DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max) (Page 26 of 28)

Well, I can think of another way to make it work - bring a plague into the Arrowverse.  Make it an event.  Someone, a minor villain maybe, comes in and spreads some sort of metahuman virus (so wearing a mask wouldn't help and where Kara/Barry could even get it at super speed).  Suddenly, the whole Arrowverse has it.  All the shows can be about how you can be a hero without touching someone.  How you can stay connected while apart.  Stuff like that.

But even then I don't think it'd work.

I don't understand the Crisis/Post-Crisis changes.  So I get that Barry accidentally threw Pied Piper's boyfriend into some sort of weird "unstuck" situation...but did Team Flash never look into helping him?  Barry doesn't remember that timeline, but he was still Barry.  Hartley hates Flash, and helping him clears things back up.  So did Barry not even try?  He didn't have Nash, but Barry wouldn't just abandon someone.

Was Post-Crisis Team Flash less helpful?

That's what been sorta frustrating about "Earth Prime" - it existed and obviously had deviations...but the deviations don't matter because everyone that matters (sorry Pied Piper) has had their memory of Earth 1 (or 36) corrected.

It would be fun to do a "Tales from Earth Prime" episode to show how things were different.  How did Kara and Flash meet?  It can't be the same way it was before.  I assume Superman would've been a part of every "crossover event" and probably a couple of other events. 

Supergirl is another big change.  Some of their storylines were done with the idea that they were on their own.  Did all her storylines happen on Earth Prime?  I mean, heck, is the Obsidian Platinum stuff happening in Central City or Gotham?  It doesn't seem to be happening if it is.

Somebody showed me this deep fake - I think they could pull it off for real!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OJnkJqkyio

Wait, WHAT?

When was it established that Harrison Wells and his doubles were retroactively erased from the past?

When was it established that Jay Garrick was erased from the past?

I don't remember this at all! Maybe I was looking at my phone when this established. What?!!?

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Regarding Batwoman's angst on having taken a life and Curtis informing her that even Batman couldn't stick to that rule 100 per cent of the time and that the Joker is dead -- I am okay with this. In superhero comics, superheroes exist in a highly impressionistic world where human beings seem far more resilient than their real world counterparts. But in live action -- as Informant once pointed out, there is a weight and physical impact to superhero battles that makes it unbelievable that Batman never killed any henchmen when crashing through buildings and throwing people off balconies.

That said, I would prefer that even live action superheroes never set out to intentionally murder anybody and when Kate killed her captive, immobilized prisoner, her prisoner was a man who had warped and broken her sister and was actively tormenting Kate into attacking him with lethal force for the second time. He wanted her to kill him and Kate understandably lost control. I wouldn't give Kate a medal, but I would excuse her for being victimized by a master manipulator who deliberately pushes people into murderous desperation.

Barry killed the Atom Smasher in Season 2, exposing him to lethal doses of radiation and stopping an otherwise unstoppable foe. There was no onscreen discussion about the morality of this.

Superheroes generally don't kill in comics, but that has less to do with morality and more to do with not wanting to kill off villains that writers might like to use next month. BATWOMAN has decided to step into shifting Batman's moral code to being less a requirement and more a preference that sometimes has to be waived. I wouldn't want the comic book characters to do that, but I understand and respect it in live action.

I actually see both sides of this.  The show is playing with the idea that Nash survived and erased all the other Wells from existance.  They're surviving in him (somehow) but they don't "exist"  And if Nash exists, then Harrison Wells couldn't.  However, we *know* that Harrison Wells did exist on Earth Prime - Pied Piper both recognized him and referred to him by name.

My theory - Nash is Nash's memories in the original Harrison Wells' body.  So Wells was "merged" into one person, but the Nash personality is what survived. 

Alternate theory - Since Earth Prime Harrison Wells was dead, a copy of him (Nash) is able to survive on Earth Prime?  So unlike the Beths, one was already dead so everything is fine.

