Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

ringringring ringringring ringring click

"Cisco, it's Overwatch! We need -- "

"Hi! You've reached STAR Labs! We're currently engaged in an extradimensional journey to a parallel world of unknown threat and danger from which we may never return! Please leave a message and we'll get back to you should any of us return from Earth 2 alive."

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

On Legends of Tomorrow (which, quick review, is good but has too many characters), Sara is dealing with the bloodlust.  But in the last episodes, they said that John Constantine cured Sara of the bloodlust, and that's why it's a harder situation for Thea. 

Seems like a weird contradiction in the same week of episodes.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

They said that John Constantine cured Sara from dying if she doesn't indulge the bloodlust, while Thea will die if she doesn't kill.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Malcolm said that Constantine restored the balance within Sara, implying that she wasn't dealing with the bloodlust the same way that Thea was.

I said it in the X-Files section, so I'll say it here. I think that the Arrow writers are bored with writing Arrow. I think that The Flash and Legends are probably more fun to write with all of the fantastical elements, so those are the fun toys to play with, and Arrow is just the job that they have to do. It just doesn't seem like they care anymore. Felicity's injury was handled horribly. It's like they flashed forward a year or something, skipping over the harsh rehab part of that sort of thing. They keep bringing back dead characters, because why not? They keep having things just randomly happening to connect... The Calculator just happens to force Roy to work with him, and then just happens to bring it all back to Felicity who just happens to be his daughter.

It's like they're writing all of the major plot elements on the board and then filling in all of the between spaces with "blah blah blah"

They had Oliver chase down a criminal without his costume! And even though it turned out to be Roy that he was chasing (just happened to be Roy, I should say), the magical contact lens camera should have still picked up Oliver's face. Which means that the Calculator should know that Oliver Queen is a crime fighter who happens to be tied to the super genius who he was in a hacker battle with, which just happened to be his own daughter. Baby Sara could have connected those dots!

There must be a hundred writer/producers who would love the chance to write Green Arrow stories for TV. They would think them through. They would put their best effort into them. So if the current staff is bored with the show, I wish they'd just hand it over to someone who would be happy to be there. Either that, or announce that next season is the last season (when the flashbacks run out) and just finish it.


As for Legends, I don't think the cast is too big at all. I think that the group dynamic has been working really well so far. There are so many combinations to play here. What happen if Mick and Kendra have a mission together? What happens when Sara and Ray are out there together? The list goes on! I mean, there are weak spots in the writing (why leave Carter's body behind? Why not take the knife during the ritual this week? If they had Savage incapacitated, why not bring him a billion years into the future and leave him drifting through space?) but the show is really fun to watch. You can tell that the people making it are happy to be there.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Interesting.  I guess I wasn't paying enough attention to the Malcolm line.

Regarding the writers, I think this is the problem with spinoffs.  You have a strong group of writers for one show, and you split them up to do two shows.  Both shows suffer because neither show has the strong writer's room the original show had.  Add a third group, and it gets even more diluted.  I don't think Arrow is as bad as you think it is, but it's definitely worse since they spun off Barry's show.

My problem with Legends is that the show isn't streamlined.  I get that these are a bunch of people with wildly different goals, but it's really odd to have three stories in one episode that aren't really connected.  Snart is out trying to fix his own past, Ray and Stein are connecting about their shared past while saving Kendra, and Rip is trying to take down Savage.  They're good stories....but they aren't a team.  There are too many characters in the reality of the show (Rip goes to kill Savage by himself at least once...what's the point of even bringing a team when half the team is off doing their own thing) and on the show (they have to find something for Jackson to do, for example, so he tags along on the Cold/Heat Wave story).

If it was me, I'd leave Heat Wave and Firestorm out.  Let Ray be the brains.  Let Sara be the muscle.  Cold is the wild card.  The hawks are the secret weapons.  The other characters are unnecessary if you ask me.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I enjoyed Season 3 of ARROW -- until Oliver died, and then it became very laboured, confused and tired. Oliver's resurrection was absurd and nonsensical and his return from death caused all kinds of problems. We're expected to take Thea's death seriously when Oliver's was irrelevant; we have Oliver vowing never to leave his city again only to leave it a few weeks later; we have a League of Assassins that wants to engage in a complex effort to unleash a biological weapon on an entire city in order to eliminate a single target (couldn't R'as have just bought a gun?) and Felicity's pedestal turned her into an object rather than a person.

