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Re: Rewatch Podcast - SLIDERS REBORN

I was just thinking of “Seasons Greedings” and “the Last of Eden” and it struck me: Where are the fathers?  We can logically assume the “The Last of Eden” guy fell during an earthquake some months ago (we’ve seen how these people just shrug their shoulders and walk away), but where is the other guy? I mean this woman was putting her baby in the hands of strangers (in a scene reminiscent of Three Men and A Baby).  There’s no deadly situation for viewers to assume the husband/boyfriend fell prey to and the world itself is not dangerous.

Re: Rewatch Podcast - SLIDERS REBORN

http://rewatchpodcast.podomatic.com/

New episode! "World Killer" and "O Brother Where Art Thou"!

Re: Rewatch Podcast - SLIDERS REBORN

To be fair NDJ agreed Rickman needed to be stopped.
The thing is though.... Violence is not Quinn's go to option unless pushed into it.
You point this out yourself in your newer posts quite succinctly when discussing his Mind and Problem solving being a core quality and more impressive asset than brawling alone.
I believe Quinn would aim to immobilise and capture Rickman if given a choice.
Rickmans medical condition is likely to kill him without additional victims anyway so Death is likely, but an execution? No.

"It's only a matter of time. Were I in your shoes, I would spend my last earthly hours enjoying the world. Of course, if you wish, you can spend them fighting for a lost cause.... But you know that you've lost." -Kane-

Re: Rewatch Podcast - SLIDERS REBORN

Hey guys, new episode up now. "Just Say Yes" and "The Alternateville Horror"

Re: Rewatch Podcast - SLIDERS REBORN

omnimercurial wrote:

To be fair NDJ agreed Rickman needed to be stopped. The thing is though.... Violence is not Quinn's go to option unless pushed into it. You point this out yourself in your newer posts quite succinctly when discussing his Mind and Problem solving being a core quality and more impressive asset than brawling alone. I believe Quinn would aim to immobilise and capture Rickman if given a choice. Rickmans medical condition is likely to kill him without additional victims anyway so Death is likely, but an execution? No.

I do not believe Quinn would have ever stopped pursuing Rickman. But I also don't believe Quinn would have killed Rickman, at least not if he were written correctly.

I think Quinn would have found some way to strand Rickman in a state of quantum suspension, imprisoned and 'frozen' inside the interdimensional tunnel -- with the intention to one day find a cure for Rickman's condition, release him from limbo and repair his damaged body and mind.

Anyway. I thought NDJ raised an interesting approach to Season 4. "Mother and Child" has a plothole: why don't Quinn and Rembrandt try to use the anti-Kromagg virus on their home Earth? NDJ suggested a missing scene / plot where their memories were erased.

NDJ wrote:

Since the commander used his mind tricks on everybody at the facility, it’s not that big a stretch to think he used it on the sliders to make them forget about getting it for themselves (especially since he used mind control to hide a weapon during Quinn’s pat down).

It makes me think: Season 4 is filled with awkward beats and characterization that were could have been made reasonable with some added scenes.

What if "Mother and Child" in addition to the Kromagg mindwipe, there was also another scene? A scene where Quinn abruptly separates himself from Colin, Maggie and Rembrandt -- making some flimsy excuse that doesn't fool Rembrandt. Rembrandt finds Quinn  Quinn is crying. The failure to find Wade again has hit him hard, and Quinn rages over how they've broken into 15 Kromagg bases trying to find Wade and "we never have time." He wonders if this is pointless, if they should give up. Maggie calls for Quinn and Quinn suddenly pulls himself together, his face resuming the cold stoicism he had before.

And maybe the final scene is Quinn staring blankly at wall in the Chandler and then Rembrandt drags him outside and down the street. Rembrandt points across the street. We see, at a distance, a slender redhead with an apron waiting on a table at an outdoor restaurant. Rembrandt says that on a lot of worlds, Kelly Welles and Wade opened a chain of Internet cafes; any time Rembrandt sees a Turing Treats in the phone book, he knows Wade's around.

Rembrandt tells Quinn: watch her. Go up to her and talk to her and take her to the movies, or walk by once and then walk away. He tells Quinn to do whatever he has to do, but he can't give up. They have to keep searching for the superweapon. They can't give up. And we'd end on Quinn alone, looking at the Wade-double. Does he approach? Does he leave? Fade out.

Another major sticking point is "Revelations" where Quinn is apparently not going to accompany Rembrandt back to Earth Prime to liberate it from the Kromaggs. I would probably imagine a missing scene where Colin confronts Quinn about this: and Quinn reveals that now that they have the weapon, they can free their home Earth, but Wade and Amanda Mallory are still out there. Rembrandt and Quinn had an agreement: Rembrandt would take the weapon home. Quinn would go search for Wade and his mom.

It would add weight to Jerry's half-hearted performance in the final scene when Maggie tells Quinn she hopes he gets home someday and Quinn says he does too -- but what he's really thinking about is how his search for Wade is once again on hold.

That said, I think the whole Kromagg Prime arc of Season 4 was awful awful awful no matter how many tweaks might have been made. But "Commander Wade Welles" and Quinn putting on a brave face for the others while crying over Wade when nobody's looking would have helped a little. (A little.)

Re: Rewatch Podcast - SLIDERS REBORN

Hngh. ireactions hitting it out of the park again with some stellar ideas.

Little things like this would have been the difference between a show that so obviously Just Didn't Care and a show that rallied in the wake of production horrors and the loss of two of its stars. Fox be damned, continuity matters. It's what keeps people invested in the story, what makes it more than just "some people went places and things exploded". Even a viewer dipping into an episode in the middle of the series and seeing these characters cut up about someone they've never met... they're not going to recoil and change the channel. They're going to think, "oh, huh. Maybe I should go back and see the earlier episodes so I know why they care." A little harder in the days before DVDs, but yeah.

But that was all we needed. An emotional connection. To know that Quinn cared. So simple yet so powerful. I'm going to be headcanoning those scenes into my ideas of the episodes now.

157

Re: Rewatch Podcast - SLIDERS REBORN

The Rickman Situation
I see Quinn as a man (a boy still in many ways) who is being crushed under the weight of responsibility, guilt, and grief. My interpretation of the Rickman scenario does not include him ever giving up- remember I don’t think that Quinn is in any rush to give up sliding. I think Quinn both understands and accepts his responsibility to stop Rickman (killing him if necessary but not wanting to)- but it is this same realization that is weighing him down. Add to that the immediate situation with Kyra (since when hasn’t a beautiful woman been Quinn’s weakness?) and Rembrandt, and the fact that Wade and Maggie aren’t there and you get a “f*** this- I quit” outburst. Do I think that if the timer ran down and Maggie and Wade were there, Quinn would have stayed with Kyra? No, not even you remove the whole Carlos situation.   

This is how I see “Mother and Child”
You are about to leave your house for work and your plan is to stop by the store to buy some bread. Your manipulative, horrible, dangerous neighbor, who you HATE, is also going to the store to get medicine for his kid. This is the type of guy that will rob the store but you know that his kid really is sick so you go to the store with him. He talks to you, none of which you want to hear (you just want to make sure he doesn’t do anything illegal), talks up the store clerk, and even talks the pharmacists into giving him the medicine for less than he should have paid. You get back to the house without incident and DAMN IT- you forgot the bread and now you have to go to work!

Did the neighbor wipe your memory or did he manipulate you into momentarily forgetting your own goals? I have nothing to base memory wipe on, but messing with your mind, making you focus on ‘A’ so that you forget you were after ‘B’- that is what Kromaggs do. Overly simplistic but I wanted to demonstrate that for me, “memory wipe” and “messing with your mind” are two different things.

Also, we all assume that the Kromagg virus is at the same facility as the human cure. It makes sense but we don’t know it for sure- The only information we ever get is that the anti-virus is at the military facility and that comes from the Kromagg who got that my reading Christina’s father’s mind. If the virus was there, he wasn’t telling!

