Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

ireactions wrote:

Every superhero TV news outlet is reporting that a new character will become Batwoman, basing this on a leaked casting notice for a "Ryan Wilder" who will take over from Kate Kane who will not be recast. … ruby-rose/

I'm astonished. And I'm also confused as to the sourcing because the source for this is a Reddit posting (now deleted) with this casting notice -- and casting notices are notoriously deceptive, always altering the details to avoid leakage. However, this casting notice is being taken as correct and accurate in declaring that this Ryan Wilder character will replace Ruby Rose's Kate Kane as Batwoman. There is no other source for this information other than the deleted Reddit post. There is no statement from the studio or creative team. There is only the Reddit posting of a casting notice for a new character who will be the new Batwoman.

Yet, The Hollywood Reporter and Entertainment Weekly seem to think this is accurate, so maybe they know something I don't?

I've been scanning Twitter and Reddit and various BATWOMAN fan sites to gauge fan reaction to the idea that Season 2 will have a new character become Batwoman with no further appearances from Kate Kane who will simply be gone from the show.

The reactions are uniformly negative except from those who didn't like BATWOMAN in the first place. The fans are very upset. They weathered losing Ruby Rose, but losing the comfort that Kate Kane would continue without Rose seems to have been a breaking point. I've never seen a fanbase so united on anything except on the Sci-Fi forum when "Requiem" first aired.

When you fall in a hole, the most important thing to do is stop digging. BATWOMAN fell into a hole when Ruby Rose left. This story suggests the show is digging itself deeper -- but given that Arrowverse creators are generally not seeking to alienate their viewers and sabotage their properties and have made no official comment on this news, I have to think that we're not getting the full story here.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max) … runner-cw/

Well, we have an official statement now. Kate Kane won't be in Season 2 with a new performer. It's going to be a new character as BATWOMAN.

*sigh* I hate to dismiss any show without giving it a chance, but after SLIDERS, I'm simply not receptive to shows aborting their unfinished arcs in this fashion and I'm not in favour of a Batwoman who isn't Kate Kane. I don't know if I'll feel this way when BATWOMAN is back on the air, but right now, I'm not inclined to watch the second season.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

What a weird call.

I wonder if the thought is that Ruby Rose doesn't want to do a full season of a show but that she'd be open to come back in one form or another (crossovers?).  If you recast Kate, you can't have Ruby come back.  So maybe Kate gets a message from Bruce and leaves mysteriously.  And this Ryan Wilder shows up as a protege of Bruce's to fill in for Kate while she has to leave.  Maybe it's a Batman, Inc. situation where Bruce is leaving to set up different Batman "franchises" in other places, and she needs Kate to help with that.  Then Kate can come back next time the world's in trouble?

That's gotta be the reason.  Recasting worked twice in the MCU - I don't see why the Arrowverse would see itself as above such a thing.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

The impression I got is that if Ruby Rose shows up on the BATWOMAN set again, it's with a flamethrower and a tank of gas. It was an acrimonious departure.

My feeling is that the creators have panicked and overreacted to losing their lead actress. In trying to fill the hole left in their series, they are now burying the park entirely and they have severely misread their audience, thinking that people would consider any new performer as Kate a Ruby Rose impersonator. But in this case, it looks like the fans would accept a Kate Kane who isn't Ruby Rose, but they won't accept a Batwoman who isn't Kate Kane -- much in the same way fans would likely reject a Superman who wasn't Clark Kent or a Batman who wasn't Bruce Wayne after a mere 20 episodes of leading their own show. Fans will accept a new person as (Green) Arrow after eight years of Oliver Queen, but not before that. There has been decades of R&D in comic books to

I don't consider the creators malicious; few modern day showrunners have a David Peckinpah level of contempt for their own properties, but I think they've made a mistake.

They could change their minds; they are months and months and months from starting production on Season 2. Sonic the Hedgehog was redesigned (or un-redesigned) due to fan outcry; the Snyder Cut is being released and like BATWOMAN, these projects depend on a certain level of goodwill from a devoted audience to function. BATWOMAN is currently being flattened under a ceiling of negativity from its devotees that that any show would struggle to overcome; I can't imagine a general audience being keen on BATWOMAN when even the diehards are so adamantly and uniformly against its new direction.

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I think the main problem is that the show is set up in a way where Kate has an emotional connection to everyone on the show.  She's Beth's sister.  Commander Kane's daughter.  Mary's step-sister.  Sophie's ex.  Luke's partner.  And that's the whole main cast.

A new character could certainly work with all these people, but you can't replicate those relationships.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I think the fact that a new character would have no connection with Alice, Jacob, Mary, Sophie, Julia and Luke is precisely why it makes absolutely no sense to remove Kate Kane from the series. It can't work.

The other problem is that the Season 1 cliffhanger left us with Jacob hunting Batwoman, 'Bruce' about to approach Kate, Sophie and Julia pairing up, Parker in the cave and looking to Kate for leadership, Luke at a degree of odds with Kate -- and if next season, Kate is just gone, there is no way the show can possibly pay off any of these arcs. Season 1 will be a pointless build to nothing. Not only are the fans of Season 1 unenthused about Season 2, they won't even want to rewatch Season 1.

I think this is a mistake and I don't doubt that Ruby Rose's sudden departure was a shock given that she was in the original Season 2 press release announcing the storylines for next year, but this is an extreme and destructive solution that will alienate existing viewers and likely repel new ones. It is a convoluted, fragmented path that will damage both the past and future of the show.

It really speaks to how what happened to SLIDERS with the cast attrition is possible with any series. Shows like ARROW, FLASH, SUPERGIRL, BROOKLYN NINE NINE, PARKS AND RECREATION and others are very fortunate to have been able to keep most of their cast together for so many years. The vetting process on those shows to choose performers who would stay seems largely successful.

Stephen Amell, Grant Gustin, Melissa Benoist, Caity Lotz, Andy Samberg and Amy Poehler were/are in it for the long haul. But that system seems to have failed with Ruby Rose and now the show and its creators are badly rattled.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

ireactions wrote:

The other problem is that the Season 1 cliffhanger left us with Jacob hunting Batwoman, 'Bruce' about to approach Kate, Sophie and Julia pairing up, Parker in the cave and looking to Kate for leadership, Luke at a degree of odds with Kate -- and if next season, Kate is just gone, there is no way the show can possibly pay off any of these arcs. Season 1 will be a pointless build to nothing. Not only are the fans of Season 1 unenthused about Season 2, they won't even want to rewatch Season 1.

Well, I think anything could work.  If I were a Batwoman writer in charge of writing a Season 2 premiere with the parameters that a) I can't do a full reboot b) I need to keep the existing main cast and characters and c) I need to introduce a new Batwoman, I'd pick up several months later.

I'd have Bruce return and immediately cut Luke out.  Lock out the Batcave and re-assign him somewhere else in Wayne Enterprises.  He tells Luke not to worry and that he has a plan.  Luke trusts him.  Bruce also sends Kate and Julia on a mission far away, and the team hasn't heard from them sense.

