Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Informant wrote:

Ugh. Andy should have stayed dead.

I just don't get why you would disable a character if you didn't plan to do anything with it. It makes no sense to me. Injuries add texture and depth to a story, like adding rain to a scene. I don't know what they were thinking.

I agree on both of those points.  But Andy's alive, and I think if they wanted to kill Diggle, now is the time they can do it.  Andy can step in and be a surrogate father, and he can find redemption in fighting his brother's fight.

As far as the Felicity stuff, I agree there too.  I don't think the paralysis story did anything, but at least this time (unlike Oliver's death), they gave some sort of explanation.  Oliver's death is one of the more mind-boggling storylines I've ever seen.  I'm still not 100% what happened there.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

If they do end up killing someone major (and I still have my doubts that they will. I think Quentin is as major as they'd risk, since they've shown how unwilling they are to mess with the formula), I think they should leave the space empty on the team. It's a large team already, so they don't necessarily need anyone else.

But I hope it's not Diggle. It's nice to have a tough, capable man around. The problem is, Laurel and Thea are both (more or less) characters from the comic books that they'd have a hard time killing off.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Informant wrote:

But I hope it's not Diggle. It's nice to have a tough, capable man around.

Well that's why I'd like it to be him.  It'd make Oliver so much more vulnerable, and it'd make the stakes so much higher.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Agreed. I think the same could be accomplished by killing Felicity. But that won't happen.

Killing Diggle would suck. He has a family. I would rather just see him walk away from that life and city.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

No, I get that.  And you'd have to battle the whole "absentee black father thing."  And he's a great character and a cool actor....listen, it's never going to happen smile

Although it's funny, I brought this up to a black nerd friend of mine, and he's plugged in with all the "blerd" community on social media, and he said a ton of black nerds would quit watching the show if Diggle died.  Even if he was replaced by both Andy and Curtis on Team Arrow.  That's how much he means to them.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I never got the whole "if this happens, I'm never watching again" mentality. Olicity fans scream the line every time they have a fight. I'm all for twists that I don't think I'll like, as long as they're well considered and well written.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I mean I certainly have favorite characters on shows that I'd hate if they died.  You see it a lot with Walking Dead fans, but those things are usually because the show is so bad and only one character is any fun.  The problem there is that they're so afraid of killing any of their characters that now all of the main characters are basically invincible.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Last night's Legends was by far the worst of the series at this point. It was like there was a checklist of 1950's cliches that they had to get through, which left no room for story or putting logic into the character's actions. It was annoying.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Haven't watched it yet, but I did see there was a Smallville reference.  Savage went by Curtis Knox, which was the name of the character on Smallville (played by Dean Cain) who was basically Vandal Savage.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Interesting. I knew the name sounded familiar, but I couldn't place it.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I still wish they'd find a way to include Smallville in the Arrowverse mulitverse.  Even if it was just an easter egg, I think it belongs.  It paved the way for DC shows on TV.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

The episode was okay.  What's strange is how they kept forcing situations that they knew would be awkward.  There's no reason why they needed to press issues like interracial dating/marriage when it wasn't necessary to any plan.  I know the show wants to be progressive, but it put Jackson and Kendra in unnecessary danger.

Alan Sepinwall noted that they separate Jackson and Stein as quickly as possible because Firestorm can handle pretty much any problem the team can face.  Now it's all I can think about.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Slider_Quinn21 wrote:

Alan Sepinwall noted that they separate Jackson and Stein as quickly as possible because Firestorm can handle pretty much any problem the team can face.  Now it's all I can think about.

What they should have done is something like a unfinished plotline in the comics from before the New 52 started.  The idea was that the Firestorm matrix had become unstable; and every time they turned into Firestorm it was burning seconds on the countdown clock until Firestorm would go thermonuclear and kill himself and everyone around him.  They could have instituted the concept after Stein had already committed to the time trip and it was too late to go back home.

I believe making Firestorm use dangerous would have been a better way to limit his appearances.

I haven't watched all of the latest episode yet, but I did have a thought about Heatwave.  What if he and Cold are playing a long game to steal the time ship?  They mentioned at the start that this was their goal; and if Cold is able to continue gaining trust with Rip, he may get an opportunity to gain control of the ship.  It would be interesting and redeeming to Leonard and Mick's villainy if they turn out to be the true villains of the series in the final episodes after Savage is defeated.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I'd like to see Smallville added to the multiverse too. Hopefully that can still happen. I really love the way that they opened the door to these bizarre crossovers, without sacrificing the integrity of their own story. Allison Mack could show up as Chloe Sullivan for a few episodes, and it would still make sense. That's pretty cool.

