Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Look, it's terribly embarrassing. It's all terribly embarrassing.  And disappointing.  Extremely disappointing.  And angering.

1,652 (edited by ireactions 2020-11-07 19:10:21)

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

RussianCabbie_Lotteryfan wrote:

Look, it's terribly embarrassing. It's all terribly embarrassing.  And disappointing.  Extremely disappointing.  And angering.

What are you referring to specifically? Are you alright? I know we've had some spats because I was immature and psychologically unbalanced. Those were my fault. Entirely my fault. Not yours. And in the mental clarity I have acquired after quite a bit of psychotherapy, I know that you're a very fine person and you have no more to be embarrassed by than any other average person on this Earth.

**

Informant is StarletteNovel on Twitter. I blocked him awhile ago, but I periodically check what he's been posting -- if only because my dear friend Rob lives in his town and if Informant becomes dangerous, I shall call the police.

**

My guess is that Trump, despite knowing he's lost, will make noise about legal challenges to raise money from his cult of suckers -- but the bulk of whatever he raises will go to his hairstylist and paying off the debt his campaign incurred.

**

I have generally believed that the majority of people are not malevolent. People aren't against you as much as they're for themselves. But over 70 million voters pledged their support to a madman who ignored a national pandemic. That isn't acting for themselves. That's suicide and condemning their countrymen to death. Voters against both candidates could have at least written in someone else's name and met the minimum level of decency that way. Four years ago, Quinn Mallory encouraged Slider_Quinn21 to vote for Joe the Tiger Guy and SQ21 said he found it oddly convincing. http://sliders.tv/bboard/viewtopic.php?pid=4343#p4343

RussianCabbie? Slider_Quinn21? Temporal Flux? Transmodiar? Grizzlor's weighed in, but I have to ask still.
http://sliders.tv/bboard/viewtopic.php?pid=10683#p10683

Are Americans... evil?

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Ultimately, I believe most Americans just want to live their lives.  They want to make their own decisions and live with them.  This happened tonight as the virus stricken flooded the streets of all major US cities celebrating with open champagne bottles passed from person to person - drinking after each other.

I hope that Biden will follow through with his slogans, but I fully expect a return to the old days of half the country being ignored by all politicians.  When people are ignored by all politicians for decades, they will passionately listen to the first person who acknowledges they still exist.  That was Trump.

If the goal is to avoid another Trump, then it starts with looking at who he reached and reach out to them.  I am reminded of something that was an issue early in Trump’s presidency - the idea that he would actually talk to North Korea and legitimize them.  In truth, that’s how American politicians have viewed their own country too.  Don’t talk beyond your base - you might legitimize the other side.  And so, we stay divided.

The media have sensationalized the worst parts of both halves of the country, but the majority have much more in common.  The US is one of the most charitable nations on earth; we like helping others.  I just hope that we’ll be able to continue doing so.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

My God! I just saw that footage of Biden supporters not distancing and sharing drink containers. I'm horrified. I understand euphoria, but that's just suicidal and deranged. I've written a message to Biden pleading for him to tell his constituents to stay apart and I guess we'll see if he's still doing whatever I ask him to do in my mail.

It's not really up to Biden if he'll be able to live up to his campaign promises. It depends on winning the Senate and it looks like the Democrats' last chance for it this cycle is with the runoffs in Georgia. If Democrats fail to win the Senate, I imagine that President Biden will be a genial figurehead of photo ops and speeches who addresses the working class but will ultimately be unable to pass any legislation to help them.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

I don't think Americans are evil.  I agree with TF - I think most people don't think about politics that much.  I think some think about it too much, and I think those people need to ease up.  And I think Twitter becomes a furnace for these kinds of people.  But I see the same kind of things happen with sports on twitter so I don't necessarily think it's only politics.  When you isolate yourself with people who think like you, it's easy to think everyone thinks like you.

And I don't think 70 million people stand for what Trump stands for.  I think most people can put aside the man and his personality and focus on what they want to focus on.  Just like people can put aside JK Rowling's issues and still like Harry Potter.  If you are passionate about abortion issues, I think you'll vote for the person who supports your side whether they're Jesus or Satan.

And I think that's mostly the point.  When you only think about politics once every four years, you make your decision and you forget about it.  I've always wondered if Trump was a Democrat how it would work. If he stacked the court with pro-choice judges, and if he'd made it so that gun laws would be passed to make the country safer.  If Trump fully supported BLM and was doing work on police reform and knelt during the national anthem at the Super Bowl alongside black players.  If everything about Trump was the same, but his politics were flipped....would everything else be flipped?  Would liberals swallow their opinions of Trump and vote for him because the ends justify the means?  I don't know - it's a good thought experiment for another time.

