Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Well, the greatest and worst things about these crossovers is that they can help each other.  Realistically, these guys can help each other out almost any time.  Even during massive crises on their individual shows, they still have scenes at bars or coffee shops or apartment lofts.  They have down time.  And if it meant saving all of Earth 1, then all hands could theoretically be on deck unless Kara is in a coma or Oliver is on trial. 

But even then, it'd feel like a more cohesive universe if Team Flash went through all their options.  "Did you call Kara?" "Yeah, she's dealing with something they're calling "World Killers" so her hands are full.  "What about the Waverider?" "Can't reach them."  Then, at least, we'd know they considered it. 

We can assume that they did, but it was offscreen.  What sucks is that lines like the above don't require anything extra (no guest stars or coordination) - the writers just need to remember.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

On Arrow...

Diaz is, in theory, a great villain.  He has control of the city, essentially turning Team Arrow into fugitives without having to frame them for anything.  The problem is....I don't buy it.

Putting pressure on a few guys at the top...that makes sense.  But Diaz seems to have put pressure on everyone in the city, and I don't get that.  And the show isn't being particularly clear on what, exactly, is going on.

There's a couple of things that they seem to be saying.  The whole flash drive thing was because it had everyone on Diaz's payroll - but is he paying everyone off?  And wouldn't that be insanely expensive?  Is Diaz rich enough, even with the Quadrant's resources, to pay off every person in the government?  And if he is, is that even the best way to use those resources?  Seems like it's way too much to be spending, even for the level of control he has?

Or is he paying off certain people and leveraging everyone else?  Or is he counting on paying off / leveraging top people, and simply hoping that everyone else falls in line?  Because I don't buy that.  Is the entire SCPD borderline evil?  Because some of the stuff that Diaz is ordering street-level cops to do is beyond "following orders" - even if you compare it to stuff in Gotham, they're essentially saying that Jim Gordon would work as muscle....since there are dozens of cops who seem fine with "I want Oliver Queen dead" with no questions asked.

What I think, maybe, should've happened instead of the Green Arrow trial getting Oliver impeached....is some sort of huge disaster where a ton of SCPD officers were either killed or seriously injured - where the city has to impeach Oliver because of the fallout and the city has to "hire" a private security firm to act as the police - and those would all be Diaz men.  Because this season technically has to end with literally every government officer in prison because they're all openly committing crimes for a crime lord.

I'm enjoying the season, and I think Diaz is a great villain for Oliver to face.  But every time I think about it, the crazier it seems.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I agree with most of what you said. Diaz should have been seen less this year, while his influence slowly built and became more obvious.

I've just gotten so tired of yelling "kill him" at my tv, while numerous characters just shrug and walk away. The end result is, he looks like a weak villain who isn't stopped because the heroes are weaker.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Exactly.  Even if he was on the show but in the shadows *at SCPD*, then they could at least follow the "following orders" excuse for most of the policemen.  Right now, the policemen are openly following orders from some random plainclothesed guy.  How are any of these officers going to explain any of their actions?

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Looks like the Berlanti Titans series is getting something to crossover with - Doom Patrol:

http://ew.com/tv/2018/05/14/doom-patrol-dc/

The classic Doom Patrol Line-up with the addition of Crazy Jane (who is basically the X-men character Legion - each of her multiple personalities has a different power).  Of course, I guess it balances out in the end given that X-men was kind of a rip off of Doom Patrol (with the Patrol debuting in June 1963 and X-men in September 1963).

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Next season:

Supergirl is moving to Sundays at 8pm Eastern
Legends and Arrow will be paired on Mondays (8pm Eastern and 9pm Eastern, respectively)
Flash and Black Lightning are paired on Tuesdays (8pm Eastern and 9pm Eastern, respectively)

Has anyone seen Black Lightning?  How does it tie in with the Arrowverse?  Does it at all?

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I watched the first episode of Black Lightning, but it didn't impress me. I may revisit it over the summer, but I haven't decided yet. From what I saw, they left wiggle room that could allow the show to fit into tye Arrowverse if they wanted, but I didn't see any solid link.


