Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

An interesting theory about what the artificial speed force wil be:

S
P
O
I
L
E
R
S
?
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https://screenrant.com/flash-speed-forc … on-theory/

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

https://variety.com/2021/tv/news/arrow- … 234881450/

Sorry, ireactions

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I really can't blame any studio for cancelling any project right now whether it's the second seasons of TEENAGE BOUNTY HUNTERS and I AM NOT OKAY WITH THIS or the final season of GLOW or GREEN ARROW AND THE CANARIES. The unfortunate truth is that filming any film or show under COVID conditions is extremely expensive, filming action shows even moreso, and with GREEN ARROW AND THE CANARIES, the contracts for all the actors and the production team would have expired after so long a wait.

It would have been very costly to regroup everyone and come to new terms under current conditions when it might be better just to assemble a new team and do a new project. Katherine MacNamara has been fighting evil with her bare hands on TV for years and I have no doubt she will find some other project in which to run, jump, dive, roll, tackle, punch, kick, swing and inspire.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Yeah, luckily we still got plenty of her on Arrow.  I don't feel like this is a Wayward Sisters situation.  We got a good taste, not just a tease.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I was really upset when WAYWARD SISTERS didn't get picked up because I really wanted Claire and Kaia together -- but also because it's unlikely that Kim Rhodes and Briana Buckmaster (Judy and Donna) will ever lead a show and certainly not together.

I feel less sad about GREEN ARROW AND THE CANARIES. It would have been great. But GREEN ARROW AND THE CANARIES needed Katherine MacNamara, Katie Cassidy and Juliana Harkavy a lot more than they needed GREEN ARROW AND THE CANARIES. All three actresses are well-positioned for plenty of leading lady TV and film work, MacNamara in particular will leap into another action role.

There will likely be an episode of LEGENDS to resolve the arc.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

BATWOMAN works. [spoilers]












The creators made a very interesting choice: just as Ruby Rose abruptly ripped herself out of the show, Kate Kane is suddenly torn out of the show in a plane crash, presumed dead (no body) -- leaving Kate's supporting cast reeling from the shock just as the viewers are stunned, hurt, confused and disoriented.

When Ryan Wilder, played by the brilliant actress (and stunningly beautiful woman) Javicia Leslie finds the suit in the plane's wreckage and puts it on, Luke and Mary are furious and angry, calling Ryan a thief and impostor and unworthy to wear the cowl just as the viewers are angry to see a new person in the lead role of the series. Alice is furious that she has been denied her revenge on Kate. Jacob Kane, Kate's father, is forced to confront how his last scene with Kate had him holding a gun on her and vowing to hunt her down with no chance to ever take it back.

It reminds me of "Applied Physics," the only script in Season 5 that truly addressed Jerry O'Connell's absence with the characters horrified at Quinn's disappearance and his replacement by a stranger, except in this case, the entire episode and seasonal arc is about everything Kate brought to Gotham City by observing its absence. Kate's military training and precision is gone; Ryan's deranged ferocity is dangerous and a liability. Kate's militaristic sense of duty is gone; Ryan is a malfunctioning seeker of vengeance. Kate's confidence in her team is gone; Ryan doesn't trust Luke and Mary and doesn't want to work with them.

And at the end, Kate's father and ex-girlfriend Sophie collapse in grief, having to mourn Kate without ever getting closure and resolution with her -- just like us.

Stories can often get away with difficult or unworkable premises if they can reflect truth -- the truth of what the performers or the storytellers or the audience are experiencing individually or collectively. In this case, BATWOMAN has captured the feelings of the audience, and has committed to working through these feelings with the viewers.

I hope they can keep it up. I strongly disagree with their refusal to simply recast Kate Kane, but they've done a good job with removing Kate from the show.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I liked the Batwoman premiere.  I thought it was well done and was handled about as well as possible.  I liked Ryan as a character, and they did enough to make Ryan fit on the show (since literally everyone on the show was related to her).  I wonder if they'll reference any of this on Supergirl or the other Arrowverse shows.

I thought it was a bit odd that they decided to go with a CW-budget Batmobile.  Is that going to be what Ryan uses as Batwoman?

