Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

So, THE FLASH... once again, it's okay. I mean, it's fine. There's a villain with a gimmick and they beat it.

The show just isn't *about* anything. It's not about family, teamwork or speed. It's just moving the game pieces around, sometimes splitting them in half.

Oliver once snarked that Barry couldn't make it through a day without his team giving him a motivational speech, and I fear that this exaggerated insult has become painfully true due to an overreliance on formula.

**

SUPERGIRL, on the other hand, did something effective -- it debuted its sixth season with what was effectively the Season 5 finale, complete with a soft cliffhanger and everything from Season 5 largely wrapped up in a single episode. This is probably what THE FLASH should have done, if not in one episode, then with two at the most. SUPERGIRL was wonderfully paced, had a keen sense of drama and timing and wit, is set in the Fortress of Solitude which looks nothing like what's supposedly the same Fortress of Solitude on SUPERMAN & LOIS (the crews have to stay segregated due to pandemic, so they probably can't use the same sets and S&L's set probably cost as much as one episode of SUPERGIRL) -- and it's lovely.

I was happy to see a conclusive ending to Season 5 that was quick, succinct and to the point. THE FLASH took three weeks to wrap up its previous incomplete season; SUPERGIRL took one. It's unfortunate that SUPERGIRL is so fast while THE FLASH has become lethargic.

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I agree with that.  Although my biggest struggle, even with the Previously on Supergirl, was remembering what happened last season.  To launch into a season finale like that made me feel a bit whiplashed.  But it definitely feels better now than the Flash, which does feel muddled.

That's on me, not the show.  I get that.

Is there any explanation for why Lex doesn't hate Superman anymore?  He doesn't really mention him.  I sorta wish they'd ended Crisis with Superman on his own world.  I think it would've made sense, pandemic or not.

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I think the explanation is that Tyler Hoechlin is within the SUPERMAN & LOIS pod and even a crazy person like Lex Luthor knows not to break pandemic protocols and stay within the SUPERGIRL pod! :-D

1,384 (edited by ireactions 2021-04-10 08:31:01)

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I once again did not really understand very much of what was going on in THE FLASH this week except to say that Brandon McKnight is absolutely terrific as Chester. I don't really know WHY the show needs ANOTHER scientist when they have Caitlin and Cisco, but Caitlin may be off dealing with Frost this year. Chester has a terrific rapport with Cisco, the actor has a lot of heart and perfect comic timing in reacting to being transported back to the 1990s and he's game for ridiculous outfits and absurd confrontations with time warping football players. Cisco's "Coffee and a cronut" is a bit of an earworm. So, that's fine, I guess.

Side anecdote: Chester is in the comics as a supposed-supervillain named The Chunk whose body can become a black hole to consume/absorb/transport any matter. Writer Mike Baron created him as a minor supervillain, but when William Messner-Loebs took over THE FLASH, the Chunk had reformed and become a disposal specialist who handled overflowing landfills for cities and became a good friend of the Flash (who was Wally West at the time as Barry was suffering from a mild case of being dead from 1986 - 2008).

When Messner-Loebs left THE FLASH, he took The Chunk with him to WONDER WOMAN (but never had a chance to do anything with him) and The Chunk now only appears in comics for party scenes, crowd scenes, and when a writer has a plot that can only be resolved by a human black hole. Most characters like The Chunk get wheeled out for a crossover now and then and killed off to establish how frightening the new threat is; then they get resurrected at some later date so that a subsequent crossover can kill them off again. The Chunk has not suffered this, however, and with Brandan McKnight playing him on TV every week, he'll probably escape such a fate for a while longer.

**

I very much enjoyed SUPERGIRL and was thrilled to see Melissa Benoist sharing scenes with an actor like Jason Behr who has such gravity and graveness that's the perfect balance to Benoist peppy high energy. Not sure why William is still in this show, though. There's a character who could be written out with a bag over his head saying he's off to recover from an injury. The actor's good, though.

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Side note - I got a comixology membership and I've been reading HUSH.  It's really good and I went back and read ireactions' commentary on it.  It makes zero sense that it isn't actually Jason Todd.

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Hahahahaha! I'm not sure what's more ridiculous: that Hush was obviously meant to be Jason Todd only for DC to abruptly backtrack at the last minute -- or that if you read UNDER THE RED HOOD, you'll see DC backtrack on their on backtracking by deciding that it actually was Jason Todd under those bandages after all.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I’ve been hard on Danielle Panabaker in the past, but I thought she was really good in the most recent episode (“The People v Killer Frost”). I don’t know what changed, but she showed a ton of real emotion. And I wanted to say that.

Legends was fun it’s return. I love that the show doesn’t care at all, and I love that it owns it.

I’m struggling to care about this season of Supergirl and Batwoman. I like the main ladies on both, but the shows just aren’t drawing me in.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Sorry this year isn't working well for you.

I've been down on THE FLASH, but "Trial of Killer Frost" was good and overdue; Killer Frost has never been held to account for her crimes. I'd say that my opinion on Panabaker is unchanged; she is a good supporting actress, but she can't carry a scene alone unless she's playing her own scene partner.

I'm delighted with SUPERGIRL this year which is dealing with a challenging situation: they did not have Melissa Benoist for at least the first seven episodes as she was heavily pregnant. So they sent Kara into the Phantom Zone and wrote the season with Kara separated from her castmates so that Kara's scenes could be filmed once Benoist returned and edited into episodes, and Benoist isn't even in episodes 5 and 6 with the actress who plays her teenaged self taking over the role. It's clever and effective -- but the energy of the show definitely takes a hit because a lot of what makes SUPERGIRL super is Benoist's energy bouncing off all the other actors.