Yeah, I agree.  I wonder if there's a certain pressure from the writers of the Flash to be the "headlining" series.  It's easy for the Flash to be the fun "junior" series when Arrow has dark and brooding taken care of.  These days, Legends has the fun taken care of.  Maybe the Flash feels the need to be dark and brooding like the show that just ended.

I think the writers are going about things the wrong way.  If I were them, I wouldn't have season-long villains.  Because, you're right, you sorta have to make Barry look weak or dumb whenever he can't defeat a single villain.  I don't think Bloodwork or Cicada were necessarily any stronger than Pied Pier or Weather Wizard or Captain Cold...villains that Barry was able to beat in one episode. 

I like the idea of mini-seasons, but I might even go further than that.  Maybe 2-4 episode "blocs" where villains show up, make life difficult for Barry, and after an episode or two, they defeat them.  And I would use the same "villain of the week" villains.

I also think the problem is that speed isn't fun anymore.  Barry sees the Flash as being his job - not being fun.  Speed is a means to save people, not a rush.  They had some fun when Cisco got powers, when Caitlin got powers, when Ralph got powers.  A new Wells every season isn't enough "newness" to have fun.

It's why I would've killed Barry.  Shake the show up.  It's essentially the same cast from season one with a wacky new sidekick and a wacky new Wells.  I think the show could stand to lose 2/3 of Cisco, Wells, and Caitlin.  It may be time to move on from Joe West.  Not because those character are old or stale, but they've done so much with those characters.  If they'd done TF's idea and killed Barry to replace him with Bart (also played by Gustin), then they could've played with a novice speedster on a team led by someone else (Ralph or Cisco or Frost).  Bart could have fun.  There'd be a new side for whoever the leader is.  There could be a new mentoring aspect.

The Flash needed a shakeup.  Still does.

Some news!

Word is that CW won't debut their normal lineups until 2021.  They're going to try and finish Supernatural to air in the Fall, and they've purchased some things (most notably DC Universe's Swamp Thing) to fill the holes.

Flash, Batwoman, and Superman and Lois will debut in the Winter of 2021.  Supergirl will hold until midseason (with Legends) since Melissa Benoist is pregnant.  Nothing on Green Arrow and the Canaries.

I guess with the pandemic, there's less of a chance that people like Kat McNamara will get picked off by other shows, but the longer they don't lock her and the other actors up, the less of a chance this show happens.

Yeah, I hope so too.  I also like the idea of a series that takes place in the future.  We could see how the rest of the arrowverse developed.  What's the future of Team Flash?  Could we see Bart there?  Could we see Terry McGinnis (or if they wanted, Terri McGinnis).

You know more people in that world than me.  I don't know if she'd jump at the chance for another show (or a movie) if she got the opportunity, or if she'd wait for a show she could star in.  Maybe she would...but would everyone?  That's what I always hear about when shows are cancelled - that the actors scramble to find new work.  There's no new work now, I'd imagine, but once there is, I wonder if she'd get swept up.

SPOILERS for the BATWOMAN FINALE

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Whoa, they did it.  They actually cast Bruce Wayne and had him "appear" - I wonder if they actually are able to use Batman.  This is, by far, the closest they've ever come.  They'll have "Bruce" show up next season.  I wonder...

I've been mildly impressed on how the Arrowverse has been able to work to make their final episodes into season finales.  It's clear that there was going to be more in each season, and these are all going to make for interesting "next seasons".  For example, will the Flash be dealing with the new Mirror Master as a season-long villain?  Or will they wrap her story up quickly and move on to their next story?  Same could be said of Batwoman/Alice/War with Kane and Supergirl/Leviathon/Lex.

I guess it shows that most of these shows end on cliffhangers most of the time.  So in essence, it could've worked with any episode they ended on.  But it's interesting...the Walking Dead chose to delay their season finale until it could be completed.  I wonder if that was an option for Flash or Batwoman (it wasn't an option for Supergirl unless Melissa Benoist could work while pregnant).

Um....so Ruby Rose quit Batwoman.

Now *that* is a cliffhanger.

Still something not seen often at all these days.  Very strange.

Personally, I think CW would be better off lobbying WB hard for a Batman show and just cancel Batwoman.  It’s going to be messy trying to work around Ruby’s departure (if it can even be done).