With no Batcave to work out of and Luke tied up, Mary and Parker have taken over control of Team Batwoman, but with no vigilante to work with, it's just a lot of recon and staking out and setting up a temporary new batcave.  Alice has been trying to get Kryptonite and hasn't been able to.  She finds out that Kate has some, but Bruce hasn't been able to find it.  And to make matters worse, Bruce hasn't heard from Kate and doesn't know where she is.  So to draw them out, Alice kidnaps Sophie and Kane and tells them Kate's secret.

Julia re-appears.  She says Kate has a plan and that they need to be ready to storm the building that Alice is keeping Kane and Sophie.  Julia leads the charge, and takes out a few bad guys.  Once she's cornered, Batwoman shows up.  She handles the rest and faces off against Alice.  But Alice knows something is wrong and runs off.

Batwoman grapples out before dealing with Sophie and Kane.  Julia unties them and they ask why she left.  They know she's Kate.  The ruse is over.  "That wasn't Kate," she says.

New Batcave.  Luke, Julia, Parker, and Mary are there.  Batwoman drops in.  "Kate where have you been?" and the such.

Batwoman takes off her helmet.  "Hi, I'm Ryan.  Bruce sent me"

Essentially, I'd have it be that "Bruce" sent Kate and Julia off on an assignment to allow him to thoroughly search the Batcave.  When things are fishy, Julia reached out to Alfred somehow and got a message that it wasn't Bruce.  Bruce gets Kate to come find him, and he sends Ryan (his protege) in her place to defend Gotham.

I'd have Luke, Parker, and Mary working together for a long-enough time that they have history.  I'd have Kate's secret exposed so Sophie and Kane can just be police foils (and maybe eventually written off like Lance).  Julia can be familiar with Ryan, at least a little bit.

So you'd have a new Batwoman on an established team that at least has experience working together minus Kate, a new Batwoman with different connections to Bruce, and Bruce/Alice no longer have knowledge of all the pieces on the board.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Hartley Sawyer (Ralph Dibney on FLASH) has been fired from THE FLASH due to racist and misogynistic social media posts. … ic-tweets/


Regarding your BATWOMAN pitch: It's not that I dislike your writing or your ideas. I am simply disengaged from any season of BATWOMAN that doesn't feature Kate Kane as Batwoman and I have no enthusiasm for a follow-up on Season 1 that doesn't have Kate Kane confronting Alice, confronting her father and confronting Hush. It's just depressing for me. I just don't need this kind of grief from a TV show. I don't want to engage with a story that can ultimately only be resolved if Sabrina Lloyd / Jerry O'Connell / Ruby Rose returns to the series.

They've decided not to recast Kate Kane and move on from the character, so I'm going to move on from BATWOMAN and find another TV show to love and obsess over. I've made some contributions to the #KateKaneIsBatwoman effort on Twitter to offer a template for how fans could politely make their case to the creators without namecalling and attacks. And now, I need to just step back now lest this become another SLIDERS-level fixation for me. Unless you want to know what I think of something BATWOMAN related (yes, you, only you), I'm not going to even allow myself to think about BATWOMAN anymore unless they issue a press release in the next few months saying that, after some consideration, they feel Kate Kane is too central to the fans and show to remove and they've elected to recast Ashley Platz / Wallis Day / Brianna Hildebrand / whoever. I am just going to block it and forget about it.

I never want any show to fail and I hope it does great because if BATWOMAN succeeds, then SUPERGIRL and SUPERMAN AND LOIS and THE FLASH and LEGENDS and GREEN ARROW AND THE CANARIES (pending existence) also succeed along with every other superhero production out there. I love superheroes. But I'm not going to make myself watch anything that upsets me to this degree outside of 13 REASONS WHY and that's finally over.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

That's upsetting and disappointing about Hartley Sawyer.  I think he's a fun actor who thrived in the Arrowverse with a character that doesn't have much going for it.  I understand why they did what they did, with the Arrowverse working very hard to be inclusive.

That being said, the article lists tweets that go up to 2014.  I know he deactivated his twitter so it doesn't mean he's changed in six years, but what are the terms we're using to cancel people?  How do we decide who gets a second chance (like James Gunn) and who doesn't?  I'm assuming that this isn't politically based (no idea if he's a Republican), but it's hard to say if Sawyer is getting the Dean Cain treatment.

It does sound like he's sorry.  And I'll never understand why it was okay to hire him after these tweets happened and it's not okay now.  I assumed he made a tweet in the last couple of weeks, but to see that it was six years ago before he even joined the Flash is a tad troubling.  If he learned from it and has been good around his female and black costars, I'd think he'd have been treated differently.  But that's not my call.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I think Sawyer deleted his account before he was up for his now former job or he was hired during the period when noted sexual harasser Andrew Kreisberg was still running the show and noted sexual harasser Andrew Kreisberg was fine with ignoring Sawyer's remarks. After the massive scandal surrounding noted sexual harasser Andrew Kreisberg, the Arrowverse productions are probably in no position to have any kind of tolerance for this and have no desire to deal with this sort of public relations struggle. They don't want the optics, they don't want the trouble, they don't want to go through another round of Kreisberg antics -- they just don't want to be associated with this sort of behaviour whether years ago or days ago. They wouldn't survive it.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Yeah this one is probably out of anyone's hands.  The Kreisberg explanation makes sense.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I don't really *know* anything about Hartley Sawyer. Why would someone think it's alright to make homophobic slurs? I can't imagine myself doing that. But as a former sexual harasser of women in college who stalked three classmates and pestered one barmaid, all when I was in university, I have to believe Sawyer's apology is genuine because otherwise, I wouldn't be able to believe in my own capacity for change.

At the same time, it's foolish and always has been to think that social media is not a platform where everything we say will not come back to haunt us, so we should never say things we wouldn't be proud to say an hour later or a year later. We should ask ourselves how it would impact us. Or how a woman or a person of colour or a member of the LGBTQ community or a prospective employer would feel if they found our words. Or if they were reproduced all over Twitter.

I don't anticipate ever being a celebrity, but if I ever became one and you investigated me, you would find creepy messages from me to women that I wrote back when I was in university. You would also find messages to them from a few years ago where I tell them that I am very sorry for stalking and harassing them and that I've befriended a lot of women and been in a lot of psychotherapy and realized how threatening and intrusive and hurtful my behaviour must have been and that I'm very sorry and ashamed. Anyone in the public eye, for their own job security, should look at everything they've put in public and if it is reprehensible, they should out themselves before someone else does it and apologize for it.

In 2013, comic book writer and artist MariNaomi blogged about how she was on a panel at a convention and a writer next to her started flirting with her inappropriately in front of an audience, making oral sex jokes about her microphone, asking her if she orgasmed when eating a mango, etc.. She didn't name him. Not even 24 hours later, prolific comic book writer Scott Lobdell made a statement to the comics press and identified himself as the harasser and apologized. It wasn't a great apology; he apologized for his humour not being understood and directed far too much of his apology to MariNaomi's husband. But he stood for his misdeed and his career survived it because he came forward himself.