I'm also delighted with BATWOMAN this year which is also dealing with a challenging situation (see my previous posts in this thread) and I think the show also took a hit because episodes 1 - 8 had the characters searching for Kate Kane, a search that the audience believed to be pointless with absolutely no sign that Ruby Rose would return to the show. The show could not even get Ruby Rose to do voiceovers for Kate Kane's letters and diary entries and had a stunt double play Kate in an episode 2 flashback, masked and filmed at a distance and silent. You (and other viewers) felt that this search for Kate Kane was a pointless road to nowhere and of course that would also cause the show to hopeless until the end of episode 8 showed Wallis Day wearing Kate Kane's necklace with her face covered by a bandage.

I'm just guessing at why the shows aren't clicking for you this year, but I can see why SUPERGIRL without Supergirl interacting with her team for at least seven weeks would feel awkward. And I can see why BATWOMAN without the Batwoman we got to know in Season 1 with a plotline focused on finding a Batwoman we did not expect to find would be alienating.

I really enjoyed the LEGENDS premiere particularly Sara Lance saying, "Being an Avenger is stupid; the goal is to Prevent death. I'm a Preventer. You want to join the Preventers? Wear a god damn mask."

I may have made up the last sentence.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I also have SO MUCH to say about Wallis Day on BATWOMAN -- but I'm tired. I think I was delaying my exhaustion until I finished vaccine hunting and now I need a couple days off.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Batwoman is a bit more interesting these days.  I think they went a little hard on the police brutality stuff when I don't think that's really been a thing prior.  But on a show like this, I think it's a good statement to make.

Superman and Lois is still good.

Really looking forward to the Diggle multi-show arc.

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I'm pretty happy with BATWOMAN. It's interesting that despite hiring a new actress to play Kate Kane, Season 2 is still determinedly RYAN WILDER: BATWOMAN with Kate not even present as a character, just a body with someone else's face and memories. I have quite a bit more to say, but I need to lie down for a bit.

I am also excited for Diggle's arc across the shows.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

And we're back.

THE FLASH: The show is maintaining about the same level of quality it's had since Season 5 onwards -- it's filling an hour. The cast are pleasant, the plots are intriguing, but ever since Season 5, the storylines have switched from the theme of speed to the theme of family. It's attempting to present these speed force adjacent beings as Barry and Iris' children, a metaphor that doesn't seem to be landing, judging from the fan reaction on social media. The viewers are unable to accept that Barry and Iris are considering these adult actors whose characters have no relationship with Barry and Iris as Barry and Iris' offspring. There's also the fact that Barry and Iris as parents is a storyline already played out with with the Nora West-Allen character in Season 5; if THE FLASH wants to explore that some more, why not bring Jessica Parker Kennedy back as a regular rather than bringing in these strangers?

And also: THE FLASH continues its approach since Season 5 of having the stories unfold through scenes of people standing around talking. This approach is fine for SUPERGIRL and LEGENDS and SUPERMAN AND LOIS which are about the character dynamics, but when THE FLASH does it, it's slow and meandering and completely mismatched to a show about a speedster. The writers are all solid professionals doing a professional job, they just don't know how to use a very peculiar framework that was set up by an extremely harassing showrunner who is rightly no longer running any shows.

Caitlin and Frost splitting into separate beings is a good move.

BATWOMAN: The return of Kate Kane is quite intriguing in that the show is refusing to present Wallis Day as a return for the character we got to know over 20 episodes in Season 1. Instead, Wallis Day's Kate Kane is a suppressed presence; Wallis Day plays Circe Sionis, a deranged psycho henchwoman whose mind has replaced Kate's consciousness. BATWOMAN remains Ryan Wilder's show, and the series is doing a terrific job of giving Ryan all sorts of threats and challenges from the Crows hunting her to the need to trust Sophie.

Alice's plot is also a winner: in a single episode, Alice is reduced to such desperation that she calls her own father, pleading for his help and even referring to herself as "Beth" and shrieking for "Daddy" only for a drug addicted Jacob Kane to hang up on her, choosing the hallucinogenic fantasy of his daughters being alive and then overdosing on the drug that's granting him any escape from his grief and loss.

It does make me wonder how much Wallis Day will be a presence on the show: her casting announcement was followed by over a month before she finally made a full appearance, she appeared in one scene in the episode after that. The show declares that Wallis Day does not look like Kate Kane; Wallis Day looks like deceased Arkham inmate Circe Sionis. Alice does not recognize Circe Sionis' face as Kate's; she only recognizes the eyes. How can Kate reclaim her identity as Kate Kane if she has the face of a stranger? How will the show justify why Alice doesn't recreate the face of Ruby Rose for her sister? We know this is Kate's appearance going forward.

That said, a fan pointed out that the face of Circe Sionis is presented in a photograph with Wallis Day's hair and makeup making her very conventionally feminine whereas the face of Wallis Day's Kate Kane might be presented with Wallis Day's hair short and her makeup more minimal. Wallis Day looks a lot like Ruby Rose if her face is angled slightly to the left or right; when filmed at a low angle and head on, Day's rounded chin is in stark contrast to Rose's triangular features.

SUPERGIRL: This show is in a difficult position: they had to start filming the first seven episodes of the final season without Melissa Benoist who was pregnant. They finished the incomplete material they had from the previous season (and without Benoist available to film any new material). They wrote the next six episodes with the supporting cast dealing with Kara having been isolated to the Phantom Zone with her father, deciding that when Benoist came back, they could film her Phantom Zone sequences to allow her to feature strongly in episodes 2 - 4 while being wholly absent from 5 - 6 with a flashback to her teenaged self -- and making only a small appearance in 7.

Overall, it works, but it's a shame that for SUPERGIRL's final season, Supergirl was separated from Alex, J'onn, Brainy, Nia, Lena and Kelly for seven episodes.

LEGENDS OF TOMORROW: The Gary revelation that he's an alien is odd; while it fits with Gary's social awkwardness, it's peculiar that he's been bitten and had (human) body parts severed from him, been seen without his image-inducing glasses, been scanned by Gideon regularly -- with no indication that his physiology was anything but human. It's also odd that he hung out with the Legends for so many years before getting around to finally reluctantly kidnapping Sara Lance if that was his mission all along. An explanation is needed.