I've enjoyed Season 4 much more and am less troubled by the faults, although they're present. I'm having a good time with Felicity. I got the impression the Calculator knows exactly who Overwatch is and who Oliver Queen is; why else did he just happen, as Informant puts it, to get himself involved in Team Arrow? So, that didn't bother me too much, nor does the uncertainty over who rests in The Grave (for reasons I posted above). That said -- Informant is right, especially about Felicity having skipped rehab. The reason that stuff doesn't trouble me: I don't really think of ARROW as a realistic drama. It's an impressionistic, exaggerated, larger than life escapist fantasy.

Seasons 1 - 2 of ARROW were just as absurd, from Oliver apparently building his base under the nightclub with one day of sledgehammering, Diggle pretending to be a smoker when he isn't one and wouldn't smell like one, Thea's addiction issues vanishing after a stern talk, the Black Canary being unmasked to reveal a complete and total stranger whom Oliver inexplicably recognizes as a Sara Lance who looks nothing like the Sara Lance of Season 1, Sara Lance charging into battle with that ludicrous push-up bra, the Huntress becoming Evil because she discovers Oliver has an ex-girlfriend he talks to now and then -- ultimately, I've learned to accept stuff like that and Felicity wheeling around in that chair like she was born in it because ARROW isn't a realistic show. It's a fantasy.

It's no sillier than Barry Allen apparently being the only police scientist in Central City with a lab that Barry and only Barry ever uses. Or Barry being dispatched to crime scenes despite his lengthy coma making it unlikely he would be permitted to work cases without an extensive psych evaluation to make sure his work would hold up in court. Or Star Labs being in operation with funds, vehicles and equipment after FEMA declared it a disaster zone. Or THE FLASH's inability to explain how the prisoners in the Pipeline prison go to the bathroom (Ray Palmer even asks how the prisoners "complete the transaction" only for Cisco to get distracted from answering the question).

As for the large LEGENDS cast -- I suspect it's simply being practical in that they need to have some characters they can kill.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Now that Flash is going to guest star on Supergirl, I started watching it.  Pretty good.  Although I hope Barry has to travel to a parallel Earth to get to her.  I don't think "Earth 1" meshes with the world on Supergirl.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I can understand that Arrow isn't supposed to exist in a realistic world. But the thing is, even when you create a world of your own, you have to create the reality of that world. There have to be rules and limitations. If Felicity's injury doesn't make her skip a beat, she might as well be rolling around in her desk chair without an injury at all. If Oliver can walk away from a sword through the chest and a drop off of a cliff, why doesn't he just close his eyes and teleport himself around town?
Arrow has violated its own reality so many times, and usually just because the writers want to take a shortcut through the story. None of it means anything anymore. Some things had to happen, like introducing meta-humans when they weren't supposed to exist on this show. I can understand that. But so much of it was completely unnecessary, and cheap.


As for Supergirl... never mind. I don't need to go there again. smile

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Oliver's "death" is still the most bizarre storyline I've ever seen on TV.  They killed off their main character and then sorta hoped everyone forgot about it.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I love SUPERGIRL. It's as flawed as THE FLASH, but it's earnest, heartfelt and it's clearly got a higher budget than THE FLASH and ARROW combined.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Really? It doesn't look as good as The Flash to me. And if I were in charge of the show, I would pretty much tear it down and start from scratch. It is a horrible Superman ripoff and they completely failed to make Kara her own character with a unique perspective and purpose. I want the show to be good, but everything is wrong with the show! Everything!


smile

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

It happened again! 

(SPOILERS for tonight's FLASH)

So Barry is gone, Earth-1 is undefended, and a metahuman shows up.  Immediately, the first thought was to use a formula to give Jay powers to fight him.  Which is fine.  But no thought was given to call Oliver and company.  Which is bizarre for a couple of reasons - first, you'd think Barry would've had someone in place to defend the city in his absence.  He's really worried about protecting Earth-2 Joe and Iris, but he leaves Earth-1 Joe and Iris undefended.  His first call should've been to Oliver.  Second, again, they're risking a life when it's unnecessary.  Geomancer was powerful, but he wasn't powerful enough that Oliver and company couldn't have taken him down (Joe basically does all by himself). 