I'm fascinated to see what they do.  If it were me, I'd do what the Avengers did and not reference it.  Ashley Platz seemed to be the second choice and still seems interested in the job on Twitter.  If they go with her (or, to avoid further controversy, a Jewish lesbian actress), I just wouldn't acknowledge it.  The characters would know it's the same character and it'd be up to us as the audience to just accept it.

I think the easy way out (easy meaning a huge sell to WB) would be to just use the Bruce Wayne actor and do a Batman show, but a) it'd be killing off the lead female LGBT actress and b) replacing her with a straight white dude.  The CW is clearly aiming for representation and that isn't it.  As ireactions said, this level of representation and storytelling is important.

My other favorite idea is to, once again, shake things up.  Take a hero from some other show (Cisco, Caitlin, Sara, heck Ray and Nora, Ralph, Jimmy Olsen, Brainiac, etc) and move them onto the Bat team.  Still involves killing Batwoman, but it might be a good story to have a sidekick given the chance to run a team.  You could also bring in another female LGBT character to lead if you don't want to do that.  Or merge it with Green Arrow and the Canaries.  Have Mia come back in time to save Gotham.

I think it's easier for me and other fans to acclimate to Ruby Rose's departure because Batwoman existed even before Ruby Rose played her. And Batwoman fans will continue to like her even after someone else puts on the wig and mask. I'd love it to be Brianna Hildebrand (although she's too young). I was also deeply heartened by Camrus Johnson (Luke Fox) tweeting that he was sorry everyone was so shaken and hurt by Rose's departure, but that BATWOMAN had been renewed for a Season 2 and that all cast and crew would be devoted to making a show that would be a an action-packed superhero showcase for an LGBTQA audience.

An entertainment reporter in my city with a lot of Vancouver crew member friends reported that Ruby Rose was despised by her castmates and the crew as a "sociopathic narcissist" and there are reports that she was late to set for filming or often a no-show leading to stunt and body doubles picking up the slack and a production that was exasperated. Looking at Rose's social media, she seemed to be in bleak spirits after her back surgery, noting that her insurance didn't cover it, that she was in pain afterwards.

But... it doesn't really matter why she left. She's left. I hope she's okay, but unlike the confused dismay and grief and hurt I felt when John and Sabrina and then Jerry left SLIDERS -- I've accepted that while it doesn't help BATWOMAN to lose its Batwoman, it happened, Ruby Rose resigned, but the show was renewed for Season 2 and the show must go on.

Batwoman was Ruby Rose. Batwoman will always be Ruby Rose. But as Johnson subtly implied and as I will say outright: Batwoman is also every young lesbian girl who needs a hero. She is every woman who needs to believe that she can be her own hero. Every non-traditionally feminine woman who needs to see herself reflected in heroes and leaders onscreen.

And while only Ruby Rose could ever be Ruby Rose, there are many women out there who could be militaristic, aloof, passionate, troubled, ferocious, amused, lithe and with the willingness to shear their hair short, walk like a boxer, wear makeup-based tattoos and fight crime in a red wig. And I am looking forward to meeting whoever that woman will be.

I don't know if it will work out this way, but I choose to have faith because despite my issues with the production and scripts and blocking and direction and realization and visuals of the show, I believe in what it has to say to women and girls. I believe in Batwoman.

The original Batwoman was Kathy Kane, introduced in 1956 as a circus performer and a love interest for Bruce Wayne. Her niece, Bette Kane, became Bat-Girl a love interest for Dick Grayson. But in 1967, DETECTIVE COMICS #359 introduced Barbara Gordon as Batgirl with no reference to Kathy or Bette who were not referred to again until 1977 when Kathy Kane briefly came out of "retirement" in BATMAN FAMILY #10 to help Barbara and was then killed off two years later in DETECTIVE COMICS #485. Barbara Gordon had proven popular. Then CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS wiped Batwoman out of existence (but Kathy and Bette Kane remained alive and well and Bette would later take on the identity of Flamebird).