Hartley Sawyer probably does not hate women or black people or gay people -- he likely just saw those areas as a place to say shocking, ridiculous things in a similar spirit that a SLIDERS fanfic writer might declare that Maggie Beckett is a wonderfully versatile character or declare that his next SLIDERS story will feature the rock star vampires, the animal human hybrids, the fat craving zombies, the underground predators, the dinosaurs, the dragon, the killer robots and the remote controlled cars that shoot lasers -- a form of humour that is based in absurd overstatement so exaggerated that it is meant to amuse.

The problem is that the subject matter Sawyer chose is treating certain segments of our society as less than human, a real world mentality that harms and even kills people every day. His jokes, however insincerely intended, were threatening and hurtful to the women, people of colour and homosexuals who might watch THE FLASH and THE FLASH desperately does not want any more accusations that could alienate their audience.

What could Sawyer do at this point? Well, his job is definitely gone. He could focus on... he seems to have a love for animal shelters, maybe he could get into that field. But his career might be over. As an actor, you have to be a chameleon; your public persona needs to be positive but also not interfere with disappearing into whatever roles you'd want to perform. Sawyer could teach acting classes. Sawyer could be an acting coach. Sawyer could do PR behind the scenes for actors and let them learn from his social media mistakes and guide them in the opposite direction.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

A shame about Sawyer.  I think that my concern with this “cancel” is that he’s been on the show three years now, I think?  If he were behaving badly on set or in person, I would hope it would have come to light before now (especially after Kreisberg), so it’s sad to me to see another career ruined and show damaged due to written acts on Twitter.

Thinking back on James Gunn, I think that the standard I would settle on is this - How do people behave face to face?  Typing things on the internet can often lead to statements that do not have the consideration they would have in public before being spoken.  I mean, what’s important?  Is it how we actually treat each other face to face?

As the time tested phrase goes, talk is cheap; and Twitter / social media has really become a bad thing for a lot of people.  Too many things are either written without thought or misinterpreted; and it ruins lives of otherwise decent people when face to face.  I just don’t think that civility requires everyone to think exactly the same; and some people need help gained through conversation they’ll never have if they’re just cancelled.  It was actually ireactions words regarding James Gunn on this forum that led me to see the situation differently.   If he had just cancelled me, my mind would have likely never changed.

This Sawyer situation also reminds me of something I watched on CNN Saturday morning; I was curious and stopped on the Sesame Street Racism special.  Children were given the chance to ask questions of experts; and the one I saw was a 6 year old boy with a question I doubt he formulated on his own.  The boy stated, “I want to be a neurosurgeon when I grow up.  Will I be able to operate on racist brains and change them?”  News anchor Erica Hill responds as everyone smiles and laughs; she says “Oh, I wish I could tell you yes.”

Am I the only one who finds this horrifying?  We’re talking now about lobotomizing people who are deemed racist, and that action is not condemned.  This is “California Reich” stuff closer to reality than I would ever want it to be; but that’s one path cancel culture can lead to.  How long before we cancel people’s brains?  They’re really talking about this now on a kid’s show.  No joke.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I wish they could have kept Sawyer on the show. Had him come out and apologize, say that he'd changed, that he would atone, that his work on THE FLASH had made him realize the person who'd made those tweets wouldn't be allowed to exist on THE FLASH. I don't wish Sawyer any ill -- but I completely respect THE FLASH's showrunner, Eric Wallace, not wanting to associate himself or his show with Sawyer any further. Wallace had his show to think of and it had already weathered one scandal. It would be foolish to think it could survive another.

Sawyer could have scrubbed his tweets; he had years to do it. He left them there.

If my shameful homophobia in the SMALLVILLE fandom where I raged against Clark/Lex shippers were still online, I'd destroy it. Why leave that there to continue to harm others?

In terms of James Gunn: his jokes were not making light of other people's suffering (although that's how they came off). Gunn was trying to present a joking version of his grief over how his teacher raped him when he was a boy. All of his rape 'jokes' were about how he was assaulted; when he dressed up as a pedophile priest, he was dressing like the man who molested him to try to control the imagery of his nightmares.

With Sawyer -- what sympathetic reasoning can there be for 'joking' about cutting off women's breasts or saying they shouldn't vote? Why good reason could there be for putting that out into the world? Nobody forced Sawyer to communicate those sentiments; I'm not sure anyone is obligated to insulate him from the blowback and consequences of saying what he said -- although I wish they could have found a way to let him pay a price but still keep his job.

If someone could operate on my brain and take away my social awkwardness and the handicaps that prevent me from writing Torme and Weiss/Temporal Flux style SLIDERS stories and the inherent misogyny that I only cast off at age 24 and my racism (I keep dating androgynous looking white women, it's a serious problem), I'd take it.

That's just me, of course.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

TemporalFlux wrote:

A shame about Sawyer.  I think that my concern with this “cancel” is that he’s been on the show three years now, I think?  If he were behaving badly on set or in person, I would hope it would have come to light before now (especially after Kreisberg), so it’s sad to me to see another career ruined and show damaged due to written acts on Twitter.

I guess we'll see what happens.  I would think Candice Patton is the type who would say something if she felt he was racist or sexist.  I also think Jesse L. Martin as the paternal figure on the show could speak for him or Jessica Parker Kennedy or Danielle Panabaker or Danielle Nicolet or anyone on the show.  There's a lot of women and a lot of people of color on that show, and I hadn't heard a thing about it.  Unless he completely hid his sexism and racism, I think TF is would've come out.  So I guess we'll see if it comes out now.

I hope Hartley can work again.  He lost this job but Gunn got his job back.  Even Mel Gibson made a comeback.  I don't think his career has to be over - especially if his change is real and his apology is genuine.  People love to tear celebrities down, but we also like a real comeback story.  He's young and I think he's at least CW talented.  If he wants to claw his way back, I think he can.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

ireactions wrote:

With Sawyer -- what sympathetic reasoning can there be for 'joking' about cutting off women's breasts or saying they shouldn't vote?

My initial judgment would be that he hated or hates women. The question is why?  Something led him there unless he is just a charming Ted Bundy style psychopath.  I will admit there is that possibility.

ireactions wrote:

If someone could operate on my brain and take away my social awkwardness and the handicaps that prevent me from writing Torme and Weiss/Temporal Flux style SLIDERS stories and the inherent misogyny that I only cast off at age 24 and my racism (I keep dating androgynous looking white women, it's a serious problem), I'd take it.

That's just me, of course.

But then you wouldn’t be you.  People are messy; we are the sum of our experiences just as much as we are the vessel of our genetics.   Certainly some need to be removed from society because they act on an impulse to hurt or kill others; but for most, our quirks and backgrounds lead to humanity's evolution as a whole.  Someone saying hurtful things may not be redeemable; but them saying it likely led someone else to think about something differently and change who they were.  It started the conversation.

