Topic: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

So the next season everything will start over essentially now the reverse flash never existed to go back in time.

Same as the sliders episode that was in reverse

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

So, that ARROW finale... kind of boring. I didn't like the whole League of Assassins arc at all. I guess the main problem for me is, I don't understand the League's motives at all. They're a shadowy society of secrets that do malicious and evil things because... they're malicious and evil? I don't understand what they gain, what they want, what they're out for. They kill people because. They want power because. They use that power to get more power for something. I don't get it. With Slade and Merlyn, there was motive and reasoning even if it was extreme and crazy. With the League, they're just extreme and crazy.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

The League of Assassins storyline was weak.  Season 3 was a weak season as a whole.  I thought the Ray storyline was kind of dumb, the Oliver/Felicity stuff hurt both characters, I thought Laurel's story was rushed, and I thought Ra's wasn't as dangerous as he was meant to be.

But I think they sorta knew that with the series-finale-like ending.  Now they have no choice but to reboot.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

sliders5125 wrote:

So the next season everything will start over essentially now the reverse flash never existed to go back in time.

Same as the sliders episode that was in reverse

Quite different from the sliders episode really! But that said, I don't think they'll start over or reset Flash.

In our timeline we've seen since the show pilot, Barry becomes Flash 5 years earlier than he was "supposed to" because of Reverse Flash interfering and taking over as Wells. In ReversE Flash's original timeline he hadn't originally interfered and there was still Barry Allen as Flash except he became the Flash five years later, with Wells and Tess making the accelerator on the original timetable and his mom living and his dad never having gone to prison. Well we can surmise those events anyway.

So we have a younger Flash that we have followed since the beginning and an older flash that was around before Reverse Flash went back in time. The older flash had a different childhood and adulthood. He may have met the star labs people and he may not have. Or they may have a different friendship as well. He's a slightly different person.

Now that our younger Barry has taken out Reverse Flash, you COULD assume that our Barry's childhood should now revert to the way it was in reverse Flash's time, with no interference, a living mom, a free dad... and that would mean that our younger Barry would then not be the Flash 5 years earlier and everything we watched wouldn't have happened. I don't think they'd throw away the whole season like that.

The way they handled time travel is a bit confusing to figure out and from what I understand they'll be moving into multiple dimension storyline bow with several speedsters coming into the storyline.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I was not an Arrow family this past season. Too much drama with Felicity. Much less of saving his city. Not that you can't do storylines like that but it went on too long. I also hated what they did to Detective Lance and starting the manhunt on the heroes. After all the arrow did and helped, Lance just becomes irrational. Didn't enjoy at all.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

tom2point0 wrote:

The way they handled time travel is a bit confusing to figure out and from what I understand they'll be moving into multiple dimension storyline bow with several speedsters coming into the storyline.

There was actually a rumor that Flash was going to crossover with Smallville, which would be another CW/DC Universe dimension.

The whole CW/DC Universe is actually a secondary Earth of some other universe, caused when Reverse Flash went back in time.  I'm guessing it branches off from the DC Cinematic Universe.  Which would be a cool way to tie it in.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I find it really hard to read tom2point0's posts now without imagining his podcast voice reading every line.

I didn't mind Season 3? I enjoyed the individual episodes and I didn't find the flaws as grating as some. But it added up to a rather limp and awkward season-long arc overall. Nice ending, though.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Well, only a couple things really bothered me:

- I didn't like that I looked up one day and everyone was an expert ninja.  I was waiting for a scene where criminals attacked Ray, Laurel, Thea, and Felicity, and Felicity ran out of the room (or hid under a table) since all of the heroes were missing....only to find that everyone she thought was like her was actually an expert fighter.  It wouldn't surprise me if Oliver trained Felicity during the S3/S4 break, and now she can handle members of the League of Assassins without any issue.  Thea's was explained a bit better since she had 3/4 months of nonstop training.  Laurel went to a boxing gym after work and then worked with Nyssa....after work.  I was waiting for an episode where Laurel got her ass kicked and was eased into the fold.  But she basically became a member of the team (moreso than Diggle) almost immediately with relatively minor growing pains.

- Oliver's death.  Was one of the coolest moments of midseason for any show.  Then.....he was just okay?  The stab wound and/or the fall off the cliff should've killed him.  I kept waiting for Lazarus to be mentioned, but it was just something superhuman.  Then when Lazarus was actually used, it was this big issue....and then Thea was just fine.  Made me wonder what the point of any of it was.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

ireactions wrote:

I find it really hard to read tom2point0's posts now without imagining his podcast voice reading every line.

Love that! I'm in your head, man!

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Okay, my thoughts on the end of last season...

ARROW

Season 3 was a mess. First of all, Malcolm Merlyn should have stayed dead. Whatever good he contributed to the series since coming back could have been done with someone else. And his being there really weakened things a lot. Not only did it invalidate the first season finale and make Oliver and Diggle look stupid, but making him a series regular just meant that he was around way more often than he needed to be. His storyline in season 3 was nonsense (a word that I will probably use a lot in this post). How people interacted with him made no sense. And the very idea that Oliver would hand over the keys to the League--a mostly incompetent group, but still killers--to Malcolm instead of someone like Nyssa who never tried to blow up a city and kill millions of innocent people was just... there are no words for that. There is no excuse for it.
And he is still signed on for season 4. WHY?

Felicity was destroyed as a character in season 3, and nothing in the finale changed that. Not only did she cry during pretty much every scene of the series last season, but they kept forcing her into places where she didn't belong. They pushed the Olicity romance (I hate the name mashup, by the way) way too much. The two of them should have remained close, but never gone there. She should have been the safe zone, not the drama zone. Her side story with Ray was a waste of so much time... Ray's story could have been covered in a handful of episodes spread out over the season, like Firestorm's story was on The Flash, and it would have been much better. But locking two characters up on one set together, forcing a romance while Felicity was already in romance drama with Oliver... it was bad. Ray served no real purpose.
Toward the end of the season, Felicity's downfall became comedic. She was literally overpowering LoA members by wacking them over the head with the side of a spear, while in Nanda Parbat (where she had no business being at all). She throws a childish fit and confronts the f-ing Demon's Head... and he doesn't kill her right then and there. Instead, they have girl talk about boys. I half expected him to pull out some fuzzy slippers and ice cream.
And then we get to the finale, where Felicity wears the ATOM suit to save Oliver. This was so incredibly lame for so many reasons. How did the suit fit her? How did she magically know how to use it? Why does she need to save Oliver from cops who shouldn't have been randomly trying to kill people in the first place?

The Oliver/Felicity story took up so much time this season and it was so poorly handled. I hated everything about it, including the "happy ending". I was a Felicity fan. I even still like her on The Flash. But how they used her in season 3 ruined the show. I wanted the convertable to blow up at the end of the season, taking them both out.

If the writers don't recognize their failure and fix it, season 4 will be even worse. They keep talking about how the tone has changed and all of that... so far, it hasn't been for the better.

And Captain Lance. Again, another good character who was completely ruined. It didn't even make any sense. By the end, they were just having him and the other cops trying to kill people without any good reason... why?

Season 3 messed up so much, I don't know how they can fix it without ignoring it entirely. Oliver's "death" was just swept under the carpet. The whole thing where he joined the League was so obvious and stupid.

Ugh... okay, good things... good things... Tatsu was cool. I hope she comes back (but probably not since they decided to use her in the Suicide Squad movie. stupid people). Seeing Thea suit up was pretty cool too. She pulled it off well. I don't hate Laurel as Black Canary as much as some people. She is still learning.

That was about it.


THE FLASH

I'm trying not to blame this series for the drop in Arrow's quality, because I do like it a lot.

The Flash had a great end to their first season. The story arc with Wells/Reverse Flash came together really well. The Eddie storyline was wrapped up in an interesting way. Iris isn't going to be kept in the dark for so long that it will become annoying to see her on screen. So far, this series is doing things right. Which means that I probably won't ramble as much about it as I did with Arrow.

The end, where Eddie erased Eobard from history was pretty cool. Having him save the day instead of Barry was a cool choice. And then opening the rift at the end was a ice cliffhanger. There was really nothing that I would do differently with that. I just hope that they can sustain that quality, even as they introduce Legends and some of them are working on Supergirl.

With that said... I think it was the episode before the finale, where they teamed up with Captain Cold... That was a stupid episode. Should be forgotten. Especially since they want us to believe that they would bring him into another team with Legends!

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I'm not sure why I think of this now, but something just occurred to me about the Flash season finale. Why did Barry stop himself from saving his mom in the past?  Why did Eobard suddenly play nice and offer Barry a chance to save his mom?   Even though speculation, the below may be spoilers.

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What if Barry's mom died even without Eobard in the picture?  What if Barry's dad always ended up in jail?  Thawne could have been offering Barry a sadistic false hope; he would save his mom only to return to the present and see nothing changed.  Future Barry was waving off his past self because he knew saving her didn't matter.

The could be set up for season two.  With Eobard now erased from existence, how could he kill Barry's mom?  There could now be a search for the new killer - the original killer.  And Flash will get to keep its opening monologue about finding justice for Barry's father.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

That's interesting.

So they're definitely doing Jay Garrick and Wally West this season.  One rumor we had at the end of last year was that Barry was going to end up in the Smallville universe.  And my question is - why the heck not?  Would Tom come back for one episode as Clark where he meets up with Barry?  Could they get Kyle Gallner to play Bart/Impulse?  Or, heck, get Justin Hartley to play a different version of Oliver.  Something like that could be fun and tie one era of CW/DC television to another.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I thought both premieres were very strong.  I felt that Flash followed up with their first season pretty well (although the way they handled the singularity was a bit botched IMO).  I'm interested to see what Jay Garrick brings to the table, and I'm interested in both Zoom and whatever happens with Dr. Wells.

