Re: Marvel Cinematic Universe by Slider_Quinn21

I've finished the series.  Overall I was not a huge fan of season 7.  I think the story was mucky and disjointed, and honestly could have been told in 3 or 4 episodes rather than 13.  The finale was I would say a very satisfying conclusion, very much in the way that long series used to be concluded in the 90's.  It was a marvelous series that I shall miss dearly.

Re: Marvel Cinematic Universe by Slider_Quinn21

ireactions wrote:

Season 5 season looks like it was filmed in someone's basement and they clearly don't have the money for the extras and location filming that they once had. Excellent character-oriented writing and the stories are as strong as ever, but every episode feels like a bottle episode with only a few exceptions this year. I love the scripts, but the visual quality of the show has gotten frustratingly claustrophobic with the team constantly advancing down dimly lit hallways to get to more dimly lit hallways.

Slider_Quinn21 wrote:

By the way, since you said it, I haven't been able to unsee how every episode of Agents of SHIELD takes place in a dim corridor.

When, in this week's episode, they confront Gravity Man in his neighborhood, the natural light nearly blinded me.

Chloe Bennett (Daisy) wrote:

You’re telling me! Every day we were literally in those hallways, and if a scene was two minutes long we were there for seven hours. It was really, really exciting for the cast and the crew to get out of the stages and get out of the gray space hallways, because it does affect your mood. https://tvline.com/2020/08/13/agents-of … -hallways/

Jeffrey Bell, Producer wrote:

I wish we didn’t live in so many corridors because we had no money.

The way it works is, you know, there’s a pattern budget, we get the same amount for every episode. And so one of the things that we’ve gone to ABC about—and they’ve been good about—is we say, this week we want to have tuna sandwiches for lunch, so that next week we can have, like, a five-course meal.

And the problem is, we started in the 1930s and spent all our money. We just got backlot period costumes, which energized everybody and got everyone really excited. But we have the same amount for every episode.
So it’s up to us and our our wonderful line producer, Garry Brown, to really be able to do that. You know, we’re a network show with not a lot of money.

And so we’re sad when the corridors are more than we want—you know, we’re as aware of them as you have been from time to time. And it’s not what we want, it’s just all we can afford to do. We do try and save, so that we can go out with some scope and style.

We shoot in Los Angeles, which we’re thrilled to do, but to go off the lot, it’s just a lot. It’s cheaper to go to another planet than to go to Van Nuys.

The great thing about being in space is you don’t have to go on location because we can’t afford to go on location.

https://tv.avclub.com/the-agents-of-s-h … 1844694196

Re: Marvel Cinematic Universe by Slider_Quinn21

I know that the internet doesn't exit to validate ME -- but it disappoints me that I've posted my theory of how AGENTS OF SHIELD exists alongside INFINITY WAR and ENDGAME in various Marvel and AOS forums and nobody ever responds to it, not even to disagree with it, identify flaws in it, debunk it or replace it. I expected that someone would at least tell me why they think it's wrong, but in every debate on how the Snap fits into AGENTS OF SHIELD or doesn't, my remarks are invariably ignored.

To me, the sequence of events for INFINITY WAR, Season 5 - 6 of AGENTS OF SHIELD and ENDGAME is:

  1. Thanos' forces attack in New York (INFINITY WAR)

  2. Daisy and Talbot fight in Chicago ("The End")

  3. The attack in Wakanda takes place (INFINITY WAR)

  4. Daisy is triumphant over Talbot. The Zephyr flies May and Coulson to Tahiti and lands on the beach ("The End")

  5. Thanos' Snap erases 50 per cent of all life in the universe including the entire cast of AGENTS OF SHIELD (INFINITY WAR)

  6. Five years later, Banner performs the unSnap. All the missing are restored including the agents aboard the Zephyr (ENDGAME)

  7. The agents, unaware that five years passed in the seconds they experienced, bid farewell to Coulson and May who disembark in Tahiti while the agents fly off to search for Fitz ("The End")

  8. Earth rebuilds and resumes normalcy (SPIDER-MAN FAR FROM HOME)]

  9. The agents realize from the news that they ceased to exist and were then restored and the Snap is ultimately less traumatic than any of their other recent experiences (off camera)

  10. Fitz's ship is attacked ("Missing Pieces")

  11. A year passes with the agents searching for Fitz still ("Missing Pieces")

I've come to wonder if this theory prompts a contemptuous disdain that is so vehement that it cannot be voiced.