I think this a middling episode for the season. I think they did miss an opportunity to really talk about Wade instead of just using her as a plot device. Either Rembrandt or Quinn could have talked about Wade to Colin and it would not have felt contrived. They could have even talked to each other about what Christina’s situation meant for Wade (if Christina could get away with a baby why didn’t Wade try to escape? Is she pregnant? Does she have a baby?) and larger issues in general (what would happen if they did get the Kromagg killing virus and women with Humagg children wanted to bring their babies home?). Of course this is a can of worms nobody really wanted to open.

I agree that the Kromagg arc was awful. I see where they were going and it did make sense that a few of the worlds would have differently evolved humans. After all, there was actually another humanoid species on this Earth that homo sapiens beat out for dominance. This means their existence is still in keeping with the spirit of the show, but I watch Star Trek for constant alien human/ interaction- Sliders was suppose to be something different.

Re: Rewatch Podcast - SLIDERS REBORN

Tom and Cory applauded me for noting that Penny is meant to represent Wade in "Common Ground." That wasn't me, that was Ian McDuffie. I even linked to his review.

-- ?!?!

**

Tom apparently has the NARCOTICA comic on which "Just Say Yes" was based. He dislikes Dennis Calero's art. I'll have to respectfully disagree; I thought Calero did a great job of using a more impressionistic approach to SLIDERS, focusing on mood and atmosphere as opposed to detail and photorealism. His approach to the characters allows the likenesses to be off because they're illustrative representations of the sliders rather than attempts to copy photos. I also thought NARCOTICA was well written because Jerry O'Connell's script isn't about how DRUGS ARE EVIL. Jerry's script is about how drugs are being used as a means of societal control on this alternate world, which shifts the situation into a more nuanced state of moral ambiguity.

I dunno how the Jerry who wrote this comic constantly comes off as a sub-literate moron when talking SLIDERS in interviews.

**

"Just Say Yes" is an inept effort to demonize drugs and dramatize addiction -- very odd, given that David Peckinpah and Bill Dial saw their TV producer jobs as ways to enable their addictions. Strange how "Just Say Yes" is the one story these people are qualified to tell and they couldn't do it.

**

Tom really highlighted my distaste for the Season 4 arc. Cory and Tom enjoy "Alternateville" as a fun, light episode. But, as Tom says, it feels totally out of place when Season 4 started with the invasion of Earth Prime and the enslavement of Wade and Amanda Mallory and the deaths of all the Pilot characters. Against this backdrop, it's just awkward to see stories like "Alternateville." They don't fit the dark situation the show has created.

Which is precisely my argument against the Kromagg Prime arc; it doesn't widen the stories SLIDERS can do; it narrows them until stories that aren't connected to the Kromaggs no longer suit the characters. Season 4 is actively trying to take away the stories SLIDERS can tell until using the full breadth of SLIDERS stories now feels wrong. And it seems to have left the fanbase permanently damaged.

There's over fifty Season 6 fanfics and the majority of them are Kromagg war epics. There's at least fifteen pitches for alternate visions of Season 4 that start with the Kromagg invasion of Earth. Towards the end, most of the fanfics were about the Kromagg myth-arc.

A fanfic writer from that era recently told me that he couldn't stand Season 4 and it made him stop writing SLIDERS fanfics. He didn't want to write for Quinn, Rembrandt, Colin and Maggie searching for a superweapon; he didn't relate to that team. He wanted to write Quinn, Wade, Rembrandt and Arturo, but writing stories with the original quartet in a post-"Genesis" era made him feel like he was stuck in the past and out of date, that the only stories that belonged in SLIDERS were focused on fighting Kromaggs rather than exploring parallel worlds.

Re: Rewatch Podcast - SLIDERS REBORN

ireactions wrote:

Tom and Cory applauded me for noting that Penny is meant to represent Wade in "Common Ground." That wasn't me, that was Ian McDuffie. I even linked to his review.

Yep we made a gaffe! We actually noticed it before this episode even went up and made the correction in the By The Way section which you'll hear in Monday's episode. Blame it on skimming and not reading fully!

Re: Rewatch Podcast - SLIDERS REBORN

On a side note, how do you like our "Quick Impressions?" Just a bit of goofy fun!

Re: Rewatch Podcast - SLIDERS REBORN

Tom and Cory, in the recent podcast, said that the SLIDERS comics aren't canon. The canonicity of the SLIDERS comics was an amusing debate in a Sliderscast:

Mr. Stargate: "The comics are not canon!"
The Savior: "They are canon."
Mr. Stargate: "How the fuck can they be canon?"
The Savior: "Tracy Torme said they're canon."
Mr. Stargate: "God damn it! Fuck! Fine! Whatever!"

That said, the comics became irreconcilable with the TV show; "Darkest Hour" has the sliders make it home and leave again and "Deadly Secrets" offers an account of Wade's parents contrary to "Season's Greedings" -- so I think the comics have to feature doubles of the sliders -- which means they are technically canon within the SLIDERS multiverse if not canon for the specific versions of the sliders we saw on television.

"But ireactions! If that's your opinion, why does one of your SLIDERS REBORN scripts have Rembrandt talking about how he once had to fight two-dimensional beings in ARMADA?!!"

..........

Whoops.

Re: Rewatch Podcast - SLIDERS REBORN

Hee Hee smile

"It's only a matter of time. Were I in your shoes, I would spend my last earthly hours enjoying the world. Of course, if you wish, you can spend them fighting for a lost cause.... But you know that you've lost." -Kane-

Re: Rewatch Podcast - SLIDERS REBORN

New Rewatch Podcast ep is up. This week we discuss "Slidecage" and "Asylum" http://rewatchpodcast.podomatic.com/ent … 2_12-08_00

Re: Rewatch Podcast - SLIDERS REBORN

RewatchPodcast wrote:

New Rewatch Podcast ep is up. This week we discuss "Slidecage" and "Asylum" http://rewatchpodcast.podomatic.com/ent … 2_12-08_00


cool, thanks!

Re: Rewatch Podcast - SLIDERS REBORN

tom2point0 wrote:

On a side note, how do you like our "Quick Impressions?" Just a bit of goofy fun!

The impressions are indeed hilarious -- they're so random and bizarre -- taking the scripts and reading them in the voices of Sean Connery and Christopher Walken. I don't understand why you would do this -- I just know that it's absurd and memorable.

Re: Rewatch Podcast - SLIDERS REBORN

Holy S-Word -- as someone currently attempting to aid Sliders Rewatch with gathering behind the scenes information on Season 4 episodes, I sent the boys THREE long E-mails today dissecting "Mother and Child" from the behind the scenes perspective to the commissioning of the script to the script itself and the filming. These are REALLY long E-mails. Those poor, poor people. I even called in Temporal Flux for extra help on this one instead of taking my usual approach of depending on memories of conversations we'd had years ago.

Re: Rewatch Podcast - SLIDERS REBORN

Oh wow. ireactions, care to share that dissection with the rest of us at some point? I'd love to read it.

Re: Rewatch Podcast - SLIDERS REBORN

Originally, I was just going to send the boys this:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/64bv60t89p1ld … d.mp3?dl=0

It's a voicemail, less than three minutes long, where I react to The Scene. But then, upon rewatching the episode for deleted scenes, I began to notice certain things and decided, instead, to send them something more analytical.

I'll see what Tom and Cory do with it -- for now, I'm leaving it for them as their exclusive. "Mother and Child" is one of the most despised episodes of SLIDERS ever made, but no one has ever looked at it with any degree of accuracy or clarity. The Scene -- the loathed, despised Scene -- no fan ever seems to be able to quote it correctly. It's as though their rage, while correct and appropriate, has warped their memory of it -- and I rewatched The Scene today repeatedly while reviewing the script, examining it frame by frame as though I were reviewing the Zapruder footage of John F. Kennedy getting shot. I think I know what happened. If there's stuff Tom and Cory decline to use, I'll share it here.