Unfortunately, they're choosing to use this power for evil, by crossing over to Supergirl. smile

I agree about them putting Kandra and Jackson in unnecessary situations. They did it because they wanted to play every single racism/homophobia angle that they could possibly play. But that motivation was wrong. I was thinking about it, and I started to wonder how many stories we've seen set in the 20's, 30's or 40's, with such heavy-handed issue handling. I don't know what it is about the 50's, but they always make that the most racist, despicable decade when they show it on TV shows. Does it have to do with rebelling against the society that the Greatest Generation built when they came home from war, or is there something else that I'm missing?

Kendra would have made much more sense as the nurse. Sara would have made much more sense as the wife. And for that matter, Sara could have gone over to talk to the high school girl without drawing any attention to herself. The whole episode was forced and clunky.


I like the idea of making the Firestorm matrix unstable. They could explain that something is a little off with the Stein/Jax connection, which was more stable with Ronnie. There is usually tension between them, so it would be interesting to play that as part of their unstable matrix.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

TemporalFlux wrote:

I haven't watched all of the latest episode yet, but I did have a thought about Heatwave.  What if he and Cold are playing a long game to steal the time ship?  They mentioned at the start that this was their goal; and if Cold is able to continue gaining trust with Rip, he may get an opportunity to gain control of the ship.  It would be interesting and redeeming to Leonard and Mick's villainy if they turn out to be the true villains of the series in the final episodes after Savage is defeated.

That's a great theory, and it'd definitely make my concerns about Snart obsolete.  It could even be part of the reason for a continuation of this storyline if they don''t go the anthology route.  They steal the timeship, and they start messing with things.  The Time Lords send a team (made up of some of these guys, maybe some new guys) to fix the damage.  That would probably be enough for a season's worth of story.

LoT was renewed.  Has anyone seen anything about how they plan to structure it?

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Not sure exactly what will happen, but Savage will probably be gone. Not sure how much of the cast will be held onto.
http://screenrant.com/dc-legends-tomorr … mparisons/

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

BTW, I meant to ask.  In modern continuity, does red kryptonite just make Kryptonians evil?  Or does it still have mystery effects?

Or did Supergirl just go the Smallville route with their use of it?

And.....again.....Clark should've shown up.  Even if he didn't know what was happening.  Even if she told him to stay away and he respected that....she was out of control.  For the sake of humanity, he needed to show up.  I'm starting to think the show would've been better off taking place in Metropolis following Clark's fight with Doomsday.  So he's not in the background.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Red Kryptonite, in the comics, has completely random effects. It might turn Superman transparent or make him evil or whatever and wears off after a day or so. In LOIS & CLARK, it made Superman apathetic. SMALLVILLE and SUPERGIRL seem to be using the same playbook.

Melissa Benoist continues to amaze as an actress. It's easy to forget that her goofy, dorky persona is a performance until you see a flash of crazy, demonic rage such as when she fought Red Tornado or came out of the simulation -- but Red!Kara was almost unrecognizable in demeanor and temperament and she scared the hell out of me.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Okay, that's what I thought.  It seems like the Berlanti regime respects the Smallville era - there have been quite a few references thrown in.  I'd still love to have an official tie-in somehow.

And I agree.  I still think Supergirl is a pretty fun show.  Looking forward to the crossover with the Flash.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Is it weird that I liked Supergirl more when she was under the influence of red K? It was nice to see some personality that wasn't just Clark, even if it was still based on a version of Clark.

The show would be more interesting if she had a little more edge to set her apart.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

*shudders*

Red!Kara terrified me. I cowered under my blanket when she swaggered into the nightclub and nearly crushed Jimmy's hand. It just freaked me out. A lot. I watched AMERICAN HORROR STORY without flinching, but this was just disturbing.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Really? I mean, aside from doing the obviously bad things, I kinda liked her that way. There is really no reason why Kara shouldn't be strong and capable in her daily life. Taking down Siobhan wasn't evil, it was the work of someone who wasn't afraid to get rid of the person who is trying to destroy Kara and undermine Cat. I loved it when Siobhan cowered out of the place and Kara made a snappy comment to her. THAT is the Kara that I want to see around, not someone who is pretending to be shy and nervous and constantly pushing up her glasses.

I remember reading some Supergirl comic books a while back and thinking that she reminded me of Buffy. She was strong, but had a sense of humor and youth that she wasn't ashamed of, which set her apart from Superman.

