Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant


I'm not sure I'm as upset as some (there's a really big #NoLaurelNoArrow hashtag going on now) because I'm not all that familiar with Laurel from the comics.  I don't like the idea that a character should be off-limits because they're a big deal in the comics.  If they need to kill Oliver (for real, not like last time) and it serves the greater Arrowverse story, then that'd be fine with me.  But I think the problem for me is that Laurel was never a great character on this show.  I don't think the writers knew what to do with her, they stumbled on this female character that was easier to write (Felicity), and then that grew into a monster.  Guggenheim basically said tonight that they did all they could with Laurel/Oliver, and they needed to close the book on it.

I still say the death should've been Diggle.  I think it would've meant a lot more to the team because Laurel barely felt like a team member in the first place.  She meant more as an ADA and a reason to keep Lance around.  Now....I don't really know what this changes.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I'm not against them killing her just because she is Black Canary. I'm really not. It is just the whole situation that bothers me.

They didn't do everything they could with the character. They spent two seasons purposefully not doing anything with her, and by the time they got around to using her, they were pushing Felicity as the female lead. And now they killed Laurel, and have her endorse Olicity in her final moments... And then the producer craps all over fans of the character, calling them a "vocal minority", which is exactly why Olicity exists in the first place.

While Legends and The Flash are embracing their comic book roots, Arrow seems ashamed of them and disrespectful to them. There are decades of stories with this iconic character, and the writers refuse to use any of them, because they conflict with Olicity!

Comic book characters die all the time. I'm not opposed to it really. But this whole situation sucks. It was disrespectful, the way it was handled. And ultimately, it was only done because they had to kill someone and they didn't like Laurel. Now we have another Lance daughter dying. How is this a fresh story to play?

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Well, here's the situation they had in front of them - kill a regular or cop out and kill someone less significant.  Prior to this, you said you were most worried that they would kill someone small - like Lance or Felicity's mom.  I was in the same boat.  Is this better than that?

So if we are talking about regulars, it's Oliver, Thea, Felicity, Laurel, Diggle.  Technically Lance and Merlyn are regulars, but we're talking about Team Arrow here. 

Oliver - It wasn't going to be him.  They sorta tried it last season, and it was a mess.

Thea - You could make the same argument with Lance women and Queen women.  Oliver lost his dad, lost his mom, and this would be losing his sister.  Stripping down his character would be fine, but you'd see a lot of the same criticisms with a Thea death as a Laurel death.

Felicity - Let's face it - this is the one you wanted.  And I don't necessarily disagree with it as the choice.  But these guys aren't idiots.  They see ratings, they do polling, they do focus groups, they sell DVDs, they look at social media - while there are definitely people who hate Olicity, enough Olicity fans exist that they had to know that Felicity is a major force in their success.  I'm with you - I don't get it.  But there are hardcore fans on both sides of the Olicity debate, and if they were going to kill a primary member of Team Arrow, there was a 50/50 chance it was going to be one side of the Olicity debate.

Diggle - This was my vote.  Diggle is awesome.  He's cool.  He's funny, but he's also the backbone of Team Arrow.  Hell, Oliver is the badass star of the show, and DIGGLE IS HIS BODYGUARD.  Diggle is his right hand.  But imagine if last night's episode had gone the same way, but it's Diggle that dies.  Because Oliver didn't do enough to prove that Andy was a traitor.  Diggle dies because Andy betrayed him.  I can see the anger in Oliver's eyes.  But also the fear.  Whenever Oliver was in a dangerous spot, Dig had his back.  Now he's got to face the most dangerous foe he's ever faced without anyone watching his back.  He's going to look behind him and realize, "holy crap, my backup is my sister and my ex.  Both have been in the field for only a couple of years.  If Diggle can die, ANY of us can die."

Laurel - And here's the last one.  If Oliver is off the table and Felicity is too popular, then Laurel was the easy choice.  I didn't think they were going to do it because I thought Laurel was the Lois to Felicity's Lana.  That Oliver had to go through Felicity to get to the real love of his life.  And that's why I was surprised - moreso than I would've been for anyone else.  I thought she was safe.

But if this show only has one more season left, even if they killed Felicity, do you think there was enough time to salvage Laurel's character?  Even if Felicity was gone and replaced by Curtis (who you also don't love), haven't they already burned through enough of your goodwill?  Could the show really ever be salvaged?

What's crazy to me after looking at the #Olicity and #NoLaurelNoArrow hashtags last night, is the VITRIOL on both sides of the debate.  I guess it's good that people care enough, but Olicity fans were cheering the death of Laurel while I saw Laurel fans throwing away DVDs, burning merchandise, condemning the show and its writers.  All over a fake romance?  That just seemed bizarre.

And that's why I would've picked Diggle.  I know I would've been declared racist, and I know people would've left then.  But is Arrow like Walking Dead now?  Where the show simply isn't good enough and so people are only watching for one or two characters?  So the show was literally damned no matter who it killed?

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I don't know that there was a good way to resolve the grave mystery. It was a useless mystery that meant nothing, and they backed themselves into a corner with it. Laurel or Diggle could have left the show without dying. Laurel had a greater destiny, and Diggle is raising a kid in the DC equivalent of Detroit. Those are good reasons to leave. Felicity had a natural out already. This would have all been fine, but they wanted a hook, so they came up with a death that they had no idea how to resolve.

At this point, I find the death frustrating because of how it happened and why it happened, not *because* it happened necessarily. The episode revolved around a prop that was already destroyed and had no reason to exist. It revolved around them knowing that Damien could get his power back with this prop, yet they kept it in a display case in a bunker that a random dude literally stumbled into last week.

There is no indication that next year will be the last. It should be, but I doubt it. The show needs an overhaul. Have Barry's time travel ripple through, or flash forward five years. But I don't think that Laurel's death adds much of anything new.

And then to have the producer insult a lot of the fans so openly is just weird. I think the show is imploding. Katie is probably lucky to get out now.

Would I have preferred a useless character to die instead? No. I would have preferred better writing with natural progression instead of cheap gimmicks. smile

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Yeah, they could've just had someone leave, but how many times is Team Arrow going to hit the streets and come back unscathed.  In these action shows, I think people need to die, or the action pieces become pedestrian.  Roy left the show alive and well.  If you also have Diggle or Laurel or Thea leave, then Team Arrow becomes indestructible.  I think Oliver really needs to learn that he's putting himself and his closest family in danger.  And that's why I would've picked Diggle.  I would've kept Andy good (or brought in someone else) who could serve as a surrogate father and take baby Sara out of harm's way.

I honestly don't hate Olicity.  What I don't really like is the drama.  So if Laurel's death gets rid of a character that the writers had no use for and pushes Oliver and Felicity to a better place with no drama, then I think it could be fine.  What's odd is that Curtis is getting promoted to a series regular next season, and he fills in the same role as Felicity.  So unless he's going to train and become Mr. Terrific, then I don't know where he fits in.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Rumors are suggesting that Felicity will become Black Canary. It would be ridiculous, I think, but I can't honestly say that I don't think the writers would go there.

