Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

In theory, I really like the idea of this season.  In showing both the start of Oliver's journey as the Hood and bringing in a villain directly borne from his sins is interesting.  It shows some of his growth, but the show has been so inconsistent on whether or not Oliver even sees a problem with killing bad guys.  I honestly can't say whether or not he thinks that.

Batman has his "no kill" rule (which he breaks all the time), and while Oliver seems more Batman than Superman, I think Oliver's "no kill" rule is more like Clark's.  I think he avoids killing when he can, but I don't think he has any particular problem killing if other lives are at stake.  For example, if the Joker were Oliver's arch-nemesis, I don't see any reason why Oliver (the Arrow version, at least) wouldn't put an arrow through his heart and be done with it.

That would also separate Oliver from, say, Dexter (of the show of the same name).  Dexter has to kill, and he actually does use his "monster" to only kill people who "deserve" it.  Oliver may enjoy killing, but I think he only enjoys killing bad guys.  If push came to shove, Dexter would kill a good person instead of not killing.  There's no indication that Oliver has anywhere near that problem.

I think a more interesting twist would've been a revelation that Robert Queen's list was a fake or a forgery of some kind.  That many of the people he killed were innocent.  I don't know if that would possibly jive with season one, but the idea that the catalyst for Oliver's entire journey would be built on a lie would be interesting.

One other thing that's been bothering me.  Susan found evidence that linked Oliver to the Bratva to the Green Arrow, who showed up at the same time Oliver did.  But that's not right - the Green Arrow has only been around two years - the one who showed up at the same time as Oliver was "The Arrow" or "The Hood" - and the official story is that he's dead.  Oliver even references it when he declares himself as the Green Arrow.

So as far as Susan should technically be concerned, the bigger story is that Oliver was both the Arrow and the Green Arrow, and that the Arrow and the Green Arrow are the same person.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I bet we could have the best podcast ever. We could have a sixteen-part series on Man of Steel, and then move on to the more controversial stuff.

...but I hate the sound of my own voice. Dueling Bloggers? smile


If you do start a Kickstarter campaign, just give me the money. The new Samsung Galaxy is coming out soon and I need to save money for one, because my S4 is slowing down. So that, and maybe some marketing for my books to reduce the stress level... Then I can promise to pretend to have fun for a while.


Seriously though, I have fun. I get my kicks by seeing good work in movies and television. Man of Steel was beautiful. I enjoy it. Batman v Superman was exciting. I enjoy it. Suicide Squad was genuinely fun. I don't enjoy seeing people praising work that the makers obviously didn't care about. To me, that's not fun. So while we might disagree on what we enjoy and have fun with, I promise that I do have fun. I don't think that you have to sacrifice critical thinking or lower expectations in order to have fun. I don't think that writers or actors should be able to half-ass their work because "Fun!"

Amazon's series, Patriot... most people would see it as simply brooding and depressing and they'd hate it. I see a lot of interesting work going into it. I like it!

I may or may not know the words to the Girl Meets World theme song.

Starlette is fun. And while people have said that Freedom/Hate is too oppressively depressing (it's book one of a dystopian series!), I think that allowing the characters to have those feelings makes their joy more honest and genuine.



Yeah, I think that Oliver probably has that warrior thing going on. He probably enjoys killing bad people and stopping them from doing bad things. I don't think he enjoys taking human life as much as he enjoys stopping the bad guy. Prometheus is the opposite. He is everything that he accuses Oliver of being (killing in the name of his father), but I think all of his motives are just an excuse to kill people and cause chaos. And Evelyn... I have no idea.


Hey, Oliver and I have a lot in common. We enjoy darkness because it serves a greater good!

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Very brief spoilers for Legends of Tomorrow because I only saw the pre-credits sequence.

1. First it was Flashpoint and now Doomworld.  Is this a shared universe or not?  If something like "rewriting history" can happen last week, how can Flash air before LoT and still be normal?  What's crazy is that all the other shows are going on a spring break until late April - so they could've just moved that forward (or moved Legends back a bit) so that the Legends will have "fixed" whatever was going to happen before they come back.  I may be the only one who's bothered by it, but they should be accenting the shared universe - not confusing it.