The Sara/Ava relationship is quite wonderful this year despite them sharing no scenes so far. Ava's indifference to Sara having had a one night stand with Alex Danvers was very funny.

I'm not happy with Zari 2.0. The actress is terrific and I'm glad Tala Ashe gets some range, but I liked the harsh, sardonic, tomboyish Zari 1.0 and spent all of last year waiting for her to come back. Unfortunately, the LEGENDS crew determined that it was too inconvenient to have both Zari 1.0 and 2.0 on the cast as it would force them to film every Zari/Zari scene twice with a full makeup and wardrobe change for the actress (although THE FLASH decided to make the leap with Caitlin and Frost). They further felt that if they had to choose a Zari, it had to be 2.0 because Zari's goal had always been to resurrect her brother and 2.0 would be the version to exist in a timeline where her brother wasn't killed. And I understand that -- but I will be forever waiting for Zari 1.0 to return and the show keeps indicating that Nate is also waiting for Zari 1.0 to return to the show at some point, much in the same way Slider_Quinn21 kept waiting for Kate Kane to return.

BLACK LIGHTNING: I haven't seen it. I will watch the whole thing after the series finale.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

SUPERMAN AND LOIS is very interesting. It doesn't feel like it's part of the ARROWVERSE in terms of aesthetics. Where SUPERGIRL's fortress looks like a Disneyland approximation for children to play in, SUPERMAN AND LOIS' fortress looks like an ice cave. S&L's effects are dense and lavish with Superman's flights showing layers of wind and elements and complex wire rigs to convey a sense of propulsive force; SG's flights are minimalist and spare. SUPERMAN AND LOIS has extensive location filming with new sets and locales every week; SG's stories are bound to studio sets and a small amount of outdoor filming. Apparently, S&L was unable to coordinate any continuity references to SUPERGIRL or THE FLASH or BATWOMAN or BLACK LIGHTNING or LEGENDS due to staggered production schedules; they had no idea what was happening on the other shows while S&L was filming their own.

The choice to show Lois and Clark as older is also proving to be a winner. Instead of a teenaged Clark Kent or Lois and Clark in their twenties, this is Lois and Clark nearing their 50s, middle aged, worn down by time and strain and stress -- but also resolute and certain in what they have to offer the world. Clark tells his son Jordan that he gets angry ALL THE TIME; he just can't act on that anger or he'll scare people and lose their trust. Never have Lois and Clark been portrayed as parents in dire need of several glasses of wine after a particularly traumatic day of parenting.

I admit -- I don't think it makes much sense for Clark Kent to need alcohol. Shouldn't his physiology dismiss alcohol much in the same way Barry can't get drunk without a specially synthesized concoction that doesn't even last more than 20 seconds? But the image of Superman crawling to his wife for comfort after a bruising afternoon in both his home and work life should speak to middle aged men everywhere.

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THE FLASH: Oliver Queen once remarked of Barry Allen, "I don't think that you can go more than nine hours without some sappy motivational speech!" This biting bit of snark from Oliver in ELSEWORLDS has become a strange scripting handicap: "Family Matters" consists of two episodes and nearly every single scene is a "sappy motivational speech" from one character to another to pad out the plot.

... anyway. Tom Cavanagh has left the show, revealing that he'll only be an occasional guest star with this season. Carlos Valdes will also be leaving the show later this year. It's hard to call it "leaving," however; they seem to have signed what the industry calls a 5+1 contract at the beginning, they accepted a one year extension to cover Season 6, then accepted another extension for a short run of episodes for Season 7, but as of Season 6, they had completed their contractual obligations to THE FLASH.

Tom Cavanagh has played pretty much anything and everything he could do with any version of Harrison Wells. Carlos Valdes has played every variation he can find on expressing glee over superheroes. After six years, both are entitled to bow out gracefully. Cavanagh probably should have just been kept as the irritable, caustic Harry from Season 2 onward rather than having him play himself in Season 3 and a French version of Benedict Cumberbatch in Season 5 and a clumsy Indiana Jones knockoff in Season 6. Carlos Valdes has been a strong, enjoyable presence as Cisco, but he's been talking about leaving since Season 5 and it's probably time. Chester is a fine addition to the team, although it'll be odd if Season 8 is the final year and one that lacks the mainstays of Cavanagh and Valdez and be an outlier compared to the previous seven seasons.

I really like seeing everyone on THE FLASH. I like seeing Barry and Iris together. I like seeing Caitlin and Frost. I like Joe and Cecile. It's nice to hang out, and it's a shame their stories aren't more inspiring.

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SUPERMAN AND LOIS: Spoilers
























I have to say, I am delighted to learn the true identity of "Captain Luthor" and see John Henry Irons make his debut in the ARROWVERSE. My main exposure to Irons was in the novelization, THE LIFE AND DEATH OF SUPERMAN, by Roger Stern. It's written like a children's book adapting the 1992 - 1993 comic storyline to prose, but Irons comes through wonderfully as a man haunted by his past life as a weapons designer, working a blue collar job in construction, and stirred by the death of Superman to create a high tech suit of combat armour to try to do the job that Superman once did as a new superhero named Steel.

There was apparently a movie adaptation of STEEL without Superman that I've never seen.

Steel's own comic book, STEEL, had an interesting run from Louise Simonson and an excellent run from Christopher Priest who brought a more comedic take to the character that was abruptly cut short at 52 issues. Steel has frequently shown up as Superman's tech advisor in various issues of SUPERMAN and ACTION COMICS.

Irons also appeared in Darwyn Cooke's NEW FRONTIER comic book which presents all DC superheroes in the historical eras in which they were originally published and dealing with real world history. Cooke presents the original Steel as John Wilson, a 1957 a black superhero who is lynched and killed by the Ku Klux Klan and whose death inspires a young John Henry Irons to become the next Steel.

I'm really happy to see the ARROWVERSE bring this wonderful character into live action again and hope it means great things for John Henry Irons.