I mean, yeah, throwing Cat off of a building was a bit much and letting the alien go shouldn't happen. I think there would be a nice middle ground somewhere.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

It was the nightclub scene that really creeped me out. Kara was so indifferently cruel and unnervingly predatory towards James and spoke with a casual cruelty about Lucy and Jimmy's breakup. It scared me. It was like Faith from BUFFY in Season 3 - 4 at her most deranged and homicidal.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Yeah, that was bad. I am just not a fan of "James" Olsen, so I didn't mind it much. There is just nothing right about that character. He is a boring, lifeless, cookie-cutter love interest character who is undeserving of his iconic name. I can't tell how whether Mehcad is a bad actor or just has a crappy role to play.

Though it contradicts my opinion of Kara, I did think that Melissa did a nice job with the aftermath. Her breaking down was nicely played... But I would still prefer her to have a back bone regularly.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I know, intellectually, that Kara's geeky, awkward nervousness is a performance. It's not Melissa's real voice, posture, bearing or facial expressions -- but to me, it doesn't come off as a performance, it's just Kara's natural behaviour. When she's in costume, she's still Kara -- she's just a version of Kara who isn't struggling with her interpersonal dilemmas, and the interactions she has with others are largely restricted to their grateful praise or homicidal malevolence. Which is why, whenever that persona drops, I'm really disturbed. But I take it you don't like Melissa's performance at all?

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I don't have anything against her necessarily, I just hate how the character is written. I think the show is an uninspired waste of potential.

This week, we saw a glimpse of Kara's younger years. I wish they focused more on that. Not like a Smallville clone, but more of her struggle as an alien in this strange place. Learning the language, learning how to speak it without an accent, learning the culture while mourning for the loss of her own. I don't get the sense that the writers love Supergirl because she is being forced into this Superman-shaped hole. It's the same with Arrow. After season 2 was over and Slade was gone, it's like the writers got bored by how much Oliver isn't Batman.

The Flash and Legends feel like the writers are having so much more fun and are excited to be there. Same with Gotham.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Something I had forgot to remark on, but the latest episode of Flash had Jessie leaving for Opal City; it could be just an Easter egg, or it could be a set up for something more.

Opal City is the home of Starman who had powers somewhat akin to Green Lantern but based on technology; he was originally an Earth 2 character who fought alongside Jay Garrick in the Justice Society.  After Starman became an old man, he passed along his equipment to his more respectable son only to see him shot and killed on his first outing as a hero.  The more rebellious son then took up the mantle in his own counter-culture style, and it went on to become a really great comic based in both science and mysticism.

One of the main characters in the book was The Shade - an old Jay Garrick villain who was possessed by some kind of shadow entity that fell from the stars.  While giving The Shade the power to manipulate shadow into solid forms, it also made him immortal and thus hundreds of years old in present day.

In any case, Opal has many ties to Earth 2 and even Jay Garrick, so I'm thinking we'll be seeing much more of that.  This version of Starman was also considered to become a tv series for ABC many years ago, but ultimately they passed on it.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I'm looking forward to reading STARMAN at some point. It's in the queue. I knew of STARMAN and Opal City by reputation. It was nice to see proper references to the DC Universe. It's a nice change from the SMALLVILLE days where they would mess up their references to the comics, like referring to Edge City (which is actually the city in THE MASK).

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Jessie becomes a speedster too, right?

130 (edited by Slider_Quinn21 2016-03-28 23:29:52)

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

The Supergirl/Flash crossover worked really, really well.  I thought it was great.  The way the fight ended was super cheesy, but most of the Barry/Kara scenes were pretty great.  I also thought it was a bit silly how he ended up in the Supergirl universe, and I thought it was a bit silly that they assumed running fast would send him back.  But, oh well, it was worth it.

I do wonder if it's going to have any impact on the Arrowverse.  Will Barry try and look for alien life?  Will Kara ever reference the Flash again?

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I'm not a Felicity hater, but the team was so much more fun with Curtis in the "Overwatch" role.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Slider_Quinn21 wrote:

I do wonder if it's going to have any impact on the Arrowverse.  Will Barry try and look for alien life?  Will Kara ever reference the Flash again?

I know that one of the producers has said that Barry's trip to Kara's Earth will be referenced in an upcoming episode of The Flash. The production team wasn't able to nail down exactly when the Supergirl episode would air (different networks) in order to make it tie in directly. I expect it won't be more than a throw away remark.

Ex-member

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

DieselMickyDolenz wrote:
Slider_Quinn21 wrote:

I do wonder if it's going to have any impact on the Arrowverse.  Will Barry try and look for alien life?  Will Kara ever reference the Flash again?

I know that one of the producers has said that Barry's trip to Kara's Earth will be referenced in an upcoming episode of The Flash. The production team wasn't able to nail down exactly when the Supergirl episode would air (different networks) in order to make it tie in directly. I expect it won't be more than a throw away remark.

