Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I thought CRISIS ON EARTH–X was good and a strong correction on INVASION last year. The creators filmed four episodes of CRISIS when they would have normally filmed four of ARROW, four of FLASH, four of LEGENDS and four of SUPERGIRL.

As a result, the lead cast (Oliver, Barry and Kara) are evenly distributed across the entire story as opposed to last year where they were front and center for the first, reduced to cameos for the second and only returned fully for the last half of the third episode.

With CRISIS, Parts 1 – 2 feature them prominently. Part 3 has them appearing just as much but has them confined to locations (Kara at STAR Labs, Barry and Oliver either at the Nazi base or the Resistance HQ). In Part 4, the Legends take center stage to start, but Oliver, Barry and Kara resume their lead roles at the 1/3 mark.

As with last year, the crossover frontloads their screentime, then reduces them but has them return in full force for the end. This time, however, the supporting cast were sufficiently foregrounded that it doesn't feel like actor unavailability as much as giving the other characters their spotlight. Jax and Stein have a great rapport and arc throughout the crossover. Alex's uncertainty with a post–Maggie sex life is hilarious. When Mr. Terrific, Wild Dog and Black Canary show up in Part 3 to defend STAR Labs, it feels like a delightful surprise and when the Atom and Nate come to the rescue in Part 4, it feels appropriate to spend some time with them after lavishing so much attention on the stars.

Stein's exit from the series was meaningful and everything Professor Arturo's death wasn't on SLIDERS. It wasn't necessary to kill Stein off, but I appreciate the show wanting to take Victor Garber's departure as an opportunity for tragedy and growth and accept that he wouldn't return as a guest-star or come back next year. Where INVASION felt overblown, incidental and quickly forgotten, CRISIS will leave lingering impact on all the shows: Alex has gotten over Maggie; Barry and Iris are married; Oliver and Felicity are married; the Legends have lost their father figure.

Also, the CRISIS villains were much more effective than INVASION. The Dominators were generic thugs who wanted to invade Earth by attacking one rooftop. In contrast, Overgirl, Dark Archer and the Reverse Flash had clear goals in wanting Kara's heart. In terms of production, the scale was so much larger and yet the story was so much smaller and much more effective.

Production sounds like it was a bit desperate at times. Apparently, even with a four week shooting schedule for four episodes and the crew of four TV shows working on the project, actor availability was an issue. Every single actor had multiple photo doubles filming scenes concurrently so that any sequence that didn't need the actor's face onscreen was used for maximum advantage. The Dark Archer and Overgirl had masks so that it wouldn't be necessary for Amell and Benoist to play them except when exposed. It worked.

Amell says that taking four weeks to shoot four episodes (instead of 16) threw all the shows badly off schedule and that they can't do it again next year -- but from a quality standpoint, the INVASION approach was rather disappointing to me and I hope they don't return to it. It'd be best to accept that a crossover, to serve all the characters and get all of them onscreen for satisfying periods of time, will push back the subsequent episodes.

There were a bunch of minor issues with CRISIS. There were a few shots where the heroes are tag-teaming a villain while Nazi soldiers are firing guns offscreen (at civilians?) which almost makes one think the heroes care more about grudge matches than saving people. I was confused as to why Overgirl and Dark Archer, seeking Supergirl's heart, target an Earth on which Kara doesn't live. I missed the explanation for why only Sarah, Jax, Stein and Mick were at the wedding while the other Legends weren't. These are small issues.

My main problem with CRISIS: Reverse Flash has gone from confusing to inexplicable. LEGENDS got confused with showing Eobard Thawne after his erasure in the FLASH Season 1 finale. The explanation was confusing: he says he escaped into the Speed Force but was captured by Barry for "Flashpoint" except the Thawne in "Flashpoint" was the pre-Season 1 version. Ignore the reference to getting captured and it works to say that "Flashpoint" altered history so that Thawne, before he was wiped out of reality, escaped into the Speed Force, leading to his appearance in LEGENDS -- which ended with him being consumed by the wraith–form of Hunter Zolomon.

CRISIS offers no explanation for how Thawne survived that. It's also unclear why Thawne is working with the Earth–X villains, what he hopes to gain from associating with them or why this arrogant master manipulator and genius is following their plans and serving their goals. Thawne's time on THE FLASH was all about maneuvering Barry, Caitlin, Cisco, Joe and others. His tenure on LEGENDS was marked with controlling Damian and Merlyn. Downgrading Thawne to Overgirl and the Dark Archer's henchman is awkward.