So when you add up the pro-life votes and the evangelical votes and the 2nd amendment votes and the pro-police votes and the "I'm voting with my pocketbook and that means Republican" votes and the "I've always voted Republican no matter who" votes, I think that leaves the "I like Trump" and "I'm a nazi/white supremacist" votes,, and I just don't think that number is that high.  Maybe it is.  Maybe I'm naive.

But I just don't think there are enough people that like Trump.  I think there are tons of reasons to vote for him, but I don't know how many of those reasons have to do with him.  Just like a ton of the people who voted for Biden don't know the man or what he stands for - they were voting against Trump.

And since we gave everyone the right to vote, they get to make their own decisions.

*****************

I agree with TF that the Democrats need to do much better about reaching out to people.  Just being "we aren't Trump" wasn't enough.  They didn't make a convincing enough argument or they would've won the Senate.  There are obviously people who want to vote, and a ton of those people voted Republican.  And if Joe is serious about being everyone's president, he needs to start talking to everyone. 

**************

I'm also horrified by the celebrations.  It's great that people are happy, but in two weeks, it'll be Thanksgiving.  Then Christmas.  It's still flu season.  We need to be much smarter than this.

1,656 (edited by ireactions 2020-11-08 11:39:03)

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Slider_Quinn21 wrote:

And since we gave everyone the right to vote, they get to make their own decisions.

True. But when someone acts to take away other people's votes, they no longer have the right have their decisions go unremarked upon.

As a rule, I don't criticize people for how they chose to participate in a (somewhat) fair and (nominally) free election. People have the right to go unjudged as good or bad for how they voted so that everyone can feel free to vote. And candidates must earn votes. Temporal Flux said he was probably going to write in his father's name because TF believes in term limits. Joe Biden has been in government since 1973. If Biden didn't convince TF to waive that stipulation, then Biden didn't earn his vote. Transmodiar said that Biden didn't reflect his values; if Biden couldn't make a case for Transmodiar to feel otherwise, then Biden didn't earn Transmodiar's vote either and Transmodiar was right to write in Andrew Yang.

And I totally understand why people voted for Trump in 2016. Government had ignored their desperation and suffering; Hillary Clinton was a Wall Street creature; Slider_Quinn21 and Informant were both appalled by her which is bipartisanship at is clearest -- I see why people who felt abandoned by government voted for Trump four years ago and wouldn't judge anyone for it.

However, anyone who voted for Donald Trump in 2020 voted in favour of not having a fair and free election but instead in support of a lifetime appointment for their cult leader. Trump voters supported a deranged authoritarian who declared for months that any votes for other candidates were illegal. Trump voters supported the view that any votes that weren't for Trump should not be counted. And Trump voters now are demanding that the election results be overturned.

Trump voters have lost the right to go uncriticized for how they voted in a (supposedly) equal election because they attacked the voting rights of others and 'voted' to not have an election at all.

Slider_Quinn21 wrote:

Just like people can put aside JK Rowling's issues and still like Harry Potter.

I will never put another penny in Rowling's pocket. But I still have her books on my shelf. And Harry Potter has simply left his creator behind at this point; he's so entrenched in the cultural consciousness that Rowling's existence has become irrelevant to Harry's place in the hearts and minds of his fans. Fans of Harry Potter (and I am one) need no longer be fans of JK Rowling. To quote a great American quoting a Frenchman, "Death of the author, good sir!" At some point, we separate the art from the artist -- not to justify supporting them, but to appreciate what we got out of them before even if we won't be going back to that well for anything new.

Slider_Quinn21 wrote:

If Trump fully supported BLM and was doing work on police reform and knelt during the national anthem at the Super Bowl alongside black players.  If everything about Trump was the same, but his politics were flipped....would everything else be flipped?  Would liberals swallow their opinions of Trump and vote for him because the ends justify the means?

All those ends are achieved through means that require seeing government as public service.

When Trump had clearly won the election in 2016, Obama contacted Hillary Clinton. "You need to concede," he told her. He didn't encourage her to falsely claim fraud and file lawsuits or declare a victory she hadn't won. When Trump was declared president-elect, the Obama administration committed fully to the transition, providing all documents and details and opening themselves ully to the incoming team.

Obama encouraged Trump to keep Obamacare but change the name to take credit for it. The Obama administration also provided a pandemic playbook and training for a viral contagion. Obama and Hillary claim they both offered to give Trump any advice and while it's fair to question the sincerity of that, the Obama administration's determined handover to the Trump administration indicates it was at least genuine from Obama.

Biden will not be getting that graciousness from the Trump team because Trump doesn't consider the presidency a public office, but a personal one for his own benefit. For attention and acclaim and notoriety and to prop up his failing businesses.

Biden may have to have the Secret Service drag Trump out of the Oval Office by his hair.

Slider_Quinn21 wrote:

I'm also horrified by the celebrations.  It's great that people are happy, but in two weeks, it'll be Thanksgiving.  Then Christmas.  It's still flu season.  We need to be much smarter than this.