Anyway, I can’t claim to know you well, and I don’t always agree with you; but I like you for who you are.  If I knew someone was about to cut open your brain and artificially change that forever, I would fight it.  It is like John Donne’s work “No Man is an Island “ - “Any man’s death diminishes me...”.  Such a brain surgery would be the death of you as a personality, and we would all be cheated out of what you may have discovered and shared on your natural journey through life.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I think having my flaws and deficiencies surgically removed is a pipedream anyway. :-) But I am astonished that you think you don't know me well given your regular exposure to my neuroses and obsessions.


I suppose it's possible Hartley Sawyer is a serial killer who hates women. But it's more likely to me that he thought his online self only existed in the online realm, and he didn't think of it as 'real' much in the same way someone might play GRAND THEFT AUTO and not consider that real. Most people who play in that digital realm as murderous car thieves would never kill or rob in real life.

Today, there is no distinction between an online identity and a real one. I would imagine that Sawyer, an animal shelter volunteer who, as Slider_Quinn21 and TF point out, worked for three years with black castmates, is not prone to racist behaviour face to face. And maybe on a show that wasn't already rocked by one scandal that nearly brought it all down, Sawyer's job could have survived.

I have no moral high ground myself. There could be a lot of AOL Instant Messenger and MSN Messenger transcripts and email threads with my bad behaviour within. The best that can be said is that those conversations end with a apology (years later) for my intrusions and offenses and a promise that they didn't happen to anyone else.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I don't know a ton about Hartley Sawyer.  In 2014, he was already a cast member on Young and the Restless so it isn't like he was a guy on twitter who knew all of his followers personally.  I do think, especially before cancel culture really kicked in, people posted things on social media that might've been inside jokes or references that only his friends care about.  I don't know about some of his more angry-sounding tweets, but the "women shouldn't vote" tweet could've just as easily been about a female friend of his who was the deciding vote to get Mexican food when he wanted pizza.  A story he might not even be able to remember now.  I know that happens to me with my facebook "on this date" stuff....I have no idea what I meant sometimes.

I would think that we should judge Sawyer on his current life now.  But unfortunately, he works on the wrong show at the wrong time for that to matter right now.  If he's truly changed, I hope his castmates come to his defense...if not for his career, at least so people don't demonize him.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

They're not defending him publicly. All Grant Gustin has had to say is, "Words matter." But serial killers who mutilate and rape women generally don't boast about it on social media except in delusional incel fantasies. I'm settling on the theory that Sawyer thought the internet was like GRAND THEFT AUTO; a video game that wasn't real. TF could probably make an excellent SLIDERS story out of this and we could call it "A Thousand Deaths."

If THE FLASH and all Arrowverse shows hadn't already been rocked by one horrific sexual scandal with noted sexual harasser Andrew Kreisberg, things could have been different. Adult Swim did some effective PR work when an old video of Dan Harmon performing the rape of an infant (a plastic doll) was shown online, saying, “The offensive content of Dan’s 2009 video that recently surfaced demonstrates poor judgement and does not reflect the type of content we seek out. Dan recognized his mistake at the time and has apologized. He understands there is no place for this type of content here at Adult Swim.”

So, here's some free public relations work for Sawyer from me. He could say: "I'm very sorry for those horrible posts. When I wrote those comments, I thought of the internet as being separate from real life where my online persona was a digital puppet that I could have say ridiculous and hurtful things that that would only be upsetting in the separate realm of the internet. I didn't consider people I'd only ever know and talk to through the internet to be real, and I didn't consider my behaviour on the internet to be real either. I see now that it was a mistake that has proven thoughtless, savage and cruel because your online life and your real life are one and the same and there is no difference from saying something on Twitter and saying it in reality. I should have known that. I am ashamed. The person I was online is no longer who I want to be."

And the CW could declare:

"The offensive content of Sawyer's tweets video that recently resurfaced demonstrates poor judgement and does not reflect behaviour or content that we produce, perpetuate, endorse or tolerate among our employees. Sawyer has recognized his mistake and apologized. Sawyer will be participating in public forums on netiquette and cyberbullying to encourage our young viewers to avoid his past mistakes. He understands there is no place for this kind of behaviour here at the CW. We look forward to seeing his work in that field as well as in Season 7 of THE FLASH."

If only.


Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Javicia Leslie is the new Batwoman.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I didn't want Kate Kane replaced. I wanted her recast with Wallis Day. I'm furious that Kate won't be in the show anymore. But Javicia Leslie is amazing. And I'm not a very sexual person, but I find Leslie's charisma and athleticism and screen presence and air of command to be irresistibly sexy. So... I guess I'll have to support this, if only because supporting a talented black actress playing the lead in a superhero show is worth the grief of losing Kate Kane.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I'll be watching for sure.  I'm fascinated to see how it works out, especially since the show was so much about Kate.  I also hope the fans are nicer to Javicia than they are to Candice Patton.


Regarding Sawyer, I just saw your previous post about the cast not supporting him.  I wonder if they can't publicly.  Grant Gustin didn't support him, but he also didn't condemn him.  I think he's toeing the line because he can't appear to support what Sawyer said, and he can't support Sawyer without appearing to do that to some people.  I think a brief but firm statement is the best he can do.  I hope if they genuinely thought he'd changed and was a good person and a friend that they'd call him personally and try to help out in some other way.

I don't think Sawyer is an amazing talent, but he's likeable.  I think he'd actually be a pretty decent Quinn Mallory in the right circumstances - he gives me a 1995 Jerry O'Connell vibe - someone who is obviously classically attractive with action movie star qualities, but who seems a bit too quirky to pull it off.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

On BATWOMAN -- the show has outmanuvered me and the fanbase.

Refusing to recast Ruby Rose with a new performer to play Kate was nonsensical and the fans were outraged. But then they cast Javicia Leslie as a new character who'd become BATWOMAN -- which means demanding that Kate Kane return (and be played by Wallis Day) is also demanding that a terrific black woman be traded in for a white girl. Calling for a recast Kate after Leslie's hiring is now an untenable position. There is no way to argue for that without arguing against representation.

The CW superhero lineup, aside from Black Lightning, is alarmingly Caucasian across the board. I want Kate Kane back, I want Wallis Day... but I also really want black women and girls to see someone who looks like them fighting crime in a cape and cowl. And I guess the BATWOMAN showrunners saw an opportunity to do that when their lead actress quit a 5 - 7 year contract on them and saw a chance to challenge their overly white image. I don't support BATWOMAN without Kate Kane. But I support women of colour in leading roles, so I'll have to swallow my frustration over Kate.


I think Hartley is great. The thing about Hartley is that in the hands of a more conventional actor like Jerry O'Connell, Ralph would be a collection of behavioural tics (much like Jerry on his TV show CARTER where he plays a needy, attention-demanding actor). Hartley gave Ralph this earnest sincerity and empty-headedness that seemed genuinely goodhearted but with his myopic dimness making him behave in unwitting selfish ways.

I think Hartley could probably go back to school and get his vet license and pursue another career in his passion for animals.


Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I only watch Stargirl, I find it quite refreshing.  As it seems the pandemic will probably keep me home for quite some time, I am likely to do a massive CW DC rewatch.  I have wanted to rewatch Smallville particularly the high school years as I missed a lot of eps.  Then I'd move to the others.  Legends of Tomorrow and Supergirl of course have quite a bit of scifi and parallel universe stuff in them.  What sucks is that most of it is on stupid Hulu which I don't have.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I finished watching the last two episode of SUPERGIRL for Season 5. They were okay. Episode 18 and 19 were terrific in providing the long-awaited reconciliation between Kara and Lena. The action was strong. The conflicts between Nia and Brainy were effective. Luthor's plans with Leviathan came to a strong climax. Episode 19 was apparently the result of combining the original episode 19 with the incomplete finale that would have been episode 20, so we had a climactic final battle with Leviathan but no resolution with Lex Luthor. In addition, Brainy's status is left unknown, the DEO is destroyed and Alex starts a new life as a vigilante but there is no real follow-up on any of those three arcs. It's a little messy.

However, because the episode had a strong shot at the end of Kara and Lena shaking hands, there was a sense of closure that was satisfactory and certainly better than THE FLASH cutting off in the middle of an arc. It was the best SUPERGIRL could have done under the circumstances and it was good enough.


LEGENDS, because of its short episode order, didn't end on a confused cliffhanger and it works. I was disappointed that the original Zari didn't return and we have the Instagram influencer staying on full-time. Apparently, there was some thought to keeping both Zaris, but it became clear during filming that it'd be impossible to have one actress play two roles for an entire season. It feels really disappointing to me because I really liked original Zari's deadpan nonchalance in the face of madness. When SUPERNATURAL resurrected Charlie as her alternate universe doppelganger, I was able to accept the new Charlie as much as the old one because they were so similar in mannerisms and history even if the alternate Charlie had a darker demeanor. The alternate Zari, however, is effectively a different character played by the same actress.


Still no word on GREEN ARROW AND THE CANARIES. I desperately need to see Katherine MacNamara fighting crime with a bow and arrow. Please let this happen.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max) … 234779394/

Interesting.  So Arrow and Supergirl will be gone.  Batwoman is obviously in some sort of state of chaos.  Legends is only *barely* in the Arrowverse (like Stargirl or Black Lightning).  Flash seems to be on its last legs, narratively.

I wonder if this is the beginning of the end.  There's a scenario where Flash ends soon.  Superman & Lois is about to start and Batwoman is rebooting with their season two so those two shows could keep it going for a long time.  But I wonder if, like the DC movies, these shows might not be all that connected.  There was a tie between Supergirl and Batwoman but all that ended with Kate Kane.

I'll be interested in what they decide to do.  Does this make Green Arrow and the Canaries more likely to move forward?  Or less likely?  Will Stargirl join Earth Prime?  Will Swamp Thing get picked up and added?  Or will they let this thing run its course on a smaller scale once Flash ends?

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Well, Berlanti is spreading out from CW - his Green Lantern series and Strange Adventures are going to HBOmax (which will also host Titans and Doom Patrol).  The CW is kind of losing its grip on DC even before this.  HBOmax is sucking up the oxygen.

I think the CWverse would have clicked on a bit longer, but it could be another victim of the pandemic.  The shut downs accelerated what was going to happen anyway.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I feel six years is just right for SUPERGIRL. I'll miss it, but after a shaky but enjoyable start, SUPERGIRL has been a winner for just about every season except the awkwardness of Season 3 when it fired its own showrunner for sexual harassment and fumbled its way to the finale. SUPERGIRL has been so topical, so aware of the world in which it is watched, so earnest in its social justice values -- and I would have worried that SUPERGIRL continuing for a SUPERNATURAL-length period could have overstretched its earnest statements into formula -- a bit like how THE FLASH and ARROW had Barry and Oliver deliver an inspiring speech about something or other every year whether they had anything inspiring to say or not.

No idea what's going on with BATWOMAN or how they can possibly make the show without a recast Kate Kane, but Javicia Leslie is awesome so I'll support her in anything despite my reservations.

THE FLASH lost its way in Season 3 and I don't think it can find its way back because what made THE FLASH a unique TV show was that it was so ridiculously fast, telling stories in 1 - 2 episodes that other shows would tell in 1 - 2 seasons. But with Season 3 and 4, THE FLASH started slowing down its pacing. Without the speed, the characters feel thin and the villains feel disposable and the central theme of the show (speed) is absent and there has never been anything to replace it other than Barry and Iris being cute and Ralph Dibney being funny and now we don't have Ralph Dibney. It's a shame, but it does speak to how Andrew Kreisberg was a pretty great showrunner even though he was rightly and correctly fired off his show for sexual harassment.

Hopefully, SUPERMAN AND LOIS will do well, GREEN ARROW AND THE CANARIES will be picked up, LEGENDS will have a few more seasons and BATWOMAN will... uh, well, like I said, I'll watch Javicia Leslie in anything.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

TemporalFlux wrote:

Well, Berlanti is spreading out from CW - his Green Lantern series and Strange Adventures are going to HBOmax (which will also host Titans and Doom Patrol).  The CW is kind of losing its grip on DC even before this.  HBOmax is sucking up the oxygen.

Yeah and what's weird about the HBOMax DC shows is that they aren't connected either.  Even though Doom Patrol literally spun off from Titans with a backdoor pilot, they didn't even stay in the same continuity.  No more Titans and Doom Patrol crossovers.  Same with Stargirl and Swamp Thing.  As popular as the Arrowverse was, no one really did much with the idea of interconnected comic book shows.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

So I've been watching some of the DC Universe shows.  I watched Doom Patrol on HBO Max, Harley Quinn on SyFy and then HBO Max, and I've been watching Swamp Thing on CW and Stargirl on the CW app.

I'm actually fairly impressed with the shows they've come up with.  I watched Titans season one last year and thought it was fun (although it felt a bit restrained).  I really liked Harley Quinn - it's my favorite of the batch (but also gets the most freedom with animation).  Doom Patrol was a lot of fun, but again, I feel like that show would've been better if it was more tied with Titans.  Even just a cameo here and there would've been nice.

Swamp Thing and Stargirl are a little harder to read since they've edited for CW.  I'm sure it's much worse with Swamp Thing, but as I'm currently watching Stargirl, something was bothering me.

Mainly....what is this universe they've created?  It doesn't feel at all like a superhero universe.  It feels like the JSA/ISA were completely underground, but at the same time, Wildcat had a Wikipedia page with all of his powers?  A world where there used to be superheroes and then the villains killed them all is interesting - they seem to want the world to be identical to others but also there used to be open superheroes but most people don't seem to care/remember anymore.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I totally forgot DOOM PATROL, SWAMP THING, STARGIRL and HARLEY QUINN existed. I've been too distracted by the Marvel Unlimited comic book app and work. Thank you for the reminder.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

They're all wildly different shows, both from each other and from Titans.  So it makes sense that they haven't crossed over.

