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Slider_Quinn21 wrote:

Exactly - I would think, at some point, Clark wouldn't look 25 either.  Since Smallville could exists in our past, it could also exist in the Arrowverse's past.  And depending on how far back you want to put it, you could place Clark in that time period.  Whatever age a middle aged superpowered Kryptonian is.

And, again, if you put Clark in a time far in Smallville's future, you eliminate any future need for a crossover.  The Smallville universe went on, everyone lived full, happy lives, the comics exist, etc....but now they're all gone.  So no need to bother Michael Rosenbaum or Kristen Kruek or Justin Hartley or bother with the tragedies surrounding the show.

Tom Welling's Clark is the only one who still exists.

Hmm. Well, I'd hope that if they got Tom Welling for a storyline where Clark has outlived everyone and is at the end of time (hence Tom Welling's natural and healthy aging), they would also get Erica Durance to play Lois. The DC ONE MILLION story arc has Clark, living in the year 1,000,000. Everyone he ever knew is gone. But at the end of the story, Lois comes back to life and they live happily ever after.

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I think that's fine.  Erica is probably one of the few Smallville actors who'd easily come back (since she's already been back smile )

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Brandon Routh is leaving Legends.  It's crazy that the show has had pretty big turnover from it's original cast (only Rory and Sara will be left), but it doesn't really feel like it.

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I once wrote a long essay on why Routh is my favourite part of LEGENDS which is here:

To sum up, Routh was very stiff and wooden on ARROW, continuing a lengthy run of stiff and wooden performances in DYLAN DOG, SCOTT PILGRIM, DYLAN DOG, CHUCK and others. But on LEGENDS, he came out of the depression he'd been after Henry Cavill replaced him as Superman. His performances became impassioned and heartfelt, Ray Palmer became a joy and I'm sad that Brandon Routh is leaving.

It looks like he didn't ask to be written out. I'm not sure WHY the show would write out what has been a strong and consistent asset. However, if Routh is moving on, I would really like to see Routh perform a lead role again. One of LEGENDS' ongoing jokes, intentional or not, is that Ray Palmer looks like a leading man but clearly does not have what it takes to lead his own show.

Ray's initial hypercomptence on ARROW gave way to a staggering ineptitude on LEGENDS where he couldn't control his Atom suit, was easily outwitted by villains and was in some ways a liability to the Legends. Strangely, this turned Ray from the dimensionless mannequin of ARROW into a fully defined person and Routh went from being a somewhat bland figure of unthreatening masculinity to a real actor.

On LEGENDS, Ray is not the leading man type; he just looks like one, but he is completely dependent on Sarah to direct him, for Nate to support him emotionally and fraternally, for Rory to muscle through resistance and for whoever happens to be around to run interference for him while Ray supplies improvisation, perseverence and scientific brilliance. Deliberately or not, it reflects how Routh failed as a leading man and has at this point functioned best within the LEGENDS ensemble. Within LEGENDS, Routh has really blossomed as an actor.

He's gotten so good as an actor now that if he's to leave LEGENDS, I would really like to see him take on another leading role again. Someone unlike Ray Palmer but who can make use of Routh's ability to go from morose to hyper. I'd like to see Brandon Routh and Courtney Ford headline a reboot of the TV show REMINGTON STEELE. I've never seen this show, but I like the premise:

Laura Holt (Stephanie Zimbalist) opens a detective agency but finds that potential clients refuse to hire a woman no matter how qualified. To solve the problem, Laura invents a fictitious male superior she names Remington Steele.

Through a series of events in the first episode, Pierce Brosnan's character, a former thief and con man, assumes the identity of Remington Steele. A struggle ensues between Laura and Steele as to who is really in charge.

It could happen.

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From the brief amount I read on the subject, it just sounds like they don't really have much for Ray to do.  So instead of writing him and Nora in circles, they're just going to give them a happy ending.  If he enjoyed the experience, I"m sure he'd come back, and I think they'd find a cool way to involve him in a finale or something.

It's remarkable that Legends is successful at all.  For a show with such a thin connection to the rest of the Arrowverse, a seemingly-limited premise, and a revolving door of a cast, it's a miracle that the show is as fun, as creative, and as engaging as it is.

It's also pretty incredible that the Crisis on Infinite Earths will end with an episode of Legends, after they were left out of the crossover entirely last year.

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I love Supergirl's new costume and I am relieved that the Flash is getting his chinstrap back. That alone would have elevated every episode of the previous season of THE FLASH from an average of 6 out of 10 to a 6.125 out of 10.

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They did the impossible: … 202738738/

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant


I don't care if Tom looks his age, looks his weight, or looks nothing like Clark Kent.  The fact that he's coming back at all is a huge gift to the fans.  This is how it needs to be.

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I assume Tom will work out and dye his hair. Or wear a muscle suit.

1,110 (edited by Slider_Quinn21 2019-09-20 08:01:27)

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Yeah I'm not sure his motivations.  Whether he's doing it because the CW found enough money to make it work.  Or if he was worn down by Guggenheim and Stephen Amell and anyone else who kept bothering him about it.  Or if he knew that he'd never hear the end of it if he didn't.

I'm hoping he just realized that he'd make millions of people, like myself, happy by giving it one more go.  And if that was his reason, I'm willing to write around however he wants.  Because I'll appreciate it for the gift it is smile

I'm reminded of how I felt when it was confirmed that Michael Rosenbaum was coming back for the finale of Smallville.  It didn't matter that he refused to shave his head again.  It was just nice to have one more Clark/Lex scene.

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To be fair, Rosenbaum wore the bald cap pretty effectively and the director did a good job of keeping Lex's oversized head slightly out of frame at the top and slightly narrowing the image so that Lex didn't seem inflated in the forehead.

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Erica Durance also on board to reprise Lois Lane: … mallville/

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TV Line also ran a prediction story the other day, and one of their predictions was that many of the people that have been announced (Kevin Conroy, Burt Ward, maybe even Routh etc) might just be cameos in some sort of montage.

So maybe the multiverse is collapsing and the red sky is appearing everywhere.  You'd get Kevin Conroy at the Batcomputer (maybe with the Batman Beyond suit in the background) looking up at a monitor.  You'd get a campy Burt Ward in a Robin suit looking up.  You'd get Shipp Barry looking up.  And maybe even Welling-Clark and Durance-Lois having a romantic moment when the sky turns red.