I would guess we'll see the reference in the next Flash episode.  I notice that this week's ep reintroduced us to the device Flash was wearing on his chest when he arrived on Supergirl's earth.  Flash doesn't usually keep us waiting on use of plot devices.

As for future references, I'm sure they'll throw something in on the rare occasion, but they'll probably focus on just doing more crossovers.  In the end, Flash also has a built in way to permanently get all the toys in one box - that future newspaper headline that mentioned the red skies.  During the Crisis on Infinite Earths, those red skies were actually the bleed between universes as the walls of reality were starting to break down.  With most of the multiverse destroyed, the final remaining earths merged together to form a single prime reality.

This could happen with the Supergirl / Arrowverse / Earth 2, etc realities if CBS decides to let it happen.  The universe merger certainly had a great many hiccups in the aftermath, though; but that just gives story to explore.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Well, Alan Sepinwall had a great point.  Supergirl's numbers jumped when Flash was on board.  Meaning that CW fans came over to watch Barry on Supergirl.  In other words, CBS (the #1 network) depended on the CW to boost their ratings.  That's simply incredible, and it shows how the CW has really done well in terms of producing original programming.  They really took advantage of the superhero craze, and the other networks either failed to take advantage or simply failed when they tried.

And I'd like to see more crossovers.  What's interesting is the complete lack of overlap in the two universes.  If Kara or Clark exist in the Arrowverse (and Rip Hunter implied Superman exists), then they haven't made themselves public.  And they flat-out said that Flash, Green Arrow, and Black Canary don't exist in Supergirl's universe.  Not only that, but none of the Flash cast existed. 

I know it was done to avoid more crossovers in that episode (because Barry would use Team Flash to get home instead of Team Kara), but it is interesting that they've basically set up a Venn Diagram where nothing really crosses over.  Although I gotta think that Kara looked up Barry on her earth, and Barry looked up Kara when he got home.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

There were parts of the crossover that were fun. The goofy interaction was enjoyable, and Kara had more chemistry with Barry than pretty much anyone else on the show. Having him there exposed a lot of the show's weaknesses, because it was awkward to see him in something so far beneath the quality of his own show. The writing and directing were horrible. It felt like a last minute attempt to save the show, which has failed to reach the level of acclaim of the other DC shows, and which hasn't yet been renewed. It didn't feel like a real event crossover, as it should have.

I wouldn't mind seeing Kara show up on The Flash if her show is cancelled (like Constantine did on Arrow) but if they did that, they should use Melissa to bring in Power Girl, and avoid having to rebuild this version of Supergirl from scratch. Though they could use her if they get to the Crisis point in the story.


Legends took some risks this week, after the first 1950's episode completely failed to hit the mark. It was a really interesting episode, having three characters stranded for two years and revealing Rory to be Chronos. It makes me think that they will be switching up the cast next year, but we will see.

Arrow was horrible. So, so horrible. They took one of the worst Flash villains and put her on Arrow, and made the plot revolve around a silly McGuffin that shouldn't exist in the first place, for so many reasons.
I agree that the team was better without Felicity. I don't necessarily like the Curtis character too much, but at least he isn't a whiny, annoying, self righteous, horrible CEO, which Felicity has become.


The Flash was really interesting. Barry changed the past. How does that alter his present? How can he live in a world that he knows is wrong? I know that technically, his entire timeline was wrong to begin with, but the world he knows is essentially gone now. He is like Quinn Mallory seeing his dead father walk through the door.
It's interesting that Sara messed with her past too, on Legends this week, but those changes were used to create the timeline that she already knows.


So question... Will Talia be used in the future, or was her introduction just a wink to the audience?

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Okay, let me try and tackle all that.

SUPERGIRL - I agree that Kara had better chemistry with Barry than anyone on her show.  While that's a problem, it's not necessarily a huge problem.  I think Melissa hit a high point with her character (she was so much fun), and they just need to channel that with the existing characters.  As far as success goes, on TV Line's Renewal Scorecard, Supergirl was recently upgrade from "A Safe Bet" to "A Sure Thing."  He's usually right so there'll be a renewal.

LEGENDS - I liked the Chronos reveal too.  Once again, a season-long baddie ends up being a former hero, but that just seems to be par for the course in the Arrowverse.  I liked this last episode a lot, and I think it did much better than the previous 1950s episode.  The whole 2-year thing was pretty cool, and it'll be interesting to see how it affects Ray, Kendra, and Sara.  Regarding the cast for next year, Michael Ausiello (TV Line again) said that he doesn't believe there will be a wholesale change in the cast to season two.  So it won't be an anthology series....which is both fine and disappointing.

