Topic: Supernatural

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Re: Supernatural

Finally got around to binging the last 3 episodes of season 10.  Pretty incredible stuff.  If they were going to end the series, it would have been fitting.

Re: Supernatural

The show got better for sure.

Informant, have you caught up?  I think it's time for you to talk about (spoiler) dying.

Re: Supernatural

I have to find time to write up my thoughts on the season finales of a few shows. Soon, hopefully. It has been a weird few weeks.

Re: Supernatural

Okay! Finally have some time, so I'm going to see how many of these posts I can knock out...

A lot of people are complaining about the season, because the CW advertised it as the season of the "Dean-mon". Those people should know by now that commercials mean nothing. A season of demon Dean would be stupid, because you'd have to kill him in the end, and keep him dead. After a year of him slaughtering people on camera, you can't just snap him back to normal.

For what it was, I liked it. I thought for a while that they were setting the Stynes up to be the villains of next season, and I was really psyched about that, because it was a more human-based story. But setting them up and then having Dean wipe them out was pretty awesome. The thing was, I didn't see it as Dean going very dark. He wasn't evil. He wasn't demonic. He was just a really pissed off Dean with a little bit of extra juice.

If you ask me, Sam was turning more and more dark as the season went on, doing more questionable things than Dean was. So when we left it with Dean possibly killing Sam and then leaving this planet, I was thinking that it might actually happen for a second or two.

But backing up... Charlie.

Yes, I am thrilled that she is dead. I didn't like her. Her death was really weird for me though, because they totally Jenny Calendar-ed her off the show. Even as she heard somone knock at the door and they cut to commercial, i was like "Are they Jenny Calender-ing her?" The setup was pretty much the same, with her trying to crack the code that would let them perform the spell to restore Dean, and then when she dies, it was left out there for them to find. (at least floppy discs are out of style these days or it would have been an exact match).

Plus, we had the witch turned into a rodent... They were riffing on Buffy a lot this year.

Pretty much anything with Crowley in his lair is a waste of time and should be cut from the show. I hope that Castiel really does kill him. I am just ready for him to be gone. He is not a good villain. The king of Hell shouldn't be comic relief.

Okay, back to the finale...

Killing Death is weird. How does that even take? How do people die at that point? And was it really necessary?

Releasing the Darkness is interesting, but I'm not sure what to make of it yet. If it goes the way of the Leviathan, it will suck. They were a big, huge evil force that the writers threw out there and had no idea what to do with it, so they wound up wasting an entire season on crap. However, if they thought this through, it could be a really solid way of bringing some serious new darkness to the series, which has been lacking since the angels and demons started dragging their feet around. I guess we'll see.

Carver has an interesting arc working here. It reminds me of the first five seasons. While Gamble was going from year to year with no longterm plan, Carver came in with many seasons in mind, so I'm curious to see where he is going with it.

As it is, I can see the series' final season using Sam and Dean themselves as the monsters that need to be hunted. Not being turned into something new and weird, but just going down the path they put themselves on already, making all of these decisions that keep bringing evil, death and chaos into the world. I could see them being hunted, possibly even by people that we know and love from the past. Would it be cool to see John, Ellen, Jo, Rufus and Bobby hunting Sam and Dean as the series comes to an end? And for us to question which side we're on?

Or maybe it will go in an entirely different direction. But seriously, at some point, we have to acknowledge that most of the super big evil that people keep dying from on this show has been directly caused by the Winchesters making rather selfish decisions.

Re: Supernatural

I've been watching since the first episode in 2005 and I have to say that I like the earlier seasons the best, but I hear they are going back to basics and back to the old formula. I think season 11 should be the last season.

Re: Supernatural

I doubt that it will be. With a show like this, they would announce the last season in May, if not earlier. The writers would have to plan for it. They would make a big deal out of the last Supernatural ComicCon panel. It would be an event, not just a cancelation.

The show still gets good ratings. If this season really is a return to the feel of season 1, it could even help the show go on for longer.

8 (edited by omnimercurial 2015-07-15 07:31:41)

Re: Supernatural

I was on a Buffy Fansite recently and the Cancelled Faith the Series came up.
It was said that such a Series would have been Supernatural before Supernatural.
If Eliza Dushka had not committed to Tru Calling anyway.....

It was also discussed that Wesley's Character Arc of "Rogue Demon Hunter" turned Competent and then "End Justifies the Means" was originally envisioned for Xander during his Road Trip period with Guest appearances on Angel the Series and Faith the Series.
Apparently Nicholas Brendons Alcoholism becoming an issue at this time is what scrapped that.

Other cancelled Plot Developments discussed were:

Xander being Gay not Willow.
And
Xander being the Human Host to Glorificus.
And
Xander being scheduled to Die in the last Season.

I have seen a little of the Show Grimm which is good but the Supernatral early Season Travels and lack of Power Creep ala Dragon Ball Z are my preferrence.

I did enjoy Season 1 of Angel the Series too. The Noir Feel and Tone was a refreshing change to Buffy's format.

I was sad that was lost in later Angel Seasons.

"It's only a matter of time. Were I in your shoes, I would spend my last earthly hours enjoying the world. Of course, if you wish, you can spend them fighting for a lost cause.... But you know that you've lost." -Kane-

Re: Supernatural

omnimercurial wrote:

If Eliza Dushka had not committed to Tru Calling anyway.....