The celebrations show that stupidity and denial is not unique to Biden or Trump voters. There are plenty of fine morons on both sides.

Slider_Quinn21 wrote:

I don't think Americans are evil.  I agree with TF - I think most people don't think about politics that much.  I think some think about it too much, and I think those people need to ease up.  And I think Twitter becomes a furnace for these kinds of people.  But I see the same kind of things happen with sports on twitter so I don't necessarily think it's only politics.  When you isolate yourself with people who think like you, it's easy to think everyone thinks like you.

I am going to defer to your judgement and TF's on this one. I'm shaky and unsure -- but at the end of the day, even if I have lost (some) trust in Americans, I haven't lost any trust in any of you.

1,657

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

They're not evil.  Trump is himself not evil, he's just a jerk off.  As I've said from day one, he's a lifelong crook with no morals or inhibitions on many things.  People looked past that for tribalism.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

The layers of amusement to this location choice are just astounding:

https://bleedingcool.com/tv/its-always- … r-seasons/

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

ireactions wrote:

My God! I just saw that footage of Biden supporters not distancing and sharing drink containers. I'm horrified. I understand euphoria, but that's just suicidal and deranged. I've written a message to Biden pleading for him to tell his constituents to stay apart and I guess we'll see if he's still doing whatever I ask him to do in my mail.


My iron grip on Joe Biden's decision-making remains intact, mostly because I write him letters begging him to do what he was going to do anyway.

Joe Biden wrote:

As I’ve said throughout this campaign, I will be a president for every American. This election is over. It’s time to put aside the partisanship and the rhetoric that designed to demonize one another. It’s time to end the politicization of basic responsible public health steps like mask wearing and social distancing.

We have to come together to heal the soul of this country so that we can effectively address this crisis, as one country, where hardworking Americans have each other’s backs. And where we’re united in our shared goal, defeating this virus.

As we work toward a safe and effective vaccine, we know that the single most effective thing we can do to stop the spread of COVID is wear a mask.

The head of the CDC warned this fall, that for the foreseeable future, a mask remains the most potent weapon against the virus. Today’s news does not change that urgent reality. I won’t be president until January 20, but my message today is to everyone, is this:

It doesn’t matter who you voted for, where you stood before Election Day. It doesn’t matter your party, your point of view -- we can save tens of thousands of lives if everyone would just wear a mask for the next few months. Not Democrat or Republican lives. American lives.

Maybe we’d save a life of a person who stocks the shelf at your local grocery store. Maybe saves the life of a member of your place of worship. Maybe saves the lives of one of your children’s teachers. Maybe saves your life.

So please, I implore you, wear a mask, do it for yourself, do it for your neighbor. A mask is not a political statement, but it is a good way to start pulling the country together. I want to be very clear, the goal of mask wearing is not to make your life less comfortable or take something away from you.

It’s to give something back to all of us, a normal life. The goal is to get back to normal as fast as possible and masks are critical in doing that. It won’t be forever, but that’s how we’ll get our nation back, back up to speed economically. So we can go back to celebrating birthdays and holidays together. So we can attend sporting events together. So we can get back to the lives and connections we shared before the pandemic.

It doesn’t matter whether or not we always agree with one another. It doesn’t matter who you voted for.

We are Americans and our country is under threat. We’re now called to do the same thing that generations of proud Americans have done when faced with a crisis throughout our history. Rise above our differences to defend the strength and the vitality of our nation. That’s the character of patriots. That’s the character of America.

We have to do this together.

Wearing a mask seems like a small act. Maybe you think your individual choice won’t make any difference. Throughout our history, throughout the history of our nation, we’ve seen over and over how small acts add up to enormous achievements. It’s the weight of many small acts together that bend the arc of history.

I know there’s nothing that the American people can’t accomplish when we work together, as one people, with one mission. We can get this virus under control, I promise you. We can rebuild our economy back better than it was before. We can address race based disparities that damage our country. It’s in our power.

So let’s wear a mask. Let’s get to work.

Thank you. May God bless you. And for all those who have lost somebody, our heart goes out to you. We know what it’s like. Our heart goes out to you. May God protect our healthcare workers and all Americans. Thank you.

https://www.rev.com/blog/transcripts/jo … wear-masks

1,660

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

These are just layups at this point, "a trainee and two chimpanzee's could fly her."  Trump was incapable of this.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Is anyone out there tracking what sort of lawsuits the Trump campaign is filing and which ones have been denied already?

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Time has a list: https://time.com/5908505/trump-lawsuits-biden-wins/

Slate says that Trump's lawsuits are silly, sad and totally pointless, likely just being filed because it allows Trump's staff to do some busy work to assuage the boss' demands while waiting out the last 10 weeks of the Trump administration. I hear the last days of the Hitler household were much like this. 
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/202 … y-sad.html

I hope the Secret Service ends up dragging Trump out from under the Resolute Desk on live TV.