Now I get why they didn't have Oliver and Team Arrow show up (although this could've been a great time to use Colton Haynes again to step in as Red Arrow to fill in for Barry).  They can't have a crossover every week.  But these are teams that have been shown to work together.  And, in both cases (the one from Arrow and this one), they don't even try.  It's the perfect chance to drop a crossover hint, do some cross-promotion, and explain why they aren't always popping up in each other's stories.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I think that they do mention each other often enough to make it clear that they're in each other's circle, and if they don't specifically mention them in each episode, it can be assumed that they've spoken. We haven't gotten Team Flash's reaction to Felicity being injured, for example. But I'm sure they've been in touch. And they're always introducing costume updates from Cisco on Arrow... at some point, it becomes repetitive and kinda wastes time to say "I tried to call Oliver, but he was dealing with problems of his own"

As for Roy... I don't know. On one level, I'd like to see him bouncing between shows as needed. On the other hand, he really can't. He's supposed to be dead, so if he shows up again, he is putting himself and Oliver in danger. They could change his costume, but it's still a risk.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Well, I don't want every episode to have a mention.  And you're right, they have plenty of throwaway lines to show that they're a united universe.  Heck, last night's episode had nods to every part of the DC TV multiverse, including the original Flash TV show and Supergirl (would've loved a Smallville reference, though). 

But instead of a throwaway line about Cisco or a joke about Barry, these were two situations where life was literally at stake because they didn't make the reference.  If Roy had died, Barry would've been *furious* that they didn't call him on something that would've been no problem for him.  If Velocity-7 had killed Jay and people had died, Oliver would've been *furious* that no one called him to help.  The more crossovers they do, the more they're forming a Justice League.  They've all met each other now, and there's no excuse to risk lives when they just need to make a phone call.

And the reason why I think it's a problem in these two situations instead of any other is the fact that they *couldn't* have mentioned it off-screen.  In the Arrow situation, we saw the whole conversation.  There was no time for Felicity to check, and there was no conversation on the team about calling Barry.  In the Flash one, we saw the whole conversation with Caitlin/Joe/Jay, and they didn't consider calling Oliver (caveat - those three characters have had the least interaction with Oliver and they might've legitimately not thought he'd say yes).  Now the part that could've happened off-screen is Barry checking to see if Oliver can watch the city, but two things contradict that.  If Oliver said no (and he would've had to have), Barry still leaves the city unprotected, and even if he did say no, Oliver would've checked in considering Geomancer said he'd been causing earthquakes for days.

Now, of course, they're real-life logistics, and I think these were two situations where they could've made in-world explanations.  Barry can't get to the warehouse to save the day in 4 minutes because villain of the week.  Oliver can't come or spare anyone from his team because they're working on Dahrk.  It's not an argument that they should have more mentions in-universe - just that they should save them for situations like these - where they're being irresponsible by not making the call.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Also to be fair, the two cities are 600 miles away from each other. It probably makes less sense for Team Flash to call Oliver than it would make for Team Arrow to call Barry. smile


You know what has always bugged me about The Flash and Superman?  They rarely point out that when Barry is running 600 miles, he still has to run those 600 miles the same way that any of us would. The world slows down around him, but he still has to take each step and run each mile. That is why I would much rather be able to fly than run at super speeds.
I remember one comic where (I think it was) Wally West was thrown off of a bridge, and to him the fall took forever. He was helpless in the situation, but time was still slow around him and all he could do was fall for what would have been like hours to him.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Informant wrote:

I remember one comic where (I think it was) Wally West was thrown off of a bridge, and to him the fall took forever. He was helpless in the situation, but time was still slow around him and all he could do was fall for what would have been like hours to him.

Reminds me of one of my favorite Flash stories from the Wally West years:

http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.co … ts-a-rule/

I liked most of the Messner-Loebs stuff; he had a good balance of wonder with a sense of humanity.  He also wrote my hands down favorite Flash story which presented the entire life of Barry Allen and how the events of his death led to him becoming the lightning bolt that gave him his powers in the first place.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Informant wrote:

Also to be fair, the two cities are 600 miles away from each other. It probably makes less sense for Team Flash to call Oliver than it would make for Team Arrow to call Barry. smile.

True, but they did some prep before going to Earth-2.  There would've been time for Oliver or Roy or Diggle or whoever to get on the jet/train and get to Central City in a few hours.  It's just so weird that, in both episodes, they chose the more-dangerous route without even considering the alternatives.

I think, in theory, I love the idea that superheroes let each other do their thing.  That Superman could solve all of Batman's crime in ten minutes, but he lets Batman do it.  And Barry is sorta doing the same thing with Oliver.  But I like that Oliver lets Barry struggle at things, and Barry lets Oliver struggle at things because it makes them better heroes in the end.  And for the most part, that's how I go about non-crossover episodes.  But both those examples really stood out to me.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Re: Supergirl.

I actually really like this show.  I'm surprised at how much heart is in it.  It definitely feels like the Flash to me, and that's a great thing.  And the introduction of some other DC characters really helps the show click.  Maxwell Lord is a good analogue for Lex Luthor, and "Henshaw" is a great character.