I laughed out loud when Tom and Cory remarked in their podcast that they had no messages from Earth Prime. I probably won't be writing them too many post-podcast messages as I'm now sending them my retrospectives in advance of their recording.

169 (edited by intangirble 2015-11-25 03:29:52)

Re: Rewatch Podcast - SLIDERS REBORN

...*actually laughed out loud*

I loved that voicemail. Nice little ending there.

Looking forward to what the three of you have/will come up with, in that case.

I'm glad I was prepared for The Scene when I saw it... very recently, in fact. By this time I've come to accept that anything past season 3, and large parts of season 3 itself, just isn't my show any more. It's a lot easier to look at it from that detached perspective than to actually try to reconcile a Quinn who would say that about one of his best friends.

I'm noticing a running theme with the female Kromagg Victims of the Week in these episodes. Namely: it's actually pretty rare to see a character on TV with a haircut like Wade's. Between "Mother and Child" and "Common Ground", we've had two plucky, tiny girls with pixie cuts in quick succession, like they're not even trying to be subtle. It's like they've realized what they've lost and are trying desperately to replace her. (And it's got to be killing Rembrandt.)

I notice this more generally throughout the rest of the series. As Tom and Cory mentioned, it's like the show is constantly trying to recreate the dynamic it previously had with the foursome. I've only seen one episode of season 5, but by the time we get to Requiem, we've got Diana as the Professor skeptic figure, Maggie as... Wade(!) with some of the leadership aspects of Quinn, Rembrandt as Rembrandt (thank God), and Mallory as, well, honestly I don't know what he's supposed to be, but I spent the entire episode hating him. Never have I seen anyone so completely constructed of cardboard and smarm.

But they were trying. And the fact that Maggie ends up in the nurturing Wade role of all places is some kind of mix of hilarious and sad... that they had to stretch her character this far to make her feasible, and to keep the show going.

Re: Rewatch Podcast - SLIDERS REBORN

Mallory's a very interesting character played by a brilliant actor written by some awful writers. If you've never seen Seasons 4 - 5 in their entirety, I would watch them once but have one or both of my fanfics waiting nearby.

It's true about Maggie -- one Quinn/Wade shipper with the handle Slida was grousing throughout Season 4 that SLIDERS had gotten rid of Wade in favour of Maggie only for Maggie to essentially be Wade but played by a far less compelling actress.

I just sent my FOURTH E-mail to Tom and Cory about "Mother and Child" -- about the ending of the episode. Those poor men.

Re: Rewatch Podcast - SLIDERS REBORN

I have sent Tom and Cory my fifth and final E-mail on "Mother and Child." I think I may have hit some record; surely nobody on the old Sci-Fi Bboard or the newsgroup ever wrote as much as this regarding the episode.

Re: Rewatch Podcast - SLIDERS REBORN

I can't wait for the "Mother and Child" episode of the podcast... it's going to be something special.

And possibly hilarious.

Re: Rewatch Podcast - SLIDERS REBORN

They really should break it down into a two-parter: one discussing the episode and one discussing Ib's descent into MADNESS over its execution. wink

Earth Prime | The Definitive Source for Sliders™

Re: Rewatch Podcast - SLIDERS REBORN

"Mother and Child" should have been *Quinn's* descent into madness; it wasn't and now I'm experiencing what he didn't.

After sending the boys a sixth E-mail about "Mother and Child," I did a look ahead to see which episodes will likely have extensive, multi-part E-mails from me with Temporal Flux's behind the scenes info.

Those would be "Revelations," "The Unstuck Man," "The Great Work," "New Gods for Old," "Requiem," "Eye of the Storm" and "The Seer."

Re: Rewatch Podcast - SLIDERS REBORN

...you're going to absolutely destroy "Requiem," aren't you.

Please say you're going to.

Re: Rewatch Podcast - SLIDERS REBORN

The length doesn't necessarily have anything to do with quality or even my opinion.

It's more about extremely tangled and confusing behind the scenes situations. "Mother and Child" has one of the most convoluted behind the scenes situations in the history of the series and the onscreen result is at times in stark and glaring contrast to the actual screenplay as well as the Season 4 arc -- and it's due to the season-wide circumstances as well as the situation for this one episode.

The situation is the same for "Revelations," "The Unstuck Man," "Applied Physics," "Strangers and Comrades," "The Great Work," "New Gods for Old," "Requiem," "Eye of the Storm" and "The Seer" -- the original Season 4 finale, the intention to use that finale story for the Season 5 premiere, the original plan with Jerry O'Connell before he refused to return, the initial plans for Diana Davis, the original plan for the third episode of Season 5, the removal of the Kromaggs and the interdimensional library from "The Great Work," the original story pitch for "Requiem" (which had nothing to do with Wade) and the screenplay that followed (which was hacked up for the screen), the original Season 5 finale, the plans for Season 6, the plans for the SLIDERS feature film, the series finale that Tracy Torme intended to produce that would taken place after "The Guardian" and declared everything afterwards to be apocryphal -- there's a lot to unpack. I would say that the Season 4 finale, the Season 5 premiere, the delayed Season 4 'resolution' in Season 5, the Wade-episode of Season 5 and the Season 5 finale (as planned versus as filmed) will be the long E-mails filled with analysis, information and, well -- theory.

There's a lot of bits and pieces here that I've stitched into something resembling a coherent narrative while being careful to indicate where conjecture fills in some gaps, so it's also important to distinguish between known fact and supposition.

Re: Rewatch Podcast - SLIDERS REBORN

Hey Rewatchers!

New episode is up now! "California Reich" and "The Dying Fields.' http://rewatchpodcast.podomatic.com/ent … 6_13-08_00

Re: Rewatch Podcast - SLIDERS REBORN

RewatchPodcast wrote:

Hey Rewatchers!

New episode is up now! "California Reich" and "The Dying Fields.' http://rewatchpodcast.podomatic.com/ent … 6_13-08_00


Great, thanks! Can't wait to listen!

179 (edited by RussianCabbie_Lotteryfan 2015-12-02 19:23:27)

Re: Rewatch Podcast - SLIDERS REBORN

Loved the Sean Connery / Christopher Walken "Instant Impressions" segment in a recent podcast. Very funny stuff!


The podcast is on fire.

Re: Rewatch Podcast - SLIDERS REBORN

Hmm. So I actually have some things to say about the Sliders Rewatch as opposed to say to Sliders Rewatch. I really enjoyed their take on "California Reich." I thought it was neat how they rated it really highly until the ending whereas I rate "Reich" extremely low because of the ending. The episode is handled well up to a point. The intensity and cruelty of the Stompers is riveting; the episode really evokes the viewer's fury and outrage at racism and bigotry. There is a twisted and grim satisfaction to seeing Kirk discover he's a member of the people he persecutes and assaults on a daily basis.

There's something a bit disappointing about Jerry's performance, however, in the scene where he confronts Kirk with the horror of his deeds.

KIRK: "I'm not afraid of them! I know who I am -- I don't care what their tests say!!"
QUINN: "How many people have you rounded up who said the same thing? 'It's a lie, I'm not a mongrel' -- did you listen to them then?! Will they listen to you now?"

Jerry's delivery is fine. He plays Quinn with frank practicality and morality. But that's all it is. It's fine. There just aren't enough layers there; had John Rhys Davies been on set to serve as Jerry's acting coach, I could see Jerry doing a lot more with that scene. Contempt, loathing and disgust for Kirk would be his main emotions -- but there would be a small measure of pity and it would be this pity Quinn would try to show now, because he *needs* Kirk, Kirk can get him to Rembrandt.

The ending is also a massive letdown and a total disappointment; the 'migrants' of this world are so dehumanized and the general population so racist that it's unlikely the Schick-supporters would be in any way concerned. The script seriously needed to be reworked in this area; a better route would have been to better emphasize how Schick's economic recovery plan wouldn't actually help any of his supporters; their jobs would be taken by the Eddys, and he knows that full well.