After speaking to her about Tru, I got the clear impression she regretted that choice.

Re: Supernatural

I think that Xander always got the short end of the stick. I was always bothered that whenever a male lead left the show, they would bring in someone new to fill the role, rather than allow Xander to become the male lead.

But for the record, neither he nor Willow should have been gay. In fact, I would say that calling Willow bi would be pushing it. She didn't love Tara. She loved what Tara could offer her.

Re: Supernatural

I also wonder whether Nick's personal issues influenced how his character was written later in the series?

Re: Supernatural

Probably, which is sad.

Re: Supernatural

Informant wrote:

I think that Xander always got the short end of the stick. I was always bothered that whenever a male lead left the show, they would bring in someone new to fill the role, rather than allow Xander to become the male lead.

But for the record, neither he nor Willow should have been gay. In fact, I would say that calling Willow bi would be pushing it. She didn't love Tara. She loved what Tara could offer her.

I'd agree with that.

I disliked the Gay Development too because it did not fit.

If a Character had been intended to be Gay from the outset then a smooth development and reveal would have occured. Instead it was literally and I quote "Gay now" ugh.....

Willow clearly Loved and Lusted after Xander in S1 & 2 depiction so Purely Gay does not work as it was made. Bi at a Stretch but yeah... Badly handled all around.

"It's only a matter of time. Were I in your shoes, I would spend my last earthly hours enjoying the world. Of course, if you wish, you can spend them fighting for a lost cause.... But you know that you've lost." -Kane-

Re: Supernatural

Grizzlor wrote:

I also wonder whether Nick's personal issues influenced how his character was written later in the series?

Well it seems Joss behaved a bit like Peckinpah re Wade and Arturo with Charisma Carpenter on Angel when she got Pregnant and wrote her out the negative way he did to take out his frustrations with the Actress on the Character.

She did reappear later but only in a minor guest role later to keep the Fans happy and shut up calls for her to rejoin the Cast.

Pregnancy may cause some issues on a show it's true but it was a very poorly done method he chose that seemed fueled by Tantrum when he could have kept her on cast for the Shows sake in a more professional manner.

Cordy's Canon demise felt very much like a Wade Welles moment to me.

Xander Character always got a rough deal with Character Development being rewound (Case in point being when Xander faced his fears and Punched the Killer Clown in the Early Season Forbidden Planet esque Nightmares made Real Episode) but the Alcoholism playing a part in that worsening post Season 3 seems believable given the CC events.

Apparantly though NB's colleagues on BTVS did fight to keep him on the Show so that may be why Xander was not killed off back then.

There is also a Youtube Clip out there with an interview with one of the BTVS Writers or Directors of Later Seasons which pretty blatantly has her saying she was a Fan of Early BTVS before being hired and had a Grudge/Dislike of the Xander Character ever since "The Lie" from the Acathla incident in S2 which seems damning to me. This is a person with Creative Control on a Show who is allowing her own Fan Perspective/Opinion to impact Character Arcs and Scripts. Is it any wonder we see Later Season Xander be Dumbded down and made a Simplified Characature in the Late Seasons.

Joss Whedon early on is noted to have said a Lot of Xander was based on him so I imagine he intended Growth as well as Comic Relief elements but somewhere along the line that changed. He was rather Hands Off on Buffy though while dabbling with Angel the Series too though so there is that I guess.

"It's only a matter of time. Were I in your shoes, I would spend my last earthly hours enjoying the world. Of course, if you wish, you can spend them fighting for a lost cause.... But you know that you've lost." -Kane-

Re: Supernatural

Season 11 has started out pretty well. I like that they are taking more time to care about saving people and not just worrying about themselves. It feels right for this show.

The Darkness/Amara story could go either way at this point. Obviously, they need to build it up over the entire season and if they came out too big, there would be noplace for it to go. So far, it's cool. A little bit of a throwback to Lilith and also the Croatoan virus, but thus far it is leaps and bounds above the Leviathans (which I thought they were in danger of rehashing, which would just be crap on top of crap).

Castiel... I guess it's okay. They need to give Jensen and Jared some time off and at least Castiel has something going on this time and isn't aimlessly wandering around. I'd still prefer less demons and angels, but I doubt that this season will go that way. I can only hope that they are used well. So far, not bad. But do all of the angels have to be bad guys? I don't imagine that this show is going over well in Heaven right now.

Crowley was well used in episode 2. He was used the way that he should be used. The problem is the way he was used in episode 1 (which is the way he is usually used). It didn't fit the tone of the rest of the episode. It was silly and useless comic relief, which is the wrong way to go for the King of Hell. Crowley should not be a series regular. He should be brought in as needed, when he can serve a purpose. Most of his scenes last year could be cut while only improving the episodes in the process. I don't need to see his throne room. I don't need to see him in some random, wacky 70's throwback orgy scenario. When he is around, he should be imposing.

Honestly, I've been hoping for his death for years. Of all of the demons who could have taken over Hell, why did we get stuck with him?


The bulk of this season is solid thus far. I like the way they're hinting at God and what's going on in the Cage. I wouldn't mind seeing Adam show up again. They hinted at him last year for the first time since season 6, which got my hopes up. But if they bring in Michael and Lucifer, I just hope that they don't rehash what we've already gone through on the show. I hope they use it to close the door on a lot of the Heaven/Hell mythology once and for all, and they move in a different direction once this arc is complete.

