Re: DC Movie Universe by Informant

Batman v Superman rewatch thoughts:

Still great. And probably the most truthful exploration of the news media/public relationship that I've seen depicted in film. I'm not even joking. Superman saves 100 people, but the story is about the 10 that he couldn't. They want him to be a villain, so they report that while there is no evidence, there are still questions about his involvement in the bombing. The facts don't matter as much as the story. And the people either hate him because of the monster in the press, or they worship him in spite of it, an neither side is remotely realistic in their view of the man.

Great themes in the story. Great character arcs. It's just a great movie (talking about the Ultimate Edition here). I wouldn't put it on the same level as MoS, because there are some things that I would change with BvS (particularly in the Batman/Superman fight), but it's a very well crafted story and a well made film.

And the Wonder Woman arrival was just cool.

Re: DC Movie Universe by Informant

Informant wrote:

And the Wonder Woman arrival was just cool.

What sort of ruins the whole arrival for me is the whole "Is she with you?" "I thought she was with you" back and forth....which literally only works for the trailer.  It's a cool line but makes absolutely no sense in the context of the movie.  Superman should be asking that, but Batman knows *exactly* who she is.  She isn't trying to hide her identity, and maybe he's trying to distinguish between Batman knowing Diana and Bruce knowing Diana.  But I don't think Bruce was supposed to be covering for her....I think it's a line designed for the trailer that they put in the movie and didn't edit out.

Re: DC Movie Universe by Informant

Maybe Bruce assumed that all superpowered people knew each other smile

Got my tickets for Wonder Woman. Going tomorrow! I hope this doesn't suck!

Re: DC Movie Universe by Informant

Haha, come now.  You can criticize that one's all I ask smile

It's a great line for the trailer.  It just needed to be cut for the movie.  Or altered.  Clark could say "Is she with you?" and Bruce could says something else witty.  "I don't think she's with anyone" or "I think she's with us" or something.  Or even just that Batman smirk to let the other guy know that he knows something the other guy doesn't know (even/especially when he doesn't).

Have fun at Wonder Woman!

Re: DC Movie Universe by Informant

Hey, there are a few things I'd change about the movie (bigger than the "Is she with you" line). I acknowledge that. I would change the Save Martha scene a little, because I like the concept but the execution was a little off. And I'd change Superman's attempt to talk to Batman as he arrives at the battle, because the "We need to talk" and "You don't understand" thing is a peeve of mine from movies in general.

The movie is very, very good, but it isn't perfect

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Saw Wonder Woman last night, as most have said, great film. Limited CGI, intrigue and mystery, and period piece elements. Gadot did an excellent job as well, she's really right for the part. How ironic that the Justice League trailer preceded this film, and looked like even more of a mess than BvS.

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Deep breath...

I saw Wonder Woman...

I didn't love it. <pounds head on desk repeatedly>

Spoilers below...

A couple of things to say before I go into my thoughts on the movie.
First, I've never been a huge fan of Wonder Woman. I've always found her to be a lot of iconic imagery without much character. Her story makes her unrelatable in the comics, and I've never understood why she is the big female icon, rather than one of the better female characters.
Second, I didn't love the movie, but I didn't hate it either. This isn't a negative review. I think Gal Gadot was great in the role.

I'm still trying to figure out where this movie is going to settle in my brain. I guess we'll find out in time.

What are some of the issues that I have with the movie?

Well, as I've said before, the interesting thing about Batman and Superman is that they've been done so many times before that the current franchise runners really can't fall back on the basic paint-by-numbers origin stories. They had to find a new style from which to film them, and a new hook by which to tell their stories. This means that the writers and director had to push that much harder to create a world for those characters.

Since Wonder Woman is such an unrelatable character by default, I really wanted something like Man of Steel, to make that character come alive for me and make me believe in the world that she lives in. While the opening scenes on Themyscira were beautiful and drew me into Diana's world, something shifted once they went back to the "modern" world. Suddenly, every character that surrounded Diana was comic relief, constantly bantering and joking in ways that made them feel like characters, rather than people. I couldn't imagine many of those characters existing off screen. They existed to serve Diana's character.
In Man of Steel, you get a sense of Martha's life without Clark around. You see Lois' life without him. Every character on screen has their own world and their own personality that makes the world full and complete. I just didn't feel that, even with Steve.

In many ways, Wonder Woman has a lot of the same problems that I find in Marvel movies. But I'd still say that this movie was better than the Marvel movies, because while I didn't like it *as much as* Man of Steel or Batman v Superman, I do think that there is more substance and more interesting ideas here. And visually, it just looks better.

Though I don't get why people are saying that it's so much more colorful than Man of Steel. Did I have my sunglasses on during the movie or something?

There was a moment that I thought the movie was taking a really interesting turn. As Diana tracks down General Ludendorff and kills him, she realizes that nothing changes. And Steve tells her that maybe it's not Ares, maybe it's just people. Bad people do bad things, and good (though still not perfect) people fight them, and that's the point of this. We keep fighting, because it's the right thing to do.

Right there, I thought that this was something unexpected and interesting, and a truly hero-creating moment. Diana can't rid the world of all evil and war by killing one bad guy, it has to be a life-long mission (especially since... spoiler alert... there's another World War).