1,663 (edited by Slider_Quinn21 2020-11-10 08:06:25)

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Okay, reading all that made me feel better.

I also looked up Informant's twitter.  That made me feel worse.

********

So now the only real threat to Biden is faithless electors.  But there hasn't been any legit concern about that - yet.  I'm assuming it'll ratchet up a bit in December.

1,664

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Slider_Quinn21 wrote:

Okay, reading all that made me feel better.

I also looked up Informant's twitter.  That made me feel worse.

********

So now the only real threat to Biden is faithless electors.  But there hasn't been any legit concern about that - yet.  I'm assuming it'll ratchet up a bit in December.

Also the Supreme Court unanimously ruled that faithless electors are illegal this summer in Chiafalo vs Washington

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Rob, you don't need to read Informant's Twitter. I don't need to read Informant's Twitter. I kept reading it because I care about him. I rant about him because I am hurt by him. But the only way anyone can hurt me with typing is because I have given them permission to hurt me.

I would never have expected him to become what he has; I'd expect him to be more concerned with being a loyal American than being a loyal conservative. But I am going to stop reading his social media. And I am going to stop talking about him as well. The election is over. And the pointless lawsuits from Trump are a waste of time and only to draw funds to pay off his campaign debts. I am still angry at anyone who voted for Trump, effectively voting to not have voting anymore. But I agree with Joe Biden that it is time to set that aside and focus on rebuilding our extremely broken world.

Nothing Informant says on Twitter takes away from all the wonderful things he did for SLIDERS and fans of SLIDERS. No vote Informant casts changes the fact that he was our friend: he worked on the SLIDERS REDUX with us, he gifted us with his companionship and perspective and friendship during FRINGE and the X-FILES revival and the Arrowverse and the DC Extended Universe. He stuck with SLIDERS long after most people had sensibly found another show and fandom. Fandom brought out the very best parts of Informant: his most generous, his most open-hearted and we were very fortunate to have the time we did with him.

I often think that writing fiction and caring about fiction will reveal who we really are; the unfortunate fact is that some writers will produce material that reveals a great compassion and love for humanity, but ultimately choose to live life as their most caustic, abrasive, antagonistic selves when they could be better than that.

I don't pray much, but when COVID hit the states, I knew before even reading Informant's Twitter that he would not wear a mask and I prayed for him and begged God to spare Informant when Informant wouldn't spare himself. I will pray for him again. Not for who he is now, but who he was when we knew him, who he chose to be for the bulk of his time with us. And I will pray that he finds his way back to that. The election is over, Donald Trump is done, I will never speak poorly of the absent Informant again after this post. Informant was our friend, he will always be our friend.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

ireactions wrote:

Are Americans... evil?

i've stopped believing on the inherent goodness in people.  it's not inevitable.  culture is fragile.  groups of people can go down bad paths.  ultimately, at a certain point, after a certain period of time, everybody is responsible for what they go along with.

we can have stark policy differences but there has to be a baseline set of core values that we adhere to. 

it's OK to be disappointed.  most of us are.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

If we don't believe in inherent goodness, then we also don't need to believe in inherent evil. The truth is that people have the capacity for both and most will choose themselves. Sometimes, they will do so in a nearsighted, short-term sense that benefits them in immediacy but is catastrophic longterm. Sometimes, they will choose themselves by seeing that what benefits everyone is in their favour as well.

**

I sense that Slider_Quinn21 is frightened and afraid that Trump will sue his way into a second term. He cannot. Even if he overturned a state or two, it wouldn't get him to 270 votes. Even if he got currently uncounted mall-in ballots tossed, he wouldn't get more electoral votes than Biden. Republican run state legislatures have decided that they don't believe in alternate electors against the results of an election. The Department of Justice's call to investigate voter fraud specifies that the fraud must be significant enough to have actually altered results, and none of Trump's accusations in court would qualify. They're all small, petty, nuisance lawsuits and small, petty paperwork to briefly placate a small, petty man.

There is a danger that Biden will be treated by a not-small portion of the electorate as illegitimate because their cult leader said so. There is a danger that future elections will be contested in court by a more competent authoritarian who can tell the difference between a hotel and a landscaping company. But Trump has lost and clearly cannot process it and Republicans, not wanting to alienate Trump's voters, are humouring him even when these efforts will change nothing. Joe Biden is president-elect. No amount of whining, recounting and legal wrangling will change it.