Two things bother me.  First, I hate the casting of "James Olsen" and it has nothing to do with racial-swapping.  If they wanted Jimmy Olsen to be black, that's fine with me.  My problem is that Jimmy Olsen apparently chose photography as soon as he was done with being a GQ model.  Changing Jimmy's race doesn't really affect the character - changing his personality does.  And the actor does a fine job, but he's playing the wrong part.  When Jimmy admits that he was always scared in Metropolis, I don't buy it.  He's a physically-imposing, in-shape, attractive guy.  There'd be virtually no reason for him to be the coward that he claims to be.  I can understand wanting to hire an attractive guy to be the male lead, but it'd make more since for Winn to be the tall, handsome one.  Or make it another character.  Changing his character like that seems wrong.

Second, I'm not sure I like the way they're using Superman.  I love that he's not on the show - that would be too much.  And I'm sorta glad they didn't go the "Birds of Prey" route, where Batman was just missing.  I like the use of instant messenger to make him a presence on the show without actually showing him.  I like that he's essentially giving Kara her space to be her own hero (I liked how it was handled in both episode 3 and episode 9, where Clark checks in but promises to stay out unless she asks).

But when there's an army of Kryptonians?  When Kara's lost her powers?  Aren't these situations where Clark should show up? 

If I sorta put those two things to the side, I really like it.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I was turned off to the GQ Jimmy until I saw that this is basically a battle-worn Jimmy.  He usually starts out as a "kid" in most tellings of the Superman mythos, but this is the guy that's been Superman's pal for years.  I can also buy the fear and think it's what makes the character.  Jimmy likely didn't start with that, but after years of facing life and death situations with monsters, it would wear on him.   He's got Post Traumatic Stress Disorder which cripples even the manliest of men who serve in our military.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Well, as I've said in many comic-based arguments, I don't know these characters all that well.  I don't read many comics, and most of my knowledge comes from sources like cartoons/movies/TV shows.  And when you look at the guys who have played Jimmy, and the ways he's been presented in other media, I never saw a muscle-bound male model guy.  Heck, when I think about photographers I know in life, there's a reason they're behind the camera and not in front of it smile  Mehcad Brooks looks like he would've spent his career as a TV anchorman.  He'd apply for jobs as a photographer, and they wouldn't let him.  Heck, I'm surprised that Cat is allowing him to be behind the camera.

I just think of Jimmy as being short (5'7) and nerdy.  It's like Andrew Garfield's Spider-Man.  It was hard for me to buy because he was presented as a fairly-popular, athletic, attractive, skateboarding guy before he got bit by the spider.  James' line in the show might say that he's spent years being scared, but I just don't see it.

Now I love the idea that he has super-PTSD.  And I do agree that even the manliest of men can have it.  But, first, I don't think we've seen enough of that (I just watched episode nine so maybe there's more).  But in episode nine, he goes toe-to-toe with Maxwell Lord - he's definitely not shying away from a fight or a dangerous situation.  Second, I think the character could've been *so* powerful if Jimmy/James came to National City literally broken.  And maybe the romance between Jimmy and Kara isn't based on "he's attractive and smart and brave and talented and amazing" and more like a Florence Nightingale situation.  Clark trusts Kara to take care of Jimmy, and she's helping rebuild his life because Clark legitimately thinks Jimmy will snap if he lives one more day in Metropolis.

And for that, I'd go with someone less physically imposing.  I was talking with my friend and I might've switched the casting on Mr. Terrific on Arrow and James on Supergirl.  And the more I think about it, I actually think Grant Gustin would've done an incredible job in that role (although he's also 6'2).

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Re: Flash

Any idea who the guy in the mask in the prison cell on Earth-2 was?  My first thought was Earth 2 Diggle (when we briefly saw him in the first Earth-2 episode) but now I have no idea.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Slider_Quinn21 wrote:

Re: Flash

Any idea who the guy in the mask in the prison cell on Earth-2 was?  My first thought was Earth 2 Diggle (when we briefly saw him in the first Earth-2 episode) but now I have no idea.

Well, the obvious answer is that it's Earth 2 Jay Garrick which means the Jay we've known is not the real one.  One subtle piece of evidence for the masked man's identity - the jail cells.   Jessie was in a cell with bars; it's all that was needed for her.  Barry was in a cell with some kind of glass; something to hinder speedsters.  Well, the masked man was also in a glass cell.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Supergirl--

I agree with your comment about the casting. Winn is more of a Jimmy than Jimmy is. Why not just switch them around?

