Re: Rewatch Podcast - SLIDERS REBORN

Just a small follow-up --

What happened with David Peckinpah and Bill Dial could have happened to any one of us. We've all held crazy grudges to the point where they warp logic, reason, sense and basic facts. We've all engaged in ill-advised and hurtful pranks because causing people alarm and annoyance seemed more important than regarding each other with respect and kindness. Turning Quinn into a pivotal Chosen One in an interdimensional war is something any fanfic writer might misguidedly do after a long STAR WARS marathon. Turning home into a Kromagg battleground is something any artist might do when mistaking cynicism and horror for depth and meaning.

It's just that when we screw up, we're probably not doing it on a national stage, but that's merely due to circumstance. David Peckinpah had the grave misfortune to be in a very bad place when he was creating broadcast drama. Don't know much about Bill Dial other than many staffers describing him as a petty jerk and Robert Floyd describing him as a sweet and loving genius. But given that Dial spent his post-SLIDERS career getting in stupid online fights with slider1525, it's safe to assume he was a pretty messed up guy as well.

Could've been any of us. For that reason, my final SLIDERS script will be dedicated to David Peckinpah and pay tribute to some of the ideas he introduced to the show.

Re: Rewatch Podcast - SLIDERS REBORN

ireactions - I would have loved Wade as the commander of the human resistance. It would have been a perfect throwback to the pilot and also just a much better way to resolve the issue of her character.

I want to read this story now.

Re: Rewatch Podcast - SLIDERS REBORN

Have to agree with intangirble. Nice. Very apt.

"It's only a matter of time. Were I in your shoes, I would spend my last earthly hours enjoying the world. Of course, if you wish, you can spend them fighting for a lost cause.... But you know that you've lost." -Kane-

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ireactions, Commander Wade Welles is the BEST idea for handling Wade’s situation. Damn it! Where were you when they were planning this episode?

105 (edited by NDJ 2015-10-31 21:39:44)

Re: Rewatch Podcast - SLIDERS REBORN

I need to catch up on the Rewatch. I love it! So here’s my Season 2 all at once.

Time Again and World. Yes, reading it over the radio when there is a working internet seems silly but the idea of people not knowing what rights they have lost makes sense (the show specifically states that people do not remember the full Constitution, not that they have completely forgotten about it). Remember “Prince of Wails” when Arturo and Rembrandt can’t remember the full Bill of Rights? What's their excuse? Quick, list the Bill of Rights right now without looking it up. I know 1, 2, 4 and 5 off the top of my head. The rest I’ll read up on if I ever get arrested. It was a good idea that wasn’t fully conceptualized.

I always thought the sliders should take a backpack too. In Time Again and World, Rembrandt does make the slide with a bag. I guess it couldn’t be a regular thing because as practical as it is, it’s not that good a look and it’s just one more thing to keep track of. Besides what could you take that you can’t stuff in your pockets? It’s not like you can take canned goods- imagine landing hard on a bag of cans or having it fly out of the vortex and hit you. And as many times as they slide in the nick of time, having a bag would just slow them down- or it would be taken away like the timer.

Love Gods. I love how the professor, for all his intellectual high and mightiness, is still a man underneath it all. He’s the one making statements like “Gentlemen, we made a slide to heaven” and talking about nurse fantasies. He’s worse than Rembrandt!

As Time Goes By. I understood the backwards time section when it aired; I appreciated the attempt at innovation and I am not into physics beyond how it is interpreted by science fiction. (I actually looked up the adiabatic limit mentioned in “Last Days” and the only world I understood was ‘limit’). Yes, there are plot problems. For example, the people should have been speaking backwards but how are we, the viewing audience, supposed to understand the show? The compensation was the time shifts. Also, Quinn destroyed the universe by changing both the past AND the future. By saving Daelin he changed his own future- which had already happened (how was he supposed to slide into jail for a murder that was never committed) and the past events of that world- which now cannot be reconciled with the present. This is a time paradox worthy of Star Trek or The Twilight Zone!

Invasion. Organic metal seems to be a staple of science fiction. Both Stargate: Atlantis and Battlestar Galactica had a version of it.

Re: Rewatch Podcast - SLIDERS REBORN

intangirble wrote:

ireactions - I would have loved Wade as the commander of the human resistance. It would have been a perfect throwback to the pilot and also just a much better way to resolve the issue of her character.

omnimercurial wrote:

Have to agree with intangirble. Nice. Very apt.

NDJ wrote:

ireactions, Commander Wade Welles is the BEST idea for handling Wade’s situation. Damn it! Where were you when they were planning this episode?

I think I was like 12. And oh dear God, I've created a monster.

The "Commander Wade Welles" concept makes "Genesis" a little less upsetting, but "Genesis" would remain shockingly destructive to SLIDERS concept. If the sliders are no longer from a world that's just like ours, there's no basis for contrast between alt-histories and our history. The show is broken.

The home invasion was just awful. Matt Hutaff and Temporal Flux have gone into what Marc Scott Zicree meant to achieve with the Kromagg Prime arc and I think it's just ghastly.

The original plan was to reveal at the end of Season 4 that the Earth in "Genesis" wasn't home at all and that Quinn's new backstory had been a trick. That still means that, for 21 episodes, Quinn and Rembrandt would still be refugees from a devastated Earth and soldiers in an interdimensional war as opposed to relatable nomads searching for home.

It is impossible to tell SLIDERS stories properly post-"Genesis" and 21 episodes of SLIDERS where it's not possible to do SLIDERS stories is way too many. This should have been, at most, a 6 episode arc. Maybe a three-episode season-ender where home is invaded and a two-episode season premiere where it's liberated.

(But ireactions! Haven't you also broken the SLIDERS concept with SLIDERS REBORN? Well, yes. But it's only a three-part story with a prelude and an interlude -- and it's obviously not a permanent situation.)

A Season 4 without John or Sabrina could have worked. But I would have gone for a simpler route.

Here's a Season 4 version of SLIDERS REBORN: two years after "This Slide of Paradise," a teenaged girl named Laurel on Earth Prime wanders into Quinn's basement and accidentally triggers the sliding machine. She ends up on an Earth where anyone under 25 is a slave who has to earn their freedom.

She is rescued by Quinn; he detected the sliding signature of his original hardware and thought it might be Wade or Rembrandt searching for him. Quinn tries to return Laurel home only to discover his sliding in to investigate also scattered the photon trail. He can't send her home.

He admits that he deleted his home coordinates two years ago and has been sliding alone for a long time.

What happened to Maggie? She encountered a double of Steven and chose to remarry and remain. Why didn't Quinn go home? Shortly after "This Slide of Paradise," Quinn suffered a head injury. He recovered, but a CAT scan revealed the Kromagg tracking device in his brain. Inoperable. Impossible to remove even with the most advanced surgical techniques. Powered by a zero-point energy process that draws fuel from Quinn's body. Programmed to send an alert should Quinn ever stop sliding.

Quinn dared not return home, not even for a moment -- because he feared he'd never be able to bring himself to leave again. He deleted the coordinates from his timer to avoid temptation.

Quinn Mallory is a genius. His timer can take him to any dimension. He's formed trade routes and relationships across a hundred worlds; he's built machines that can process and collate data from a thousand different histories. He has ended hundreds of wars, brokered peace between nations, ended water and energy crises, saved thousands of lives and seen more than anyone can imagine. Quinn Mallory can do anything. Except go home.

For two years, Quinn has rejected every offer of companionship in his endless journey, but Laurel offers him something no one else can -- she is a piece of the home he'll never see again. And SLIDERS begins once again: an experienced, capable, hardened slider and a young girl who will become Quinn's confidante and protege.

I would have released Cleavant and Kari from their contracts as well as Sabrina -- once Rickman died, the Maggie arc was over; once Rembrandt and Wade made it home, their stories were over too. But I would have asked them to guest-star as doubles throughout the season.

There. Season 4. How hard was that?

Re: Rewatch Podcast - SLIDERS REBORN

It would certainly make "Prophets and Loss" more palatable, where Quinn and Rembrandt are upbeat and cheerful. Because as aired, "Prophets and Loss" makes no sense whatsoever for the characters. How can Quinn and Rembrandt be so lighthearted? So cheerful? So upbeat? So at ease? Quinn's mother is a Kromagg prisoner. Everyone Rembrandt has ever known or cared about is enslaved or dead. Bennish. Alesha. Danielle. Daelin. Wing. The Professor's son. Rembrandt's parents. Hurley. Wade.
And furthermore, how can the sliders be so utterly indifferent to the resistance back home? The timer lets them slide back to Earth Prime. How can they be joking around and hanging out? Why aren't they periodically sliding back to Earth Prime with supplies for the people fighting and dying for their world?

I thought more-or-less the same thing when I watched that episode. I basically said, "So, Wade is in serious trouble and their homeworld is too. And they don't seem to care a lick!" Maybe thet's the subliminal reason why I stopped watching Sliders in the middle of that episode (I finally picked it up again a few weeks later). They were too darn apathetic!

Author, artist, sci-fi nerd, rebel against the world, and self-proclaimed eccentric.

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ireactions

First, I don’t think that killing Wade would have been a good idea- not right off the bat. The whole reason SyFy bought Sliders was for its fan base- some of which was based on the characters not just the concept. There was already so much change happening. I think it would have been too much all at once- better to ease the audience into her death. The problem is, they didn’t do this right either. 

I do agree with you, I signed up for adventure- not a search for a weapon of mass destruction. But I LOVED the group. If they had kept Sabrina Lloyd then they wouldn’t have had to resort to the obvious science fiction of aliens. It could have gone something like this: Remmy and Wade are on a non Kromagg infested Earth Prime. They were excited to be home, but their time away has changed them and they don’t feel comfortable on Earth anymore. Quinn shows up (after having dumped Maggie off with her people) and the FBI pounces. Bennish has pulled a “Last Days” Einstein and no one can get sliding to work. This, coupled with a host of adjustment issues, leads Quinn and friends to realize it’s not their time to be home and they voluntarily slide off together into the sunset. Quinn’s last line from Genesis “We’ll be back. You can count on it,” stays the same.

So now it’s not “will they ever find home”, its “will they ever be ready to return home”?

Maybe they take Bennish, maybe they don’t. Maybe they run into PTSS Professor maybe they don’t. Maybe they run into Colin (the brother of a dead Quinn) or Logan, maybe they don’t. The original mission, of wonder and exploration with all its possibilities, remains alive.

I disagree, though, that the culture of other worlds can’t be explored, appreciated, and compared just because their world isn’t our world (although the idea that it isn’t, stings). Theirs is a close enough copy that it still stands as a surrogate for ours. Revisionists note that from day one there have been clues throughout the series that their Earth was never our Earth. If this is true, we can hardly be sore now.

As you have stated several times, anything can be a Sliders episode (or am I giving you credit for someone else’s thoughts?). They were trying to go big because so much had changed. The search for home was always their main goal and with Sabrina Lloyd gone that was off the table. Lloyd may not have been integral to the show staying on the air, but she was integral to the old storyline. Without something catastrophic, there was no way to have Rembrandt back without Wade. So how do you bring back the search for home, realign the group, keep the old audience, AND entice new viewers? Use an unexplored but previously used villain to make the old home uninhabitable and make a ‘real’ home somewhere else!

In as far as the idea and goals of season 4 goes, I think they did a slightly below average job. Could they have done better? Hell yes. Could they have done worse? They did.

Re: Rewatch Podcast - SLIDERS REBORN

NDJ wrote:

If they had kept Sabrina Lloyd then they wouldn’t have had to resort to the obvious science fiction of aliens. It could have gone something like [...]Quinn and friends to realize it’s not their time to be home and they voluntarily slide off together into the sunset. Quinn’s last line from Genesis “We’ll be back. You can count on it,” stays the same. So now it’s not “will they ever find home”, its “will they ever be ready to return home”?

I guess. I imagine the sliders needing a stronger motive to keep sliding besides home being less welcoming than hoped -- although there was a SLIDERS comic book that had nearly the same decision made.

I find that "Genesis" makes it really difficult to swallow Quinn and Rembrandt taking down dictators and fascists every week while failing to do anything about the Kromaggs. And given that there was no Kromagg invasion in our world, Quinn and Rembrandt no longer have a common frame of reference with the audience.

The Earth in the Pilot was *never* 'our' Earth, but it was close enough as a surrogate, as you say. That's no longer the case with "Genesis." I mean, sure, "Prophets and Loss" has people being incinerated, but it's still a better world to live in than "Genesis."

My Season 4 proposal was for Jerry O'Connell and a new co-star. The idea of keeping the show going with Jerry, Sabrina and Cleavant -- it doesn't really sit well with me. I don't feel like those three characters function properly without the Professor; he's a necessity for contrasting against the other three especially in screen presence and temperament.

The Quinn Mallory character isn't really designed to be a leading man as much as he's meant to be an advance scout and a juvenile who inspires his teacher. Rembrandt and Wade are meant to react to crazy situations like a normal person; Sabrina's performance plays it for drama and Cleavant's performance makes trauma and terror funny. And the Professor is really the leader of the sliders even if he comes last in the credits.