2. Based on his trophy case, the Legion was able to kill all of Team Arrow and the Flash, but *Felicity* survived?  Felicity??

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Why are you still giving opinions about things you haven't watched? Didn't you learn the sheer stupidity of this after you reviewed the monster busting sequences of SLIDERS REBORN based on reading someone else's email on it instead of actually reading ithe pages yourself?

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I'm also curious as to why Eobard would have made Felicity a masked hero in his world.

I don't think we're supposed to think too much about LoT. We're just supposed to look at the pretty pictures and not wonder about why, say, this "rewritten" reality was so easily zapped out of people with a McGuffin gun. I mean, reality itself was supposedly rewritten. They weren't just new memories that were implanted. It would have been more interesting to have the Legends exist outside of this new reality, since they were in the timestream when it was altered, so they aren't different, but they still have altered versions of themselves to battle. Maybe those doubles would even exist once they fixed things, so there would be two of everyone, thus explaining why none of them really matter to the timeline. Then we could see Sara or Ray show up on the other shows without having to involve the Legends.


Spoilers for next season of Arrow!!!
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It's been reported that Katie Cassidy will be returning to Arrow as a series regular next season. The official report says that she will be playing Black Siren next year, after appearing in the final two episodes of Arrow this year, and the season finale of LoT next week (where she will be playing normal Laurel).

Is it possible that this is a misdirect, and LoT will actually be bringing Laurel back to life? Or would that even be what we want to happen at all? Is Katie more interesting as Black Siren than Black Canary?

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Katie Cassidy is a good actress, but I think the #NoLaurelNoArrow crowd would prefer the real Laurel back and Black Siren would just remind them of what they've lost. I still miss Harry even though the actor never left.

Just to weird people out, I say they should hire Katherine Ryan to play Black Siren as well and they should alternate between shots.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Well I finished both LoT and Flash.  Not only was there no real explanation, but there didn't seem to be much of an attempt to explain what had happened.  The whole thing doesn't make much sense when put up to much thought.

- Were all the other heroes killed, or did the Legion create the world with them already dead?
- There's a bunch of talk about how normal people can't kill a speedster, but Barry's mask is on Damien's trophy case.  If Damien can't kill a speedster, did Thawne kill him?  And if Thawne finally killed Barry (which would be extremely personal), why would he let Damien have the trophy?
- Why is Amaya even there?  In Doomworld, was she also plucked out of time?  Or did the Spear re-write her entire family history (but leave everyone else's mostly in tact).
- It's a world where Cold and Heat Wave own the police, but everything else seems normal?  If they're constantly robbing banks, wouldn't the city be....more destitute?  Who would put their money in banks like that?
- Thawne is working out of STAR Labs.  Where is Wells?  Or Cisco?  Or Caitlin?  They made sure to reference all of Team Arrow but didn't seem to reference Team Flash (unless I missed one of their artifacts on the Trophy Case)
- They're rewriting reality - why wouldn't Heat Wave make himself smarter?  I thought that would've been an interesting twist (although it'd be a weird group dynamic - but they could do a brief Flowers for Algernon moment).
- They still remember their Doomworld lives.  Assuming they do just go back and fix the moment and she stays on the show, is Amaya going to have psychological issues from being a hitman?  Sara wouldn't because she's been a hitman, but Amaya is a true hero.  Being a killer for hire should bother her.
- I don't understand how they can go back in time and get the spear back.  Thawne created all kinds of contingencies - why not create a timeline where they *always* had the spear.  So there's nothing to fix.
- I also don't understand the punishments.  Making Ray an airbrained janitor is funny, but why not make him a janitor in, say, Somalia?  Why put him in a place with the ability to build something to save the day?  Putting Nate in his mom's basement is funny, but why give him the resources to investigate "scars"?  Especially since it doesn't seem like the Legion is regularly checking out and laughing at the misery of these people.  They could've put all of them 100 years before, known they'd been suffering, and it would've been the same difference.