Then the real Ares shows up, that moment from a few seconds ago passes, and we get a big battle that is exciting, but less meaningful than what almost happened.

It's almost like there was a whole other direction for the movie, and it was changed later in the process. In this alternate version, Steve's message to Diana sticks and she realizes that there is no simple way to kill one bad guy and be rid of evil. They off the general, and fight some soldiers as they work to blow up the poison gas, and the day is saved. Yay!
There was also this running question of what a normal life looks like in this world, in between wars. Neither Diana nor Steve know the answer. So in my alternate version, we leave with them together, off to discover what that normal life looks like and whether or not people are actually happy to be married.

There's no reason to not do this. Diana isn't frozen and thawed out decades later. She will live those decades, so why not with Steve? Why did he die in this movie, except because they want to set any sequels at a later point? Diana could have lived with him for at least a couple of years, and at most a few decades, and it wouldn't have done any harm to the character. In fact, I think it would have helped. Wonder Woman is always so unrelatable, but if she had that time with Steve and outlived him, we instantly have something that we can relate to!

This part frustrates me.

Instead, we get a big Ares battle, a dead Steve, and... I don't know. I'm still trying to figure out what I'm going to take away from it in the end. Maybe I need time to get past the "what I wanted to happen" part of my reaction.

Right now, my movie rankings are...

Man of Steel
Batman v Superman
Suicide Squad
Wonder Woman

But just to be clear, Wonder Woman still beats out the Marvel movies. I don't think it was bad. I don't think it was full of plot holes that render the whole movie useless. I don't think it was poorly acted or directed (though I strongly disagree with those who say that Jenkins did a better job than Snyder). It was a good movie. I just have to see where it settles once the dust clears.

Re: DC Movie Universe by Informant

Well, that's my question.  They have Chris Pine....could they bring him back?  She acts like she hasn't seen him in a while, but could he have survived?  Could the Flash have grabbed him out of time and brought him to the present day?  Could he have been, I don't know, recruited into the Green Lantern Corps?

Also....CAN SHE FLY OR NOT? Haha.

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And also....SMH.  We just can't agree on this crap wink

Re: DC Movie Universe by Informant

Most comic book fans agree with you, if that makes you feel better. I don't know what it is. Part of me thinks that a lot of people have just gotten used to seeing Superman done poorly, so they have a hard time accepting a version that actually has some thought behind it. Another part of me gets that while I like layers and grounding and all of that, most people just want to have fun and don't think about it as much as I do... which sounds like I'm calling them stupid, but I'm not. It's just that different people process stories in different ways.

I don't know about Steve. Bringing him into the present would be too convenient, and I'd hate that. So now they're stuck with him being dead. He could become the Spectre, but that doesn't really make sense. I just don't get why they killed off Diana's main co-star and love interest when the story didn't really require it. If he were Lois Lane, he'd still be alive.

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The more I think about it, the more the whole Ares sequence feels like the product of a rewrite. In the beginning of the movie, young Diana sees the god killer sword and is told that only the most capable warrior could wield it (or whatever the phrasing was), and that was not Diana.

Except, none of that is true. The sword is meaningless. The tower that holds the sword was just a waste of construction materials. And Diana is pretty much the only one who could wield the god killer, unless #patriarchy.

Every arc in the movie leads to the point where Diana kills the General and realizes that he was just a man, and then the movie goes totally sideways, with split themes that cancel each other out (is it man? is it Ares? It's both! So, neither!)

Did someone not think that the General was a big enough villain for Wonder Woman, after we had Zod and Doomsday?

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Does anyone own Superman II? Not the Donner cut, but the original?

If so, could you tell me how things are left with Zod and his team? In the versions I'm seeing on YouTube, they die. In a later televised version, released years later, they're seen getting arrested. In the Donner version, I think Superman reverses time, so they're back in the Phantom Zone.

But I don't know which one is the "normal" version on the modern releases.

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I think the official version is that they are dropped down the cavern.  We don't see that they die, but it's pretty assumed I think.

Them getting arrested is a deleted scene, I believe, added to TV versions.

Re: DC Movie Universe by Informant

That's what I thought. Thanks.

I'm in one of those conversations where people are insisting that the old movies are superior, because Superman would never kill. smile


Re: DC Movie Universe by Informant

For whatever the reason, 17-24 minutes (depending on broadcaster) was inserted back into the film for TV back in the 1980's.  These scenes, including the arrest I believe, were shot by Donner.  That's why in many ways, the "Donner cut" might be further from the theatrical version but not as far apart from the broadcast one.  I saw it awhile ago, and compared it to the original, and frankly I barely see that much of a difference.  Still a good movie no matter what.


Re: DC Movie Universe by Informant

The weird part is that even without the arrest, people are arguing that Zod and his minions weren't killed by Superman. They say that Superman just threw Zod down a slide and never implied that he died.

If true, that would be the lamest ending to a movie ever. Like "I just sent Zod down a slide, Lois. I guess that means that the fight's over. We won. Let's go home, because Zod... went down a slide."


Re: DC Movie Universe by Informant

I heard separate rumors today that DC is looking into making a RED SON adaptation (live action?) and that the next Justice League trailer will feature an "evil Superman" tease at the end.