Re: Marvel Cinematic Universe by Slider_Quinn21

I think it works, but AoS did a good-enough job in the last two seasons of simply ignoring the movies (in retaliation for themselves being ignored) that just about any theory works.  I did have my own thoughts, but it requires spoilers:

S
P
O
I
L
E
R
S

There's a moment in the last couple episodes that they discuss the idea that they're no longer in the same universe - that they're on a diverging timeline.  Although this doesn't exactly jive with what we understand about this via Endgame, I was actually thinking at the time that it was a fairly genius way of dealing with everything.  They'd literally chart their own course and end up in a completely different universe - maybe on where there are no Avengers or Fury or anyone they'd need to step around.

It worked well enough in my head that I actually was a bit disappointed when it didn't happen.

Re: Marvel Cinematic Universe by Slider_Quinn21

Slider_Quinn21 wrote:

I think it works, but AoS did a good-enough job in the last two seasons of simply ignoring the movies (in retaliation for themselves being ignored) that just about any theory works.  I did have my own thoughts, but it requires spoilers:

S
P
O
I
L
E
R
S

There's a moment in the last couple episodes that they discuss the idea that they're no longer in the same universe - that they're on a diverging timeline.  Although this doesn't exactly jive with what we understand about this via Endgame, I was actually thinking at the time that it was a fairly genius way of dealing with everything.  They'd literally chart their own course and end up in a completely different universe - maybe on where there are no Avengers or Fury or anyone they'd need to step around.

It worked well enough in my head that I actually was a bit disappointed when it didn't happen.

Speaking with the New York Times, Jed Whedon said that was indeed the explanation -- that the Snap happened some time during Season 7, but the Agents dodged it as they were time travelling and moving to different timelines via the quantum realm when the erasures took place. The explanation was filmed. It was cut for time. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/12/arts … inale.html

However, this explanation would have contradicted Season 5, episode 22, "The End" in which the Thanos-directed attacks on New York City and Wakanda are happening concurrently with the Agents confronting General Talbot in Chicago. But from Season 6 onwards, the writers wrote each script as though it were before INFINITY WAR even though Season 5's finale had led right up to the conclusion of INFINITY WAR.

As the filmed explanation wasn't onscreen, I'd prefer to go with the original authorial intent of the TV and film productions -- that it is all one shared universe unfolding on one timeline. Why isn't the Avengers tower visible in the Netflix shows that didn't wish to spend the money on the effects? Because Stark was testing out a new cloaking mechanism (as seen on the Zephyr) and made the building invisible. Why didn't the Snap take place during any Season 5 or Season 6 episodes? It happened between scenes of "The End."

Re: Marvel Cinematic Universe by Slider_Quinn21

Still relevant.

Coulson wrote:

Good evening. As you all know, a HYDRA facility was destroyed yesterday. HYDRA told you that it was an act of terrorism. They told you an Inhuman named the Patriot murdered civilians. What they told you was a lie. We're going to show you what really happened.

This footage was taken from the body-cam of a high-level HYDRA operative. HYDRA used this "enlightenment center" to brainwash anyone who dared to question them. Jeffrey Mace saved these people, but HYDRA was willing to kill them just to maintain their lie. Once you see this footage, the truth is undeniable.

HYDRA doesn't think we're smart enough to know when we're being fed alternative facts to keep us afraid. To keep them in power. Remember -- there are more of us than there are of them. And now that we know the truth, we have a choice to make.

We all have the opportunity to be patriots. Will you take a stand? Are you going to hold them accountable?

Throughout history, we've seen empires rise and fall and HYDRA was corrupt from the start. It was founded by the Nazis.

A wise man once told me that a person can do anything once they realize they're a part of something bigger. It's taking me a while to understand that. For years I was just a face in the crowd, a history teacher who spread HYDRA's lies. They seemed too imposing for any one person to fight.

But now, I'm choosing to stand up. To become a part of something bigger. I really do believe that together we can accomplish anything. Because the truth is, I'm not just a history teacher.

My name is Phil Coulson. And I'm an agent of SHIELD.

Re: Marvel Cinematic Universe by Slider_Quinn21

I finished Season 7 of AGENTS OF SHIELD. I liked it. I really, really liked it. Despite the budget issues (hallways followed by hallways and more hallways), there was enough outdoor location filming in the first four episodes that the final nine, set in space, seemed appropriate in being set-bound. I loved the way the credits changed for each era.

I found making May into Counselor Troi from STAR TREK with empathic powers to be... a peculiar choice, to put it mildly. I don't really understand why they went that route with this reserved, physical character or how it served her despite being relevant to the plot with her ability to sense inhuman (haha) impostors.