(I am trying to put aside my frustration at the fact that all of the comic book redheads are the ones who are being race-swapped. Jimmy Olsen has never been played by a redhead, despite being a redhead in the comics. Yet, everyone is saying how great it is to see a different take on the character. I'm not offended, necessarily. I've just been paying attention to the redheads that I do see on TV lately, and I've noticed that they're usually bullies or bad guys. Not cool)

Ultimately, the problem with Supergirl is that the whole premise of the show is that she isn't Superman. The audience is constantly left to wonder why he isn't there. Why is she fighting his villains. Why is she living his life? The show is pretty much just gender-swapping Superman most of the time. And it's a shame, because Supergirl has a story that Superman can't tell. He is essentially human, she is not. He can't really feel the pain of losing his home the way that she can. He can't really feel like an outsider the way that she can. But rather than play up the uniquely Supergirl stories, they just keep making her not-Superman.

She shouldn't be working for a news outlet. Jimmy shouldn't be there. Lucy Lane and General Lane shouldn't be there. Maxwell Lord is just not-Lex Luthor. Astra is just not-Zod. And they keep giving Supergirl Clark's enemies from the start, like Livewire and Bizarro, so... who has Superman actually fought in this universe?

Now, they are going to bring in The Flash. Barry Allen will meet Supergirl before Superman. They will undoubtedly do the race that we usually see between The Flash and Superman. It's all just wrong.

It's like they didn't actually want to do a Supergirl series, but they couldn't get the rights to Superman, so they were stuck with her. Now they have no idea what to do with her, so they just make her not-Superman. I don't feel like they have the same level of excitement about making this show that we see with The Flash or Legends of Tomorrow. It's so sloppy that they regularly have characters shouting huge secret information in the middle of crowded rooms.

I find the show extra frustrating, because it didn't have to be bad. But it is.



Arrow -

Speaking of Curtis... if he is supposed to be an Olympic level athlete, why did they cast someone who is rather physically unremarkable? This is someone who would have been training hard, for way longer than Oliver has been. So, I would have expected more.

That aside, my complaint about Supergirl's writers being bored and lacking energy goes for Arrow as well. Felicity's paralysis storyline wasn't even played up as much as Barry's was, after his Zoom attack. We knew that he wasn't going to stay in the wheelchair after that, but it was still played more dramatically than Felicity's story. Now they have her acting as though she's been this way for years, without a single setback or moment of frustration (much less, months of therapy). They have her sitting in her wheelchair UPSTAIRS at their apartment! And now they've introduced the McGuffin to make it all go away. So the question is, why did they bother? It's like lighting a character on fire and having them just sit there, watching TV, never stopping to notice or care that he is on fire.

I don't understand why Malcolm is sitting at the evil dinner table of doom with Damien's evil sidekicks and hands over Oliver's son, yet doesn't just tell Damien who Green Arrow, Black Canary, Spartan, Overwatch, Speedy, and for that matter, The Flash are, under the masks.

None of the motivation makes sense on the show anymore, and it feels like the writers don't even care about that. These are obvious issues that the writers could easily fix, but they don't.

And why is Oliver willing to bend over backward to stay friendly with the woman who stole his kid from him? I don't get it!



The Flash --
I'm not sure who the man in the mask is. I've seen theories that it could be Earth-2 Wally West, but I don't know. Could there be more than two Jay Garricks? Or could the Jay we know not even be Jay at all (his double is named Hunter Zolomon, after all).

What does everyone here think of Wally West so far? I've been a fan of his in the comics for years, but I'm not really liking this version of him. He comes across as very whiny and selfish, and there is no extra charisma or chemistry with the rest of the cast that makes him anything more than that.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Informant wrote:

The Flash --
I'm not sure who the man in the mask is. I've seen theories that it could be Earth-2 Wally West, but I don't know. Could there be more than two Jay Garricks? Or could the Jay we know not even be Jay at all (his double is named Hunter Zolomon, after all.

We've taken for granted that Jay was telling the truth and that he lost his speed (the latest story being the Velocity drug).  What if this Jay never had speed to begin with?  I'll admit that this Zoom story is far from elegant and in danger of becoming non-sensical.  I fear the reveal is not going to be satisfying.  I did see one amusing argument, though.  What if the dimension tunnel image of John Wesley Shipp as 1990's Flash was not just a wink?  Could Zoom be the Barry Allen of the 1990's Flash series?