ARROW - You still hate this show more than I do.  I thought this last episode was pretty good.  I don't love Curtis either, but he was fun like Felicity used to be.  And it seems like we'll find out who's in the grave this week.

FLASH - The past was changed but not really.  I think we're supposed to believe that Hartley is supposed to be the biggest change.  Outside of that, Barry didn't change much.  Thawne knows, but I think Barry covered that.  The team knows, but they know not to mess with history too much.  Not much else was changed, was it?

TALIA - Well, Talia would be way older, right?

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

With Supergirl... I think it will probably be renewed, but the network definitely isn't as happy with it as they'd like to be. It wasn't included with the early renewals, which is telling. But more than that, the Flash crossover tells me that they were looking for a boost from a fan base that they don't see tuning in. The show isn't generating much heat.

I don't think that Legends necessarily needs to have a full overhaul of the cast, but I'd like to see some swapping out each season. Stein is married. He needs to go home (while remaining a part of this overall universe).

It's isn't really that I hate Arrow, it's just that I don't feel like the writers are present there. It irritates me when solid potential is wasted. I liked seeing Laurel and Oliver showing an actual friendship. It makes sense, and it always seemed awkward when they weren't closer (usually because they were trying to force Oliver to interact with Felicity all the time).
I don't really care who is in the grave at this point. By that, I mean that the buildup was useless. It was a waste of time, because there were no clues and none of the mystery had a purpose. I would hate to see a couple of the characters die. I'd be upset if they killed Laurel, because Black Canary isn't a throwaway character. I'd be upset if they kill Diggle or Thea. Other than that... they have killed Oliver and it meant nothing, so they have to earn back the emotional response. My prediction is that it will be someone who doesn't really matter. Curtis' husband, Alex, Donna or even Quentin don't really matter.


Barry discovered time travel much earlier on The Flash now. Has he used it more than before? They could pretty much use that change to alter anything. Ronnie could walk through the door next week and it could be explained with a shrug and "Time travel!"

Talia would be older, but she might not look older. She could be Ruve Darhk... but would that be too much?

138 (edited by ireactions 2016-04-04 16:01:02)

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

SUPERGIRL's main problem is that it makes choices that are mutually exclusive. The creators wanted Kara to be in her late 20s and gainfully employed, but they also wanted Kara as socially undeveloped individual who doesn't know how to use her powers. They wanted Kara working at a newspaper, but they also wanted her working in an espionage agency. They wanted Kara to have a secret identity, but they also wanted to surround Kara with a supporting cast who are all in on the secret. They wanted a football player type love interest, but they wanted that love interest to be Jimmy Olsen.

I think Informant would agree that writing is about choices. Either Supergirl is an adolescent or an adult, a journalist or a spy, a loner or a team player. The show tries to do both and it just gets confused -- Kara has to hide her identity, but everyone knows it. She's had her powers for years, but isn't sure she's bulletproof. She's got government black ops access to information, but she's basically an intern at her job. She wants to work in journalism, but she never writes stories and works as a gofer. It's like there were two different pitches for SUPERGIRL -- Kara Danvers, the college student interning at Catco who feels compelled to fight crime and Kara Danvers, secret agent and superheroine -- and they smashed the two together.

The crossover episode was a very nice script that was very awkwardly executed. The climax is bizarre: there is almost no footage of all the civilians and Kara in the same shot, so the sense is that the people and the superfight are footage from two different locations stitched together.

The shot of Livewire and Silver Banshee suddenly getting electroshocked has no visual information to explain why they're suddenly going down. The firemen appear out of nowhere and the low-angle shot suggests that the fireman was actually introduced earlier in a cut scene -- the composition would imply you're supposed to recognize the character as opposed to seeing a stranger.

It's almost as though footage was lost or unfilmed for some reason and the editors had to put the sequence together with shots of extras, close-ups of Benoist and a few shots of Livewire and Banshee being defeated by some off-camera force -- and do without scenes of the firemen arriving, Supergirl surrounded by the people in the park, the water hitting Livewire and Banshee with Supergirl and the people in the same frame, etc..

Did they get kicked out of the park early or something? Did an actor get sick? Was there a hard drive crash? Something clearly went wrong during production.