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I think that in the future, it will be jarring to go from the BW Season 1 finale to the Season 2 premiere. But in the moment of a first viewing, the premiere gave voice to all the fans’ frustrations. Jacob Kane is just as upset as the viewers that he won’t get to face Kate/Batwoman and address how he unknowingly declared his beloved daughter his enemy. Alice is just as furious as the fans that she won’t have a final confrontation with Kate. These scenes, while powerful, operate on the audience already knowing that Ruby Rose is out and not being recast (yet). The premiere doesn’t even get Rose to read her letter to Sophie in a voiceover and bows to the reality of a terrible and unthinkable casting situation.

I suspect that a rewatch won’t put the real world situation at the forefront and the story will have to stand for itself and... well, it’s an anticlimax. It’s a disappointment. And it’s something of an unavoidable failure even if the writers are doing their best.

The premiere gave a very strong argument for why they couldn’t recast Ruby Rose: we saw Ruby Rose’s Kate face down Jacob and Alice, so to have the subsequent confrontation feature __________’s Kate resolving issues originating with Rose’s Kate would have been mismatched and jarring with an uncanny valley effect of seeing someone who isn’t Ruby Rose address Rose’s supporting cast and emotional arcs. So they had the new Batwoman be someone who within the story isn’t Ruby Rose and isn’t Kate Kane addressing those characters and storylines.

The Batmobile was made for Season 1 and I’m guessing Tommy would have stolen the car and Kryptonite and forced Kate to pursue him for both. But when the pandemic shut down filming, production kept the car for Season 2. I imagine they only planned to use it for the Season 1 finale without necessarily insisting on reusing it for Season 2 since Kate’s motorcycle is so associated with her. Now it’s an open question.

1,359 (edited by ireactions 2021-01-26 19:33:28)

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Episode 2 of BATWOMAN. Once again, the writers are in an impossible situation: they have a season of BATWOMAN and they've lost the actress who plays Batwoman and for reasons that I grudgingly understand, they do not feel comfortable recasting Batwoman at this time with showrunner Caroline Dries saying that she thought it could only be jarring if character confrontations started by Ruby Rose's Kate Kane were concluded with some other actress' Kate Kane.

And with episode 2, we have another problem: if some new person, some nobody is going to be Batwoman now -- won't the show feel totally disconnected from Season 1? But episode 2 does something incredibly clever: it observes that Season 1 was very much about an absence, the absence of Bruce Wayne and Kate Kane constantly journaling to Bruce, asking this offscreen figure if she was making him proud, if he would approve of her, if she was good enough to take his place.

Season 2's second episode makes it clear that Season 2 is very focused on the void left by Kate Kane's absence. The city demands that Batwoman stand up to the Crows and protect the people. Alice has gone crazy(er). Sophie and Julia's romance has been shattered. Jacob Kane is so damaged he's terrorizing the only daughter with whom he can still be on speaking terms. Just as Bruce's disappearance left a void in Gotham for Season 1, Kate's absence has left a hole in Season 2 that characters once again circle, gingerly step past, stare into nervously or fall into completely.

This is something I really understand. I was 13 when I watched "The Exodus" and I think everything in my life after that to 2015 was a reaction to the death of Professor Arturo. Every anxiety, behavioural difficulty and psychological paralysis was the result of having watched a father get his brain sucked out before being shot and exploded, of being unable to confront and address this traumatic and terrible loss.

Season 2 truly feels like part of Season 1 despite losing its lead character. Just like Season 1, Season 2 is about all the ways people react to another absence: Mary wants the comfort of knowing someone will be Batwoman. Alice is disturbed that the Batwoman is wiling to kill her. Jacob is angry that someone would impersonate his daughter. And Luke declares that Ryan is but a temporary substitute until Kate's return when we know Ruby Rose is never coming back. He isn't ready to confront the truth and to be fair, he has good reason to think Kate's alive.

I don't really approve of the decision to not recast Kate. Paradoxically, I would approve of these stories as a path to recasting Kate -- by having Kate disappear in the plane crash, all the characters reacting to her death, various people standing in for Batwoman -- and then having a recast Kate return after 4 - 6 episodes, and account for the new actress not having Ruby Rose's tattoos saying that the plane crash necessitated skin grafts. They're probably not going to do that; they're still using photos of Ruby Rose as Kate Kane.