Just a fun "this is happening in other universes" type thing.  All the cameos could even be non-speaking.

It was just their theory, but it makes sense.

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It would actually be a wink at the original comics story.

When Crisis was released, the monthly titles that were tied in had a special masthead stating “Special Crisis Crossover”:

Some were legitimate crossovers that gave an insight or continuation to the story in the main event series.  But some of crossovers (like the one above) simply featured one panel of characters looking up at the red sky and wondering what was going on.  Collectors (who felt tricked into buying those issues) came to call these “Red Skies issues” of the crossover because that was the only relation to Crisis - red skies.

So, could we be getting all this hype just to have a red skies cameo?  Well, it would be true to the original comics release (including the resentment felt by some of the viewers).

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No Rosenbaum. … o0eEdEUGc.

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Anyone want to place bets on Rosenbaum changing his mind half a week before filming and showing up for two days of filming which translates to two scenes and some second unit b-roll? I bet against that last time and lost.

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If the Rosenbaum stuff is true....I don't get it.  Are they worried about spoilers?  Do they think if Rosenbaum got a script, he'd leak it on his podcast?  Because if that was their offer, I don't get it either.  You might be able to get someone like Tom Welling to do something for the love of the material, but I don't think that's the way you get Rosenbaum.

That said, maybe they're actually planning on doing a scene in the Smallville universe if they were actually going to have Lex show up.  The cameo theory doesn't make sense unless it's somehow a scene with Clark, Lois, and Lex in the same place at the same time.  Which, of course, they could make happen.  And it might make sense considering the pay and lack of script - since all he'd essentially get is "Clark, Lois, and Lex are arguing when they look up" so there wouldn't be any real reason to send him anything.

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For me, they’ve got to give these cameos a little more than a non-speaking 5 second clip.  In some cases (like Kevin Conroy), a speaking part is even needed - many wouldn’t recognize him otherwise.

And who doesn’t want Burt Ward to look up at the red skies and at least say “Holy sh...” before his words get cut off.

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Oh I agree.  I think there's no reason to get some of these people unless you're going to have fun with it, and I'd prefer to get an "update" on the Smallville universe instead of just a cameo.  Heck, I'd prefer to see Tom Welling's Superman fighting alongside Stephen Amell's Oliver, but I'm happy to get whatever they want to give us.

I'm just speculating because I imagine "non-speaking cameo" fits right into whatever it sounds like the CW offered Michael Rosenbaum.  But he could be wrong or the agent could've told him wrong or whatever.

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And looks like the new DC show hinted at is just a spin-off of Arrow.  Guess they could call it Arrow Beyond: … 203347438/

It’s okay, I guess.  I had hoped they would at least give us a different family of characters (like a Question series featuring the Charlton heroes).

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I think it could be cool.  I always liked Batman Beyond as a coda to the Timmverse.  I would've preferred to find out what happened to Dick Grayson (he was referenced quite a bit but never actually showed up), but it worked to follow up on a lot of thing (even the Justice League).

Since the flash-forwards were pretty dark (Star City literally fell), it might be nice to have the new show fix some of that so that Oliver's legacy isn't completely tarnished.  And it'd be cool to catch up on the next generation of Team Flash, whatever's become of the Legends, etc.  And with the inclusion of Batwoman, there's a decent chance we could get some form of Terry McGinnis which would be spectacular.

I know that's not really what we'd probably get week to week, but I'd love some form of Arrowverse Beyond, especially as a lot of parts of the Arrowverse start to ramp down.

Note - I say that while they're about to launch a new show and are planning another one - so it's not exactly ramping down.  I just wonder if Flash isn't too far from also closing up shop, and I don't know what kind of legs Legends has.  It seems to have the ability to go forever since the cast has almost 100% turned over and it still seems to be going strong.

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Rosenbaum has to be exaggerating slightly. There is absolutely no way a production company could offer "no money"; the actor's union requires a base level salary no matter what. The pay probably wasn't specified which pissed Rosenbaum off. It makes a degree of sense, however, that the production would not divulge story details until the actor was locked in with an NDA.

It could be that production didn't know if they could come up with a role for Rosenbaum when they're already juggling a lot, but then they found one at the last minute. In addition, they weren't able to speak to him directly; they went through his agent as Rosenbaum was unavailable for a direct meeting and communication can often get garbled. People are only human and there's no need to assume malice or even incompetence as much as people being rushed, distracted and busy. That's how the very talented, very gifted Season 10 SMALLVILLE writers forgot whether or not Clark was wearing glasses.

When SMALLVILLE's final season was airing, I kept saying that Michael Rosenbaum wasn't essential to the finale; they could use Lucas Grabeel who played the young Lex in flashbacks and as a clone. Slider_Quinn21 said that it would never be satisfying for the Pilot to have started with Jerry O'Connell versus Jerry O'Connell and for the finale to feature Zoe McLellan versus Robert Floyd -- I mean, for the Pilot to have started with Tom Welling and Michael Rosenbaum and for "Finale" to end with Tom Welling and Lucas Grabeel.

Then the finale came and it had Michael Rosenbaum for two scenes and some footage of him as President and no Lucas Grabeel at all. I grumbled that Grabeel should have played Lex throughout the episode but then aged/morphed into Rosenbaum for those two scenes and Slider_Quinn21 asked if I were Grabeel's agent. I later found out: the plan had been to use Grabeel for every Lex scene and then pull a Season 7 shot of Rosenbaum's face and graft it onto Grabeel to show the young Lex growing into the adult version.

If Rosenbaum came back, they would have Grabeel age into the adult Lex earlier. But the finale lost Grabeel when he got a regular role on SWITCHED AT BIRTH and then got Rosenbaum but only for two scenes. Anyway. Perhaps it's time to revive the campaign and have Lucas Grabeel play Lex in CRISIS.

But honestly -- I cannot even wrap my head around Superman being played by Tyler Hoechlin AND Brandon Routh AND Tom Welling while having Lois played by Bitsie Tulloch AND Erica Durance and to have Routh playing Ray Palmer AND Superman. There was a certain TV logic to John Wesley Shipp playing Grant Gustin's father and also playing the older Barry Allen of Earth 90; Barry will look like Gustin when young and like Shipp when middle aged. But why the hell would a double of Clark Kent have Hoechlin's face while another has Routh's and another has Welling's?