EDITED TO ADD: Oh. The fireman was in the Red Kryptonite episode in which Kara saved him. Well. I stand by my reasoning.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Agreed.  It is hard to believe that this show is produced by the same people as The Flash or Legends.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

It's not always the writers and producers. CBS might say they don't want a youth show; it has to be adults. The studio might have a relationship with certain actors they want and require the series to write in a football player type as the lead love interest. The studio might declare it's vital that Supergirl be working with an establishment agency while the network wants a supporting cast of attractive people who hang out and therefore all need to be in on the secret. It's hard to say. The truth is that the CW is remarkably open-minded these days; a lot of networks might take issue with the distinctly non-model looking Grant Gustin as a lead character or demand that Caitlin be seen in the shower once a week.

You never know. Best we can do is review the aired product.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

That is true, but a lot of the weaknesses are just in the writing and directing. There is no excuse for having Alex shouting Kara's secret in a public place.

A lot of writing for television involves finding ways to work with what you have. You can't just throw your hands up and blame the network for every little thing.

Though to be fair, CBS does have remarkably bad shows. They must be messing things up somewhere.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I actually agree with all that.  Kara's character doesn't make a whole lot of sense.  And another one - they want Superman to be a presence in the show, but they don't want him to be in the show.  They want it to sorta be in the DCCU but also be its own thing.  Which leads to a ton of problems.  When Kara goes evil, Clark is either trusting J'onn to do what was necessary to save National City, or he's allowing the 2nd/3rd most powerful being on the planet to run amok.

I'm not sure I could give you five reasons why I like Supergirl.  I just think it's enjoyable to watch smile

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Sometimes, it's enough to like the cast of a show. As much as I've had issues with Arrow lately, I do like the cast a lot. I want the show to be better for them.

In the crossover, it was fun to see Kara's reaction to Barry. Her reaction to getting the ice cream. The fun of it. I think that's an interesting element for the character. She could be fun and happy and enjoy this life, but the world they've put her in doesn't allow for that. She is either being yelled at by a boss that she's scared of, or she is stuck in a poorly lit cave, surrounded by super soldiers. This is the problem with the show. They've tried to make her something that she isn't, and the character is rejecting the story. Sadly, being a CBS show likely means that there will be no drastic changes to the formula, so this is what she is stuck with for the rest of the series.

There were times when I was reading the Supergirl comics that I thought she acted a lot like Buffy Summers. She was a badass, but she was also fun and quirky. The show would be so much better if they did away with the government element and put Kara into a world where she could have some fun. I'm not saying that it has to be a comedy, but there isn't much that can hurt her. She's already lost everything she loved. She watched her home blow up. The worst things imaginable are already in her rear view mirror. She should either be more traumatized and messed up, or she should lighten up and be fun. I'm just not sure how I'd go about restructuring the series at this point. It would probably require a massive cast overhaul. I'd get rid of the DEO entirely. Martian Manhunter would be cut back to an occasional guest star (he can't stay on the show as he is. He is too big of a character to be a supporting character to a secondary superhero). I'd ditch Jimmy. He just doesn't work on the show. And Lucy would go too.
There might be a way to stay at CatCo, but I'm not sure how. Kara needs to stop living Clark's life, so how would she go about doing that while remaining at a massive media outlet?

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Informant wrote:

Sadly, being a CBS show likely means that there will be no drastic changes to the formula, so this is what she is stuck with for the rest of the series.

It could be worse.  It could be a FOX show, and Kara could be police consultant.  Like every show on their network.

I'm just not sure how I'd go about restructuring the series at this point.

I think it'd take an incident where Alex is killed.  Maybe with J'onn responsible.  So he goes off on his own (sorta like his arc on Justice League Unlimited) to live among the humans.  And because Kara truly has lost everyone (I assume Dean Cain stays/is dead at this point too).  So she goes off on her own.  Leaves CatCo and National City and does her own thing.  Maybe have her travel the country like Supernatural for a year before she settles somewhere else.  Or maybe she goes on some season-long journey as part of her job at CatCo so Winn and James could continue to guest star.

Other than that, I think the status quo will continue.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I don't know... Isn't the DEO just a super fancy police department for aliens? And technically, she is just a consultant there, since she isn't an agent and gets no money from it. So... Yeah, it is pretty much every procedural on TV, with an S on the chest.

146 (edited by Slider_Quinn21 2016-04-05 00:24:02)

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Well, on FOX, it would actually be her working with a policeman.  Both as her regular job and her secret job.  Jimmy would've quit his job as a photographer to work as a cop in National City (because that's what his dad was or something).  And Kara would be an expert on alien life or something, and they'd solve cases together.  Like Minority Report.  And Lucifer.  And Almost Human.  And Sleepy Hollow.  And this new Houdini and Doyle show.  And so on and so on and so on.

But, yeah, I see what you mean.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Slider_Quinn21 wrote:
Informant wrote:

I'm just not sure how I'd go about restructuring the series at this point.

I think it'd take an incident where Alex is killed.