I felt uncomfortable with Coulson being resurrected as a robot. I'm not sure the show dedicated enough time to confronting that this Life Model Decoy is not Coulson. It is a simulacrum of Coulson. It is a digital approximation. A guess. A pastiche. Admittedly, the counterfeit nature of Coulson fits in with AGENTS OF SHIELD having always struggled with the possibility that it isn't canonical to the Marvel Cinematic Universe movies, but the show doesn't really question the idea that the LMD Coulson should be accepted as the genuine article. As far as the show is concerned, Coulson is merely within a different physical form and the copied brain pattern from the end of Season 4 can be considered acceptably real.

The show definitely nods to it with the Chronicoms telling Coulson that he shouldn't be fighting for humans as he isn't even human at all, just a parody of one, but Coulson doesn't struggle with that. I'm not sure it would even be in character for him to be troubled by it, I admit. Coulson is my favourite superhero because he confronts endlessly deranged situations with can-do calm and positivity.

**

I really liked how Sousa from AGENT CARTER got a happy ending with Daisy Johnson. I wonder if / how / when the SHIELD we saw at the end of AGENTS OF SHIELD will be integrated (if at all) into the Marvel movies to come. All in all, I really liked Season 6 and 7 and I was relieved that after the endless dim hallways of Season 5, Seasons 6 - 7 were able to liven up the show a bit visually and provide a pleasing post-ENDGAME epilogue to the first five years.

It was a very good show and I will miss watching Chloe Bennett throw things around telekinetically and I will miss how the show kept reinventing itself every year, going from a children's spy show to renegade agents to facing down scientific madness in Inhumans and Hive to tackling magic with Ghost Rider and artificial intelligence with LMDs and the Framework and then space and aliens and then a season of time travel.

I think what I'll miss most is AGENTS OF SHIELD's mastery of switching from action and danger to sentiment. Season 3's grand action climax gave way to archenemies Lincoln and Hive sitting quietly in a shuttle about to burn up, contemplating the world they were leaving behind. Season 4 had the Framework version of Ward seeking forgiveness for his counterpart's crimes and Coulson delivering a speech against the Trump administration. Season 5 had Coulson confronted with the possibility that AGENTS OF SHIELD wasn't canon. Season 6 had Gemma and Daisy get high in an alien casino and blunder through a rescue mission. Season 7 had Mac telling Daisy that even if the team went their separated ways, they'd always be friends.

I hope to see Coulson again.

Re: Marvel Cinematic Universe by Slider_Quinn21

Chadwick Boseman has passed away.
https://variety.com/2020/film/news/chad … 234753232/

Re: Marvel Cinematic Universe by Slider_Quinn21

Very sad.  This one shook me up more than most celebrity deaths because he seemed like such a nice guy, and he did so much even though he must've been mad at the world and felt so, so sick.

I have thoughts on the effects on the MCU, but I'll save them for a more appropriate time.

Re: Marvel Cinematic Universe by Slider_Quinn21

Chadwick Boseman saved me from a prison sentence.

I once had a very abusive employer who would deliberately give me vague instructions and scream at me for failing to meet the unspecified specifics. Who would give me assignments and then deny having done so, screaming at me for doing unsanctioned work. Who would then scream at me for not doing assignments she hadn't assigned. Who would accuse me of stealing from her office if she couldn't find something. Who would accuse me of sabotaging her computer if she forgot how to turn it on. I filed an abuse and harassment complaint and she was no longer employed. But I was still seething and furious from the constant, daily attacks. The indignity. The cruelty. I wasn't satisfied that she'd been chastised and dismissed; I wanted her to suffer more pain, more grief, more agony.

One night, in a fit of rage, I looked up where she lived and decided to burn her house down and then flee the country. But since I'd purchased my ticket to CIVIL WAR a week in advance, I had to see the movie first.

I'm glad I did. I'm I saw it on opening night. I'm glad Zemo's vengeful vindictiveness made me uneasy. I'm glad I heard Chadwick Boseman, playing T'Challa, tell Zemo, "Vengeance has consumed you. It's consuming them. I am done letting it consume me."

It made me realize that as angry as I might be, it wasn't worth destroying my own life and getting a criminal conviction for a passing moment of satisfaction. It made me realize that I had to stop thinking of transgressions, past or present, as something for which I had to mete out punishment or get even. It made me realize that self-defence is one thing, but actively pursuing people for past wrongs simply to satisfy a desire to strike back was a massive waste of time and only would only ever damage my own life and well-being. That repairing the damage they'd done was more important than hurting them back.

I would probably be in jail for arson right now if I hadn't seen CIVIL WAR when I did and if Boseman's performance hadn't been as moving as it were.