Arrow was very good, I thought.  Bringing in mysticism, making Oliver the Green Arrow finally, the new team dynamic, making Lance a bit of a villain - all cool moves.  I even felt like we had the old Felicity back.  Should be a much better season.

Although, mirroring my Jerome/Joker thoughts - the official Arrowverse continuity is that Roy Harper was the Arrow and now a new guy is a semi-copycat of him as the Green Arrow?  I like the way that evolved, but it's kinda weak that Star City's greatest hero is just holding someone else's mantle.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Slider_Quinn21 wrote:

I thought both premieres were very strong.  I felt that Flash followed up with their first season pretty well (although the way they handled the singularity was a bit botched IMO).  I'm interested to see what Jay Garrick brings to the table, and I'm interested in both Zoom and whatever happens with Dr. Wells.

Possible spoilers ahead

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They are placing a lot of other elements into if, but it looks like the core concept of this Zoom is that he is the Jay Garrick Flash villain known as The Rival:

http://comicsalliance.com/files/2013/11/Rival-Flash2.jpg

The Rival first appeared in Flash Comics #104 (February 1949). He is Dr. Edward Clariss, a professor at the university attended by the Golden Age Flash, Jay Garrick. He believes he has recreated the formula that gave Garrick his speed, which he calls "Velocity 9." He had heard Joan one night talking about how the Flash gave his speed to another student, which helped him get the last formula. Bitter at the scientific community's rejection of his claims, Clariss becomes a criminal. He wore a darker version of Flash's outfit and gave it to several other criminals. The Rival's version of the formula proves to be temporary, and he is defeated and jailed.

Velocity 9 has it's own further history with the Earth 1 reality, but the main reason I point out The Rival is because his origin has him as a contemporary scientist to Jay Garrick.  If Zoom tracks with this, then I would expect his identity to be a double of someone from the main cast.  Wells is the easy answer; Barry himself is a possibility; but I'm betting it will turn out to be a double of Eddie Thawne who lived up to the genius of his blood line on Earth 2.

On a side note, looks like Sliders once again had its influence on parallel reality TV; we got something very much like our vortex, and I swear that even sounded reminiscent to the noise our vortex made when it opened and closed.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Okay, thoughts...

Arrow:
So far, this season is okay. I don't like how they're writing Felicity the CEO. She comes across as immature and unqualified. I don't mind if she doesn't do this job well, but they're making her an idiot. Honestly, I think that they should have put her back in her old tech position and left the running of the company to someone else.

Damien is a cool villain. Much, much better than Ra's last year. I just hope that they don't drop the ball.

Green Arrow... It is fine that they are changing things up, but the show doesn't feel like the writers are taking it as seriously as they did in season 1. I know they have opened the door to a slew of superpowers and whatnot, but they should still try to make it feel grounded and real.

I find myself hoping that Felicity is in the grave. It just seems like it would open up a ton of stories and honest emotion. But they will probably go with Lance instead, since they've completely destroyed his character and he is the easiest one to kill.


The Flash:
So far, this season is going pretty well. I don't like the idea of replacing Ronnie and I hope that he comes back. But Jay is pretty cool and I like the way that they're using the alternate realities. It seems like they learned from what Fringe did, at least in the glimpse that we got.

Zoom is pretty scary. He could easily be a rehash of Reverse Flash, but they have avoided that so far.

So, how will they do Wally? Will he be the brother that Iris never knew she had? Will he be an Iris double from Earth 2? I still think it is way too early to be using him, but I guess I don't get a say in the matter.

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17 (edited by tom2point0 2015-10-23 05:24:29)

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

It looks like Wally will be like Informant said: the brother she never knew.

Spoiler if you haven't watched the latest episode yet...





















And Zoom is Tom Cavanaugh (Wells) I guess? I'm ok with that as I like the actor very much. Interesting to think that Jay Flash's arch nemesis would be the same as Barry Flash's arch nemesis kind of.

I am very glad that Iris didn't get ticked at Joe and that we weren't treated to a multi episode sub plot where the two avoid each other and give each other the stink eye.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I don't think that Zoom is Wells. I think that they're just using this opportunity to keep Tom on the cast. Making him the villain again would just create the same problem next year.

It is nice to see Iris and Joe have a healthy relationship, especially after witnessing the train wreck that is the Lance family on Arrow.



Arrow has been better so far this year... except Felicity. What the f*** are they thinking with her? They're writing fanfic around the character and putting it into episodes and it's complete nonsense. She can magically hack machines that aren't networked? And that's just scratching the surface. Nothing that they're doing with her makes sense! They're just trying to elevate the character to Oliver's level, but she doesn't need that. Felicity was fine the way she was.

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Informant wrote:

I don't think that Zoom is Wells. I think that they're just using this opportunity to keep Tom on the cast. Making him the villain again would just create the same problem next year.

I'll be interested to see what they do with it.  They have an opportunity to play with expectations because we already have an image of Wells in our head, but that was really just Thawne using the face of Wells.  An interesting twist would be seeing that Thawne was actually much nicer and less arrogant than the real Wells.

Wells may not turn out to be Zoom; but he may be a colossal a-hole that's a villain in his own Luthor type way.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Maybe this will happen later in the season, but I was sorta hoping they'd have more fun with the alternate worlds on the show like Fringe did.  Is the only difference between Earth 1 and Earth 2 who the Flash is?  Why haven't the writers taken advantage of differences in pop culture, history, etc?  I'd also like to see them move beyond Earth 2.  The rumor about the Smallville earth was probably far-fetched, but they could play around with the idea of going to a world with Superman (even if they just see a shadow flying above the city) or any of the other heroes they aren't allowed to feature. 

I know, on a Sliders board, I'm going to suggest more parallel universe stuff, but it seems like the writers aren't having as much fun with the concept as they could be.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Slider_Quinn21 wrote:

Maybe this will happen later in the season, but I was sorta hoping they'd have more fun with the alternate worlds on the show like Fringe did.  Is the only difference between Earth 1 and Earth 2 who the Flash is?  Why haven't the writers taken advantage of differences in pop culture, history, etc?  I'd also like to see them move beyond Earth 2.

Jay did mention something about The War of the Americas (which is likely a modern placeholder for World War II so that Jay can still have roots in his origins); but that's all we have so far.  I imagine Barry will be visiting Earth 2 at some point, so we're likely to get more then.

Beyond Earth 2, I still believe this is a perfect opportunity to visit a version the big guns they don 't seem to be allowed to use.  Earth 3 gives us the Crime Syndicate consisting of Ultraman, Owl Man, Super Woman, Power Ring and of course Johnny Quick.  They are not just doubles of Clark Kent, etc; they are their own unique characters in the comics with different origins from the heroes; it should be just enough to let them be used without stepping on any plans for Superman, etc.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

It should be interesting to see what they do with it once we actually see that world. I hope the writers have put as much thought into it as the Fringe writers did.

Some are theorizing that if the CW and CBS ever wanted to do a Flash/Arrow/Supergirl crossover, the multiverse would be the way to bring her (and kinda-sorta Superman) into this world. But that is probably something that won't even be considered for quite some time. Supergirl could flop... and CBS is doing it no favors by putting it up against Gotham and then starting it at 8:30. Honestly, who the f--- thought it would be a good idea to start an hour long drama at the half-hour point?! Their theory is that they need the sitcom to bring in viewers, which just tells me that they have no idea what they're doing with the character on CBS. This character doesn't need a known name to bring in viewers, it just needs to be good!

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

TemporalFlux wrote:

Beyond Earth 2, I still believe this is a perfect opportunity to visit a version the big guns they don 't seem to be allowed to use.  Earth 3 gives us the Crime Syndicate consisting of Ultraman, Owl Man, Super Woman, Power Ring and of course Johnny Quick.  They are not just doubles of Clark Kent, etc; they are their own unique characters in the comics with different origins from the heroes; it should be just enough to let them be used without stepping on any plans for Superman, etc.

Okay that'd be pretty sweet.  I imagine their Crime Syndicate would just be darker versions of the guys they already have, but that would be a great way to get around the system.  Especially if they never refer to their alter-ego's actual names.

Still think a Welling cameo would be cool and call back to the legacy of the DC heroes on the CW.  Even something like Justin Hartley appearing as Oliver Queen (or, heck, Aquaman) could be funny if done correctly.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I've been thinking that they could use the alt-Tommy as the new Dark Archer. Maybe he could try to force Oliver into abandoning the no-kill policy.

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I am posting this here, because I doubt that the show will ever deserve its own thread...

Supergirl.

Watched the pilot. It was really bad. The writing was bad. The directing was bad. The actors were miscast, but that could be because of bad writing.

The show wants to be all about girl power. The problem is that unlike Sara, Laurel, Thea, Nyssa or Lyla, the fact that she was just a little girl was highlighted over and over again. They kept making excuses and apologizing for the fact, to the point where I felt like they were begging me not to turn it off.
And it makes no sense, because Kara would have no reason to feel this way. She is the second strongest person on the planet, from a world where women were powerful, now on a world where she is surrounded by powerful women. Why would this be an issue for her?

The issue shouldn't be an issue. They don't have to explain her being strong and heroic, they just need to write her that way.