Thawne also doesn't even offer any explanation for why he's played by Tom Cavanagh beyond a joke. He might as well have said, "Matt Letscher was busy this week." There's also a serious problem with Cavanagh's performance as Thawne which recalls neither the measured, aloof manipulator of Dr. Wells or the smug, superior antagonist of LEGENDS.

Instead, Cavanagh plays Thawne as clownishly malicious and it's a strange acting choice. Previously, Cavanagh and Letscher gave Thawne a restrained danger where, because he was so distant, you could never sure if he'd be (faux) avuncular or terrifyingly homicidal. But this time, Cavanaugh's Thawne is so unsubtle that he's predictable and because he's following Overgirl and the Dark Archer's orders, he's not scary. He's just silly.

And then we come to the end where Barry for some reason doesn't kill or incapacitate Thawne. I'm not sure what to think. The truth is, I too would hesitate to kill Thawne because I have no idea how he's alive again or why he's working with the Earth X villains. Without any clear sense of where Thawne's at in his personal timeline, without any clarity as to how killing Thawne could change the past or present (last time, a black hole opened), it makes a sort of sense for Barry to let Thawne go.

The problem is that none of this is onscreen. It's confusing why Barry thinks Thawne will simply leave the fight because the Flash pinned him. It's baffling why Thawne exits the scene willingly rather than rejoining the battle and forcing Barry to fight him again. Thawne's motivations are unfathomable to me here.  Now it falls to subsequent FLASH episodes to explain how Thawne is alive and what he wants now.

It's rather sad that the most significant villain of THE FLASH has become a muddled mess of confusing exposition and mystifying contradictions and reduced to being Dark Archer and Overgirl's pawn. Cavanagh doesn't play this as the original Thawne; I wonder if this was an acting choice or the result of Cavanagh not having played this character for over two years and forgotten what he was like, or if he was trying to distinguish Thawne from Harry and went too far.

The simplest explanation, of course: this isn't Eobard Thawne. It's a time remnant.

752 (edited by Slider_Quinn21 2017-11-30 13:41:59)

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

The Thawne stuff is crazy because it completely diminishes Eddie's sacrifice at the end of season one.  It was fun to have him as a villain in Legends because having a speedster villain against non-speedster characters is fun (because speedster/speedster fights are always more like a race with an occasional punch).

But seriously, Eddied *killed himself* to protect the team and destroy Thawne once and for all.  Now, through various vague explanations, he's back.  So they would've been better off doing anything else and keeping Eddie alive.

Listen, I get it that Flash Season 3 wasn't well received, but I don't think an Evil Barry would've been that outlandish.  Maybe Grant Gustin wasn't available to play two characters, but I think it *has* to be a result of Savitar backlash.  So they go with Thawne, which is fine, but they're doing a parallel Earth episode.....use Earth X Thawne.  Or say it's a Wells clone who got super speed.  Make it an evil Wally.  Or an Evil Jessie.  Evil Jay.  Convoluting Thawne's character (again, destroying Eddie's sacrifice) was just a bizarre choice.

And I get the reasons to kill Stein off.  It does allow for Stein's character to really leave an impact, and his funeral really puts weight on the whole thing.  But if they'd just dropped him off at home and promised to leave him alone, I think that would've worked.  Unlike, say, The Avengers, I don't think the situation demanded a sacrifice, but I do understand why they felt it was needed and killed off a character who was leaving anyway...as opposed to killing off, say, Wild Dog or Caitlin that would have an even bigger impact on the principal shows.

All that being said, though.....the way they did it was awful.  Random Nazi goon did it?  By shooting him as he wandered off?  Make evil Kara do it.  Make Fuhrer Ollie do it, rationalizing why Oliver felt the need to kill him instead of incapacitating him.  Or at least give the Legends a chance to get their revenge.  The guy that shot Stein is vaporized by the actions of Stein himself, right?  He died before Stein did.

I wouldn't have killed him, but the way they did it was very lame.  Even when it was happening, and Stein said they were going to split up I wondered why.  Yes, they needed two tasks done some ways apart, but it looked like Jax could've hotwired and flown across the room in the time it took Stein to get there.  At least drop the old man off where he can get to cover faster instead of making the old guy run across a room.

I'm eager to watch Part 4 again (I kept it on my DVR) because I thought the action sequences were very fun.  There was some uncanny valley stuff with some of the CGI with Barry and Supergirl, but I thought, overall, the CGI was fantastic for TV.