It might have been even more effective to reveal that Schick isn't actually a racist, he doesn't hate the migrants at all -- but he finds it effective to manipulate and employ hatred and ignorance in getting his constituents to overlook his failings. Ultimately, Miller's script operates on the belief that Rembrandt talking about how everyone's human matched with some body horror will shock people out of their bigotry and that's nonsense.

A more nuanced, grounded approach might have been to reveal how bigotry ultimately leaves people incapable of solving problems with ideas, facts, knowledge and information because they're instead driven by groundless, irrational, unthinking hatred of the different.

But "Reich" takes the easy way out and declares all is made well with a speech, and Kirk never has to suffer any real consequences, as Cory points out. He gets a happy ending he didn't earn.

"California Reich" is a good first draft, desperately in need of refinement and care to shape it from a clumsy but powerful episode into something more meaningful.

**

"The Dying Fields" is a disaster, one of the worst episodes of television ever made -- the only reason that it isn't is because "This Slide of Paradise" got set too low a standard and nothing's ever sunk lower. I actually felt shocked when David Peckinpah's direction was mentioned in the podcast -- for all Peckinpah's faults, the episodes he works on personally tend to be good, but "The Dying Fields" is a disaster on every level. The guest stars are awful; all these helpless humans and William Bigelow's script can't create any empathy for them. They're simply action characters killed off without emotion.

Kyra and Kryoptus are awful characters. Bigelow's script gives them stilted, awkward dialogue that no actor could possibly deliver properly, from Kyra's inability to use contractions and the Humaggs using "human" as an insult. There is absolutely no reason given in the script or onscreen for why Kyra is won over by the sliders and no sense of why Kyra thought she could survive on this world even if she convinced Kryoptus to mend his ways.

Bigelow's Kromagg dialogue feels like an awkward photocopy of other Kromaggs' this season, but there's no characterization, just surface level formality and one-note anger. And then there's the silliness of every single Kromagg character's name beginning with a K -- why? It makes it so that the Kromaggs no longer seem like a race as much as one character played by multiple actors and the only actor in Season 4 who could play a Kromagg well was Reiner Schone in "Slidecage" because he played the Kromagg-style dialogue as a man speaking English as a second language. With Bigelow's approach, the Kromaggs, more than ever, come off as actors struggling to deliver lines they don't believe in. They're not scary at all.

And "The Dying Fields" is completely pointless. The sliders blunder into this horrific situation of humans being kidnapped by Kromaggs and made to fight. The sliders fail to save anyone. All the humans die. The sliders accomplished nothing. They might as well have never come into the episode. We gained no insights into the Kromaggs other than Bigelow not understanding how to write them even in terms of their Season 4 incarnation. Pointless, ugly and dull.

Cory and Tom highlighted a shocking moment of incompetence on David Peckinpah's part: at one point, Colin is held at gunpoint by Kyra. Quinn is in the shot, behind Kyra, unseen by Kyra -- and then he promptly flees and abandons his brother.

In the script, Colin was alone when Kyra captures him and Quinn, in hiding, only spots that Colin's been taken when Colin is hauled past him. For whatever reason, Colin's capture and Quinn in hiding were put in the same space, in the same shot -- and the result is that Quinn looks like a coward for not attacking Kyra from behind. It's impossible to take Quinn seriously as a hero after this.

It's funny how Cory and Tom say that they didn't believe Rembrandt would die, that SLIDERS wouldn't ever write a character exit without building up to it properly and making sure it had weight and impact.

...........

"The Dying Fields" has an awful script with direction that actively undermines what little integrity this script had in the first place -- it's really sad. It shows you how little the Season 4 production cared about a quality product and what's worse is that this was meant to be a hugely critical and important episode. Tom and Cory have, I believe, an exclusive on this information for "Mother and Child," courtesy of Temporal Flux. I'll leave it to them to tell you all about it soon, if they can. As I said, I sent them SIX E-MAILS about "Mother and Child," so we can hardly fault them if they feel it's too much to get into.

Re: Rewatch Podcast - SLIDERS REBORN

Rewatch and Sliderscast are both great in their own ways. I don't know exactly when I started watching Sliders, but must have been back in 96 or 97, just before it left FOX.  I watched it first run until it ended.  Then I sort of forgot about it until a few years back HUB ran reruns. I watched all them and eventually bought the DVDs.  I was hooked again.  And now these podcasts!

Re: Rewatch Podcast - SLIDERS REBORN

I'm rewatching "Net Worth" for Sliders Rewatch to help them do some research. I don't want to say too much and I want to leave this to Sliders Rewatch to discuss -- but this episode made me so very, very sad. It doesn't work on so many levels -- and the main flaw is that there is a giant Sabrina Lloyd shaped hole in this story.

Think about it. (Not that I recommend thinking too much about "Net Worth," it's terrible.)

Re: Rewatch Podcast - SLIDERS REBORN

I'm watching it too now to see what you mean. Don't have much to say yet, but I was amused by this:

http://i.imgur.com/nwgkXE5.png

Colin tips over a box from InGen. Now we know which Earth all those dinos came from...

Re: Rewatch Podcast - SLIDERS REBORN

Wow! That's priceless! big_smile

"It's only a matter of time. Were I in your shoes, I would spend my last earthly hours enjoying the world. Of course, if you wish, you can spend them fighting for a lost cause.... But you know that you've lost." -Kane-

Re: Rewatch Podcast - SLIDERS REBORN

Recent discussions, which I will not share for now, have indicated that I could be very, very, very, very, very wrong when it comes to "Net Worth." I'll explain after Tom and Cory's podcast. Nevertheless, I maintain that "Net Worth" has a giant hole in the story, a giant Sabrina Lloyd shaped hole, a massively gaping void at its epicenter. Whether this hole is specific to "Net Worth" or the general situation of Season 4 is in dispute and unlikely to ever be definitively resolved, although there's more evidence for the latter than the former.

As with "Mother and Child," I'll share everything after Tom and Cory have their say.

186 (edited by intangirble 2015-12-06 18:47:52)

Re: Rewatch Podcast - SLIDERS REBORN

ireactions wrote:

Whether this hole is specific to "Net Worth" or the general situation of Season 4 is in dispute and unlikely to ever be definitively resolved, although there's more evidence for the latter than the former.

Yeah, I think the massive gaping hole in that episode might have been overshadowed for me by the massive gaping hole in season 4 period. It seriously feels like half of those episodes were written with Wade/Sabrina in mind and they just sort of pasted Maggie in there. (Although I can see where you're coming from with "Net Worth", given it's such a hacker-focused story.)

I will admit that I feel a cringing sense of betrayal every time Quinn acts romantic towards Maggie. Not even just as a Quinn/Wade supporter, though there's that too of course - but it feels like a betrayal of Quinn's character. Sure, he's had flirtations on multiple worlds, but I can't believe that the ease and familiarity that he shows with Maggie could really exist. It's like he's forgotten all about Wade.

I mean, season 4 is like that on many levels. But I would have liked to see some grieving, some hesitation before starting a relationship because, wow, the last woman I was this close to just got abducted by the Kromaggs, I don't think I'm ready to be over that yet.

I can believe in his falling for Maggie, even if Jerry doesn't make it believable. I can't believe in him accepting her so seamlessly as a replacement for Wade.

And yeah, I know Quinn and Wade aren't a canonical "couple". It's not just that. It's the way he behaves towards her almost as if she were Wade specifically, and the way they changed her character so radically that it's practically like she is.

Anyway, looking forward to the discussions, in whatever format.

Re: Rewatch Podcast - SLIDERS REBORN

I think the reason Jerry O'Connell couldn't play a romance with Kari: she just wasn't his type. Jerry was in his early twenties, Kari was in her thirties. Jerry wasn't interested in women; he was interested in girls. If John Rhys-Davies had been around to coach him -- the only way I see it working is if Quinn lusts for Maggie, and even that wouldn't last long.