But that is another issue. They didn't bother to build her world, develop interesting characters or make me care. Arrow, The Flash and Gotham had great pilots, so there is no reason for Supergirl's to suck. I want to know why she feels compelled to be a hero, the way Clark's upbringing informed that decision.

The execution of the fight scenes was weak, with obvious wire work. The shadowy government organization was a boring cliche that just isn't needed.

Superman was turned into a douchebag who dumped his newly (from her POV) orphaned cousin into a strange family and literally never spoke to her again. Why? If they just said that she knows him and he trained her, the show would only be better for it and his absence would be less awkward.

I don't like the way Jimmy is being used. Aside from being the wrong personality, he is just awkwardly playing go-between, despite the fact that there is no reason for Clark to not be there himself. Especially considering the size of this alien threat.

Speaking of which... Did they really try to go with "aliens don't exist" while knowing that Superman exists? Why?
Why did Kara take off her glasses to use x-ray vision? I can see through my glasses and I don't even have superpowers!
Why was her sister standing in Kara's hallway, yelling every super secret detail of Kara's life, loud enough for the entire building to hear?

Everything that made Arrow and The Flash work out of the gate was missing here. It is like they didn't even care about writing the script.

I like Supergirl as a character, but this just didn't work at all.

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Okay, Arrow watchers. Cast your vote...

Is the sickeningly sweet Olicity crap this season merely a case of the writers sucking, or are they setting things up for the epic fridging of Felicity Smoak?

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Outside of the last ten minutes of this last episode, I don't think the Olicity stuff has been bad.  I thought Felicity has been a pretty fun character again, and I thought the chemistry has been pretty good.  I even struggled to remember whether or not Olicity was even together until all the lovey dovey stuff this week.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I have real issues with how they're handling Oliver this year. They've made him pretty useless on his own show. He doesn't win fights anymore. He doesn't stop criminals anymore. It feels like I'm watching a giant epilogue to a Green Arrow story. Now he's writing in his journal, making goo-goo talk with Felicity and frowning about burnt chicken.

And while that's happening, there are really solid stories going on, but they're all happening off screen! I would have rather seen the past six months of Ray's life than Donna Smoak last week. I would have loved to have seen Sara come back. How does she relate to Thea (the woman that the blood lust is supposed to be directed at)? Maybe a line about Diggle naming his daughter after her, so she needs to live up to that honor now.

But no. Dinner was ruined and that was apparently more important.


As for Felicity... she is pretty stupid this year. She shrugged off her malfunctioning cell phone, which is just unforgivable. She is stealing money from the company to fund Oliver's campaign, while it's been made clear that the company is struggling to keep its employees. And they continue to try to turn her into a leading lady, which is a role that she is just not cut out for.

Between the two of them, I'm thinking/hoping that Felicity is the one in the grave. It's the only thing that makes logical sense, from a writing POV... so I expect it to be Lance, whose death wouldn't really have that big an impact at this point. Or possibly someone we don't really care about at all, so the writers could play up the mystery without having to follow through.

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Yeah I imagine it's Lance too because too many people like Felicity.  My only thought was the fact that it was Barry in the flashforward scene.  I guess he could just be a forced crossover (and a way to tease Zoom on Arrow) and Barry just being a good friend, but when I saw him, I assumed it was Felicity.  Or at least someone Barry has met - so someone on Team Arrow.

I can see what you're saying about a weakened Oliver, but that same flashforward scene makes it seem like Oliver knew that he know he's softer.  And even says that he's going to kill "him" - which he hasn't done since season one.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

My concern is that this is just another situation like last year's winter finale where they stabbed Oliver through the chest and threw him off a cliff, and then they resolve it by simply ignoring the magnitude of that event and having him walk it off. The flash forward tease is a promise that this is a major event. Someone important is going to die (according to said promise). Barry showing up implies that it is someone that isn't just a part of Team Arrow, but a part of the JLA that they're building on the show.

I feel like Lance will go, just because they made a complete mess of the character and he is the easiest to kill off. But I don't feel like that is actually the logical way to go in terms of the flash forward's promise, or just in terms of opening up stories for the remaining characters. If Lance is the one that died, it becomes weird that the big mournful scene was about Oliver and Barry, and not Laurel and Sara.

Then again, it would hardly be the first time that they side-stepped a legitimate and strong character moment for Laurel.

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Informant wrote:

I am posting this here, because I doubt that the show will ever deserve its own thread...

Supergirl.

Watched the pilot. It was really bad. The writing was bad. The directing was bad. The actors were miscast, but that could be because of bad writing.

They didn't bother to build her world, develop interesting characters or make me care.

Superman was turned into a douchebag

I don't like the way Jimmy is being used. Aside from being the wrong personality,

Everything that made Arrow and The Flash work out of the gate was missing here. It is like they didn't even care about writing the script.

I like Supergirl as a character, but this just didn't work at all.

Agree with all of this!

James Olsen is so the wrong personality. I could care less what ethnicity he is as long as he acts like Jimmy, the dorky lovable, just wants to do a good job and impress his boss, all around nice guy. Instead we get broad shouldered, deep voiced, confident, GQ Jimmy.

And all the references to Superman are distracting and annoying because like you said, why WOULDN'T he show up to help. He can be there in seconds! Their chat on AOL Instant messenger was ridiculous too. Just show him. Or don't reference him at all.

Cat really rose to the top of this profession acting the way she does? Ick, nope. I really do not like the characters at all, Cat, James, Kara, her sister, their mother... I kind of don't mind Winn, but essentially, doesn't he come across as Jimmy-like? And I am a big fan of Dean Cain but haven't had enough wth him yet to say whether I like his character or not.

The biggest problem I see is that all these years, Kara just didn't use her powers because she was taught to hide them away (Oh hello, Elsa from Frozen). But then she sees a plane start to crash and decides NOW is the time? There has never been other great disasters before that she felt compelled to help? Why suddenly does she decide, now I'm gonna hero up?

And oh yeah, if she never used her powers really, why did she have to wear glasses? There is no reason if she isn't fighting crime as Supergirl.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

It is weird. They have Jimmy Olsen on the show, but they don't call him Jimmy Olsen. Then they have a completely new character who they do call Jimmy Olsen. It's like someone had the "brilliant" idea to swap character names as some sort of twist on the plot.


The whole show is so oddly dated, it's like watching a show from the 80's or early 90's, but with actors from today. It's shallow and juvenile, and the production value sucks. The wig that they put on Live Wire was a joke, and the preview showing Red Tornado looked really bad too.

If they wanted a superhero that girls could look up to, why didn't they at least make her as cool as the women on Arrow or The Flash? She doesn't have to be Sara Lance, but some depth and personality would be nice. It's like they're playing all of the Donner Superman notes, which is outdated and cartoonish.

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Okay so I finally watched last week's "Heroes Join Forces" - I liked the threat they faced.  Vandal Savage was good, and it used both casts very well.  It's always cool to see Oliver hold his own alongside Barry, and I think the worlds mesh way better than I thought they were going to at first.

But something was off.  I wasn't a huge fan of using time travel again - especially since Barry still hasn't cleaned up the mess from the last time he did it.  I still think it's weird that Oliver discovers he has a child on the Flash (just like we discovered it last year on the Flash) - I know it was mostly done on Arrow, but actual reveal was done on Arrow.  The show seems to assume that people watch both shows (and I know at least two people who only watch one). 

And I felt like Barry was underused.  It's like when Batman and Superman are fighting - they tend to depower Superman so that it isn't ridiculous for Batman to be fighting the same villain(s).  Barry just kinda stood around for a lot of the same fight.  I still think he could've fought Vandal by himself.  He was an exceptional fighter but still just human.

I also feel like the show is doing a lot to set up Legends of Tomorrow instead of focusing on their own stuff.  I like the crossovers that are a little more organic (like when each Oliver/Barry called the other when they needed help with a specific overwhelming task).  Leaving Kendra with Team Arrow seemed a little forced, especially since Barry knows that Oliver has his own problems (although this was also written into the show).

All in all, I'm really enjoying both shows.  I think Arrow Season 4 has been a big improvement.  I just thought the crossover series was a bit underwhelming.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

SUPERGIRL's Winn is *not* a completely new character. At all.

*cue ominous music*

I love SUPERGIRL. But I also hate it. Oh, how I love and hate and despair of this beautiful, terrible, delightful, tragic series. I'll have to explain later.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

The crossover was good, but it just wasn't a particularly good episode for either series. It's an aside that doesn't really flow with what's going on on either show at the moment. That is odd, especially when you think about how they will release the show on DVD or on Netflix. It won't make much sense.

Overall, I liked the crossover but the big thing for me was Felicity. After the way she reacted to Oliver finding out that he had a kid (before it was erased) made me want her to leave the show. I want her to be the one in the grave now. Or maybe she just walks out. I don't care if they never even explain it, I'm just done with her. She went from being a great character, to being an annoying character, to being a complete b*tch. She is so arrogant and self centered.

This year has been better than last year for Arrow, but I think that Oliver and Felicity have been handled horribly still. Mostly because they're really pushing the relationship that doesn't feel right or natural. On top of that, they're dumbing Oliver down and making him less of a fighter, just so the group scenes play better. They should cut back on the big group outings and focus on one or two people going out at a time. The fights used to be really great on the show, but they're so watered down now. (plus, they always want to include Felicity, which leads to complete stupidity like the gun magnets or hacking construction equipment)

Eventually, Laurel needs to go off and be her own hero. She isn't supposed to be a sidekick for the rest of her life. She is the friggin Black Canary.