Why does Erica Durance's Lois Lane share a face with Clark Kent's aunt, Alura? Ray Palmer noted in "Invasion!" that Kara Zor-El (Melissa Benoist) looked like his cousin, but I suspect this may be one of those things best not thought about such as why no one ever seems to hand over money for coffee at Jitters and Central City's citizens never panic over seeing Sherloque wandering the streets with the face of self-confessed murderer Harrison Well or how Oliver is paying rent when he lost his company.

Maybe I'll just have to dismiss the strangeness here or ask Temporal Flux to explain it to me.

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Well this all goes back to my crazy rant where, in a "realistic" portrayal of Sliders (ha ha ha), no doubles would ever look alike.  It's absurd to me that it can be a version of Earth where there were vampires or the Americans lost the Revolutionary War or dinosaurs still existed and everyone in the history of both Quinn's parents' families met at the same time, had sex at the same time, and the same sperm fertilized the same egg in each of those realities.  The odds are that a lot of those relatives wouldn't have met (or existed) and if they did, they wouldn't have had sex, and if they did, the sex would've resulted in some other sperm and egg getting together and if there were doubles, they'd be fraternal.  And so the idea that the Jerry O'Connell Quinn sperm fertilized the Jerry O'Connell Quinn egg is preposterous at best smile

So my guess is that if you had 100 Supermans from 100 different realities, they'd all look different.

I've talked about rationalizing this in certain ways - maybe there are "neighborhoods" where the Sliders always existed in their current forms and that's where the Sliders tended to go.  Maybe the multiverse keeps things familiar for them.  Or maybe it's just fate at work - people are meant to be born and so no matter how different earths are, the same sperm always fertilizes the same egg.  I don't know - that's above my pay grade.

As for how Ray Palmer can look like Clark Kent and how Lois can look like Alura?  My guess is that there's a definite number of humanoid faces that can exist so if you have an infinite number of humanoid lifeforms, two are bound to look identical smile


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Slider_Quinn21 wrote:

Well this all goes back to my crazy rant where, in a "realistic" portrayal of Sliders (ha ha ha), no doubles would ever look alike.  It's absurd to me that it can be a version of Earth where there were vampires or the Americans lost the Revolutionary War or dinosaurs still existed and everyone in the history of both Quinn's parents' families met at the same time, had sex at the same time, and the same sperm fertilized the same egg in each of those realities.

Or take the Guardian world: the earth spinning faster means that days are shorter, so unless they somehow do everything -- *everything* -- faster, people on this world would never have had the time to cram as much life in one day as their doubles did on earth prime.

That said, when you say that no doubles would ever look alike, I think in some cases it wouldn't be true. I mean yeah in the worlds you mentionned it doesn't work, because something in their past is fundamentally different from earth prime's. But the way I make sense of the Sliders multiverse is more like a branching tree, with points of divergence (which IINM is more or less what the many-worlds interpretation of quantum physics is about). So the relative closeness of two worlds in Sliders would have to do with when their points of divergence happened: the longer ago, the more different the two worlds. It's a lot like evolution actually: the older their last common ancestor, the more different two species are.

So to take your example, if the point of divergence of the two worlds occured after fertilization, Quinn and his double would look a lot alike wink

This point-of-divergence interpretation fits nicely with what you said about neighborhoods: maybe there's something in the very nature of sliding that makes your landing in a recent-divergence world way more likely.

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I wonder if the explanation might partially be found in the "Flashpoint" arc. At the end of Season 2 of THE FLASH, Barry goes back in time and stops Thawne from killing his mother, creating the Flashpoint timeline where his parents never died. But when Wally is injured, Barry realizes he didn't make the world better, just delegated his pain to someone else, so he stops his past self from preventing the murder. But he returns to the present to find it altered: Cisco's brother is dead, Caitlin has the metahuman gene when she didn't in the previous reality, Diggle's daughter Sara is now a son named John, Thawne survived his Season 1 erasure by shifting into the Speed Force to menace the cast of LEGENDS, Iris and Joe are estranged, Doc Brown has been institutionalized, Marty's mother is now married to Biff Tannen and so on.

Jay Garrick later explains: when you change the timeline, you can never put it back exactly as it used to be. He vibrates a coffee cup, breaking it into shards, then forces the broken shards back into place, but the cup's structure is now unstable and unsound. Temporal Flux said it suggested a butterfly effect theory; that Nora Allen living a few seconds longer would cause subatomi variations that would reverberate through the whole of reality in ways small and large.

To me, it suggested that every instance of time being reset to an earlier version, any instance of random chance and multiple outcome is also reset to allow for another outcome. In the original timeline, the chance of Cisco losing his brother to a random car accident is now open to another outcome, an X-chromosome is now a Y, a chance genetic variation that made Caitlin a normal human is now varied to make her Killer Frost.

It's also been established in Season 2: the timeline we saw in Season 1 is not the original timeline. The 1990s FLASH TV show is the original timeline, but when Thawne travelled backwards to integrate himself into the life of his favourite superhero, the Flash, Thawne discovered that history would record Thawne as the Flash's greatest villain. Their cross temporal battles altered the timeline and erased Thawne's own origin; as a result, Thawne had to restage the accident that gave the Flash his powers. All these resets must have produced multiple timelines with random chance and multiple outcomes splintering repeatedly, resulting in genetic variabilities like Caitlin going from human to metahuman -- or perhaps making Superman look like Tom Welling, then Brandon Routh, then Tyler Hoechlin with each version co-existing within the ever-expanding multiverse.



One of my favourite SPIDER-MAN comic stories is SPIDER-VERSE where Spider-Man discovers that an interdimensional group of predators is hunting doubles of Spider-Man across the multiverse. These include the mainstream comic book version, the 60s and 90s animated version, the Disney ULTIMATE version, Spider-Ham, Spider-Gwen and pretty much every version except for the Tobey Maguire and Andrew Garfield versions as Sony owned the rights.