I'd worry about Georgia runoffs. I'd worry about Biden being unable to pass any worthwhile legislation if Mitch McConnell holds the Senate. I'd worry about anti-vaxxers. I'd worry about Trumpism. I'd worry about how Trump will use his last days, although if he's distracted by pointless lawsuits, all the better. But Trump is done. And if he wants to run in 2024, he may have to do it from a jail cell as he is soon to lose his immunity to prosecution for financial crimes, tax fraud, assault; he is most definitely facing another bankruptcy; and there may be a case to charge him with negligent homicide.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

The only question pending that could have some teeth are concerns about the Dominion Voting System.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/rumor … ud-claims/

As shown at the link, the allegations don’t have traction yet, but that could change giving us a “Man of the Year” situation.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man_of_ … 2006_film)

Nothing is impossible, but I do think overturning the election is very improbable.

1,669

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Trump is outta here in January, trust me.  The bigger issue is that he's moved to railroad the transition to Biden, plus having agencies waste their time with Trump-backed budget plans they'll never use.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

ireactions wrote:

I sense that Slider_Quinn21 is frightened and afraid that Trump will sue his way into a second term.

Oh, not at all.  I'm no legal expert, but I've read more than enough people who are say that the lawsuits are a waste of time.  It's placating Trump, it's following orders, and at the end of the day, it will mean nothing.  I'd still like to have an active tracker of which lawsuits are ongoing and which have been denied.  Just for my own amusement.

What I am concerned about is what in the hell the Republicans are doing.  When Mike Pompeo says that there will be a transition to a second Trump administration, I really don't care.  He's a Trump employee, and if Trump doesn't win, he loses his job and all the perks that come with it.  He's hoping for a second Trump term because it benefits him.

What confuses me is why other Republicans are going through with all this.  I can kinda see how McConnell is doing it - he's the face of the Republican Party besides Trump, and if he doesn't toe the line, he's going to spend his whole day fielding angry calls from Trump.  So even if professionally he knows he needs to say the right thing, I can forgive him if he's just trying to make sure he can still get through the day.

But why are other Republicans going along with this?  Why is my asshole senator, Ted Cruz, *STILL* working for the guy who called his wife ugly and said his dad was part of the Kennedy assassination?  Why is Lindsey Graham allowing talk of voter fraud when he won an election *this year*?  Is this what they're going to be doing for the next four years?  Because when you hear the rationales, some of them make sense:

- Keep Trump happy until he's officially gone
- Keep the focus on the election so that republicans can stay focused on the Georgia runoff so they can keep the house
- Fundraising

Which all make sense - but they don't have to say anything, and all those things still happen.  Trump can still fundraise, at least one of the Republicans is almost guaranteed to win, and none of them need Trump in the next 70 days.

Either way, when it's over, we need everyone not named Trump to come out and say "we did a full audit - the election was done correctly - our democracy is secure" - that's the only way we move forward.  But that means Graham and Cruz are going to have to walk back their statements.  And the fact that they made the statements at all means a) they believe this crap or b) they knew it was wrong and said it anyway.  And both of those are terrible and dangerous.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

The Hail Mary:

https://www.axios.com/trump-electoral-c … e5149.html

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Yeah and if the Hail Mary happens, elections are essentially over.

1,673

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Blocking certification would require court orders.  The courts have so far unanimously batted away all lawsuits the Trump camp have filed.  70-80% of Americans, by poll, agree that Biden is the next President.  Once again, it's Trump first, he's just trying to keep his fandom revved up and prove he's no loser (though he is a BIG one).

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

I'm glad Slider_Quinn21 isn't worried about Trump flipping the results of the election because that frees ME up to worry.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Last night, I stumbled on this guy's feed:

https://twitter.com/greg_doucette?ref_s … r%5Eauthor

He was talking about how the Hail Mary hits a roadblock - even if Trump gets the results delayed, the matter goes to Congress, and the way they do it is the key.  They do it separately - so if Trump tries the Hail Mary, the Senate and House retreat to their separate chambers and come up with a solution.  And while the Republicans would move quickly in the Senate, there's literally nothing they can do about the House.  They could simply play bridge in the chamber for a month and then when 1/20 hits, Trump's term ends whether they have a solution or not. 

And this is where it got sorta interesting to me.  Everyone mentions this is where Pelosi becomes president, but they wouldn't have to vote Pelosi in as Speaker of the House.  Apparently you don't even have to *be* in the House to be Speaker of the House.  So if the Democrats are worried about this, they would just vote in Biden as Speaker, and if the Republicans try it, he becomes acting president when January 20th happens.  There'd be no difference between Biden as president or acting president, and then they could either stalemate it or the Republicans would just give in.

I have no idea if any of that is true, but his arguments were smarter than anything I could come up with.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

I think the more Trump focuses on his pointless lawsuits, the less time he has for governing and screwing up America.

That said, he is also laying the groundwork for a future authoritarian dictator to use the same playbook to steal an election but with more competence than Trump possesses.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

ireactions wrote:

I think the more Trump focuses on his pointless lawsuits, the less time he has for governing and screwing up America.