Felicity provided the consequences this year, without the need for anyone to die. Paralyzing someone should be a pretty big consequence. But it wasn't.

I don't know. I am seriously considering how much this show is worth to me anymore. I keep holding out hope for it to get better, but can it get better if the writers just don't care? I like the cast (mostly) but is that enough?

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Well, Felicity was shot in an ambush.  That's not really what I'm talking about.  What I'm talking about is this team going out, week after week, with no one coming back even injured most of the time.  Thea made a joke about excuses for bruises, but it was in reference to sparring with Oliver. 

To compare it to Walking Dead again, the regulars on that show are all basically Navy SEALS at this point.  They come up with a plan and execute it perfectly every week.  The problem is that there's no drama there.  And I've found myself more and more likely to look at my phone during a fight scene because there's no longer any drama to it.  It's just going to be Team Arrow or whoever doing some punching or kicking, and then we're on to the next scene that might mean something.

I was thinking last night that Thea and Laurel got ambushed by League of Assassins and came out okay.  These are the top killers in the world, and Thea and Laurel fought them off like it was nothing.  Yeah, the League got what they came for, but that's where Laurel could've easily been killed.

If the League of Assassins or these Ghosts are supposed to be so tough, they can't be relegated to Puddies from Power Rangers.  We have to see what they can do, and the best way to do that is to show them kicking one of our guy's butts.  And that's, honestly, yet to happen.  Ra's, Merlyn, and Dahrk have been able to win against our guys, but that's about it.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

True enough. But Laurel's death doesn't really help in that department. She was killed by a magical paralysis wave of the hand, caused by a totem that has already been destroyed. She couldn't even put up a fight. It was a pathetic way to go out.
On top of that Damien didn't even stab her to death very well. If she didn't die by some fluke later, his big message to Quentin would have been a flop.

Diggle is to blame for her death, but Andy didn't even kill her directly. Malcolm could have killed her, which would have been interesting.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

No that's absolutely true.  But they, at least, know that Dahrk is more dangerous than anyone they've faced before since he's actually killed.  Ra's never managed to do it.  Merlyn's killed before, but his murder of Sara was sorta roundabout.

I just think there needs to be consequences.  It actually could've been an interesting creative move if they'd had someone like Laurel die out on a routine night out via one of the Ghosts.  Maybe Oliver has them out there working too hard, and Laurel gets tired and gets lazy (sorta like Batman in Knightfall).  At the end of the day, this is Oliver's story, and Laurel's death should advance his story.  He should intensely go after Dahrk, but he also has to be careful about who he sends in.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I was fine with Laurel's death. I was sad because I really like the actress and I enjoyed the character a lot from Season 2 onward. In terms of the fan response -- if the character had to be written out for whatever reason, this was a good ending for her. She told Oliver she loved him and in a very unselfish, earnest way. She had come to the close of her career as the Black Canary and beaten alcoholism, drug addiction, tragedy. She went from a bland female character to a self-destructive time bomb to a superhero. Team Arrow is fighting a war. Casualties are a simple reality.

The only narrative issue I took with the episode -- Diggle's insane faith in his brother was ridiculous and the show plainly declares it to be ridiculous and I get it, but I couldn't quite wrap my head around Oliver not kidnapping Andy quietly and locking him up in the Pipeline or the island prison until this thing was resolved.

As for the other complaints about the show as a whole -- I guess I see them, but I've never found ARROW to be particularly problem-free. Season 1, I found absolutely ridiculous in that the show was filmed and shot as a Serious Cinematic Christopher Nolan Crime Drama but with hammy performances, stagey looking sets and absurd characterization like the Huntress becoming evil because she finds out Oliver has an ex-girlfriend. Oliver's voiceovers were embarrassing. Moira Queen was insufferable. Tommy and Laurel were useless. You can't have the lead character get in fights week after week and look picture perfect and still claim to be a Grounded Action Drama.

Seasons 2 - 4 have veered into a heightened, exaggerated superhero escapism. All the flaws are largely due to the show diving into the absurdities of the genre where Season 1 was hesitant and restrained and trying to be serious. Over time, the absurdities have mounted and accumulated with nearly every character becoming a vigilante and the technology becoming as advanced as STAR TREK's and the mythologizing of certain characters (the Arrow and Felicity) getting over the top due to doing it in many episodes over a season.

There are some areas where I think the show went too far in Season 3, such as making Felicity the perfect female specimen desired by all men because the writers became hopelessly besotted with the actress who played her. There are aspects of the show that remain contrived and silly like the idol somehow being intact after Vixen destroyed it and Oliver's flashbacks progressing through plot elements always in sync with whatever's happening five years afterwards. But... it's a superhero show. I guess I just accept that it's absurd and the show gave up realism sometime around the revelation of the Undertaking in Season 1.

It's always been ridiculous -- I think it's just gotten ridiculous in areas that some viewers find irksome and possibly through familiarity having made certain plot elements grating.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Another thought on shipper outrage -- I think it's stupid. I'm a shipper in a sense -- I enjoy seeing certain pairings of actors. I love seeing Quinn and Wade bounce off each other. I got really annoyed when the Clark/Chloe pairing was broken up on SMALLVILLE, but my issue was not that they weren't a couple. My issue was that the show rarely put these two characters in the same scene for various behind the scenes reasons that ultimately served to drag the show down.

Dan Harmon has a hilarious Season 6 commentary on an episode I can't recall where he briefly does an impression of a Jeff-Annie shipper whining that Jeff and Annie had an argument, and that he hates the show now because he measures it only in terms of a specific romance; no other character or storyline on the show has any value and that the show exists only to produce this one isolated element of its plots and characters.

Ultimately, that's how I see the more militant shippers. Regardless of whether Oliver was paired with Laurel or Felicity, he interacted regularly with both characters. Given how the majority of the series has had Oliver single and those fans kept watching, the appeal was not Oliver being in a romantic relationship with one or the other but simply being in scenes with those characters. And whether or not the show is currently supporting an Oliver/________ pairing, it shouldn't be the only measure of quality.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

ireactions wrote:

Another thought on shipper outrage -- I think it's stupid.

Agree 2000%.  I have a friend who is a Olicity hater, and he was prominently retweeting #NoLaurelNoArrow tweets all day.  And I just don't understand that.  And the Olicity fangirls seem even worse.  I think there are people who think Felicity is annoying, and I think there are people who are just huge fans of Black Canary.  And those people were annoyed that Oliver Queen was ending up with someone else.  I think a lot of them see GA/BC as one of the greater comic couples around, and they want to see that romance on Arrow.