I don't really feel the Quinn character should be the leader for Rembrandt and Wade; I just don't see Quinn having that kind of presence. I see Jerry's acting being more appropriate to leadership roles with younger co-stars -- the way Quinn mentored his younger self in "The Guardian."

The only way Sabrina would have stayed on SLIDERS anyway would have been if Peckinpah had left and Tracy Torme had returned and brought John Rhys-Davies back with him -- at which point, you might as well just do "Slide Effects," declare everything from "The Exodus" to "Paradise" to be a Kromagg mind game and get back to the business of sliding.

I guess if I had to find some way to make Jerry, Cleavant and Sabrina work without John, I would cheat, steal an idea from Temporal Flux and bring in a female-double of Arturo.

NDJ wrote:

In as far as the idea and goals of season 4 goes, I think they did a slightly below average job. Could they have done better? Hell yes. Could they have done worse? They did.

It continues to terrify me to this day that Keith Damron, one of the driving forces of SLIDERS in the Sci-Fi years, is now teaching film and television production at the University of Eastern Michigan. I hope to God his students are slow learners.

110 (edited by NDJ 2015-11-01 11:07:49)

Re: Rewatch Podcast - SLIDERS REBORN

I like the original four as well and thought each brought something special to the table- none of whom could really be replaced but I don't like "it was all a dream" or "it was all mind control" as an excuse; it's lazy and disrespectful to the viewers who have invested their time and energy into believing what was shown to them. It can work for an episode but for half a season? I would have grudgingly taken it from Torme because of the behind the scenes drama. I understand the end of season 3 was a mess but clean it up, don't pretend it didn't exist. I like the idea of Arturo being left behind in PTSS being the real one and finding him. This could have resulted in some great character moments as they have to reconnect with a new/old version of someone that they not only saw die but had a relationship with and he has to deal with issues of abandonment.

Truthfully, I like the idea that "Genesis" Earth wasn't Earth Prime ("Exodus" did not sell me that it was) but it still leaves the Wade issue as well as another one: Did Quinn really leave his friends on a random Earth? That would create huge issues of trust and reliability. Also, how many times can you dangle "It's home! Wait- no it isn't" in front of the audience and the sliders? There's a fine line between sad but true and straight up cruel.

My understanding is that Lloyd would have worked with Peckinpah, she couldn't work with Wuhrer. So any idea that includes Wade but not Maggie was totally feasible. The problem was Peckinpah preferred Wuhrer. JRD wasn't coming back with Peckinpah there. That's why I left that as a possibility rather than a necessity.

As for Quinn leading the group- he can't stay the impetuous kid forever, he needs to grow up. By season 3 the professor was backing off a bit anyway. I think it might be a bit quick for him to be mentoring a kid when he's still working out how to be a grown up himself.

Oh, first and last are honored positions in the credits. People remember the first and last things they see more than anything in the middle. Also notice that his name is the only one accompanied by the role he plays.

Re: Rewatch Podcast - SLIDERS REBORN

Which Actresses would you envision as an.effective and well suited Femme Arturo?

"It's only a matter of time. Were I in your shoes, I would spend my last earthly hours enjoying the world. Of course, if you wish, you can spend them fighting for a lost cause.... But you know that you've lost." -Kane-

Re: Rewatch Podcast - SLIDERS REBORN

omnimercurial wrote:

Which Actresses would you envision as an.effective and well suited Femme Arturo?

I would choose Joanna Lumley.

NDJ wrote:

I like the original four as well and thought each brought something special to the table- none of whom could really be replaced but I don't like "it was all a dream" or "it was all mind control" as an excuse; it's lazy and disrespectful to the viewers who have invested their time and energy into believing what was shown to them. It can work for an episode but for half a season? I would have grudgingly taken it from Torme because of the behind the scenes drama. I understand the end of season 3 was a mess but clean it up, don't pretend it didn't exist.

Back on the old Bboard, slider1525 wrote a lengthy plot outline where the Professor, following the sliders, encounters the animal human hybrids of "This Slide of Paradise" and revisits Michael York's lab and gradually reunites with his friends one by one. It was very amusing and sincere, but also exhausting. I have read every Season 6 fanfic ever written with the point-by-point reversals of Seasons 3 - 5 and they, too, are utterly draining and a massive distraction. Television is best, in my view, when its aims and goals are simple and straightforward. The sliders are lost in the multiverse, trying to find their way back home. Simple. Elegant. Beautiful.

Yes, "Slide Effects" is a massive copout, but I'd argue that getting Quinn, Wade, Rembrandt and Arturo back onscreen together immediately is far more important than anything else.

But then again, I honestly don't think "Slide Effects" was even meant as a way of deleting the Season 3 episodes. Torme presented it to me that way when we had an online chat as his solution to getting rid of the episodes he didn't like. But the 2009 interview on EP.COM revealed the story had been conceived in November 1996 before John had been fired. It was meant to be a Season 4 premiere and his sequel to "Invasion." In an interview, Torme said:

“I have a very trippy, surrealistic show in mind involving the Kromaggs. It wouldn’t be us landing in the middle of another invasion; it would start in a way that you wouldn’t know it was a Kromagg show.”

With that in mind, the story is clearly not about removing episodes from continuity. Instead, it's about the Kromaggs as manipulators offering the sliders the ultimate temptation. The Kromaggs prey upon the sliders' homesickness and despair, offering them a facsimile: a permanent and eternal illusion of home in exchange for information that will let the Kromaggs invade the actual home Earth. The Kromaggs point out that the sliders, with random sliding, have no chance of ever getting back to where they came from and even if they do, the Kromaggs will destroy it. Surely there's no shame in accepting this beautiful lie of living happy and content lives in a world where sliding doesn't exist and they never left their homes and loved ones?

But the sliders refuse. Sliding took them away from everything they knew, but it revealed their ingenuity, their strength of character, the power of ideas and the friendship between them. They wouldn't trade sliding for anything. They escape the Kromaggs and resume sliding. And so, Season 4 would begin with the sliders reaffirming their commitment to each other and to their adventure.

If mishandled, it could have been a copout; presented correctly, it's a life-affirming character study that communicates the joy of sliding and the wonder of the multiverse as well as the bonds between the quartet.

Also, with time rewound to the Pilot, it's a way of introducing the show to a new audience and offering some nostalgia for the fans.

NDJ wrote:

Lloyd would have worked with Peckinpah, she couldn't work with Wuhrer. So any idea that includes Wade but not Maggie was totally feasible. The problem was Peckinpah preferred Wuhrer. JRD wasn't coming back with Peckinpah there.

It's not as simple as that. Sabrina was very upset when John was fired. She held his farewell party at her apartment. She was devastated by his absence. Kari's behaviour was indeed a deciding factor, but Kari or no Kari, Sabrina didn't want to do SLIDERS anymore. Her ultimatum was absurd; she knew full well that Peckinpah would choose Kari. If that hadn't gotten her fired, she would have used salary demands to get removed.

Only John's return would have convinced Sabrina to stay. And John would only have returned if Tracy Torme returned. Don't get me wrong, John and Tracy had tremendous animosity towards each other, same as John and Peckinpah -- but Tracy considered John's talent and character worth any aggravation.

Interestingly, in the Season 2 interviews, John was extremely critical and dismissive of Tracy Torme's writing. After Season 3, John suddenly revised his opinion and spoke extremely well of Tracy; clearly, after Peckinpah, John realized what Tracy had been fighting against.

Had Tracy returned, he would have asked John to re-sign for Season 4 and John would have said yes and Sabrina would also have remained as well.

NDJ wrote:

As for Quinn leading the group- he can't stay the impetuous kid forever, he needs to grow up. By season 3 the professor was backing off a bit anyway. I think it might be a bit quick for him to be mentoring a kid when he's still working out how to be a grown up himself.

I put in the two-year time gap so he could be a mentor to a new slider who wouldn't know which end of the vortex was which.

As for Quinn -- we now enter the arena of personal interpretation. Let us be clear: this is strictly *my* vision of Quinn Mallory and it is not Jerry's vision or even exactly Tracy's vision (although it's close).

Quinn Mallory isn't a leader. Good leaders need to be good with people and Quinn is one of the most withdrawn, isolated characters ever created. As scripted before casting, Quinn was a socially awkward geek. Then Jerry O'Connell was hired to play him and Jerry, for whatever reason, did not play Quinn as socially awkward at all. The Pilot script has Quinn too terrified to ask a girl out on a date and he's laughed at for his inability to receive any woman's undivided attention. The scenes were cut from the script and with good reason; can you imagine Jerry O'Connell having trouble approaching women?

And so, we have a charismatic, attractive, confident, athletic young man who avoids women and labours in secrecy and obscurity in a basement laboratory rather than a university lab. Wade is practically throwing herself at Quinn and if you watch Jerry's performance carefully, Jerry plays Quinn as being perfectly aware of Wade's infatuation but cautiously avoiding eye-contact and direct engagement.

The result of Jerry's performance of Torme's script: Quinn is alone because he chooses to be alone. Because he builds walls around himself to isolate himself from others. He is uncomfortable dealing with people; he doesn't even really have *friends* -- he banters with his classmates but is intimate with none of them. Wade has never even been invited to Quinn's house until Smarter-Quinn's behaviour forces Quinn to invite her over.

One of the most-cited plotholes in "The Guardian" is Quinn's refusal to reveal his secret to the other sliders -- that he permanently injured his school bully with a baseball bat. This isn't an error, in my view: Quinn is withdrawn. The backstory "The Guardian" gives us: Quinn skipped two grades, he was smaller than his peers, he was abused, he was later traumatized by his father's death. And while Quinn will function and improve, I think that Quinn's withdrawn, self-inflicted isolation is what makes the character complex and fascinating.

It's also a neat subversion of a heroic type; it's like Torme wrote Q from the James Bond movies and then essentially hired Daniel Craig to play him while splitting the actual James Bond role between the Professor and Rembrandt and Wade.

So, my feeling is that if there's a need to write Quinn as a more conventional leading man type, it'd be best to write some other character who isn't Quinn Mallory. Quinn's just not a leader in the conventional sense; he's an anarchist who passes notes and information to the actual leader and acts independently to support the group. He doesn't command situations; he operates at the fringes. He occasionally *looks* like the leader ("Prince of Wails), but he's really the idea man. And that's totally fine; not everyone needs to be Sean Connery.

That's what makes SLIDERS so interesting to me; conventional roles are twisted and subverted. The leading man character is a troubled geek, the wise older man is an arrogant ass who is deeply insecure, the leading lady starlet is a mousy firebrand and the muscle is actually the comic relief in the form of a trauma victim played for laughs.

Behind the scenes information courtesy of Temporal Flux.

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ireactions wrote:

Yes, "Slide Effects" is a massive copout, but I'd argue that getting Quinn, Wade, Rembrandt and Arturo back onscreen together immediately is far more important than anything else.

If mishandled, it could have been a copout; presented correctly, it's a life-affirming character study that communicates the joy of sliding and the wonder of the multiverse as well as the bonds between the quartet.

There is some true to this- if handled correctly.

ireactions wrote:

It's not as simple as that. Sabrina was very upset when John was fired. She held his farewell party at her apartment. She was devastated by his absence. Kari's behaviour was indeed a deciding factor, but Kari or no Kari, Sabrina didn't want to do SLIDERS anymore. Her ultimatum was absurd; she knew full well that Peckinpah would choose Kari. If that hadn't gotten her fired, she would have used salary demands to get removed.

I am clearly not as versed as you are about the Sabrina Lloyd situation (although I was aware of the salary demands) so I will have to defer to your reasoning on that.

ireactions wrote:

Jerry plays Quinn as being perfectly aware of Wade's infatuation but cautiously avoiding eye-contact and direct engagement.

I didn't see this. I read it as being oblivious. They do actually hang out- they have plans to go to a hockey game.

ireactions wrote:

The result of Jerry's performance of Torme's script: Quinn is alone because he chooses to be alone. Because he builds walls around himself to isolate himself from others. He is uncomfortable dealing with people; he doesn't even really have *friends* -- he banters with his classmates but is intimate with none of them. Wade has never even been invited to Quinn's house until Smarter-Quinn's behaviour forces Quinn to invite her over.

One of the most-cited plotholes in "The Guardian" is Quinn's refusal to reveal his secret to the other sliders -- that he permanently injured his school bully with a baseball bat. This isn't an error, in my view: Quinn is withdrawn. The backstory "The Guardian" gives us: Quinn skipped two grades, he was smaller than his peers, he was abused, he was later traumatized by his father's death. And while Quinn will function and improve, I think that Quinn's withdrawn, self-inflicted isolation is what makes the character complex and fascinating. 

That's what makes SLIDERS so interesting to me; conventional roles are twisted and subverted. The leading man character is a troubled geek, the wise older man is an arrogant ass who is deeply insecure, the leading lady starlet is a mousy firebrand and the muscle is actually the comic relief in the form of a trauma victim played for laughs.

I totally agree. And I never saw "The Guardian" as having plotholes- I saw the injury he inflicted as a reason for some of his social reserve. As for not telling the others, I would never tell anybody, no matter how close I was to them, that I did something like that unless I had to- like Quinn did.