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I was pleasantly surprised by that as well.  I thought it was a cool reveal.  I also went back to the female writer who got fired from the show.  One of her complaints was the only POC on the show being the bad guy.  It's clear, now, that Irons isn't the bad guy.

So I don't understand.  Did she not know that or did she protect that secret?  Either way, I'm not sure I 100% believe her story.

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I'm not sure what to say about Nadira Tucker's comments in Huffington Post. https://www.huffpost.com/entry/nadria-t … 75ac3ea433 It's not easy being a woman and black in Hollywood writers rooms. I am troubled that there's only one significant black character on the show, but Wole Parks is an amazing performer who is inhabiting John Henry Irons beautifully and the characterization for him is tender, gentle, caring and brilliant.

As a boy, I admired John Henry Irons for his humility and sense of duty to Superman having saved his life; his commitment to make sure that the second chance Superman gave him would not be wasted; his grief for seeing the weapons he designed put in the hands of street gangs. And Wole Parks and the writers gave John Henry Irons that same heartfelt humanity in SUPERMAN AND LOIS. But it's true that SUPERMAN AND LOIS is way, way, way, way, way too white. I'd say that about most TV shows.

**

Tyler Hoechlin's Superman is very interesting. It's significantly different from the Superman who appeared on SUPERGIRL and very, very different from almost every previous Superman ever. Hoechlin's Superman is angry, frustrated, pent up, anxious, uneasy and is very much capable of losing his temper. Hoechlin's Clark Kent is a bit like Tom Welling; he's an adult farm boy but with the self-assurance Welling had by Season 8 of SMALLVILLE rather than the inept juvenile Welling played from Seasons 1 - 7, but there's an undercurrent of danger and being very tightly wound that Welling never, ever put into Clark Kent.

This is completely opposed to other performers who played the role. George Reeves' Superman was a bit of a stern schoolteacher with a streak of mischief. Christopher Reeve' Superman was glowingly charismatic and warmly respectful. John Haymes Newton's Superboy was oddly indecisive; Gerard Christopher's Superboy followed the Reeve model; and Dean Cain played Clark as a goofy eccentric and Superman as a courtly knight of decency. Tom Welling and Brandon Routh played Clark Kent/Superman with gentleness and Henry Cavill gave the character might and power but with great uncertainty as to how to use it (until he went full Christopher Reeve in JUSTICE LEAGUE).

On SUPERGIRL, Tyler Hoechlin played Superman as Christopher Reeve would: he is the most relaxed, laid back, easygoing Superman ever, happily reconciled to his dual life. He was what Kara someday hoped to be. On SUPERMAN AND LOIS, Superman isn't so surefooted. He's nervous about his inability to truly connect with his sons and is shuffling awkwardly in and out of their lives. His professional life is a disaster; he's lost his day job and is wandering between football fields and farmer's fields cluelessly.

As Superman, he is perpetually and eternally enraged: enraged that the US government is locking up superpowered kids like criminals, that the US army is stockpiling Kryptonite weaponry, that Morgan Edge is creating Kryptonian powers somehow, that his life's work as a journalist has become non-existent -- and he works very hard to contain it, to manage it, to control it and to make sure it doesn't cause him to behave rashly or inappropriately.

This is the first time I've seen Superman show anger in this manner, threatening a soldier with his heat vision and telling him to "stand down," knowing full well that he can never, ever use his heat vision on another person like that, but fully intending to terrify an armed man into lowering his weapon. When Tom Welling threatened to kill a corrupt cop in SMALLVILLE's Season 1 "Rogue," it was a loss of control; when Tyler Hoechlin's Superman becomes angry, it's very controlled but also incredibly frightening.

I'm afraid of Tyler Hoechlin's Superman. He scares me and would terrify me if he didn't have scenes as Clark Kent.

There's a moment when Superman defeats John Henry Irons and Superman is furious that Irons invited him to meet as a friend and attacked him with red sun lights and a terrifying hammer. Superman's kids have hit Irons with a car, but Superman raises a fist, prepared to punch Irons in the face, probably not fatally, but to make Irons feel as hurt as Superman feels -- and Lois has to tell him that it's over and not to strike an enemy who is down. And that's followed up beautifully the next week when Superman releases Irons from custody, clearly fuming over their battle, but having made a decision to try to turn an enemy into a friend even though it's difficult.

Superman:
That anger you felt that made you want to use your powers the way you did tonight -- I have those feelings, too.

When I first showed up in Metropolis as Superman, there was a lot of talk about what the world should do with someone who had powers like mine. And it took me a minute to realize that other people were more afraid of what I could do than I was.

So what I had to do, more than anything, was earn their trust, prove to them that, no matter what, I would never use my powers to hurt them.

Twenty years later, every time I use my powers, that trust is tested. Every time.

Once you break it, it takes a lot longer to heal than a wrist.

I finally see why Superman told Kara that she was stronger than he is. Kara doesn't have to compel herself to be the sunny, goofy Supergirl. She simply is. But Tyler Hoechlin's Superman has to battle himself and his own impulses as a man in order to be Superman.

This is a Superman who struggles to be merciful, gentle, non-violent, present, peaceful and de-escalating -- everything Superman should be -- and Tyler Hoechlin shows that while Superman will never fail, it isn't a natural demeanor or an instinctive reflex. Every morning, he has to consciously wake up and decide to be Superman. It takes effort. It is hard work. This is why Hoechlin's performance as the alternate reality Superman is so disturbing because that capacity for horrific violence is present in the Earth Prime Superman -- it's simply contained and controlled.

1,398 (edited by ireactions 2021-06-17 19:21:44)

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

SUPERMAN AND LOIS, when John Henry Irons and Tag are offscreen -- like they were in this episode -- is a shockingly white show aside from one Asian lady who might as well be an extra. Nadria Tucker has a fair point there.

Spoilers.



