Re: Supernatural

I usually will not watch later seasons of a show until I have seen the preceding ones but I broke my own rule with Supernatural last week.

I'm totally lost to be honest. I'm glad of a return to making a difference little by little though. Saving people should be a good 50% of what being a Hunter should be about anyway.

"It's only a matter of time. Were I in your shoes, I would spend my last earthly hours enjoying the world. Of course, if you wish, you can spend them fighting for a lost cause.... But you know that you've lost." -Kane-

Re: Supernatural

What do we think of this season?  I think the Darkness is a relatively compelling villain.  I think the Lucifer stuff is interesting, but it is just a retread of season 5.  I thought the show might reference it - it's usually meta enough to comment on itself when it's being repetitive.

At some point, they either need to have God show up or stop mentioning him.

Re: Supernatural

Overall, I've enjoyed the season a lot. But mainly, I've enjoyed it because they've had great stand-alone episodes. The Darkness and the demons and the angels, I just don't feel. "God's Sister" is a vague threat that seemed like a big deal in last year's finale, but she hasn't actually done much since.

The problem with showing the behind the scenes workings of the angel and demon worlds is that once we see them all standing around, whining about stupid things that don't really matter, while going on and on about how evil they are, the thrill is gone. In the early years, when a demon or an angel showed up, we saw them through the eyes of the Winchesters, and killing them was the goal of every scene. Now, they don't kill each other even when they have the chance, and we're stuck watching scenes about Crowley having group sex.

The whole time we were watching Lucifer, I was thinking, "Why is he in that body? Why hasn't anyone considered talking to Michael, who is at least a little bit less of a threat? And where is Adam? Why doesn't anyone care about Adam?! And for that matter, where is Castiel?" It was distracting.
Sam never should have gone to Hell. The conversation should have been handled through a vision or a dream. That's it.

I just don't feel the threat of the Darkness. They keep wanting to go bigger and bigger, but the show shines in the small, human stories. The bigger they go, the more disconnected it becomes.

Like I said, most of the season has been great. It's just the main arc that I usually can't get into. Fortunately, that hasn't been every episode. At least 6 of the 9 episodes so far have been solid.

Re: Supernatural

"Don't You Forget About Me" was a great episode. People on Twitter are already calling for a Wayward Daughters spinoff, and I think that it could actually work. Maybe add Eileen from last week's episode.

But then again, maybe it would be best to just keep these women on Supernatural for now. The dinner scene was really interesting to me, because it actually felt like a family dinner. i was surprised by how much Sam and Dean belonged there, and it wasn't a fake or forced relationship (like with Charlie). It was all completely honest. I would much rather see that group together on the show than more Castiel or Crowley. Maybe add Cole back into the mix (don't kill his family though. it's been done already)

Re: Supernatural

I haven't watched yet, but I'm relieved that you liked it.  When I heard Wayward Daughters, I thought it was something you might not be a fan of.

Re: Supernatural

Another good episode this week. Then I saw the preview for next week, with Castiel and Crowley, and I had to just sigh. The show is so good when they're not in it!

Now on a completely unrelated note... I was thinking about the future of the show. Jeremy Carver is working on another project, so I started wondering what would happen next, if someone else took over (there is no sign that he won't be there, but I was just wondering anyway). It could be cool to have a fresh take and a new direction, if it was the right direction (I wasn't a fan of Sera Gamble's two seasons as showrunner).

Anyway, this let to me wondering what I would do if I were chosen to run the show. And I decided that I would implement my plan to scale it way back, and make it way more personal and human-based. For starters, I would get rid of Crowley and Castiel. I would do this by introducing a new hunter, who takes on the task of closing the gate to Hell, which Sam never finished. Crowley would be banished for good.

Castiel... I don't know. But he would be cut back on and only appear for special events.

Then, the main arc/villain. My idea is to use John Winchester (or if he wasn't available for a whole season, maybe Jo Harvelle). In the season premiere, Sam and Dean are fighting some normal monster. For once, they don't have a huge apocalyptic event to handle and things look relatively calm. They're actually comfortable.
At the end of the episode, John Winchester walks into a diner. He is disoriented. Something isn't right with him.

As the season goes on, we see John exploring a little. He discovers that Bobby, Ellen, Jo and a number of other hunters that he knows are dead. Most of them, in fact. This disturbs him quite a bit, as you can imagine.

He calls Sam's phone, but when Sam answers and hear's John's voice, he reacts as you might expect him to. John ends the call, not knowing what is going on. So, he decides to track down his boys and figure out what's happening.

When he first sees Sam and Dean, they think he is a monster or a ghost. They eventually come around to believing that he is for real, but he's acting strange. When they tell him what's happened since he died, John loses it. Especially when he hears that Adam is also dead. This is wrong. This isn't the way things were supposed to turn out.

Sam and Dean tell him that they did their best, but they're struggling to keep their heads above water. They were alone.

To this, John responds that no, they weren't. At least, they weren't supposed to be. They were supposed to have a whole group of people helping them. Their hunter family. But something has changed. He didn't make the deal with Yellow-Eyes to save Dean. He didn't die. Bobby didn't die. Ellen and Jo never died. He is a little hesitant to tell Sam and Dean exactly what happened to them, but he does tell them that he was there when Sam discovered that his entire life had been manipulated. He was there when the angel was was being organized. He's been there this whole time.