Well that's the thing.  Other than the attention and inability to be prosecuted, what is Trump wanting out of the job?  It's been a week and he's done *nothing*.  I don't remember who I'm quoting, but he seems to be doing everything he can to keep a job he doesn't even want.

That said, he is also laying the groundwork for a future authoritarian dictator to use the same playbook to steal an election but with more competence than Trump possesses.

This is my real fear.  I guess the good news is that such a person isn't really on the horizon.  If Trump is truly talking about 2024, then I think he's almost certainly the nominee.  No Republican has stood up to him yet, and I don't think anyone will between now and then.  If Trump runs again in 2024, then I think he'll do everything he can between now and 2028 to set up Don Jr. and Ivanka to run in 2028. 

None of Trump's kids are capable of anything like their father so I'd think we're at least 2032 before there's anyone who can follow in Trump's footsteps.  Hopefully 12 years down the line, we'll have the US in a more secure place.

1,678

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

The lawsuits are just another way for him to fleece his supporters.  All the money donated to the "recount fund" goes to either retiring Trump's campaign debt or to his "leadership" PAC (which is legally prohibited from funding recounts or challenges to the vote tally).  That's why he and his people always urge people to donate when they're talking about legal challenges.  All that money goes right into his pocket.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Yeah they say 60% of it goes to pay off campaign debt, but from what I read, anything under $8000 they can do whatever they want with.

I'm wondering if they have to legally pay the money back if they don't do the recount in Wisconsin.  It feels weird for Trump to pay $3.5 million to do a pointless recount if he can just pocket it.  I wonder if he'll concede right around then and just walk away with all that money.

In other news, Trump is hinting that he may not even come to these Stop the Steal rallies.  If he won't even come to a lovefest rally, we know he's in terrible shape emotionally.

1,680

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

The lawsuits are done, more or less, and lawyers have been quitting on him.  There is not likely to even be many recounts.  His final avenue is this ridiculous idea that state legislatures will circumvent the popular vote, not happening.  Supposedly he will finally "concede" while simultaneously announce he's running again in 2024.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

His niece, Mary Trump, a clinical psychologist who psychoanalyzed him in her book TOO MUCH AND NEVER ENOUGH, says that he's so terrified of losing (again) that he wouldn't run in 2024. Plus, I'm sure he'll be in jail or hiding in a non-extradition country by then.

I sure hope no self-published authors who work as extras in Austin, Texas sell their homes and all worldly possessions to pay Trump's campaign bills! Haha!

**

In other news, the Supreme Court looks likely to spare Obamacare and John Roberts is god-damn sick of hearing about it and people trying to force him to kill something that just cannot be killed and which is not his job to kill.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/10/politics … index.html

Brett Kavanaugh also seems eager to move on with his life and accept that Obamacare is in it.

https://news.yahoo.com/brett-kavanaugh- … 05716.html

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

This is truly remarkable.  From 1990:

https://www.heavymetal.com/news/preside … tal-story/

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

My God, not only does this nightmare seem to never end, it keeps starting sooner than we ever noticed.

An essay on how Trump voters feel ignored by Democrats. Pretty much what TF said but much more long-winded.
https://www.salon.com/2020/11/15/unders … -it-right/

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Like pre-election, I'm now varying between wildly contradicting feelings.  On one hand, Trump's legal efforts are his only shot.  If he can get enough doubt, they can either get to the Supreme Court or get results un-certified.  Both are still fairly bad options unless the Supreme Court goes super-politicized (I think the Pennsylvania case could go 8-1 with ACB being the only Trump vote with the incredible lack of evidence they're presenting).

But I still fear hijinks.  And I'm not entirely sure why the Supreme Court would even entertain such a case.  And I don't like that Michigan is entertaining any of this.  And I don't like that Georgia is so politicized.

I get super-confident...then I dig a little deeper into the crazy, and I get nervous.  I need to just stop paying attention.  Soon enough, it'll be over and Biden will be president.

1,685

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Alito would vote however the RNC tells him to.  He's a political hack.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

I think there's a chance that Thomas would too.  Roberts would almost certainly vote against.  So they'd just need one of Gorsuch or Kavanaugh to take their jobs seriously, and I think they'd have to put up with a ton of scrutiny to do so.  I even think ACB could fold under that kind of pressure and vote against.

Best case scenario in my mind is for them to refuse to take the case.  I know they can, and I doubt they will.  But that's the best case scenario to put this whole thing to bed.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

The Trump legal strategy is too haphazard; there’s no chance the challenges they’re using will work.  Trump had an argument, but they’ve squandered their time and focused on areas that weren’t the best arguments.  Poll watching isn’t a game changer; but last minute rule changes on mail in ballots without legislative approval could be argued as a constitutional violation and would be Supreme Court candy.  Get the mail in ballots thrown out and Trump wins.