When Spider-Man visits the 1960s cartoon universe, he's drawn normally, but the environment around him and all the characters are rendered in the blocky, dated art style of the era. When Spider-Man visits the Disney cartoon universe, he finds the art style of the TV show. When characters from these universes visit the mainstream universe, they continue to appear in their design styles, at odds with the artwork that surrounds them. At one point, two Spider-Men note that they encountered a Spider-Man who looked like the guy from SEABISCUIT and another whose face was seen in THE SOCIAL NETWORK.

I wonder if there's some aspect of that to Superman of three different Earths being played by three actors.

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In the comics, they did a quasi-sequel to Crisis called Zero Hour: A Crisis in Time.  The idea was that this time various time lines were being destroyed (which is not a firm distinction from parallel worlds, in my opinion); and as time collapsed, the various histories began to overlap.

The comics visually represented this by having each character presented in their original art style from that period:

This is kind of what’s happening with the actors in the Arrowverse shows.  The comics didn’t try to explain why the Batmen looked different; they just put it out there, let those different personalities interact and fans just took it as a neat little nod to the history they knew or a pointer to check out things they hadn’t seen before.

But from a dimensional perspective as is currently theorized, we perceive reality different depending on what dimension we’re looking at it through (dimensions still denoted as a way of measurement and not a metaphysical concept as many often take it).

We live in the 3rd dimension of solid objects with length, width and height.  We master that.

We can perceive the 4th dimension of time but only in a limited, one way manner.  Travel or perspectives from the 4th dimension are Avengers: Endgame logic.  You can change whatever you want in the past, but the future you return to will always be the one you left.  You’re on one track - if you want to see that alternate future, you’re taking the long way.

The 5th dimension is alternate timelines.  This is Back to the Future.  You change something in the past; and when you return to the future, you’re now on the new timeline and don’t get to go back to the old timeline.

The 6th dimension is parallel probabilities.  For this, you don’t need time travel or any effort to make alternate time lines; you simply walk from one to the other.  These alternate realities will be things that look familiar.

The 7th dimension moves us into parallel possibilities.  The laws of physics begin to break down from what we understand.  You start seeing things that don’t make as much sense to you, but there is still some sense of things you do understand.  This begins to move us into areas of magic and folklore the further into the 7th dimension you go.

The progression on Sliders was showing us just how lost they became as time passed.  Like someone walking away from their house, they are at first going to see things and landmarks they recognize.  But the further out they go, they are exposed to things they never expected or even believed existed.

I believe what caused the Sliders to become so startlingly lost in season three started with Logan swapping out parts on the timer for less reliable technology (Double Cross was meant to be the first episode of season three).  The Sliders were pushed further toward the edges of the 6th dimension dipping into the 7th when they swapped to the Egyptian timer and it’s technology.  The Sliders were pushed even further toward the 7th dimension when they began to follow the path blazed by the more powerful Rickman timer.

So this is where I would put the actors playing dual roles in the Arrowverse Crisis. Characters like the Brandon Routh Superman are coming from the far side of the multiverse where realities start to bleed into the 7th dimension where things start to not make sense.  As the antimatter wave  progresses consuming the multiverse, it’s going to flush out these oddball refugees of alternate realities that are retreating toward Earth 1 (or at least that’s how I would handle it).  But these characters will be those that the Arrowverse characters would have never interacted with but for the collapse of the multiverse forcing it - the characters were simply too far apart until the multiverse began to “shrink”.

Incidentally, by our modern theories Mxyzptlk would most likely be from the 10th dimension.  However, he was established as being from the 5th dimension so many decades ago that they are unlikely to ever change it.

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Comic books are an illustrated and therefore impressionistic medium. TF's page scan is from 1994 and shows three versions of Batman drawn to be reminiscent of Bob Kane and Frank Miller. The 90s Batman is following the Neal Adams style as originated in 1970. When three artists' versions of Batman show up on a single page, the art explains itself even if the dialogue doesn't acknowledge it.

Bob Kane's Batman comes not only from an alternate timeline, but from an alternate reality as envisioned by a different artist, as does Neal Adams' Batman. And that works in an illustrative medium. 'God' used different pencils, brushes and printing techniques to build each world.

It's really interesting to look back at Batman's design over the years. I notice that Neal Adams' streamlined superhero look remained until 1995 when artist Kelley Jones stripped out the trunks, made the head horns more like blades and the colourists turned gloves and mask from blue to black and the rest of the body to a darker gray while the cape expanded widely. Jones made Batman look supernatural and demonic, but it was hard to see this as something a human being could wear and one imagined Batman having to crawl through doorways or crouch under low ceilings because of the ears.

In 2000, the costume was reworked again by Dave Johnson with the same colours but shortened horns, a pouch belt instead of Adams' capsules, a wide bat-emblem with no yellow. Batman looked like Neal Adams' superhero again but with a darker palette, wearing Miller's costume with Jones' colours.

In 2011, the costume was redesigned by Jim Lee to suggest the outfit was assembled from molded plates of body fitted armour with a belt of larger capsules that created a very technological texture that really fit the non-lethal, street level sci-fi version of Batman. And if you saw all these Batmans in the same frame of a comic book or an animated film, I think it would be perfectly self-explanatory as pastiches of different artists. But live action's elements are neither impressionistic nor illustrative.

To make this attitude work in live action -- I'd want to see Tyler Hoechlin's Superman visit the SMALLVILLE Earth and notice that 2000s-era pop music seems to play constantly in the background and that at 8:50 PM, there is always a slow, hearfelt conversation between two romantic partners. When Hoechlin tries to fly, he discovers that the gravity on SMALLVILLE's Earth is stronger and it's harder for him to get off the ground and also causes tights to chafe more severely than on Earth-38. He also notes that the fashion styles of this world prize street clothes over costumes.

And then I'd want Tom Welling's Clark to visit Brandon Routh's Earth and see that despite modern technology, the primary design style is that of metropolitan 1940s art deco in all the buildings and that the culture prizes silent, sustained, longing gazes over actual conversations and for Routh's Superman to discover that time runs at a slower tempo on his Earth and he doesn't have the red-blue-blurring speed of Tom Welling. And I'd want Bitsie Tulloch and Erica Durance's Loises to meet and observe that they aren't twins but might be sisters. But what happens when Ray Palmer and Brandon Routh's Superman meet?

Why does a Kryptonian-born refugee look like he's the identical twin brother of a human man?

RAY: "Wowser! It's like looking into a living mirror. Are we related?"

BRANDON ROUTH's SUPERMAN: "Are you a Kryptonian?"