661 (edited by Transmodiar 2020-09-01 14:06:26)

Re: Marvel Cinematic Universe by Slider_Quinn21

ireactions wrote:

Chadwick Boseman has passed away.
https://variety.com/2020/film/news/chad … 234753232/

This hits hard because he is my age (a few months younger) and I was recently diagnosed with cancer. Fortunately, my medical outcome looks a little rosier.

Dude was badass. He will be missed.

ireactions wrote:

One night, in a fit of rage, I looked up where she lived and decided to burn her house down and then flee the country.

:-O

Earth Prime | The Definitive Source for Sliders™

Re: Marvel Cinematic Universe by Slider_Quinn21

Transmodiar wrote:
ireactions wrote:

Chadwick Boseman has passed away.
https://variety.com/2020/film/news/chad … 234753232/

This hits hard because he is my age (a few months younger) and I was recently diagnosed with cancer. Fortunately, my medical outcome looks a little rosier.

Shit, man.  Here's to a quick and full recovery.  Kick its ass.

Re: Marvel Cinematic Universe by Slider_Quinn21

You know, Matt, if you're going to tell people you have cancer, you might also be specific in letting them know what you told me -- that you appear to be out of the woods but will be getting regular checkups. Much in the same way a once-potential arsonist might assure his readers that his days of wishing death and destruction for past slights and misdeeds are behind him.

Transmodiar wrote:
ireactions wrote:

One night, in a fit of rage, I looked up where she lived and decided to burn her house down and then flee the country.

:-O

Yeah, it's a good thing I didn't do this, or I would have been on your doorstep the next morning asking to pitch a tent in your backyard. The life of a criminal is not for me.

Re: Marvel Cinematic Universe by Slider_Quinn21

lol "pitch a tent"

Earth Prime | The Definitive Source for Sliders™

Re: Marvel Cinematic Universe by Slider_Quinn21

Well, I wouldn't have wanted you to be in a CIVIL WAR type situation like Steve Rogers being in trouble for harbouring a fugitive. If I camped out in your backyward, you could claim you didn't know I was there.

Re: Marvel Cinematic Universe by Slider_Quinn21

ireactions wrote:

Well, I wouldn't have wanted you to be in a CIVIL WAR type situation like Steve Rogers being in trouble for harbouring a fugitive. If I camped out in your backyward, you could claim you didn't know I was there.

You do know there are other definitions for pitching a tent, right?

Earth Prime | The Definitive Source for Sliders™

Re: Marvel Cinematic Universe by Slider_Quinn21

I'm not aware of these other definitions, but because it's you, I'm sure it's some juvenile sexual euphemism of which I know nothing but it's likely something you'd catch and remove from one of my screenplays because it'd be distracting to a large number of readers.

Re: Marvel Cinematic Universe by Slider_Quinn21

Transmodiar wrote:
ireactions wrote:

Chadwick Boseman has passed away.
https://variety.com/2020/film/news/chad … 234753232/

This hits hard because he is my age (a few months younger) and I was recently diagnosed with cancer. Fortunately, my medical outcome looks a little rosier.


:-O

Very sorry to hear that.   Glad there has been some positive news.

Re: Marvel Cinematic Universe by Slider_Quinn21

Slider_Quinn21 wrote:

Shit, man.  Here's to a quick and full recovery.  Kick its ass.

Thanks! Looks like I did everything you asked, so it's just monitoring at this point. Gall bladder cancer is no joke but it all stayed inside that plump little bugger until they removed it, so I salute its ability to grow to twice its normal size to contain everything.

Earth Prime | The Definitive Source for Sliders™

Re: Marvel Cinematic Universe by Slider_Quinn21

I bought a Marvel Unlimited subscription. For sixty bucks, you can read almost every Marvel comic from the 60s to about 2019 through their digital app. And it's great value for the money and far better than paying $5 - $7 for a 22 page comic book. But...

It is really hard to figure out how to read the crossover storylines. For example, SECRET EMPIRE (where Captain America was rewritten by a reality-warping weapon into an Agent of HYDRA) -- it unfolds across STEVE ROGERS CAPTAIN AMERICA, SAM WILSON CAPTAIN AMERICA, THUNDERBOLTS, then SECRET EMPIRE. But the SECRET EMPIRE event reading list provided in the app is missing at least 8 - 12 issues of each series. I had to go on Wikipedia and various Wikia sites to find the complete list and then manually search for each issue within the app. The average person is not going to do this.

Marvel Unlimited also provides reading lists for characters. But they too are riddled with missing entries. Sam Wilson's era as Captain America is missing the ALL-NEW CAPTAIN AMERICA series even though that was his first solo series in the role! DAREDEVIL has a fairly complete run except after the Frank Miller issues, the 233 - 317 range is riddled with massive omissions.

