Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

In theory, I really like the idea of this season.  In showing both the start of Oliver's journey as the Hood and bringing in a villain directly borne from his sins is interesting.  It shows some of his growth, but the show has been so inconsistent on whether or not Oliver even sees a problem with killing bad guys.  I honestly can't say whether or not he thinks that.

Batman has his "no kill" rule (which he breaks all the time), and while Oliver seems more Batman than Superman, I think Oliver's "no kill" rule is more like Clark's.  I think he avoids killing when he can, but I don't think he has any particular problem killing if other lives are at stake.  For example, if the Joker were Oliver's arch-nemesis, I don't see any reason why Oliver (the Arrow version, at least) wouldn't put an arrow through his heart and be done with it.

That would also separate Oliver from, say, Dexter (of the show of the same name).  Dexter has to kill, and he actually does use his "monster" to only kill people who "deserve" it.  Oliver may enjoy killing, but I think he only enjoys killing bad guys.  If push came to shove, Dexter would kill a good person instead of not killing.  There's no indication that Oliver has anywhere near that problem.

I think a more interesting twist would've been a revelation that Robert Queen's list was a fake or a forgery of some kind.  That many of the people he killed were innocent.  I don't know if that would possibly jive with season one, but the idea that the catalyst for Oliver's entire journey would be built on a lie would be interesting.

One other thing that's been bothering me.  Susan found evidence that linked Oliver to the Bratva to the Green Arrow, who showed up at the same time Oliver did.  But that's not right - the Green Arrow has only been around two years - the one who showed up at the same time as Oliver was "The Arrow" or "The Hood" - and the official story is that he's dead.  Oliver even references it when he declares himself as the Green Arrow.

So as far as Susan should technically be concerned, the bigger story is that Oliver was both the Arrow and the Green Arrow, and that the Arrow and the Green Arrow are the same person.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I bet we could have the best podcast ever. We could have a sixteen-part series on Man of Steel, and then move on to the more controversial stuff.

...but I hate the sound of my own voice. Dueling Bloggers? smile


If you do start a Kickstarter campaign, just give me the money. The new Samsung Galaxy is coming out soon and I need to save money for one, because my S4 is slowing down. So that, and maybe some marketing for my books to reduce the stress level... Then I can promise to pretend to have fun for a while.


Seriously though, I have fun. I get my kicks by seeing good work in movies and television. Man of Steel was beautiful. I enjoy it. Batman v Superman was exciting. I enjoy it. Suicide Squad was genuinely fun. I don't enjoy seeing people praising work that the makers obviously didn't care about. To me, that's not fun. So while we might disagree on what we enjoy and have fun with, I promise that I do have fun. I don't think that you have to sacrifice critical thinking or lower expectations in order to have fun. I don't think that writers or actors should be able to half-ass their work because "Fun!"

Amazon's series, Patriot... most people would see it as simply brooding and depressing and they'd hate it. I see a lot of interesting work going into it. I like it!

I may or may not know the words to the Girl Meets World theme song.

Starlette is fun. And while people have said that Freedom/Hate is too oppressively depressing (it's book one of a dystopian series!), I think that allowing the characters to have those feelings makes their joy more honest and genuine.



Yeah, I think that Oliver probably has that warrior thing going on. He probably enjoys killing bad people and stopping them from doing bad things. I don't think he enjoys taking human life as much as he enjoys stopping the bad guy. Prometheus is the opposite. He is everything that he accuses Oliver of being (killing in the name of his father), but I think all of his motives are just an excuse to kill people and cause chaos. And Evelyn... I have no idea.


Hey, Oliver and I have a lot in common. We enjoy darkness because it serves a greater good!

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Very brief spoilers for Legends of Tomorrow because I only saw the pre-credits sequence.

1. First it was Flashpoint and now Doomworld.  Is this a shared universe or not?  If something like "rewriting history" can happen last week, how can Flash air before LoT and still be normal?  What's crazy is that all the other shows are going on a spring break until late April - so they could've just moved that forward (or moved Legends back a bit) so that the Legends will have "fixed" whatever was going to happen before they come back.  I may be the only one who's bothered by it, but they should be accenting the shared universe - not confusing it.

2. Based on his trophy case, the Legion was able to kill all of Team Arrow and the Flash, but *Felicity* survived?  Felicity??

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Why are you still giving opinions about things you haven't watched? Didn't you learn the sheer stupidity of this after you reviewed the monster busting sequences of SLIDERS REBORN based on reading someone else's email on it instead of actually reading ithe pages yourself?

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I'm also curious as to why Eobard would have made Felicity a masked hero in his world.