I just don't see why the group needs an official leader (and Arturo was terrible with people). They are not a military unit taking orders and they always discuss what they want to do. But if someone disagrees, that person does what he/she thinks is right and the rest are forced to support him/her (Quinn always got the blame for this but Wade and Rembrandt were just as guilty). Arturo was the father figure, mentor, and voice of reason, but when was the last time any of them did what he said? When was the first time? What they need is different points of view that play against each other.

Re: Rewatch Podcast - SLIDERS REBORN

In the Cleavant Derricks interview on EP.COM -- at least in the original version -- Cleavant established that Sabrina was absolutely miserable after John was fired. Kari Wuhrer did upset Sabrina, but Sabrina was upset to begin with. After the original version was posted, Cleavant contacted the EP.COM webmaster and asked for his negative remarks about Kari Wuhrer and the Sci-Fi Channel to be removed and the webmaster, not wanting to do anything to harm Cleavant's professional relationships, agreed to perform a rewrite.

Sabrina and John were very close; you can see here Sabrina's memo inviting people to attend her farewell party for John.
http://dimensionofcontinuity.com/sabin.jpg

I feel like the Quinn/Wade/Rembrandt/Arturo quartet requires Arturo as an instigator with experience. His presence as a flawed father figure establishes the characters as a family. Arturo is an arrogant ass, but he's also someone who inspires people to follow him straight into hell.

It's also essential that he is Quinn's counterpart but as part of an older generation, the way Rembrandt is to Wade. It's weird, but once Arturo left the show, the onscreen dynamics lost the sense that Quinn and Wade are *extremely* young adults. Onscreen, youth needs age to contrast in order to come off as youthful.

I just don't think Quinn, Wade and Rembrandt function properly as characters without Arturo -- and, to be quite frank, I don't think the actors function particularly well in their roles without him, either. This is not their fault; they were cast as part of an ensemble, after all.

Jerry was, at the time, one of those actors who would only read his own dialogue and then play scenes as himself. If you watch KANGAROO JACK or CROSSING JORDAN or MISSION TO MARS, Jerry plays cops, astronauts and barbers in the same way: as a goofy playboy. He played Quinn the same way. Part of this was unavoidable; he was a football player type playing a geek, after all. But in Seasons 1 - 2, Jerry is incredibly convincing when portraying Quinn's intelligence, moral integrity and intense curiosity -- and I suspect this was largely John's influence on him.

The reason I suspect John elevates every other actor in his work: John is genuinely invested in the scripts. John reads all the scenes, not just his own. You can see John in a behind the scenes feature marvelling at the Kromagg organic metal. So he actually knows the whole story, not just his lines. And he is the sort of actor who constantly wants to discuss scenes with the other actors, work out pacing and rhythm, redistribute lines, etc.. The result is a very clear sense of the relationships between the characters and their roles in each scene. Take that out of the equation and leave Jerry, Sabrina and Cleavant to their own devices -- and then things start to shift.

Cleavant is a really good actor, but his clownish comic timing works better with Arturo's stately sarcasm and pronouncements to compare. Sabrina has a certain stagey quality to her line deliveries. She's more focused on hitting certain points of emotion instead of making her dialogue sound spontaneous and unrehearsed. Butwhen working with John, it becomes a rhythmic rapport. And Jerry -- Jerry in the 90s struck me as a genius-actor who was content to be a hack, but working with John made Jerry put a lot of himself into his work.

John is indispensable. Essential. At least to me.

As for whether Quinn is aware of Wade's attraction or not, we've hit an area of personal interpretation. In the scripts, Quinn was most definitely not aware of Wade's interest in him. Jerry's performance, in my opinion, introduces (unintentional?) ambiguity; other viewers don't see it that way.

The reason I started to think Quinn was perfectly aware of Wade's feelings for him the whole time; Wade indicates, in "Last Days," that there are some things Quinn doesn't know about her, presumably, her feelngs towards him. Quinn responds to that by trying to kiss her. But what about in the Pilot when Quinn asks Wade, "What's with the tears?" as though he doesn't realize she's in love with him. To me, that struck me as Quinn foolishly thinking himself invincible as youth often do.

But again. I'm not 'right' anymore than you are 'wrong' -- we're just looking at art with different views. In a recent chat with Matt Hutaff, I commented that I think "The Guardian" is a retcon that attempts to bridge the gap between the scripted Quinn and the onscreen Quinn by offering an explanation for how Jerry O'Connell could lack confidence with the skipped two grades backstory.

As supporting evidence, I cited how the Pilot indicates in a photo that Quinn was in his late-teens when his father died; Jerry plays young-Quinn in the photograph. "The Guardian" changes that to Quinn being played by an 11-year-old actor when his father died in order to make Michael Mallory's death more traumatic.

Matt disagreed. He doesn't think "The Guardian" was a retcon at all; his view is that if Jerry hadn't played Quinn in the photograph in the Pilot, the viewer would have been confused by who the boy in the photo was meant to be.

Another interesting instance: Temporal Flux once described his vision of Conrad Bennish Jr. to me. Bennish, to TF, is someone in a perpetual time warp, representing what was at the forefront of culture but from decades in the past. Bennish dressed and acted like a 60s hippie because hippies were the 'cool' thing when Tracy Torme was a child, but Bennish is only capable of representing the exterior details of the culture without any of the inherent values or deeper meaning behind the movement. That's how I see Bennish too; he's constantly behind. In SLIDERS REBORN, he's a relic of the dot-com boom and bust from the 90s.

Matt disagrees with this take on Bennish. To Matt, Bennish is simply the token pothead student to round out the class in the Pilot and seeing more than that is me adding things to the character as opposed to seeing what's already there. And that is the nature of art. We all look at the same thing and see something different.

Oddly, the skipped-two-grades backstory is in the original draft of "Gillian of the Spirits."

Behind the scenes information courtesy of Temporal Flux.

115 (edited by NDJ 2015-11-01 14:32:20)

Re: Rewatch Podcast - SLIDERS REBORN

The skipping two grades backstory actually fixes a problem that I did not see addressed here (or maybe I am not looking hard enough)- Quinn was only 20/21 when he started sliding, yet he had just started the second year of his graduate studies.

The scripts place him as being closer to 25 because of grad school (and I have heard 23 for the same reason) and because Smarter Quinn is married. "Into the Mystic" however, puts year of birth as 1973 and the pilot states he started sliding in 1994. If he had graduated high school at the standard 17/18 then there's no way he could be in his second year of grad school (even geniuses have to take general education classes and abide by course load standards plus he'd needs to work to pay for all his equipment). Allowing him to graduate high school at 15/16 gives him a standard 4 year undergrad 2 year grad school education arc, assist with the social awkwardness aspect, and supports the idea of the 'boy genius.'

116 (edited by intangirble 2015-11-01 14:28:52)

Re: Rewatch Podcast - SLIDERS REBORN

ireactions wrote:

Back on the old Bboard, slider1525 wrote a lengthy plot outline where the Professor, following the sliders, encounters the animal human hybrids of "This Slide of Paradise" and revisits Michael York's lab and gradually reunites with his friends one by one.

I feel like I've asked this before, but can we read a copy of this anywhere?

For that matter, the original interview with Cleavant Derricks, as well. And John's behind the scenes feature with the Kromagg metal. I feel like there's a lot of Sliders history that I missed out on, not being in the online fandom all this time. I'd like to catch up.

Re: Rewatch Podcast - SLIDERS REBORN

The behind the scenes featurette is here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fT3PYXDPpHQ

I consider it to be one of the grimmest and darkest pieces of SLIDERS. Ever. Just terrifying. At one point, Sabrina jokes about Jerry's manic overperformance as an actor. Later, Cleavant expresses fear of the sparks from on-set effects and Sabrina tells him not to worry and that the production will step in if there's any real danger. John proceeds to laugh darkly at the naivete of actors who think that people on the set would actually care about protecting them from harm. John later declares that the only reason Cleavant stays on the show is because he has to feed his four children and Sabrina jokes that they are all getting fired.

...

I never really noticed Quinn's age as a child. I just saw Quinn as 'young.' As I got older and more aware of details, I thought Quinn had to be 23 - 24 and would be actually older than Jerry, but "Into the Mystic" and "The Guardian" indicated that Jerry is only one year older than Quinn.

Jerry is a very good actor, but there are times when he's phoned in his work. I think one of his best performances is the Season 3/4 credits voiceover. His work there is so detailed, so considered. "What if you found a portal to a parallel universe?" he asks in a questioning, thoughtful tone. "What if you could slide into a thousand different worlds?" he says in a slightly challenging tone, daring the listener to imagine those worlds. "Where it's the same year and you're the same person," he continues with a playful, almost laughing manner -- "but everything else is different." The humour vanishes; his voice is suddenly apprehensive. "And," he finishes in a haunted, lost delivery: "what if you can't find your way home?" It's extraordinary! There's such thought put into how to sell each line.

And then you have "Slidecage," where Quinn thinks Maggie is dead and the script portrays Quinn as shattered and broken and despondent -- but Jerry plays the scene like Quinn is bored, like he doesn't understand that in this scene, Quinn honestly thinks Maggie has died. What's the difference? When John was around, Jerry seemed to know what the hell he was performing; after John left, Jerry just memorized his lines.

That said, I think Jerry grew out of this sort of hackwork a long time ago.

The original Cleavant interview wasn't archived, sadly, but there were almost no direct quotes from Cleavant anyway. It consisted largely of Matt's recollections of meeting Cleavant when Cleavant was doing a CD signing. Cleavant described Kari Wuhrer as "a little abrasive" and that he felt the Season 4 reworking for Maggie "did little good" and that Cleavant felt the Sci-Fi Channel had no interest in SLIDERS, seeking only to get its fans to watch the Channel's other programming. Sci-Fi did not support the show after Season 4, had no intention of renewing it for Season 5 until ratings forced them to do so, made no plans to renew it for Season 6 despite the ratings, and this pissed Cleavant off. A lot.

Cleavant then asked Matt to rewrite the article. Cleavant's remarks about Kari were removed. He was now "full of praise" for the Sci-Fi era writers and grateful to Sci-Fi for renewing the show. Ah, business.

Cleavant was also on very good terms with David Peckinpah. The Derricks and Peckinpahs had family evenings together. I'm told that this was, again, something Cleavant did because he wished to stay on good terms with business partners and was not one to be hostile anyway; it did not indicate that Cleavant in any way approved of Peckinpah's approach to SLIDERS, John or Sabrina.

Sliders1525's outline -- I can't find it. It was likely lost due to the god-awful web service that used to host this Bboard. Stay the hell away from Hosting Check, everyone. Sliders1525's outline was completely insane and absurd and ridiculous (sorry) -- but you could say the same of my writing, too. It was basically Arturo facing off against the leftovers of "This Slide of Paradise" and wandering around the location, gathering clues that would eventually lead to a reunion of the original cast. On one level, it was really silly -- the thought of John Rhys-Davies confronting those silly characters and doing a sequel to the worst episode of television ever made is really difficult to visualize.

At the same time, I had to admire it. I've brought the sliders back to life in two different ways, but it has to be said that I always used shortcuts in order to skip ahead to the ending I wanted -- Quinn, Wade, Rembrandt and Arturo reunited, the Kromagg Prime plots dismissed. Most other Season 6 writers took a character-by-character, plot-by-plot approach to undoing Seasons 3 - 5. Most of them are unreadably incoherent. It's a problem with the material, not the writers. There is no real thematic connection between revealing that the wrong Arturo slid, discovering that the Wade in "Requiem" was a clone, sticking Colin, revealing the Kromagg Prime story to be a falsehood, discovering that the real Earth Prime is safe. It's attempting to do a sequel to five different stories. Even a resurrected Ernest Hemingway couldn't take on these tasks and wring a coherent tale out of it.

Nevertheless, I have to appreciate these writers trying to put some real effort into the exercise instead of using shortcuts, cheat codes, time gaps, etc..

118 (edited by intangirble 2015-11-01 20:02:59)

Re: Rewatch Podcast - SLIDERS REBORN

Thank you, ireactions, for what you could give us, even if it's not the full picture.

I need to watch the behind-the-scenes reel now. For a production that, at least in its first two seasons, was so lovely, it sure was plagued with an underlying negativity and fear.

When I watch a show, I want to think the actors I love are well cared for, respected for the amazing work they do and treated with kindness and dignity. It's painful every time I'm reminded that this wasn't the case at all for these people.

Re: Rewatch Podcast - SLIDERS REBORN

I think I may have skewed what the featurette was like. It's really cute. They look so happy. The sliders are in their prime. And they're kidding around and the chemistry between them is so natural and genuine and beautiful. I frequently watch this clip before writing SLIDERS REBORN dialogue.

But every single joke they make as they're relaxing between setups -- they're all jokes that would come horrifically true. They did all get fired. Someone actually did die on set. Cleavant really did stick with the show for five seasons because, well, come on, it was a living.

Re: Rewatch Podcast - SLIDERS REBORN

Now that I've watched it, I see what you mean. It's actually cute, but darkly prophetic.

I always thought/hoped that Cleavant just really loved Sliders that much and didn't want to be the last original cast member to jump ship, but I guess the alternative is more realistic.

I know he does really love his fans, though. I'd love to see him at a convention someday.