RAY: "I cut myself shaving this morning so probably not. WHY are we twins?"

MICK RORY: "You're not twins, Haircut. You just look similar because square jawed types like you always gravitate to your line of work."

SUPERMAN: "Superheroes?"

MICK RORY: "Idiots."

However... I have always liked TF's explanation for why SLIDERS went from alternate histories into the supernatural and paranormal. Paradoxically, I also hate it because I don't really approve of monsters, magic and other paranormal elements in SLIDERS -- at least not as Seasons 3 - 5 presented them.

I do not dispute Temporal Flux's validity in noting that what we perceive as universal constants of reality may not be consistent across the multiverse. However, from a perspective of storytelling technique and style, I feel that this route is a mistake for SLIDERS.

The first two seasons established that SLIDERS operates on rules based in the variability of decisions. Each parallel Earth is the result of individuals making choices. Each chosen path and each potential outcome creates a world. There is no course of decision that leads to rock star vampires. Or amusement parks that feed on negative emotions. Or dragons. Or Dream Masters. Or radioactive worms that excrete immortality-granting serums. Or magic walls of fog.

While TF's system allows for these elements, they undermine the moral and functional foundation of SLIDERS stories: that people matter, that their choices have impact, that the sliders -- four homeless people with troubled pasts and fractured psyches and deep-set insecurities -- can make a difference. Magic and paranormal elements in SLIDERS, at least as they were presented in the show, create a multiverse where humans are helpless beings against forces outside their comprehension and grasped only by a select few who deal in Dream Mastering and voodoo curses and shapeshifting with brain fluid.

In addition, the solutions to these threats is never in terms of understanding the rules by which these concepts function and devising a solution via Quinn and Arturo's cleverness. Furthermore, the magic and monsters are never representative of human nature or society or any social or psychological force; it's not even symbolism, merely imagery defeated by wielding alternate imagery -- a magic sword slays the dragon, a big bomb blows up the dinosaur.

Force and violence should not be the sole means of resolving SLIDERS stories; the power that the sliders employ should be the power of imagination and decision. To me, a SLIDERS story is an adventure emerging from and being about the choices that people make.

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And now the old Birds of Prey tv series getting pulled in: … -huntress/

And it would be pretty easy to get Rachel Skarsten to reprise her Black Canary.  Skarsten is already starring on Batwoman as the main villain.

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I rewatched BIRDS OF PREY recently with my niece because she adores Rob Benedict (God in SUPERNATURAL) and he's a recurring cast member across the 13 episodes.

I love Ashley Scott as the Huntress in BIRDS OF PREY. Paradoxically, I think she's terrible. It's weird: when I look at Ashley Scott, I instantly think that she's Helena Kyle, clearly the daughter of Batman and Catwoman. She has a wonderfully defiant, feline abrasiveness in her body language. She both invites the male gaze while dismissing it with an animalistic yet playful savagery in her fight scenes. Her costume both in the original pilot and the simplified leather of the subsequent episodes speaks to an open flaunting of social norms, both refusing to dress conservatively but also refusing to dress for the edification of men.

Scott gives the Huntress a very rough sexuality: she clearly has a sex drive and is ridiculously flirtatious, but also deliberately distant -- her flirtiness is ultimately to teasingly hold others at bay. She doesn't trust; she tolerates. She comes off as emotionally unavailable yet totally unreserved. That's all Scott's body language and physicality.

However, when Ashley Scott starts talking -- that's when the character falls apart. I'm not sure if it's the direction or a lack of experience or training, but Scott simply doesn't deliver her lines with conviction or naturalism and she can't seize upon the emotions or arcs. She can't carry a scene. When furious at Barbara Gordon for taking risks, Scott doesn't convey concern or grief or exasperation, just a generic, petulant anger. When hesitantly trusting a police officer with her secret identity, Scott presents this with the same flirtiness as the Huntress holding the same man at bay. She's fine when playful and flirty, but when the Huntress needs to be vulnerable, scared, angry, embarrassed, lonely, overwhelmed, defeated or triumphant, Scott plays the scene with indecisive ineptitude. When saying she doesn't want to emulate her parents by wearing a mask, Scott delivers the line with a whiny childishness that even Wil Wheaton wouldn't hit on his worst day.

There are times when Scott is brilliant. One episode has a hilarious moment where she informally high fives the dapper and prim butler, Alfred, and actor Ian Abercrombie later told me that Scott improvised that. Scott clearly understands the character but lacks the technical skill to handle any scene requiring dialogue or emotion. Ashley Scott comes off as an understudy, a cosplayer, a photo double who's standing in for a real actress. That said, I haven't seen Ashley Scott in anything since BIRDS OF PREY and I'm sure she's gotten a lot more training and experience since then.

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Was Birds of Prey worth watching?  I've never seen anything other than the opening sequence with Batman and Joker.

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And Brandon Routh has been sharing pictures of his transformation back into Clark Kent.  Today, he posted a picture of him dressed up as Clark Kent in front of a sign that showed that Clark, in his universe, is Editor-in-Chief of the Daily Planet.

So, for Routh at least, his scenes as Superman won't be a cameo.  His was probably the least likely to be a cameo, but it's at least a positive sign that there might be more than just minor cameos for the other Supermen.

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Is Kate Bosworth going to be Lois to Routh's Superman... ?


It's hard for me to say whether BIRDS OF PREY is worth your time. I eagerly bought the DVD when it first came out and watched all of it happily with my niece, but...

IB: "Ooooh! I love watching Ashley Scott leap across rooftops! Amazing."

LAUREN: "That is not even Ashley Scott; that's some shitty computer generated animation and it looks like a PS2 graphic. Oh my God, they used that same computer generated shot in the LAST EPISODE!"

IB: "I wish you wouldn't overanalyze it so."

LAUREN: "Is that building supposed to be on fire? Those flames look like pixelated orange tissue paper!"

IB: "Lauren! Why can't you see the appeal of this?"

LAUREN: "WHAT appeal?"

IB: "We are watching 13 episodes featuring the daughter of Batman and Catwoman, the former Batgirl and the offspring of Black Canary fighting crime in hand to hand combat!"

LAUREN: "Oh, right -- that dark haired girl is Catwoman's spawn. I forgot, they only mention it EVERY OTHER SCENE and IN THE CREDITS."