But again -- it's only $60 to read whatever you want that's there. That same $60 would only get you 10 - 12 physical comic books or individual digital releases from Marvel. And it really shows how Marvel Comics is not seeking to make very much profit or even offer accessible reading material to people who want to get into their comics without needing to dive into guidebooks and lists to figure out what to read in what order just to figure out how to read one storyline. It's research and development for feature films and Disney+ and Hulu TV shows.

Anyway. I'm mostly reading 90s era DAREDEVIL (which is hilarious with very funny writing from Karl Kesel and Joe Kelly) and MS. MARVEL (Carol Danvers who will be Captain Marvel) comics from 1977. I did read the entire SECRET EMPIRE story with Captain America and I really, really liked it, although I was very relieved when the real Captain America came back and fought the Nazi Captain America.

Re: Marvel Cinematic Universe by Slider_Quinn21

Well this thread has certainly been EYE OPENING lately. 

Matt hope you're "in the clear" without obviously "going clear."

Re: Marvel Cinematic Universe by Slider_Quinn21

I like how people are jumping to conclusions over this:

https://movieweb.com/ant-man-3-kang-ree … stic-four/

No one is mentioning that Kang is from 1000 years in the future (give or take, some 75 generations removed from Reed Richards).  *Alot* can genetically happen between 75 or more couples pairing off.

According to Ancestry.com DNA testing, I’m 1% Indian, but I have zero characteristics of someone from India because the other 99% is all from Great Britain and Scandinavia.

The Fantastic Four has always had a connection to Black Panther; I think it could be easy to say one of the Richards off spring settle in Wakanda.  That would tie in more of the MCU as they like to do, and the racial difference would add to the surprise when it’s revealed Reed and Kang are related.  It’s actually a good message too - the whitest white man alive (Reed Richards) and someone of clear African descent are blood related.  We’re all related - we’re not different factions based on skin color.

Re: Marvel Cinematic Universe by Slider_Quinn21

Interesting.  I actually didn't know that.  Although with the loss of Chadwick Boseman, maybe they will try and replace him with a black Reed Richards.  I do think William Jackson Harper would be a great Reed Richards.  He could also be a great Black Panther now that I think about it.  He plays brainy well, and he's already ripped.

But, yeah, there's that theory that at some point, humanity will have enough racial mixing that we'll all be one race at some point.  So I don't have any problem with this.  They could also not have the tie to Reed Richards if they really don't want to.  I wonder if the time travel in Endgame will result in this (the Avengers create time travel which wasn't supposed to exist...more "Tony Stark" consequences).

I also read yesterday that WandaVision is still on track and might be the first part of Phase Four.  After more than a year without any MCU, it'll be interesting to see if they have a resurgence or if people will have moved on by now.

Re: Marvel Cinematic Universe by Slider_Quinn21

Cause and effect with time travel is seldom a straight line, but they actually laid groundwork for Kang in Ant-man 2.  During the trip through the quantum realm, there was a “blink and you’ll miss it” cameo of Kang’s base - Chronopolis:

https://static2.srcdn.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/Chronopolis.jpg?q=50&fit=crop&w=740&h=370

https://media.comicbook.com/2018/10/ant-man-city-quantum-1136881-1280x0.jpeg

Kang was one of those characters tied up in the Fox rights, though - he was joined with the Fantastic Four rights I guess due to the lineage

Re: Marvel Cinematic Universe by Slider_Quinn21

My favourite actress asked me if I've been watching THE BOYS and I told her I haven't and won't.

I don't want THE BOYS taken out of existence and I respect that it's got a lot of talent -- but I've read THE BOYS comics and to me, that is not what I am looking for out of superheroes.

In my mind, there are four definitive scenes for superheroes. The first is SPIDER-MAN: INTO THE SPIDER-VERSE when Miles Morales asks Peter Parker when he'll know if he's ready to be Spider-Man. Peter replies, "You won't. It's a leap of faith." Later, spurned to action, Miles climbs atop a skyscraper, throws himself off and finally swings, dispensing all his fears, doubts, insecurities, neuroses and weaknesses to realize his potential and everything he has to offer. A superhero represents the height of human achievement in a form unique to each person. A superhero reminds us of our ability to overcome our failings and be empowered by the best of ourselves.