I don't think we're supposed to think too much about LoT. We're just supposed to look at the pretty pictures and not wonder about why, say, this "rewritten" reality was so easily zapped out of people with a McGuffin gun. I mean, reality itself was supposedly rewritten. They weren't just new memories that were implanted. It would have been more interesting to have the Legends exist outside of this new reality, since they were in the timestream when it was altered, so they aren't different, but they still have altered versions of themselves to battle. Maybe those doubles would even exist once they fixed things, so there would be two of everyone, thus explaining why none of them really matter to the timeline. Then we could see Sara or Ray show up on the other shows without having to involve the Legends.


Spoilers for next season of Arrow!!!
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It's been reported that Katie Cassidy will be returning to Arrow as a series regular next season. The official report says that she will be playing Black Siren next year, after appearing in the final two episodes of Arrow this year, and the season finale of LoT next week (where she will be playing normal Laurel).

Is it possible that this is a misdirect, and LoT will actually be bringing Laurel back to life? Or would that even be what we want to happen at all? Is Katie more interesting as Black Siren than Black Canary?

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Katie Cassidy is a good actress, but I think the #NoLaurelNoArrow crowd would prefer the real Laurel back and Black Siren would just remind them of what they've lost. I still miss Harry even though the actor never left.

Just to weird people out, I say they should hire Katherine Ryan to play Black Siren as well and they should alternate between shots.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Well I finished both LoT and Flash.  Not only was there no real explanation, but there didn't seem to be much of an attempt to explain what had happened.  The whole thing doesn't make much sense when put up to much thought.

- Were all the other heroes killed, or did the Legion create the world with them already dead?
- There's a bunch of talk about how normal people can't kill a speedster, but Barry's mask is on Damien's trophy case.  If Damien can't kill a speedster, did Thawne kill him?  And if Thawne finally killed Barry (which would be extremely personal), why would he let Damien have the trophy?
- Why is Amaya even there?  In Doomworld, was she also plucked out of time?  Or did the Spear re-write her entire family history (but leave everyone else's mostly in tact).
- It's a world where Cold and Heat Wave own the police, but everything else seems normal?  If they're constantly robbing banks, wouldn't the city be....more destitute?  Who would put their money in banks like that?
- Thawne is working out of STAR Labs.  Where is Wells?  Or Cisco?  Or Caitlin?  They made sure to reference all of Team Arrow but didn't seem to reference Team Flash (unless I missed one of their artifacts on the Trophy Case)
- They're rewriting reality - why wouldn't Heat Wave make himself smarter?  I thought that would've been an interesting twist (although it'd be a weird group dynamic - but they could do a brief Flowers for Algernon moment).
- They still remember their Doomworld lives.  Assuming they do just go back and fix the moment and she stays on the show, is Amaya going to have psychological issues from being a hitman?  Sara wouldn't because she's been a hitman, but Amaya is a true hero.  Being a killer for hire should bother her.
- I don't understand how they can go back in time and get the spear back.  Thawne created all kinds of contingencies - why not create a timeline where they *always* had the spear.  So there's nothing to fix.
- I also don't understand the punishments.  Making Ray an airbrained janitor is funny, but why not make him a janitor in, say, Somalia?  Why put him in a place with the ability to build something to save the day?  Putting Nate in his mom's basement is funny, but why give him the resources to investigate "scars"?  Especially since it doesn't seem like the Legion is regularly checking out and laughing at the misery of these people.  They could've put all of them 100 years before, known they'd been suffering, and it would've been the same difference.

It was just sorta sloppy.  And since Flash and Arrow had episodes outside of Doomworld the same week, it's just awkward timing.  Either time the spring break differently (so Legends is all that's airing) or have fun with Doomworld across all the shows.  Doing neither is just sorta bizarre.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

And I think Arrow wants to keep the Laurel death real.  Call it stubbornness or whatever, but I think people will assume that they're trying to appease the #NoLaurelNoArrow crowd if they bring her back.

So they bring the Earth 2 version, try and rehabilitate her, and everyone's happy.  Except for the Felicity folks.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I got it!

Everyone assumes that the flashbacks will be ending this year. What if they don't? Five years ago, Laurel was alive. So season 1 becomes the flashbacks!

I just saved the producers a ton of money!

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Ha that's awesome.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Two questions, re: Legends

1. They put Merlyn, Darhk, and Cold back in the timeline where they should be.  Is this Thawne's true death?  So the Thawne we saw is post-Eddie?  I'm still confused on that.