Also in the news, this year's crossover will feature Gotham City and Batwoman. And everyone is already expecting her to hook up with Sara, because Sara is just a joke of a character at this point.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Slider_Quinn21 wrote:

Has anyone seen Black Lightning?  How does it tie in with the Arrowverse?  Does it at all?

From the little I’ve seen, it’s kind of vague.  They are name dropping heroes like Vixen, but the way they talk it could be a reference to a person or a reference to a story they read (like a comic book).  Not sure how likely a true crossover is, though.  Black Lightning films in Atlanta with everyone else in Vancouver.  Same problem with Titans and Doom Patrol as they film in Toronto.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Yeah I saw that.  They're also selling it as "introducing Gotham to the Arrowverse."

So this season on Arrow, they name-dropped Bruce Wayne.  He was indirectly referenced by Rip Hunter and a few other places.  If the Arrowverse was able to  fully introduce Batman, what would be the way to do it at this point?  A multi-episode storyline on one of the shows (sorta like how they introduced Atom or Elongated Man)?  A multi-episode storyline on one show?  Or only during a massive crossover?

He's such a big character that I'm sorta worried about him overshadowing the whole universe if not done right.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Thinking in terms of Supergirl, Batman could make an appearance without stealing the show. I think the easiest way to do this would be to use Batman’s anti-social aspect - it’s not that the CW is trying to keep Batman in the background but instead that Batman *wants* to be in the background.

I think the bigger thing here is the potential access to more prominent Batman villains. With Supergirl fighting Metallo, could Arrow face off with Clayface?  Using the Supergirl model, Joker would likely be off the table like Lex seemingly is; but what about Penguin?  Bane?  Scarecrow?  There’s a lot of options.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

With Gotham going off the air, it could make sense to use Batman villains.

I like that Batman exists but doesn't appear because he doesn't want to.  Arrow makes the most sense to add (I still wish they'd been able to use Nightwing), but I'm sure all the shows would want to use him.  Using him in a crossover and then a run on Arrow makes the most sense to me.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

It’s also worth noting that one of Batwoman’s most notable storylines in modern comics concerns the Crime Bible:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_Bible

What’s notable there is its connection to Bruno Mannheim, Apokolips and Darkseid.

The Question also has a history with Batwoman; well, the Renee Montoya Question.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I was hoping that Batman would be an Earth-2 character. It just feels like a good fit to me. But I guess that probably won't happen. Since they are using Batwoman, I assume they will come from Kara's world, because of its toxic femininity. (That was a joke. Relax)

I doubt Batman will happen, and I'm okay with that. They cast Superman way too young, and they'd probably do the same with Batman. Arrow already swims in Batman-inspired waters pretty often, so it'd probably be weird to have Batman appear anyway. Same with Oracle.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Oh, BTW, Supergirl (even for just a few minutes), completely stops Thinker's plan.  It might even lead to an interesting plot, where Earth 1 is freaked out by the mysterious super-powered being that destroyed all Earth's satellites smile

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Arrow finale:

What they hell were they thinking? This episode was like a how-to guide for horrible plotting. I don't even know where to begin.


I guess I'll start with Diaz. They spent the entire season spinning their wheels with this guy. They had a hundred different chances to kill him off and be done with him, but they didn't, just because it wasn't the end of the season yet. He's not particularly intimidating or capable. He's not a mastermind. He's just a guy who people refuse to put down. So we finally get to the finale, and what happens? Oliver refuses to put him down! He literally stands there like an idiot, doing nothing while Diaz goes on about how he's not going to be stopped. The one time Oliver does shoot him, he doesn't even deliver a fatal wound! And then Black Siren throws him into a frigging river?! I sat through this entire mess of a season to get to THIS?!?!