What do Quinn and Maggie really have in common? What is unique to their pairing and partnership? What would they do together when hanging out? What would they talk about over dinner? What would Quinn do to make Maggie feel special; what would Maggie do to make Quinn feel important to her? SLIDERS doesn't know. Jerry doesn't know. Kari doesn't know.

Tom tells me they did something really, really neat and super-flattering to me for the "Mother and Child" podcast, so I'm really looking forward to it. I keep meaning to put the podcasts on my phone to listen during my morning and evening commutes. Instead, the second Cory sends it to me for Earth Prime to link to their web page and promote it, I end up putting up the post and listening in the bath.

Re: Rewatch Podcast - SLIDERS REBORN

New podcast!

http://rewatchpodcast.podomatic.com/

Re: Rewatch Podcast - SLIDERS REBORN

Lester Barrie, who played Elston Diggs, is out of the acting business.  He's a minister in Southern California.

Re: Rewatch Podcast - SLIDERS REBORN

Cool to hear that Lester Barrie is doing well! I made sure to give him a big scene in SLIDERS REBORN showcasing all of Diggs' peculiarities -- not because I was enamoured with the character, but because Tom and Cory kept talking about him.

So, regarding "Lipschitz Live" and MacArthur Mallory, a character who is inexplicably Colin's stepfather with the same last name: I have no data on this, but I wouldn't be surprised if MacArthur Mallory were originally Michael Mallory to be played by John Walcutt, only for an unexpected unavailability to see the script awkwardly patched. I now await Matt Hutaff to blow this theory out of the water with his Bazooka of Truth. :-)

(You'll find this hilarious next week.)

I loved Tom and Cory theorizing how Will Sasso would have played Gomez Calhoun in "Lipschitz." I imagine he would have been less hostile, more distracted.

QUINN
Excuse me --

GOMEZ
(excited)
Shh!
(gesturing at the TV with delight)
Can't you see this is important! Guy's
got a psychic dog!

He laughs incredulously.

QUINN
I'd like a room --

GOMEZ
(not turning from the TV,
lightly indifferent)
We're booked up.

QUINN
Booked up!? This place is never booked
up!

GOMEZ
(cheerfully)
Big corporate wedding!

Gomez casually jabs a finger towards a sign on the desk, indicating that there's a TV corporate summit here.

QUINN
Then I'd like to leave a message for
my friends.

Gomez remains utterly fixed on the television.

GOMEZ
(dreamily)
D'you have a room?

QUINN
Not according to you!

GOMEZ
(distant)
Then you can't leave a message.

QUINN
Why not?!

GOMEZ
(lazily)
We're a full service hotel, but only for
guests -- no guests, no service.

He continues to watch the TV.

Later, when Colin approaches Calhoun --

COLIN
I'd like a --

Gomez holds up a finger, as though asking for a minute. Without turning around, he picks up a piece of paper and hurriedly reads off the sheet.

GOMEZ
(reading this prepared statement)
We've got no rooms, no suites, you can't leave
a message and I haven't seen any of your friends.

And then he returns his full attention to the TV. The boredom instantly disappears from his face, replaced with gleeful enthusiasm.

COLIN
(appreciative)
Thank you!

He walks off.

I thought Tom and Cory did a nice job this week. I sent them a bunch of script pages (that I wrote myself) so they'd have a lot of options for doing some Quinn and Rembrandt impressions if they were inclined to do them. They picked a really nice page to perform -- so below are the other ones.

But first -- Tom and Cory wondered why, in "The Dying Fields," the Kromaggs try to kill the sliders when they're counting on the sliders to help reclaim their homeworld. Tom theorizes that after Quinn got to the Slidecage and came back out, the Kromaggs felt that their plan had failed.

I don't think this makes much sense; the Kromaggs already knew about the Slidecage (indicated by Rembrandt's dialogue when under hypnosis in "Slidecage"), meaning someone who worked on the cage must have failed to get back to the homeworld before the doors closed and was captured and interrogated. As for why the Slidecage was set to contain rather than repel -- it was likely made so because the Kromagg Prime Michael Mallory was trying to imprison any soldiers who might otherwise wreak havoc on the multiverse from which he was isolating Kromagg Prime.

My theory would involve putting an additional scene at the end of "The Dying Fields":

EXT. HUMAGG HUNTING GROUNDS - DAY

Quinn nods to Colin -- and Colin raises the timer and triggers the vortex. It splits open the air with its blue and green energy, beckoning to the sliders. But Kryoptus brandishes his rifle --

KRYOPTUS
Nobody move! I'll kill you all --

And Kyra steps forward. She shields the sliders with her body --

KYRA
You won't!

She moves towards Kryoptus.

KYRA
You won't shoot me -- you have
feelings for me -- I can feel them!

And when Kryoptus hesitates, Kyra turns to the sliders.

KYRA
Go!

Maggie doesn't need telling twice. She sprints towards the gateway and leaps. Rembrandt follows --

REMBRANDT
Quinn, let's go!

With a flash, he's gone too. Colin dives in next and Kryoptus watches. Letting them leave. Kyra smiles with relief, and Quinn watches Kryoptus turn his gaze onto Kyra and only Kyra --

KRYOPTUS
You're right, Kyra -- I can't deny
who I am --

His hand traces her temple. He leans forward, kissing her. And as Kyra kisses him back, Kryoptus unsheathes his knife and STABS Kyra through the heart. She chokes. Her body stiffens with shock. Her eyes focus on nothing --

Kryoptus locks eyes with Kyra, brutally cold as Kyra slumps forward, betrayal in her face --

And Quinn casts a stunned look at Kryoptus  and Kyra's body on the ground. Disappointment flashes across Quinn's face -- disappointment and despair -- and then suddenly, there is nothing. Quinn watches Kryoptus yank his bloody knife from Kyra's corpse -- and we can see the blank finality on Quinn's face. The emptiness. Everything he tried to do for Kyra is lost. Change is worthless. It doesn’t exist. Life is cruel and bloody -- there is nothing worth feeling --

Kryoptus raises his rifle to bear on Quinn and Quinn dives out of the line of fire. Leaping into the vortex. Kryoptus fires just in time to miss the gateway as it closes. The burst of energy strikes a nearby structure and Kryoptus stands alone with Kyra's body at his feet.

Silence. For a moment.

Then a humvee rolls up. General Kronos climbs out with a small squad of Kromagg soldiers. General Kronos walks up to Kryoptus.

GENERAL KRONOS
The humans killed her?

KRYOPTUS
(numbly)
No. I did.

The General arches an eyebrow.

KRYOPTUS
(indicates Kyra)
The humans had turned her.
She was helping them escape.
I had no choice.

GENERAL KRONOS
And the humans?

KRYOPTUS
Three dead inside. Six more
escaped.

GENERAL KRONOS
Three kills. Well done. You surprise
me. Welcome to the Elites.

KRYOPTUS
(flat; stares at Kyra)
Thank you, sir.

General Kronos turns to the Kromagg soldiers. 

GENERAL KRONOS
Move out. We have humans in
the area.

Kronos turns back to Kryoptus, indicating Kyra's body.

GENERAL KRONOS
Dispose of that.

KRYOPTUS
Yes, sir.

Kronos walks off.

Kryoptus stares at Kyra's face, confusion expanding across his face. He kneels next to her prone, lifeless shape. Kryoptus begins to experience SADNESS, his confused emotions turning to PAIN and ACHING GRIEF.

Kryoptus lifts Kyra's motionless body in his arms and gently carries her off as we --

CUT TO:

INT. HUMVEE - DAY

General Kronos sits in the passenger seat of the Humvee. As his driver handles the vehicle and speeds along the path, Kronos reaches for the viewscreen controls in the dashboard before him.

GENERAL KRONOS
(to the viewscreen)
One-one-three. Connect me to
the cage.