2. Does Legends just take place out of the normal Arrowverse?  Because I'm assuming the dinosaurs won't be appearing on Flash or Arrow smile

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I can't really quibble with ANY of Slider_Quinn21's thoughts on LEGENDS. Of all the CW superhero shows, LEGENDS has the least amount of logic to it and the greatest amount of odd narrative errors and unjustified leaps. In Season 1, Hawkgirl got stranded in the past with Ray Palmer and an episode later, it might as well have never happened; in the finale, Hawkgirl got stranded again and randomly found a helmet that she inexplicably knew to be in Rip's possession in the future and used it to plant a message despite the helmet having never been previously introduced onscreen. LEGENDS does not setup its payoffs well and often fails to pay off its setups.

I've written an explanation for Eobard's place in continuity (it's post-Season 1 of THE FLASH) -- http://sliders.tv/bboard/viewtopic.php?pid=5394#p5394 -- but even that explanation notes that the dialogue where Eobard refers to the Season 1 finale and the Season 3 premiere was incorrectly written, an error that the writers missed.

With Season 2, we have Mick betraying the Legends with almost no consequence; after punching him a few times, the Legends once again fight alongside him and there is no consideration to Mick's role on the team and they continue to treat him as their personal attack dog while Mick's loyalties remain questionable. It might as well have never happened. There's mismatched scenes in sequence throughout Season 2 such as the Legends inexplicably letting Rip Hunter get captured and proceeding to kick back with a STAR WARS marathon rather than scouring all reality for their captured friend.

There's a lot of joy and enthusiasm to LEGENDS, but also a bizarre sense that scripts are not being properly reviewed before filming. No show is devoid of error, but the errors on LEGENDS are so obvious. Even if LEGENDS couldn't fit the casts of ARROW and FLASH into Doomworld and needed the LEGENDS cast kept intact, some brief explanation was needed as to why Eobard Thawne kills Barry Allen but spares the Legends or why the WWII time period was left intact for a second effort to regain the Spear.

DOCTOR WHO would have thrown out a quick explanation that the Legion of Doom has never really taken the Legends seriously as a threat and consider them the misfits and rejects compared to the ARROW and FLASH teams and said something about the WWII episode being a fixed point in time needed to anchor the Doomworld reality. LEGENDS doesn't even try.

One gets the sense the DC TV staff need to hire more producers; there are too few people being stretched too thin across ARROW, FLASH, SUPERGIRL and LEGENDS.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Yeah, I don't get Legends. The producers talk as though they have solved all of the problems from season 1, but season 2 was an even bigger mess. Are they putting no thought into this at all?

I do think it'd be interesting if the Legends were responsible for creating the multiverse, but the producers seem to dodge good ideas as though they were diseased somehow.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

What's funny is that I don't really hate it.  I even read an article that stated that Legends is the best CW show because it doesn't get too bogged down in itself (the other shows torture their heroes a bit too much).  In a lot of ways, Legends is a sort of playground for the Arrowverse...mixing and matching heroes and villains and doing storylines that the other shows can't really do (because they're too crazy or too weird).

But ireactions is 100% right - it needs more oversight.  (This is the part where I say they need a Kevin Feige wink ).  I think they're spread too thin, and the replacing talent is either not good enough or not empowered enough to make it work.

He's also right that these are easy fixes.  Keep the legends in the timestream and outside the changes that Thawne did.  Or because they touched the spear, they aren't affected.  Or make it the 4-way crossover.  Or do Doomworld during the hiatus (which they might not have control over, but Berlanti has control of about 1/5 of the CW's lineup....I'm sure he can pull some favors to get the lineup right).

The Thawne explanation makes sense, and outside the one line about Flashpoint, actually lines up.  But I'm about to the point where I consider Legends its own place in the multiverse.  It's Earth 4.  So any changes don't impact Arrow or Flash....just like changes on Arrow and Flash don't impact Supergirl.  I'm also ready to concede that Arrow and Flash aren't concurrent and the timelines only matter on crossovers.  And/or that the crossovers aren't canon smile

I'm interested to see if things mesh better next season when they don't have to worry about weird issues with Supergirl.  Although with *another* show being added to the mix, I'm guessing they're still going to have all kinds of issues.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I think that the LEGENDS showrunners are good -- they both ran CHUCK well -- but on LEGENDS, they don't seem to have been given the authority to fully manage the show. Articles suggest that the executive producers of ARROW and FLASH are doing the same job on LEGENDS except where they are fully developing and reviewing scripts for ARROW and FLASH, they are much more removed from LEGENDS scripting process while still needing to revise and approve each script, and possibly not giving LEGENDS their full attention.

With SUPERGIRL, the lead showrunner is clearly Ali Adler with the ARROW/FLASH producers overseeing but not managing. With LEGENDS -- it's like the show doesn't have a full time story editor and it really shows.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I thought the guy who ran The Tomorrow People was running Legends. Did that change?

I don't think that Black Lightning will impact the Arrowverse too much. They're filming in Atlanta (for the pilot anyway), so it will probably be its own thing.