Moving forward, there's a great moment in this week's episode: Edge tells Superman that humanity is an absolute failure on every level and it's hard to disagree. Smallville is a wreck; Clark Kent is unemployed; the US Army considers Superman an enemy when it comes to research and development for weapons. Edge says that Kryptonians should replace humans -- "Make a choice, us or them!" he demands of Superman, and Superman replies, "There is no us or them." And he's right: humans might be doing a terrible job of managing planet Earth. But Kryptonians destroyed their own world too.

In fact, it's arguable that Kryptonians are worse than humans. Humans will merely render planet Earth uninhabitable for themselves. Kryptonians turned their own planet into a goddamn fireball and irradiated the wreckage to the point where the remnants of their world are toxic to any survivors. To present themselves as responsible stewards of nature is utterly delusional.

Superman avoids an impossible battle against what looks like 50 Kryptonians by removing their powers en masse -- and, I assume, gradually, because it looks like the depowered superhumans all end up standing safely on the ground rather than plummeting from miles in the sky and becoming shattered pulps of flesh and bone.

So what we have here is very impressive visual spectacle, a superb presentation of Superman's value system, an excellent non-violent solution that declines to engage in Zack Snyder style fisticuffs, strong characterization with Superman confronting his mother. If we could just get some more characters who aren't white...

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A thought: THE FLASH is having a pretty weak Season 7 on top of a rather weak Season 5 and 6 (aside from CRISIS). And yet... I'm still rather pleased to see everyone together each week and glad to have the chance to say fond farewells when longtime characters like Cisco and Wells step aside. It's probably because I was a fan of SLIDERS -- or rather, I am a survivor of SLIDERS. And a show that manages to keep its people together and maintain healthy relationships with everybody to the point where even departed regulars will come back as guest-stars -- well, it's a show that I'll appreciate even if it's at best mediocre. The only actor permanently alienated from the series is Hartley Sawyer and that was hardly the creators' fault.

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BLACK MASK: "You want to know why you failed as a villain? You can't be bad and have feelings, you can't hate Batwoman and protect her identity, you can't hate your sister and risk your life for her. See, it's confusing; you can't sell a confusing message."

The BATWOMAN finale is extremely strong. Caroline Dries is a SMALLVILLE veteran and seems to have learned a lot about presenting a large scale situation by avoiding all the mistakes SMALLVILLE made in trying to sell citywide situations on a small budget. The chaos through Gotham is shown in effective, economical bursts. The fight scenes are presented in brief sequences showing only the key moments: Black Mask having beaten Alice into the ground off camera; Circe Sionis having Ryan on the ropes; Batwing defeating Tavaroff with one fast blow.

Her dialogue is crisp and clear and the actors clearly find a lot to play in her words. The story has a lot going on, and Dries steers her screenplay through all her plot points effectively and firmly, keeping the focus clearly on Ryan and presenting Kate Kane as a supporting player whose role in the story is on the fringes and no longer at the center. At the same time, Kate's journey does have a crisp moment of focus where she hallucinates reuniting with Beth and this restores her identity and memories.

Fandom has reacted with tremendous anger and dismay over Kate not returning to the role of Batwoman, not even as a second Batwoman next to Ryan. However...

Informant once said that a story needs to go where the events and incidents are pushing it, not where the writer wants the story to go. As much as I would have liked Wallis Day to take center stage as Kate Kane and Batwoman -- I have to say it simply wouldn't have worked for me to see that happen at the end of this episode for a variety of reasons.

The first is that in-story, Kate doesn't have Kate Kane's face. Kate has the face of a cosmetics model / formerly incarcerated lunatic / crime boss accomplice / crime family scion. Kate has spent most of the season buried under the false identity of another woman when she was on camera and being brutally tortured and living with hideous burns that seared off her tattoos when she was off camera.

I simply don't believe that Kate Kane, having come through all that, is in the psychological shape to resume the role of Batwoman especially when a madman kidnapped her and took away her memories, her face and even her voice -- much in the same way Matt Murdock was in no condition to be the cool, self-assured Daredevil again after the events of DEFENDERS.

The other problem is that Kate resuming her role as Batwoman -- even as a second Batwoman next to Ryan -- would not have worked for me at this stage. It would be declaring that Kate is back, that Wallis Day is playing Ruby Rose's Kate Kane -- and that simply isn't the case.

Wallis Day's performance just isn't connecting for me as the character I know as Kate Kane. In her scene in the Wayne Tower office with Mary and Luke, she's tactile and friendly, grinning warmly at her sister and her tech support, making physical contact, hugging Luke with affection -- this simply is not the Kate Kane we met in Season 1. Wallis Day is a very different actress. Where Ruby Rose rebuffed connection and held herself at a distance and hugged others reluctantly and held herself at a cautious remove, Wallis Day is in everyone's personal space. Ruby Rose's physicality was distant even when she was conveying goodwill.

Wallis Day's a good actress. Wallis Day could play Kate Kane. But Wallis Day can't play Ruby Rose's Kate Kane.

The differences in behaviour make a degree of sense; Kate is damaged, Kate is trying to reconnect, Kate is trying to make the most of her limited time with her friends before she steps away. But I simply can't accept Wallis Day's Kate Kane as the end result of Ruby Rose's Kate Kane and I can't accept her as Ruby Rose's Batwoman.

I think that sending Kate offscreen for awhile is a good move; it allows the character to address these obvious traumas and can justify her being recovered and healed in a future return should there be one. It allows Wallis Day to potentially return and be her own version of Kate Kane. But right now, the story would have her be Ruby Rose's Kate Kane if she stayed and it just doesn't work for me visually.

I'm sad to lose Kate, but the truth is that we lost Kate once Ruby Rose left the show and Wallis Day is really here to cauterize that wound, to bandage it, and to let it heal out of sight for a time. I hope we'll see her again in Season 3, but for now, I accept that Ryan Wilder is Batwoman.