There's a burst of static from the viewscreen speakers and on the screen itself -- and then on the screen, we can make out the vague figure of a person, cloaked in darkness and shadow.

GENERAL KRONOS
Your proposal was successful. The
humans have departed, never once
suspecting that they were permitted
to leave.

We see the figure on the screen shifting within the shadows -- as though bowing.

GENERAL KRONOS
Their easy escapes from Outposts 161
and 147 followed by the discovery of
their friend's sleeper programming
risked incurring their suspicions.

We can now make out the outline of the figure's garments -- a long, white gown.

GENERAL KRONOS
Your stratagem has re-established their
certainty that to contend with the Kromaggs
is to court their deaths. And soothed away any
skepticism towards their seeming
competence in defying the Dynasty.

We see the figure on screen raising a pair of hands -- clasping them together in a prayerful gesture of deference.

GENERAL KRONOS
Such calculated cruelty. Bringing one
of the humans to the brink of death
with a Nobelium weapon. Manuevering
our weakest link in the Humaggs towards
healing the human. And then letting them
leave thinking they'd scarcely survived --
your precision does your masters proud.

We see the figure on the screen parting hands in a serene movement.

GENERAL KRONOS
You are a rare credit to your kind. Tell
me, child -- how does a mere human
equal the crystalline clarity of the
Kromagg mind?

And then we see the figure learn forward, out of the shadows and into the light.

It's Mary.

MARY
I know their leader. I know his passions
and his fears.

Kronos nods, contemptuously impressed.

MARY
I know his bravado, his groundless
confidence, his arrogance and ego.
I know the strings within his heart,
how to pull and pluck as we see fit --

Kronos regards Mary on the screen as though she's an amusing pet.

MARY
Quinn Mallory is our soldier -- and he
shall be the Dynasty's greatest hero.

And Mary stares through the screen, at Kronos, at us --

BLACKOUT.

I feel like that's the only explanation that still upholds the original Season 4 arc. "The Dying Fields" was staged for the sliders' benefit. It wouldn't be the first time.

Tom and Cory did an great job of examining The Scene and noted that Jerry's acting throughout Season 4 is extremely poor. Here's the breakdown I sent Tom and Cory of all the problems with The Scene:

As filmed and aired:

REMBRANDT: (grabbing Quinn's arm) "If Wade is back there, we gotta do something! "
QUINN: (brushing off Remmy's arm and walking off-camera) "I don't know if we have enough time."

Points of concern:

  • Jerry O'Connell conveys no emotional reaction to learning that Christina knew Wade. Jerry performs a total lack of interest or attention towards Christina despite her knowledge of Wade.

  • The onscreen dialogue lacks any moment where Quinn questions Christina about Wade; he doesn't seem interested in learning more about Wade's whereabouts or well-being.

  • When Rembrandt grabs Quinn's arm, declaring they must find Wade, Jerry pulls his arm away and declares, "I don't know if we have enough time" and then walks off-camera -- giving the impression that Quinn feels no empathy or concern for Rembrandt's current state of agony and feels no need to console him.

  • As Quinn is walking away, Rembrandt shouts after him that he doesn't care if there's not enough time -- and Quinn does not respond and is off-camera, so we see no reaction.

  • Christina then establishes that Wade has already been moved off-world -- yet Jerry inexplicably had Quinn walk away from Rembrandt after "I don't know if we have enough time," indicating that if Quinn knew Wade wasn't on this world anymore, he had no intention of giving Rembrandt this information -- or that if Quinn didn't know this information, he wasn't interested in finding out anything more from Christina. The ambiguity here is clearly not intentional; something has been severely miscommunicated.

  • Cleavant Derricks plays Rembrandt in agony when hearing about Wade. Jerry O'Connell, in contrast, plays the same scene with nothing. It's impossible to discern Quinn's state of mind or motivations from Jerry's acting because Jerry is providing no information whatsoever. Jerry's same approach to acting is present in "Slidecage" when Quinn thinks Maggie is dead and Jerry takes a scene of Quinn breaking down and plays it with near-total neutrality.

  • In a later scene, Quinn threatens a Kromagg with death and demands the location of Wade Welles -- which is completely at odds with Jerry performing Quinn as indifferent about Wade in the earlier scene.

And let's look at the actual script:

REMBRANDT: "If Wade's in that camp, we've got to do something!"
QUINN: "We don't have much time -- "

So first, we have Jerry changing his line. It was scripted as a risk assessment; but Jerry changed it into a refusal. It's unlikely this was on purpose; SLIDERS hasn't worried about actors delivering lines as written since Season 3. Jerry delivered an approximation of what was on paper -- but to disastrous results, turning it from Quinn acknowledging danger to Quinn shrinking from danger.

Also: the way The Scene is blocked is bizarre: why does the director have the lead character of the show declare he's not going to try to save his friend from a rape camp? Why is Jerry made to practically dive off-camera after delivering his line? Why wouldn't the director make sure to keep Jerry and Cleavant in the same frame for this critical scene? The script does not contain any of this behaviour from Quinn. The script actually contains very little scene direction, leaving it completely open to the actors how they want to play the scene.

My theory is that Jerry was drunk on set the day they filmed this. The Scene goes out of its way to get Jerry out of shot as quick as it can -- suggesting to me that Jerry was not fit to be on camera that day. Because Jerry isn't on camera when Rembrandt protests leaving without Wade, it makes it feel like Quinn doesn't care about Wade.

So, here's the direction I would have given for The Scene.

EXT. WOODS - DAY

REMBRANDT
(desperate)
If Wade's in that camp,
we've got to do something!

Quinn nods in agreement. He starts towards the path to the camp. Rembrandt is right next to him. Ready for war.

QUINN
We don't have much time --

REMBRANDT
(determined)
I don't care. We're going down
there.

CHRISTINA
It's too late for that!

Quinn and Rembrandt freeze in place. Staring at Christina in dismay.

CHRISTINA
She's gone. The Maggs shipped
out all the other prisoners yesterday
to make way for new arrivals. Wade
was with them --

Quinn's face fills with agony. Something inside him breaks. Rembrandt is forlorn, lost, helpless...

And then with subsequent scenes -- I think this episode should have been played as Quinn Mallory's descent into madness after meeting Christina. Here's a re-directed version of the scene where Quinn questions the Kromagg soldier -- again, no changes to the script dialogue, only the direction.

EXT. ROAD - DAY
The Kromagg soldiers from the Humvee are unconscious, except one. A young soldier.

CHRISTINA
Could we go to my world?

QUINN
Only if I knew the coordinates --

CHRISTINA
They would be in the
Kromagg central data bank!

Everyone looks at the conscious Kromagg -- and Quinn storms over to him. Hauling him to his feet. Grabbing him by the collar -- and then slamming him into the side of the Humvee. The Kromagg's head bashes into the glass and Quinn's face suddenly shows a cruel satisfaction.

QUINN
(nearly spitting into
the Kromagg's face)
Okay -- ! Here's the deal!!

He leans in. The Kromagg shrinks, terrified by this furious human.

QUINN
(snarling)
You help us. Or you die!

And Quinn's voice lingers on the threat -- on some level, he's hoping the Kromagg will give him an excuse. Maggie watches this, troubled by Quinn's anger -- but she joins in, moving her Kromagg gun to the Kromagg's head.

MAGGIE
Category too difficult for you?

KROMAGG SOLDIER
I'll help --

Quinn shoves the Kromagg towards the Humvee computer, making sure that the Kromagg bangs into the door by the shoulder. His face is sadistically contemptuous.

QUINN
(cruel)
Right answer.

CUT TO:

THE KROMAGG SOLIDER at the computer keyboard. Quinn leans over to BARK IN THE KROMAGG'S ear --

QUINN
Bring up the prisoner files!

KROMAGG SOLDIER
What are we looking for?

QUINN
Pull up anything on Christina
Griffin and Wade Welles -- !

It's only with the mention of Wade's name that Quinn's angry tone softens.