In the shuffle, Quentin is wounded. We all knew that it was coming, because it was announced weeks ago that Paul Blackthorne was leaving. I read that it was the producers who decided to off the character, so you'd expect them to have a hell of a reason for it. You'd expect it to be super powerful. Except, it wasn't. They managed to get this mortally wounded man to the hospital, only to have him sit around for a few hours, waiting to have the super urgent emergency surgery that will save his life. Except it doesn't, because SHOCKER, you should probably have emergency surgery right away. The death was useless, and resulted in another hospital bed goodbye, like Laurel's, which gives the writers a chance to write a bunch of speeches, but ultimately drags out the moment that we all know is coming, to the point where the actual death has no emotional punch. Quentin should have died back in the villain lair, resulting in Black Siren going all out to help the good guys.

Sara was brought back. Why? I have no idea. She didn't even share a scene with Quentin! And since Legends will be back in the fall instead of midseason, it wasn't even a setup for Sara to take over for Oliver (which would have been awesome. I still say that she belongs on Arrow, not Legends). He coming back meant nothing. She should have been the one facing off against evil Laurel all year, not Dinah. And when they do finally meet... nothing.

How the f**k does Felicity track down a pacemaker? This is as bad as the time she controlled construction equipment remotely, when none of it would have any sort of remote control functions.

Oliver going and making peace with all of the newbies was stupid. The show has refused to acknowledge the massive violations of trust and common decency by these people, and they act like it was all Oliver going crazy. Sadly, none of them died or left town, so we'll probably be stuck with them for another season.

Oliver went to prison. Is he going to see the "Barry Allen was here" thing on his cell wall? Because Barry Allen was in that plotline half a season ago. Hell, the prison even looks the same. And while I think that the storyline is probably better suited to Arrow (assuming that they can really dig into it), it's just stupid that so much of this season has been spent sharing plotlines between the two shows. It's absurd.


Not one element of the finale was fulfilling in any way. Not one thing felt earned. Not one thing felt natural. This episode should have been episode 10 of the season, not the finale. I can't believe we're still stuck with Diaz.


I'm glad that we will have a new showrunner next year, however, I'm not sure of the choice of new showrunners. Looking at her history, there's a lot of rom-com type stuff. That is not the energy that Arrow needs. I hope that the new showrunner can bring a tough, hard-hitting, toxically masculine vibe to this prison arc.


Crappy finale for a weak season.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

On the bright side, they specifically said that he'd be in Supermax.  So if they want/are able to swing that storyline that, let's be honest, will never be made as a movie.....they can.  Could be pretty cool.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

It could be cool. This would be a great time to really change things up and go in a completely different direction with the series.

But Oliver will be back to his normal life long before the crossover, and no massive cast changes have been announced, so... We'll see. My hopes aren't high.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Well I don't think it would necessarily need to involve major cast changes.  It could be Roy coming back to fill in for Oliver, with the rest of the team filling in as support for half the season.  And for the other half in Oliver's escape from Supermax, they could probably get away with the other villains being guest stars.

It could even work with the main plot being done in real time and the Oliver escape done in flashback (so that could take place in a matter of hours but the story takes place over the course of a couple months).

The crossover is going to be in December of next year - so it's reasonable that he'd be free by midseason.  If not, it'd also be reasonable for the government to let him out under certain circumstances (a Suicide Squad type of deal).

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Okay, they just had no idea how to resolve this Thinker story, did they? The finale was a mish-mash of ideas that never amounted to a plot. Then we had the team hug Marlize and send her on her way, and it wasn't even a clever prank where she goes outside and is immediately surrounded by police and taken to jail. They actually let her go!

The scenes with Wally were better than what we got of Sara on Arrow, but I felt like his conversation with Joe was the continuation of a conversation that I never saw the first half of. Did Joe see him off when he joined the Legends?

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Flash finale was okay but not great.  I wish that Harrison Wells could get away from the “being stupid” thing, but looks like we’re stuck with it.

The only interesting thing was Nora’s comment when she first walked in the house - “This house is bitchin’!”  Back at the start of the season, Cisco thought he had cracked the code of the symbols Barry was writing after he got back from the speed force, but Cisco gave up on it when the translation was “this house is bitchin”.  So we’ve got a connection now; Barry was trying to tell them about the future.