The Trump team isn’t really arguing the constitution; it’s taking a private attorney who went out on his own to argue it in Georgia.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Michigan's results are certified.

Do Americans really want to go through this every time they have an election? Where after the results are in, they have to argue whether or not the results are to be accepted because the losing party doesn't like losing?

1,689 (edited by Grizzlor 2020-11-23 21:34:40)

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

It's over.  Transition finally agreed to by GSA.  Rush Limbaugh, Laura Ingraham have basically admitted Biden is next.

TF the mail ballot extensions have been done for years, similar to when they hold polls open for people still in line.  There's never been a challenge to those maneuvers that went anywhere, and there likely won't ever be.  I truly don't think the Supreme's would go for tossing hundreds of thousands perhaps millions of ballots.  Maybe Thomas/Alito but not the others. 

Furthermore, the Trump claim was all about fraud.  So yes if it could be proven, the GOP and judges may have gone for that.  There's no evidence of that, which is why they can't charge fraud in court.  Tossing ballots simply because they arrived via mail, no shot.  GOP/judges would never go for that, in fact many expressed that it would be disenfranchisement.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Nothing is over until McConnell says it is.  And he still must think there's something to be gained in Georgia by backing Trump.

Funny thing is that a lot of Trump people on Parler are talking about skipping the runoff entirely or writing Trump's name is.  It probably won't be a lot of people, but if it's enough for one or both of the Democrats to win, that would be the funniest story of the decade.

1,691

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

The Georgia races only matter if you believe Biden won.  Otherwise the GOP holds the senate regardless of the outcomes.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

I know this will be instantly soured because of the site, but an interesting approach:

https://www.breitbart.com/clips/2020/11 … ipulation/

Basically the Civil War in court.

But this is the type of argument Trump’s team should have been arguing.  It’s simple.  It’s clean.  Either the states changed the rules on mail-ins or they didn’t.  Either the legislatures were involved or they weren’t.  Either the constitution was violated or it wasn’t.  No trust of witnesses needed.  It’s in black and white for the Supreme Court to call a ball or a strike.

I do believe it’s important to clear up.  If a Secretary of State or lower court is going to have the power to change rules (like signature verifications) unilaterally, then that can later swing against Democrats as easily as it swung in their favor.  It’s all in the whims of one person, and that’s not the system of government we’ve had.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

TemporalFlux wrote:

I do believe it’s important to clear up.  If a Secretary of State or lower court is going to have the power to change rules (like signature verifications) unilaterally, then that can later swing against Democrats as easily as it swung in their favor.  It’s all in the whims of one person, and that’s not the system of government we’ve had.

I agree with this.  The problem is that it's not just a matter of the law.  It's a matter of much more than the law.  And while Supreme Court robots might be able to see it black and white, I think there's so much riding on it that no one really wants to get involved.  If you look at the major players, they're silent.  Pence, Pelosi, McConnell, even Harris and Biden.  The crusaders are outsiders or medium-level people like Ted Cruz.

So while I believe ACB is not going to take her job seriously, is she really going to want to mark her entire career on a decision that disenfranchises millions?  Even if she believes it's the right thing to do, can she be the tiebreaking vote in a situation like that?  Could Kavanaugh?  Could any of the Republicans?  Not only would they have to face Roberts, they'd face that scrutiny for the rest of their lives.

The problem, at least to me, is timing.  I know Republicans sued pre-election regarding the extensions, and Democrats and Pennsylvania voters were given time to adjust.  The votes happened.  I think at that point, it becomes more than the law.  I don't think it's fair to give someone a ticket for speeding, even if the law has officially been changed, before there was a chance to update the speed limit sign.  Maybe it is fair.  I just wouldn't think that would be fair.

It's like the drive-thru law in Texas.  Did they illegally change the law?  I don't know.  But people came and voted.  If they didn't know they were voting illegally, I don't see why *they* should be punished.  My argument then, if the votes were thrown out, was that anyone who voted and had their vote thrown out should be able to vote again legally.  That would be my same argument if mail in ballots were thrown out.  Give them a reasonable amount of time (a week?) to go in person and vote legally.  Because if they were told that it was legal and it was legal at the time per state law, then they didn't know they were breaking the law.

So since I don't think the Supreme Court would say "okay, let them vote again", I think their only option is to either punt the case or rule against it.  Maybe in their decision they say "if this had been pre-election, maybe you would've won but we can't overturn the election on a technicality - fix this" and then the states can fix it.

I agree that elections probably need help.  The problem is that both sides want different things.  Like it or not, Republicans want less people to vote.  Democrats want more people to vote.  And that ends up meaning that Democrats are okay with some illegal votes getting through, and Republicans are okay disenfranchising people.  Until both sides decide to work together, I think elections will remain a huge problem.

I wonder what would happen if Biden made his term about cleaning up elections.  Would Trump people feel better about democracy or worse?