And, on the other side, I think a lot of girls see themselves as Felicity.  An awkward, shy, nerdy girl who can get the big handsome man.  So she's an audience insert, and they like that.  It's funny...when my roommate would walk by when I was watching Arrow in the living room, he'd stop when Felicity was on the screen.  And I'd say something like, "She's the nerd."  And he'd look confused because Emily Bett Rickards is clearly very attractive.  And I'd point out the fact that she wears glasses and makes pop culture references, and he'd just shake his head and walk away. 

What's sad, in a way, is that the show is so divisive, and the two sides are so entrenched, that the show's kinda screwed either way.  If Laurel had died telling Oliver he was the love of her life and said nothing else (especially nothing about Felicity), I think it would've been better for "Lauliver" fans because "she died the love of his life."  But what happened was they set themselves up where you have people actively hating one character because she's the rival of your character.  It just ends up hurting the show, and I don't know how else the show could move passed it besides just killing off the character they view to be less valuable.

That being said, I've convinced myself the the Laurel death is a fake-out.  I think whatever was in the pouch is something to stop her heart or whatever, and it's a fakeout.  And maybe the "secret" she told him involved telling her dad (I hope, to spare poor Lance) what was going on.


Now I know the next couple episodes are supposed to revolve around trying to bring Laurel back, but that could all be part of some plan to get Dahrk.


I don't know if I love that any more, but that's how I think it'll go.  My guess is actually that it's still Felicity who dies - Curtis was promoted to a series regular, and I still think he's the one who ends up as Overwatch.  I don't see any other reason to promote him, and making Felicity the new Black Canary would be insane.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Here's the thing for me... I liked the first two seasons. I liked the show being serious, the fight scenes being well choreographed and all of that. The characters had some issues, but overall, I liked it. They committed to the show, so it was comic-booky enough, but you could tell that they actually took it seriously. And the arc of the first two seasons, with Slade, was nicely done. The group dynamic was nice. There were layers to the Oliver/Felicity relationship. I liked having her swoon over him while he just kinda tolerated it. He relied on her and loved her, but it wasn't wishy-washy. And Diggle was an equal partner then.

I didn't like that they were holding off telling Laurel's story for so long, because she was a series regular (and the female lead) and not having a clear arc for her was just unacceptable. For two years, she had nothing but placeholder plotlines. But it was okay, because it was leading somewhere and we all knew it.

Then season 3 happened and they stopped taking the show seriously. They stopped caring about trying to make the plots feel plausible. Oliver became completely incompetent as a fighter and strategist. Felicity was moved into the role of female lead, which she has no business being. They stripped the Oliver/Felicity dynamic of every layer it had and made it into the most bland pairing on TV... it is essentially what was wrong with Laurel in the first two seasons. They're forcing something that doesn't feel right. Diggle can't possibly be an equal in the Oliver/Felicity relationship, as he once was.

The show has become more about servicing fangirls than it is about the stories. The producers think of Black Canary fans as a "vocal minority", which shows how little they even think about the comic books anymore. The team never wins a fight, because they have to fight the same enemy week after week, for a whole year (no more villains of the week). Oliver has to be dumbed down in order to make room for the rest of the team. An the writers care about the stories they're telling so little that small things like Oliver being stabbed through the chest and thrown off a cliff, or Damien's totem being smashed, are completely forgotten.

My issue isn't really about hating Felicity or loving Laurel. It's about wanting to smack the writers in the face for blowing a job that so many writers would LOVE to have the chance to take on. They just don't care, and I sinceriously don't understand why.

You look at Ra's on Legends of Tomorrow and he is actually interesting, in the few minutes that we actually see him. He is played as strong, but smart. He doesn't just kill because he's evil, he has thoughts and an understanding of what's happening. His relationship with Sara is intriguing.
Or you look at Felicity on The Flash, and she is the same character that we know and love from the first two season of Arrow. She puts her foot in her mouth. She is geeky. She is part of the team, but not forced into a leadership role that she is completely incapable of pulling off.

Then you look at the crossover and Felicity is such a selfish, arrogant, petty woman. How did they get there with her?

For a long time now, I've wanted to see Oliver and Laurel actually interact as the friends that they've been for a very long time. The producers haven't wanted to do this, first because they wanted to play the anger of their history, but then because they wanted to push Felicity as the love interest and having Oliver interact with Laurel would threaten that. So we never get to see them reach a place where they are close friends who have a long history and can actually lean on each other. Green Arrow and Black Canary were not only not a couple on this show, but they didn't even like each other for most of the show!
Then, in the last couple of weeks, since Felicity has been away, Oliver and Laurel have been talking. Growing closer. Showing their history. It felt natural and good, and it seemed like the writers were finally allowing them to be natural around each other.

I'm not a shipper. I just ask for natural interaction. Forced stories are like a hammer to the head. So this was nice. There was something right about them being closer... And then they kill her. They were just allowing them to be friends because the threat would soon be gone. And in her final moments, she pushes Olicity. After all of their years and all of their history, the last words that she speaks to Oliver are about f***ing Felicity!

And why avoid the threat? Why not have Laurel reveal the picture and have Oliver find out that he was the love of her life, and allow that story to actually play out? It doesn't mean that he has to end up with her. It just means that for once in her damn life, Laurel is allowed to be true to her character.

Was it Tracy Torme who said that when he watched Exodus, he was baffled by the way the show missed its chance to play the obvious drama in having families separated, with some living and some dying? Children being torn from their mother's arms. I think it was him. It is a vague memory, but it's a lesson that stayed with me. Those small, natural moments are the things that make a story feel real, even if it is complete fantasy. Deny that true moment of feeling, and you destroy the only reality you have to work with.

Legends of Tomorrow is a ridiculous show. It is a Saturday morning cartoon in live action. It's plots are thin, but what makes the show interesting to watch is that they explore the characters. The characters make that silly TV show more interesting than most of the Marvel universe.

Will Laurel come back? I don't know. Katie is still working in that circle, I know that much. Would her return be completely stupid? Yes. But does that matter at this point? The show, like Supergirl, needs to be seriously overhauled. They should take after the comic books and have a new showrunner come in, with a vision of what they want to do with Green Arrow. A plan. An arc. I'm tired of the show just being on TV because it hasn't been canceled yet. I want it to be on TV because there is a story to tell. And there is a story to tell! The character has been around forever. They have to have some ideas beyond Batman villains and Olicity.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I guess for me -- while I have some issues with the soap opera of the show and some of the plots -- I don't find the problems as glaring as the problems I had with Season 1, and I thought Season 1 was terrible. So, the show didn't really start in a great place for me and I see no gold standard that it's failing to reach. I find it as flawed as ever, except the flaws have migrated to areas that don't annoy me as much as they annoy you.

Moving onto the shipping wars, which haven't really been in evidence around here and hopefully never will -- Laurel has been problematic since the first episode. In the comics, Black Canary is essentially a more feminine version of the showboating, arrogant, activist Green Arrow. But the actors they cast and the scripts they wrote bear almost no resemblance to the comic book characters.