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

SPOILERS

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Well, you might've gotten your wish, Informant.  Not sure if it's a tease of a tease (and if all the "you know I'd do anything for my little girl" talk means Lance is the guy who dies), but it certainly looks like Felicity is in trouble.

Solid winter finales for both.  Definitely fear both Zoom and Dahrk.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I was completely unimpressed with the midseason finale. It was more of the shtick they played last year where they killed Oliver and threw him off of a cliff just for thrills, and then completely ignored the magnitude of that event in the following episodes. If anything, we can now say that Felicity is the most safe character on the show.

The gas chamber killed one guy in a few seconds, but all of the main characters were apparently immune to the gas. They got a scratchy throat and coughed, but they were in there for a while and nothing major happened.

Felicity found the ring and then pretty much forced Oliver to propose. I just find myself hating her more and more. It's a death spiral now. I don't think that I could ever go back to liking her, even if they reverted to the good old days of the Felicity character. She is just so selfish and arrogant and whiny.


The Flash had a pretty good winter finale, but I'm still not sure about bringing Wally in at this point. The bomb magnet idea was silly, but then I remembered Felicity's gun magnets and the bomb magnets suddenly seemed far less stupid. smile

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I watched the pilot for Legends of Tomorrow.  It's okay, although I think they're pressing their luck with this one.  Could be really fun, but it could be an absolute mess.  I really think it should've just been a miniseries or maybe a series of miniseries to fill in the winter gap (sorta like Agent Carter but maybe a smaller scale).

One thing that's bothered me about Hawkman/Hawkgirl: what is the current mythos for them in the comics?  Because in the DCAU, they come from a different planet (Thanagar).  But the origin in the Arrowverse is totally different.  What's the more-correct answer?

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Slider_Quinn21 wrote:

One thing that's bothered me about Hawkman/Hawkgirl: what is the current mythos for them in the comics?  Because in the DCAU, they come from a different planet (Thanagar).  But the origin in the Arrowverse is totally different.  What's the more-correct answer?

What they are doing in the Arrowverse is the original origin of the hawks put forth in the 1940's comics.  The main difference is that Hath-set was a separate character and not Vandal Savage.   The alien origins of Hawkman didn't appear until the Silver Age reboot in the 1960's; and that was a different character (in the same way Jay Garrick is not Barry Allen).  In the late 90's comics, Geoff Johns combined the two hawk origins into one with the Hawks being aliens who crashed in ancient Egypt and were worshipped as gods because of their wings.  The DCAU followed the Johns story (those DCAU Hawkman episodes in fact written by Johns also), but they added in all that stuff about John Stewart and Shadow Thief which had never been seen before.

As for Legends of Tomorrow, I liked it.  It had a fun feel like Flash and lots of comics references; and I liked the twist on why the characters were chosen for the mission.  I wouldn't worry too much about longevity, though.  Rumor is that this essentially will be a mini-series.   The rumor puts forth that Legends will follow the American Horror Story model and be a completely different show each year.   The thought makes sense; the title chosen for this series was taken from a DC anthology title called Legends of the DC Universe.

Rumor further has it that next season would be Legends of Magic with John Constantine in the lead.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

ireactions wrote:

SUPERGIRL's Winn is *not* a completely new character. At all.

*cue ominous music*

I've seen some interesting speculation that could help the writers get out of a seemingly hopeless love triangle.  Toyman kept mentioning how Winn was his greatest creation, and it did strike me as odd how he kept emphasing it.  To say it once was kind of ironic; to say it a few times started to be weird.

What if Winn is an android?   A toy.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

TemporalFlux wrote:

I wouldn't worry too much about longevity, though.  Rumor is that this essentially will be a mini-series.   The rumor puts forth that Legends will follow the American Horror Story model and be a completely different show each year.   The thought makes sense; the title chosen for this series was taken from a DC anthology title called Legends of the DC Universe

Okay, that's *exactly* what this needs to be.  They could focus on some characters that really need focusing on.  Although if that's the case, it's a little strange that they're doing it with such a big cast.  It might've been a little more fun to do a Captain Cold/Heat Wave crime miniseries on their own.  Sort of a focus on villains in the Arrowverse, which could be interesting.  Like why metahuman villains seem to stay away from Star City.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I like the idea of changing up characters, but I don't think that they should do it just for the sake of doing it. They should keep characters around who could still be of use. Maybe have one or two who are the central characters, and they can build the team they need. Maybe Rip and Sara?

I like the Justice League Unlimited model. There were the core League members of the show, but other characters would come and go as needed. I would love to see Terry McGinnis appear at some point.


I enjoyed the first episode of Legends. I think the group dynamic worked really well. Ray was less annoying and more of his own character, since they weren't forcing him into a role that we all know he will never continue to fill (as he was last season on Arrow, as Felicity's love interest). Sara was great. I think the setup worked. I'm looking forward to seeing where it goes from here. I have to say, it was already more entertaining than the Avengers movies.


Arrow... if they actually follow through with the story that they have with Felicity here, it could be really interesting. But if this is just another example of them going big and then shrugging it off later, I will be pissed. Just like I was pissed when they threw Oliver off of a cliff, with absolutely zero follow-through.

I am on my last nerve with the Arrow writers. The show has so much potential to be great, but I get the sense that they're bored with it. They set up the grave thing, and they've already admitted that they don't have a clue who is in the grave. So they have a mystery that is completely useless because there are no clues for fans to pick up on. Nobody's arc is being written with that endgame. They have no idea what they're doing. Who writes that way?! If these were stand alone stories, it would be one thing. But to have an arc-based series where you flash forward to something that is supposed to be huge, and not have any idea what you plan to do with that? It's just cheap drama crap. It's lazy. It's like saying that they have no idea who is behind the Zoom mask on The Flash. When you set up a mystery, you need to know where it is going. You need to spread out clues. You need to build the story to that point.

They're going to pull another fake out. They will kill off someone that we don't care about, like Donna Smoak or maybe Quentin (since they ruined him anyway). But whoever it is, it won't make sense that Oliver is that upset or that Barry needs to show up. It won't be earth shattering.

You know I was a huge fan of this show. I want to love it and get excited about it. But how can I get excited when I know that the writers don't even care?

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I don't think it's that bad, but I see your complaints.  And it worries me that the writers don't know who's in the grave or who Zoom is it.  I have NO idea how you can write like that.  My friend and I wrote a TV pilot with TONS of seeds planted, and we had answers for all of them.  Even stuff that wouldn't even be answered for a while.

When they say they have no idea, you have to think it's just a disagreement in the writer's room, right?  Like they were sitting around in the room and they each have who they think would be best to move the story along, but they couldn't agree (it should be Felicity so we can bring in Barbara Gordon to fill her place!  No, it should be Diggle so the danger is real!  Thea!  Take the last family member Oliver has left!)

It reminds me of when the Simpsons said they were going to kill off a major character, and it was Krusty's dad.  I mean he was a somewhat-emotional character, but it's a side character to a side character.  Hardly newsworthy.

Informant wrote:

They will kill off someone that we don't care about, like Donna Smoak or maybe Quentin (since they ruined him anyway). But whoever it is, it won't make sense that Oliver is that upset or that Barry needs to show up. It won't be earth shattering.

Well I've been thinking about it.  If it's Donna, I think Barry would show up for emotional support.  Remember that going to Star City would be like walking down the block.  He could get in a suit in a second and be there in a few minutes.  And Felicity is his friend, so he'd be there to support her.

And maybe it's Donna and Quentin.  They're together, and it'd be emotional for Laurel and Felicity.  But it'd be minor in the grand scheme of things.  If it's not Felicity, then I guess the next best emotional gambit would be Diggle.  It'd be personal but also raise the stakes since Diggle is such an imposing figure.  But I doubt they'd do that.

I felt like maybe some of the better writers went to Flash, but if they don't know who Zoom is then they aren't much better.  I just think they might've spread themselves a bit too thin with two (now three) shows.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I'll say this much: TV isn't really a medium where forward planning is always an asset. Not to provoke Informant's rage, but J. Michael Straczynski exhaustively planned out BABYLON 5 and by the end of the show, the plan had been messed around with quite a bit. Actors in the Pilot with lengthy arcs declined to return to the show, necessitating new creations to fill those roles. Actors in those roles would then depart -- the lead actor of the series, the telepath whose powers were critical. A Season 4 cancellation necessitated that the entire arc for Season 5 be folded into Season 4 -- and then the show got renewed, resulting in a Season 5 that had no reason to exist.

TV is better served when forward planning is more in the sense of having courses to take for different opportunities. Neil Gaiman called it building doors -- the knowledge that he'd left a door that could be opened, although he might move down the hallway some more and find another door instead. So, in terms of the grave, TV history would indicate that the best route is to have multiple possibilities for who dies and multiple plans for how to capitalize on whichever route they end up going.

Whether or not ARROW's writing staff is actually doing this is another question entirely.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I'm all for leaving open the possibility of changing directions later. However, if you start the season with a flash forward to a grave like that, you'd better know what your plan is. I don't think the Arrow writers had the slightest idea of who it was when they started, and that annoys me. I believe that they know who Zoom is (because I think I know who is playing him, just looking at the eyes). I just don't get how you can start an arc-based series without knowing the plan. It drives me insane.

With some shows, there are a lot of stand-alone episodes. So the big plan doesn't need to be super detailed for those shows. But Arrow has cut out most of the stand-alone episodes with one-off villains. They got more into serializing the story, yet they don't have a map.