I hope they're able to do another one of these next year.  I understand why they might not be able to....but I'd be okay dropping 2-3 episodes per show and getting a crossover.  A lot of the Arrowverse random episodes are just filler, and this event moved so many stories forward.  It's a great trade.

EDIT - It probably wouldn't have worked to have Evil Wally as Evil Flash since he doesn't really fit in with the Nazi hiring principles.  Whoops.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Well, Eddie's sacrifice did lead to Thawne's automatically arranged confession tape to be released, leading to Henry Allen being released from prison and he did save the team in that moment as Thawne was going to kill Barry and then Caitlin and then Cisco and then Joe and he probably would've killed Tina McGee afterwards, too. Eddie's sacrifice also led to opening the black hole that almost destroyed Central City and cost Ronnie Raymond his life, so it's not like it was all good.

As for Dr. Stein, I think it just goes to indicate that death sucks. Stein died taking a risk by separating from Jax to divide and conquer. He got shot by a Nazi goon which just goes to show that we don't all end in a blaze of glory. With what would likely have been his dying breath, he triggered the gateway to get the sliders home and then he gave his life once again so that Quinn could live. I mean -- oh, you know what I mean. The randomness is actually quite true to life, and is countered by Stein choosing both times to use his death to save someone.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Slider_Quinn21 wrote:

EDIT - It probably wouldn't have worked to have Evil Wally as Evil Flash since he doesn't really fit in with the Nazi hiring principles.  Whoops.

It does bring up an interesting thought, though.  With the full suit and total mask Earth X used (not to mention the blur trick), no one would necessarily know the guy in the suit was black.  With Wally X revealed after damage in a fight, the Nazis would turn on him; and there’s a lot of different angles to take from that point on. What is Wally X’s story and why did he want to be part of the Nazi super team?

Wherever that story went, it would have likely been much more interesting than the convoluted Thawne thing we got.

Incidentally, Thawne taunted Flash at the end by gleefully wondering what face he’ll use the next time he and Flash meet.  What if Thawne comes back with Wally’s face?

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

TemporalFlux wrote:

Incidentally, Thawne taunted Flash at the end by gleefully wondering what face he’ll use the next time he and Flash meet.  What if Thawne comes back with Wally’s face?

It'd certainly be better than how they're using Wally now.  Is he back now?  Or not?  I figured he came back at the end of the last Flash episode to be a part of the crossover but he was only in the first section - he didn't return to the big fight (or, even more bizarrely, return to rescue his sister). 

Wally was actually a decent candidate to be killed off as well.  If he's not going to be on Legends and they're creatively frustrated by two speedsters on the team, at least let him go out a hero.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Just finished the crossover.

I think that if they want to keep doing these (and while they can be fun, I'm not sure that they actually should keep doing these 4-way crossovers, as opposed to smaller crossovers spread across the season) they should just film them either during the summer, or as the first episodes of each series for the season, and then air them during the winter break. Supernatural usually does this when Jensen Ackles directs, so he has time to prep his episode before the season starts.

I agree with a lot of what all of you were saying, so I won't go into everything. The Thawne stuff makes absolutely no sense at all. I don't get why they felt a need to bring him back, and I don't get how they did it without remembering how they did it. These writers get very lazy, and it shows. He also made a reference to having fought Superman in the future. So, does Superman end up on Earth 1 at some point?

The Caitlin thing is similar. In one scene, she looked like Caitlin Frost from the end of last season (white hair, brown eyes, and Caitlin's overall posture), but they never said anything about it. It's like they just let Danielle film a scene without the contact lenses for some reason. The Snow/Frost story continues to confuse, but whatever.

There was a real opportunity for them to do interesting things with Kara's double. She would have been from more or less the same Krypton as "our" Kara, only to be found by Nazis when she crashed here. She wasn't a baby when that happened. So how did this Kara, who would have been a good person when she landed, become this monster? And why didn't normal Kara throw out a line like "Do you think this is what our parents had in mind when they sent you here?"
I also thought that Melissa's acting as evil Kara was pretty weak. Overall, the villains were pretty one-dimensional (and that is a problem, even when writing Nazis), but she didn't do the mustache twirling very well.