Stephen Amell's The Hood/Arrow/Green Arrow is a driven, angry, troubled, resolute, solitary veteran of war, nothing like the adventurous thrillseeker of the comic books. Katie Cassidy's Laurel Lance is not the goofy, daring, fun-loving, high-spirited heroine who was Oliver Queen's partner in lunacy. In the comics, there's a very natural sense of two like-minded spirits who are head over heels in love. In ARROW -- you can see why the playboy Oliver might have dated Laurel and admired her, and you can see why Laurel might have had fun with the playboy Oliver -- but there is absolutely no sense that the two of them are partners in life and lunacy or could ever be.

If you ever read the GREEN ARROW comics, the idea of the spontaneous, random, eccentric Dinah Lance being a lawyer or a district attorney would be completely unthinkable. And the idea of Oliver Queen being a nightclub owner is so utterly alien to the comic book incarnation that it's funny; the Oliver Queen of the comics would prefer to go fishing and camp out in the mountains.

So, right from the start, there was this expectation that Oliver and Laurel would be the couple of the series based on the comics -- and it was an expectation the writers didn't seem to keen on themselves as they made Laurel hostile and hateful towards Oliver and made it clear Oliver was too racked with guilt and grief over his crappy behaviour towards Laurel to go near her like that, especially when she was dating his best friend. By the midpoint of Season 1, it was pretty clear that the characters as scripted didn't make a good couple and the actors as performing didn't have a lot of chemistry.

There was also a serious problem in the way they'd written Laurel Lance -- she was incredibly one-note as nothing but the love interest for one man or another, and with Season 2, the writers tried to course correct by giving Laurel a lot of personal problems from addiction to hatred of the Arrow to her sheer loathing for Sara Lance.

It was a tough road, but it finally dimensionalized Laurel and by Season 3, it was possible to see Laurel as a partner, ally and comrade to Oliver -- but there was no romance there. However, years of SMALLVILLE had apparently created a vast audience of superhero fans who weren't deeply familiar with the source material but were certain that the defaults of the source material as the knew them -- Green Arrow and Black Canary are a couple -- would be the eventual default of the show as well.

Ultimately, ARROW went its own route and I give them a lot of credit for that. But it's unquestionably where a lot of the shipping rage and wars come from -- for whatever reason, a certain segment of fans have a bizarre sense of entitlement that they justify by claiming that killing off Laurel is an unacceptable divergence from the source material.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I think people are probably upset by the fact that Laurel was an unkept promise. Everything you say about her early on is true. The question was always supposed to be, how does she get to a place with Oliver where you could see them drinking coffee and talking about nothing in particular? How do Laurel's path in life and Oliver's path in life eventually bring them to a place where they have more in common?

We don't get the answer now. We saw them getting a little closer, but it was still a work in progress. Laurel telling Oliver that he was the love of her life was something that shouldn't have been a death bed confession that occurs midway through the character's arc, which is all we will ever get.

And on top of that, she never really became *the* Black Canary. She was just a sidekick... It is like killing off Bruce Wayne while he is still learning how to fight.

Laurel should have left the show for a while, and then come back as the full version of Black Canary, who can stand as Oliver's equal and not just a trainee on his team.

If she really isn't dead, I suppose they could still do that. But if she is dead, I get the outrage. For me, it is just frustrating to watch the show these days.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Well, I have a question and it's something that I struggle with too.  As writers, do you guys struggle with judging how a show *IS* because you're too concerned with what a show *SHOULD BE* in your eyes?

Because, Info, I know you're a writers and you've got great ideas (and I think either of you would make terrific showrunners) but a lot of the problems you're talking about are expectations for what you thought the show should be.  Expectations for what Laurel should be or what was coming.  That Laurel would become *the Black Canary* - that there could be a Team Black Canary in, say, Coast City and Laurel comes back one day as an equal to Oliver and not a sidekick.

And if that was ever the plan and it fell apart, I can see judging that.  But what if it was never the plan?  Can you really get mad about an "unkept promise" if it was never really a promise to begin with?  You might think their plan is stupid, but don't you still have to judge it by what it is?

If Laurel was a character who was a good lawyer, lost her way, and then found it again through crimefighting - then her arc is fine.  It's tragic, but at the time of her death (if she's dead, which, again, I doubt) she was content.  She'd done something with her life.  Saved lives.  Felt alive.  A lot of us live 70 years and never experience that.  To her, she'd already done it.

Was her character bland?  Yes.  At times, I forgot she was on the show.  I thought her transition to a member of the team was sloppy and, honestly, unrealistic.  She took a handful of boxing lessons and suddenly was an equal on the team.  That was bizarre to me.  But she was friends with Nyssa and maybe it was in her blood....I don't know.  But I still think there's an arc there.  It's not a great arc, and it's not worthy of (supposedly, I honestly can't say) one of the better female superheroes.  But it is an arc.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I'm fine with the show. I enjoy it well enough. I can't say it's not a challenge to try to review the story someone set out  to tell rather than the story I wish they'd have told, but I generally manage. Laurel's character was always a problem; they did some neat stuff with her and I would have been happy to see her remain a regular, but I can't say that killing her off deprives us of a great love story or a great superhero character as rendered on this show.

The character ARROW wrote was very obviously created as a version of Rachel Dawes from the Nolan BATMAN movies during Season 1 when ARROW was trying (and failing) to be a Nolan pastiche, and that template was all wrong for being the Black Canary from the comics. She became the Black Canary of ARROW, but ultimately, she was Oliver's friend who knew him before he became a warrior and could still be friends with him even after he cheated on her with her sister. She was the person who could see how much Oliver had changed.

I sometime suspect that a lot of the shipping wars are actually fanned by Katie Cassidy herself, who would post clips or trailers on Twitter with text complaining about the Felicity/Oliver scenes or declare in interviews that Laurel would be Oliver's first and last girlfriend and that Felicity was a fling. Stepping back from the fan rage, all that strikes me as Cassidy deliberately provoking fans and pretending there's some great rivalry between her and Emily Bett Rickards -- a rivalry certain segments of fandom have adopted. In reality, the two women are friends.

My issues with ARROW's first season was the constant tonal dissonance -- the scripts were humourless and had Oliver grimly intoning about saving his city, but there were silly things like Oliver being bizarrely confident that his list of names was meaningful even though he had no information to accompany it. Then there was Oliver creating his HQ through what appeared to be one day of intensive sledgehammering. It was ridiculous.

Season 2 -4 have gotten much more fun. Season 2 was solid, but Season 3 crashed hard with Oliver's nonsensical resurrection and the League of Assassins having no clear motive, goal, purpose, philosophy or much of anything beyond wanting Oliver to join them because.