As for Wally, he's kind of bland on the show; but they haven't given him a lot to do yet.  To be honest, I think they would have been better off to introduce Bart Allen / Impulse; he has more of an instant vibrant character that could have shaken things up.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Well, they went ahead and revealed it.  Anyone surprised?

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

A little surprised. Definitely intrigued. I'm curious to see which version of Jay is which, or if any of these people are really Jay at all. And the man in the mask could still be Ronnie, I think. Maybe that is how Zoom learned about Barry's Flash.

I wonder if Barry will find a way to get back to Earth-2 on his own, or if maybe he will be Vibed over there.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Well I was starting to think that "Jay Garrick" is someone else entirely (so the person we've seen is Hunter Zolomon and another actor would be playing the real Flash/Jay Garrick), but I keep getting stopped when I remember that Wells/Jay had an altercation on Earth 2.  Wells seemed to recognize him as the actual Flash so I guess that's not the case.

The guy on the bench could be Zoom.  But for Jay to also be the guy in the iron mask, there'd need to be an Earth 3 or some sort of complicated time travel.

I'm a little disappointed in the reveal just because I don't think Jay has been a very good character and they *just* did the whole "good guy is the main bad guy" thing last season.  So the reveal is both weak and lazy.  Even if this turns out to be as good as season one, they need to try something different next season.  No hidden reveal, no betrayal, and I'd say no other speedster.  It'd be cool if they could take someone like Mirror Master, who could be someone that Barry might face in a normal "villain of the week" episode, and find a way to make him a powerful enough enemy that he could be a season-long problem.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Agreed. Or maybe we start to see Barry's rogues coming together to take him down.

I'm still waiting to see how this plays out. Zoom still had Jay in his arms there, so it's not like Jay has actually been Zoom all along. But then again, he was probably hiding something... so, is he bad? Is he good? Is he the good half of a guy who was somehow split apart, creating Zoom?

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I would keep in mind too what I pointed out at the beginning of the season; the Zoom plotline could be a take on the Garrick villain called The Rival.   In later presentations The Rival was presented as someone who looked like Jay.  I think that's probably where they're going with this, but I do think it was too soon to go back to that same idea.

For another season wide villain, I would look at Abra Kadabra.  In the comics, he was kind of a goofball who traveled from the 64th century with circuitry woven into his skin that allowed him to perform feats that seemed like magic.   The hook for him is what they did later.  Wally West was fighting him when Abra's defeat lead to the circuitry catching on fire with the skin on Abra's entire body burning.   The resultant short circuit led to Abra shifting out of phase and becoming a kind of ghost for a bit, but he made it back into the solid world by exploiting a Mirror Master device.

The rub here is that when Abra came back, he wasn't goofy anymore; he was scary as hell and a force to be reckoned with.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I preferred Temporal Flux's idea that Zoom was Barry Allen from the 1990s TV series -- with the casting even making sense; of course an older Barry Allen looks like our Barry's father.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

A version of Abra Kadabra would be cool. Start him off as that lightweight villain, and then show how Barry's actions can make things far worse. While not actually his fault, it would still make the matter personal.

Good call.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

When the heck is DC going to give us our own show on the CW?  My suggestion is a Nightwing show, but I could be talked into just about anything.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I agree! (but maybe don't give us Plastic Man. For some reason, I've never been able to take him seriously)


Actually, just give us Supergirl. We could turn it around.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

So I'm enjoying Legends of Tomorrow.  It's not great, but it's fun and I think they're having fun playing with some concepts.  The dark future of Star City was pretty cool, and I think it had a lot of fun with the whole Arrow mythology.  As far as I'm concerned, that episode alone was worth launching the series.  I really do hope that it's an anthology series and not this team because I do have some issues with the cast of characters.

Snart is probably the best character on the show, but I'm wondering if they're cheating themselves of a good character on Flash by making him too "good" on LoT.  I know he's been a bit of an ambiguous character, but I think he's always tended to look out for himself (which is why, even though he's been a "good guy" on Flash a couple times, he ends up staying a villain).  But on Legends, it seems like he's more of a selfless character than any of the others.  He seems to be the only one concerned about the mission at times, even when he's on his occasional side-trips to...steal...something?

I don't know.  I guess every episode he's doing something off-book, but he's also always saving the day.  So I guess it'll be interesting to see what happens next time he's on Flash because I'd assume he'd be entirely different once he's back from this mission.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

So I'm enjoying Legends of Tomorrow.  It's not great, but it's fun and I think they're having fun playing with some concepts.  The dark future of Star City was pretty cool, and I think it had a lot of fun with the whole Arrow mythology.  As far as I'm concerned, that episode alone was worth launching the series.  I really do hope that it's an anthology series and not this team because I do have some issues with the cast of characters.