Sara... If I say what I want to say, I will be criticized for being sexist. So I will just say this... Dean Winchester is a slut. He sleeps around too much, has too little respect for the women that he sleeps with, and he's getting a little old for that act. They started to have him grow up around season 6, but then they stepped back and he returned to his old ways. I didn't like that decision.
Sara Lance makes Dean Winchester look like a saint. The woman can't be in the same room with another female without jumping her bones. And I get it. They want to make her Indiana Jones, and Han Solo, and all of those other Harrison Ford characters who fight bad guys and sleep with all the girls, but they took it too far. Sara used to be an interesting character (and kind of a serial monogamist, if you ask me, since it was always Oliver or Nyssa). Now she has the same problem as Kara, where they're forgetting how to make her an actual character. Her bedding all of these women throughout history is a joke, but that's all she is anymore.
When evil Lance asked her why she would side with the people that she did, she replied by saying "Because I like men, and I like women"... and that answer made no sense in that context. It's like someone asking her if she wants butter on her popcorn and her response being "I'm bisexual". She allied herself with those people because they're the good guys!
And the response she gave robbed the scene of all of the drama that could have come from her father's double threatening to kill her. (and this reminded me once again that she should be facing Laurel this year, not Dinah)

Sara and Alex actually worked together in the scenes where they weren't doing the awkward sex stuff. Why did they even have to go there? The audience would have been shipping them much harder if they didn't start off by having them in bed together!


Felicity... I remember why I hate her now. She literally interrupted someone else's wedding, so that she could get married herself!?!?! Because it couldn't wait five f___ing seconds?! The Oliver/Felicity stuff in this crossover felt really awkward and forced, like the writers needed some relationship drama, but didn't have any good ideas. I hate this pairing so much, because Felicity is so often a b___h to Oliver, and he just stands there and takes it. If the genders were reversed, would anyone be cheering for this couple? At some point, it's just a form of emotional abuse. Oliver can do better. Hell, he HAS done better, and two of his ex girlfriends, and his ex wife, are assassins!


I'm sure there's more to discuss (like why wasn't Ray at the wedding when he knew the couple more than Sara did?) but it's late. So I will just say... the politics. Maybe it's not as big a deal to the rest of you, but I'm just tired of it. In an episode where literal Nazis with the genocide and the camps, and the doomsday weapons are attacking the plant, the writers feel a need to put in Trump references. It's offensive on so many levels, not the least of which is the fact that they are reducing the severity of what the Nazis did to an insult along the lines of "poopy head". I'm tired of not being able to enjoy a stupid comic book series without having them take jabs like this, which are meant as a jab toward at least half of their audience.

Does any sane, rational, mature human being actually believe that Donald Trump is a literal Nazi? Of course not. He is a lot of things that pretty much all of us would agree on, but a Nazi is not one of them. And yet, this trend of calling anyone you disagree with a Nazi continues, along with the "punch a Nazi" (also referenced in the crossover) line, which has resulted in people who are not remotely Nazis actually being assaulted in the real world. I don't find that funny.

And before everyone says that I'm overreacting to these innocent little jabs, I'd like to remind you that these shows have established other presidents for both Earth 1 and whatever Earth Kara comes from. The Trump references have no place on these shows, and having them in there isn't just petty, it's unprofessional.


Overall, the crossover was fun, but shallow. The writing could have used a few more passes with the red pen, but that doesn't seem to happen much with these shows, and a lot of really basic mistakes are made because of it. The plot didn't always make sense (as mentioned by someone else, they never explained why they attacked Earth 1 if they had been targeting Kara all this time). The dialogue was unpolished, to the point where some conversations made no sense, as writers tried to force their way into a punchline. I agree that it was better than last year, but I'm not sure that these crossovers are worth the effort. They are sloppy and rushed, and pretty much always feel like something that exists outside of the real Arrowverse anyway. These episodes will have a lasting impact, with weddings and deaths, but I don't see how they will be anything but awkward, both when we get back to the normal shows, and when/if we rewatch these on DVD. How do they even handle these episodes on DVD? I haven't checked to see about that.

I'm being super negative, I know. The episodes were fun to watch.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I just want to reiterate in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost that Informant's political views in no way represent the views of the rest of the Sliders.tv community which is home to many sane, sensible people who are on the opposite end of Informant's opinions and to declare those who disagree with him are mentally ill to do so will not be tolerated in this forum.

I am also going to remind Informant that I opened a thread specifically for his political commentary and it isn't this one and that while he is free to state his views, he is not free to police anybody else's. Any further political commentary whether it relates to TV or the real world will go in the political thread even if I have to personally move it there post by post.

I have put this message board back together more times than God has reconstructed Castiel and I didn't do it for posters to have a place to call those with dissenting opinions insane and in the middle of discussing Reverse Flash and time travel. If that's what you want to do, take it to Reddit.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Informant wrote:

How do they even handle these episodes on DVD? I haven't checked to see about that.