The second superhero defining scene to me is in the recent CAPTAIN MARVEL movie where Yon-Rogg (Jude Law) tells Captain Marvel if she really wants to prove she's a true warrior, she will fight him without her powers unarmed to show she's mastered her emotions. Captain Marvel blasts him in the face and knocks him on his ass but leaves him alive, informing him, "I have nothing to prove to you," and then sends Yon-Rogg back to the Kree homeworld as a messenger to inform the empire that Captain Marvel will be ending their tyranny. Superheroes have great power, but at their best, they use their power precisely, employing precisely the amount of force that is needed and not a hair more.

The sequence of Captain Marvel being inundated with images of Carol Danvers' various defeats throughout her life only for Carol to summon to mind her memories of getting back each time is also good but didn't involve superpowers or superhero duties.

The third definitive superhero scene to me is in the "Green Arrow and the Canaries" backdoor pilot of the final season of Arrow when Mia Smoak dives through the air, lands in a crouch on a rooftop and nocks an arrow to her bow, displaying ferocity, determination and a physical acrobaticism and athleticism that arouses an intense desire in me that compels me to immediately lift some weights before hitting the treadmill. Superheroes should stir something in audiences to encourage them to eat healthy and work out, in my view.

And the fourth definitive superhero scene, for me, is in "Crazy For You" (Season 1, Episode 12 of THE FLASH) where a married couple are trapped in an overturned car struck by a powerline. The Flash extracts the husband first, then returns for the wife only for the car to explode. The husband collapses at the sight of the burning car with his wife inside only to realize she's behind him, rescued just in time by the Flash.

The first time I saw this episode, I was with a girlfriend who remarked that this teaser of the Flash saving two people had no bearing on the rest of the episode. The couple don't return for any subsequent plot function. They aren't involved with the teleporter villain of the week. They don't ever appear again; they are never even mentioned and could have been cut from the story with no impact on the rest of the episode. What was the point? The point is that a superhero's main role is not to beat people up; superheroes SAVE people. They save them from car crashes, fires, floods, earthquakes, volcanoes, urban sprawl and severe weather.

I've never seen THE BOYS, but I've read the comics and I know for a fact that the characters of THE BOYS weren't created to do any of the above. I hope people enjoy THE BOYS. But for me... thanks but no thanks.

Re: Marvel Cinematic Universe by Slider_Quinn21

I can see that.  I do wish the show did some more positive stuff in this world.  I get what they're trying to do.  That, like athletes and actors and politicians, absolute power and love corrupts absolutely.  And I find the idea of superheroes who suck at their job (the Homelander plane crash being the best example) and a group of people with no powers who bring them in.

But while the Boys are heroic, I'd love to see examples of good superheroes (other than Starlight) in this universe.  I don't necessarily need Civil War every week, but it'd be nice to see some more of the superheroes you're talking about.

Re: Marvel Cinematic Universe by Slider_Quinn21

The creator of THE BOYS, Garth Ennis, has spent a lot of time talking about how ridiculous it is that Superman and Batman would have any sense of moral standards. But to me, part of what makes the Justice League and the Avengers special is the fact that with their superhuman powers also comes a sense of superhuman empathy. Superman's microscopic vision and superhearing allow him to feel the fragility of all life around him. Batman's trauma and grief is felt with his awareness that anyone can feel helpless and lost. And in response to the Zack Snyders of the world telling superhero fans to grow up and accept that superheroes must be corrupt and cruel, I hear Dr. Abraham Erskine:

Erskine wrote:

The serum was not ready. But more important, the man. The serum amplifies everything that is inside. So, good becomes great. Bad becomes worse. This is why you were chosen. Because a strong man, who has known power all his life, will lose respect for that power. But a weak man knows the value of strength, and knows compassion. Whatever happens tomorrow, you must promise me one thing. That you will stay who you are. Not a perfect soldier, but a good man.

But, as I said, there's space in the world for THE BOYS. It's just not my world, that's all.

Re: Marvel Cinematic Universe by Slider_Quinn21

Max Landis is a monster and allegedly a rapist, but I do like his perspective on Superman.  He said in a popular video that if you're a Kryptonian on Earth, you can either save the Earth or rule it.  Those are your options.  And instead of absolute power corrupting him absolutely, absolute power has absolved him of all of the darkness that seems to affect other heroes. 

I haven't read the boys but I have had the comic version explained to me.  The way I understood it (and this was before I saw the show so it might be wrong) is that the Boys are an actual part of the government, and that they essentially step in to do the "the sun's getting low" stuff from Age of Ultron except with short-term powers and punching instead of whatever Black Widow did.