1,401 (edited by Slider_Quinn21 2021-07-05 12:40:34)

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Been a while so here's a recap of my Arrowverse experience:

Batwoman - I thought the show handled a really tough situation really well.  I thought the Kate stuff was bungled a little bit, but it's nice that she didn't truly die in a plane crash essentially offscreen.  Ruby Rose is gone but Kate isn't.  I liked that she's okay.  And I guess they'll comingle the "what happened to Bruce" story with whatever Kate is doing.  I think that's fine, but with Bruce essentially showing up twice on the show already....what are the rules?  Can Bruce show up but not Batman?  Can Bruce only show up in images and in dreams but they can use "his" face on other characters?  Or are there no rules and Batman can show up?

The Flash - The show is fine.  I thought Ralph's write-out was weird and having Sue back is also weird.  I thought Cisco's exit was sweet but I feel like the show will really miss him.  I wish they'd moved Cisco to Legends at some point.  I feel like the cast feels distant, though.  I don't think Team Flash feels as close to each other, if that makes any sense.  It kinda feels like when Oliver put together a new Team Arrow and I didn't feel an attachment to any of them.  They were just guest stars in my head.  I don't know what the solution is.  The show has felt like it's been on fumes for such a long time.  I really don't know what I'd even do with it if I was hired as the showrunner.  I think it's too late to do anything.

Although maybe this...which I just thought of...Flash and the Canaries.  Maybe Bart Allen comes back and takes Barry to the future where he fights along Mia and the Canaries.  Essentially use Barry as an instrument to explore the stories they wanted to tell on Green Arrow and the Canaries.  It's not the same but it'd definitely mix things up.  And maybe use that as a way to tell the legacy of Barry and Oliver before the Arrowverse goes away.

Superman and Lois - I think the show is fantastic.  Really well done and compelling.  I wish it felt like part of the Arrowverse, even though part of it's appeal is that it doesn't.  I thought maybe the flashback episode would confirm some of the weird stuff with Clark and Lois' one kid becoming twins, but they didn't.  I know Diggle is showing up but I wonder if it should stay in its own universe now.

Legends of Tomorrow - This show is off the wall bonkers.  I also wish that show would feel more connected, but I kinda love that it just does its own thing.  The characters break the fourth wall, they do silly things, and the theme song at the beginning is insane.  The stuff with Gary being an alien doesn't work at all, but it's great that they just went for it.

All in all, I still think the universe has some life in it.  I'm excited for the other Diggle episodes, although from interviews, it doesn't sound like it's going to explore the Green Lantern stuff too much.  I hope that was a misdirect - it'd be a shame to have these episodes and not have it reach some sort of fun conclusion - even if it's too expensive to show him in costume.

Although I still want an anthology series before it dies.  Let's revisit characters, tell fun stories, introduce characters we'd never see otherwise.  Come on CW, make it happen.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I think the problem with THE FLASH in Season 7 is the same problem as S5 and S6: it's too slow. In Seasons 1 - 4, THE FLASH would complete in six episodes what other shows would take an entire season to do: powers were learned, secrets were revealed, identities were exposed, hidden agendas were unveilled. Season 5, however, had a new showrunner and THE FLASH spent an entire season with Barry being unable to stop one guy with a magic knife. Season 6 did something neat: it split the season into two arcs. However, the individual scripts were still extremely slow. Characters wander around; they hesitate from taking action, filibustering until a commercial break, then filibustering again until somebody gives somebody else a sappy emotional speech.

The writers are struggling to write for a speedster because a speedster demands that each episode have at least three situations that can only be solved with clever application of superspeed and the current team can come up with about ten situations per season. Superspeed is extremely hard to write and the one person who was quite good at it was also crazy abusive and rightly fired off the show and blacklisted from the industry.

I think THE FLASH needs a certain mad sci-fi inventiveness at the helm, but all the writers I can think of would not be considered by the CW or WB because they don't have any TV experience.

**

BATWOMAN is in a difficult position with its fans. After Ruby Rose quit the show, the fans cried for Wallis Day, but the showrunners felt that swapping Rose for Day would be visually nonsensical and instead found a new character to wear the Batwoman costume. A few episodes into Season 2, they decided that they would recast Rose's role after all but offer an explanation for why the face was different. But even after casting Wallis Day, BATWOMAN delayed and prevaricated: she was wearing a facial covering in a cameo and then absent for several episodes, then she was wearing a wooden mask, then she had her face restored but altered to look like Wallis Day instead of Ruby Rose, then she was possessed by Circe Sionis.

It reminded me a bit of what Slider_Quinn21 once said about HEROES where Bryan Fuller delayed until nearly the end of Season 1 before having Peter and Sylar fight and then it was just flashing lights with all the action off-camera -- a warning that there wasn't really much content there with two invincible beings fighting to a stalemate.

BATWOMAN delayed having Wallis Day play Kate Kane until the Season 2 finale -- and having seen Day play the role, I can see why. The story claims that Kate is the same person as Ruby Rose but with Wallis Day's face, but Day's performance is simply wrong. Day could be a great Kate Kane, but she can't play Ruby Rose's Kate Kane. Ruby Rose's Kate was distant, troubled, secretive, withdrawn. She was uncomfortable making eye contact with Mary. She was guarded with Luke, trusting him fully as an ally but hesitant to think of him as a friend and determined to make him subordinate when Luke considered himself her boss.

In contrast, Wallis Day's Kate Kane laughs with Luke and winks at him. She unreservedly hugs Mary and touches her face sweetly. She warmly shakes Ryan Wilder's hand. This is not Ruby Rose's Kate Kane. This is a much more tactile, friendly, open, trusting presence than Ruby was at her warmest.

I suspect that BATWOMAN's writers have never had a firm grasp on Ruby Rose's Kate Kane. As originally scripted, judging from the audition pages, Kate Kane was supposed to be a sophisticated socialite, a smooth-talking high society elite who felt she didn't belong anywhere but in the US Army which had rejected her. Rose auditioned for the role and ignored Kate's scripted sauveness, making Kate Kane an angry punk girl, a seething leather-clad rocker with two angry fists and a glowering scowl as her default expression. The BATWOMAN writers seemed content to write their Kate and let Rose interpret the scripts as she saw fit.