The first crossover with Vandal Savage was surprisingly done right - the Flash episode was included in the Arrow set and vice versa.  If you only bought Flash season 2 on DVD, you still got the full story; you didn’t even have to swap discs as they were already there in order.

For the Invasion crossover, it was initially advertised that the entire crossover would be in the Flash season three set, but that turned out to not be true.   If you want to see every part of Invasion on DVD, then you have to buy all four DVD sets and swap out the discs for each part.  I think it does tell you which part you have on your set, but it doesn’t tell you on what sets to find the other parts.  I guess they think that’s what Google is for.

So I expect Crisis on Earth X to get the Invasion treatment on DVD.  Maybe they’ll surprise me and do it right like they did the Vandal Savage crossover.

As for the insertion of social and political issues into these shows, I regret that people in film have lost their subtlety.  It’s similar to what almost happened with Back to the Future. If the film makers had an unlimited budget and no restrictions, the time machine was going to be a refrigerator and Marty would have gotten back to the future by riding inside of it at the heart of an atom bomb test in the desert.  When it was decided that would cost too much money to be done “right”, they went back to the drawing board and came up with a Delorean that could be powered by a lightning bolt.  An iconic idea was created because of limitations - because of restraint.  With CGI today, we would have gotten the refrigerator.

In our say anything, do anything world today; it seems there’s no reason to put more thought into ideas.  But messages can be delivered by more than just a hammer; and everyone’s product would be better if they placed limits on themselves (even using a simple question like “how do I get someone who hates these ideas to buy them?”).  If the productions thought that way, maybe we could get something like Classic Trek’s “Let That Be Your Last Battlefield” which I still hold to be one of the best spotlights on racism that has ever been put out there (honestly - who even noticed or cared which side of their face was colored until it was pointed out?  For most who saw it - especially kids - it was eye opening to the issue).

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

TemporalFlux wrote:

As for the insertion of social and political issues into these shows, I regret that people in film have lost their subtlety.  It’s similar to what almost happened with Back to the Future. If the film makers had an unlimited budget and no restrictions, the time machine was going to be a refrigerator and Marty would have gotten back to the future by riding inside of it at the heart of an atom bomb test in the desert.  When it was decided that would cost too much money to be done “right”, they went back to the drawing board and came up with a Delorean that could be powered by a lightning bolt.  An iconic idea was created because of limitations - because of restraint.  With CGI today, we would have gotten the refrigerator.

In our say anything, do anything world today; it seems there’s no reason to put more thought into ideas.  But messages can be delivered by more than just a hammer; and everyone’s product would be better if they placed limits on themselves (even using a simple question like “how do I get someone who hates these ideas to buy them?”).  If the productions thought that way, maybe we could get something like Classic Trek’s “Let That Be Your Last Battlefield” which I still hold to be one of the best spotlights on racism that has ever been put out there (honestly - who even noticed or cared which side of their face was colored until it was pointed out?  For most who saw it - especially kids - it was eye opening to the issue).

Look at that! A thoughtful opinion without in any way intimating that those who might have different tastes and views are wrong! Without any effort to intimidate those who disagree into silence! And a thoughtful sense of contemplation that leaves us thinking even if we don't agree.

760 (edited by Informant 2017-12-03 09:37:04)

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Sorry, but I was talking directly about these episodes and these writers, not political beliefs. The belief that Donald Trump is literally a Nazi is not a political belief, because it is a belief that requires a lack of understanding politics. Saying that Donald Trump is not a Nazi is not a political belief, it is a fact. Donald Trump is not a Nazi. Barack Obama is not a Nazi. Hillary Clinton is not a Nazi. Bernie Sanders is not a Nazi... I believe all of these people to be many other things, but to say that they are Nazis is blatantly wrong. If someone out there would like to explain to me how I'm wrong about that, or how it is intimidating for me to state the obvious, feel free.
If these shows are going to continuously voice their views on the subject, I can't be blamed for discussing them. If you're not comfortable with that in a discussion about silly comic book shows, welcome to my world. You didn't have a problem when the actual writers of the show did it, probably because you thought it was funny.

I wasn't commenting on their politics. I was commenting on their maturity and professionalism.