But even so: Episodes 1 - 2, despite being in a difficult and untenable situation, are extremely well-written, well-performed and well-produced. Being good counts.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

BATWOMAN, FLASH and LEGENDS have gotten early renewals for a 2021 - 2022 season. SUPERMAN AND LOIS are getting boosted from 13 episodes to 15.
https://bleedingcool.com/tv/cw-renews-w … s-add-eps/

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I've concluded that I just don't understand the CW's business model. BATWOMAN has been renewed for Season 3. It's averaging 700,000 viewers. Three episodes into the year!

Well, I adore the show, but I can't pretend I grasp the economics here.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I don't get it.  Why are they hinting that Kate is alive?  And then doing a storyline where finding her is key.

They had "find Bruce" when they didn't know whether or not they could use Bruce.  Now they're pulling a Sliders Season 5 and making a storyline about a star who probably won't come back.  Why do shows do this?  Unless Ruby Rose might do guest spots, this is just setting up for a storyline that goes nowhere.

I think Kate dying is fine.  Characters mourned her.  Ruby Rose doesn't seem like she wants to go back.  It's tragic but Kate has no superpowers.  She survived the Anti-Monitor but dies in a plane crash.  It sucks, but it's life.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I think they are hinting that Kate is alive because a story in which she goes missing simply demands that the characters try to find her. They can't possibly succeed. And I think Mary gave voice to that: Kate isn't coming back. Even if she survived the plane explosion, she would have had to survive the fall, then survive drowning -- the audience knows Kate isn't coming back, but if the characters don't exhaust every avenue to find her, it becomes a weird Season 4 situation where the sliders inexplicably don't make Wade their number one priority.

Even if the story goes nowhere, it's still somewhere the characters need to go -- or we'll forever be rewatching the scenes where they don't the way I rewatched "Mother and Child"'s "We don't have time" moment over and over and over again to the point of writing the Rewatch Podcast five emails about it and talking about it even today like it was the second most traumatic event of my life (the death of Professor Arturo being the first).

I think they are hinting that Kate is alive because the optics of killing off the most visible, most popular (and only) lesbian superhero on TV at the time is simply untenable. Gay people have oddly high body counts on television. And BATWOMAN's creators cannot bear to add to it even if Slider_Quinn21 would forgive them for doing it.

I also think that... once Kate has been offscreen for a while, there will be some reconsideration as to whether or not they can recast her. But I don't know that for a fact.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

... has there been any news as to who is playing Plastic Man in the next season of THE FLASH?
https://www.syfy.com/syfywire/the-flash … t-season-7

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

ireactions wrote:

I think they are hinting that Kate is alive because the optics of killing off the most visible, most popular (and only) lesbian superhero on TV at the time is simply untenable. Gay people have oddly high body counts on television. And BATWOMAN's creators cannot bear to add to it even if Slider_Quinn21 would forgive them for doing it.

I also think that... once Kate has been offscreen for a while, there will be some reconsideration as to whether or not they can recast her. But I don't know that for a fact.

I think that's fair.  As neither a woman nor LGBT, I'm certainly discounting the effect that she has and what she means to people.  I think (?) Ryan is a lesbian, and there's certainly plenty of representation on the show, but I absolutely understand (better, now) the optics of just killing her off.  But I also understand that it's on Ruby Rose.  If Ruby wanted to come back and save Kate, even for a cameo so she can go on some mission for the rest of the show, she could.  Keeping her alive but never seen again doesn't accomplish a ton, does it?  I loved the character of Quinn, but I never got any sort of peace or relief out of the idea that Quinn didn't die on screen.

I think it would've been better for Sliders if Quinn had been killed, even unceremoniously off screen, so that the other characters could move on and the writers could be free to do their thing.  Same with Wade.  Having the "we don't have time!" line and her coming back as a computer didn't make me feel better.

I get that it's a hard call.  But they're setting up mysteries that they can't solve.  Maybe they eventually get the rights to use Batman and/or real Bruce Wayne.  Maybe they convince Ruby Rose to wrap up her character or recast.  But at this point, they're writing themselves into holes when they could be writing cool new stories with Ryan.  That's where I think their focus should be.