At some point, John went back in time, because he needed to fix things. He needed to make them right. But in doing so, he unraveled everything. This timeline isn't supposed to exist. He needs to find a way to set things right, but he doesn't know how.

Now, at first, this sounds great. Sam and Dean are a little unsure, but if John is telling the truth, they could get back all of the people that they've lost, and all it would cost them was years of bad decisions and suffering.

But, John isn't being entirely open with them. He won't tell them exactly what did happen to them in his timeline. Eventually, we learn that he really never made the deal to save Dean. Dean died after the first season finale... But, of course, that couldn't stick. The angels brought Dean back a few months later, but isolated him. He said yes to Michael before Lucifer ever got out of the cage.

While Sam was toyed with and pressured, and was still manipulated by Ruby and drank the demon blood and all of that, John stopped him before Lucifer was released. The apocalypse was averted, and the only real casualty of that battle was Dean, who was worn by Michael until his body was eventually destroyed. That was what John was going back for. He saved Dean, but got everyone else killed in the process.

So, this is the arc for the season. How can they set things right? But if they do, Dean dies, right? Dean is willing, but Sam isn't as eager. He's not even sure that they can trust John. How do they know that any of it is for real? How do they know that they won't just be giving Lucifer another shot at the apocalypse if they change things? The only reality they know is this one.

John isn't necessarily villain, but what he is doing is going to at least get Dean killed. More than that, it could end up changing the outcome of the apocalypse. John is sure of his goal, but Sam and Dean aren't. Do they stop him, or help him?

And if things are changed, what would the season after that look like?

Re: Supernatural

That would be interesting.  I still really like my idea for a season where the rules get rewritten somehow.  Maybe they defeat the Darkness, and it throws the universe into chaos to the point where all the lore is worthless.  Wooden stake doesn't kill vampires.  Silver doesn't kill werewolves.  Nothing that used to work works.

So you have this situation where Sam and Dean are fighting, say, a wendigo (because that's the example they always use).  Something they could kill with their eyes closed.  Except it doesn't work.  They find a way to kill it, but they have to get creative.  Reading a book and finding the magic bullet doesn't work anymore.

But while Sam and Dean are able to survive because they're the best, a TON of hunters around the world are dying.  They show up expecting one thing, and it isn't working.  I can see this montage of hunters from all over the place using tricks we've seen and then dying.  So Sam and Dean look around and things are bad.  And they realize that the hunter community needs them.  So they start working together.  They're traveling around, establishing a network of hunters, and they're sharing info.  Every week, they'd pair with a new hunter or face an old monster in a totally new way.  "We heard Linda in the Czech Republic says gold bullets work on vampires.  And Hideo in Japan says that rugaru can be taken down by iron weapons"

And what would be cool for me is the idea that you'd have this international community of hunters.  You could spin off a show, or you could keep the show going indefinitely once Jensen and Jared get tired of it.  Or if you just want to end it there, you have these boys really living John's legacy - literally writing the book on hunting like John's Journal 2.0.  The season would be almost all monsters - very small and intimate with not much tying it together besides building this community and learning what kills what.

And, yeah, maybe heaven and hell get closed off during this time.  So no angels and no demons.  But my favorite part would be watching these two guys struggle again.  Because whenever it's a ghost episode, the conflict is always just figuring out what it is.  Once they see it's a ghost, they get salt and iron and it's over.  But what if figuring out it was a ghost was only half the problem because they had *no idea* how to kill it?  So they're using gold and silver and wood and water and throwing everything they can think of until it works.

And maybe you'd even get the monsters figuring things out.  Because werewolves know to stay away from silver - it's in their DNA.  But what if it wasn't dangerous anymore?  But literally anything else could be.  You could have an episode where vampires are dying out because human blood is poisonous now (like dead man's blood was before).  They don't know what to eat anymore.  They're starving. 

I know I've thrown this idea out before, but it's so cool to me.  And I know reaction to it has been lukewarm, but I think it hits so many areas that you'd want in a season, Info smile

Re: Supernatural

That idea could definitely be cool. But it would have to be handled delicately. What makes the show work is that they use real myths and urban legends. So the new method to kill things couldn't just be a random discovery (like Borax killing Leviathans), it would have to be something that still makes sense to those monsters in some way. Having a ghost stopped by throwing a stuffed elephant at them would be wrong, but having them stopped by something that was still related to the life/death theme would still be interesting. It would have to be a real mystery, not a bunch of head scratching, followed by a McGuffin.

Re: Supernatural

Yeah and that'd work.  I just like the idea of throwing these guys into a situation they can't control.  Because, let's be honest, they're basically Superman when it comes to most monsters.  To the point where the actual fight in the episode is the most boring part.  I meant to mention it, but I'd definitely *seriously* injure one or both brothers in their first fight.  Not dead and not even something that would be ongoing for too long.  But I'd want to raise the stakes.  Imagine Dean walking into a den of vampires, limping a bit, with Sam acting sorta like Oracle because he's too hurt.  All by himself.  Armed to the teeth but with no idea how to take them out.  Rock salt shotgun blast?  Nope - tosses it to the side.  Bronze knife?  Incapacitates him but nope.  Golden bullets as he's surrounded?  Nope.  One jumps him from behind and is about to bite him when he grabs a crystal dagger which kills the vamp immediately.  After that, it's a piece of cake as usual.