And on another note, how come nobody thought of using evil Oliver's dead body to get normal Oliver cleared of those charges that he is facing? Showing that there are two identical Oliver's running around would make the "beyond a reasonable doubt" thing pretty hard. Though I kinda think they might go ahead and send Oliver to prison next year.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I don't manage the Arrowverse. I do manage this board. And on this board, disagreeing with Informant does not make one insane, irrational or immature and any remarks or language that intimidate dissent into silence are unacceptable regardless of whether intentional or not. No one should have to fear being attacked or mocked for not sharing another poster's worldview.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Such as Alex's  "punch a Nazi" comment, which has led to people being physically assaulted in the real world, despite the fact that they have nothing to do with Nazis? I agree. I find it disappointing that you're willing to take a bold stance against my condemnation of that call to violence, but you're silent on the call itself.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Informant wrote:

Such as Alex's  "punch a Nazi" comment, which has led to people being physically assaulted in the real world, despite the fact that they have nothing to do with Nazis? I agree. I find it disappointing that you're willing to take a bold stance against my condemnation of that call to violence, but you're silent on the call itself.

Please accept my gratitude and appreciation for your civility and see the political thread for my response.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

TemporalFlux wrote:

The first crossover with Vandal Savage was surprisingly done right - the Flash episode was included in the Arrow set and vice versa.  If you only bought Flash season 2 on DVD, you still got the full story; you didn’t even have to swap discs as they were already there in order.

For the Invasion crossover, it was initially advertised that the entire crossover would be in the Flash season three set, but that turned out to not be true.   If you want to see every part of Invasion on DVD, then you have to buy all four DVD sets and swap out the discs for each part.  I think it does tell you which part you have on your set, but it doesn’t tell you on what sets to find the other parts.  I guess they think that’s what Google is for.

So I expect Crisis on Earth X to get the Invasion treatment on DVD.  Maybe they’ll surprise me and do it right like they did the Vandal Savage crossover.


This would annoy me, if I were buying the DVDs. Some people today don't even watch the shows as they air (some don't even have the option), so now those people will have to deal with the fact that major series-altering events took place on completely different shows. Barry and Iris, and Oliver and Felicity got married on Legends. That's going to be a mess when it comes to syndication, DVD sales, as well as streaming. Even if they keep these episodes out of the normal DVD sets and just release Crisis on Earth-X as its own thing, it will mess with casual viewers, and people who only watch one or two of the show.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

It'd be hard to keep the episodes out of the sets since so many crucial things happened.

I don't know why they can't just release all episodes on all the sets.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Because then you wouldn't have to buy all of the sets.


This is why it became impossible for me to keep up with comic books.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Yeah but my response would be to buy *none* of the sets hahah.

The shared universe is cool if you're up-to-date but it's gotta be a nightmare if you're not caught up.  And probably not worth the time.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I actually think Legends answered the whole "why kill off Stein when he could be happy?" question pretty well in the fall finale.  Yeah, death sucks and Stein didn't want to die, but he lived a full life and was ready to accept that it was his time to go.

Since Jax is leaving the show too, seemingly, it might've been better (read: more tragic) to have Jax be the one who dies (hopefully, more heroically), allowing Stein a bittersweet homecoming.  Maybe Stein leaves the Waverider, Jax tries to be a hero on his own, and he dies.  So Stein will always have to wonder whether or not he made the selfish move or not.

Either way, I feel a little better about the decision.  And I started wondering....is Legends actually handling character growth the best of the four series?

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I'm not sure I would really compare LEGENDS' characterization to the other shows except to say that Dr. Stein's post-mortem was indeed well written and a nice coda to Victor Garber's exit from the series. While I was fine with Stein's exit, I'm glad that the subsequent episode gave Slider_Quinn21 everything I tried to share.

"I may have a life ahead of me but to you, I'm a ghost. I'm not going to cheat death, Jefferson. None of us live forever. And yet, I clearly live a wonderful life with many chapters and if I had one wish, it wouldn't be for me to prolong my life. It would be for you to live yours. To have all the happiness you deserve."

It reminded me, actually, of Wally West's self-sacrifice in DC REBIRTH #1. In the 2011 reboot, DC made all its characters 10 years younger and removed most of the later-generation heroes like Barry Allen's redheaded nephew, Kid-Flash/Wally West with no mention of what had happened to him and no one ever referring to him. REBIRTH shows Wally unstuck in time, observing the New 52 universe and realizing that 10 years have been ripped out of reality along with relationships and friendships, causing the heroes to become isolated, corrupted and alone. Batman and Superman aren't friends; Green Arrow and Black Canary don't know each other and feel a strange sense of loss they can't explain and Wally West was erased from everyone's memories.