2006's 52 series introduced Kate Kane as a separate character from Kathy Kane and unlike Kathy, Kate is a blood relative of Bruce Wayne on his mother's side (Martha Wayne was born Martha Kane).

In 2011, BATMAN writer Grant Morrison declared that the 2005 reality-warping events of the INFINITE CRISIS crossover had restored every aspect of Batman's continuity since 1939. BATMAN INC. featured flashbacks to all of Batman's adventures with Kathy Kane as Batwoman but from a modern perspective where Batman and Batwoman form a crimefighting family with Bat-Girl, Ace the Bat Hound and Robin -- only for Batwoman to suddenly dump Batman and tell him she doesn't want to become anyone's wife or mother. She is later killed. However, it's later revealed that Kathy was planted by the spy organization Spyral to infiltrate Batman's life; she fell in love with him but the agency threatened to expose Batman's true identity unless she broke up with him and she later faked her own death so he could move on. Kathy returns in the final issue of BATMAN INC. to save Bruce's life and the character now runs Spyral and assists the Batfamily from afar.

It's also revealed that "Kathy Kane" is an alias, chosen to catch Bruce Wayne's attention by being his mother's name.

I don't think this heterosexual version of Batwoman is suited to taking over from the Ruby Rose incarnation and even if she were, it wouldn't work. I suppose you could have Julia Pennyworth become Batwoman, but that wouldn't work either. The generational approach to superheroes has never worked once a bearer of the mantle has become entrenched in popular culture. Barry Allen was not the first Flash, but he solidfied the mythology of the Flash as a science hero and all efforts to replace him with Wally West and Bart Allen and John Fox were ultimately temporary whether intended so or not. Hal Jordan was not the first Green Lantern, but he solidified the mythos as a space police force and all efforts to replace him with John Stewart (Diggle), Guy Gardener and Kyle Rayner failed as well.

Specifically with BATWOMAN -- it can't be done because Season 1 ended on a cliffhanger where Tommy Elliot will impersonate Bruce Wayne to use his relationship with Kate Kane to steal the Kryptonite from Wayne Tower. Kate Kane has an adversarial relationship with Jacob Kane who has declared war on Batwoman. Kate Kane has a troubled mistrust of ex-lover Julia Pennyworth and a guarded secret from ex-lover Sophie and a burgeoning mentorship with Parker Torres and a working partnership with Luke Fox and another one with Mary, all of which are in a state of flux, none of which could possibly be addressed with killing off Kate Kane because Ruby Rose will not return to perform a death scene and using a distantly filmed body double could not address these arcs satisfyingly.

The only route to address all these plots and relationships, and the route that BATWOMAN has chosen, is to find a new actress to play Kate Kane. I imagine they'll need to take some time to re-establish the foundations and fundamentals of the interactions: Kate's mildly adversarial partnership with Luke, Kate's grudgingly tolerant partnership with Mary, Kate's resignation to Parker's presence, Kate's frustration with her father in and out of costume, Kate's longing for Sophie, Kate's discomfort with Julia, Kate's reverence for Bruce -- and they'll want to do that with the new woman in Kate's costume so as to keep the Kate Kane character moving forward. These relationships are too critical to Batwoman's plots to be disposed of by killing Ruby Rose off camera and bringing in Kathy or replacing Kate with Julia.

I think, to let fans and the new actress get to grips with a new face for Batwoman and to pick up on how Tommy Elliot intends to exploit Kate Kane's love for her cousin Bruce, it might help to have BATWOMAN's Season 2 feature (a) flashbacks to a Kate's childhood with Bruce using the child actress who plays the young Kate and (b) have these flashbacks age into the new performer playing Kate Kane. Or to see Batwoman in costume first and unmasked as the new actress second.

Day would be a pretty good fit.  And Krypton was a pretty good show; it wasn’t perfect, but it’s likely as close as we’ll ever get to a well executed, full-on alien side of live action DC (though I did read that Legends is focusing on aliens next season).