IB: "I'm probably overexplaining this. The women are superheroes and the villains are the people they beat up! I'm still probably overexplaining this. Women! Punching! Evil!"

LAUREN: "The ENTIRE SHOW is overexplained and underbudgeted. They can't even afford to buy stock footage of generic cities!"

IB: "But don't Ashley Scott and Dina Meyer have amazing chemistry as Huntress and Batgirl?"

LAUREN: "Ashley Scott can't even act!"

IB: "But she... inhabits! She personifies! I just love low budget 90s shows with female leads battling supervillains. They're not for everyone."

LAUREN: "I can't take another episode of this. You're only watching this because you like watching cute girls; we might as well be watching BAYWATCH."

IB: "I've never seen BAYWATCH, but if it has Batman's hellraising offspring fighting crime, I'd check it out."

Hans Tobeason, one of BIRDS OF PREY producers, did a lengthy Q&A with the fans after the cancellation where he didn't seem very happy with the show. … eadid=4052

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I've rewatched a bunch of episodes of BIRDS OF PREY and... I really enjoy it, but there are a lot of problems here. The major problem is the budget. The original plan was to film in Toronto, but for some reason, production was relocated to Burbank but the budget wasn't increased. As a result, the show is trying to present superheroes with the same budget that the Sci-Fi Channel would assign to a season of SLIDERS. And the lack of money hits everything: the fight scenes depend on stunt doubles and sped-up footage because the money isn't there to choreograph with the actors. The same set dressings are reused constantly in different interiors. There is no location filming and every city street and rooftop is clearly an indoor set. The show reuses the same two shots of the Huntress running across rooftops and scaling a building throughout the entire 13 episode run.

And this undoubtedly affects the performances. Ashley Scott (Huntress) and Rachel Skarsten (Black Canary) are terrific with quips and wisecracks, but any time they're called upon to be emotional or pained or sad, they become strained and awkward. It looks like the episodes have been filmed with a very limited crew with extremely truncated opportunities for setups, meaning all the actors are filmed in extreme closeups (to avoid having to deal with extras or background action or any chance for retakes) and the directors are clearly working without much time or resources.

The lack of money becomes shocking later in the season when episodes start using what are obviously deleted scenes from previous episodes. Near the end of the season, a scene of Barbara and her boyfriend shows Barbara with the hairstyle that she had in the pilot episode; it's clearly an unused sequence being used to pad out an episode. Episode 3 has Barbara describing how her boyfriend's parents looked down upon her for her disability at a family dinner; near the end of the season, we see this family dinner and it's not a flashback but presented in the body of the episode, clearly another unused scene pressed into service.

Still, a number of the BIRDS OF PREY staffers went on to do ONCE UPON A TIME and I love ONCE UPON A TIME, so there's that.

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Bitsie Tulloch posted on her instagram a picture of her and Tyler Hoechlin on the set of the old Smallville Kent farm.  No Erica Durance in the picture.

That seems to imply that there's a scene that they're in together, and maybe it's a scene with no Erica Durance Lois.  Does that mean there's a chance that Welling could be in more than one scene?  Maybe even have a legit part?  That'd be awesome.

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Producer Marc Guggenheim says that the SMALLVILLE: SEASON 11 comics are canon. … 8838796289

Guess Slider_Quinn21 is now obligated to read them!

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Haha, what's the easiest way for me to purchase them? smile

I watched the premieres of Supergirl and Batwoman.  I'm confident that Informant would've continued to hate Supergirl, which continues to be the preachiest of the Arrowverse shows.  I thought the premiere was fine - I thought either show might reference Crisis in one way or another, but I guess Batwoman is technically a prequel?  I wonder how it will catch up to the present day.  I also wonder if the show will ever have Bruce show up.  Or whether or not there's a Dick Grayson or a Jason Todd or a Bat-Family of any kind.  Or Commissioner Gordon.  Or Alfred.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant … FkY3J1bWJz … -desc-rank

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FLASH opened Season 6 well with the return of the chinstrap to the Flash's suit. The giant head look was very awkward in Season 5 and I'm relieved that an absurd design choice has been amended. What took them so long?

Despite the misfire of the Season 5 Nora, I thought the premiere did a great job of playing Nora's loss for grief and balancing it with a new season of threats and dangers. Cecile pointing out to Iris that she can't skip over the grief of losing a daughter was quite beautiful.

The use of the FLASH GORDON song rankled much in the same way the use of other songs in THE FLASH's musical episode irked Informant. Once again, a song made for a completely different narrative and for a completely different character has been foolishly repurposed to content that doesn't offer the right fit.


In contrast, SUPERGIRL using the song "Supermassive Black Hole" was oddly fitting in its season premiere. I continue to adore SUPERGIRL and Informant had, in his inappropriate gatekeeping form of criticism, certain grains of truth. SUPERGIRL assumed a direct corellation between immigrants to the United States in our world and alien immigrants arriving on Earth except SUPERGIRL's immigrants could read minds and blow up buildings with a hard stare. SUPERGIRL would have been better off exploring its fictional issues and letting the audience make the connections or fail to.

Temporal Flux once noted that shows like THE TWILIGHT ZONE (or SLIDERS) would tell stories about the forces of prejudice and fear rather than transplanting "Nevertheless, she persisted" into a script and calling it a day. Because these shows focused on human nature and allegory instead of photocopying catchphrases from reality, the stories had greater meaning and timelessness. I would merely argue that ripping material from the headlines is just as valid as indirect allegory and metaphor -- it isn't as universal and it certainly won't age well, but it makes sense for SUPERGIRL given the greater visibility of gender inequality in our world today. But it puts SUPERGIRL is in an awkward place with Season 5: it wants to continue criticizing the Trump administration while preserving the victory over President Baker in Season 4.

The situation is confusing: Catco's new owner sees that Kara Danvers TOOK DOWN THE PRESIDENT with an article last year -- and wants to make sure Catco doesn't engage in any of the journalism that made it a contender. The new owner is immediately adversarial towards the staff who inexplicably signed non-compete agreements with Catco during Lena Luthor's stewardship.