The unstuck Wally attempts to re-tether to reality by seeking out past friends -- Batman, Nightwing, Cyborg, the Justice Society -- but nobody, not even Wally's wife, Linda, remember him. Wally, decaying and about to dissipate into the Speed Force and lose all memory and identity, sees the *other* Wally West -- an African-American cousin who, like Wally, was named after their great-grandfather Wallace. Wally sees his cousin exhibit superspeed and realizes there will be a new Kid Flash. Wally then sees Barry rescuing schoolchildren from a fire, bringing them all pizza and realizes that even without Wally, the legacy of the Flash will continue.

And Wally, now barely a ghost, manifests to Barry. Barry doesn't recognize him. Wally tells Barry, "You don't know who I am and you won't remember -- so this is hello and good-bye." An uncomprehending Barry protests, "Who are you?" But Wally, fading into the Speed Force, has little time left and can't explain. Instead, he warns Barry that a mysterious being has attacked reality and removed love, legacy and family from the DC Universe.

And as the Speed Force is about to take him, Wally cries out, "Thank you for an amazing life. Thank you for your kindness. For your inspiration. For being there for me so many times. For now. The last time. That's why I won't die in anguish. Every second was a gift." Wally's final act is to express his love to his uncle who doesn't even know him.

And I think that's what a superhero is supposed to do; a superhero should face all the hardships and inevitabilities we all face, but they should represent our most graceful, responsible, aspirational, compassionate selves and we should all seek to face death with the same spirit that Dr. Stein and Wally faced theirs. Death scenes often define superheroes for me...

Although, in Wally's case, he actually survived.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

ireactions wrote:

I'm not sure I would really compare LEGENDS' characterization to the other shows except to say that Dr. Stein's post-mortem was indeed well written and a nice coda to Victor Garber's exit from the series. While I was fine with Stein's exit, I'm glad that the subsequent episode gave Slider_Quinn21 everything I tried to share.

You were convincing, but it's the show's responsibility to sell it.  You were more eloquent, but they did a good job.

And the only reason I say that Legends is better at characterization is that...there's forward momentum.  Arrow is probably the real answer (as they've evolved the "team" to a point where they had a whole stretch of episodes, not devoid of action, where Oliver didn't even fight).

But whereas Flash moved to a place where they've given powers to a Cisco and Caitlin and added versions of Wells, that show is still mainly Cisco/Caitlin/Wells assisting Barry as the Flash.  I'm not even sure Barry, honestly, has really grown as a character.  They added Wally with no impact.  They added a romance subplot and let everyone in on the secret, but the show really hasn't grown.

(Of all the shows, I think Flash could benefit from sending a character or two to another show.  Their team needs a shakeup)

Supergirl, while fun and adding new elements all the time, also is pretty status quo-ey (which, I know, isn't a word).

Legends, on the other hand, at least tries certain stuff.  It delves into the Legends' childhood to explain why Mick is such an asshole or why Ray is so upbeat and positive.  It's used Damian Darhk too much, but it's a character that the star of the show (Sara) has a deep, emotional connection to.  Even bringing Earth X Snart to deal with Mick was better character building than we've got out of Caitlin (especially on a night where they tried to do a Caitlin character episode).

Legends is probably the worst show of the four, but the Firestorm exit was about as good as anything that the Arrowverse has done.  Of course, with so few actual deaths across any of the shows, I guess it's not that hard.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

http://www.superherohype.com/news/40913 … e#/slide/1

This is a weird strategy.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Slider_Quinn21 wrote:

http://www.superherohype.com/news/40913 … e#/slide/1

This is a weird strategy.

Reminds me of the old “wheel format” where four different shows were shown on a rotating basis.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_NBC_Mystery_Movie

This was actually the plan for Sliders season four if it stayed on Fox.  They were going to produce fewer episodes and place it in a wheel with The Visitor, a time travel type show that wasn’t picked up and one of Fox’s reality shows like “When (blank) Attacks!”.  Under that plan, Sliders would have aired only one time every four weeks with no reruns.

I almost wonder if this is a kind of test run for CW.  Imagine one or two slots per week dedicated to DC programming, and it rotates.  One week it’s Arrow; next week it’s Flash.  And if they crossover more, it’s really like one big DC anthology show broadcast 52 weeks a year.  Doing it in that staggered schedule would make production breaks overlap another show’s filming and that could make crossover production easier as an actor could pop in for a week during their months off.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Spoilers for the Arrow midseason finale...