Wallis Day's Kate seems to be the originally scripted version of Kate without Ruby Rose rewriting her dialogue and reinterpreting the words, and I recognize this as a variation on the comic book version of Kate Kane. I do not recognize it as the Ruby Rose version of Kate Kane. And I think the BATWOMAN writers also do not recognize this version of Kate Kane, don't know what to do with this version of Kate Kane -- so they sent her away on some offscreen quest.

I don't know if Wallis Day will return. If Kate could be offscreen for half a season and then come back, then Wallis' version of Kate could work as Kate having changed after her travels. But Day recently retweeted a podcast titled, "How BATWOMAN Failed Kate Kane." This would indicate that Day is not contracted for Season 3, not happy that she isn't contracted for Season 3, and not concerned about upsetting BATWOMAN's writers and showrunner with her retweet because she doesn't believe there will ever be an offer for Season 3.

I'm sad about that. But the version of Kate Kane that Ruby Rose played is gone, has been since Rose left the show, and she can never come back. Wallis Day may have been a fan favourite, but when I saw her playing Ruby Rose's Kate Kane onscreen -- fairly or unfairly, she wasn't Ruby Rose's Kate Kane, she wasn't Wallis Day's Kate Kane. She was Ruby Rose's body double at best. It was the equivalent of body double Maria Stanton playing Wade in "Requiem"; it is an obvious mirage and utterly unconvincing.

Wallis Day auditioned to play Ryan Wilder. She was up for being the lead of BATWOMAN's second season and the writers could have brought her in as Kate Kane right away. They must have considered it. And it's clear to me why BATWOMAN's creators decided to bring in a new character instead and it's clear to me why they delayed having Day play Kate for as long as possible. They knew it wouldn't be the same.

I suspect that the situation with Bruce Wayne is that BATWOMAN's team can request clearance to use the character and their requests have been granted twice a season: once for CRISIS, once to use an imposter Bruce at the end of Season 1, once to wrap up the Hush arc and once for a dream sequence.

**

LEGENDS has been super-fun. SUPERMAN & LOIS is like a movie.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

ireactions wrote:

I suspect that the situation with Bruce Wayne is that BATWOMAN's team can request clearance to use the character and their requests have been granted twice a season: once for CRISIS, once to use an imposter Bruce at the end of Season 1, once to wrap up the Hush arc and once for a dream sequence.

It's strange, though.  Because its obvious that Smallville had the full Bat Embargo.  They could use similar characters (Adam Knight, Andrea Rojas, etc.) but never even mention the genuine article.

Arrow seemed to be in a similar place.  I recently saw a supercut of all the Batman references in the Arrowverse, and they were all pretty vague until Batwoman showed up.  Most of the references were actually from Supergirl ("Clark's friend") but even then it was super vague.  Now they have Bruce Wayne cast but can't use him.  Titans gets to cast him and use him but only as Bruce Wayne and a stuntman out of focus can represent Batman.  Gotham got to use the whole gamut and even got to feature Bruce in costume briefly.

I just wonder what changed and how much.  I assume if the Arrowverse got the rights to use Batman, they would.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

There was a period where Geoff Johns, producer on the Arrowverse shows, was also DC's Chief Creative Officer and the head of the Warner Bros. division for DC films. You'll recall that on ARROW, the Suicide Squad and a teased Harley Quinn appearance were abruptly curtailed along with Deadshot's character. However, Johns was later promoted to running DC films in 2016 at which point ARROW's showrunner Marc Guggenheim directly contacted Johns and requested permission to use Deadshot in a Season 5 episode and Johns granted the request.

It's likely Johns who loosened the chains to allow more use of Batman properties. At this point, Johns has been dismissed from the DC film division due to the crash and burn of JUSTICE LEAGUE. However, he's still employed as a producer on individual shows and individual movies and likely still has a degree of influence to encourage letting BATWOMAN use Bruce Wayne -- although he no longer has the power to approve licensing requests.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

That makes sense.

I hope that the Diggle arc is going somewhere and not a big tease.  If he's going to be a Green Lantern, it's possible that Superman & Lois' budget would allow for that to happen.  Otherwise, I'm not entirely sure what Diggle would be doing in Smallville.  It seems like maybe the headaches are connected to not accepting the ring, and maybe he's finally on that path.  But we'll see.  It's a fun story and I'm sure they can tell it without blowing the budget on too much.  A practical suit and a glowing ring would probably work, but Superman and Supergirl might have better special effects to make it work since they already have flying characters.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Spoilers for Superman & Lois

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So the Diggle arc is so far a big tease.  It's nice to have John back, and its good that Ramsey is getting some work.  But most of these stories could be anyone.  Diggle showing up on Legends was an easter egg more than anything.  Him showing up on Batwoman was a cameo at best.  I think his story on Flash was good and it was nice to see him suit up again, but his guest spot on Superman and Lois was nothing.  He doesn't seem to be in any different place than he was after Flash.

Maybe the Supergirl appearance will tie everything together, but I don't know if we have any more information than we had before.  I was hoping the extra budget from Superman & Lois could allow them to do *something* but I guess not.

At this point, I assume we'll finish this year with just as much info as we had before the year started.  John found something.  He has to decide what to do.  Blah blah blah.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Golly! I'm actually behind SUPERMAN AND LOIS. I'm hoping to catch up at the end of this week.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Just watched SUPERMAN AND LOIS. I totally agree with Slider_Quinn21 that Diggle didn't add anything to the story nor did the story add anything to Diggle. David Ramsey is a bottomless well of warmth, charisma, humanity and decency and he makes a meal out of the morsel he's given, having Diggle remind John Henry Irons that he has a choice in whether or not to kill Superman and that it's a choice he can make in the moment, not at the outset.

Aside from that, this episode strikes me as a thinly veiled rebuke, repudiation and rejection of MAN OF STEEL, BATMAN VS. SUPERMAN and Zack Snyder's plans for the JUSTICE LEAGUE sequels. Lois declares that having an armoured human fight Superman or kill Superman is totally pointless; taking down one Kryptonian isn't going to matter if there's an army of superpowered beings planning to take over the Earth.

