and it just really got away from why anyone tuned in.  It would have been ok as a b-movie horror/comedy flick.

Re: Why all the hate for the Breeder?

RussianCabbie_Lotteryfan wrote:

It would have been ok as a b-movie horror/comedy flick.


Which is exactly what Species is, an OK b-movie horror/comedy flick.

Re: Why all the hate for the Breeder?

The clear rip off of "Species" is just so evident and outright blatant.
I have not watched the episode again and have no intention.  It's worst than "bad" its the most foul turd that the show ever produced. EP called "Requiem"  unwatchable but I can at least sit through that episode,  but several are just so OTT  and bad and causes such a stink on the airways that most fans refuse to ever see them again:
TIME AND AGAIN WORLD
DESERT STORM
THE FIRE WITHIN
PARADISE LOST
THE CHASM
THE BREEDER

Even Stoker, this Slide of Paradise can be watched for a good belly laugh but the above are just cringeworthy and will bring tears to one's eyes.

Re: Why all the hate for the Breeder?

It honestly is not in the top 10 of worst episodes for me, yeah it's dumb but moves at a descent pace with better than average special effects.

I get that it is part of season 3's let's rip off a movie every week, but at least this episode pulled it off, where as several other episodes failed in both effects and logic.  Plus it did movie the plot of season 3 along.

IF the problem is feeling bad for Kari being asked to do this as her 3rd or so filmed episode of the show I get that and agree...but tarnishing the great name that was Sliders, that had already happened and if you cab accept the rest of season 3 then this in my mind was on the better half of the scale.

AR this point in tvl and wasn't 7 of 9 wearing less weekly on voyager?

13 (edited by Slider_Quinn21 2016-09-14 09:57:23)

Re: Why all the hate for the Breeder?

Informant wrote:

The episode is a prime example of the 1990's network motto, "sex sells". They bent over backwards to turn their character into a sex kitten, putting her in revealing clothes and having her slink around, simply because they thought that some 13 year old boys would get a thrill from it.

Sliders was far from the biggest example of this trope, but it is one of the bigger examples of what went wrong with the series by that point. Storytelling went out the window in favor of cheap sexiness and trying to cash in on popular movies (in this case, Species)

Honest question because Voyager gets the same criticism:

Is it possible to exploit your female characters for their sexiness (Maggie, Seven of Nine, etc) and still tell a good story?  Or is the sexual exploitation always going to distract too much from the story?

Because, honestly, I only have one image of the Breeder and it's just Maggie in a silver dress looking seductive.  I can't remember anything else from the episode, and yet I regard it as one of the worst of the series.  I don't have any other reason.

Is there an example of a show/movie doing it without hurting quality?

Re: Why all the hate for the Breeder?

The problem isn't sexiness. The problem is that in most cases, sexiness is used instead of creativity. The reason that you don't remember much more from that episode is that there simply wasn't much more from that episode. The flimsy excuse for a plot was just a means of getting to that slinky dress.

Chuck used Sarah Walker's sexiness quite a bit. From the Weinerlicious costume, to the Orange Orange costume, to the many bathing suits and tight dresses, they didn't shy away from Sarah's sexiness at all. But it wasn't the point of her character, or of any episode. It was a tool that she used when it would be useful.

Exploitation of sexiness is cheap, and viewers naturally reject that sort of thing. Seven of Nine didn't need to be in a skin tight outfit all the time. She was put in one that was specifically designed to accentuate every curve of her body for reasons that had nothing to do with plot.

As with anything in writing or producing a TV show or movie, motive is everything. The audience knows when you're taking them for a fool.

Re: Why all the hate for the Breeder?

It seems that most shows (judging from the comments regarding Chuck) and not just Sci Fi stoop to the sexploitation route. Even beloved Star Trek TOS is not without blame.

the only show I can think of that did not require its female cast members to dress skimpy was Babylon 5.
this show had its fair share of hot babes (Patricia Tallman, Claudia Christian, Andrea Winters, Tracy Scoggins, etc) but it never made a point of showing their curves or bodies.
I applaud this show and its creator...

Re: Why all the hate for the Breeder?