Re: Supernatural

So......Chuck Shurley.

It's an interesting gambit to play.  I think most fans assumed that Chuck was God, and the show has been dealing with God more the last couple of seasons.  I think it's only fair for him to show up.  I was sorta fascinated by the characterization of God, and I thought it was pretty cool that the show went there.  Especially in a non-season finale.

What's interesting is where do they go from here?  And I don't really mean this season - I think it's quite clear that God will help Sam and Dean defeat Amara in the next few episodes, and life will go on.

The question is - what happens in the future?  Now Sam and Dean are going to have an actual conversation with God.  I assume he's going to end up helping them.  How does that affect Dean, who's been less of a believer in God (as a force of good)?  And what could they possibly do with the show next year if God is somehow present again?  Is there any way that God has to sacrifice himself to defeat Amara?  And that's why Chuck/God was afraid to leave the bar area?  Or is God going to go back into exile after this?  Or is God going to return to Heaven and we move away from angel/demon stuff?

I thought defeating Lucifer was going to be something the show couldn't top.  Now that God is involved, I don't know where they go from here.

(And, for the record, I still can't imagine the show ever has a better ending than season 5's.  Outside of the Sam cliffhanger, I think it's the most satisfying end to any show I've ever seen)

Re: Supernatural

I still consider season 5's finale to be a series finale. I just view the whole Supernatural series like books, with 1-5 being one book. 6 and 7 standing alone as books of their own, and then 8-11 as another longer book. There will never be anything that would ruin the arc of 1-5 and it could be watched to that point with a solid sense of closure.

Jeremy Carver came in saying that he had a three years plan, starting with season 8, but later said that once he realized that the show was going longer, he kinda spread things out and dropped some more material in there. I am hoping that this season is another one of those "final season" arcs, so next year can go somewhere new.

What I hope to see is God taking care of Amara, so she goes away. That arc has been a weak spot this season, but fortunately, the majority of the episodes have been really solid stand alone episodes. Once he takes down Amara, he should go back to Heaven and close the door on that. No more angel arcs on the show.

If I had my way, the gateway to Hell would be closed too, and the place would go back to being the prison that it's meant to be. Which means that it would need a warden, not a ruler. I'm thinking Castiel. Angels and demons should go back to being legends that even hunters don't always believe in.

And next year, we get something new. I've already explained my thoughts on what they could do with it.


As for the characterization of God... I have to try to separate my actual beliefs from the story on a TV show. God walking around as Chuck steps on some Jesus toes. But then again, they can't explore a character who can't appear, so... yeah.

There were some things that I didn't like about the characterization, because God has never been absent on the show. He has only been subtle. But in the last few minutes, once we realized that his entire deadline was about facing Amara, he because more like what he's always been on the show. He was always going to step in. He never stopped caring. He allowed Metatron to beat up on him without really reacting to it. And in some ways, I think that was about saving Metatron and getting him back on track. Because that was a very interesting arc for Metatron in the episode, going from the snotty guy we always knew, to being scared, to being angry, to being humble.

As I was watching the episode, I worried that the bar scene would be like one of the horrible Crowley throne room scenes where they talk and talk without saying or doing anything, and it just wastes time. But by the end of the episode, it turned out to be pretty emotional. The second Chuck becomes God, when Metatron realizes what has happened and stands there, realizing that God would sacrifice himself for humanity, was beautifully played. And then taking that moment to Sam and Dean, in an unwinnable moment of their own, as Dean discovers the amulet and he and Sam realize what it means. That was an emotional moment that felt genuinely earned.

So, I walked away happy. Mostly because they didn't betray the character that God has always been on the show. He was still a question mark at the end of the episode. The whole conversation between him and Metatron wasn't about explaining God at all. Interesting.

Re: Supernatural

Yeah, I honestly thought it was one of their more human episodes yet.  Definitely able to build on 11 years of stories, and I thought it was really well done.  When it was finished, I kept on the DVR.  I might watch it again before the finale or after it.

Re: Supernatural

SUPERNATURAL started as a crappy X-FILES clone, but it's come to have some very meaningful reflections on free will, divinity, choice, consequence and theology. I really liked Chuck's frustrated rant about why he abdicated as God; "The training wheels have to come off! Nobody likes a helicopter parent" followed by pointing out that he has constantly resurrected Sam and Dean and Castiel only for them to make lousy choices. I remember, in the Season 2 finale, feeling annoyed that Sam and Dean were responsible for unleashing armies of demons upon the world in opening the doorway to hell; Chuck now expresses that same exasperation. And I liked how, when Chuck intervenes once again, it's done with the indication that further intervention will be at the cost of his continued existence; he won't be absent or indifferent; he'll be dead. Hopefully, Chuck will bring Felicia Day back to life before he goes -- which would, of course, trigger an existential crisis of faith in Informant and promptly cause him to lose all confidence in Chuck.

Re: Supernatural

I hope they don't kill off Chuck as they get rid of Amara. We already know what things look like when he isn't in Heaven running things. It would be much more interesting to see him step in there and with Hell, while leaving humans to make their own choices on Earth, knowing the consequences.

If he does manage to bring anyone back from the dead, I hope it isn't a second-rate (third?) character like Charlie. I would rather see Bobby, John, Ellen, Jo, Rufus, Sarah, Jess, or pretty much any random casualty of the week, before I would want Charlie back.