Re: Rewatch Podcast - SLIDERS REBORN

intangirble wrote:

Now that I've watched it, I see what you mean. It's actually cute, but darkly prophetic.

I always thought/hoped that Cleavant just really loved Sliders that much and didn't want to be the last original cast member to jump ship, but I guess the alternative is more realistic.

I know he does really love his fans, though. I'd love to see him at a convention someday.

I see no reason why Cleavant didn't stay with SLIDERS for both financial and emotional reasons. There was a repulsive poster on the previous version of this Bboard who referred to Cleavant as "the racial hire" and declared Cleavant had no right to get top billing in Season 5 as he was the black guy.

When I rebuilt this Bboard, I sent E-mails to every single poster to welcome them back here -- except that particular poster. This is a SLIDERS message board, for God's sake.

And yet -- there is a kernel of truth there in that Hollywood's products are marketed largely to white males. Cleavant is an excellent actor. In Season 1, I adore his comic routine. And when Rembrandt is given a darker side in Season 2, Cleavant integrates it seamlessly into the character. In Season 4, Cleavant really sells Rembrandt's trauma and shell shock. I'm not really into music, but Cleavant is clearly a magnificent musician and singer. And he bought Matt Hutaff a sandwich. Chicken salad. Heavy on the mayo.

But I must grimly accept that Cleavant's offers were sparser than his castmates' -- probably lots of guest-star roles and stage roles, probably few, if any, offers for leading roles. So of course he stayed on SLIDERS. It was business.

It's really unfair, because any Caucasian actor with 1/3 of Cleavant's talents would have three times the career.

That said, I don't doubt that Cleavant also stayed for the fans. It is impossible that he only stayed for the fans, but he did love SLIDERS. SLIDERS showcased his musical, comedic and dramatic talents with more range than any role before or after -- mainly because he got to play doubles. The business and the emotional reasons are not mutually exclusive.

Re: Rewatch Podcast - SLIDERS REBORN

I don't really worry about staying on topic for this Bboard, but having gone off on tangents distant from the Rewatch Podcast, I feel I should announce the latest podcast, reviewing "Common Ground" and "Virtual Slide."

http://rewatchpodcast.podomatic.com/ent … 6_20-08_00

Cory E-mails me whenever a new podcast is up. I'll be editing the thread title to reflect the latest podcast when he does this, unless Tom beats me to it!

123 (edited by NDJ 2015-11-03 15:43:16)

Re: Rewatch Podcast - SLIDERS REBORN

I am still behind on the Rewatch Podcast so here are my thoughts on season three.

“Double Cross”- It seems highly unlikely that Quinn hooked up with Logan. Although they were in sync he specifically said things were moving too fast and he also felt like something was off. It’s like Back to the Future when Lorraine tells Marty, who she’s been chasing the whole movie, that kissing him is like kissing her brother. It’s not like “Love Gods” where it DEFINITELY happened.

Also, Logan kind of had to be Quinn’s double. It opens up another set of possibilities (even if they are not explored) and reminds Quinn, once again, that he doesn’t know everything. It also allows everybody to have a double on this world.

“The Dream Masters”- Dumbest episode ever. Aside from the fact that someone (an angry relative) would have shot up the Dream Master den long ago, how the hell do they get the drugs into their hand without it leaching into their own systems? This the FIRST problem.

“The Prince of Slides”- Women can’t ascend to the throne? Also, if professor is a guru for all knowledge that falls under the umbrella of science, then he really is under appreciated on his home world and has every right to a pompous ass!

“Paradise Lost”- People drink urine to lose weight, smear bird poop on their face to get rid of wrinkles and were reported to lick toads to get high. In light of this, is worm turd eating for youth really THAT outrageous?

Also, why is Quinn mad at Wade when they are in the cave? She didn't say anything about not wanting to carrying the dynamite, yet he gives her attitude about being uncomfortable carrying it. I guess he could be jealous because she was getting close to Parker? He has been jealous before, but at this point that seems like an incredible stretch. It just seems like a moment of unnecessary meanness.

"The Last of Eden"- So Wade never knew the professor was sick, but the other two did. No wonder she was more upset than Rembrandt and Quinn; she had no opportunity to prepare for a time when he wouldn't be there.

“The Other Slide of Darkness”- Rickman’s face changing is not that stupid. On his home world, Rickman was very selective about who he stole brain fluid from. On his slides he wasn’t always able to be. Because it was less pure, he needed more, more often and this was the cause for the change. Of course this doesn’t hold up by “This Slide of Paradise” when they should have gotten a third actor to make this explanation work.

“Dinoslide”- If you return to a world where you’ve already been, shouldn’t you be stuck there? The dimensional window for that world already came and you took it. You can return, but you should be there for 29.7 years minus the time you were gone.

“Slither”- I didn’t really think of it as Quinn leaving the group for Kira so much as leaving sliding- she was an excuse. Also, we (me included) assume that Wade and Maggie spent their “vacation” together. They could have spent their time alone and met up at the airport to wait for the guys. As for them splitting up: I understand their need for space, but nothing about this planet said it was safe enough for them to even go down the street without staying together, much less put a plane’s worth of distance between them.

I don’t understand why the idea of putting Quinn and Maggie together seemed like a good idea. Aside from the backstory they created for Maggie making her completely unsuited to Quinn, I thought Fox “broke up” Quinn and Wade so that they could have random hook ups with guest stars. But now, instead of the slow, sweet buildup of friendship turning into something more, we get virtual strangers supposedly lusting after each other.

124

Re: Rewatch Podcast - SLIDERS REBORN

ireactions wrote:

Anyone can relate to feeling homesick. There is absolutely nobody who can relate to being the chosen one in an interdimensional war that has turned your adopted Earth into an alien battleground and sent you searching for a mysterious superweapon that might liberate your world. That's just nonsense.

I see elements of both The Terminator and The Matrix in your statement and everybody LOVED those! Of course they too were turned "into something *incredibly* convoluted. "

Re: Rewatch Podcast - SLIDERS REBORN

Hmm. Apples and oranges?

I honestly can't figure the Quinn/Maggie thing out. Jerry O'Connell, in his youth, was a girl-crazy, skirt-chasing, ridiculously horny young man with a long, long, long, long, long list of sexual conquests. He was constantly bragging about his hookups to reporters. From an armchair psychology standpoint, it's clear he was compensating for his youth where he was overweight and unattractive. In Season 3, Jerry played Quinn as ridiculously flirtatious.

But for whatever reason, Jerry seems totally incapable of conveying interest in Kari Wuhrer. Which is very odd, considering she's just his type -- although a bit older. Jerry would have been 22 - 23 while Kari was 29 - 30 -- is it that Kari was (theoretically) an adult while Jerry was, mentally, about 16? Is it that Jerry was attracted to girls as opposed to women? And he saw Kari as an adult as opposed to someone at his level?

Not sure. It's just very, very strange. You'd think sexual attraction would be pretty easy for Jerry to play or fake, but he can't seem to do it in late Season 3. There is no heat or tension between Jerry and Kari; Jerry can't even pretend to be attracted to her.

Re: Rewatch Podcast - SLIDERS REBORN

"Common Ground" isn't bad. Chris Black writes a decent script. I liked how Cory observed that Kromanus dies to save the sliders, but it's unclear if he was trying to keep them alive out of gratitude or because he was loyal to the Dynasty. It's pretty solid although the direction is poorly considered.

"Virtual Slide" is perfectly fun. I agree with Cory and Tom that Maggie providing information about the sliding machine is nonsensical and there's no way the script justifies anything she gave up as useful.

But I will argue that the idea of stealing slide-tech info from Maggie *was* perfectly workable -- in that Maggie may have been in the room when Dr. Jensen was working on the concept and may have subconsciously remembered details of his work that the VR could bring to the surface. "Virtual Slide" is a fun, enjoyable sci-fi hour. I liked it. Keith Damron was a promising writer.

Yeah. They're fine. Decent hours of TV. Oh my GOD this show has gone to crap. Uh, but first, I think I should answer Tom and Cory's question.

How the Sliding Machine and Timer Work
Tom and Cory got confused by a plot point in "Virtual Slide": why is it that the sliders, upon missing the slide window, are stranded by 29.7 years? If Quinn can just build a new sliding machine and timer to bypass the 29.7 limit, why can't the existing timer be reconfigured to do the same? Is the timer connected to the sliding machine?

They say it makes no sense. I would say that the onscreen evidence is confusing. Here's how I see it:

Think of parasailing. You've got a parachute helping you float in the sky while tethered to a boat that's tugging you forward, cutting a path through the water and giving you forward motion in a straight line. The boat is moving you forward.

The boat, in this metaphor, is the sliding machine. Then your connection to the boat is cut. You're still in the air, you still have some momentum, but you now you've lost direction.

For whatever reason, you have some cylinders of compressed air. You can keep moving. But you can't create the same thrust that the boat gave you and your direction is now subject to wind and gravity and is now oriented in towards the path of least resistance. The timer is the cylinders propelling you, but due to the loss of the boat, your direction will be random.

I don't think the timer can be connected to the sliding machine back home simply because of story reasons. If there's some sort of interdimensional transmission, that means that any interruption or interference or alteration to the machine back home prevents the timer from working. That's too big a hole to fill, so it's best if the timer works independently.

Okay, maybe that wasn't such a great metaphor; let's try another one. The sliding machine is a sledgehammer that smashed through the walls of the interdimension, allowing you to slide at will; the timer is a tiny scalpel that lets you cut through weak points of occasional convergence between dimensional walls, with the entry vortex creating another weakness that the timer can track, letting the sliders know when that weak point will be fit to create an exit to the next world.

If that point is missed, the timer's processor will need 29.7 years to calculate and create another weak point. Dear God, this is terrible. Somebody help me out here. Temporal Flux! This is your moment! This is your moment!

Is Season 4 A New Show?
Tom and Cory's main defence of Season 4 is that this is a new show and shouldn't be compared to anything in Seasons 1 - 3.

I would not be averse to a new version of SLIDERS, but I strongly disagree that this is in any way a new show. This is, instead, a clumsy, crippled, mutilated version of the old show. It's Season 1 - 2 but without imagination, skill, research or inventiveness. It's using Season 1 - 2 ideas but with the glaring impression that the Season 4 showrunners don't actually understand the ideas they're using.

"Genesis," Prophets and Loss" and "Common Ground" all use Seasons 1 - 2 as a template, but mishandle everything from Seasons 1 - 2.

It's a popular (and accurate) criticism of SLIDERS that most episodes copy the second half of the Pilot; the sliders encounter a dystopian regime, fall in with the resistance, achieve victory, depart.

Formulaic? Yes. But it works -- until now. "Genesis" has no victory -- which means that when the sliders triumph in "Prophets and Loss" and "Common Ground," you wonder why they don't liberate their home Earth as well. As repetitive and contrived as the formula may be, it was uplifting and inspiring -- but now it's just hypocritical and incoherent.

The sliders meeting the resistance is a simple, easy, in some ways lazy plot, used heavily in Seasons 1 - 2 -- and Season 4 depends on it just as much. But "Genesis" destroyed their ability to execute it properly.

The show is also using a Season 2 concept -- the Kromaggs -- and the Season 4 team doesn't understand how to use the Kromaggs.

The first problem is the makeup. It's terrible. The Kromaggs don't look menacing; they look like actors in clumsy prosthetics and the actors use very forced and overly mannered line deliveries to convey their alien natures. It's just awkward to look at.

There's also the fact that "Invasion" wisely kept the Kromaggs at a distance, the Kromaggs barely speaking, only glimpsed in brief scenes, using pawns to communicate with the sliders. "Genesis" and "Common Ground" parade the Kromaggs in front of us as mouthy, chatty, ranting thugs. This is a huge mistake.

That said -- the Season 4 team (probably) understood what the Kromaggs really are underneath the guile and mystique. The Kromaggs are just thugs and monsters. That's all there is to them in "Invasion," too -- but "Invasion" handles it correctly.

The sliders only encounter the military aspects of the culture and are completely in the Kromaggs' power the entire time. The emphasis is on the Kromaggs as manipulators who play sadistic mind games with cruel and twisted lies.

I can't say that "Genesis" and "Common Ground"'s Kromaggs are wrong. Backstabbing, violent, warlike, savage, cruel creatures -- that's what they were in "Invasion," but now there is no distance. No mystique. The sliders are beating Kromaggs up, having conversations with them, tricking Kromaggs into using their death machines on themselves -- and the result is that the Kromaggs are so overt, so up-close, so in focus that their one-dimensional silliness is glaring.

Every Kromagg in Season 4 talks the same way, has the same obsessive fixation on racial superiority -- and I don't buy it. I don't buy that every Kromagg behaves in the same manner, but I especially don't believe in these cartoonish behaviours and more problematically, I can tell that the actors also don't believe in what they're doing.

Not a single Season 4 Kromagg actor has any conviction or ease in their performance; every movement, line and expression is practised and stilted. These poor actors are in an impossible situation due to the scripts, costumes and makeup.

"Invasion" doesn't declare that all Kromaggs are warlike, savage monsters -- which would be as ridiculous as declaring that all women are obsessed with shoes. We only see a Kromagg military operation. For all we know, there are Kromagg poets. Kromagg objectors to the war effort. Kromaggs seeking to stop the conquest. We don't know, but it's possible -- until Season 4 declares that all Kromaggs are the same. Season 4 uses a Season 2 concept and totally mishandles it.