Like I said, I'm all for letting inspiration strike. But that isn't the same thing as not having a plan.

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

So is Jay Zoom or is "Hunter Zolomon" Zoom?

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I think that is going to be a misdirect. He may become a version of Zoom later, but I think Barry's father is Zoom. Just my own guess, not based on spoilers.

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I think I read something about him being in the suit (is that your eyes comment)?  But I wasn't sure if that was supposed to be who he's supposed to be.

I think something's up with Jay.  But it'd be pretty similar to Wells/Thawne in season one - speedster who "can't run fast" who helps the team but is the guy they're chasing.  So I hope that's not it.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Well I guess the Arrowverse got a directive to keep things from getting confusing with the new Suicide Squad movie, huh?

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Tonight's episode of Arrow is exactly why there's issues with merging Oliver's world with Barry's.  It's fun to put them together, but Barry is a Deus Ex Machina that Team Arrow is irresponsible for not using more.  I get that Barry has his own life and his own problems, but tonight's situation at the end was the perfect time to call Barry.  Or at least bring up how that's not an option - especially since they made the "just because you're wearing red doesn't mean you're the Flash" joke with Arsenal.  There was plenty of time to radio STAR Labs (which there'd certainly be a communication line open at all times with) and see if Barry could speed down there.  It's been established that Barry could've been there in plenty of time to either detonate the C4 and get out or carry Roy out.  There was simply no reason to risk Roy's life there.

Logistically, I get why they didn't.  And maybe it's better left just left alone and not open up that can of worms.  But, realistically, they need to be calling him if it's life or death and a problem that Barry is specifically set up to defeat.

"Cisco, it's Overwatch!"
"What?  Who?  Felicity?"
"Overwatch!"
"Okay.  I didn't sign off on that one!"
"We need Barry.  Now!"
"Barry's dealing with this week's villain of the week.  No can do."
"It's a matter of life or death."
"So is ours.  Sorry.  We owe you one.  Good luck."

Something like that.  Or even truncated without including Cisco.  "I checked with Cisco.  He says Barry is busy with his own life or death matter.  And he hates my call sign.  Sorry, you guys are on your own."

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

ringringring ringringring ringring click

"Cisco, it's Overwatch! We need -- "

"Hi! You've reached STAR Labs! We're currently engaged in an extradimensional journey to a parallel world of unknown threat and danger from which we may never return! Please leave a message and we'll get back to you should any of us return from Earth 2 alive."

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

On Legends of Tomorrow (which, quick review, is good but has too many characters), Sara is dealing with the bloodlust.  But in the last episodes, they said that John Constantine cured Sara of the bloodlust, and that's why it's a harder situation for Thea. 

Seems like a weird contradiction in the same week of episodes.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

They said that John Constantine cured Sara from dying if she doesn't indulge the bloodlust, while Thea will die if she doesn't kill.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Malcolm said that Constantine restored the balance within Sara, implying that she wasn't dealing with the bloodlust the same way that Thea was.

I said it in the X-Files section, so I'll say it here. I think that the Arrow writers are bored with writing Arrow. I think that The Flash and Legends are probably more fun to write with all of the fantastical elements, so those are the fun toys to play with, and Arrow is just the job that they have to do. It just doesn't seem like they care anymore. Felicity's injury was handled horribly. It's like they flashed forward a year or something, skipping over the harsh rehab part of that sort of thing. They keep bringing back dead characters, because why not? They keep having things just randomly happening to connect... The Calculator just happens to force Roy to work with him, and then just happens to bring it all back to Felicity who just happens to be his daughter.

It's like they're writing all of the major plot elements on the board and then filling in all of the between spaces with "blah blah blah"

They had Oliver chase down a criminal without his costume! And even though it turned out to be Roy that he was chasing (just happened to be Roy, I should say), the magical contact lens camera should have still picked up Oliver's face. Which means that the Calculator should know that Oliver Queen is a crime fighter who happens to be tied to the super genius who he was in a hacker battle with, which just happened to be his own daughter. Baby Sara could have connected those dots!

There must be a hundred writer/producers who would love the chance to write Green Arrow stories for TV. They would think them through. They would put their best effort into them. So if the current staff is bored with the show, I wish they'd just hand it over to someone who would be happy to be there. Either that, or announce that next season is the last season (when the flashbacks run out) and just finish it.


As for Legends, I don't think the cast is too big at all. I think that the group dynamic has been working really well so far. There are so many combinations to play here. What happen if Mick and Kendra have a mission together? What happens when Sara and Ray are out there together? The list goes on! I mean, there are weak spots in the writing (why leave Carter's body behind? Why not take the knife during the ritual this week? If they had Savage incapacitated, why not bring him a billion years into the future and leave him drifting through space?) but the show is really fun to watch. You can tell that the people making it are happy to be there.

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Interesting.  I guess I wasn't paying enough attention to the Malcolm line.

Regarding the writers, I think this is the problem with spinoffs.  You have a strong group of writers for one show, and you split them up to do two shows.  Both shows suffer because neither show has the strong writer's room the original show had.  Add a third group, and it gets even more diluted.  I don't think Arrow is as bad as you think it is, but it's definitely worse since they spun off Barry's show.

My problem with Legends is that the show isn't streamlined.  I get that these are a bunch of people with wildly different goals, but it's really odd to have three stories in one episode that aren't really connected.  Snart is out trying to fix his own past, Ray and Stein are connecting about their shared past while saving Kendra, and Rip is trying to take down Savage.  They're good stories....but they aren't a team.  There are too many characters in the reality of the show (Rip goes to kill Savage by himself at least once...what's the point of even bringing a team when half the team is off doing their own thing) and on the show (they have to find something for Jackson to do, for example, so he tags along on the Cold/Heat Wave story).

If it was me, I'd leave Heat Wave and Firestorm out.  Let Ray be the brains.  Let Sara be the muscle.  Cold is the wild card.  The hawks are the secret weapons.  The other characters are unnecessary if you ask me.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I enjoyed Season 3 of ARROW -- until Oliver died, and then it became very laboured, confused and tired. Oliver's resurrection was absurd and nonsensical and his return from death caused all kinds of problems. We're expected to take Thea's death seriously when Oliver's was irrelevant; we have Oliver vowing never to leave his city again only to leave it a few weeks later; we have a League of Assassins that wants to engage in a complex effort to unleash a biological weapon on an entire city in order to eliminate a single target (couldn't R'as have just bought a gun?) and Felicity's pedestal turned her into an object rather than a person.

I've enjoyed Season 4 much more and am less troubled by the faults, although they're present. I'm having a good time with Felicity. I got the impression the Calculator knows exactly who Overwatch is and who Oliver Queen is; why else did he just happen, as Informant puts it, to get himself involved in Team Arrow? So, that didn't bother me too much, nor does the uncertainty over who rests in The Grave (for reasons I posted above). That said -- Informant is right, especially about Felicity having skipped rehab. The reason that stuff doesn't trouble me: I don't really think of ARROW as a realistic drama. It's an impressionistic, exaggerated, larger than life escapist fantasy.

Seasons 1 - 2 of ARROW were just as absurd, from Oliver apparently building his base under the nightclub with one day of sledgehammering, Diggle pretending to be a smoker when he isn't one and wouldn't smell like one, Thea's addiction issues vanishing after a stern talk, the Black Canary being unmasked to reveal a complete and total stranger whom Oliver inexplicably recognizes as a Sara Lance who looks nothing like the Sara Lance of Season 1, Sara Lance charging into battle with that ludicrous push-up bra, the Huntress becoming Evil because she discovers Oliver has an ex-girlfriend he talks to now and then -- ultimately, I've learned to accept stuff like that and Felicity wheeling around in that chair like she was born in it because ARROW isn't a realistic show. It's a fantasy.

It's no sillier than Barry Allen apparently being the only police scientist in Central City with a lab that Barry and only Barry ever uses. Or Barry being dispatched to crime scenes despite his lengthy coma making it unlikely he would be permitted to work cases without an extensive psych evaluation to make sure his work would hold up in court. Or Star Labs being in operation with funds, vehicles and equipment after FEMA declared it a disaster zone. Or THE FLASH's inability to explain how the prisoners in the Pipeline prison go to the bathroom (Ray Palmer even asks how the prisoners "complete the transaction" only for Cisco to get distracted from answering the question).

As for the large LEGENDS cast -- I suspect it's simply being practical in that they need to have some characters they can kill.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Now that Flash is going to guest star on Supergirl, I started watching it.  Pretty good.  Although I hope Barry has to travel to a parallel Earth to get to her.  I don't think "Earth 1" meshes with the world on Supergirl.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I can understand that Arrow isn't supposed to exist in a realistic world. But the thing is, even when you create a world of your own, you have to create the reality of that world. There have to be rules and limitations. If Felicity's injury doesn't make her skip a beat, she might as well be rolling around in her desk chair without an injury at all. If Oliver can walk away from a sword through the chest and a drop off of a cliff, why doesn't he just close his eyes and teleport himself around town?
Arrow has violated its own reality so many times, and usually just because the writers want to take a shortcut through the story. None of it means anything anymore. Some things had to happen, like introducing meta-humans when they weren't supposed to exist on this show. I can understand that. But so much of it was completely unnecessary, and cheap.