First, I'd like to say that the writers haven't learned their lesson when it comes to Felicity or Olicity. It wasn't too bad this year when she was just one member of the team, but pushing the relationship has really made her annoying again. She was designed to be a supporting character, not the female lead.

Second... Thea just woke up from a six (plus) month coma, and she just hops out of bed and gets back to normal life? Why do shows insist on doing these massive medical arcs if they refuse to follow up on them? Thea was long past the point where anyone would expect her to wake up, especially without any permanent neurological issues. But it's a comic book show, so fine. But zero rehab? Zero recovery time? This isn't as bad as Oliver being stabbed and thrown off a cliff, only to walk it off. Or Felicity being incurably paralyzed for a couple of episodes. However, it is still frustrating.


I feel like the team splitting up is an act, put on for the cameras in the Arrowcave. Maybe I'm wrong, but I didn't feel any sense of doom or kiss from this.

Also, I still don't get why they didn't use the evil Oliver corpse to get Oliver's charges dropped. If they can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that someone with his face, his DNA, and his fingerprints is out there doing bad things, they really can't prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that it was our Oliver who they've been tracking this whole time.


And one last question... Does it really follow Vigilante's MO to join a supervillain club?

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

TemporalFlux wrote:

I almost wonder if this is a kind of test run for CW.  Imagine one or two slots per week dedicated to DC programming, and it rotates.  One week it’s Arrow; next week it’s Flash.  And if they crossover more, it’s really like one big DC anthology show broadcast 52 weeks a year.  Doing it in that staggered schedule would make production breaks overlap another show’s filming and that could make crossover production easier as an actor could pop in for a week during their months off.

Now that'd be interesting.

I do think that something like this should be an option for streaming services.  Where if you decided to binge watch "The Arrowverse", you'd get Arrow at first....then you'd start getting some Flash.  Then you'd get Legends and Supergirl until you're eventually watching every episode by air date.  You'd watch it all the way we all did....as it happened.  I'm sure you'd have to work out some sort of system where cliffhanger episodes are arranged next to each other (because, otherwise, people would do it anyway).  So when Zoom nearly kills Barry, you don't have to check in with the Legends before you find out what happens.

*****

Regarding Arrow.

I think the Olicity stuff needs to just be let go.  Maybe she wasn't designed as the female lead, but she's there.  It's over.  She and Oliver are married, and that's it.  I'm much happier for it to just be over, with no more "will they, won't they?"  They did.  Now let's move on.

I think the beginning was a lot, but since the wedding technically took place on an episode of Legends of Tomorrow, I think they wanted to have an appropriate "wedding" on the show itself.  And while I think a lot of fans treat her like Seven of Nine, Felicity was actually there from the beginning so it's not like she showed up and kicked someone off the show - she "battled" Laurel for the spot, and she "won"

With Laurel back and a complete badass, I think that's what they're giving the Olicity haters.  Although, while there was a *very little* movement on the "can evil Laurel be saved* front, that story is moving at a glacial speed.

***

Regarding Vigilante, I wonder if he's some sort of mole.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

My problem isn't so much the fact that Olicity is happening. It's more that Felicity is horrible in large doses, and is better as a side character. I think this is both about how the character is written, and the way she is played. I'm over Laurel, but when I look at Oliver and Felicity, I genuinely don't get why he is with her. What is he getting out of that relationship? It's like Felicity got her fantasy through a meta power, and Oliver is under some kind of spell. She treats him horribly. She treats everyone horribly.

His other relationships on the show were far more compelling. Even when they weren't good relationships, he didn't seem like a passive element

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Question about The Flash:

Maybe I've been in Texas too long, but the cliffhanger didn't strike me as that dire. The man who Barry claimed was a murderous criminal turned around and accused Barry of stalking him and got a restraining order (if I remember correctly).

So I assume that a crime was reported at Barry's apartment. He has a security alert on his phone telling him that someone was there. And Devoe turns up dead on Barry's floor.

How does this look like Barry is in the wrong? If a guy enters my house without permission, I can kill the crap out of him and I'd probably get a high five from the cops that showed up.

I assume that Devoe's wife made some sort of panicked phone call or whatever, but that wasn't shown. Was Barry being framed for kidnapping and murder, or just killing the guy who was in his home uninvited? Not everyone who is found standing over a dead body is going to be treated like a murderer.

I feel like the show wanted us to base our reaction off of what we've seen on other shows/movies and not what we were shown here.


I did enjoy Iris making a passive aggressive comment about Felicity and Oliver highjacking their wedding.