Season 4's been fine. I see all the issues Informant raises, but I don't feel them as severely; Felicity being upset because Oliver having a son was the latest in a long line of crazy revelations was pretty understandable to me. The idol being disabled by Vixen but suddenly stored in the base was absurd, but no moreso than Speedy being an oxycontin addict whose issues faded away after a few stern talks and a date with Roy or Oliver deciding to investigate his mother's involvement in the Undertaking by crashing into her office, threatening her once, fleeing when attacked and then refusing to get into it any further.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I think that the criticisms mentioned above are based more on the show than the comics. The writers did have Laurel in a holding pattern for two years, because they wanted to save the Black Canary story for later. As a result, Laurel and Oliver couldn't relate to each other at all. By the time they reached a point where they could, the writers had decided on Felicity as the female lead, so Laurel was once again held down so that she wouldn't overpower Felicity. And by the time they told a story without Felicity in the way, they had already decided to kill Laurel.

The unkept promise is simply the character that they introduced. The producer, Marc Guggenheim, said that their goal was to get Oliver and Laurel to a good place and once that was done, they had nothing left to do with her. So essentially, they had us waiting for this moment for four seasons and then decided that it bored them, so they killed her. The whole arc was useless.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I've enjoyed Laurel's arc. Season 2 put her on a hilariously self-destructive path from becoming the Arrow's archnemesis to her totally justifiable rage at Sarah for faking her death and returning to a happy homecoming. Season 3 was neat where she sought to honour her sister and spare her father the pain. Throughout all of it, I liked how Laurel kept it prominent that Oliver was not born a driven, hardened crusader against evil but was a shallow and unfaithful little creep and how she didn't truly realize how much he'd changed.

I never found her interesting on her own, but she was an interesting figure in how she related to Oliver. I never felt like Laurel was less than what she needed to be; she was written as a civilian and an office worker, not a superhero, and when she became a superhero, it was in a somewhat misguided effort to keep her sister alive in her heart. I thought they did a nice job. I was quite relieved that the romance was dropped after Season 1 and Laurel had her own motivations and goals even if they were designed to bring complications to Oliver's life rather than Laurel's life. No complaints on Season 2 - 4 Laurel for me.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Informant wrote:

Wally West... I'm more upset about them changing him in the comics than on TV. They really didn't have a choice about his race on the TV show, since Joe and Iris are black (though they could have played Iris as bi-racial, I supposed).

The comics changing Wally struck me as a mis-guided but well-intentioned effort. DC has given no official statements on why they got rid of Wally West and brought back Barry Allen, but the reasoning seems self-evident to me. Wally West was too complicated a character for film and TV.

Wally's origin: Barry Allen is a police scientist who was doused in chemicals struck by lightning that gave him superspeed and then Barry's nephew was struck in a similar accident and became Kid Flash and then Barry died and Wally became the successor to Barry as the third Flash because there was actually a first Flash and who the hell would bother with any of this crap for a TV show or a movie?

All adaptations either used Barry's origin with Wally West's name or just used Barry. DC, realizing that it was only a matter of time before the Flash became a TV show or film, decided to get in line with what would be the most widely seen version of the Flash -- a Flash who is Barry Allen, police scientist. CSI with superpowers. Barry was brought back to life. His absence since 1986 was compressed to a year or two and explained with a cover story of him having been in witness protection.

This left them in a quandary of what the hell to do with Wally. They attempted to simply background him: he's the Flash of Keystone City appearing in group shots and back-up stories while Barry is now the focus of the FLASH title in Central City. But due to deadline issues and the writer getting stretched too thin, the back-up stories were never written. Then, with a company-wide reboot, it was simpler to just make it so that Barry was the Flash, period. At this point, there was a wish to bring Wally back -- but to adjust the character so that he was defined not as being Kid Flash or the third Flash -- but simply as Barry's nephew, hence all the alterations.

In retrospect, it probably would have been best to just not use Wally at all or put him on Earth 2 with the post-reboot Jay Garrick and Alan Scott (the first Flash and Green Arrow). But it wasn't meant with malice. Repiloting is tough, man.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Oh, I'm cool with bringing Barry back in the comics. Wally was my Flash, but I realize that Barry was important too.

I just strongly dislike them changing Wally's race along with his story. That isn't just altered history or a reboot, it is a new character being given an old name in order to sell him to the audience. I think that Wally deserved better than to essentially be killed off and then shrugged off as this new person took over his character.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

When Cat Grant said that Harrison Ford was a philanderer trying to cheat on his wife with Cat, I had a brief moment where I feared SUPERGIRL's creators might get sued.

173 (edited by Slider_Quinn21 2016-04-16 23:16:17)

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Legends of Tomorrow is fun, but this show is entirely predicated on the idea that everyone is dumb.  They land somewhere, everyone decides to leave for "reasons" and they get in a mess.  Curiosity is fine, but Rip Hunter needs to get things under control.  I mean, hell, they *kill someone* in the past in this episode.  He turns out to be a gang member who, I assume, never amounted to anything.   But they don't know that when it happens.  For as much as they know, that could be John F. Kennedy's relative. 

I know there has to be something for them to do week-to-week, but making the main catalyst for every episode "stupidity" is going to get tired soon. smile

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

That's my thought too.  Legends was fun at first, but it's turned out to largely be the same story every week with different set dressing.  I think that the writers and producers have spread themselves too thin and all of the shows are suffering for it.

That aside, I was amused that Heatwave chose the primary colors of green and yellow for his western costume.  Those are the colors of the classic Chronos costume in the comics (green shirt with yellow collar).

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

TemporalFlux wrote:

I think that the writers and producers have spread themselves too thin and all of the shows are suffering for it.

Agreed.  I'm not really sure what the solution is, either.  There's been talk of Arrow only being five seasons.  So maybe Arrow ends next season.  I still think Legends should be / should've been an anthology mini-series.  Maybe even a companion piece to Arrow and Flash like Agent Carter is to Agents of Shield.  Three full series seems like a lot, and it doesn't seem like they're finding the writers to write all three effectively.

Thinking way outside the box, what if they merged all the shows into one big show called "Arrowverse"?  Sign everyone to contracts of X number of episodes, and every story takes place somewhere in the Arrowverse but every episode is essentially a crossover.  Maybe one episode is Oliver, Sara, and Cisco taking down a gang of criminals in Star City, while another has Rip, Barry, and Diggle taking down some time traveling metahuman.  Instead of 69 episodes of three shows, maybe you do 54 episodes of one smile

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I think Legends is fun, in a silly live action Saturday morning cartoon sort of way. They do it better than most of the Marvel movies at least. It still has the flavor of a comic book, if only one of the less serious books. The Flash still feels like one of the more serious, but fantastical books. Arrow... I don't even know what it's supposed to be anymore. It was supposed to be the serious show in the group, but it's not really that anymore.

Gotham is really good though. I'm loving that show.