Titans is a coming of age story in a brutal and dark world.  I haven't seen season two.
Doom Patrol is a redemption story in a bright and colorful comic book world.
Swamp Thing is a mystery in more of a mythical/horror world.
Harley Quinn is a very adult, very funny animated story that flexes its DC muscles quite a bit.
Stargirl is more of a teenage/CW coming of age story that tries to live in a comic book world merged with a hyper-realistic one.

I've been very impressed, actually.  They created a number of fun shows that feel different but also work in different ways.  Want a brutal, cinematic look at the DC universe from the fringes?  You have Titans.  Want a funny and fun look at the DC universe from some of its more bizarre corners?  You have Doom Patrol.  Want horror and mysticism from the dark corners of the DC universe?  Swamp Thing.  Want a fun Rick and Morty-like show that sticks you right in the middle of the DC universe?  You have Harley Quinn.  And want a cute and more child/teen-friendly look at the DC universe from a Golden Age perspective?  You have Stargirl.

They all give you something a little different with at-least Arrowverse level of quality (and in some cases, much better).  The DC universe dying is a bummer because I think it could've been really cool if it'd thrived a bit more.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Guggenheim leaving the Arrowverse: … rn-series/

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I don't know what to say about Guggenheim. LEGENDS has mostly been run by Chris Fedak, Sarah Schechter, Phil Klemmer and Keto Shimizu. Certainly, Guggenheim has been present throughout ARROW, but during Seasons 1 - 2, he was working closely with noted sexual harasser Andrew Kreisberg. Season 1 was a CW attempt at a Christopher Nolan movie; Season 2 went more into SMALLVILLE-esque larger than life superheroics on a street crime level. It's hard to say which one was Guggenheim's style.

With Season 3, Guggenheim was paired with a new producer, Wendy Mericle and the series began stretching from street crime to assassin death cults and magical resurrections and Iron Man style battle armour that were an odd fit. Guggenheim and Mericle were also showrunners for the Season 4 dive into fantasy with magical totems and telekinetic villains at which point Stephen Amell declared that if he had to fight a magical villain for another season, he was out. One would think that perhaps Guggenheim had lost his way without the steadying hand of noted sexual harasser Andrew Kreisberg who, in Season 3, had been devoting more his attention to running THE FLASH and sexually harassing the writing staff of THE FLASH.

Stephen Amell wrote:

I put my heart and soul into every day of work and every episode, but at the same time there is a lull in any relationship where you need to have a ‘come to Jesus’ moment, so to speak. That happened for me in the latter half of Season 4, where I feel like there were just a few things that got lost in the shuffle, so we needed to really refocus in season 5.

The original vision of ARROW has been augmented and changed to support and accept and help introduce various other shows, and that is a wonderful amazing opportunity. Now that that’s done, we have to do what we do well.

There are things that LEGENDS and FLASH and SUPERGIRL can do based on the sort of more fantastical nature of their shows. But there are things that we can do that none of them can.

We are a street-level crime fighting show. We’re at our best when we’re focused on those things.

I do really believe that this season is sort of a throw-down-the-gauntlet year for us, where we’re either going to do what we do and do it well or it’s the last year. If we find that magic formula -- which is not magic -- it’s just hard work and playing to your strengths -- then the show could go on for a really long time.

With Amell's support, Season 5 - 6, Guggenheim and Mericle shepherded two of ARROW's finest seasons which returned to the Season 2 style of heightened street crime stories while re-establishing the Oliver and Felicity romance as a partnership of equals rather than the peculiar Harlequin it had become. Guggenheim left as showrunner after this, with Season 7 run by Beth Schwartz who did an excellent job of maintaining the street crime adventures of Seasons 5 - 6. Guggenheim returned for Season 8 and with Schwartz, produced a human-perspective prologue to the cosmic events of CRISIS.

It's hard for me to say what Guggenheim's style is as when left to largely his own devices, he steered ARROW into a fantasy direction for two years, but he and Mericle also steered ARROW back to its roots for the two years after that. I will say that it takes humility and vision to shift a show in one direction but then decide to reverse course, although I'm sure it helps if the star of the show is demanding that reversal.

I'm sure Temporal Flux would have a much more coherent take on Mr. Guggenheim.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Well, I don't really know how much juice the Arrowverse has in it.  As it stands right now, there's:

- The Flash (going into Season 7)
- Legends of Tomorrow (going into Season 6)
- Supergirl (going into sixth and final season)
- Black Lightning (going into season 4)
- Batwoman (going into season 2)
- Superman & Lois (about to premiere)
- Stargirl? (going into season 2)

Supergirl is ending.  Stargirl is only technically Arrowverse but is moving to the CW.  Black Lightning is slightly more connected but still pretty separate.  Legends is really it's own thing.  Batwoman is either going to be revitalized with a new lead or end quickly.  Flash is dragging.

As I said before, I think the best thing to do is to keep moving in the direction of "These are all separate shows and they have a yearly crossover" - because a lot of the narrative connections in the show are over.  Now that Kate Kane is gone, Batwoman is entirely separated from the other shows (it wouldn't be hard to reconnect but that's where it is).  When Supergirl goes, that'll sever a major tie between the other shows and Superman.  Legends is already its own thing and Sara/Oliver was the main tie there.  Black Lightning has always been separate.  Stargirl is in a different universe.

I think if they make an effort (Batwoman meets the team, Superman makes new connections outside of Kara, Stargirl comes over from Earth 2, etc) then they can keep it connected.  If not, they'll essentially be separate shows, and at that point, I don't even think the crossover is necessary.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

There was almost a surprise Arrow season 9 due to COVID logistics: … ppen.html/

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Watched the first six episodes of STARGIRL. Wow! What a fun show. Thanks to Slider_Quinn21 for reminding me that it existed.

I've never really understood the appeal of the Justice Society of America, a group of barely published superheroes from WWII who were quickly eclipsed by the Justice League -- but STARGIRL manages to distill the appeal pretty effectively by revealing that the JSA is a multigenerational family of older veterans and young new heroes awkwardly co-existing. There is a wonderfully frank presentation of Courtney Whitmore as Stargirl: she's sullen, rude, self-centered, impulsive. She's also driven, inspired, daring, and has an instinctive sense of right and wrong.

It's interesting that the character is based on showrunner Geoff John's sister who died in a plane crash when she was 18 and this is Johns' portrait of his deceased sibling's persona and spirit. There is a wonderful sense of these awkward young people acquiring the mantles of dead and retired heroes and staggering in the footsteps of their predecessors.

The effects and location filming are impressive for a show that is supposedly to be moving to the CW for Season 2. The villains are creepy in how they've assimilated into civilian life but with their cruelty and sadism and pettiness in full force. There is a gleeful joy in superheroes in STARGIRL that I never felt when reading the first few issues of the 90s JSA comic book, although I confess that I never got to the Geoff Johns issues (he only started on the comic after the first story-arc).