Harry was writing more of those symbols on the board during the blackout.  What was Harry trying to tell them?

I’m also curious - did Ralph keep all those extra powers?  They were in his body after all.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Yeah, the part with the speed force writing and Nora was interesting. I hope they have a solid plan for that.

As for Ralph... I'm just upset that he came back. He is super annoying. I imagine that he only has his powers now, if they keep him around at all. If he is on the show with all of those powers, he will outshine Barry, and that can't happen.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I finally watched the Flash finale last night.

I really don't know what to think.  I think the Thinker was a really good idea for a villain because he can frustrate Team Flash in ways that no other villain had up until that point.  Barry thinks of himself as a genius, and so do Cisco and Harry and Caitlin and....everyone but Joe maybe?  And to have a villain come in and kick their butts at something they all think they do well was interesting.

What also was promising is a villain who has goals that are understandable.  Previous villains want "more speed" for....reasons.  I never really understood the goal, and the main fights ended up being races that didn't seem to make any sense.

Instead, I think they made two fatal mistakes.  One, they didn't think that a guy in a wheelchair vs. a team of superheroes was compelling enough so the second half of the season turned DeVoe into Sylar.  They made him way too powerful physically when his mind should have been his primary weapon.

Second....his plan was too convoluted and didn't make enough sense.  This was their best chance to have a villain with a clear motive, and they botched it.  As long as Arrow and Flash were copying each other, they could've gone for the "Hero has to go solo" idea and had Thinker mind control each member of Team Flash one by one.  So, by the finale, it's Team Flash vs. Flash.

I actually liked Ralph, and I'm glad he wasn't dead.  I actually hadn't considered that Ralph's brain would still be alive in there, and that he still had his original body.  I do feel that it's a bit of a copout because I think Ralph's death was supposed to have real weight, and Team Flash still hasn't really had a true loss at any point now.

And the way Thinker lost....I can't believe that DeVoe had a perfect plan with perfect contingencies, even if they'd brought in Kara (which they mentioned but still would've been nice to see them try....especially since Supergirl went on hiatus and it might've been possible for a small cameo)....and we're led to believe that his plan went perfectly until Marlize just...unplugged him?  Either he sees every option and has a plan for it, or he doesn't.  You can't give him perfect precognition and then just take it away.  If Marlize was a blind spot, that's fine.  But I don't think they really built that in well enough if that's even what happened.

I just think it was sloppy.  Which sucks because I think, overall, the season was better than it's been the last couple years.

873 (edited by Slider_Quinn21 2018-05-25 08:02:38)

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

TemporalFlux wrote:

The strangely excited girl who was trying to give Barry a drink before the wedding.  Is that going to be Barry’s time traveling grand daughter Jenni Ognats (otherwise known as XS of the 30th century Legion of Super-heroes)?

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/theflash/images/6/67/XS.png/revision/latest?cb=20091109031025

Once again, TF was way ahead of the curve.  Not exactly right but close enough.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Slider_Quinn21 wrote:
TemporalFlux wrote:

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/theflash/images/6/67/XS.png/revision/latest?cb=20091109031025

Once again, TF was way ahead of the curve.  Not exactly right but close enough.

They threw a curve on this one because Nora is a brand new character that’s never appeared anywhere.  In the comics, Barry and Iris had a boy and a girl set of twins, Don and Dawn.  Once their speed powers developed, they were called the Tornado Twins.  Dawn would end up having a daughter (Jenni pictured above), and Don would have a son (Bart Allen).

The interesting thing about Don is his wife - he married Meloni Thawne.  Bart is a descendant of both Flash and Reverse Flash.  The CW show has made it complicated to play with that idea, but they may still find a way.

So why different?  The show has done this before by starting out different (such as the red chest insignia), but finding their way back to the original comics ideas in the end.  Maybe Nora is designed as a throw away.  We’ll get to know her and like her, and then she’ll have to be erased from history to make things right.  Later we meet Barry’s grand daughter Jenni who looks just like Nora (the genes are still there), and it’s a somewhat happy ending because a piece of Nora still lives on.