Can we agree that when people say that Superman should be more fun and hopeful, the Supergirl method is still not the answer? The last couple of episodes were just weird. It's like they didn't know what to do with the story that they set up, so they had an entire episode of zombie people, where nothing really happens.

If that episode had happened on Smallville, you'd have had Kara, Cat and Maxwell in different places. Each would have had some part of the mission to accomplish. Each would have had some amount of danger. Instead, the three of them spent the episode talking while extras roamed aimlessly behind them, doing... stuff.

And the finale was just weak. Attack of the killer hangovers! The battle between four super powerful beings is confined to a dessert in the middle of nowhere, so there is no element of immediate danger to those people whose lives are in danger. They're just squinting and cringing, but that visual just lacked urgency. And the battle between Kara and Non came down to a staring contest.
Meanwhile, Clark still steals the show by being the most awkward elephant in the room ever. We see his feet, and we're told that he's just out of the game. Kara doesn't think twice about him on her tour of goodbyes (which actually kinda makes sense, since he's been a dick to her since she arrived).
Can someone tell me why they couldn't show Clark in the background, fighting Fort Rozz bad guys while Kara battled Non?

He taking the ship into space was poorly handled. Having Alex suddenly know how to fly a kryptonian ship (is she even a normal Earth pilot?) was silly.

As was the "hope" video message from Supergirl to the world. It just made no sense. And this is what you get when you try to write Superman/Supergirl according to the image of what they're supposed to be, rather than with a sense of telling an honest story and thinking about the characters as you would anyone else.

At the very least, they should have shown Ft. Rozz drifting away from Earth, rather than just sitting there in space.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

When I saw the fireball coming down at the end of the episode, I really thought it was Fort Rozz falling back to earth because she didn't fly it far enough away; I started laughing at that one.

Supergirl really seems like it's written for kids; I don't know if that was their intention, but it's what they accomplished.   On that note, I have an idea what was in the Kryptonian ship in the cliffhanger.   I place my bet it's either Krypto the super dog or Supergirl's classic pet Streaky the super cat.  That would fit with the tone they've set, and kids would probably love it.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Only we don't get to see Krypto directly. They just show his collar and then have him zoom off to join Superman. But every so often, Kara comes home to find her shoes chewed up, letting her know that he is still out there and thinks she is swell. smile

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I don't know, I don't feel like its any more "for kids" than Flash.  I feel like it's about the same level of fun/goofy as Flash.  Definitely not as serious as Arrow used to be, but I don't think it's too silly or stupid.

I absolutely agree that they need to do something about Clark.  Superman is too much of a distraction, and they can't stay in this weird zone where he's on the show but he's not.  It's cool that he's out there, but if they aren't going to use him, they need to send him away or something.  They're trying to have their cake and eat it too, and it doesn't work.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

The problems with Supergirl is that the writers have no sense of who the character is. They're writing her as Clark, which doesn't work. And they don't know how to introduce drama or tension for the character, so it always seem forced and false. Her sitting at an old news desk, basically asking people to clap is they believe, was ridiculous.

They seem to have to use this government agency, which doesn't fit well into the series. So we have a bunch of military scenes in this cave, and it doesn't seem remotely realistic. Especially putting Martian Manhunter in charge of the DEO again.

They don't know what to do with the supporting characters. Alex is a generic super chick who can do whatever the plot needs that week. None of the characters have strong personalities or purpose.

On The Flash, there is a clear sense of character. Cisco and Barry are both smart, but their dialogue couldn't be swapped without anyone noticing. Iris and Caitlin couldn't be swapped. Harry and Eobard can't even be swapped! dd to that a general sense of purpose in the writing. Episodes where they're just trying to waste time before the next big event stand out because there is a natural flow that is interrupted. Whereas with Supergirl, I get the sense that nobody has a clue what they're doing. The finale pretty much cemented that belief.

Supergirl does feel like a kid's show, because there is no great effort put into making it. The character is being written as a feminist icon, surrounded by feminists, doing feminist things, but it's all just fluff.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Well, I can't really disagree with any of that.  Honestly, I don't know much about Kara as a character in the comics.  So "girl Superman" is basically what I was expecting going in. 

You've pointed out a ton of issues, and to me, they're all valid.  Maybe it's like Marvel stuff.  I have enough fun watching that I'm willing to forgive laziness.  I don't know.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I was pretty happy with the SUPERGIRL finale. TF says that it feels like it's for children. I'd say that description is incomplete. SUPERGIRL is an all ages series. It's a family product like TOY STORY, THE LEGO MOVIE, ARCHIVE and SPIDER-MAN LOVES MARY JANE.

I'm not blind to the flaws of SUPERGIRL, having listed them exhaustively in a post that other posters inexplicably attributed to Informant. However, I am in favour of its mission, its spirit, its values, its goals (albeit goals that are often contradictory and mutually exclusive).

The season finale had some issues, but I'm prepared to dismiss all of them. I have no problem with Myriad being undone by Supergirl inspiring the masses, the series having built the S-shield in National City as an iconic symbol of hope that is meant to be just as meaningful as Helen Danvers reaching out to Alex.

The superfight fight taking place in a deserted location? Well, that's where the Myriad hardware was buried -- out of sight, far from population centers, and hardly any different from BATMAN VS. SUPERMAN insisting that Metropolis' downtown core was empty or having the trinity fight Doomsday in an apparently vacant part of Gotham City. Alex flying the pod? Well, clearly, the AI of Kara's mother decided to help her out.

I definitely got the same sense from the finale as I did BATMAN VS. SUPERMAN in that the finale seemed to have far too much going on. At times, it seemed like scenes had been sped up at 1.3 times in order for it to fit in the running length -- and I got the sense that lines were cut here and there. At one point where Maxwell Lord tells J'onn that Supergirl is going to try to talk people out of Myriad, I got the sense that J'onn was about to respond, but the shot ended -- I imagined J'onn saying that if and when this failed, they could still use the bomb, right?

The Myriad plot was, to me, darkly insightful in noting that every problem with the world could be dealt with by removing free will from human beings and directing them to spend their time entirely focused on environmental problems at the expense of their individuality and personal will. The fact that Cat Grant didn't even notice everyone had been hypnotized was a grim comment on this vision of a better world.

I wished the episode could have been a bit longer to explore this a bit more and also pace Alex's fight a bit better, because that's really the plot point needed to hammer home why Kara can save National City from Myriad with her broadcast. The drama of Kara saying farewell to each person in her life was really touching, as was the revelation that J'onn had been able to free himself from the DEO the entire time. The fight with Alex was really unnerving for me because of Kara's fear of injuring her sister; the battle in the desert had a real sense of desperation that Kara could lose her home. The material was forced and lacking in subtlety, but the actors and the director made me *feel* all of it, so I was okay with all the flaws.