I don't know if that's exactly what the Boys is in the comics, but I think there's more room for good stuff there.  What if Superman was traditional Superman, but using his powers made him a little crazy?  What if all superheroes were the Hulk and needed a little help getting out of Hulk mode.  Then there's still the insanity and carnage from superhero fights but the heroes don't necessarily have to be bad guys.  And the good guys are people who want to save people and do good, and they throw themselves in front of gods to make that happen.

Re: Marvel Cinematic Universe by Slider_Quinn21

In the comics, THE BOYS features most superheroes as having the public image of the Avengers and Justice League, but in reality, they are serial killers, rapists and sadists with total immunity to prosecution. The Boys are a covert black-ops squad charged with supposedly 'policing' the superheroes, but the only way to police them is to kill them and The Boys start with low level heroes before making their way up the chain, except the methods they use to infiltrate and assassinate make them as monstrous as their enemies. It's all played for dark comedy and it comes to a pretty definitive and bloody conclusion.

I didn't enjoy it. But I respected it because THE BOYS forced a lot of later superhero writers to ask themselves: why is Superman a good and kind soul? Why doesn't Tony Stark abuse his wealth and power? Why isn't Captain America a jingoistic nutjob? Why are the Avengers a solid peacekeeping operation instead of a fascist regime? Why isn't Batman a murderous sociopath? In a post-BOYS era, writing these characters as they'd generally been written before but with actual reasons for their moral standards became a very important challenge.

Writers like Geoff Johns highlighted how, much like Tom Welling on SMALLVILLE, Superman lived a high celebrity and action fuelled lifestyle -- but he would generally go home to his wife or his parents at the end of the day for a family dinner and would till the land, care for cows, write newspaper stories. Even Garth Ennis, who created THE BOYS, found himself treating Superman with respect when writing him in three issues of his HITMAN comic where Superman declares, "I'm not a warrior. I'm not a soldier of any kind. I'm simply doing what I can to help." Journalism is part of Clark's public service, empowering people with knowledge. Superman rejects Max Landis' proposition that he is to rule the Earth or save it. Superman is not above the Earth, deciding its fate or dictating its course; he is a citizen of Earth. He is a man of the people.

Writers like Ed Brubaker and Greg Rucka had written Batman as a sociopathic isolationist who became so brusque and abusive that Alfred quit as butler and moved in with Robin. But subsequent writers like Grant Morrison highlighted how Batman, from his very early days, has been a teacher, mentoring the Robins, Batgirl and more and ultimately built a family around himself that would ultimately bring him back to being a man with great compassion for the weak and a nobility that makes him the equal of any superhuman. Writers like James Tynion IV and Scott Snyder would capitalize on how Batman had an instinct for building family (and publishing lines).

Writers like Mark Millar, Brian Michael Bendis and Matt Fraction changed Tony Stark quite a bit. In the 90s comics with Kurt Busiek, Tony Stark was written as a very blandly heroic, milquetoast hero. Millar, Bendis and Fraction gave Stark the Robert Downey Jr. arrogance and bombast, but they also highlighted how at the end of the day, Stark doesn't actually have any superpowers. Now-disgraced writer Warren Ellis also added to Tony Stark's persona a sense of guilt: Stark used to build weapons that were stolen by terrorists and killed millions; he is now ashamed and forever seeking redemption, hence his curtailed misuse of his privilege and money.

Captain America didn't really need too much adjustment after THE BOYS, but the comics took more care to have Cap frequently at odds with SHIELD and the United States government, at times going to all out war. But the seeds were actually sewn back in the 80s issues of DAREDEVIL by ridiculously jingoistic writer Frank Miller. Miller, like Ennis with Superman, seemed to find something greater in himself when writing Captain America.

An issue of DAREDEVIL has a corrupt general trying to steer Cap away from investigating an illegal supersoldier program, telling Cap that Cap's "loyalty" should have him defer to any order from any US Army commander. Captain America replies, "I'm loyal to nothing, General, except the Dream," a line that has defined the character since then with writers like Mark Gruenwald and Mark Waid making it clear that Captain America represents the American ideal and never the American government.

I've always liked Geoff Johns as a writer especially on Superman. A writer like Garth Ennis declares that superheroes like Superman are absurd because their decency of character is completely at odds with how people with power behave in the real world and creates superheroes that are more realistic. Why would a god on Earth work at a newspaper?

A writer like Geoff Johns, however, acknowledges that it's absurd that Superman has a day job -- but then he embraces it, reinforces it, creates new reasons for it -- because Geoff Johns understands that superheroes are myth and myths are always ridiculous. It is the ridiculous part of the myth that embeds it into the imagination along with the meaning behind the absurdity -- and realizing that ridiculous myths endure long after the realistic creations have been set aside.