The thing is, I wouldn't call it "exploitation" in the case of something like Chuck. Sarah was a spy who used her looks for the sake of a mission, but it served a purpose. The exploitation of Captain Awesome on the show was more blatant, but in his case, it was used for the comedy. He was the perfect spy type, but he was a doctor. Chuck was the perfect doctor type, but he was a spy. Nothing on the show was cheap and pointless like what Sliders did with Maggie.

Re: Why all the hate for the Breeder?

I've never seen "Species," but "The Breeder" is an abomination. Even if you find Kari's objectification entertaining, the entire episode is witless, crass, clumsy, dull and deeply unprofessional.

There is absolutely no social commentary or satirical points made in the US Government treating the poor as organ farms; there is no effort to explore what kind of mindset produces such a society or to give any meaningful characterization to the people who live in it.

Dr. Sylvius written innanely and flatly as nothing but a malicious antagonist, completely failing to represent this world or its history. The plot deliberately and lazily avoids having the sliders engage with this society at all: they only seek out health care because of Maggie and the focus is on her parasite, not this world.

The sliders are portrayed as ineffectual. Quinn and Rembrandt inexplicably interfere with the authorities arresting a woman, and even if you set aside their total ignorance as to what they're getting involved in, they themselves prove incapable of rescuing the woman and are shown to be incompetent blunderers despite nearly three years of sliding.

The sliders are also portrayed as abrasively toxic towards each other and the world around them. Wade, expressing her emotional turmoil in response to all the death she's seen, receives not comfort from Quinn but verbal abuse. Rembrandt is offended when Quinn fails to check out girls. And at the end, our so-called heroes abandon an entire world to the parasite that they brought into this environment.

The entire production for "The Breeder" is inept by any measure of scripted and visual storytelling. The sliders leaping into the vortex is presented in a take where Jerry O'Connell misses his mark and visibly walks offscreen. The shot of Maggie assaulting the man in Diggs' bar is missing sound effects. Maggie is frozen at the beginning of the episode with no ill-effect on the parasite, yet freezing is presented as the solution at the end. The performances are pathetic as Jerry and Kari are clearly on the verge of laughing at this ridiculous script throughout.

It's very obvious that the creators do not care if their material turns out well and have absolutely no concern for viewer enjoyment whatsoever. And that and everything else in this episode is a complete betrayal of SLIDERS.

I'm not saying Seasons 1 - 2 were perfect television, but they demonstrated effort and care in crafting plausible physical environments that resembled the real world with a meaningfully documentary-style aesthetic in Season 1 that gave way to a more shadowy and vivid approach in Season 2 with great attention to set and prop design, sound, cinematography, blocking and performance -- as opposed to "The Breeder" which can't even render the sliders leaping into the vortex correctly.

Seasons 1 - 2 also made sure that despite the darkness and horror of sliding, it was livened up by Cleavant's comedy, the student/mentor relationship between Jerry and John, the heartfelt compassion of Wade and the friendship with all four. "The Breeder," in contrast, presents the sliders as so utterly poisonous that no viewer would want to spend any time with these people. If the worlds aren't compelling and the people aren't worthwhile, what exactly is the point of this series?

And finally, "The Breeder" turns the sliders into idiots and villains. They can't work together, instead fighting and arguing pointlessly and making every bad situation worse. They are incompetent in trying to save innocent people. Maggie murders several people throughout the episode and this has no emotional consequences for her, presenting a crassly indifferent view to human life that is totally at odds with SLIDERS' original faith in the power of ideas to save people's lives. And then the sliders condemn this world to a fate they inflicted upon it.

"The Breeder" features a poorly considered script that makes little to no use of the SLIDERS storytelling engine and is the production is fundamentally unprofessional in all areas of television storytelling. If you like this episode, you are simply wrong. I can prove it with charts.

The breeder parasites, this script, this episode and the entirety of its contents should be put in the ground, dug up, shot repeatedly to make sure its dead, buried again, and then expunged and erased from SLIDERS history.

Anyway. I made sure to include the breeder parasites in SLIDERS REBORN, specifically on Page 2 of the second script ("Reunion") and the parasites will return again in the sixth and final script. I'm sure you understand why.