It's funny how SMALLVILLE was always so embarrassed to really show superheroes, having all their superhero characters where street clothes with the same colours as the actual costumes. Then Geoff Johns wrote "Legion," "Society" and "Absolute Justice," all three of which declared that SMALLVILLE was a superhero universe and had a future and a past that had contained superheroes, and the show began to feel comfortable with costumes and superhero personas. Now Johns' joy in superheroes is mainstream and he's doing a show where all of his joy in superhero legacies and superhero families is presented in full force.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I'm glad you liked it!  I think Stargirl has the most heart of all the DC Universe shows.  I think it'll slide pretty easily into the Arrowverse, but I agree with you - I think the production value will suffer in the same way (maybe more?) that Supergirl did.

I'm now halfway through the second season of Titans.  It's my favorite of the DC Universe shows (although Harley Quinn is so good), and I'm excited to see how it continues to grow.  I thought it was nice to bring Bruce Wayne in, although I don't buy Iain Glen in the all.  I know he's supposed to be an older Bruce, but he's also supposed to be an active Bruce.  Iain Glen is almost sixty - was Batman 40 when he took in Dick?  Seems like a really weird casting choice, and I just can't see him being Batman.

It's a lot of fun.  I look forward to it every time I get a chance to watch.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Posted this last year about TITANS (spoilers) and Iain Glen (spoilers).

ireactions wrote:

TITANS has featured Bruce Wayne as played by Iain Glen in the second season. TITANS in Season 2 has not been allowed to show Batman (and was only permitted to show him played by a nearly off-camera stunt double in the costume Season 1). Therefore, Glen appears only as Bruce Wayne and never in the costume. It's interesting: Iain Glen is 58 years old and renowned for playing men with astonishing fighting abilities especially on GAME OF THRONES, but he has a certain rigidity in his movements. He has a receding hairline.

Most incarnations of Bruce Wayne, even in old age, look more like Liam Neeson and Tom Cruise in their late 50s; when Glen showed up onscreen in TITANS, I thought he was playing Alfred. His barely suppressed Scottish accent under a weak American one was bizarre. When sitting down on a sofa, he noticably braced himself against the armrest. He looked infirm and weak and his voice was awkward; I couldn't imagine this slow-moving, gentle man as Batman.

The Batman that Dick imagined in the TITANS Season 1 finale was a demonic force who moved like a cracked whip whereas Glen seemed to regard sitting down as something he has to do carefully or he could miss the cushions and end up on the floor. The thing is, however, while Glen bracing himself against an armrest plays onscreen looks like physical weakness, it's in fact a mannerism in how he seats and orients his body. It does not reflect the extremely able-bodied and athletic man that Glen actually is.

Glen appears in a subsequent episode as a hallucinatory Bruce Wayne, and this time, his accent is much improved, but he's playing a sardonic, comedically mocking figure who voices Dick's insecurities. He doesn't seem like Batman. Later in the season, however, Dick hallucinates Bruce again and imagines Bruce beating him up -- and suddenly, Glen displays a stunning physical prowess. He dodges Dick's blows with instantaneous speed. He throws single punches that knock Dick and the camera to the ground. He counters attacks with a controlled ferocity.

Naturally, there's a bit of trick editing here to speed up Glen's motions and accentuate the force of his attacks. But it's up to Glen to sell it and he sells it.

Suddenly, the slightly unconvincing American accent doesn't matter. Glen's aged face and fading hair don't matter. Glen's physicality takes on a predatory, otherwordly presence and he conveys a cool self-assurance so as to be above Dick Grayson's neuroses and anxieities. Iain Glen suddenly doesn't need the costume and or the Batman-jawline of Christian Bale or the voice of Kevin Conroy. The awkwardness of his earlier appearances is cast aside. Glen is unmistakably Batman. It works.

Still, I'd be interested to see Slider_Quinn21's take on it.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I do remember that now (and almost certainly based some of my opinion on that memory).  I didn't read all of it so I'll respond back next week or so once I've finished season two.

The CW is showing Swamp Thing.  Like with Stargirl, the episodes are edited so I'm not sure if I'm getting the full show as intended, but it kinda drags a bit.  I still think it's watchable and compelling enough to stick with, but I think it's certainly the weakest of the DC Universe shows and I can see why it wasn't renewed.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

There was one thing that threw me off in the first episode of STARGIRL -- I thought it was an odd comedy choice for the dying Starman to tell Pat Dugan that someone would have to carry on the legacy of the JSA's heroism and then immediately declare, "Not you," as though Pat, a bold, valiant, self-sacrificing, caring friend who could build giant battle robots out of old car parts was somehow not up to the task of being a superhero.

Pat is not particularly more flawed than the average person on the show and is prepared to crash his own car to protect Courtney's secret identity and embrace the indignity of being a disrespected stepfather because he understands that the girl has been in a permanent state of grief. I don't know why Starman thought so poorly of his supposed friend or why he worked with someone he regarded so badly.

But first episodes are where the writers and actors are still working out how to combine their talents. Maybe Pat was supposed to be grossly incompetent only for Luke Wilson's performance to steer the character differently.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Yeah, I thought that was strange too.  I also don't know what Starman had to say about it, either.  Especially since the staff seems to react to certain people and not to others.  Sylvester could've passed the staff to Pat, and it could've rejected him.

I thought the joke was funny, but it was also unnecessarily cruel.

* Spoiler for one of the final 3-4 episodes *


I wonder if part of it was to sell the idea that Sylvester could be the kind of guy who could essentially be a deadbeat dad that lied to his family.  If he was kind of a jerk to his friend at the end, you could see him having a daughter and not being around until he died.  He wasn't on screen enough to get any sense on why Sylvester and Pat were even friends.  I got the idea that maybe Sylvester just let him tag along but probably made fun of him behind his back.

I'd be interested in seeing flashbacks to see what their partnership really looked like.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

About the STARGIRL budget -- the effects and fight scenes are definitely more lavish than on THE FLASH. However, I have to admit, I didn't really notice the budget cut from SUPERGIRL moving to the CW. Slider_Quinn21 said some of the makeup effects on Metallo were poor. I wasn't really looking. I don't doubt that the reduced budget does show, but I wasn't trying to see it, so I didn't.

I don't know how STARGIRL will handle it. Showrunner Geoff Johns says that the most expensive part, the startup costs of developing the STRIPE robot and the cosmic staff effects have already been paid for. But maybe, as with SUPERGIRL, I won't see what I'm not looking for.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I really liked Titans season 2.  I think Harley Quinn gets to have the most fun of the DC Universe shows and all of them have their own charm (even Swamp Thing, which is my least favorite of the bunch), but I think Titans is the best one.  It's believable that the DC universe is out there, and it does a great job of teasing it without actually showing it.  I think the characters are strong, and I loved finally seeing Nightwing come to life.