As for Supergirl... never mind. I don't need to go there again. smile

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Oliver's "death" is still the most bizarre storyline I've ever seen on TV.  They killed off their main character and then sorta hoped everyone forgot about it.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I love SUPERGIRL. It's as flawed as THE FLASH, but it's earnest, heartfelt and it's clearly got a higher budget than THE FLASH and ARROW combined.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Really? It doesn't look as good as The Flash to me. And if I were in charge of the show, I would pretty much tear it down and start from scratch. It is a horrible Superman ripoff and they completely failed to make Kara her own character with a unique perspective and purpose. I want the show to be good, but everything is wrong with the show! Everything!


smile

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

It happened again! 

(SPOILERS for tonight's FLASH)

So Barry is gone, Earth-1 is undefended, and a metahuman shows up.  Immediately, the first thought was to use a formula to give Jay powers to fight him.  Which is fine.  But no thought was given to call Oliver and company.  Which is bizarre for a couple of reasons - first, you'd think Barry would've had someone in place to defend the city in his absence.  He's really worried about protecting Earth-2 Joe and Iris, but he leaves Earth-1 Joe and Iris undefended.  His first call should've been to Oliver.  Second, again, they're risking a life when it's unnecessary.  Geomancer was powerful, but he wasn't powerful enough that Oliver and company couldn't have taken him down (Joe basically does all by himself). 

Now I get why they didn't have Oliver and Team Arrow show up (although this could've been a great time to use Colton Haynes again to step in as Red Arrow to fill in for Barry).  They can't have a crossover every week.  But these are teams that have been shown to work together.  And, in both cases (the one from Arrow and this one), they don't even try.  It's the perfect chance to drop a crossover hint, do some cross-promotion, and explain why they aren't always popping up in each other's stories.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I think that they do mention each other often enough to make it clear that they're in each other's circle, and if they don't specifically mention them in each episode, it can be assumed that they've spoken. We haven't gotten Team Flash's reaction to Felicity being injured, for example. But I'm sure they've been in touch. And they're always introducing costume updates from Cisco on Arrow... at some point, it becomes repetitive and kinda wastes time to say "I tried to call Oliver, but he was dealing with problems of his own"

As for Roy... I don't know. On one level, I'd like to see him bouncing between shows as needed. On the other hand, he really can't. He's supposed to be dead, so if he shows up again, he is putting himself and Oliver in danger. They could change his costume, but it's still a risk.

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Well, I don't want every episode to have a mention.  And you're right, they have plenty of throwaway lines to show that they're a united universe.  Heck, last night's episode had nods to every part of the DC TV multiverse, including the original Flash TV show and Supergirl (would've loved a Smallville reference, though). 

But instead of a throwaway line about Cisco or a joke about Barry, these were two situations where life was literally at stake because they didn't make the reference.  If Roy had died, Barry would've been *furious* that they didn't call him on something that would've been no problem for him.  If Velocity-7 had killed Jay and people had died, Oliver would've been *furious* that no one called him to help.  The more crossovers they do, the more they're forming a Justice League.  They've all met each other now, and there's no excuse to risk lives when they just need to make a phone call.

And the reason why I think it's a problem in these two situations instead of any other is the fact that they *couldn't* have mentioned it off-screen.  In the Arrow situation, we saw the whole conversation.  There was no time for Felicity to check, and there was no conversation on the team about calling Barry.  In the Flash one, we saw the whole conversation with Caitlin/Joe/Jay, and they didn't consider calling Oliver (caveat - those three characters have had the least interaction with Oliver and they might've legitimately not thought he'd say yes).  Now the part that could've happened off-screen is Barry checking to see if Oliver can watch the city, but two things contradict that.  If Oliver said no (and he would've had to have), Barry still leaves the city unprotected, and even if he did say no, Oliver would've checked in considering Geomancer said he'd been causing earthquakes for days.

Now, of course, they're real-life logistics, and I think these were two situations where they could've made in-world explanations.  Barry can't get to the warehouse to save the day in 4 minutes because villain of the week.  Oliver can't come or spare anyone from his team because they're working on Dahrk.  It's not an argument that they should have more mentions in-universe - just that they should save them for situations like these - where they're being irresponsible by not making the call.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Also to be fair, the two cities are 600 miles away from each other. It probably makes less sense for Team Flash to call Oliver than it would make for Team Arrow to call Barry. smile


You know what has always bugged me about The Flash and Superman?  They rarely point out that when Barry is running 600 miles, he still has to run those 600 miles the same way that any of us would. The world slows down around him, but he still has to take each step and run each mile. That is why I would much rather be able to fly than run at super speeds.
I remember one comic where (I think it was) Wally West was thrown off of a bridge, and to him the fall took forever. He was helpless in the situation, but time was still slow around him and all he could do was fall for what would have been like hours to him.

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Informant wrote:

I remember one comic where (I think it was) Wally West was thrown off of a bridge, and to him the fall took forever. He was helpless in the situation, but time was still slow around him and all he could do was fall for what would have been like hours to him.

Reminds me of one of my favorite Flash stories from the Wally West years:

http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.co … ts-a-rule/

I liked most of the Messner-Loebs stuff; he had a good balance of wonder with a sense of humanity.  He also wrote my hands down favorite Flash story which presented the entire life of Barry Allen and how the events of his death led to him becoming the lightning bolt that gave him his powers in the first place.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Informant wrote:

Also to be fair, the two cities are 600 miles away from each other. It probably makes less sense for Team Flash to call Oliver than it would make for Team Arrow to call Barry. smile.

True, but they did some prep before going to Earth-2.  There would've been time for Oliver or Roy or Diggle or whoever to get on the jet/train and get to Central City in a few hours.  It's just so weird that, in both episodes, they chose the more-dangerous route without even considering the alternatives.

I think, in theory, I love the idea that superheroes let each other do their thing.  That Superman could solve all of Batman's crime in ten minutes, but he lets Batman do it.  And Barry is sorta doing the same thing with Oliver.  But I like that Oliver lets Barry struggle at things, and Barry lets Oliver struggle at things because it makes them better heroes in the end.  And for the most part, that's how I go about non-crossover episodes.  But both those examples really stood out to me.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Re: Supergirl.

I actually really like this show.  I'm surprised at how much heart is in it.  It definitely feels like the Flash to me, and that's a great thing.  And the introduction of some other DC characters really helps the show click.  Maxwell Lord is a good analogue for Lex Luthor, and "Henshaw" is a great character.

Two things bother me.  First, I hate the casting of "James Olsen" and it has nothing to do with racial-swapping.  If they wanted Jimmy Olsen to be black, that's fine with me.  My problem is that Jimmy Olsen apparently chose photography as soon as he was done with being a GQ model.  Changing Jimmy's race doesn't really affect the character - changing his personality does.  And the actor does a fine job, but he's playing the wrong part.  When Jimmy admits that he was always scared in Metropolis, I don't buy it.  He's a physically-imposing, in-shape, attractive guy.  There'd be virtually no reason for him to be the coward that he claims to be.  I can understand wanting to hire an attractive guy to be the male lead, but it'd make more since for Winn to be the tall, handsome one.  Or make it another character.  Changing his character like that seems wrong.

Second, I'm not sure I like the way they're using Superman.  I love that he's not on the show - that would be too much.  And I'm sorta glad they didn't go the "Birds of Prey" route, where Batman was just missing.  I like the use of instant messenger to make him a presence on the show without actually showing him.  I like that he's essentially giving Kara her space to be her own hero (I liked how it was handled in both episode 3 and episode 9, where Clark checks in but promises to stay out unless she asks).

But when there's an army of Kryptonians?  When Kara's lost her powers?  Aren't these situations where Clark should show up? 

If I sorta put those two things to the side, I really like it.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I was turned off to the GQ Jimmy until I saw that this is basically a battle-worn Jimmy.  He usually starts out as a "kid" in most tellings of the Superman mythos, but this is the guy that's been Superman's pal for years.  I can also buy the fear and think it's what makes the character.  Jimmy likely didn't start with that, but after years of facing life and death situations with monsters, it would wear on him.   He's got Post Traumatic Stress Disorder which cripples even the manliest of men who serve in our military.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Well, as I've said in many comic-based arguments, I don't know these characters all that well.  I don't read many comics, and most of my knowledge comes from sources like cartoons/movies/TV shows.  And when you look at the guys who have played Jimmy, and the ways he's been presented in other media, I never saw a muscle-bound male model guy.  Heck, when I think about photographers I know in life, there's a reason they're behind the camera and not in front of it smile  Mehcad Brooks looks like he would've spent his career as a TV anchorman.  He'd apply for jobs as a photographer, and they wouldn't let him.  Heck, I'm surprised that Cat is allowing him to be behind the camera.

I just think of Jimmy as being short (5'7) and nerdy.  It's like Andrew Garfield's Spider-Man.  It was hard for me to buy because he was presented as a fairly-popular, athletic, attractive, skateboarding guy before he got bit by the spider.  James' line in the show might say that he's spent years being scared, but I just don't see it.

Now I love the idea that he has super-PTSD.  And I do agree that even the manliest of men can have it.  But, first, I don't think we've seen enough of that (I just watched episode nine so maybe there's more).  But in episode nine, he goes toe-to-toe with Maxwell Lord - he's definitely not shying away from a fight or a dangerous situation.  Second, I think the character could've been *so* powerful if Jimmy/James came to National City literally broken.  And maybe the romance between Jimmy and Kara isn't based on "he's attractive and smart and brave and talented and amazing" and more like a Florence Nightingale situation.  Clark trusts Kara to take care of Jimmy, and she's helping rebuild his life because Clark legitimately thinks Jimmy will snap if he lives one more day in Metropolis.