1,694

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

They already ran cases to the Supreme Court pertaining to mail in ballots, as well as changes including extensions.  The Court ruled that the onus was on the state legislatures and courts, not the Federal courts.  They were pretty consistent on that.  It's why Trump's team didn't bother challenging them any further, because they would have lost.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Why were people concerned about the future of Roe v Wade?  It’s been law for nearly 50 years.  Challenged over and over.  Always stood.  Yet for the past two Supreme Court nominations we’ve had people wailing in the streets (and in one case climbing the statues of the Supreme Court building) because those Trump nominations could destroy Roe v Wade.

Things can change.  Things have changed.  You need look no further than a ruling made just yesterday:

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/11/2 … ett-440808

In May and July, the Supreme Court ruled in favor of the government restricting church attendance.  It would have been the same result yesterday but for Amy Coney Barrett.  That one change flipped it in favor of the church.

Whatever you think is in stone is not.  Especially not now.  All those people protesting in the streets knew what could happen.

The situation is that no matter how the Court rules on the election, half of the country will feel disenfranchised.  The Supreme Court can go either way, and half the country will be behind them on it.  And to see how attitudes of the Justice’s could play out, you need only look at Scalia’s comments about Bush v Gore:

https://www.abajournal.com/news/article … et_over_it

“Oh, get over it.”

Barrett is of the Scalia cloth.

All that said, the Trump team hasn’t been making the right arguments.  The states are not yet showing an indication of going out on their own.  And then there’s Brett Kavanaugh.  For how much he was hated and attacked, he could turn out to be the Democrats’ best friend on this one.  Like John Roberts, Kavanaugh is Bush’s boy.  He is unlikely to do anything to help Trump just because he’s Trump.  Remember how Trump shredded the Bush legacy in the 2016 campaign.

As for me, I like puzzles.  I like seeing how reality could believably shift.  Do I believe Trump won?  I believe he could have lost; there were potentially enough split ticket Republicans to sink him.  What I’m having trouble with is that the universe of votes changed by 23 million between 2016 and 2020.  Who are these 23 million people that didn’t vote in the last election?  That is an incredible amount of people to appear from thin air; and I’m not so quick to just cheer it as a record breaking accomplishment in civic engagement.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

I've seen the "how did Biden get 80 million votes" question a ton from conservatives.  But the 74 million Trump got are never questioned.  Are we saying that Trump, in the middle of a pandemic that he's done almost nothing to help and during a time where he's done nothing to help get a second stimulus bill passed *convinced* an additional 12+ million voters to vote for him?  He's done almost nothing - were 12 million people convinced by Space Force?

If Biden's 80 million votes are in question, so are Trump's 74 million.  As we've discussed, Trump usually accuses people of doing what he's already done.  I'd be willing to bet that Trump and the Republicans engaged in plenty of election shenanigans.  Seeing what Lindsey Graham tried in Georgia tells me that he tried the same stuff in South Carolina.  Did he succeed there?

I've seen polls that half Trump's voters don't believe Biden won.  I've seen polls where about a quarter of Trump voters believe it was legit.  Either way, it's not half the country.  We're talking 35-60 million people.  Which is significant but not overwhelming.  I'm interested in seeing what the Republicans do after Georgia.  It doesn't help McConnell for people not to believe in elections.  I would assume once they've gotten everything they can get out of the Trump people, the GOP will drop the fraud business.  They aren't really helping with it in the first place, and I think they'll let Trump embarrass himself in court and then they can distance.

I still don't understand why people like Ted Cruz are helping.  Doesn't Cruz want to run in 2024?  If he's content with being where he is, I guess it makes sense.  But he's actively helping his competition which is bizarre to me.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

That’s why I said a universe of 23 million extra votes; I was combining all votes that appeared since 2016 for both Trump and Biden.  It seems we agree that something doesn’t quite wash with that size of an increase.  Notice I say “seems” - I could be wrong.

But who are these 23 million?  Did they suddenly care how much Trump actually affected their lives?  Were they that energized by Biden?  I’ve seen Jay Walking segments and the like - significant numbers can’t even pick out the President if you show them a photo.  And they’re also the people who throw mail-in ballots in the trash because they think it’s just another piece of campaign junk mail.

It’s a puzzle; and how to solve it is a puzzle.

As for Cruz, he’s one of many trying to inherit Trump voters is all.  No one will be able to do that, though.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Turnout was estimated to be high due to a highly partisan election year and few undecided voters. 23 million shouldn't be a surprise.

https://www.vox.com/2020/11/4/21549010/ … ction-2020

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

What happened here?

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/En17g4rVoAEF9Lc?format=jpg&name=small

Looks like they moved in the kids’ table from Thanksgiving

1,700

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

It's a bill signing desk, normally used when they need extra space for guests

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/En1Q99DW4AASV6z.jpg