Snart is probably the best character on the show, but I'm wondering if they're cheating themselves of a good character on Flash by making him too "good" on LoT.  I know he's been a bit of an ambiguous character, but I think he's always tended to look out for himself (which is why, even though he's been a "good guy" on Flash a couple times, he ends up staying a villain).  But on Legends, it seems like he's more of a selfless character than any of the others.  He seems to be the only one concerned about the mission at times, even when he's on his occasional side-trips to...steal...something?

I don't know.  I guess every episode he's doing something off-book, but he's also always saving the day.  So I guess it'll be interesting to see what happens next time he's on Flash because I'd assume he'd be entirely different once he's back from this mission.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I'm beginning to wonder if we'll get a pseudo reset button at the end of Legends season one.  The Heatwave situation is on the verge of ruining a good character dynamic for Flash, and I can't imagine they would do that.  There's also the issue of throwing away the present day Hawkman.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

The Hawkman thing is easily resolve, I think. He died in the past, so there are a couple of different ways that they could bring him back, even without bringing him back from the dead.

Snart... I get the potential danger of making him too good, but there is an equal danger in not moving the character in either direction out of fear of upsetting the balance. He started out as a villain and became more layered as time went on, even on The Flash. His arc has to go somewhere, or else it's a waste of time. I don't think he will ever be "Barry Allen" good. I think that he is a big picture good guy, but a street level bad guy. He doesn't want to kill. He just doesn't mind taking things from people.

Heatwave is a problem. He was someone who I could never really see becoming a hero. He doesn't have the same code of honor that Snart has. He's interesting to have around, but what happened in the last two episodes was a natural progression for him.

As for the future of the show, I think that they will probably cycle some characters out. Wentworth and Dominic are supposed to be going back to Prison Break soon, right? So I don't know if they'll be around next year. But I don't think that the show needs to wipe the slate clean every single year. I don't know if Rip will be the constant of the series or not, but if the story for next year warrants keeping Sara or Ray around, I don't want them to get kicked off of the show just because they want to have a new cast every year.

Though I don't think Firestorm will stay. Stein has a wife. He can't spend years and years travelling through time. Even if he goes back to the moment he left, he will still age. And he's not exactly young.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Well the problem with sticking with Rip and time travel is the idea that they aren't even able to maintain this Vandal Savage story for a full season.  We're 7 episodes in, and they've already had to resort to being marooned in one time, getting sent to the future accidentally, and this past episode they got sent off into space.  Not to mention I'm not even sure they have any real idea how they're going to "stop" Savage in the past.  It seems to me the simplest way would be to attack Savage during any of the hundreds of years where the team would have a distinct technological advantage.  If the issue is having some sort of record of where Savage is (and 1975 was their first chance), they could easily track him by going back to ancient Egypt and then tracking him forward.

So I don't know if making this their central story really works.

What would be cool with LoT, in my opinion - based exclusively on what TF said earlier in the discussion, would be to use this format to tell stories that might not need a full spinoff.  They could do a season dealing with Vixen (introduced as an animated series, then showed up on Arrow) or Nightwing or even Arsenal.  There could be a season dealing with Deathstroke or Earth 2/3/etc.  It'd be different from the title, but I'd actually like to see a Gotham-like season dealing with street crime in Central City or Star City.  Maybe even from the villains' point of view.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I think that format would work. They could keep the "Legends" theme, but alter the rest of it to fit whatever arc they're working with "Legends of Yesterday" "Legends of Magic" "Legends of Oa", etc. I just don't want it to be a firm rule that nobody is allowed to be in more than one season.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

No, I don't think so either.  And they may have enough success that, like Heroes before it, they aren't able to do the anthology they want.  I just don't know if the "chasing Vandal Savage" angle really works for an entire series.

But, yeah, if they wanted to have Ray mentor a young hero, team Hawkman and Hawkgirl with Vixen, or have Sara join a new Birds of Prey, that'd be fine with me.  I actually think my "low level street crime in the Arrowverse" story would work best with Cold/Heat Wave.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

It might be a good way to take Laurel off of Arrow for a while, so she can return as the Black Canary that isn't a sidekick and who could run the Justice League.