Superheroes would not be as rich and meaningful as they are today without THE BOYS comic books. And we should grapple with all the questions raised by THE BOYS. But ultimately, I don't believe that we should make superheroes more like us, as bitter and as angry and as cynical and as corrupt as ourselves. We should not make Quinn, Wade, Rembrandt and Arturo argumentative, cynical, chaotic, abusive, violent or indifferent in order to reflect our own failings. We should not kill them off one by one to demonstrate how we too would perish during sliding. We should make ourselves more like them; we should adopt Quinn's resourcefulness, Wade's empathy, Rembrandt's love for life and the Professor's wisdom.

Re: Marvel Cinematic Universe by Slider_Quinn21

As someone who read and loved THE BOYS, you will likely find the television series (at least the first series, haven't watched the second yet) palatable because the writers have taken how dark and fucked the comics are and watered it all down and out. The show takes great pains to humanize the Seven, or at least Queen Maeve and The Deep. Even Stillwell. It's a good interpretation, but it is not foundationally the same as what Ennis wrote. Which is a shame, because I was really looking forward to Blarney Cock's chest getting caved in on screen. tongue

Earth Prime | The Definitive Source for Sliders™

Re: Marvel Cinematic Universe by Slider_Quinn21

I think watering down THE BOYS defeats the purpose of THE BOYS. I think humanizing the Homelander and the rest is missing the point: cruelty and savagery are part of human nature and while superheroes are supposed to represent the best of humanity, superbeings can also showcase the worst with no checks or limitations.

Anyway. I have been reading a lot of 90s era Marvel comic books on the Unlimited app and this issue of CAPTAIN AMERICA (v3) #7 from 1998 is what I want out of superheroes.

https://i.ibb.co/WGYjgmY/01.jpg https://i.ibb.co/v3BHjnp/02.jpg https://i.ibb.co/m8JWHy7/03.jpg

Re: Marvel Cinematic Universe by Slider_Quinn21

Years ago, Temporal Flux wrote an outline for a SLIDERS story. He wrote a story where Quinn becomes his own timer; the technology is implanted into his body, he can see the countdown in his brain, he emits the vortex from his eyes, he is eventually ripped apart by the interdimensional energies of sliding. I loved it and the painful irony where Quinn, a young man fascinated by machines, becoming the very machine he created and dying in the aftermath. https://web.archive.org/web/20010415171 … /ps5s.html

It didn't get a great response in the SLIDERS community which I found odd. I especially find it odd now: one of my favourite IRON MAN stories that I've been re-reading on Marvel Unlimited: "Extremis," a 2005 storyline in which Tony Stark is experiencing guilt over his past as a former weapons designer whose creations have maimed and killed innocent people all over the world. Stark faces a white supremacist militia leader named Mallen.

Mallen has ingested a designer virus called Extremis which re-engineers the human body's capacity to repair itself, heightening the Mallen's ability to regenerate from any injury, raising his reflexes, strength, speed and resilience to the point where a barehanded Mallen is faster and stronger than Stark in the Iron Man suit. Mallen beats Stark so badly that Stark is dying from internal injuries -- until he ingests a modified version of the Extremis virus himself, an altered build that puts the Iron Man suit inside Stark's own body.

The Extremis-enhanced Stark no longer wears the Iron Man suit to increase his strength and speed; he is the Iron Man suit itself, able to perceive, generate and respond to electrical signals and transmissions of any kind by thought alone to control nearly any kind of technology within his visual range. He can combine his new response time with the speed of the Iron Man suit. He can reconfigure the suit itself at will for any situation. He is Iron Man inside and out. He is the next stage of human evolution.

"Extremis" is one of the most popular and renowned IRON MAN stories ever written -- although it's helped by how Iron Man wasn't exactly inhabiting any kind of comics renaissance until "Extremis." Iron Man suffered from being written as a generic superhero with technology-based superpowers, but writers struggled with making Tony Stark as something other than Bruce Wayne with a mustache. "Extremis" started unambiguously playing his weapons designer past as shameful and something for which Stark would forever seek redemption and every subsequent writer stuck with this characterization and continued exploring the ramifications and applications of Stark with Extremis.

TF has occasionally shared his philosophy of good SLIDERS stories: he says it's not about looking at the past and asking what might have gone differently. It's about looking at the future and asking where we might be going next and what could have happened to have turned tomorrow into today.

When TF first outlined this story, we were living in a world of newspapers in street distribution boxes, phone booths on the street and the internet was an alternative to mailing letters. The next stage -- which we are at now -- is to have technology on our faces, in our ears, on our wrists and in our pockets. TF looked past that and imagined technology inside us. He saw the future.