It was just sorta sloppy.  And since Flash and Arrow had episodes outside of Doomworld the same week, it's just awkward timing.  Either time the spring break differently (so Legends is all that's airing) or have fun with Doomworld across all the shows.  Doing neither is just sorta bizarre.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

And I think Arrow wants to keep the Laurel death real.  Call it stubbornness or whatever, but I think people will assume that they're trying to appease the #NoLaurelNoArrow crowd if they bring her back.

So they bring the Earth 2 version, try and rehabilitate her, and everyone's happy.  Except for the Felicity folks.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I got it!

Everyone assumes that the flashbacks will be ending this year. What if they don't? Five years ago, Laurel was alive. So season 1 becomes the flashbacks!

I just saved the producers a ton of money!

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Ha that's awesome.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Two questions, re: Legends

1. They put Merlyn, Darhk, and Cold back in the timeline where they should be.  Is this Thawne's true death?  So the Thawne we saw is post-Eddie?  I'm still confused on that.

2. Does Legends just take place out of the normal Arrowverse?  Because I'm assuming the dinosaurs won't be appearing on Flash or Arrow smile

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I can't really quibble with ANY of Slider_Quinn21's thoughts on LEGENDS. Of all the CW superhero shows, LEGENDS has the least amount of logic to it and the greatest amount of odd narrative errors and unjustified leaps. In Season 1, Hawkgirl got stranded in the past with Ray Palmer and an episode later, it might as well have never happened; in the finale, Hawkgirl got stranded again and randomly found a helmet that she inexplicably knew to be in Rip's possession in the future and used it to plant a message despite the helmet having never been previously introduced onscreen. LEGENDS does not setup its payoffs well and often fails to pay off its setups.

I've written an explanation for Eobard's place in continuity (it's post-Season 1 of THE FLASH) -- http://sliders.tv/bboard/viewtopic.php?pid=5394#p5394 -- but even that explanation notes that the dialogue where Eobard refers to the Season 1 finale and the Season 3 premiere was incorrectly written, an error that the writers missed.

With Season 2, we have Mick betraying the Legends with almost no consequence; after punching him a few times, the Legends once again fight alongside him and there is no consideration to Mick's role on the team and they continue to treat him as their personal attack dog while Mick's loyalties remain questionable. It might as well have never happened. There's mismatched scenes in sequence throughout Season 2 such as the Legends inexplicably letting Rip Hunter get captured and proceeding to kick back with a STAR WARS marathon rather than scouring all reality for their captured friend.

There's a lot of joy and enthusiasm to LEGENDS, but also a bizarre sense that scripts are not being properly reviewed before filming. No show is devoid of error, but the errors on LEGENDS are so obvious. Even if LEGENDS couldn't fit the casts of ARROW and FLASH into Doomworld and needed the LEGENDS cast kept intact, some brief explanation was needed as to why Eobard Thawne kills Barry Allen but spares the Legends or why the WWII time period was left intact for a second effort to regain the Spear.

DOCTOR WHO would have thrown out a quick explanation that the Legion of Doom has never really taken the Legends seriously as a threat and consider them the misfits and rejects compared to the ARROW and FLASH teams and said something about the WWII episode being a fixed point in time needed to anchor the Doomworld reality. LEGENDS doesn't even try.

One gets the sense the DC TV staff need to hire more producers; there are too few people being stretched too thin across ARROW, FLASH, SUPERGIRL and LEGENDS.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Yeah, I don't get Legends. The producers talk as though they have solved all of the problems from season 1, but season 2 was an even bigger mess. Are they putting no thought into this at all?

I do think it'd be interesting if the Legends were responsible for creating the multiverse, but the producers seem to dodge good ideas as though they were diseased somehow.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

What's funny is that I don't really hate it.  I even read an article that stated that Legends is the best CW show because it doesn't get too bogged down in itself (the other shows torture their heroes a bit too much).  In a lot of ways, Legends is a sort of playground for the Arrowverse...mixing and matching heroes and villains and doing storylines that the other shows can't really do (because they're too crazy or too weird).

But ireactions is 100% right - it needs more oversight.  (This is the part where I say they need a Kevin Feige wink ).  I think they're spread too thin, and the replacing talent is either not good enough or not empowered enough to make it work.