I have only written one Kromagg story -- and I'm not even a very good writer of fiction. Did you read those awful metaphors up there? But one thing I very quickly decided was that the Kromagg in my story would not speak. In my story, the Kromagg menaces Quinn, but always morphs into different human personas in order to deliver dialogue, and deliberately chooses forms to intimidate Quinn. I don't entirely know why I did this, but it was most definitely a reaction against the Season 4 Kromaggs.

The weird, weird, weird thing -- is that Season 4 could easily have been a whole new show. This is SLIDERS, for god's sake. It would not have been difficult to cut ties with the past, most of which had been severed anyway with Arturo's death and Wade and Rembrandt sent home. But this so-called new show seems more interested in destroying the old one instead of creating something new.

Re: Rewatch Podcast - SLIDERS REBORN

Hear Hear!

On the Timer, Home World Machine and Window/Portals.....

I have some theories.

Earth 00: The original Quartets Home.
Tech is Early 90's.
Power Generation and Storage is not very developed.
Computation Power was improving but nothing like what we have now.

I think the Original Machine not only brute forced a connection to tbe place between Realities allowing Portal Creation, Mathematical models to calculate patterns in flux and also Power Aqcuisition/Leeching/Recharging.

The Timer has a Capacitor which needs something BIG like his Basement Device but once that first Tear/Portal is made the Capacitor can Tap into that Layer of Reality/Multi-Reality/Inter-Reality?

Something analogous to Tesla Wireless Power Transfer or on the Fictional Side maybe akin to Babylon 5's Hyperspace Energy Taps like the Vorlons and Shadows used?

I feel this theory is a little like a Syphon. You apply force/Power initially to kickstart the process of drawing water but once started Gravity and Inertia do the rest for you. Theoretical Fusion Power is based on gaining a similar Stability and Positive Equation that generates more Power than invested into it's ignition.

I think the Invasion version of a Manta supports this theory.
The Timer and the Manta draw on the same Multiversal Energy to Tap and so can interfere with eachother.
The Manta itself suggests Quinn's Father's theories of Anti Grav based on similar theories and applications of Physics are correct also.
And Anti Grav if possible would be very power hungry as would be those Invasion Episode Energy Weapons.
These Technologies are all tied together in a Sliding related Tech Tree.

And what do we see in Invasion? Bio-Mechanical Craft. Living Technology with Multiversal Transition capability, Energy Weaponry, Anti Gravity Lift and Inertialess Drive Systems that are potentially applicable foe Extra Planetary operation and again I point out Bio-Technology in Material Science for Strength, Self Repair/Healing, Adaptation potentially but crucially and lastly the biggie....

Bio-Computing..... BIO-COMPUTING!!

I cannot stress that enough. If Quinn can calculate a natural Weakness in the Multiversal Barrier with Early 90's Tech... Imagine what could be done with a Modern OTL Touch Pad.... Or.... A Bio Computer?

29 Years? More like 15? Or 10? Or 5? Or....... 1!?

Scary thoughts huh?

Now this is obviously speculation based on what is seen on the shiw but I believe it is likely.

Also this theory promptly Debunks Smarter Quinn's claims in "Other Slide of Darkness" as the Invasion Manta is the Product of a Mature Technology and Society which has pushed it's applications and implementations very far.

If he did provide the Sliding Equations to a Kromagg Earth it was NOT Season 2's Kromagg Homeworld.

Season 2's Kromaggs will always be a very different Group, Society and maybe even Species to the Abominations and Parodies of later Seasons.

"It's only a matter of time. Were I in your shoes, I would spend my last earthly hours enjoying the world. Of course, if you wish, you can spend them fighting for a lost cause.... But you know that you've lost." -Kane-

Re: Rewatch Podcast - SLIDERS REBORN

Not that I put much stock in trying to iron out the contradictions of SLIDERS' latter years -- but Smarter-Quinn in "The Other Slide of Darkness" was clearly insane and nothing he said could be trusted or taken seriously.

And as obsessive as I am about SLIDERS, I can't offer any real explanation of how it works beyond (laboured) metaphors. Ireactions science is the worst manner of lie in fiction today, created through skimming Wikipedia and randomly choosing words and phrases, seeking to produce technobabble that is an impenetrable fog in the hope that nobody will even try to understand it.

129 (edited by NDJ 2015-11-05 19:22:40)

Re: Rewatch Podcast - SLIDERS REBORN

Season three post Arturo Quinn and episodes.

I don’t think Quinn's characterization was too awful. It was after “The Guardian” that we really start seeing the shift. Real world answer is less Torme more Peckinpah. In universe answer is this is how Quinn deals with the impending death of Arturo- the knowledge of which he had to carry alone for quite some time.

This group has been through everything: Quinn’s been shot, sentence to death three times (including being strapped into the electric chair), almost had his psyche transferred to a robot body, as well as being killed and revived; Wade has survived the Q, been put on a death list, almost overdosed, and nearly drowned; Rembrandt’s been sentenced to death twice, tortured by a psycho, and almost suffocated while carrying another man’s child; and the professor has survived the Q, a political assassination attempt, Logan's faulty wormhole calculations, and uranium enhanced worm cacooning. Not to mention that they were all doomed to die in a world ending event.  Somehow, they all made it through.

The truth is Quinn loved sliding and had everything he could want (except his mom) right there with him: A dad/mentor/intellectual equal; a buddy/potential girlfriend/socio-political equal; and a friend/brother/masculine equal. But when Arturo died, the party was over.

The death of a person you depend on has got to take its toll. Regardless of the Earths they visit or who is along for the ride, the rest of season three would have to be a downer. Although Quinn got the credit, Arturo accomplished the big saves: Arturo created penicillin, Arturo created the atom bomb, Arturo even suggested the Helix Spiral that ultimately allowed the sliders to keep going. Woe be to them without the professor and woe be to us. Not only that, they must all be carrying a lot of survivor’s guilt.

The sort of aimlessness and lack of care that went into the scripts could be interpreted as the grief of the characters- viewers don’t get strong back stories and alt-history because the sliders don’t really care to discover it. They just lost their anchor, their rock. Yeah, they want to get home but while the happy homecoming envisioned at the end of the pilot and the beginning of PTSS was never reality, now it’s not even a dream.

Don't get me wrong, Quinn's change was too far, too fast and more effort could have gone into alt-history especially when an effort was made. How hard would it have been to give the vampires of “Stoker” a real life illness like Xeroderma Pigmentosum (ultra-sensitivity to light) or one of a host of blood diseases that require constant transfusions and create a scenario around that? Dracula could have still been worked in.

Finally, I know that Rembrandt was suppose be the comic relief, but the professor was the one with the funniest lines! Another reason post Professor episodes are no fun.

130

Re: Rewatch Podcast - SLIDERS REBORN

omnimercurial wrote:

I think the Original Machine not only brute forced a connection to tbe place between Realities allowing Portal Creation, Mathematical models to calculate patterns in flux and also Power Aqcuisition/Leeching/Recharging.

If the events of "Genesis" are to be taken seriously, then didn't Quinn's birth parents already create a wormhole to his adopted Earth when they dropped him off and left?

Re: Rewatch Podcast - SLIDERS REBORN

Incoming not outgoing.

Brute Force to allow Timer to link through Portal.

Also I pretty much ignore all that poor script/story.

"It's only a matter of time. Were I in your shoes, I would spend my last earthly hours enjoying the world. Of course, if you wish, you can spend them fighting for a lost cause.... But you know that you've lost." -Kane-

Re: Rewatch Podcast - SLIDERS REBORN

Tom and Cory remarked that there was nothing to Penny in "Common Ground." No characterization.

Ian McDuffie offered an intriguing thought in his review -- Penny is Wade. Or rather, Rembrandt looks at Penny and all he can see is what happened to Wade and is being done to Wade.

"Rembrandt's blind because he sees Wade in every face he sees. He’s looking for reasons to hate the ‘Maggs when he stalks those corridors, but he’s also looking for Wade. So when he meets Penny, a test subject with pep and strength and youth and a great haircut, all he sees is Wade. So he fights hard to save her, threatening himself, threatening the group, and sure, kind of threatening Penny, too. He’s doing it out of revenge, but also out of shame. He left Wade behind, he says, and there is honest pain in his eyes. But that pain is guiding his mission so fiercely that he can’t see the consequences of his actions. He accuses Quinn of wanting to abandon Rembrandt’s Earth (to which Quinn beautifully replies “it was my Home, too”), and goes on rage-benders trying to avenge every person ever who ever lived.

"Of course, it’s hard to actually see that without looking very, very hard. There’s subtlety in the script, but once it leaves the page it’s lost in an ugly miasma of overscored and overdirected nonsense. Every shot seems to last too long, like it’s waiting for a voiceover that will never come."

http://www.earthprime.com/roulette/we-c … mon-ground

Re: Rewatch Podcast - SLIDERS REBORN

NDJ wrote:

I don’t think Quinn's characterization was too awful. It was after “The Guardian” that we really start seeing the shift. Real world answer is less Torme more Peckinpah. In universe answer is this is how Quinn deals with the impending death of Arturo- the knowledge of which he had to carry alone for quite some time. The death of a person you depend on has got to take its toll. Don't get me wrong, Quinn's change was too far, too fast

While many, many fans have tried to wrangle Jerry's performances and the clumsy characterization into some kind of logical arc, it's never made sense to me in an in-universe perspective. I don't think it ever will.

We've seen what Quinn Mallory is like when he's depressed and... well, it's not like late Season 3 or Season 4. I think Quinn, when depressed, actually hides it with efforts to ride the momentum of desperation. The Torme/Weiss Quinn faces the horror of discovering the Professor will die by trying to mentor his younger self. The Torme/Weiss Quinn reacts to Wade's apparent death by grimly accepting he'll have to carry on without her. And while losing Arturo would have been tough -- we *already* had an example of how Quinn reacted to losing his (real) father and it wasn't like "Slither." Which is not to in any way diminish how awful Quinn can and will feel -- I'm just saying that depression and grief are a little more subtle if this character is written correctly.

In real-life, Jerry O'Connell is super-charming and winning and endearing. In SLIDERS, the Jerry O'Connell megawatt smile is a falsehood. Jerry O'Connell is simply what Quinn allows you to see of him. I guess what I'm trying to say is that even a depressed Quinn puts on a pretty good show. The abrasive loon of late Season 3 and the emotionless weirdo of Season 4 aren't Quinn at all -- just the actor playing a different role that happens to have the same name.

Re: Rewatch Podcast - SLIDERS REBORN

I agree with ireactions about Quinn's depression, to a point. There are some very good points there, and I definitely thought he was out of character in late S3 and what I've seen of S4. That said, there's a difference, too, between how a person would face horror the first few times and how they face it after they've been traumatised over, and over, and over again.

As Wade puts it so aptly in The Breeder (one of the reasons I can't bring myself to hate that episode),

When I first started sliding, all I saw was adventure. Now all I seem to see is death.

After a certain point, you can't keep reacting the same way to the trauma being piled on top of you. I think the main thing Quinn lost in late S3 was a sense of purpose, a reason to keep caring. In The Exodus Part 2, he says to Arturo, coldly, brutally, "You're assuming that I care."

That was... quite out of character for the Quinn we know, but it also makes sense for someone who's been pushed and pushed and pushed until they just shut down. With Arturo terminally ill, he's being pushed even further into the leadership role, and it's too much responsibility. Remmy blames him and won't let up about how much. Wade is distant. Quinn's failing. This isn't fun any more.

And I think it reflects, rather brutally but poetically, the state of the show at that point. The cast weren't having fun either. In the beginning this was an adventure; now they just see loss and the death of a show they once loved. They're going through the motions. The atmosphere is grim. A person can only take so much.

I hate that that happened to the show, I really do. But in a purely poetic, literary sense, I like that art reflected life. Wade got off some brutally honest comments about the whole thing before she had to go, and they speak far too well to what was happening at the time. Quinn doesn't care because he doesn't care. Remmy, dear Remmy, sucks it up and soldiers on, determined to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear; his courage is beautiful. Rarely are shows so raw and so true to life.

Yeah, late S3 and early S4 were a mess. But life sometimes is. They were a mess made out of something real, and I kind of admire them for that.

Re: Rewatch Podcast - SLIDERS REBORN

Hunnh. I found that outline that a poster, KerrAvon (not sliders5125) wrote as a follow-up to Season 3's cliffhanger where Arturo stars in a sequel to "This Slide of Paradise"! But first:

There was one poster on this Bboard, awhile back -- his posts have most definitely been deleted from existence. Let's call him Jensen. Jensen declared that he was going to save SLIDERS because he had the magic words -- more specifically, Jensen had the magic numbers. Numbers that, in a specific sequence, formed Tracy Torme's phone number. He proclaimed that he would be contacting Torme to do something about a SLIDERS revival.