The Donna death was....bizarre.  Beyond bizarre.  I get that she's probably not really dead, and they did enough to tease that Rachel is going to help her.  But they literally had two different Big Bad fights.  If they didn't want Connor to kill her, they could've easily had Slade do it.  And the fact that she randomly died way after the fight was over - especially when she wasn't even the most qualified to catch the beam.  Or even catch it in the first place.  That's not even lazy writing - that's....all I can think of is "bizarre"

But I'm glad it's back for season 3.  I liked what I've seen of the concept art.  I have to ask that they bring in Tim Drake, though.  Maybe they will.  I think he could be great, and it might be the best place for a Bat-family.

ireactions wrote:

Glen appears in a subsequent episode as a hallucinatory Bruce Wayne, and this time, his accent is much improved, but he's playing a sardonic, comedically mocking figure who voices Dick's insecurities. He doesn't seem like Batman. Later in the season, however, Dick hallucinates Bruce again and imagines Bruce beating him up -- and suddenly, Glen displays a stunning physical prowess. He dodges Dick's blows with instantaneous speed. He throws single punches that knock Dick and the camera to the ground. He counters attacks with a controlled ferocity.

I liked these scenes with Bruce.  I'm still not 100% sure that I see him as Batman, but the fighting scene was cool.  It's hard, since it was a hallucination if that's how Dick sees Bruce or how he is.  In the finale, Bruce is hijacking Luthor's auction, but he's just hanging out in the cave.  He seems more like Batman Beyond Bruce than "active" Bruce.

I wonder if he's essentially retired, maybe running some sort of Batman, Inc.  Maybe he's just a consultant for the Justice League now.  The only time we saw him as Batman was also in a dream.  I'd be interested if we could ever get Diana or Clark or Arthur on the show.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I don't understand TITANS. I understand the kind of story it's trying to tell, I just can't figure out what it's trying to say or why it would say it with these characters. TITANS is a brutalist portrayal of superheroes as troubled warriors. But I don't understand why these characters are put to that purpose -- although a lot of the confusion is also in the original source material.

There is no real reason why street level crimefighters like Robin and Hawk and Dove are in the same show as an alien princess like Starfire, a child of supernatural horror like Raven, an X-Men type character like Beast Boy and a Wonder Woman supporting character like Donna Troy, and TITANS doesn't make a particularly clear case for this odd mashup. The original comic book didn't make a particularly clear case for this either; it was simply a place to gather some underused copyrights (Robin, Kid Flash, Wonder Girl) with some additions (Beast Boy, Cyborg, Starfire) and see if readers would go for it (and they did, for a time).

It's also unclear why a show about a teen superhero team features the characters long after the team disbanded with none of the characters being teens and nobody being particularly heroic. Jason Todd is simply interested in beating people up. Dick Grayson abandons Raven. Hawk and Dove are 'heroes' looking to acquire money to retire and not be heroes anymore. All the Titans are keen to abandon Rose to Deathstroke. The majority of the characters are not teens, many aren't super, and none are heroes.

Setting that side, TITANS is about the psychological and physical wear and tear and toll of this difficult profession, and on that level, it succeeds -- I just don't understand what this show is trying to say about it. But it is moody, compelling, atmospheric and grimly ridiculous from the characters being ridiculously calm about bodyswapping and aliens and primordial forces of evil and Dick Grayson running around town after breaking out of jail like his being a convicted felon and fugitive is about as serious a charge as an overdue library book. TITANS is a successful show, although I couldn't tell you what it's successfully accomplished.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Finished STARGIRL. It was good, but the lavish fight choreography and extensive computer generated effects and single-shot action moments are so very, very expensive for a show that's moving to the CW. I can only think that they'll cut costs by (a) limiting the use of the STRIPE robot (b) moving to a slightly diminished level of action with shorter CG shots and (c) losing all the expensive licensed music.

I liked how the Injustice Society didn't see themselves as villains; in Icicle's mind, they face injustices and view mass murder as an acceptable means of correcting society's disregard for environmental catastrophe, prejudice and inequality, but his grief over his wife has warped his noble intentions into a vendetta of hatred and total disregard for the lives he thinks he's saving.

There's an odd emphasis on how killing is 'wrong' with Hourman chastised for planning to kill Solomon Grundy by Wildcat who then kills Brainwave while conceding it was a moral failure. In reality, superheroes refuse to kill villains because superheroes are published over multiple decades and killing off recurring supervillains means cutting off avenues of storytelling that might be needed again at some point.

There is nothing wrong with killing a wild, homicidal monster like Solomon Grundy who has murdered multiple innocent parties. There was also no real alternative to stopping a telepathic and telekinetic supervillain like Brainwave other than killing him and his twistedly impersonating the son he killed shows him to be an unrepentant murderer. It's ironic that his sadistic wish to toy with Yolanda by mimicking his dead son is what allowed Yolanda to get close enough to slash his throat. As Professor Arturo would say, Brainwave is a genocidal maniac, not a social worker.

Stargirl telling Pat that she is his daughter was quite beautiful.

I worried about Stargirl destroying the satellite which might have fallen on innocent people.

The closing scene of Stargirl and Pat flying through the sky is lovely and joyful and everything I want out of a superhero show and I was also happy to watch it on a giant IMAX sized screen (sort of) via the magic of an Oculus Go virtual reality headset.


Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Stargirl ran on CW during season 1 anyway, so I doubt the budget will be all that different.  I really liked the show.  I found Titans season 1 to be incredibly boring.  Haven't got to S2 quite yet.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Grizzlor wrote:

Stargirl ran on CW during season 1 anyway, so I doubt the budget will be all that different.

I think CW just bought Stargirl from DC.  It was still produced for DC Universe.  Kinda like how Swamp Thing is airing on the CW even though it was produced (and released on DC Universe).  I think DC probably saw the writing on the wall and decided to sell it off, but I'm pretty sure it was already complete when CW got involved.

I do think there are ways to make the show work without changing much, but we'll have to see.


On Titans.  I get what you're saying.  I think the show hasn't done a great job of explaining why any of them work together.  The "multiple generations working together" aspect doesn't truly work, but I think the younger generation with Dick does.  He wants to prove he can lead a team, and they look to him for guidance.  I think it would make more sense if Kory was a teenager, but that's really the only issue I have with it.

I just like the vibe of the show.  It feels like it belongs.  I buy that it's a universe with Superman and Constantine and Green Lantern.  I buy that the sidekicks decided back in the day that they wanted their own Justice League.  It all made sense to me.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Budget for Stargirl may not be as big of a concern as one would initially think: … different/

They’ve already done the heavy lifting of creating the CGI models in season one, and they get to bring that with them to CW.  They’re also not moving to Vancouver, so they’ll still have everything they built in Georgia without the expense of a move.

It won’t be like Supergirl which lost some things between Los Angeles and Vancouver (and Supergirl held up pretty good even with that).

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I hope it goes well. I love STARGIRL.


I don't think TITANS is a bad show. It's compellingly acted, drivenly filmed, intensely scripted and even absurdities like Dick Grayson being tried, convicted and sentenced in a few days work for a dark superhero reality. It's probably fine. It's probably just not for me. There's definitely an audience for more nihilistic superheroes with WATCHMEN, THE BOYS and now TITANS. As Transmodiar once said, I'm not the final arbiter of taste.