The other option would've been to have Batwoman Inc. as the idea and recast almost everyone.  Maybe Kate sends Luke to help the new Batwoman establish herself in a different city.  Maybe she goes to Star City and they get some of the Arrow cast.  I don't know.  But that's one way they could've kept Kate alive without her on the show, and at least they could have "hey, I just got off the phone with Kate" scenes.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Well, the showrunner has said: she doesn't object to recasting Kate. What she objected to was:

  • Having Ruby Rose's Kate trick Alice into locking herself into Arkham Asylum and earning Alice's vengeful wrath.

  • Having Ruby Rose's Batwoman try to ally herself with Jacob Kane only for Jacob to turn on her, pull a gun on her and vow to hunt her down and kill her.

Followed by

  • Having Wallis Day's Kate Kane be the one to face down Alice now trying to kill her.

  • Having Wallis Day's Kate Kane be the one to unmask as Batwoman in front of Jacob Kane and reveal her true identity.

The tacit argument made by "Whatever Happened to Kate Kane" in having those arcs resolved by Kate's plane crash is that to have a new face confronting Alice's now-murderous feelings towards Ruby Rose's Kate is visually disconcerting. And that to have Batwoman unmask before Jacob Kane to reveal Wallis Day's face instead of Ruby Rose's face is also visually disconnected. (I'm just throwing in Wallis Day's name as a fan based dreamcasting.)

There's also the issue that Ruby Rose spent a whole year working with Rachel Skarsten and Dougray Scott. There is a familiarity and rapport and sense of family that was created over the course of many, many, many episodes. A new actress could fake it, that's what acting's all about -- but there's a naturalism that takes time to build and it's not going to exist after a one-week readthrough. There would be the odd sense that an arc that originated with Ruby Rose's Kate Kane is now concluding with some other Kane daughter.

However, if Kate is offscreen for awhile, the creators would then have the option of bringing in a new actress to play her, explaining that the plane explosion required some facial reconstruction and skin grafts (to explain why the new actress looks a little different and doesn't have the tattoos) -- and because of her absence, the performer would be building her relationships with Ruby Rose's supporting cast just as the character would be rebuilding them.

Looking at Season 2 so far: Kate's diary entry and letter were read by the character reading the message when TV convention usually has the person who wrote the message reading the voiceover. This tells me: BATWOMAN cannot get Ruby Rose to do so much as a voiceover, that every effort to send her a microphone and a voice recorder has been rebuffed. This tells me that the relationship between Rose and production is so hostile and acrimonious that she is never returning to that set.

If they don't want to recast Ruby Rose, then I think the simplest solution is that Safiya is lying, she doesn't have Kate and Kate really did die -- but in some brief LEGENDS crossover, Ryan gets sent 80 years into the future and discovers an in-her-60s Kate Kane (played by another actress who is older but looks and sounds like Rose) who reveals that some CRISIS-related whatever transported her out of the plane explosion and 50 years into the future where she resumed her career as Batwoman after Ryan had retired, becoming the Bat of the Future that the Monitor called her, then retiring herself and training a successor.

Ryan can return to the present and assure Mary and Luke that Kate will return some day. Just not today. (Like Sisko in DEEP SPACE NINE!) And fans are assured that Kate will return (off camera, in the future, long after the actual BATWOMAN TV series concludes).

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Anyone watch Superman and Lois? I thought it was well done and didn’t really feel like anything else they’ve done in the Arrowverse.

I’d need to go back and watch Crisis, but did they age the kids up in that episode? I vaguely remember them indicating that Crisis replaced one kid with two, but fairly certain their child was originally a baby. So do Clark and Lois not remember most of their kid’s lives (when they got their memories back) or did they not get their memories back or am I forgetting something?

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Watching it tomorrow!

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

SUPERMAN AND LOIS was good. I liked seeing Lois as a 40 year old woman. Usually, Lois is portrayed in her late 20s, caustic and abrasive and competitive and at times unpleasant, but this is a Lois who is more well-adjusted after many years while still being insanely positive while relentlessly practical. The budget is astonishing; this is clearly not the CW budget for SUPERGIRL but an HBO MAX coproduction with the CW.

CRISIS made some odd changes to continuity that weren't entirely consistent. Lois and Clark originally had a one year old baby, but after CRISIS, Superman got a phone call from Lois: "Clark, I need you to get to Metropolis now. It's the boys."

"The boys?!" Clark exclaimed.