I still like the idea of a type of Supernatural Elite Squad of dead people hunting rogue something-or-others. But without Charlie.

Re: Supernatural

It struck me that SUPERNATURAL actually divorced itself from religion and theology with this episode of SUPERNATURAL where we finally get Chuck's point of view. He was masquerading as Chuck in every previous episode; everytime Chuck expressed fear or suicidal impulses, it was a performance, albeit a performance where he began transitioning into the Chuck persona so deeply that it became his identity as God as well.

"Don't Call Me Shurley" point-blank declares that God isn't omnipotent or omniscient, nor does he have a grand design or any kind of plan for existence. The human race, Earth and the angels were simply "experiments" and his creations often had unexpected situations and results such as turning evil, resurrecting brothers better off dead or demonic, etc.. Chuck claims he "barely" contained Amara the first time and that he also couldn't predict future events, which would explain why his maneuvering Sam and Dean into containing Lucifer saw the subsequent apocalypse that led to the Leviathans escaping.

So what it comes down to is that everything in the SUPERNATURAL universe exists due to a series of accidents from a being who may seem all-powerful from a human perspective but is actually flawed and vulnerable and capable of severe errors in judgement. God in SUPERNATURAL doesn't lord over existence; he merely originated it and then chose to step back, which largely removes Chuck's authorial presence from controlling events to merely chronicling them.

If anything, this makes Chuck even more of a representation of Eric Kripke, with the only slight shift being that in a real-world context, Chuck doesn't solve everything because that would make it impossible to tell SUPERNATURAL stories whereas in-universe, perhaps further divine intervention would warp the SUPERNATURAL universe and demolish free will and self-actualization.

Re: Supernatural

ireactions wrote:

If anything, this makes Chuck even more of a representation of Eric Kripke, with the only slight shift being that in a real-world context, Chuck doesn't solve everything because that would make it impossible to tell SUPERNATURAL stories whereas in-universe, perhaps further divine intervention would warp the SUPERNATURAL universe and demolish free will and self-actualization.

Yeah, I think Chuck's line about writing "Revolution" cemented the idea that God is Kripke.

Re: Supernatural

The Revolution line was funny.

But I'm still not sure how much of Chuck's conversation with Metatron was true. It seemed to just be pushing Metatron more and more, until Metatron was essentially redeemed and made better. Obviously, the whole basis of that conversation was false. Chuck was always planning to help. So most of what he said that was false.

All I know for sure right now is that he has always been around and always stepped in when needed, and he always planned on helping now.

Re: Supernatural

I see nothing onscreen to indicate that Chuck's sentiments (not wanting to get involved, allowing Amara to destroy Earth) were anything but genuine -- and I don't see anything onscreen to suggest that Chuck deciding to intervene at the end of the episode wasn't a decision spurred by Metatron convincing him to do so.

Re: Supernatural

During the episode, he spoke of having a deadline to meet and needing to get his book done in time. Given how the episode ended, I took that to mean that he had been planning to step in the whole time.

Re: Supernatural

It seems rather arbitrary to me to declare that everything Chuck in this episode was a lie because he's been involved in previous episodes, especially when those past episode are addressed in dialogue. Chuck outright states that his appearances in Seasons 4 - 5 were because he wanted a "good seat" for the Apocalypse and that "acting's fun" and later, Metatron says that the "deadline" is Amara destroying all of reality, which Chuck doesn't deny at all. The episode repeatedly highlights how Chuck can't / doesn't / won't control people. And also, if Chuck was going to get involved all along, it would undermine what this episode has to say about Chuck stepping back from reality to encourage choice and free will -- which he demonstrates by deciding to intervene in Amara's fog.

Re: Supernatural

Stepping in with Amara is the one time when it really doesn't have anything to do with free will. She isn't his creation. He didn't give her free will. She is an outside force that has nothing to do with the world, yet threatens to destroy it.

Re: Supernatural

It struck me as making the point that Chuck has free will; that he can make decisions (such as in Season 5 when he declared through Joshua that he was done interfering with humanity and angels and demons) and then note that occasionally, his children need a hand and he has to step in now and then.

The main point this episode made, at least for me, is that Chuck isn't THE God of the Bible, the divine shaper of all existence and events. Chuck is just the guy who originated existence in the way you or I might produce children without planning and controlling every aspect of their lives. And every child has to realize that their parents and caregivers aren't infallible and perfect and are in fact no less prone to error and screwups.

Re: Supernatural

The thing for me is that... maybe. I still don't really have a handle on the character, despite the big reveal that Chuck is God. Some or all of what he said could be true, or some or all of it could be false. Either way, it served a purpose and made for compelling TV. But the character is still a question mark.

Re: Supernatural

I always thought the show had generally compared God (as opposed to Chuck) to John Winchester, specifically in Season 4 - 5 where the angels, in the absence of God, are running along their pre-determined course to bring about the Apocalypse, deprived of free will much as John took away Sam and Dean's choices and drafted them into monster hunting. Dean explicitly describes God (again, as opposed to Chuck) as a "deadbeat dad with a lot of excuses."

In Season 6, it's revealed that Castiel, after Lucifer was sealed, immediately announced to the angels that God had given them all their freedom, which would appear to be the end goal of God subsuming himself entirely in the Chuck personality and only intervening in small ways (rescuing Sam and Dean and providing them with exposition to get them in the same place). Once the angels had free will and the Apocalypse was averted, God retired entirely and Chuck became the whole personality.