I liked Ashley Platz's audition, but I can see why BATWOMAN went with someone else. Platz's performance indicated that her Kate was fundamentally at ease with being an ostracized outsider whereas Rose's performance of the same dialogue conveyed bitterness, frustration, seething outrage and fury. Platz's Kate was completely confident whereas Rose's Kate is perpetually on edge. That said, Platz could certainly change her interpretation.

I don't know anything about Wallis Day's acting ability having seen her in nothing, but if Temporal Flux approves of her and if the BATWOMAN/KRYPTON fandom think she's good, and if she's worked on WB television productions and if she has an existing relationship with the creators and if she's proven she can handle fight scenes and shooting schedules -- well, the fact that she looks a LOT like Ruby Rose shouldn't be the deciding factor. But it would definitely help visually if Kate in Season 2 looks enough like Kate in Season 1 that the viewer will instantly accept slightly different body language and expressions and a different voice if the face smooths over any discrepancies.

My personal choice is Brianna Hildebrand but she's really young. I have, however, seen her act and I can confirm that she would be good in the role and physically similar to Rose and her performance would be adjacent without being all that different. Hildebrand tends to play confidence as dismissive arrogance (like in DEADPOOL as Negasonic Teenage Warhead) whereas Rose played her confidence as shaky bravado. Hildebrand has also played shy, near-mute and geekily awkward in TRINKETS and she has a lot of range.

And if they go the Ashley Platz route of someone who looks nothing like Rose but will provide a strong Kate Kane performance that won't be anything like Rose's interpretation but hit the same points of character, that's good too -- but TV is a visual medium and while I wouldn't choose a bad performer who looks like a Rose-clone, I wouldn't dismiss it either if the lookalike comes with a superb level of craft, talent and skill.

Robert Floyd talked a lot to me about how he followed Jerry O'Connell where there were specific aspects of the scripts he would single out in "The Unstuck Man," "Applied Physics" and "New Gods for Old" where he would make sure to mimic Jerry O'Connell's vocal presence and expressions and mannerisms.

However, he was careful not to merely imitate Jerry as the whole of his performance; instead, he would add Jerry's traits periodically on top of his own interpretation so that it wasn't a photocopy, but Floyd's own take on the character that was informed by Jerry but not enslaved to empty mimicry. The problem with an actor doing an impression, as I'm sure you're wary of, is that it's so focused on imitating that any part of the impression that's off becomes distracting and an impression isn't creation, just approximation.

Realistically -- if they can get an actress who can mimic some of Ruby Rose's mannerisms to lightly include throughout an episode now and then to create some continuity with the original while giving the newcomer her own space, that'd be great. Whether that's Rose's pursed lips and titled head as she cracks a joke or her vaguely Australian accent or her spaced shoulder bearing or her dancer's gait, I'd leave to the performer, but I'd suggest choosing 2 - 3 elements to maintain. And idealistically, if that person looks as much like Ruby Rose as Wallis Day, the physical resemblance would speed up the viewer's acceptance and jump that hurdle immediately rather than gradually.

Whatever route they choose, I'm sure it'll be great. I believe in Batwoman.

Oh. Oh, right. I totally forgot about that. That feels like it happened years ago. Warren Christie. Yes, I see. He has a good look. I've never seen him in anything.

They've really slipped through a loophole; BATWOMAN still does not have the license to use Bruce Wayne on the show. They can use Hush because nobody else wants to use such a no-hope D-list abortion of a character no matter how well Gabriel Mann plays the role and Caroline Dries scripts it. They can only feature Hush impersonating Bruce Wayne. They received a special dispensation for CRISIS to have Kevin Conroy as an older Wayne, but that has expired. That's why, when Kate asked Luke if Bruce would ever return to Gotham, Luke flat out said that Bruce wouldn't be back.

I wrote two and a half pages of script for how BATWOMAN could introduce a new woman as Kate Kane in Season 2, follow up on the Season 1 cliffhanger and jokingly acknowledge that Kate has the face of a stranger.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1say … OIeFs/edit

Someone said something to me about Ashley Platz’s audition — that she acts like homophobia is amusingly beneath Kate and that she’s laughing at the restaurant manager trying to kick her out — and it gives the impression that Platz has never encountered homophobia and only knows it in the abstract. In contrast, Rose conveys all the grief, disgust and fury of someone who has spent her life belittled, abused and punished for her sexuality and is enraged by the invasive bullying.