And for that, I'd go with someone less physically imposing.  I was talking with my friend and I might've switched the casting on Mr. Terrific on Arrow and James on Supergirl.  And the more I think about it, I actually think Grant Gustin would've done an incredible job in that role (although he's also 6'2).

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Re: Flash

Any idea who the guy in the mask in the prison cell on Earth-2 was?  My first thought was Earth 2 Diggle (when we briefly saw him in the first Earth-2 episode) but now I have no idea.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Slider_Quinn21 wrote:

Re: Flash

Any idea who the guy in the mask in the prison cell on Earth-2 was?  My first thought was Earth 2 Diggle (when we briefly saw him in the first Earth-2 episode) but now I have no idea.

Well, the obvious answer is that it's Earth 2 Jay Garrick which means the Jay we've known is not the real one.  One subtle piece of evidence for the masked man's identity - the jail cells.   Jessie was in a cell with bars; it's all that was needed for her.  Barry was in a cell with some kind of glass; something to hinder speedsters.  Well, the masked man was also in a glass cell.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Supergirl--

I agree with your comment about the casting. Winn is more of a Jimmy than Jimmy is. Why not just switch them around?

(I am trying to put aside my frustration at the fact that all of the comic book redheads are the ones who are being race-swapped. Jimmy Olsen has never been played by a redhead, despite being a redhead in the comics. Yet, everyone is saying how great it is to see a different take on the character. I'm not offended, necessarily. I've just been paying attention to the redheads that I do see on TV lately, and I've noticed that they're usually bullies or bad guys. Not cool)

Ultimately, the problem with Supergirl is that the whole premise of the show is that she isn't Superman. The audience is constantly left to wonder why he isn't there. Why is she fighting his villains. Why is she living his life? The show is pretty much just gender-swapping Superman most of the time. And it's a shame, because Supergirl has a story that Superman can't tell. He is essentially human, she is not. He can't really feel the pain of losing his home the way that she can. He can't really feel like an outsider the way that she can. But rather than play up the uniquely Supergirl stories, they just keep making her not-Superman.

She shouldn't be working for a news outlet. Jimmy shouldn't be there. Lucy Lane and General Lane shouldn't be there. Maxwell Lord is just not-Lex Luthor. Astra is just not-Zod. And they keep giving Supergirl Clark's enemies from the start, like Livewire and Bizarro, so... who has Superman actually fought in this universe?

Now, they are going to bring in The Flash. Barry Allen will meet Supergirl before Superman. They will undoubtedly do the race that we usually see between The Flash and Superman. It's all just wrong.

It's like they didn't actually want to do a Supergirl series, but they couldn't get the rights to Superman, so they were stuck with her. Now they have no idea what to do with her, so they just make her not-Superman. I don't feel like they have the same level of excitement about making this show that we see with The Flash or Legends of Tomorrow. It's so sloppy that they regularly have characters shouting huge secret information in the middle of crowded rooms.

I find the show extra frustrating, because it didn't have to be bad. But it is.



Arrow -

Speaking of Curtis... if he is supposed to be an Olympic level athlete, why did they cast someone who is rather physically unremarkable? This is someone who would have been training hard, for way longer than Oliver has been. So, I would have expected more.

That aside, my complaint about Supergirl's writers being bored and lacking energy goes for Arrow as well. Felicity's paralysis storyline wasn't even played up as much as Barry's was, after his Zoom attack. We knew that he wasn't going to stay in the wheelchair after that, but it was still played more dramatically than Felicity's story. Now they have her acting as though she's been this way for years, without a single setback or moment of frustration (much less, months of therapy). They have her sitting in her wheelchair UPSTAIRS at their apartment! And now they've introduced the McGuffin to make it all go away. So the question is, why did they bother? It's like lighting a character on fire and having them just sit there, watching TV, never stopping to notice or care that he is on fire.

I don't understand why Malcolm is sitting at the evil dinner table of doom with Damien's evil sidekicks and hands over Oliver's son, yet doesn't just tell Damien who Green Arrow, Black Canary, Spartan, Overwatch, Speedy, and for that matter, The Flash are, under the masks.

None of the motivation makes sense on the show anymore, and it feels like the writers don't even care about that. These are obvious issues that the writers could easily fix, but they don't.

And why is Oliver willing to bend over backward to stay friendly with the woman who stole his kid from him? I don't get it!



The Flash --
I'm not sure who the man in the mask is. I've seen theories that it could be Earth-2 Wally West, but I don't know. Could there be more than two Jay Garricks? Or could the Jay we know not even be Jay at all (his double is named Hunter Zolomon, after all).

What does everyone here think of Wally West so far? I've been a fan of his in the comics for years, but I'm not really liking this version of him. He comes across as very whiny and selfish, and there is no extra charisma or chemistry with the rest of the cast that makes him anything more than that.

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Informant wrote:

The Flash --
I'm not sure who the man in the mask is. I've seen theories that it could be Earth-2 Wally West, but I don't know. Could there be more than two Jay Garricks? Or could the Jay we know not even be Jay at all (his double is named Hunter Zolomon, after all.

We've taken for granted that Jay was telling the truth and that he lost his speed (the latest story being the Velocity drug).  What if this Jay never had speed to begin with?  I'll admit that this Zoom story is far from elegant and in danger of becoming non-sensical.  I fear the reveal is not going to be satisfying.  I did see one amusing argument, though.  What if the dimension tunnel image of John Wesley Shipp as 1990's Flash was not just a wink?  Could Zoom be the Barry Allen of the 1990's Flash series?

As for Wally, he's kind of bland on the show; but they haven't given him a lot to do yet.  To be honest, I think they would have been better off to introduce Bart Allen / Impulse; he has more of an instant vibrant character that could have shaken things up.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Well, they went ahead and revealed it.  Anyone surprised?

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

A little surprised. Definitely intrigued. I'm curious to see which version of Jay is which, or if any of these people are really Jay at all. And the man in the mask could still be Ronnie, I think. Maybe that is how Zoom learned about Barry's Flash.

I wonder if Barry will find a way to get back to Earth-2 on his own, or if maybe he will be Vibed over there.

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Well I was starting to think that "Jay Garrick" is someone else entirely (so the person we've seen is Hunter Zolomon and another actor would be playing the real Flash/Jay Garrick), but I keep getting stopped when I remember that Wells/Jay had an altercation on Earth 2.  Wells seemed to recognize him as the actual Flash so I guess that's not the case.

The guy on the bench could be Zoom.  But for Jay to also be the guy in the iron mask, there'd need to be an Earth 3 or some sort of complicated time travel.

I'm a little disappointed in the reveal just because I don't think Jay has been a very good character and they *just* did the whole "good guy is the main bad guy" thing last season.  So the reveal is both weak and lazy.  Even if this turns out to be as good as season one, they need to try something different next season.  No hidden reveal, no betrayal, and I'd say no other speedster.  It'd be cool if they could take someone like Mirror Master, who could be someone that Barry might face in a normal "villain of the week" episode, and find a way to make him a powerful enough enemy that he could be a season-long problem.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Agreed. Or maybe we start to see Barry's rogues coming together to take him down.

I'm still waiting to see how this plays out. Zoom still had Jay in his arms there, so it's not like Jay has actually been Zoom all along. But then again, he was probably hiding something... so, is he bad? Is he good? Is he the good half of a guy who was somehow split apart, creating Zoom?

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I would keep in mind too what I pointed out at the beginning of the season; the Zoom plotline could be a take on the Garrick villain called The Rival.   In later presentations The Rival was presented as someone who looked like Jay.  I think that's probably where they're going with this, but I do think it was too soon to go back to that same idea.

For another season wide villain, I would look at Abra Kadabra.  In the comics, he was kind of a goofball who traveled from the 64th century with circuitry woven into his skin that allowed him to perform feats that seemed like magic.   The hook for him is what they did later.  Wally West was fighting him when Abra's defeat lead to the circuitry catching on fire with the skin on Abra's entire body burning.   The resultant short circuit led to Abra shifting out of phase and becoming a kind of ghost for a bit, but he made it back into the solid world by exploiting a Mirror Master device.

The rub here is that when Abra came back, he wasn't goofy anymore; he was scary as hell and a force to be reckoned with.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I preferred Temporal Flux's idea that Zoom was Barry Allen from the 1990s TV series -- with the casting even making sense; of course an older Barry Allen looks like our Barry's father.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

A version of Abra Kadabra would be cool. Start him off as that lightweight villain, and then show how Barry's actions can make things far worse. While not actually his fault, it would still make the matter personal.

Good call.

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

When the heck is DC going to give us our own show on the CW?  My suggestion is a Nightwing show, but I could be talked into just about anything.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I agree! (but maybe don't give us Plastic Man. For some reason, I've never been able to take him seriously)


Actually, just give us Supergirl. We could turn it around.

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

So I'm enjoying Legends of Tomorrow.  It's not great, but it's fun and I think they're having fun playing with some concepts.  The dark future of Star City was pretty cool, and I think it had a lot of fun with the whole Arrow mythology.  As far as I'm concerned, that episode alone was worth launching the series.  I really do hope that it's an anthology series and not this team because I do have some issues with the cast of characters.

Snart is probably the best character on the show, but I'm wondering if they're cheating themselves of a good character on Flash by making him too "good" on LoT.  I know he's been a bit of an ambiguous character, but I think he's always tended to look out for himself (which is why, even though he's been a "good guy" on Flash a couple times, he ends up staying a villain).  But on Legends, it seems like he's more of a selfless character than any of the others.  He seems to be the only one concerned about the mission at times, even when he's on his occasional side-trips to...steal...something?