I've actually enjoyed the fact that Legends hasn't forced Vandal into every episode. That would make him and the heroes all look weak and stupid.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

No, I'm not saying they need to force Vandal in every episode.  But when you have a show with a clear goal (find/kill Vandal Savage), you either need to have a clear/focused story with only a handful of episodes (something like 11-22-63 on Hulu) or you have these situations where you get thrown off course for whatever reason.  "Oh no, we got thrown into the future!" or "Oh no, we gotta go into space!" And those can be fun, but what happens when it happens for the 30th time?  Then I think they can look equally weak or stupid.

Now maybe they get Savage this season and next season is something entirely different.  And even if it was just "Ray Palmer, Time Lord" - I just don't see it.  So that's why I'd prefer to use this show as a way to tell stories that you can't tell on Flash or Arrow.  Particularly since I definitely don't want to see another spinoff.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Yeah, that makes sense.

On another note, I think it may be time to end Arrow. Maybe give it another season, so the flashbacks catch up with the show (not that it matters, since they failed to really explain how Oliver became the man we saw in season 1). The writers seem bored and the other shows are much more enjoyable. I'd rather see the Arrow characters show up on The Flash or Legends from time to time than see Arrow drag on forever.


By the way, how did 11.22.63 turn out? I am waiting to binge watch it once it's all released. It was one of the coolest projects I've worked on though.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

You're in 11.22.63?  What did you do??

It's pretty good.  Drags a bit but it's compelling.  As a native DFWite, the idea that he's teaching in some fictional place between Dallas and Fort Worth is annoying, but I've gotten passed it.  But it's one of those shows that could've probably dragged on further, but they have one mission with some bumps along the way so they don't have to have the episode where Jake has to do "fun side mission" or whatever smile

As far as Arrow goes, I think Amell has made some sort of reference to only having five seasons.  I'm not sure if they'll stick to that, but it might hold true.  I honestly don't think it's as bad as you've said, and I treat it a bit like Supernatural (it's out of its prime, but it's still enjoyable).  But I do worry that the Arrowverse (now including Supergirl) has spread itself way too thin.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

For me, Arrow has committed some unforgivable storytelling sins. To paralyze one of your central characters and not bother to invest in that story just shows lack of interest. And to set up a pointless mystery (the grave) for no real reason and to have no idea where it is going... They want the big shocking moments, but they couldn't care less about everything surrounding those moments. It's like someone humming a song and only bothering to sing the chorus.


I was an extra for the days that they filmed in Dallas (a speech, the assassination stuff and a couple of other things) and I was a stand-in one day too. Filming in Dealey Plaza in the clothes and with the cars was a really trippy experience. I did some work around Lee Harvey Oswald's house too, which was weird.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Let's pin the Kennedy assassination on Informant.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I did visit that date multiple times in 2015, after all! (Another movie recreated the assassination not long after 11.22.63)

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

http://io9.gizmodo.com/the-first-offici … 1763814407

I've asked this on another site, but nobody took the question seriously:

How many "homages" will it take before people finally accept the fact that the show is just a stale Superman ripoff? An homage is a clever nod. It's not every episode being taken from the pages of Superman. This is not an homage! This is like calling season 3 of Sliders an homage to 90's film-making.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I don't think Supergirl is stale.  It's definitely Superman with a lead female, but I still think it's fun.  I think Melissa Benoist is the reason why I like it so much - after not really loving the casting at first, she brings so much warmth to the role.  I think that's something that I think is missing in Cavill's performance that I think existed in Tom Welling's performance (and in previous appearances).

As far as Arrow goes, they're really falling flat on stuff that's supposed to be exciting.  Oliver's "death" and Felicity's attack and subsequent paralysis....they're symptoms of the show wanting to put their characters in danger but don't want to disrupt the status quo.  They're willing to kill fringe characters like Moira and Sara (sorta), but everyone else is pretty safe.  In a world like Arrow, I'd think Oliver would have to deal with death all the time.  That's why I secretly hope that it's Diggle in the grave - it'd shake up the world (and they could then bring on Andy to fill the Diggle/Spartan role, allowing that to be a redemption story).

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Ugh. Andy should have stayed dead.

I just don't get why you would disable a character if you didn't plan to do anything with it. It makes no sense to me. Injuries add texture and depth to a story, like adding rain to a scene. I don't know what they were thinking.

With Supergirl, I think that they're trying so hard to tell Clark's story that they're failing to tell Kara's. She remembers the family that died. She came to a world where she couldn't understand anyone, much less fit into the culture. Being sunny and fun is something that she should have to earn... But they jumped forward a decade and have her Clark's personality, his rogues gallery and his outlook on life. They robbed her of her story. That is a horrible thing to do to a character.

By simply remaking Superman as a girl, she can never be anything except who she isn't. She will never be Superman.