The claim that Kara is being written as Clark is strange to me; she's not being written like any Clark Kent I'm familiar with and while I haven't read every Superman comic, I've read a selection from each era. The 30s - 60s Clark is a bumbling oaf while Superman goes from an activist firebrand to a rather gentle father figure before the 70s and 80s transformed Clark into a charismatic journalist with Superman as a Herculean fantasy figure. The 90s and 2000s transitioned from a dual personality into three personalities: Clark on the Smallville farm, Superman/Kal-El of Krypton and Clark in Metropolis with different blends of each of the three in different situations, as played by Brandon Routh. SMALLVILLE just wrote Clark on the farm with occasional flashes of more Christopher Reeve style Superman behaviour that represented adulthood and by the end, Clark was pretty much in Superman mode all the time, but there was no duality of persona. ("You walk like a fireman and talk like a cop.")

Kara isn't really like that -- I guess she's closest to Brandon Routh except there aren't multiple personas. Kara Zor-El/Kara Danvers/Supergirl are the same person with no difference in personality, but different situations bring out different aspects of her; superheroics bring forth her light-hearted, fun-loving side matched with determined heroism; offices bring out Kara's unnerved sense of displacement which originates from being an adopted refugee; the DEO brings out both.

I think Alex Danvers is wonderful and the actress makes her distinct from Kara by showing how Kara is caring and heroic, but Alex has a devious, manipulative and at times ruthless side, exemplified by her using Maxwell Lord's attraction to spy on him and stabbing Astra through the heart. Kara doesn't have that kind of killer instinct and while the scripts have struggled to keep that in place, the actress provides it.

But to say she's being written as Clark -- well, I don't recall any Clark ever being anything like this Kara. Regardless of which Clark, Clark's defining characteristic is being constantly in disguise and engaging in subterfuge; Kara doesn't really do that. The secret identity aspect of SUPERGIRL is almost irrelevant to the point where even Cat Grant sees right through "Kiera."

J'onn being reinstated at the DEO was dumb and the reason it doesn't work -- they meant to have an episode with the US President to be played by Lynda Carter. But the schedule didn't work out, so they failed to establish the character of the US President and why she would be inclined to grant J'onn clemency -- in which case it would have been best to have him taken on as a consultant rather than the boss.

Anyway. I really like SUPERGIRL because, despite all of its mis-steps, it's trying to do something good and it inspires fan mail like this:

Dear Melissa Benoist and Chyler Leigh,

You met thousands of people last weekend. I want to tell you about your impact on three of them. Three little girls, specifically, who were all wearing Superman pajamas and were camped out at the front of the autograph lines on Saturday morning. (I would love to get them Supergirl pajamas, but we couldn’t find any. DC should really get on that).

Supergirl is the first show that our entire family watches together. After dinner on Monday nights, the younger two girls always race upstairs to put on pajamas and brush teeth, so as not to be late for the opening credits.

But it’s our oldest daughter that has gained the most from Supergirl. She identifies strongly with Kara Danvers. Like Kara, our girl has long blonde hair; she wears glasses; she was adopted. And just as Kara does, our girl misses her first family, and she struggles with feeling alien at times.

Over the past year, our oldest girl has grown more independent. She is in middle school now and prefers to hang out in her room with the door shut, listening to music, watching YouTube videos and reading YA books. Her dad and I and her two younger sisters feel wistful for the days when she plopped herself front and center into every family interaction.

But her intense (and developmentally normal) desire to separate from the family melts away for an hour on Monday nights, when she curls up beside us on the couch as we all snuggle together to watch Supergirl. During commercials, she loves to run across the room, pulling off her glasses and shouting, “I Am Supergirl!” while her younger sisters sit giggling in delight. She is proud to be adopted, just like Kara Danvers.

Her relationship with her younger sisters is complicated. They are our biological daughters, and this creates deep and unavoidable conflict for her. No matter how much we reassure her that we love her the same as the younger girls, she tests us.

During the scenes in Supergirl where Alex and Kara explore the painful aspects of their relationship as sisters through adoption, our whole family absorbs every word, every expression, because seeing this dynamic on mainstream television makes our family feel less alone. The fact that both Alex and Kara are kickass, strong, smart, flawed, beautiful women who work hard, cry, laugh, yell, fight, and make mistakes has been an incredible model for all of our girls.

When your family is built through adoption, you rarely see nuanced portrayals of adoptive families in the media. It’s all about extremes. Fairy tales and fantasy shows usually resort to the trope of the evil step-parents or the abusive adoptive parents, with the adoptees depicted as mistreated victims. On the other end, modern stories often present the adoptive parents as saviors who rescued abandoned orphans and gave them the perfect life. In reality, neither of these fits our adoptive family. Watching Supergirl has normalized our experience, where some parts of adoption are amazing and other parts are really difficult, but what never changes is that we are family, and we love each other. Thank you for that.

On Saturday morning, our middle daughter was having a rough time as we were trying to leave the house to come see you. Often, in these situations, our oldest daughter can act as an agitator, which escalates the problems. I pulled my oldest aside and said, “We are going to meet Supergirl. How do you think she would respond to her sister?” Instead of falling into the typical sibling patterns, she swooped over to her younger sister and comforted her. The effect of her behavior was instant and soothing. She was her best self when she was trying to be the Supergirl within.

Since I was working at a booth at C2E2, I was able to get the girls in early, and we made a beeline for the autograph area. Our plan was to get into Melissa’s line first and then head to Chyler’s. The girls grew impatient after an hour, but we plied them with hot pretzels and books to read.

When you both arrived, all three of my daughters leaped up from the floor with shining eyes. Our five-year-old is so small that my husband carried her in his arms so she see could over the autograph table. Melissa, you were the first one we met.

“Hi, guys!” you said with a big smile, taking in the three girls dressed alike. When we explained to you that our oldest likes to pretend she is you, because she is adopted and wears glasses and has long blonde hair, you went with it without missing a beat, addressing her as Supergirl.

Our oldest told you how excited she is for the upcoming episode with The Flash, and your face lit up as you expressed how you, too, couldn’t wait. Our younger girls wanted to talk about how you went bad in the previous episode after being exposed to Red Kryptonite. You looked at them and saw the concern in their faces and said with empathy, “Wasn’t that awful?” Your warmth immediately reassured them that you are the kind-hearted Supergirl that they adore.

After you signed an autograph for my daughters, I asked you to sign a piece of paper for our bullying prevention nonprofit, the Pop Culture Hero Coalition, and you did. I couldn’t wait to show my colleagues. Meeting you and Chyler was the highlight of my own personal C2E2 experience, I will admit!

After you gave everyone high fives and smiles, we said goodbye and headed to meet Chyler.

Chyler, you were amazing, so approachable, so kind. You asked each girl her name and age; you told me that you are also a mom of three kids. “We would have a lot to talk about,” you said to me, making me feel as if you could be a friend and not just a television star. My middle daughter explained that whereas our oldest is Supergirl, she likes to think of herself as Alex. You nodded and agreed that she is Alex.