He's also right that these are easy fixes.  Keep the legends in the timestream and outside the changes that Thawne did.  Or because they touched the spear, they aren't affected.  Or make it the 4-way crossover.  Or do Doomworld during the hiatus (which they might not have control over, but Berlanti has control of about 1/5 of the CW's lineup....I'm sure he can pull some favors to get the lineup right).

The Thawne explanation makes sense, and outside the one line about Flashpoint, actually lines up.  But I'm about to the point where I consider Legends its own place in the multiverse.  It's Earth 4.  So any changes don't impact Arrow or Flash....just like changes on Arrow and Flash don't impact Supergirl.  I'm also ready to concede that Arrow and Flash aren't concurrent and the timelines only matter on crossovers.  And/or that the crossovers aren't canon smile

I'm interested to see if things mesh better next season when they don't have to worry about weird issues with Supergirl.  Although with *another* show being added to the mix, I'm guessing they're still going to have all kinds of issues.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I think that the LEGENDS showrunners are good -- they both ran CHUCK well -- but on LEGENDS, they don't seem to have been given the authority to fully manage the show. Articles suggest that the executive producers of ARROW and FLASH are doing the same job on LEGENDS except where they are fully developing and reviewing scripts for ARROW and FLASH, they are much more removed from LEGENDS scripting process while still needing to revise and approve each script, and possibly not giving LEGENDS their full attention.

With SUPERGIRL, the lead showrunner is clearly Ali Adler with the ARROW/FLASH producers overseeing but not managing. With LEGENDS -- it's like the show doesn't have a full time story editor and it really shows.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I thought the guy who ran The Tomorrow People was running Legends. Did that change?

I don't think that Black Lightning will impact the Arrowverse too much. They're filming in Atlanta (for the pilot anyway), so it will probably be its own thing.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I think it's kinda funny that they kept "I'm a reporter at Catco" in the opening segment on Supergirl even though Kara was fired.  They'll sometimes change it up for certain episodes...it'd be funny if they changed it to "most people know me as an unemployed bum" or something big_smile

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Now here's something interesting:

http://deadline.com/2017/04/dc-digital- … 202076831/

A new DC Comics focused digital service that's going to offer access to digital comics along with exclusive DC television and movie content - including Young Justice season 3 and a Teen Titans live action series produced by Berlanti.   The interesting bit there is - will the Arrowverse Wally run over to become part of the Titans cast?  Also mentioning we could be one step closer to an Arrowverse Justice League with Nightwing filling the Batman role (or Batman himself showing up like Superman did on his cousin's series).

619 (edited by Slider_Quinn21 2017-04-26 09:22:50)

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

That is interesting.  Hopefully those shows have (relatively) high production value.  If so, they could really do some cool stuff there.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Ugh. Another company that expects me to pay a monthly fee for relatively little content. I am interested in their shows, but I think that a partnership with Amazon could have worked better. Amazon does books as well as video already.

This might be another situation where I either go in for the free trial, or just pay for one month and binge on everything I can in that time frame.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

It's what's coming.  Everyone's wanted a la carte TV for a while, and this is what they're offering.  I don't like it either, but Netflix is pulling a lot of their TV shows/movies to make room for their own stuff.  I'm sure Amazon and Hulu will follow suit once they follow the same model.  HBO is already doing that with their stuff (although apparently they didn't pull their stuff from Amazon as was rumored).

Once/if networks realize they can get more for their own content on their own service, they're going to want to go that direction.  And cable as we know it won't exist....you'll "subscribe" to AMC, HBO, the CW, Netflix, and Amazon and that's how you'll watch.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I guess it makes sense, and it's actually a better system than paying for hundreds of channels that you don't want. Like I said, I can pay for a month of DC's service and watch what I want from them, and then cancel/suspend my account until the next time I want to watch something there.

With Netflix and Amazon, I keep those services all the time. But with other services which only offer a limited selection of shows that I actually care about, I guess this works. It's just a lot of work to juggle all of them.


If I were an app designer, I'd design an app that can manage payments/subscriptions to all of the various services (just the payment sides, not the actual viewing).

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Informant wrote:

If I were an app designer, I'd design an app that can manage payments/subscriptions to all of the various services (just the payment sides, not the actual viewing).