He followed up by posting his shocking, heartbreaking, tragic discovery that phoning Tracy Torme and telling him to revive SLIDERS wouldn't actually bring about that happy outcome as Torme doesn't control the rights to SLIDERS. (I think, as creator, he shares about 10 per cent with Robert K. Weiss.) Jensen, in the course of this phone call, attempted to pitch his ideas to Torme. Jensen told Torme that the best way to revive SLIDERS would be:

  • To do a new version of Season 4 set in 1998

  • To follow up on the Season 3 cliffhanger with a remake of the Kromagg Invasion of Earth and the sliders' search for a superweapon

  • Also explain why the Season 4 Kromaggs looked different from "Invasion" by saying the Season 4 Kromaggs were the foot soldiers

  • To have Wade return to Season 4 a quarter of the way in as a brainwashed villain for the rest of the season

  • To then reveal that the Earth in "Genesis" wasn't the Earth in the Pilot

  • To have a huge Kromagg War blowout to end the series.

Try to imagine Tracy sitting through this phone call.

Jensen proceeded to lament that Tracy seemed resistant to hearing anymore of these ideas and that it was a real shame and did anyone on this message board have an agent so they could properly pitch these ideas? Torme, said Jensen, declined to hear more without an agent involved. Jensen then declared that clearly, SLIDERS was on its way back and Torme was clearly keen to do some SLIDERS stories if only someone would please get Jensen an agent.

Message board posters had many questions for Jensen. Why did he want to have a 2014 revival of SLIDERS set in 1998? Why did he wish to explain plot holes in Season 4 if his story was designed to replace Season 4 with his own version? Why did he want to revive a series loved for its characters and make one of them an evil villain? How did he expect the 2014-era actors to play their 1998 characters? Why was his pitch for SLIDERS devoid of any ideas for parallel Earths? Why did he want Tracy Torme to write this story when Torme has not even seen Season 4 and couldn't write a Season 4 Kromagg war epic even if he were forced to? If he didn't have any interest in the characters or parallel Earths, why was he trying to revive SLIDERS?

At this point, the web host crashed and the conversation ended. Let's move on.

KerrAvon wrote:

some fanfic of my own as to how Seasson 4 should have been done:

Say they shitcan  the mysoginist, woman hating, pig Peckingpah and renew the contracts of JRD, Lloyd and Wuhrer...
Wade and Rembrandt land but they are not home: turns out that the world visited by Quinn and Maggie in EXODUS pt 1 was not the homeworld but Azure gate Bridge world (Hell, Quinn can't recognize the homeworld anyway, several times he's been mistaken)

They are debating whether to return to THIS SLIDE OF PARADISE world when they meet up with Autoro. Turns out that the one who slid in PTSS was indeed his evil double and it is he who is killed on Maggie's homeworld by Rickman.  Auturo has spent the last few months perfecting sliding and has constructed his own timer complete with wormhold tracking device. Quinn had put the Rickman timer in Rembrandt's pocket prior to shoving him and Wade into the Vortex and armed with the data they decide to return to vargas' compound. Auturo wants to check and double check before sliding and this takes a few weeks...

Finally, they are ready and they slide to the THIS SLIDE OF PARADISE hellhole world.  They reach Vargas' compund and find it in ruins.  The hybrids are all dead. they were killed off by simple diseases that they had no natural immunity for after all the exposure to Rickman and the other sliders.  Using the tracking device the sliders set out in search of Quinn  and Msggie.

The last three weeks Quinn and Maggie has been having some adventures of their own. They finally land on a world where Dr. Jensen is alive and well. Seems that on this world it is Maggie who was injured in the skiing accident and she is paralyzed. depressed she convinces our Maggie to help her end her life.  Maggie realizes her love for Stephen and decide to remain with him. Quinn begs her to stay with him but she refuses.

Heartbroken, Quinn prepares to slide but a vortex opens and the other three emerge. they have a tearful reunion. After much debate they have to make a decision: should they return to Azure Gate Bride World or continue searching for the homeworld?  They decide to continue the search....

This could have been handled in a 5-8 episode arc. Some episodes would be dedicated to Quinn and Maggie's adventures while some episode would be about the other three. Anyway just some thoughts, of what could have been...

Okay. I remember it being a lot longer -- but maybe what I mis-remembered (besides the poster) was the idea that this... outline... be executed over the course of eight episodes. I also mis-remembered the content; I thought there were scenes of Arturo fighting animal human hybrids. There aren't. I feel like this outline really tries to convert hammering the CTRL+Z on the keyboard into a logical sequence of events. It's trying to play fair.

It is also weirdly obsessed with continuity. I think there are three ways to use continuity. One is to seek to use continuity to try to make multiple stories feel like one big story by highlighting their connections and telling sequels. Another way is to feel the need to address previously established plot points individually in an effort to follow-up or reverse them. And then there's using continuity in an effort to create a sense of shared experience for both characters and the audience.

There is something completely derivative and unimaginative and crushingly dull about doing a sequel to "This Slide of Paradise" -- but that's not what this author is trying to do here, not really. This writer is, instead, seeking to confront the horror of that episode and expel it, leaving the sliders purified and renewed at the end of this exercise. And I kind of admire that. There's genuine interest and respect for the characters in this outline. There's a real desire to put the characters in difficult situations -- like being forced to wander through "This Slide of Paradise."

Anyway. Arturo is totally going to fight animal human hybrids in SLIDERS REBORN. I know it's crazy. I've been warned that this is not going to turn out well. But -- I really think I can pull this off AND make it feel like a Season 1/2 episode. And if I can't -- Tom and Cory will give a detailed account how it all went so horribly wrong in their podcast! :-D

Re: Rewatch Podcast - SLIDERS REBORN

intangirble wrote:

I agree with ireactions about Quinn's depression, to a point. There are some very good points there, and I definitely thought he was out of character in late S3 and what I've seen of S4. That said, there's a difference, too, between how a person would face horror the first few times and how they face it after they've been traumatised over, and over, and over again.

The main problem is that all the points in the latter seasons where Quinn's behaviour is beneath contempt and hateful and repulsive are also points where the character work and story make no sense.

"The Exodus": Why exactly does Quinn refuse to let his friends go home? The script provides no explanation whatsoever -- and also offers no reasoning to establish that home is really home after the experience of "Post Traumatic Slide Syndrome."

"Slither": Why exactly does Quinn want to abandon sliding for Kyra when a) he is in pursuit of the Professor's killer and b) that killer has his home coordinates?

"Genesis": Why does Quinn have no interest in tracking down Wade, after three/four years of regularly getting separated from his friends and rescuing them from their captors? The same question must be asked of Rembrandt.

"O Brother Where Art Thou": Why is Quinn so insistent that Colin abandon his whole life to go sliding? The timer can store coordinates and open gateways to previously visited Earths; why does Quinn tear this person away from his life?

"Mother and Child": See "Genesis." Also: if there's a virus that can stop Kromaggs, why doesn't Quinn try to bring it to Earth Prime? Why doesn't Rembrandt?

"Revelation": Quinn has the means of bypassing the Slidecage. So why doesn't he open a gateway to his homeworld? Quinn asks his parents for the superweapon -- but he declares that Rembrandt will be returning to his home Earth without Quinn? Why doesn't Quinn care to accompany Rembrandt for this weapon Quinn wanted to look for in "Genesis"? Why is Rembrandt unaffected by this? Why does Rembrandt approach Isaac Clarke for the weapon instead of the Mallorys who built it? And even if this isn't Kromagg Prime, why aren't Quinn and Rembrandt interested in bringing this Earth's anti-Kromagg weapon to Earth Prime?

So, in every single case where Quinn's characterization takes a downward turn, the story around him is also incoherently nonsensical and illogical with glaring errors that make it impossible to work out what's supposed to be going on.

Re: Rewatch Podcast - SLIDERS REBORN

This Slide of Paradise was a bad episode but the real shame is that if you break it up into parts there are interesting premises for Alternate Earths that could have been good.... Just not in this Episode.

Western US Coast a series of Archipeligo's and Island Chains.
That could be interesting. From our worlds Galapagos Islands we know such places can be great sources of Species Diversifivation and Specialisation.
Also Travel if you want to get around is less running around per usual Sliders schtick but instead swimming, boats and aircraft.

Ethics
1: Slavery, Caste Systems, Dehumanisation.
2: Transgenic Research with No Limits.
3: Engineered Sapient Life Creation and it's impacts.

These could have been far better explored.

"It's only a matter of time. Were I in your shoes, I would spend my last earthly hours enjoying the world. Of course, if you wish, you can spend them fighting for a lost cause.... But you know that you've lost." -Kane-

138 (edited by NDJ 2015-11-07 20:50:16)

Re: Rewatch Podcast - SLIDERS REBORN

I didn’t want to get ahead of the podcast, so I originally only addressed season three episodes. But here goes:

ireactions wrote:

"The Exodus": Why exactly does Quinn refuse to let his friends go home? The script provides no explanation whatsoever -- and also offers no reasoning to establish that home is really home after the experience of "Post Traumatic Slide Syndrome."

You’re right. There is no reason, if Quinn truly believes that he just visited Earth Prime (which is part of the premise for the rest of the show), that Wade and Rembrandt can’t go home now. Quinn is being horribly selfish-but this is not out of character. Any time he has advanced warning of losing someone, this is what he does. He didn’t want a repeat of what happened in PTSS where everybody started doing their own thing and getting back to their own lives. Quinn is friendly and personable, but he is basically an introvert. What is he going to do without these people in his life day in and day out? And if Wade and Rembrandt go home with a few days head start- he’s pretty much lost them.

ireactions wrote:

"Slither": Why exactly does Quinn want to abandon sliding for Kyra when a) he is in pursuit of the Professor's killer and b) that killer has his home coordinates?

Quinn was never in a real hurry to get home. And as Wade said, what are they going to do with Rickman when they find him- hold him down and kill him? They also couldn’t just strand him on a random Earth leaving him to kill at will. We all lament the mess that is “This Slide of Paradise” but it did give them a way to get rid of Rickman without killing him and there is no guilt about leaving him behind. It was just a bonus that he ended up killing himself!

ireactions wrote:

"Genesis": Why does Quinn have no interest in tracking down Wade, after three/four years of regularly getting separated from his friends and rescuing them from their captors? The same question must be asked of Rembrandt.

I wouldn’t say Quinn has no interest in tracking down Wade- getting Wade and Rembrandt back was the first part of the episode! And during his interrogation, Wade was the only thing Quinn reacted to. But let’s face it, Wade is lost in the multiverse. It took Quinn three months to find the Earth he sent Wade and Rembrandt to and he had the information to track them. So at this point, what can he do about Wade? He couldn't even save his mother and she was right in front of him.

ireactions wrote:

"O Brother Where Art Thou": Why is Quinn so insistent that Colin abandon his whole life to go sliding? The timer can store coordinates and open gateways to previously visited Earths; why does Quinn tear this person away from his life?

First, Quinn is selfish. Second, he did think he was doing the right thing. Colin was not supposed to grow up there and Colin’s life was somewhat lonely and sad. The girl he was in love with was going to marry someone else and the town’s people wanted to kill him- and not for the first time. He’s unappreciated and unloved and Quinn was giving him an out. If you consider what happened to Colin along the way (events that Quinn had little control over), then Quinn seems like the ultimately douche for taking his brother away from paradise. But if you look at just the episode, then Quinn was taking his brother home to their parents.

ireactions wrote:

"Mother and Child": See "Genesis." Also: if there's a virus that can stop Kromaggs, why doesn't Quinn try to bring it to Earth Prime? Why doesn't Rembrandt?

First, looking for the planet where the Kromaggs sent Wade almost got them caught. If they weren’t looking in the computer, they would not have aroused suspicion. That’s hardly forgetting about her.

Second, Quinn and Rembrandt DID ask Christina’s father for the weapon and he said no. Colin and Rembrandt started doing research to find out about the weapon but before they could find out anything or formulate a plan to break into the facility (as if they’d know what to look for), the Kromagg commander showed up. Since the commander used his mind tricks on everybody at the facility, it’s not that big a stretch to think he used it on the sliders to make them forget about getting it for themselves (especially since he used mind control to hide a weapon during Quinn’s pat down). 

ireactions wrote:

"Revelation": Quinn has the means of bypassing the Slidecage. So why doesn't he open a gateway to his homeworld? Quinn asks his parents for the superweapon -- but he declares that Rembrandt will be returning to his home Earth without Quinn? Why doesn't Quinn care to accompany Rembrandt for this weapon Quinn wanted to look for in "Genesis"? Why is Rembrandt unaffected by this? Why does Rembrandt approach Isaac Clarke for the weapon instead of the Mallorys who built it? And even if this isn't Kromagg Prime, why aren't Quinn and Rembrandt interested in bringing this Earth's anti-Kromagg weapon to Earth Prime?

Quinn THINKS he has the means to bypass the Slidecage, but clearly, he does not. This is not addressed in script but is clearly the only explanation. I can forgive them not trying sooner because maybe he just figured it out during that month long wait.  Also, Rembrandt and Quinn ARE interested in using that anti-Kromagg weapon on Earth Prime but they don’t know what it is, the only people they know won’t give it to them, they are being hunted by the police, and they only have a limited amount of time before they slide.