This is pretty much the attitude of Sony towards AMAZING SPIDER-MAN. It never works. Yes, SUPERGIRL made mistakes out the gate where it needed to choose A or B and it chose both. But what's done is done. Rather than try to turn SUPERGIRL into a different show, it would be best to identify the strengths of this mis-mash and make the best of it now. Retooling at this point would only deepen the creative dissonance. What works about SUPERGIRL?

The cast is superb: Melissa Benoist, Chyler Leigh and David Harewood have terrific chemistry, Benoist bouces off Mechad Brooks and Jeremy Jordan nicely, Callista Flockhart is a good foil.

While there are filming issues, the superpowers are for the most part well rendered. The costume and flying effects are terrific, the fight sequences, outside of odd lapses, come off well. It's the superhero action show SMALLVILLE wasn't.

The tone is appealing. This show embraces the goofy, earnest fun of superheroes and presents Supergirl's morality and compassion as intrinsic to her nature and reflective of the potential of all human beings to behave responsibly and well.
Humour: the scripts are full of fun jokes and great wisecracks.

Legacy: the show is respectful of SUPERMAN's cinematic and televisual history, casting Helen Slater and Dean Cain in major roles, and also reflects familiar for the source material with its use of the Martian Manhunter, Toyman, Silver Banshee, etc..

What does not work? I would say that the problem is not that SUPERGIRL doesn't work; it's that all the aspects that work well also work in opposition to each other. Supergirl is a determined and easily intimidated little bookworm of a thrillseeker who works as an intern at a media agency as a highly placed agent of a top secret government agency who is in her late twenties but has no experience dating, making friends, holding down a job or using her powers and has feelings for geek icon Jimmy Olsen who is played by a six foot tall basketball player type.

.................................

I think the only option here is to turn into the swerve. First, it's time to move Winn. When you have Jimmy, you don't need another male friend at Catco, but since the actor's on contract, relocate him to the DEO and make him Alex's associate more than Kara's.

Second, Mehcad Brooks is Jimmy Olsen, deal with it. It's time to shift him from being on the executive staff at Catco to someone whose role is working the streets of National City, gathering stories that will lead to the grounded, ordinary people plots of episodes while Winn and Alex serve the fantasy plots. When Jimmy wanders into a DEO plot, the show should highlight how he feels like he's stumbled into a different TV series.

Third, I think the dissonance in Supergirl should be embraced as representing the schizophrenic nature of Supergirl's life. The series should develop three distinct and separate visual styles: crisp, still filming for the DEO/fantasy plots and documentary style camerawork for the mundane side of the series at Catco. For Season 2, Kara can develop multiple personality disorder as a result of the schism and the show really mine that for drama rather than pretend it doesn't exist.

For better or worse, this is SUPERGIRL. Attempting to turn it into a different show at this stage would just make a bigger mess; one might as well just cancel the series and do a reboot and there's no need to do that. There's plenty to enjoy with SUPERGIRL. SUPERGIRL could be a lot worse.

It could be an ugly, nasty series like GOTHAM or take itself far too seriously like the first 13 episodes of ARROW or be crassly objectifying like Seasons 2 - 7 of SMALLVILLE or be incapable of rendering superheroes like LOIS & CLARK or be a depressing bore like BATMAN VS. SUPERMAN or be witlessly self-important like that WONDER WOMAN pilot or be visually inept like the first 13 episodes of SUPERBOY or be unable to choose a tone like PUNISHER WAR ZONE.

The tone of SUPERGIRL is good. The spirit of the series is strong. The details just need some selective refinement. Choices must be made.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I tend to agree.  I was trying to think of a way to reinvent the series, but I'm still enjoying it as is.  When Info pointed out the duplicity in the series, I nodded because he's right.  But I also haven't really noticed it because I enjoy watching it.  I watched "World's Finest" the night it aired because I was *excited* to see what they'd do with him.  And I smiled the whole time watching it because Kara and Barry looked like they were having such a great time working together.

If we never get another crossover, Supergirl is going to have a place in the Arrowverse.  And that's cool.  Kara, and by connection, Clark is now in the universe started by Oliver Queen.  That's awesome.  But Supergirl isn't like Constantine - I don't see it as a failure that needs to be reabsorbed by the CW.  There's things that Supergirl does better than its cousin's shows on the CW.  And I'd love to see it continue so that we can get Stephen Amell over on CBS and Melissa Benoist on the CW.