Re: Why all the hate for the Breeder?

But I mean... What did you *really* think?

19 (edited by Grizzlor 2016-09-15 09:01:46)

Re: Why all the hate for the Breeder?

Species was a good movie, sequel not bad either.  Breeder again, terrible.  I actually asked Kari about this in a round-a-bout way, and even she admitted this and other such stories were horrendous.

Re: Why all the hate for the Breeder?

Informant wrote:

But I mean... What did you *really* think?

It is so obvious from watching "The Breeder" that nobody writing or producing this show has any respect for the concept or characters and that nobody in charge cares about this show or its viewers and fans. "The Breeder" is David Peckinpah and Alan Barnette looking at you, Surf Dance Chris and sliders5125, and telling you flat out, "We think you are worthless."

And yet... I think that when looking at a franchise, it's important to treat all of its past elements with love and respect even as you avoid their flaws. Tracy Tormé would beat me senseless for saying this, but I see no reason why SLIDERS can't do monster movies. Any story is conceivably a SLIDERS story.

But preferably, the result would be a SLIDERS story that happened to feature monsters ("Invasion") as opposed to a monster movie that happened to feature the sliders (Season 3). Admittedly, my favourite Season 3 monster is David Peckinpah.

In my view, creatures like the radioactive worm and the scarab and the breeder parasites originate from realities which seem to have been damaged by some cosmically indescribable event resulting in the (pseudo)scientific nature of reality having been bent and mis-shapen. However, I imagine that Quinn would declare that while the principles of science, logic and reason are bent, they are not broken.

In his view, each and every one of these supernatural and paranormal creatures operate on rules, just not the rules he'd expect.Understand the rules and the sliders can use reasoning and curiosity to identify a weakness.

In a real SLIDERS story that happens to feature a monster, the monsters themselves would represent insanity and mental illness and the sliders' defeating the monsters would represent the triumph of literacy, knowledge, ingenuity, teamwork and friendship.

Which is why, despite my utter loathing and contempt towards the rock star vampires, the breeder parasites, the dragon, the amusement park that feeds on negative emotions, the remote controlled car that shoots lasers and that... Cajero the Spirit of the Skys... thing... well, I accept that they are part of SLIDERS. The problem isn't the ideas; it's their execution and presentation.

Re: Why all the hate for the Breeder?

This has all been a very interesting read. Thank you for all the thoughtful responses/comments.

Re: Why all the hate for the Breeder?

On the Season 3 monsters in general -- I always figured Quinn and Arturo would whip up some inventive solutions with something of Torme's sense of humour -- such as where the key elements to defeating the zombies, animal-human hybrids, vampires, scarab and robots could be a stick of butter, a jar of aspirin, a tin of peanuts, an insulin kit, cough syrup and a case of golf balls. I've been thinking about this a lot.

Re: Why all the hate for the Breeder?

ireactions wrote:

On the Season 3 monsters in general -- I always figured Quinn and Arturo would whip up some inventive solutions with something of Torme's sense of humour -- such as where the key elements to defeating the zombies, animal-human hybrids, vampires, scarab and robots could be a stick of butter, a jar of aspirin, a tin of peanuts, an insulin kit, cough syrup and a case of golf balls. I've been thinking about this a lot.

Yes, what Sliders really needed was to be more like Macgyver

Re: Why all the hate for the Breeder?

pilight wrote:
ireactions wrote:

On the Season 3 monsters in general -- I always figured Quinn and Arturo would whip up some inventive solutions with something of Torme's sense of humour -- such as where the key elements to defeating the zombies, animal-human hybrids, vampires, scarab and robots could be a stick of butter, a jar of aspirin, a tin of peanuts, an insulin kit, cough syrup and a case of golf balls. I've been thinking about this a lot.

Yes, what Sliders really needed was to be more like Macgyver


I always felt I learned about penicillin from the Fever episode.   Seriously.  And I think its more what JRD wanted Sliders to be. So it could inspire young people around science, etc.