As for the rest, you got me. In “Genesis,” Quinn says “I’ll find her or die trying” when talking about his mother and “We’ll be back. You can count on it.” Yet as soon as he walks into the home of these people- who are strangers- he forgets about everyone and everything he ever knew! I don’t know why:

-Rembrandt goes to ask Clark for something the Mallorys should have.
-Quinn won’t get off his ass and ensure Rembrandt has the weapon before he leaves.
-Rembrandt doesn’t punch Quinn when Quinn declares his journey is over.

There are instances in other episodes that show Quinn is tired of sliding but so is Rembrandt and Rembrandt’s not bailing! I agree, Quinn's characterization here is irretrievably bad. He is punished in the next episode.

Re: Rewatch Podcast - SLIDERS REBORN

Regarding "Genesis" and "Mother and Child" -- I think Quinn and Rembrandt would have relentlessly hammered the Kromagg facilities with attacks on their computer systems until they had a trail on Wade. They would not have stopped until they died. As for the Kromaggs wiping the sliders' memories of the virus or the Slidecage equations not working -- I honestly think that once you're left with making up unwritten and unaired scenes to justify the story, it's pretty clear that the story is broken. As for Quinn being selfish, not in a hurry to go home or to catch his mentor's killer, being a bad person -- dear God.

WARNING: The following post contains ANGER because I am absolutely furious. However. Please be aware that my fury is directed towards someone's opinions and thoughts as opposed to the someone who is opining and thinking them. I mean, you can be pissed off with a person's opinion while still liking the person, right?

I get very upset -- I get incredibly angry -- when fans portray Quinn as a sociopathic monster. I'm not sure which one makes me angrier; the show doing this or the fans doing it afterwards -- Ian's blog of "Revelations" where he describes Quinn as a bad person who isn't worth your time infuriated me almost as much as the episode.

I'm also torqued about this because I asked a fellow fan, recently, if he had any opinion on whether Quinn and Wade might be a couple in 2015 and he responded with a response similar to what's above: declaring that Quinn Mallory is a piece of trash and of course Wade wouldn't want him. It pissed me off. I think what he really meant was that Wade wouldn't want to marry Jerry O'Connell.

The reason I get so upset: Quinn is an icon of genre fiction, an analytical science hero who can stand next to Mr. Spock, Sherlock Holmes, Dr. House, Spider-Man, Indiana Jones, Batman and the Fourth Doctor. He is one of the greatest fictional characters created in the twentieth century. Quinn Mallory is a superhero -- his superpower is his superbrain, his ability to improvise absurd and efficient solutions on-the-spot in moments of crisis. A character who is driven by tragedy and loss but emerges from his trials not only intact but renewed and inspired and possesses a revolutionary spirit and a sense of wanderlust and is guided by an impeccable sense of morality and compassion.

And he created sliding. You can do anything with this character, put him in any kind of story in any kind of role. He can be a bystander or a hero, a catalyst or a leading figure, a background element or an icon who inspires.

These efforts to declare that the Season 3 - 4 character is the same as the Season 1 - 2 character simply emphasize his character flaws -- his myopia, his impulsive nature, his recklessness -- but declare them to be the whole of his character, seeking to rationalize periods where the character was being written badly as explorations of his darker side, ultimately ending with the conclusion that Quinn is a selfish, hateful, uncaring villain.

This strikes me as astonishingly pointless in the extreme: attempting to rationalize poorly-considered screenwriting for a superb figure of science fiction by saying he was never a hero at all. You've justified Quinn's incoherent trajectory by replacing him with a completely different character.

If Quinn Mallory is so unworthy of our respect, if he is not a force for good, then SLIDERS is and always has been a pointless waste of time and so is this Bboard, the websites, the fanfics, the screenplays, the essays, the blogs and the reviews. Yet, many fans -- in fact, I would say most fans -- take this view of Quinn because it lets them maintain the in-universe perspective. NDJ. Ian McDuffie. Slider_Quinn21. Informant. I list their names not to demonize them, but to observe that I am in a minority (probably of one) when I express my distaste for their rationalizations.

From the in-character perspective, these rationalizations don't build Quinn up as a multifaceted character; they just take away what make him unique and powerful and immortal. In trying to insist that the post-Torme Quinn is the same character that Torme and Weiss created, all you end up doing is destroying what Torme and Weiss created.

And it just infuriates me. Because Quinn is one of the greatest science heroes of television. You can do anything with this character. He does not need to be a refugee from an advanced parallel Earth and a pivotal figure of an interdimensional war. He does not need to be a vengeful hunter pursuing a fugitive, he does not need to be a gunslinging warrior, he does not need to be a callous cowboy, he does not need to be paired up with a Baywatch babe, he does not need a convoluted origin story.

And he most definitely does not need to be a man who refuses to let his friends go home and isn't interested in bringing his mentor's killer to justice and is indifferent to his friend being raped and is unconcerned about everyone he knew back home being enslaved and murdered. None of that deepens the Quinn Mallory character at all. None of that touches upon what makes him special. That's just drug addiction, alcoholism, family tragedy and depression talking, most of it David Peckinpah's.

In fact, it's not even deliberate. All of that is entirely *accidental*, filmed and aired because the actor was hungover that day. Because the scripts weren't properly reviewed. Because rehearsals were slapdash. Because the writers saw screenwriting as something to do between Solitaire binges. (That's not an exaggeration.)

Quinn is a very simple character to use. All Quinn needs is to be put in crazy, bizarre, ludicrous situations of intense risk and danger to life and sanity and to come up with clever, on-the-spot solutions to save the day. That's it. That's all you have to do. If you are having trouble coming up with plausible ways for the characters to advance the plot, use Quinn's genius to fast-forward the process. That's what this character was built to do. He cuts through narrative like a knife cuts through butter.

There's also the fact that all of these efforts to demonize Quinn both onscreen and after the fact make no sense whatsoever. Because if Quinn were really selfish and lazy and uncaring, he would not be a slider. He would find some paradise world and retire. That's what Jerry O'Connell would do with sliding, and the constant inability of fans to distinguish between actor and character is absolutely maddening and infuriating for me. That's what I see here, in these rationalizations. In these attempts to explain the inexplicable. A conflation of actor and character.

In ireactions-world -- which you need not take seriously and where absolutely nobody but me lives -- there is Quinn Mallory as created by Torme and Weiss. And then there is a second role with the same name and actor but written with little thought and care by David Peckinpah, Bill Dial, Keith Damron, Steven Stoliar.

One is an icon of genre fiction, an analytical science hero. And the other is a character also played by Jerry O'Connell, an actor who has played many roles, including Woody Hoyt, Andrew Clemens, Charlie Corbone and Phil Ohlmyer.

Jerry O'Connell is not Quinn Mallory. Jerry is just the mask that Quinn wears.

In my mind, to argue that the Season 3 - 4 character is the same as Season 1 - 2 is the equivalent of claiming that Jerry's CROSSING JORDAN and CAMP WILDER characters are the same person as well, except this is far more destructive. And if these analyses serve only to tear Quinn down, then they're pointless and useless. Admittedly, I say this as someone trying to write Quinn and therefore have a vested interest in seeing the character as a going concern. Which, as a goal in itself, is completely insane, so feel free not to take any of this into account.

I have really, really, really tried -- on two separate occasions -- to rationalize S1-2 Quinn with S3  - 4 Quinn. When writing Quinn Mallory in stories, I have always left myself open to the possibility that the post-Torme characterization can be rationalized. When writing "Slide Effects," I wrote that Quinn, Wade, Rembrandt and Arturo would witness the moment in "Mother and Child" where Rembrandt says they have to go find Wade and Jerry delivers, "I don't know if we have enough time" with absolutely no emotion.

I wrote in _______________ in the outline for Quinn's reaction. I decided: when actually scripting that scene, Quinn would say whatever came naturally. He could explain himself. He could justify himself. I left it up to the character. And when I got to that page of the script, Quinn's explanation was that the scenario was part of a Kromagg mental simulation and he was subconsciously aware that the events he was experiencing weren't real and that was the point where he no longer believed in the situations he was living. I didn't plan that. I put Quinn in that scene, and that was what he had to say for himself. When writing REBORN, I again put Quinn in the same situation and got largely the same answer; he didn't recognize what he was seeing. Wasn't him.

Again. This is just my personal opinion and you will, of course, note that this entire post is almost like I'm trying to defend Quinn as though he's a personal acquaintance. As though he's my loved and treasured friend. From reading this post, you might think that I have a relationship with Quinn in the way some people have relationships with Jesus. You'd be right.

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Re: Rewatch Podcast - SLIDERS REBORN

NDJ wrote:

Since the commander used his mind tricks on everybody at the facility, it’s not that big a stretch to think he used it on the sliders to make them forget about getting it for themselves (especially since he used mind control to hide a weapon during Quinn’s pat down).

ireactions wrote:

Regarding "Genesis" and "Mother and Child" -- I think Quinn and Rembrandt would have relentlessly hammered the Kromagg facilities with attacks on their computer systems until they had a trail on Wade. They would not have stopped until they died. As for the Kromaggs wiping the sliders' memories of the virus or the Slidecage equations not working -- I honestly think that once you're left with making up unwritten and unaired scenes to justify the story, it's pretty clear that the story is broken. As for Quinn being selfish, not in a hurry to go home or to catch his mentor's killer, being a bad person -- dear God.

First- I never said the Kromaggs wiped people's memory- I said they messed with people's minds. This is an established fact in the series-starting in season 2. What kind of show has to outline every little detail, every single time as if the viewer has no common sense?

Second- I have never and would never say Quinn was a bad person. I don't think being selfish (wanting to keep the people you love in your life), not wanting to go home (having the adventure end and having nothing to do but deal with your loss) and not wanting to catch his mentor's killer (not wanting to kill someone) makes him a bad person. I think he's made some serious mistakes- this makes him a human being.

I love Quinn no matter how you slice him: Seasons 1-2 Quinn, seasons 3-4 Quinn, or seasons 1-4 Quinn. Please don’t twist my words to suit your mood.

Re: Rewatch Podcast - SLIDERS REBORN

NDJ wrote:

I have never and would never say Quinn was a bad person. I don't think being selfish (wanting to keep the people you love in your life), not wanting to go home (having the adventure end and having nothing to do but deal with your loss) and not wanting to catch his mentor's killer (not wanting to kill someone) makes him a bad person.

OF COURSE NOT WANTING TO KILL RICKMAN WOULD MAKE QUINN A BAD PERSON.

Rickman is a serial killer. He's travelling to worlds where no one knows of him and no one can be prepared for him. Every moment the sliders don't take him down is a moment where he's going to kill someone. So, yes -- the sliders not pursuing him or even considering giving up on tracking him down is indeed a moral crisis point -- Rickman's an interdimensional serial killer and they're the only ones who can follow him. If Quinn considers abandoning the pursuit for Rickman, then he is responsible for Rickman's subsequent victims -- every single one -- because he decided to quit trying to take this lunatic down. There is absolutely no moral quandary about killing Rickman -- he's an unrepentant murderer. That and having an English accent are his only character traits.

If you know that someone is a murderer and you decide it's not your problem and let them go off to kill more people, then yes, you are a bad person. The legalities are fuzzy; failure to report a crime is a misdemeanor in some states while a felony in states with mandatory reporting laws. But do the vagaries of the law absolve anyone from an incredibly obvious moral responsibility? Is this seriously up for debate? Is this even a question?

Failing to report a murder is wrong. Knowing in advance that someone will be murdered and declining to make efforts to prevent it is wrong. This is something I never thought I'd have to say on a SLIDERS message board.

And if Quinn knows that someone is going to be murdered and decides it's not his problem because he could hang out with Kyra, then YES, he is a bad person and I have been wasting my time with him.

My friend Val, when she was 12, discovered that this college guy she was friends with had been raping girls. Not her, of course -- she was a little too old for his tastes. Val proceeded to beat the rapist senseless with a toaster, locked him in a bathroom and fled for a police station. I have never been prouder of her. If she had shrugged it off and gone home to watch MY LITTLE PONY, she would have been responsible for every victim that man went on to rape.

Holy shit. I really never thought I'd have to have this discussion with anyone, anywhere, ever. Well. Thanks for that.

"The Exodus" makes no sense whatsoever no matter how you twist Quinn's character into knots. Let's say that Quinn has, for reasons that are incomprehensible, decided he's not going to let Wade, Rembrandt and Arturo get home. Arturo would have knocked Quinn unconscious or sat on him while Wade and Rembrandt tied him up, then they'd roll him into the vortex home. Furthermore, Rickman is, throughout the story, hostile and paranoid about the sliders because they threaten his command and his control of the situation; the story provides no motive for Rickman to want to keep the sliders around after they've found a suitable Earth as a settlement. Quinn's behaviour warps the entire story for no reason other than to have the other sliders get angry at him for contrived reasons.

NDJ wrote:
NDJ wrote:

Since the commander used his mind tricks on everybody at the facility, it’s not that big a stretch to think he used it on the sliders to make them forget about getting it for themselves (especially since he used mind control to hide a weapon during Quinn’s pat down).

First- I never said the Kromaggs wiped people's memory- I said they messed with people's minds. This is an established fact in the series-starting in season 2. What kind of show has to outline every little detail, every single time as if the viewer has no common sense?