I think that'll be the next evolution.  You'd either tell them what channels you want or tell them what shows you want and they make it work.

If the cable companies are smart, this is what they should be doing.

"I want to watch Gotham, the Flash, Colony, Fargo, the Leftovers, and Texas Rangers baseball.  *click*" and it gives me a price and subscribes me to everything I need. smile

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I need to try Fargo sometime.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Informant wrote:

I need to try Fargo sometime.

Start now.  It's anthology and the seasons only loosely connect.  Season 3 just started last week.  Episode 2 on tonight smile

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I think I'm physically incapable of starting to watch a show from the middle, even if it doesn't matter. I even needed to watch Black Mirror from the beginning.

I might need mental help for this condition.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Well seasons 1 and 2 are great too. smile

(I have the same problem).

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Re: The Once and Future Flash

I appreciate that we went from scene to scene checking on everyone on Team Flash, but where was Oliver? Felicity? Anyone from the Legends?  Did they all give up on Barry?

Just once...I want the Arrowverse to have Team Arrow cover for Team Flash or vice versa when things go down.  They don't really seem to ever consider it.  Team Arrow is responsible for Star City and Team Flash is responsible for Central City.  They'll team up, but they don't really leave their jurisdiction, do they? smile

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I think Future Barry and Future Oliver would get along really well. They can hang out in rundown lairs, discussing bad wigs.

I guess the world got over the fact that HR shares a face with a guy who is believed to be a mass murderer?

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Informant wrote:

I guess the world got over the fact that HR shares a face with a guy who is believed to be a mass murderer?

Have they ever tried giving an explanation for how Harry and/or HR even lives on Earth 1?  Does he have a fake ID?  A credit card?  Did/do they both live at STAR labs?  Does HR have any money?  It's basically a Sliders situation....he shouldn't exist.

Now that I think about it, money is never mentioned.  Are Caitlin and Cisco still employed at STAR Labs?  Who owns it?  Did Harrison Wells leave it to one of them?  And, if so, did he also leave other money?  Who's financing any of this?

At least with Arrow, they've used Queen money to pay for everything.  Although I have no idea whether or not Oliver has any money or if Felicity is still running PalmerTech or if any of those businesses still exist.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

HR uses an illusion to make everyone outside of Team Flash see him as his business partner from his world. I'm assuming that they set him up with an ID and all of that, but off camera.

Eobard left Star Labs to Barry, so he owns the whole operation. I assume that there was some money involved too.

Felicity was booted from Palmer Tech, but I am assuming that she still has stock or had a huge salary while she was there. She and Thea are the only ones with money now, I think.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Now that you mention those, I remember all that smile  Except the part about Thawne leaving STAR Labs to Barry.  Would that have been public?  Is Barry rich now?

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Yup, it was public. Barry also owns the building that they all assembled in for the crossover this year.

I guess he is rich, but they really never mention it or play that card. He's just TV rich, where he miraculously had money for whatever he needs, despite having a pretty low paying job.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Hahah, I'm probably revealing how I'm usually messing around on my phone or my laptop when I watch these shows smile

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

A couple notes about Arrow this week:

1. I wish that Felicity's boyfriend had been someone the audience cared about a little more...or we'd been led to believe that Felicity cared a little more.  I don't necessarily buy that she'd be this gung ho to take down Chase because of it.  I'd almost forgotten that his death is why she's so mad.

2. I like humanizing Wild Dog, but is "she burned herself on soup because I was drunk" the best reason for a man not to want to see his daughter?

3. No flashbacks this week.  How'd we feel about that?

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I hasn't noticed that there was no flashback. Interesting.

And I forgot about Felicity's boyfriend too. Interesting.

And why was this super hacker kept so mysterious?

The daughter thing was weird. I think they should have played that differently. It was an awkward story.

Curtis was super annoying this week.

637 (edited by Slider_Quinn21 2017-04-27 17:28:57)

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Informant wrote:

And I forgot about Felicity's boyfriend too. Interesting.