Part of this may be due to Ashley Platz being bisexual and able to pass for straight, but it’s also because Platz was performing earlier script pages where Kate was more of an upper class socialite than the punk rocker Rose made her.

Every superhero TV news outlet is reporting that a new character will become Batwoman, basing this on a leaked casting notice for a "Ryan Wilder" who will take over from Kate Kane who will not be recast.

https://www.cbr.com/batwoman-new-charac … ruby-rose/

I'm astonished. And I'm also confused as to the sourcing because the source for this is a Reddit posting (now deleted) with this casting notice -- and casting notices are notoriously deceptive, always altering the details to avoid leakage. However, this casting notice is being taken as correct and accurate in declaring that this Ryan Wilder character will replace Ruby Rose's Kate Kane as Batwoman. There is no other source for this information other than the deleted Reddit post. There is no statement from the studio or creative team. There is only the Reddit posting of a casting notice for a new character who will be the new Batwoman.

Yet, The Hollywood Reporter and Entertainment Weekly seem to think this is accurate, so maybe they know something I don't?

If this is true -- and I don't know if it is because leaked casting sheets are generally unreliable and meant to obscure actual details -- this doesn't make sense. I know you weren't watching BATWOMAN, but the show is very carefully structured around Kate Kane and her relationships while living in the shadow of Bruce Wayne, her childhood confidante and friend. With the end of the truncated first season, all of Kate's arcs were up in the air: she reveres Bruce Wayne and is trying to live up to him and is about to be exploited by a villain who is impersonating Bruce and plans to exploit Kate's relationship with the real Bruce Wayne. She is engaged in a battle of wills with her twin sister, Alice. She is, in her Batwoman identity, at war with her father, Jacob Kane, the leader of Gotham City's primary law enforcement agency, the Crows, who have declared Batwoman an enemy of Gotham. She is dismayed to learn that her ex-girlfriend, Sophie, has started dating Kate's other ex-girlfriend, Julia. She is struggling to reconcile a schism with Luke Fox, her tech support worker and her main connection to the legacy of an absent Batman. She has welcomed a troubled teenaged girl into the Batcave. She is contending with a mass escape from Arkham Asylum.

If BATWOMAN opens with a new person as Batwoman and Kate Kane just gone, all these arcs are effectively jettisoned. There is no reason to maintain the existing cast as they were on the show due to their relationship with Kate Kane. It makes no sense not to simply recast Kate; by throwing away the character, the show is dismissing the fans they already have and the arcs they spent a whole season building, arcs they could sustain and continue and resolve if they just found themselves another Kate. Ruby Rose is a unique performer, but she is only a performer.

Also, the generational replacement tactic has never worked and wouldn't work here when the show is so defined by Kate's relationships and arcs, all of which ended in a state of flux. There would be no exit story for Kate; she'd have vanished without closure. The villain of Alice, defined by her sisterly bond and enmity with Kate, would have no reason to exist. Sophie and Julia, Kate's exes and allies, would have no reason to be around. The Kate Kane character captured the imagination of the public long before Ruby Rose played her; it is crazy to think that the TV show can just throw some new name and character into the suit and expect that to have the same stature and meaning; it'd be like expecting the Inhumans to replace the X-Men.

I think that this is a huge mistake if it's even true, and I don't know if it's true because it makes no sense to me that the CW would allow this news to be leaked in a casting sheet to be posted on Reddit where the story was first reported. If the story is true, I think it at least has to be incomplete because this is a route where BATWOMAN would effectively alienate its existing audience and seriously overcomplicate its own narrative for no upside whatsoever. Losing Ruby Rose put BATWOMAN in a hole. Refusing to recast her is just digging in deeper.

It's crazy. And because the CW and Greg Berlanti and Caroline Dries and the Arrowverse gang aren't prone to self-sabotaging their own properties, I assume this isn't the whole story.