"Wiping memories" / "messed with people's minds" -- hair-splitting. You declare that Kromagg telepathy must be why the sliders didn't try to secure the anti-Kromagg virus in "Mother and Child" -- there is absolutely nothing onscreen to support that assertion. It's not a piece of information subtly communicated; it's not hinted at -- it's not there. At all. The sliders are searching for a weapon to free their home Earth of Kromaggs. They found one in "Mother and Child." And then they leave it. The failure to address this in any fashion is not subtle storytelling that feels little details can be filled in by the viewer's common sense; this is a massive gaping hole in the story that renders the rest of the season incoherent.

There is no reason for the sliders to keep searching for the Kromagg Prime superweapon when a perfectly serviceable countermeasure exists on an Earth that's stored in the timer's coordinates. If the Kromagg erased the sliders' memories/messed with their minds, this absolutely has to be present onscreen or it leaves a glaringly unanswered question that undermines every story that follows.

Oh, and not to go off on a tangent, but if anyone reading this knows of any murderers out there or murders about to take place, CALL THE POLICE. If you don't, you are a horrible person and I will not want to write fanfics about you. Jesus.

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I'm sorry that you think the guy you liken to Batman and Superman would kill someone- because I can't remember a time a superhero ever did that.

I'm also sorry that you think it makes someone a bad person for not wanting to kill someone or would hesitate- even if the person deserves to die. Perhaps you forgot that I did mention that they did need to stop him.

I know what I wrote, I know I meant; and I was not splitting hairs. If you want everything spelled out onscreen for you before you believe it, please remember that 29.7 years wasn't mentioned on screen until season 3.

Clearly you want a fight and I am done giving you one.

Re: Rewatch Podcast - SLIDERS REBORN

NDJ wrote:

I'm sorry that you think the guy you liken to Batman and Superman would kill someone- because I can't remember a time a superhero ever did that. I'm also sorry that you think it makes someone a bad person for not wanting to kill someone or would hesitate- even if the person deserves to die. Perhaps you forgot that I did mention that they did need to stop him. I know what I wrote, I know I meant; and I was not splitting hairs. If you want everything spelled out onscreen for you before you believe it, please remember that 29.7 years wasn't mentioned on screen until season 3. Clearly you want a fight and I am done giving you one.

You're sorry? You are indeed sorry. I am not sorry.

I am not sorry to tell you that there is NO SCENE in "Mother and Child" where the Kromagg telepathically removes knowledge of the anti-Kromagg virus. It is not in the script. First, you raised the telepathy as a possibility; now you declare it is a certainty. It is not. You just made that up.

I am not sorry to refuse to follow you in your tortured logic where I am somehow at fault for declining to take into account a scene that does not exist outside your imagination. Perhaps you have your own version of "Mother and Child" in your head; I am not obligated to review it, only the version that aired. At least 29.7 had a deleted script page; what have you got? Nothing whatsoever.

I am also extremely not sorry to declare that it is a moral tipping point for Quinn to be blissfully unconcerned with ALL THE PEOPLE Rickman will kill.

I'm not sorry to point out that you defending Quinn for refusing to let his friends go home in "The Exodus" is you declaring that  kidnapping and unlawful imprisonment is okay by you!

I never likened Quinn to Superman. As for Batman, he never needs to kill as demonstrated in an issue of DETECTIVE COMICS Batman put R'as Al Ghul in a mental hospital with faked paperwork to keep the man in a permanent coma.

Superman has superstrength/heat vision/invulnerability/flight/a fortress in the Arctic. Batman has infinite money and over 20 sidekicks and a limitless utility belt of plot convenient gadgets. Quinn had a god-damn TV remote. Of course Rickman should have been killed. If they didn't have the stomach to do it personally, they could have sent him to Earth Prime (where he'd suffocate) or send him back to the military settlement (where his own people would have executed him) or they could have stranded him on some wasteland world where the lack of fresh brain fluid would have seen him die.

Once again -- I am astonished that stopping murderers is any sort of moral conundrum for anyone with even a splinter of conscience, responsibility or concern for their fellow human being.

I congratulate you -- you've achieved three firsts in the SLIDERS community. Lots of posters have said that Quinn's arc across four seasons make sense because he's a bad person -- but you're the first to do that while expressing that you're totally cool with Quinn holding innocent people prisoner and letting murderers run free, and that your dream-journal version of "Mother and Child" is canon.

There are, sadly, people in this world who think it's okay to strip others of their freedom and self-determination. People who see injustice done and choose to turn a blind eye. And people who would rather fabricate scenes in TV episodes rather than admit their argument has some gaping holes. It's a defect of humanity to be concerned with only one's self and to be indifferent to the suffering of others. And to rationalize it, saying we'd all be twisted and mutilated by bad experiences and so too would Quinn.

We shouldn't do that to Quinn. We should not make the sliders more like us. We should be more like them. We should regard the unknown with curiosity and wonder and confront problems with knowledge, strategy and confidence in the power of ideas.

I suspect the reason most fans see no issue with tearing Quinn down is because few, if any, have ever regarded him an iconic superhero; they don't see the precious creation that is being destroyed. And that's fine. That's just a difference of opinion -- but this is the first time I've ever seen anyone declare that kidnapping and enabling of a serial killer is in any way sympathetic or morally defensible.

That's delusional, deranged and diseased -- and you demonstrate precisely why I object so strongly to rationalizing Quinn's Season 3 - 4 behaviour as in-character.

Re: Rewatch Podcast - SLIDERS REBORN

The producers obviously went too far in losing the original Quinn, and Tom talked about this on a recent cast. But I have to say, I do thing some of the more bolder, action hero Quinn was in order. You can imagine how much a person might change in going through what they went through as Sliders. I would imagine it would cause someone like Quinn to become bolder.

Re: Rewatch Podcast - SLIDERS REBORN

Personally, I think Quinn had gotten as action-oriented as he needed to in "As Time Goes By" and "Double Cross" in his multiple fight scenes and physical confrontations. But I don't really think that the willingness to fight or engage in hand to hand combat or gun battles is a sign of progression; the more meaningful growth would be to see Quinn use his intelligence to bypass the need to threaten or attack others. I think Quinn's maturity as the seasons passed should have been shown in higher levels of responsibility and ability -- not in fighting, but rather with sliding technology.

How would he use his knowledge and scientific skills to better the multiverse? To create interdimensional relationships between worlds? To take on larger-scale problems? I think, had Tracy Torme stayed on the show and brought in Marc Scott Zicree, there would have been more variants on the sliding technology: the slidewave, the slidecage, maybe the Combine and other aspects. "Into the Mystic" touched upon interdimensional economics; Zicree approached interdimensional politics.

I also think that part of Quinn's maturity would have been mentoring new characters; as the show progressed, I think new sliders should have been introduced with the originals serving as teachers to the next wave of sliders.

Re: Rewatch Podcast - SLIDERS REBORN

ireactions wrote:

Personally, I think Quinn had gotten as action-oriented as he needed to in "As Time Goes By" and "Double Cross" in his multiple fight scenes and physical confrontations. But I don't really think that the willingness to fight or engage in hand to hand combat or gun battles is a sign of progression; the more meaningful growth would be to see Quinn use his intelligence to bypass the need to threaten or attack others. I think Quinn's maturity as the seasons passed should have been shown in higher levels of responsibility and ability -- not in fighting, but rather with sliding technology.

How would he use his knowledge and scientific skills to better the multiverse? To create interdimensional relationships between worlds? To take on larger-scale problems? I think, had Tracy Torme stayed on the show and brought in Marc Scott Zicree, there would have been more variants on the sliding technology: the slidewave, the slidecage, maybe the Combine and other aspects. "Into the Mystic" touched upon interdimensional economics; Zicree approached interdimensional politics.

I also think that part of Quinn's maturity would have been mentoring new characters; as the show progressed, I think new sliders should have been introduced with the originals serving as teachers to the next wave of sliders.

But, there's no question he would have gotten bolder from his initial character.  You're struggling to survive, he was athletic to begin with, and certainly would have become more of a leader and gained confidence with each "win" he garnered. So I'm simply saying the idea of becoming a bit more action heroish in and of itself isn't necessarily problematic. Just as I would have expected Rembrant to change is well.

Re: Rewatch Podcast - SLIDERS REBORN

I don't disagree, of course. Two of my favourite moments for Rembrandt: his shotgun slinging in "Into the Mystic" and his intimidating the secretary in "Murder Most Foul."

I just think that there is more to being a hero than beating people up. Force and violence are easy. Fists and guns, knives and bombs -- I imagine that there are plenty of potential SLIDERS stories where Quinn would have to use such things. But I would never want to be the default-setting for Quinn. I would never measure a person's worth or competence by how many people he can hurt.

There are times in the series when Quinn's physical inabilities have been nonsensical, most notably in "El Sid" and "The Young and the Relentless." I get that Sid is tough, but it's ludicrous that Quinn is completely unable to defend himself. And Kyle Beck intimidating Quinn and withholding the timer when Quinn is muscled and toned and towers over Kyle -- absurd. I just don't think fighting is particularly interesting as a solution or resolution. Any TV hero can shoot a gun or punch a villain; it's a science hero who can think his way to victory and that's what makes Quinn great.

I'm not saying you can't have Quinn punch and kick and shoot his way out; I'm just saying it doesn't really speak to Quinn Mallory. It's generic. And I don't know how much more you can really showcase Quinn's physicality beyond "As Time Goes By" and "Double Cross."

I found myself thinking about this quite heavily when writing SLIDERS REBORN. Jerry is like Tom Cruise in the MISSION IMPOSSIBLE movies. Tom Cruise is jumping onto planes that are taking off, leaping off rooftops, diving out of skyscrapers, and I imagine Quinn being as superhuman if not moreso. But I found it more important, in the fight scenes here and there, to emphasize how Quinn is skillful rather than how Quinn is strong. When captured by two police officers, he slips out of his handcuffs, handcuffs one to a bikerack and knocks the other one unconscious and proceeds to steal their car -- but it's the police radio that's really useful because it helps him dodge the manhunt. That's how I see it -- the physicality is a component, but it's not the defining trait.

Note: Please don't feel obligated to consider REBORN as supporting evidence in our discussions.

Re: Rewatch Podcast - SLIDERS REBORN

ireactions wrote:

I don't disagree, of course. Two of my favourite moments for Rembrandt: his shotgun slinging in "Into the Mystic" and his intimidating the secretary in "Murder Most Foul."

I just think that there is more to being a hero than beating people up. Force and violence are easy. Fists and guns, knives and bombs -- I imagine that there are plenty of potential SLIDERS stories where Quinn would have to use such things. But I would never want to be the default-setting for Quinn. I would never measure a person's worth or competence by how many people he can hurt.

There are times in the series when Quinn's physical inabilities have been nonsensical, most notably in "El Sid" and "The Young and the Relentless." I get that Sid is tough, but it's ludicrous that Quinn is completely unable to defend himself. And Kyle Beck intimidating Quinn and withholding the timer when Quinn is muscled and toned and towers over Kyle -- absurd. I just don't think fighting is particularly interesting as a solution or resolution. Any TV hero can shoot a gun or punch a villain; it's a science hero who can think his way to victory and that's what makes Quinn great.

I'm not saying you can't have Quinn punch and kick and shoot his way out; I'm just saying it doesn't really speak to Quinn Mallory. It's generic. And I don't know how much more you can really showcase Quinn's physicality beyond "As Time Goes By" and "Double Cross."

I found myself thinking about this quite heavily when writing SLIDERS REBORN. Jerry is like Tom Cruise in the MISSION IMPOSSIBLE movies. Tom Cruise is jumping onto planes that are taking off, leaping off rooftops, diving out of skyscrapers, and I imagine Quinn being as superhuman if not moreso. But I found it more important, in the fight scenes here and there, to emphasize how Quinn is skillful rather than how Quinn is strong. When captured by two police officers, he slips out of his handcuffs, handcuffs one to a bikerack and knocks the other one unconscious and proceeds to steal their car -- but it's the police radio that's really useful because it helps him dodge the manhunt. That's how I see it -- the physicality is a component, but it's not the defining trait.

Note: Please don't feel obligated to consider REBORN as supporting evidence in our discussions.

I agree with what you are saying is the essence of the character - and how is something special that can really bring in fans.

Re: Rewatch Podcast - SLIDERS REBORN

How would Quinn have time to develop and nurture sliding technology when they were constantly on the run? With the exception of The Weaker Sex, the timer gave them at most a week before moving on to the next port of call.

Earth Prime | The Definitive Source for Sliders™

Re: Rewatch Podcast - SLIDERS REBORN

Transmodiar wrote:

How would Quinn have time to develop and nurture sliding technology when they were constantly on the run? With the exception of The Weaker Sex, the timer gave them at most a week before moving on to the next port of call.

In my mind -- I think Season 3 should have started with "Double Cross" -- and with a different ending. An ending where the Professor assumes his dead double's identity and the sliders take over Prototronics and start using it as a home base.

They'd still be doing random sliding every week, but with the knowledge that the exit slide would take them back to Prototronics.

I feel like this would have been a nice way to keep the premise of the show -- but add a little incremental progress in the sliding technology so that it doesn't feel like Quinn, the 'genius,' accomplished nothing in two years.