Re: Why all the hate for the Breeder?

pilight wrote:
ireactions wrote:

On the Season 3 monsters in general -- I always figured Quinn and Arturo would whip up some inventive solutions with something of Torme's sense of humour -- such as where the key elements to defeating the zombies, animal-human hybrids, vampires, scarab and robots could be a stick of butter, a jar of aspirin, a tin of peanuts, an insulin kit, cough syrup and a case of golf balls. I've been thinking about this a lot.

Yes, what Sliders really needed was to be more like Macgyver

Tom and Cory on the Rewatch Podcast and I had an interesting exchange with regards to the monster movie episodes of SLIDERS. We are not opposed to monster movies as a genre or as episodes of SLIDERS; it's just that the resulting monster movies should respect SLIDERS themes and values by providing internal consistency for how the monsters function matched with interesting solutions, none of which were present in the Season 3 monsters.

If two of the lead characters are scientists, that should be a factor in defeating the monsters. To fail to use that is lazy and careless. And the sliders aren't spies or soldiers; they're normal people who would use everyday objects to fight creatures from beyond reality, so of course their tools and weapons would be items the hardware and grocery sections of a superstore. What else would they be?

And if that makes SLIDERS comparable to one of the most successful TV shows of all time, a show that was lauded for its loving popularization of science, engineering, ingenuity, improvisation and clever solutions in the face of violent conflict -- well, why is that in any way a bad thing for a scientifically minded show like SLIDERS?

Unless you would propose an alternative to handling the monster genre in SLIDERS? I would be very keen on your input in this area as it concerns me greatly at the present.

Re: Why all the hate for the Breeder?

RussianCabbie_Lotteryfan wrote:

I always felt I learned about penicillin from the Fever episode.   Seriously.  And I think its more what JRD wanted Sliders to be. So it could inspire young people around science, etc.

Okay, now I seriously have to ask -- what exactly is your problem with SLIDERS REBORN's characterization of Quinn? For reasons I have yet to fathom, you took issue with Quinn in 2015 using sliding to discretely seed the Earth with technology like global wifi while also creating pipelines to rescue human trafficking victims, sneaking medicines into Red Cross supply storages and air-dropping condoms into Africa to fight the AIDS crisis.

I'm compiling my notes for the Rewatch Podcast on feedback I got regarding the scripts and yours reads, "RussianCabbie was opposed to Quinn using sliding to help victims of disease and slavery and ignorance for reasons he did not clarify." And yet here, you laud SLIDERS for using scientific principles to help people and remark favourably of an episode where Quinn is moved by how "sliding made a difference" in a production run full of episodes where Quinn dives headfirst into danger because he sees complete and total strangers in trouble. What is your deal!?!? I don't understand you!! I don't understand you!!!

27 (edited by RussianCabbie_Lotteryfan 2016-09-20 17:14:03)

Re: Why all the hate for the Breeder?

ireactions wrote:
RussianCabbie_Lotteryfan wrote:

I always felt I learned about penicillin from the Fever episode.   Seriously.  And I think its more what JRD wanted Sliders to be. So it could inspire young people around science, etc.

Okay, now I seriously have to ask -- what exactly is your problem with SLIDERS REBORN's characterization of Quinn? For reasons I have yet to fathom, you took issue with Quinn in 2015 using sliding to discretely seed the Earth with technology like global wifi while also creating pipelines to rescue human trafficking victims, sneaking medicines into Red Cross supply storages and air-dropping condoms into Africa to fight the AIDS crisis.

I'm compiling my notes for the Rewatch Podcast on feedback I got regarding the scripts and yours reads, "RussianCabbie was opposed to Quinn using sliding to help victims of disease and slavery and ignorance for reasons he did not clarify." And yet here, you laud SLIDERS for using scientific principles to help people and remark favourably of an episode where Quinn is moved by how "sliding made a difference" in a production run full of episodes where Quinn dives headfirst into danger because he sees complete and total strangers in trouble. What is your deal!?!? I don't understand you!! I don't understand you!!!

I guess I just never saw Quinn as selfless as you do. smile   Now, I could see Wade pushing him in the direction of the work you described, if he was madly in love with her and wanted to please her. 

I think he is all about doing the right thing and without a doubt a good samaritan, but the level of devotion to commit your life to use your power to help others does not strike me as fitting of what he'd do. I think he'd pursue in his life first and foremost based on what interested him while using it for good as much as he could. 