Obviously, Lena deliberately sold Catco to someone whom she knew would be hostile towards it specifically to antagonize Kara. But why would anyone take a job that would prevent them from finding other work in the event of layoffs, firing or resignation? Why would Catco staff, riding the high of TAKING DOWN THE PRESIDENT, agree to such an absurd contract? And legally, it's not remotely enforceable. Once again, this is relevant to journalism where investigative reporting is proving unaffordable and reporters are competing with clickbait farms.

However, there is a lot of strain to force real-world dilemmas into a superhero reality or even a TV reality when in the fictional universe of SUPERGIRL, it's hard to believe such problems would exist.

But despite that, SUPERGIRL is doing a great job of bringing Kara's most rewarding friendship from and center, presenting it with importance and gravity, and exploring Lena's dark side beautifully.


I really liked BATWOMAN and thought, despite the clumsy use of voiceover to speed through exposition, it was effective and sets up a great first season. Ruby Rose embodies Kate Kane's defiance, superiority and feelings of inadequacy well and she performs the sardonic lines and the fight scenes beautifully. She's just as capable as Ashley Scott with the physicality but has the acting skill for the characterization as well. I really enjoyed it, but I did notice that BATWOMAN is clearly edging around a lack of access to specific Batman rights.

Specifically, BATWOMAN doesn't seem to have dispensation to use Batman, Bruce Wayne, Dick Grayson, Tim Drake, Barbara Gordon, Commissioner Gordon or even Alfred. Much like BIRDS OF PREY, BATWOMAN seems to have a fraction of the TV rights to unused segments of the Batman license. As a result, BATWOMAN is using characters and concepts that even within the comics were seen as throwaway discards, much like Batwoman herself.

The Batwoman that Ruby Rose plays made her comic book debut in 2006 under strange circumstances. DC had hired prominent LGBTQ writer Devin K. Grayson to develop a BATWOMAN title with a lesbian lead named Kate Kane -- but when the media caught wind of DC premiering a gay female lead, the company responded with a frenzied denial that there was any BATWOMAN title in the works. This was news to Grayson who was in the middle of writing BATWOMAN #2 and she says that DC never contacted her to tell her to stop working and actually never contacted her again and she moved into the video game industry.

Batwoman appeared in various backup stories and was introduced as Kate Kane, a former girlfriend of Renee Montoya. However, Batwoman only truly came into focus in 2009 when she became the lead of DETECTIVE COMICS from #854 - #863 as written by Greg Rucka and illustrated by the astonishing JH Williams III whose amazing sense of design and artistry gave Kate Kane vivid definition. Williams III's work permeates the BATWOMAN live action rendition even though as of the premiere, Kate has get to gain the vivid red wig and crimson insignia. Kate's backstory is largely the same as the TV show, and this led into 2010's BATWOMAN series written by Williams III and co-writer W. Haden Blackman.

BATWOMAN delved deeper into exploring the conflict between Batwoman and the mysterious origin of her archenemy Alice, an origin that was clearly intrinsic to Kate Kane's own origin story. Whatever Alice's secret, it was clearly Kate's secret as well and one Kate was trying to uncover.

In addition, Kate's new girlfriend was Maggie Sawyer (Alex's girlfriend from Season 2 of SUPERGIRL).

However, Williams III and Blackman abruptly quit the book with #24 and on a cliffhanger with Kate in mortal peril. They had submitted a plot for Kate and Maggie to be married. DC approved it -- but then unapproved it. Outraged that a scripted and partially drawn story was now unapproved and that the marriage was now prevented after being agreed upon, Williams III and Blackman refused to continue writing the title.

#25 was written by a new writer, Marc Andreyko, who didn't address the cliffhanger and wouldn't until BATWOMAN ANNUAL #1 which resolved the immediate threat to Kate's life from #24. However, the Alice arc by Williams III and Blackman had been structured to gradually reveal her origin story, the reasons for her psychosis, her connection to Kate Kane, her reasons for antagonizing her -- and the two writers took those stories with them when they left.

Alice never received her origin or a climax to her opening arc. Her story was left unfinished much in the same way Marc Scott Zicree's Kromagg arc was left incomplete and unaddressed.

Another castoff element that BATWOMAN has received: Luke Fox. In the comic book BATWING, Bruce Wayne was shown to be franchising Batman all over the world. BATWING was about the Batman of Central Africa, a police officer named David Zavimbe who took on the name Batwing. Despite some excellent writing from Judd Winick, BATWING sold poorly and in BATWING #19, new writers Jimmy Palmiotti and Justin Gray abruptly took over, shut down the plotlines of #1 - 18, had David quit -- and the plot switched to the newly introduced Luke Fox, son of Lucius Fox, a boxer who took over the role of Batwing.

From #19 - 34, BATWING was now set in Gotham City with a character who had some (tenuous) connection to the Bat-Family while completely discarding the Central Africa setting. While the retool was understandable, it was also jarring and the series only lasted another 16 issues before cancellation. But Luke Fox has staggered into BATWOMAN, presumably because the Alfred character is being withheld from the CW.

Anyway. I look forward to seeing Dick Grayson's Aunt Harriet instead of Dick himself, the Puzzler instead of the Riddler, Marsha Queen of Diamonds instead of Catwoman, Egghead instead of R'as Al Ghul, Tweedledum and Tweedledee instead of the Joker and other D-list villains. Ultimately, it's not the stature of the characters but what the writers do with them -- however, it's pretty clear that the writers have been given the bottom of the barrel for now.

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If true, some very convincing evidence that a cameo is just a “red skies” crossover. … te-earths/

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ireactions wrote:

Anyway. I look forward to seeing Dick Grayson's Aunt Harriet instead of Dick himself, the Puzzler instead of the Riddler, Marsha Queen of Diamonds instead of Catwoman, Egghead instead of R'as Al Ghul, Tweedledum and Tweedledee instead of the Joker and other D-list villains. Ultimately, it's not the stature of the characters but what the writers do with them -- however, it's pretty clear that the writers have been given the bottom of the barrel for now.

Man, if that's true, it's *ballsy* to keep Bruce so front and center in all the plot points.  It's kinda like Season 5 of Sliders focusing so much on saving Quinn (at first) even though they were fairly certain at that point that Jerry wasn't coming back.

If rights weren't an issue, I'd absolutely expect Bruce to show up sometime in the season 1 finale.  Even if they use Bruce like they used Clark in Season 1 of Supergirl, they'd eventually have to have Bruce show up (like, eventually, Clark had to show up).