KROMAGG SOLIDER
I'll need their ID numbers -- we don't
keep their human names on file --

CHRISTINA
I don't know Wade's -- but mine's Jay
Kay one one two five --

QUINN
(watching the Kromagg type)
Now cross reference! To her
homeworld!

SOLDIER ONE
(typing, suddenly astonished
by the report on Christina's
world)
File says the last of our battalions withdrew
six months ago -- !?

QUINN
Withdrew?

The sliders are amazed. Christina is hopeful.

CHRISTINA
My parents! They could be
alive.

QUINN
(to the Kromagg, dangerously)
Read off the slide coordinates!
(as the Kromagg points to the screen
and mutters digits, Quinn programs the timer)
Got it --

REMBRANDT
Now for Wade!

KROMAGG SOLDIER
But without her ID number --

Quinn throws his hand into the Kromagg's head and smashes the soldier's forehead into the doorframe of the Humvee.

QUINN
We'll do it the hard way!

The Kromagg soldier winces with pain -- and Quinn furiously pushes the Kromagg at the computer.

QUINN
Pull up records as fast as
you can!

Maggie is stunned at Quinn's behaviour. She looks to Rembrandt with concern, as does Colin, but Rembrandt has eyes only for the computer as the fearful Kromagg follows Quinn's orders --

QUINN
(to the Kromagg)
When we see her picture, we'll
stop you --

The Kromagg tenses at the threat in the words. But then, from the radio --

KORINDOS (RADIO)
Unit Four! This is Base. What are
you doing? Those are classified files!

And then on the computer, an error message shows. Quinn seizes the Kromagg by the back of his collar --

QUINN
What's the matter!?

KROMAGG SOLIDER
(reading off the screen)
Network error! 807! Please notify system
administrator --

Quinn pushes the Kromagg against the computer. Panicked. Desperate.

QUINN
Try it again!!

The Kromagg urgently types away. But the error message doesn't clear --

REMBRANDT
I don't like this -- they could be onto us,
sending other units --

Quinn nods grimly --

QUINN
Right.

Then Quinn suddenly yanks the Kromagg from the Humvee computer and throws him to the ground. He looms over the Kromagg solider -- and throws a kick into the soldier's face. The Kromagg's hands raise just in time to brunt the force of the kick -- but then Quinn kicks the Kromagg in the STOMACH -- in the HEAD --

And then Maggie grabs him by the shoulder. Quinn spins around. A moment of shock, but then his face becomes stoic and he steps away from the fallen Kromagg, moving back towards the Humvee --

QUINN
(calm)
Colin! Maggie! Everybody on board!
We're getting out of here.

And he moves towards the driver's seat, this loss of control abruptly buried.

Tom and Cory didn't understand: why does the Kromagg soldier follow Quinn's instructions to pull up prisoner files? The only way to make this scene work is for Quinn to be absolutely terrifying, so enraged, so out of control that no sane person would be able to refuse him anything.

Jerry failed to play this scene correctly or apply any additional characterization to the words, resulting in a massive plot hole. One might say that that's the writer's fault -- but it's an actor's job to make the material come alive.

A subsequent scene also has a strange moment where a Kromagg says of the sliders:

KREESHAX
We were ordered not to detain them, but
things have changed. They are now
considered to be extremely dangerous
and to be taken down by whatever means
necessary.

Why do the Kromaggs suddenly want the sliders dead? And if there's now a kill-order on the sliders, why doesn't Korindos shoot them all at the end?

The answer I suggest: in "Mother and Child," the sliders went to Outpost 71 -- Christina's world on which a deadly anti-Kromagg virus was released into the atmosphere. Travel to Outpost 71 is a Kromagg capital crime as the Kromaggs are trying to contain the virus. The sliders going to Outpost 71 overrode the protective order and called for their deaths.

As far as the Dynasty's concerned, the chance of reclaiming Kromagg Prime isn't worth the risk of the sliders getting the virus.

This is clearly not the writer's intention. If it were, the line would be adjusted to: "We were ordered not to detain them, but they have travelled to Outpost 71. The protective order is countermanded; they are now considered to be extremely dangerous and to be taken down by whatever means necessary."

It explains why Korindos doesn't shoot all the sliders the second he has the antidote and the baby. If the Dynasty has a cure for the anti-Kromagg virus, then Outpost 71 will no longer under Kromagg quarantine and the Kromagg Prime plot is back in play. Korindos is risking execution by travelling to Outpost 71; he can get away with it by producing the antidote, but the Dynasty won't excuse Korindos for torpedoing their intentions to use Quinn as their unwitting agent if the antidote eliminates the risk. Tom's explanation is fine for a scene here and there, but my explanation covers everything -- because I'm an obsessive lunatic and Tom is comparatively normal.

Anyway. With the above revisions, we now have an episode entering dangerous territory; the sliders have no protection from Kromaggs on Outpost 71, Quinn is emotionally self-destructing -- and I would end Quinn's character arc in "Mother and Child" with the following sequence -- again, this is taken from the script, no dialogue altered, just the direction for the actors:

EXT. BACKYWARD - DAY
Korindos, holding the baby and the laser gun, backs into the yard. The sliders, Jonathan and Christina follow, held at bay by the gun.

Korindos hits a switch on his belt. Activating a VORTEX that opens behinds him. He starts backing towards the open vortex --

We see Quinn's watching this with icy fury, his mouth tight, his fists clenched --

But it's JONATHAN who CHARGES at Korindos. Korindos FIRES the laser pistol -- Jonathan takes a hit in the chest and KEEPS GOING. Korindos tries to leap into the vortex, but Jonathan GRABS Korindos BY HIS BIOHAZARD SUIT and pulls him back. Korindos SHOOTS Jonathan again, but Jonathan grips the suit tight, his body shielding the sliders from Korindos' gun --

And the sliders RUSH forward. All of them tag-teaming Korindos. Quinn grabs Korindos by the shoulder. Rembrandt grabs Korindos' gun-arm. Colin wrests the gun from Korindos' hand. Maggie GRABS CHRISTINA'S BABY and pulls the child away --

And then Quinn pounces on Korindos. His face is crazed with rage -- he shoves a knee straight into Korindos' stomach. Korindos gags --

Quinn grabs Korindos by the suit, then forces him backwards, farther from the sliders. He KICKS Korindos' legs out from under him. The Kromagg falls. And a split-second after Korindos' back has hit the ground, Quinn drops right on top of him, pinning the Kromagg. The disarmed commander looks up at Quinn from within his helmet. Smug even in defeat.

KORINDOS
You can't win.

Even lying flat on his back, Korindos expresses dismissive contempt.

KORINDOS
You must know that --

And then Quinn's face shows DEMENTED HATRED --

QUINN
(spitting out the words)
No! I don't know that! You see --

Quinn raises his arms, wrapping one hand around a fist and swings down STRAIGHT INTO KORINDOS' throat.

QUINN
(screaming)
I'm only human -- !!!

And then whatever he says next is lost in howling fury. It's impossible to make out Quinn's words -- it could be noise, it could be Wade's name -- he SHRIEKS with uncontrolled anger as he drives his fists into the fallen Kromagg over and over again -- you can't tell if he's shouting or crying --

From a distance, Maggie is pressing the baby into Christina's arms and then looks at Quinn's frenzied assault. She's horrified. Rembrandt and Colin are stunned but frozen --

And we go back to Quinn. He strikes Korindos in the throat once more and then stops for a moment. Seething. Shaking.

Inside the suit, Korindos has coughed up enough blood to smear the helmet visor. He's beaten and helpless. But Quinn looks down at this Kromagg, seeing Christina's rapist, Wade's captor --

And then Quinn notes the breathing hose in the front of the suit. Protecting Korindos from the lethal virus in the air of this Earth. And Quinn reaches for the hose, grips it and PULLS. The hose is TIGHTLY inserted, it resists Quinn's hand -- Korindos' mouth forms a plea for mercy --

And Quinn TEARS THE HOSE from the suit.