Of course, this led to additional problems: the free-willed angels were eager to get the Apocalypse back on track, much to God and Castiel's dismay. Castiel unlocked the Leviathans, Sam unlocked Amara, Lucifer impersonated God by using John Winchester's face in visions for Sam and Chuck threw his hands in the air and gave up.

I thought it was pretty neat how Rob Benedict maintain's Chuck's affable, vulnerable persona until Megatron calls him a coward, at which point Benedict affects an enraged, vengeful presence and his face seems like little more than a mask for a terrifying force behind it, only for the final scenes to see both sides of Chuck merged into one as Chuck plays the guitar. Also, the episode seems to be annoying people who are always fun to annoy with its apparently offensive claims that Chuck is hands-off and is in some ways inferior to humans.

Re: Supernatural

That's always been the funny part of Supernatural's take on God though. They call him a deadbeat, but only because they don't realize that he has stepped in to help them over and over again.

I don't think that the apocalypse of seasons 4 and 5 was pre-determined. I think it was fast-tracked and sloppy, which is why it wasn't allowed to happen. The true end times aren't about destroying the world. The real apocalypse, as told in the Bible, has some doom and gloom, but is ultimately a happy ending. Michael wanted to force God's hand, so he decided to jump start the end of the world. It was a tantrum, but it was all about them having free will already. One of the reveals of those early angel episodes was that the angels were doing their own thing and not necessarily God's will.

So yeah, they played God like John, being a deadbeat dad. But as with John, things weren't that simple. John wasn't *just* a bad father. The character was more complex than that.

This is what I've always loved about Supernatural's take on God. It's how people view him in real life. They see a body count and ask why God would let that happen, but they don't think about how many people could have died, or should have died. They don't see the little miracles, because they have a long list of things that they want to happen instead. No matter how much God does for them, someone they love will eventually die and they will blame God for it. (not everyone, but a lot of people)
What they really want is a genie, with an infinite number of wishes.

I agree that Rob Benedict did a great job in that episode. There were so man layers to play. And for that matter, Curtis Armstrong took a character that has been pretty annoying for a long time now, and really brought Metatron's arc around in a great way. The anger and the lashing out, the disappointment, the genuine concern for humanity, and finally that moment when he realizes what is happening and he looks so humbled to be in the presence of God. Both actors did really well. As I said, I was worried that it was going to become another waste of an hour, like when Crowley sits in his throne room, talking about how evil he is. But the scenes between those two could be turned into a film of its own.

Re: Supernatural

Supernatural is in for some new showrunners. I was kinda expecting this, I just wasn't sure who would get the job.

Robert Singer and Andrew Dabb will be taking over from Jeremy Carver. Presumably, Carver's arc is ending this year. Both guys have been with the show for years, so I have high hopes.

I like that this show changes hands like this. With most shows, it would be a bad sign. With Supernatural, it is almost like a comic book. New people come in for specific arcs and then leave. I just hope that they have a clear plan for the next arc of the series.

Re: Supernatural

Robert Singer has been part of running the show since Season 1; he was Eric Kripke's partner and he's been involved in the show ever since. However, I don't really see Singer as a story-oriented producer. Although he weighs in and encourages and discourages certain things, he's more of a practical producer -- sets, actors, locations, filming schedules, makeup budgets, etc..

A huge part of SUPERNATURAL's excellence is that they know what they can and can't do well on a TV budget and they have a very skillful approach to rendering wars in heaven and the Apocalypse in a way that feels convincing without breaking the bank. And a lot of that is Robert Singer's experience as a director and producer, helping the writers realize their stories in a way that can be filmed and aired with the resources they have -- like saying that having the angels teleport onscreen would be too costly, but having them disappear from the frame between cuts would be effective.

Singer's expertise is why SUPERNATURAL has generally been able to avoid embarrassments like SMALLVILLE building up a Clark/Doomsday fight that lasted 30 seconds or having an 'epic' Season 10 finale consisting of people standing around talking. However, I don't see Singer has having as strong a voice as a writer -- he's more a guy who helps other writers execute their stories workably and visually while giving dialogue a bit of a polish like adding Dean's wisecracks.

SUPERNATURAL has had a lot of writers leave because they'd used up their ideas and felt it was time to move on before they started hacking out their work. Singer, despite being on the show since Season 1, has never experienced this and I think it's because he's not called upon to create ideas, but to help other people realize their ideas.

Andrew Dabb has been on the show since Season 4 and produced many fine scripts.The only script of his I really disliked was that absurd "Bloodlines" backdoor pilot.

Re: Supernatural

It is possible that Singer is partnering with Dabb because either A. Dabb is a good story guy but not a good business guy.
Or
B. The powers that be aren't sure of Dabb's ability to run a series and want someone there to back him up.

I assume that Singer won't suddenly become a big writing guy after all this time, right?

That said, I sincerely hope that anything remotely like Bloodlines  is left out of this show.

Re: Supernatural

Singer has partnered with every showrunner on SUPERNATURAL from the creator of the series to Sera Gamble and Jeremy Carver. It's nothing new. Singer did take a slight reduction in responsibilities Season 11 so that he wasn't managing things day to day as much as he used to, but his role wasn't any different. I don't think Singer will be writing much of anything; his credits on SUPERNATURAL for writing were largely when somebody else's script needed to be rewritten, giving him a co-writing credit. As for "Bloodlines," that seemed to be a clear case of too much interference reducing the script to a painful mess rather than any reflection on Dabb himself.