I don't know.  I guess every episode he's doing something off-book, but he's also always saving the day.  So I guess it'll be interesting to see what happens next time he's on Flash because I'd assume he'd be entirely different once he's back from this mission.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

So I'm enjoying Legends of Tomorrow.  It's not great, but it's fun and I think they're having fun playing with some concepts.  The dark future of Star City was pretty cool, and I think it had a lot of fun with the whole Arrow mythology.  As far as I'm concerned, that episode alone was worth launching the series.  I really do hope that it's an anthology series and not this team because I do have some issues with the cast of characters.

Snart is probably the best character on the show, but I'm wondering if they're cheating themselves of a good character on Flash by making him too "good" on LoT.  I know he's been a bit of an ambiguous character, but I think he's always tended to look out for himself (which is why, even though he's been a "good guy" on Flash a couple times, he ends up staying a villain).  But on Legends, it seems like he's more of a selfless character than any of the others.  He seems to be the only one concerned about the mission at times, even when he's on his occasional side-trips to...steal...something?

I don't know.  I guess every episode he's doing something off-book, but he's also always saving the day.  So I guess it'll be interesting to see what happens next time he's on Flash because I'd assume he'd be entirely different once he's back from this mission.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I'm beginning to wonder if we'll get a pseudo reset button at the end of Legends season one.  The Heatwave situation is on the verge of ruining a good character dynamic for Flash, and I can't imagine they would do that.  There's also the issue of throwing away the present day Hawkman.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

The Hawkman thing is easily resolve, I think. He died in the past, so there are a couple of different ways that they could bring him back, even without bringing him back from the dead.

Snart... I get the potential danger of making him too good, but there is an equal danger in not moving the character in either direction out of fear of upsetting the balance. He started out as a villain and became more layered as time went on, even on The Flash. His arc has to go somewhere, or else it's a waste of time. I don't think he will ever be "Barry Allen" good. I think that he is a big picture good guy, but a street level bad guy. He doesn't want to kill. He just doesn't mind taking things from people.

Heatwave is a problem. He was someone who I could never really see becoming a hero. He doesn't have the same code of honor that Snart has. He's interesting to have around, but what happened in the last two episodes was a natural progression for him.

As for the future of the show, I think that they will probably cycle some characters out. Wentworth and Dominic are supposed to be going back to Prison Break soon, right? So I don't know if they'll be around next year. But I don't think that the show needs to wipe the slate clean every single year. I don't know if Rip will be the constant of the series or not, but if the story for next year warrants keeping Sara or Ray around, I don't want them to get kicked off of the show just because they want to have a new cast every year.

Though I don't think Firestorm will stay. Stein has a wife. He can't spend years and years travelling through time. Even if he goes back to the moment he left, he will still age. And he's not exactly young.

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Well the problem with sticking with Rip and time travel is the idea that they aren't even able to maintain this Vandal Savage story for a full season.  We're 7 episodes in, and they've already had to resort to being marooned in one time, getting sent to the future accidentally, and this past episode they got sent off into space.  Not to mention I'm not even sure they have any real idea how they're going to "stop" Savage in the past.  It seems to me the simplest way would be to attack Savage during any of the hundreds of years where the team would have a distinct technological advantage.  If the issue is having some sort of record of where Savage is (and 1975 was their first chance), they could easily track him by going back to ancient Egypt and then tracking him forward.

So I don't know if making this their central story really works.

What would be cool with LoT, in my opinion - based exclusively on what TF said earlier in the discussion, would be to use this format to tell stories that might not need a full spinoff.  They could do a season dealing with Vixen (introduced as an animated series, then showed up on Arrow) or Nightwing or even Arsenal.  There could be a season dealing with Deathstroke or Earth 2/3/etc.  It'd be different from the title, but I'd actually like to see a Gotham-like season dealing with street crime in Central City or Star City.  Maybe even from the villains' point of view.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I think that format would work. They could keep the "Legends" theme, but alter the rest of it to fit whatever arc they're working with "Legends of Yesterday" "Legends of Magic" "Legends of Oa", etc. I just don't want it to be a firm rule that nobody is allowed to be in more than one season.

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

No, I don't think so either.  And they may have enough success that, like Heroes before it, they aren't able to do the anthology they want.  I just don't know if the "chasing Vandal Savage" angle really works for an entire series.

But, yeah, if they wanted to have Ray mentor a young hero, team Hawkman and Hawkgirl with Vixen, or have Sara join a new Birds of Prey, that'd be fine with me.  I actually think my "low level street crime in the Arrowverse" story would work best with Cold/Heat Wave.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

It might be a good way to take Laurel off of Arrow for a while, so she can return as the Black Canary that isn't a sidekick and who could run the Justice League.

I've actually enjoyed the fact that Legends hasn't forced Vandal into every episode. That would make him and the heroes all look weak and stupid.

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

No, I'm not saying they need to force Vandal in every episode.  But when you have a show with a clear goal (find/kill Vandal Savage), you either need to have a clear/focused story with only a handful of episodes (something like 11-22-63 on Hulu) or you have these situations where you get thrown off course for whatever reason.  "Oh no, we got thrown into the future!" or "Oh no, we gotta go into space!" And those can be fun, but what happens when it happens for the 30th time?  Then I think they can look equally weak or stupid.

Now maybe they get Savage this season and next season is something entirely different.  And even if it was just "Ray Palmer, Time Lord" - I just don't see it.  So that's why I'd prefer to use this show as a way to tell stories that you can't tell on Flash or Arrow.  Particularly since I definitely don't want to see another spinoff.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Yeah, that makes sense.

On another note, I think it may be time to end Arrow. Maybe give it another season, so the flashbacks catch up with the show (not that it matters, since they failed to really explain how Oliver became the man we saw in season 1). The writers seem bored and the other shows are much more enjoyable. I'd rather see the Arrow characters show up on The Flash or Legends from time to time than see Arrow drag on forever.


By the way, how did 11.22.63 turn out? I am waiting to binge watch it once it's all released. It was one of the coolest projects I've worked on though.

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

You're in 11.22.63?  What did you do??

It's pretty good.  Drags a bit but it's compelling.  As a native DFWite, the idea that he's teaching in some fictional place between Dallas and Fort Worth is annoying, but I've gotten passed it.  But it's one of those shows that could've probably dragged on further, but they have one mission with some bumps along the way so they don't have to have the episode where Jake has to do "fun side mission" or whatever smile

As far as Arrow goes, I think Amell has made some sort of reference to only having five seasons.  I'm not sure if they'll stick to that, but it might hold true.  I honestly don't think it's as bad as you've said, and I treat it a bit like Supernatural (it's out of its prime, but it's still enjoyable).  But I do worry that the Arrowverse (now including Supergirl) has spread itself way too thin.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

For me, Arrow has committed some unforgivable storytelling sins. To paralyze one of your central characters and not bother to invest in that story just shows lack of interest. And to set up a pointless mystery (the grave) for no real reason and to have no idea where it is going... They want the big shocking moments, but they couldn't care less about everything surrounding those moments. It's like someone humming a song and only bothering to sing the chorus.


I was an extra for the days that they filmed in Dallas (a speech, the assassination stuff and a couple of other things) and I was a stand-in one day too. Filming in Dealey Plaza in the clothes and with the cars was a really trippy experience. I did some work around Lee Harvey Oswald's house too, which was weird.

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Let's pin the Kennedy assassination on Informant.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I did visit that date multiple times in 2015, after all! (Another movie recreated the assassination not long after 11.22.63)

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

http://io9.gizmodo.com/the-first-offici … 1763814407

I've asked this on another site, but nobody took the question seriously:

How many "homages" will it take before people finally accept the fact that the show is just a stale Superman ripoff? An homage is a clever nod. It's not every episode being taken from the pages of Superman. This is not an homage! This is like calling season 3 of Sliders an homage to 90's film-making.

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I don't think Supergirl is stale.  It's definitely Superman with a lead female, but I still think it's fun.  I think Melissa Benoist is the reason why I like it so much - after not really loving the casting at first, she brings so much warmth to the role.  I think that's something that I think is missing in Cavill's performance that I think existed in Tom Welling's performance (and in previous appearances).

As far as Arrow goes, they're really falling flat on stuff that's supposed to be exciting.  Oliver's "death" and Felicity's attack and subsequent paralysis....they're symptoms of the show wanting to put their characters in danger but don't want to disrupt the status quo.  They're willing to kill fringe characters like Moira and Sara (sorta), but everyone else is pretty safe.  In a world like Arrow, I'd think Oliver would have to deal with death all the time.  That's why I secretly hope that it's Diggle in the grave - it'd shake up the world (and they could then bring on Andy to fill the Diggle/Spartan role, allowing that to be a redemption story).

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Ugh. Andy should have stayed dead.

I just don't get why you would disable a character if you didn't plan to do anything with it. It makes no sense to me. Injuries add texture and depth to a story, like adding rain to a scene. I don't know what they were thinking.

With Supergirl, I think that they're trying so hard to tell Clark's story that they're failing to tell Kara's. She remembers the family that died. She came to a world where she couldn't understand anyone, much less fit into the culture. Being sunny and fun is something that she should have to earn... But they jumped forward a decade and have her Clark's personality, his rogues gallery and his outlook on life. They robbed her of her story. That is a horrible thing to do to a character.

By simply remaking Superman as a girl, she can never be anything except who she isn't. She will never be Superman.

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