Well as I was watching, I kept thinking "Why does she keep going this far to stop Prometheus?  Wouldn't this have been better for other villains?  I mean Darhk caused her to nuke a town." But then I realized her cop friend.  And since there was a 1/2 chance that the cop friend was going to *be* Prometheus, I didn't really get attached to him.

And why was this super hacker kept so mysterious?

I'm guessing he'll be a big bad either for an episode or maybe more.  Maybe like the Darhk tease in season 3.

The daughter thing was weird. I think they should have played that differently. It was an awkward story.

It's bizarre because they're trying to show that he's dangerous but not dangerous....and his excuses are just childish.  He thinks he's a danger to his daughter because she burned herself on soup?  Not because he's a vigilante?  Not because he kills people?  The soup?!?

Having Lance force him to face his daughter was a cool move.  Everything else was written really poorly.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Agreed. They should have used his anger issues and vigilante angle. Lance lost both daughters, Oliver lost his mother and best friend, Felicity lost her generic brand boyfriend, Dinah lost her partner/boyfriend, Rory lost his entire town... Maybe Rene could just see the pattern here and want to keep his daughter safe.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Dear God, Future Barry has my haircut.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

The cut isn't as offensive as the bad wig-ness of it.

And at some point, Grant needs to hit the gym and take some protein supplements. He's a superhero, for crying out loud.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Informant wrote:

And at some point, Grant needs to hit the gym and take some protein supplements. He's a superhero, for crying out loud.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/33308/1163586-fatflash.jpg

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

That's funny. smile

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

So what is the likelihood that Savitar is future future Barry?

I mean, anything is possible.  Right?

--Chaser9

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I think that's the primary theory out there.

My theory is that he's Ronnie Raymond from the future.  That's why he went to Caitlin and why she trusted him immediately.  I'm probably wrong.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

It's be cool it it were Ronnie, but I don't see how he would become a speedster. Though you could say that the Savitar suit would contain his nuclear power.

Then again, do we want the real Ronnie to be bad?

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

For the final scene of the last episode, Ronnie makes the most sense.  He's the person who has a connection to both Caitlin (obvious) and Killer Frost (Deathstorm from Earth-2).  Caitlin wanted to kill Barry so I don't know why she'd immediately trust a future version of Barry.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Unless Savitar is Caitlin's mother!

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Re: Savitar revelation.  Spoilers.

Does it make sense?  I mean, I can see that Barry could be twisted.  And I could see that Barry's own mistakes are what's led to this point so it makes sense that his "demons" would "manifest" in himself becoming a villain.

But I still think back to the Caitlin moment where she immediately trusts him.  Even if she saw the scars, she didn't trust Barry.  It's why my Ronnie theory makes more sense - he's someone she'd immediately begin working with.  Barry...not so much.

Also, is he a time remnant?  Because this presumably isn't the Barry that we saw last episode....it's another one?  Or is it that Barry from even further out?  Or is that impossible since Savitar is trapped in the Speed Force?  And how can Tracy's plan be linked to trapping Savitar in the Speed Force through his metal when Wally (and then Jay) were both trapped in the Speed Force without the metal?  Is the metal the key to the jail but not necessarily the jail itself?

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I'm not sure how to answer any of those questions. Savitar didn't look very much older than our Barry... so... there's that.

It should tie into Flashpoint somehow. Make Savitar a version of Barry from that world that our Barry went back and destroyed, killing everyone that Savitar loved. But that makes our Barry a villain too, I guess.

I don't know. It sounds like a big shocking reveal on paper, but we'll have to see how it plays out.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I've seen some talk on Flash that it needs a light reboot.  I'm hoping that defeating "himself" is the end of Barry feeling sorry for himself and feeling bad about his past.  If this is a 3-year arc, and they can move passed it to something more fun next season...I think it'll be fine. 

They've already said that next season won't have a speedster as a big bad.  Y'all would know better than me...have they basically already used every speedster villain?

I wouldn't mind if they stretched out of the Flash mythos.  They can't use Batman villains (Gotham) or Superman villains (Supergirl).  But what about other big-time DC villains?  Would they be allowed to use someone like Siniestro?  Or Amazo?  Or Ares?  Or even someone like Black Adam?

Especially if they aren't going to use any of those heroes.  Wouldn't there villains still be around either way?