Re: Supernatural

Well if that was the end of a 3-year arc, it wasn't that bad.  I thought they handled the God thing pretty well, he's out of the picture again, and it was wrapped up pretty nicely.

I was actually hoping to have an ending sorta like the ending of Arrow this season.  Where there wasn't a real cliffhanger or anything - just two weary hunters not knowing what's next.  The two cliffhangers were pretty interesting - I don't know what bringing back Mary accomplishes (and why couldn't John also come back), but assuming Sam isn't actually dead, hunters hunting the Winchesters could be a pretty cool storyline.

What did you guys think?

Re: Supernatural

I finally got around to watching the finale this past weekend and I think it did some things really well, but it wasn't 100% great.

For starters, Amara was a problem this season. I don't think that she was a 22 episode villain. A lot of what was done with her seemed like stalling, and in doing that, they kinda repeated the Lilith storyline a bit. She was also a vague villain, so it was hard to grasp onto what she was, what she wanted, what she felt, etc. The show thrives in urban legends and using established myths to fuel their show. This was an attempt to retcon the Bible, and while they have succeeded with that a bit in the past, this one was a little too big and a little too scattered. I'm not sure that Amara worked as what she was supposed to be.

The same character could have been some completely different force that was designed to destroy creation. A fail safe or whatever. The "God's sister" thing... I don't know.

I liked a lot of about the last four episodes, but I feel like they could have accomplished all of that good stuff in one or two episodes, rather than four. There was a lot of sitting and talking and shaking of fists. Last week felt epic, until everyone who went up against Amara survived for no good reason. Crowley and Rowena should have died, along with Lucifer. They should have cleaned house and made this a big deal. But it wasn't. In the finale, most of the characters were sitting in a bar, doing nothing at all.

And I think that Chuck would have been better served as a character by keeping him limited to two episodes, rather than four. As it is, I'm left wondering if it was worth the reveal. Was it worth having them go as far as they could go, and removing the biggest mystery in the universe to the guys? They're drinking buddies with God, so where do they go now? The push and pull on that subject, with Sam believing and Dean's anger fueled disbelief, was an interesting element.

As it was, I guess the storyline resolved the best way it could have. It just wasn't something that could have been resolved very well.

Meanwhile, I'm kinda wondering why the cage in Hell shouldn't be opened and tossed out now. Should Michael and Adam remain in Lucifer's prison cell forever?


The parts that set up next season were interesting. While the "upper class" element rarely works for Supernatural (big business Leviathans, for example), it is a contrast to the hunter world that the guys have always lived in. It's interesting to have a human element as the main threat, and a very personal danger, rather than a global danger. I like that they're cutting way back in that regard. And the Men of Letters have a legitimate issue with the Winchesters. We can't say that the MoL are really "bad guys" when they're trying to take out the dudes who have nearly caused the end of the world several times over by now. I like that they don't have a mustache-twirling villain. This could be cool.

Mary coming back is interesting. Do we know for sure that it's *just* Mary, or was she just the first person that Dean saw? Did Amara just want to give him back what had been taken from him as a child, or did she want to give back what had been taken from him all along the road? Are other characters fair game here? Do we want that much death to be undone? I'm honestly torn. On the one hand, I like consequences and for death to stick. On the other hand, it could be fun to see Sam, Dean, John, Mary, Bobby, Ellen and Jo facing off against a bunch of Men of Letters. Mary was a hunter, after all.

So I liked it. Overall, I think it was a strong season. However, the main arc of the season had issues. And I still don't like that Crowley, Rowena and even Castiel are sticking around.

Re: Supernatural

Not sure if this was announced or not, but Supernatural will actually move from Wednesday (where it was paired with Arrow) to Thursday (where it will be paired with Legends of Tomorrow).

It's a bit of a weird move.  I think Supernatural and Arrow worked together somehow.

Re: Supernatural

I think it is because Supernatural does well wherever they put it, and anchors whatever night it is on. Pairing ot with Arrow worked well, but Arrow is at a point where it shouldn't need anyone holding it up anymore. The CW kinda had two anchor shows on the same night.

Of course, I tend to disagree with the "anchor show" theory. I think that you should build a strong night and keep it in place, making the night a part of the show experience. For example, Buffy was a Tuesday show. Deep Space Nine was a Wednesday show. The Pretender was a Saturday show (when that was a thing).

Re: Supernatural

Yeah, I see it both ways.  How long has Supernatural been on Wednesdays?  It was paired with Smallville back in the day, wasn't it?  I can't even remember anymore.

I think their superhero strategy is the most interesting, but we'll see how Supernatural does on Thursdays.  It's got to be nearing an end, right?  Do Jensen and Jared want to do this show forever?

Re: Supernatural

I think they may actually want to do it forever. Both seem to know what they have and appreciate it. The set seems to be a happy one. The network is willing to keep it forever. I think that they will do it until they really feel like it's going down... but we may see more characters added or less episodes per season at some point.

The show started on Tuesday, if I recall correctly. Then it moved to Thursday, with Smallville. Then Friday. Then maybe Tuesday again? Then Wednesday. Now back to Thursday. But it holds up well when moved.