When I asked you to sign a paper for the Pop Culture Hero Coalition, you enthused about how important bullying prevention is. The girls chatted with you about how awesome Alex is, and you could not have been easier to talk to. After high fives all around and autographs, we left.

Melissa and Chyler, your reflected glow surrounded all five of us for the rest of the day. Merging fantasy with reality is always fraught with expectations, but you both were the heroines our girls have grown to love.

Last night, when we all settled in to watch the latest episode of Supergirl, there was a different feel. “Hi, Kara!” the girls shouted at the screen. “Hi, Alex!” they yelled. “We know you!!!!” We plan to frame your autographs and hang them right over the television, a forever reminder of the day we met the Danvers sisters, an adoptive family that strikes a responsive chord with ours.

Carrie Goldman … ptive-mom/

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

ireactions wrote:

I'm not blind to the flaws of SUPERGIRL, having listed them exhaustively in a post that other posters inexplicably attributed to Informant.

Blech.  That's my bad.  I figured it was old complainy Informant smile


Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

That's it! I'm only saying nice things from now on!

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Unbelievable, Slider_Quinn21. I can't believe you're so determined to characterize Informant as someone who just hates FUN AND can only enjoy joyless exercises in grimdark. It's bad enough you clearly hate old people and women, but anhedonia is a serious condition and poor Informant is clearly suffering and in need of our compassion and understanding.


In all seriousness, Informant's criticisms of SUPERGIRL are pretty legitimate and reasonable. They're just criticisms in areas that I, personally, consider irrelevant in the face of how SUPERGIRL makes me feel.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Supergirl is truly one of the best shows on CBS at the moment. I love the way she brings Cat a latte in every episode, because it makes her seem like someone who isn't afraid to lower herself to a human level, despite being as powerful as she is.

Also, I like when she eats pizza or ice cream and gets really excited about it.

I think Supergirl is pretty.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Informant wrote:

That's it! I'm only saying nice things from now on!

Ha, no!  Plus....a Marvel movie is coming out soon!  We need you to rip it to shreds smile

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I liked Guardians of the Galaxy, and Ant-Man was fun. And Winter Soldier... Emily VanCamp is pretty.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I ruined everything.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Or maybe you made things better! When life gives you lemons, make lemonade.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Slider_Quinn21 has really fried my last nerve this time.

I've tolerated his antics over the years -- agreeing to plot the pilot episode of SLIDERS (2013) and submitting a sketchily incoherent treatment that didn't even make it to halfway to the ending before blowing it off to enter a screenwriting contest while promising a return to writing that we're all still waiting on. Leaving poor Informant to finish the treatment that I then scripted, at which point Slider_Quinn21 took half a year before offering a critique of the script in which he provided an opinion so vaguely unspecific that it gave the strong impression he had neglected to read past the title page. Contributing to SLIDERS (2013) afterwards by offering more and more and more ideas for the Pilot episode ("What if Arturo killed Mike Mallory?" "What if Bennish joins the sliders?) when it had been scripted for months and ideas for subsequent episodes were needed. Declaring that it would be a bad idea to start a SLIDERS twentieth anniversary special with the original sliders alive and well and home but that he'd be interested in seeing someone try and then failing to provide feedback on SLIDERS REBORN even eight months after agreeing to do so aside from writing another E-mail that gave the vague yet incredibly specific sense that he had once again not read it.

All this I could bear with aplomb and understanding because we're friends, God damn it. I never required that you make up for any of that; I never even needed you to apologize for it. But now you've broken Informant.

I'm calling in my marker. All of the other grevious misdeeds are acceptable, but this one you have to fix. And I insist you deal with this before CIVIL WAR comes out, because if I have to read Informant talking about how nice it was to see yet another superhero film climaxing in an aerial action set piece, I -- I -- I -- I -- I swear to God I will kill somebody. Specifically, I will kill myself and make it look like you did it.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

For what it's worth, I probably won't get to see Civil War in theaters. I usually can't justify spending six to ten dollars on a movie ticket, just for the pleasure of sitting in a room full of annoying teenagers who won't shut off their cell phones or shut their mouths during a movie.

I saw Batman v Superman for free after buying The Flash on blu-ray. I have $10 in free Fandango money set aside for Suicide Squad.

All of this means that there's no need to argue. I can accentuate the positive until that sucker hits home video!

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

You know, it's funny, I've never really been one to be bothered by people in movie theaters.  What's interesting is the new phenomenon of theaters where you can eat.  Informant, I know you're familiar with Studio Movie Grill and/or Alamo Drafthouse - but I know there are others across the country.  One of my friends refuses to go because there's way too much going on.  Whether it's people clacking silverware or asking for a refill or simply the server who goes around picking up plates, dropping off new ones, or handing out the bills.  When you go to Studio Movie grill, you're guaranteed at least one distraction when the server drops off the bill, and that *always* happens during act 3.

And while, yes, that's a distraction, it's never really bothered me.  I chose to see movies like Dark Knight Rises and Interstellar in more traditional theaters so there were zero distractions, but I've seen plenty of films at Studio Movie Grill and haven't been turned off by the experience.  In fact, I've always thought it was sorta efficient.  I go see movies around dinnertime anyway, those places have pretty good food, and it's nice to kill two birds with one stone.

I imagine you hate those places, Info?

And, yes, please come back and be your old self.  I've clearly broken ireactions as well. :-/

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

LAURIE: "You will not believe what he did at the movie, Mom -- "
HENRIETTA: "What'd he do now?"
LAURIE: "There was a guy texting in the theatre -- " (jabs a finger at ireactions) " -- and he threw dimes at the back of the guy's head until he put the phone away!"
ME: "That's not true. I did not throw dimes at anybody. I would never do that."
LAURIE: "You fucking liar! I saw you! And you say you do it all the time!"
ME: "I throw pennies, not dimes. I know how to budget."

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I haven't been to any of those places yet. I know they just opened up an Alamo Drafthouse in Richardson (next to that cabin with a basement, hidden deep in the woods... Supernatural joke. Never mind) but I haven't actually gone. I do imagine that it would be distracting, but for the less important mo ies it probably wouldn't matter. Their menu looks interesting anyway.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

We probably live way closer than either of us think.  I also live near the woods of Richardson haha.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I wonder if we should set up a Tumblr for Informant/Slider_Quinn21 shippers with fanvids and fanfic and GIFs and set up a Kickstarter to send them on a dream date to Studio Movie Grill. Or maybe get them in a room together to record opposing audio commentary on all the DC and Marvel movies.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I'm getting a little uncomfortable with the direction of this conversation.  smile

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

This menu at the Studio Movie Grill looks very appetizing.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

And they serve Sliders, so this thread is on topic!