The thing is, I'm pretty sure my "I think" explanation won't work for you at all. smile  You're looking for a Sliderscourt type argument, so my answer here probably will not satisfy you.

Re: Why all the hate for the Breeder?

So let me get this straight -- the Quinn in REBORN has full control of sliding, has no need to worry about earning a living anymore, can devote his time to doing whatever he wants to do -- and in your view, it's not fitting for someone with nearly unlimited leisure time to put in some volunteer work to the greatest extent he can? And also in your view, the only way a wealthy and successful Quinn could possibly be convinced to engage in altruistic acts would be if sex were a motivating factor?

Are those Quinn Mallory's values? Or are they yours? Because if they are, then you are a diseased monstrosity of a human being.

So, now my notes to Rewatch Podcast read: "RussianCabbieLotteryFan found it deeply out of character for Quinn to be concerned with victims of the AIDS crisis or human trafficking or ignorance and thought it was unlikely that Quinn would use sliding to help people. However, he felt that it would make sense if Quinn were doing so in exchange for sexual favours from Wade."

Oh whatever. I give up. I usually summarize comments, but you come off so horrifically in summary that I'm just going to copy-paste your quotes directly into the file and leave it at that. You presented yourself as someone who thinks it's unbelievable to care about helping people; given a second chance to clear it up, you say it could make sense if helping people meant getting sex in return -- fine. On your own head be it.

29 (edited by RussianCabbie_Lotteryfan 2016-09-24 18:35:44)

Re: Why all the hate for the Breeder?

ireactions wrote:

So let me get this straight -- the Quinn in REBORN has full control of sliding, has no need to worry about earning a living anymore, can devote his time to doing whatever he wants to do -- and in your view, it's not fitting for someone with nearly unlimited leisure time to put in some volunteer work to the greatest extent he can? And also in your view, the only way a wealthy and successful Quinn could possibly be convinced to engage in altruistic acts would be if sex were a motivating factor?

Are those Quinn Mallory's values? Or are they yours? Because if they are, then you are a diseased monstrosity of a human being.

So, now my notes to Rewatch Podcast read: "RussianCabbieLotteryFan found it deeply out of character for Quinn to be concerned with victims of the AIDS crisis or human trafficking or ignorance and thought it was unlikely that Quinn would use sliding to help people. However, he felt that it would make sense if Quinn were doing so in exchange for sexual favours from Wade."

Oh whatever. I give up. I usually summarize comments, but you come off so horrifically in summary that I'm just going to copy-paste your quotes directly into the file and leave it at that. You presented yourself as someone who thinks it's unbelievable to care about helping people; given a second chance to clear it up, you say it could make sense if helping people meant getting sex in return -- fine. On your own head be it.

I said nothing about sex, only love wink

Don't you ever dare speak about my theories like that again. *storms out of classroom*

Re: Why all the hate for the Breeder?

Out of respect for our friendship, I am going to remove your quotes from my notes as I would prefer not to portray you in such an unflattering light.

31 (edited by RussianCabbie_Lotteryfan 2016-10-02 17:25:39)

Re: Why all the hate for the Breeder?

ireactions wrote:

Out of respect for our friendship, I am going to remove your quotes from my notes as I would prefer not to portray you in such an unflattering light.

Thanks

Re: Why all the hate for the Breeder?

What the hell is happening here?

Earth Prime | The Definitive Source for Sliders™

Re: Why all the hate for the Breeder?

Transmodiar wrote:

What the hell is happening here?

Just some fox executive - torme role playing, that's all. Ireactions wanted the Sliders Reborn showrunning experience to be as authentic as possible.

Re: Why all the hate for the Breeder?

Well, you fail - if for no other reason than you're both putting WAY too much thought into things. smile

Earth Prime | The Definitive Source for Sliders™

35 (edited by RussianCabbie_Lotteryfan 2016-10-03 21:13:55)

Re: Why all the hate for the Breeder?

Transmodiar wrote:

Well, you fail - if for no other reason than you're both putting WAY too much thought into things. smile

cool