But we'll see.  It's going to feel pretty lame if Kate's still waiting for Batman to finally come back in Season 5.

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I assume that in some terrible battle, Batman was poisoned with his heart or brain no longer able to cope with the stress of being Batman, and he set off to travel the world, hoping to find a cure. The intention for BIRDS OF PREY, another show where Batman seemingly abandoned Gotham, was to leave it open to later explain that Batman was injured and incapacitated as opposed to having walked out.

What I find really interesting is that the TV show is adapting and, I imagine, seeking to complete a story -- the story of Alice's origins and what happened to her between her supposed death and her reappearance as a terrorist -- that was left unfinished in the comic books. Usually, it's the comic books (or the fan fiction or the novels) that complete the unfinished story in the TV show.

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Really enjoying SUPERGIRL's second episode with some great fight scenes and terrific interpersonal drama and I even liked Alex noting that she barely knows Kelly while Nia realizes that Brainiac is a troublingly obsessive boyfriend. But...

At one point, Lena needs some of the technology within the VR contact lenses, so she... tries to take apart a set to steal the internals and breaches the security and Andrea Rojas proceeds to strip Lena of her lenses and her access to the VR network. Uh.

If Lena needed the tech in the lenses, why didn't she license it? And why is Andrea personally enforcing end-user agreement breaches and punishments? Is Tim Cook going to come to my door if I take apart my iPad? And furthermore, how exactly can Andrea 'ban' Lena from using the VR lenses?

Even if Netflix cancelled my account and took my TV, could they really stop me from creating a new email, opening a new account and buying a new television from Best Buy? Certainly, social media networks have banned alt-right personalities, but that's specific to public figures who depend on their names and notoriety to go about their business on a social media platform. Lena's work was in private.

I don't get it, and SUPERGIRL seems to grant Andrea Rojas a lot of power in-universe -- stipulating that Catco employees can't find journalism jobs elsewhere, declaring that her accessible-to-any-subscriber VR network is now off limits to Lena -- and I don't see how, even in a superhero universe, her power is feasible.

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I don't know a ton about employment law, but I do know that the company I work for restricts employees from going to work for competitors.  I suppose you could have a non-compete clause that's all encompassing of all competitors, but I think your assumption is correct - why would anyone sign such a document?  There's a decent chance people wouldn't read it, but someone would.  And it'd be contested in court, I'd imagine.

My question about the lenses is...why couldn't Lena just go on the market to buy them?  They're readily available.  I think they might've mentioned that she might have some sort of prototype version or an upgraded version, but Lena is smart enough to make whatever adjustments she'd need to make on the retail versions, I'd assume.

Re: Supergirl's costume.  Has she always wanted pants and just....never made them?  Was it in response to Red Daughter's claim that she runs around in a cheerleader skirt?  I understand the real-world reason why they put her in pants, but I don't understand the in-world reason.  She's never once complained about her costume.

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Oh and I really enjoyed the Arrow and Flash episodes this week....but they're both sorta doing the exact same thing.  I think we're all sorta expecting Oliver to die and we're all expecting Barry to I'm not sure why we need two stories of people coming to the realization that they're going to die with their friends begging them to try and change the future.

I did think the Arrow episode was fun...although I don't really see any reason why they're continuing with the future stuff.  Backdoor pilot all you want...bring the future characters into the crossover...but I spent most of the episode wanting to get back to Earth 2.

Also....did Oliver kill Earth-2 Batman?  And where was Earth-2 Robert Queen?

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One nice Easter egg from the Flash episode:

Look at where the red arrow was pointing.  Jay knew Earth 2 was about to be destroyed (which we then immediately saw happen on Arrow).

As for the Batman mask, this article gives a suggestion: … athstroke/

You have to remember that Earth 2 is opposite world.  Batman was likely a villain on Earth 2 and as such stepped into the shoes of Deathstroke.  The Batman mask was likely meant as our first clue that Ollie was on Earth 2.

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But has that been consistent?  Sure, there's a handful of Earth 2 stuff that's backwards (Laurel, Adrian Chase, Malcolm Merlyn sorta, etc), but Barry's Earth 2 double wasn't a bad guy.  And while it could've any Hal, Bruce, and Diana, Barry did have those names on his phone.  And they were presumably who we think they were.

So Batman is potentially an anti-hero or villain, but Barry has him on speed-dial?

(I get that it's a throwaway cowl and a many-years-ago easter egg, but still smile )

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Episodes of THE FLASH established that on Earth 2, Robert Queen, Oliver's father, was the Hood who tried to stop the Undertaking and was exposed on TV in a background news report in Season 2 of THE FLASH. Presumably, Oliver-2 was killed but Robert survived and, on the island, was trained by a stranded Bruce Wayne who performed the same role that Deathstroke did for Oliver. It seems that Robert-2 either went into hiding or was killed after his identity was exposed, but also trained Adrian Chase to carry on for him.

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Yeah the name on the phone could be a different Bruce, I suppose.  Or the mast could've belonged to the Kate Kane of that world.

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Well, Deathstroke survived the island. Anything Deathstroke survived, Batman could as well. Also, given that Deathstroke overcame his insanity, if Batman went insane, he could have recovered from that as well and become (or remained) Barry-2's friend.

The only thing I'm unsure of: why was Malcolm Merlyn unable to defend himself against the Dark Archer/Tommy? I suppose on Earth-2, Malcolm never joined the League of Assassins, never trained to become the Dark Archer, and his timeline diverged from Earth-1 well before Oliver and Robert went missing.

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Yeah, I think this version of Malcolm is just a businessman.

So are we sure that the CW doesn't have more Batman rights than we thought?  Tommy Elliot (Hush) appeared on the show, and they name-dropped the Riddler.  They've also said that Kate was worried that some of Batman's old villains would show up if they thought Batman was back - that might not happen because of the Batwoman reveal, but between what we've seen and what was teased in Elseworlds, I'm interested to see if they'll actually use Batman villains in this show.

I'm also curious how the world of Batwoman works in the comics.  Does she fight Batman's rogues gallery as well as her own?  Does Batman fight her rogues gallery?  Because, like with all the Marvel heroes in New York, it's crazy to me to have separate worlds in the same city.  They'd be crossing each other all the time.