"Yeah, honey, your SONS," Lois said, sounding exasperated and baffled by Clark's astonishment --

Except that didn't actually make sense because CRISIS established that only paragons remembered the pre-CRISIS timeline. Superman wasn't a paragon. He should have remembered having always had Jordan and Jonathan and having had them 14 years earlier than presented on SUPERGIRL. SUPERMAN AND LOIS either ignores this discontinuity or corrects it with Clark having full memories of Jordan and Jonathan. We can handwave it and say that Superman's memories were a glitch and J'onn Jonzz' telepathy resolved it.

**

SUPERMAN AND LOIS appears to be a superhero show doing EVERWOOD (a Greg Berlanti show about a widowed big city doctor who moves his son and daughter to a small town) except EVERWOOD was lighthearted and cheery and comedic whereas SUPERMAN AND LOIS is deliberately aiming for a darker tone where even Superman finds himself intimidated by predatory banks, layoffs, a son with some mental health issues and the death of two parents.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

ireactions wrote:

Except that didn't actually make sense because CRISIS established that only paragons remembered the pre-CRISIS timeline. Superman wasn't a paragon. He should have remembered having always had Jordan and Jonathan and having had them 14 years earlier than presented on SUPERGIRL. SUPERMAN AND LOIS either ignores this discontinuity or corrects it with Clark having full memories of Jordan and Jonathan. We can handwave it and say that Superman's memories were a glitch and J'onn Jonzz' telepathy resolved it.

I guess that makes sense.  So in Arrowverse continuity, he had those kids the entire life of the Arrowverse.  When Oliver returned to Starling City and started his quest, years before Barry Allen got his powers and Kara Danvers showed up on the scene, Clark and Lois were already married and had 6-year-old (ish?) twins?

In fact, Kara is only a few years (max ten?) older than his second cousins (is that what second cousins are?)

Considering the reboot, that really doesn't change much.  And I assume the pandemic will make it almost impossible for them to do any crossovers with this show so they may just never reference that.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

According to SUPERGIRL, Kara was 13 when she landed on Earth and Superman found her and 25 when Kara put on the Supergirl costume. Winn in the Season 2 premiere notes that Superman looks to be mid-30s when he should be in his mid to late 40s; Superman says that as Kryptonians get older, their aging slows. From that, I'd say Clark is supposed to be at least 15 years older than Kara even if he doesn't look it.

This is somewhat emphasized when Lana in SUPERMAN AND LOIS says that Clark still looks just like he did in high school (which doesn't appear to be true as they had a young actor play the character in the flashbacks), but it may be commenting on how Clark is in his mid-40s but is played by the mid-30s Tyler Hoechlin. I'm not sure Hoechlin even really looks that young; he has a complexion where even the slightest bit of stubble is highly distinct and makes him look unshaven and removes any youthful boyishness from his face.

It's odd that Kara wasn't at Martha Kent's funeral. She wasn't there partially because of the pandemic and mostly because Melissa Benoist was pregnant and on maternity leave when the pilot was filmed. I'd probably assume that Kara was at the funeral but was called away unexpectedly for an emergency or was handling any and all emergencies so that Clark could shut off his superhearing for the duration.

**

It's a bit odd that the last time we saw Clark in CRISIS, it was a scene that established that Clark has no idea who his teenaged sons are -- which should theoretically mean that Clark has no idea who this Jordan kid is and that Jonathan was an infant -- and Clark has now missed out on at least 13 years of his sons' development and has no familiarity or rapport with them. SUPERMAN AND LOIS has Clark recounting Jordan's anxiety and Clark's struggles as a father -- and I initially wondered if part of that was due to Clark having trouble relating to two strangers as his son.

The Arrowverse Wikia proposes that J'onn restored Clark's Earth-1 memories in CRISIS Part 7. Perhaps, due to all the family difficulties, Clark asked J'onn to undo the restoration. Alternatively, it's possible that Clark's 'core' memories are the Earth-1 version but the Earth Prime memories are a supplement -- which may have also contributed to his difficulty in bonding with Jordan. It would be an interesting mind screw situation if Jordan found out that beginning one year ago, his father lost all memory of his existence.

I don't think they're going to do that, however. It's just too convoluted to have Clark remember a different continuity from the TV show he's currently in.