For the record, the idea of killing Alex made me sad.  I think she's a good character.  And I think that's why I picked her - she's the one who would need to die to shake up the show show.  Killing off anyone else wouldn't do the job.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I don't think the DEO stuff works at all. I think that, like ARGUS, it would be okay to have them exist and sometimes work with Supergirl, but having her work with them all the time isn't right. There is a reason why Superman isn't a member of the military. It's because having someone like that work as a government agent is a scary thought. It's one thing to have the flag waving behind Superman, but it would mean something else entirely to have him marching under the President's orders. He is the everyman, not "the man". So, I strongly believe that they need to go. And honestly, the soldiers running around in the background as Kara fights bad guys are just silly. The whole thing is just there because every CBS show needs a poorly lit, techie looking facility where the walls are lined with flat screens.

So if I were executive producing the series, I would get rid of that facility. I'd have Alex leave them behind and go into a more intellectual field (it is ridiculous to have her act as a soldier next to Kara). Maybe with the mystery of her father solved, Alex can let go of her anger and go work for a university or a tech company or something.

J'onn can't be a sidekick. His role is unsustainable on the show. He needs to resolve his role as guardian of the Danvers girls and move on to find a life of his own.

Jimmy... I honestly don't see any chemistry between him and the rest of the cast. I would get rid of him too.

I don't think this is a complete overhaul of the series. I think that it could all be natural progression over time. The Cadmus storyline could make Kara rethink her role as a government agent pretty easily. Same with Alex. And Jimmy could decide that he'd rather be a photographer in the field, and go off to take pictures around the world. He could come back to National City from time to time, but he wouldn't be a regular.

Winn and Kara work well together. Kara and Alex work well together. Kara and Cat work well together (though the dynamic needs to change, because I think that Kara needs a job that means something to the character). Basically, as much as I hate that they used Clark's story for Kara, most of that stuff can stick around. Getting rid of the DEO will allow Kara to be her own person and would allow more of her fun personality to come through. I want her to be the girl who flipped out when Barry handed her ice cream, but I want that excitement to be about her own role in the world.

Unlike Clark Kent, Kara Danvers is a cover persona (not to the extent of Bruce Wayne, but more than Clark). We aren't being shown who the real Kara is.

150 (edited by Informant 2016-04-06 21:34:47)

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Arrow...


Arrow...


Hmm...

I'm not happy. The question is, is this the "not happy" that I'm supposed to feel? Or is it a "not happy" that is the result of one more bad decision?

I think it's mostly the second option, with only hints of the first. The writers messed this up. I agree that Laurel could have left the show, because I don't think that Black Canary could be just a sidekick forever. She is an icon and should have been respected a lot more than she was on the show. The threw her aside and forced Felicity down our throats over these last two seasons. So yeah, if Laurel left to become her own hero, I'd be okay with that.

But they killed her. They killed Black Canary... again (if you count Sara as a version of the character). They killed Laurel before she was allowed to become *the* Black Canary. The one who could lead the Justice League. That irks me, because I've always liked Black Canary more than Wonder Woman and thought that she was the best female superhero.

Legacy aside, I don't get the constant need to kill Lance women. We've already seen how Quentin will react, so what point is there in that? It feels more like they did it just to get rid of the Oliver/Laurel relationship once and for all, after neglecting it for most of the last two years. And the weird thing is, I was finally starting to enjoy the group dynamic tonight! With Felicity gone, Laurel and Oliver were finally having conversations that weren't arguments. They were acting like old friends, as they should have been all along. They were letting Laurel do more on the show. They were letting her interact with Thea nicely. I was actually thinking how much smoother the group scenes were without Olicity drama in the background. Then they killed Laurel, who was a big part of that, and this will undoubtedly bring Felicity back to take down Damien.

And it wasn't well done. The way they let Damien get his idol back was sloppy. Laurel's death was the result of stupidity, resulting from bad writing (Andy shouldn't even be a factor). They should have kept Damien powerless and locked away. They should have made Malcolm the villain for the rest of the year, and they should have killed him once and for all. He is quickly becoming the Crowley of this series, and that's not a good thing.

In terms of the story, I liked seeing Oliver relate to Laurel. I liked seeing her open up to him at the end. It was honest. It's the story that the writers have been desperately trying to avoid for two years. But it was useless to throw it in at the end.

And Laurel's death just seemed like a ploy. They cut away before it happened, giving the impression that it's a trick and she will be back later. But the writers have insisted that they intend to make this death stick. So was it just bad editing/writing? Or are they lying about it? (Katie isn't exactly moving on with her life. I won't say more than that, in case it counts as a spoiler).

I don't know. It doesn't feel good either way. I'm not happy about the death or the writing.



EDIT: and in case anyone doubts my comments about bad writing... Vixen smashed the Damien's totem. Now it's back together because... it is.