Korindos' face tightens into a rictus of agony. His body seizes. Convulses. From inside the suit, there's the sound of choked inhalation as Korindos struggles to breathe air that's poisoning him. And Quinn watches as Korindos unleashes a terrible, shuddering, gagging noise and is silent and still.

Quinn looks away -- looking backwards, looking at Rembrandt, at Maggie, at Colin and Christina. Horror and regret in his eyes, his body still shaking with rage -- and the sliders look at Quinn with sadness and pity.

And then Jonathan lets out a gasp. Christina runs to her fallen father, holding her child in his arms. Jonathan's eyes show the life fading from him. He looks at his daughter and grandson one last time.

JONATHAN
Take good care of him.

CHRISTINA
Oh, Daddy --

JONATHAN
Don't cry, love. Don't cry...

Christina holds the baby up so Jonathan can see him.

CHRISTINA
He has a name now. Jonathan.
After you.

But Jonathan is gone.

And Christina weeps over her father's body while Quinn remains on top of the helpless, disarmed and defeated soldier he just murdered in a fit of rage.

FADE TO:

EXT. GRIFFIN HOUSE

Colin, Maggie and Rembrandt come out of the house. Christina and the baby are with them. Quinn is standing on the grass, gazing off into the distance. Blank and lost. He can hear them coming behind him.

Quinn, not looking at Christina, addresses her.

QUINN
You know, there's no guarantee
where we'll go. We could slide
right into a Kromagg war or
some other madness --

He trails off on the last word. Madness.

CHRISTINA
There's nothing for me here.
(indicating her child)
Or for him.

Quinn finally turns. He looks at the child. The infant born from an act of violence and violation. And he looks at Christina. She cradles the child, gentle and caring. She was raped. But now she's here. Alive. Intact. Kind and loving.

There's a flicker of hope in Quinn's face. For himself. For Wade. He nods to Christina. He will take her to a new world and a new beginning.

191 (edited by intangirble 2015-12-07 19:48:58)

Re: Rewatch Podcast - SLIDERS REBORN

...seriously, Diggs is a minister? What church? I really need to attend the Church of Diggs now.

Augh, I think I sent my email to the wrong address last time. *the*rewatchpodcast, not rewatchpodcast, right? Damn confusing generic names. And speaking of communication errors - ireactions, are my PMs reaching you at all?

But Cory, Tom, ireactions - I had a serious lump in my throat listening to the dramatic reading of ireactions' script. As in, I was driving and I very nearly had to pull over just from how intense it was. I loved the script when I first read it, and that reading really brought it to life. Wow.

Such a lot to think about. And such a sad sense of loss, at the many improvements that could've been obviously, and trivially, made.

Re: Rewatch Podcast - SLIDERS REBORN

intangirble wrote:

...seriously, Diggs is a minister? What church? I really need to attend the Church of Diggs now.

Bible Believers Missionary Baptist Church in Lakewood CA

http://www.biblebelieversmbc.org/meet-the-pastor

Re: Rewatch Podcast - SLIDERS REBORN

Heh... That's about an hour away.

I may just have to go see him.

Re: Rewatch Podcast - SLIDERS REBORN

Well, this is embarrassing. I have not been looking at my private messages on this forum. I will from now on.

I have been a bad moderator. As punishment, I shall watch "Data World." And also because -- I have to. I'll respond to the PMs tomorrow.

Re: Rewatch Podcast - SLIDERS REBORN

The presence of the Colin double does not preclude the possibility that he is a clone of Quinn.  It just means the Colin double is also a Quinn double.  We know doubles don't always look like the characters.  See Logan St Clair and any time Rembrandt's double is played by Cleavant's brother.  The Kromaggs would have made the quickest and easiest adjustment to make Colin look different from Quinn, which means a Colin double is a likely look for a Quinn double.

Re: Rewatch Podcast - SLIDERS REBORN

It doesn't even have to be a clone, just a real Colin brainwashed like Rembrandt and/or Rembrandt's dad. This allows for doubles while keeping the arc intact. It also removes the incredulous idea that the Kromaggs can clone humans but can't seem to do the same for Kromaggs!

Earth Prime | The Definitive Source for Sliders™

Re: Rewatch Podcast - SLIDERS REBORN

Transmodiar wrote:

It doesn't even have to be a clone, just a real Colin brainwashed like Rembrandt and/or Rembrandt's dad. This allows for doubles while keeping the arc intact. It also removes the incredulous idea that the Kromaggs can clone humans but can't seem to do the same for Kromaggs!

That's also possible.

Being able to clone humans and not Kromaggs is defensible as well.  Kromagg DNA could be more complex.  Maybe they can clone Kromaggs but they know it's a dead end in terms of saving the species.  Replicative fading would set in after only a few generations.  Maybe they have ethical issues with cloning their own that they don't have with lesser species like humans.

Re: Rewatch Podcast - SLIDERS REBORN

Well, let me ask you this: what's a bigger priority for a Dynasty that can't have children? Solve that problem, build a series of breeding camps to create half Kromagg, half human children (ensuring the Dynasty's extinction in 2-4 generations), or master the cloning of human beings?

Earth Prime | The Definitive Source for Sliders™

Re: Rewatch Podcast - SLIDERS REBORN

Transmodiar wrote:

Well, let me ask you this: what's a bigger priority for a Dynasty that can't have children? Solve that problem, build a series of breeding camps to create half Kromagg, half human children (ensuring the Dynasty's extinction in 2-4 generations), or master the cloning of human beings?

They may have perfected human cloning before the attack that stopped them from having children.  Maybe they got the human cloning technology from a world they conquered and found it didn't work on Kromagg DNA.  Maybe they are cloning Kromaggs on some worlds we didn't see.

You're also assuming the Dynasty will act rationally.  That has not been the norm for Kromaggs we've seen.  They act from emotion over reason almost all the time.

Re: Rewatch Podcast - SLIDERS REBORN

I suspect the problem is this: when Marc Scott Zicree laid down the Colin-clone plot, there was no concept for the Kromaggs being essentially sterilized. Then "Genesis" sent Wade to a rape camp and Zicree frantically suggested that the Kromaggs needed rape camps because they were otherwise unable to reproduce and continue their race, which contradicted the idea that Kromaggs could create clones. The Colin-double did not curtail the idea that Colin was a clone; the "Lipschitz Live" Colin could have also been a clone -- a test subject to see if the human behavioural conditioning would allow a clone to function among other humans.

Another thought on the confusing nature of McArthur Mallory being Colin's stepfather yet having the same last name -- maybe he's a cousin or brother or some other relative of Michael Mallory, whom Amanda Mallory fell for and married after Michael's death. It happens.

Tom took issue with the Earth Prime review where Lloyd Quinto, writing as a Kromagg, declares that he loved "Mother and Child" and also loved Wade Welles several times a day for months on end. To me, that is a clear critique and condemnation of David Peckinpah, "Genesis" and Kari Wuhrer. Kari Wuhrer, when asked how Sabrina would be written out, replied -- and I quote -- "With some humour! You see, she's good breeding stock!" Peckinpah also thought it was hilarious and would upset Sabrina Lloyd. Quinto's review shows how unacceptable such humour is; rape is not a laughing matter, it's not a situation that can be raised and forgotten; it haunts and lingers and is forever present. The review started out as an amusing piece of Kromagg propaganda, so transparently delusional and deceitful that it's funny -- only for the fun to be revealed as sickening and poisonous. The fact that Tom reacted the way he did is a credit to the writing.

By the way, I am really short on behind the scenes info for "Data World," but Kari Wuhrer keeps grabbing her breasts throughout the episode. I theorize that her implants leaked during this episode and were causing soreness and pain. Having little else to discuss, I am going to supply Tom and Cory with enough information to perform an oral history of Kari Wuhrer's breasts and their relevance to commodification and objectification of women in visual media. (Not that they'll be obligated to do it.)