The possessed Superman hears Lois through the Steel armour's communications system and hesitates; rather than battling on just to win a fight and establish his superiority in combat, Superman pleads for John Henry Irons to kill him to save the world and John Henry Irons pleads for Superman to live and save his family. An enemy becomes an ally; an antagonist becomes a friend and nobody had to kill anyone.

In fact, killing anyone would have been self-defeating: killing a Zod-possessed Superman would have meant no more weapons against Tal-Rho. Killing Tal-Rho would have prevented Superman and John Henry and the Department of Defence from learning of his plans and assets around Earth. Force and violence aren't solutions in themselves; Superman and John Henry need to work together to learn how to solve the problem. This is what superheroes are for. SUPERMAN AND LOIS is wonderful.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Superman and Lois is wonderful.  The characters are likeable with real problems that are treated maturely.  It still doesn't feel like a part of the Arrowverse, maybe because of this.  I almost want them to confirm that the show isn't in the same universe, although the Diggle cameo sorta messes with that.

I liked the Flash finale.  I think Bart and Nora brought some interesting dynamics, and the (spoiler) cameo at the end to help Barry was cool.  I hear they're going to use the Flash as their big crossover next year, and I think that would help keep the show relevant.  I do think it needs to wrap up, though.  It's running out of steam, and I'd rather spin the show off as something else if the network wants to continue with Gustin and Patton.  See my Flash and the Canaries idea.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I liked the FLASH finale up to a point -- that point being when the Flash and the Reverse Flash and Godspeed began fighting with lightsabers.

...

I'm all for repurposing and drawing on other people's ideas for inspirations -- such as in one story where I copied Chris Chibnall's mystery cubes from the DOCTOR WHO story "The Power of Three" and presented the Doomsday Clocks, chronometers counting down to doomsday. But the image of people fighting with laser swords is so firmly, fundamentally identified with STAR WARS that I think it's absurd to try to co-opt it or present it in a way that isn't very obvious and clumsy in being a ripoff. SMALLVILLE often ran into similar problems in Seasons 8 : they would devote an episode to pastiching a movie and there were many in each season: SAW, RESIDENT EVIL, CLOVERFIELD, SAW again, THE MATRIX, SPARTACUS, THE HANGOVER -- but there was at least a shift into that specific genre: the horror-trap movie, the zombie film, found footage, cyberpunk, gladiator trials, bachelor parties.

When Barry and Thawne and Godspeed become Jedi Knights, it doesn't feel like a homage to a genre. It's simply lifting the iconography from some other work instead of having THE FLASH create its own. There was no rationale -- none -- for why Barry has previously thrown lightning but now holds it in a solidified form in his hands or why one end of the energy is harmful but the end of which Barry holds it is harmless.

Bart and Nora were fun, the show is still being written as a series of characters filibustering with whiny emotional issues until somebody gives them a sappy motivational speech. It's nice that unlike SLIDERS, THE FLASH bid farewell to mainstays Carlos Valdez and Tom Cavanagh but both are happy to return for a few episodes a season and that good relationship has been maintained. But it's clear to me that THE FLASH is simply existing to fill a timeslot at this stage.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

ireactions wrote:

When Barry and Thawne and Godspeed become Jedi Knights, it doesn't feel like a homage to a genre. It's simply lifting the iconography from some other work instead of having THE FLASH create its own. There was no rationale -- none -- for why Barry has previously thrown lightning but now holds it in a solidified form in his hands or why one end of the energy is harmful but the end of which Barry holds it is harmless.

I had the same thought.  In fact, what was weird was that it seemed like Godspeed had harnessed a new power.  He brought out all this lightning and then harnessed it into what I thought was a spear.  And he'd use that spear to hurl at people - Barry's lightning but more controlled or more dangerous or more violent.

I thought it was supposed to be a sign that Godspeed was faster or stronger or whatever.

Then Barry just does it.  He doesn't struggle or talk it through with anyone.  He just does it.

I thought that was super weird.  So Barry has been able to do that the whole time and just didn't?  Was this some sort of power that all speedsters have that just no one has ever used?  But I did like the idea that Barry brought his nemesis to save his son from his son's nemesis.  I thought that was cool.

Overall, I thought this season was a huge mess.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I didn't think THE FLASH was a mess this year, but it also wasn't very successful. Following up on Season 6's unfinished arcs in three episodes (I think) was difficult for me; I couldn't remember who any of these people were. It was also laughably awkward to have Ralph make a final appearance with a bag over his head.

Then Season 7 launched into an intriguing arc: Barry having created new superhumans and the Speed Force manifesting as his mother -- except the characters all started referring to the new superhumans as Barry and Iris' children and this insistence on a familial bond was clumsy, awkward and unearned. But I understand that they were trying to get into the themes of family even though they did so with new characters who were effectively strangers.

The Speed Force as a threat -- that's a great idea, but hopelessly muddled by the bizarre need for these adults we'd never seen much of to address Barry and Iris as "Dad" and "Mom."

There was a bizarre two episodes where Barry was calling out to Iris and never hearing back from her because Candice Patton took two episodes off to see family and had to re-quarantine -- except the show did something clever by actually having Iris absent without Barry's knowledge. That was very clever and funny. Then we come to a finale where Godspeed is an attempt to have another speedster villain. But Thawne was terrifying as Barry's mentor who knew Barry better than Barry knew himself. Zoom was terrifying because of his sadism and cruelty and ability to plant himself on the team. Savitar was somewhat frightening in being "the future Flash."

But Godspeed was just a booming voice, a neat costume -- and ultimately not that frightening because Godspeed spent more time fighting other Godspeeds than menacing the team. It was great to see Nora and Bart. The casting for Bart Allen was superb. Making Bart the son of Barry Allen as opposed to a distant descendant was exactly the right change of simplicity that I would expect for a TV show.

Ultimately, Season 7, like everything since the middle of Season 4, lacks a certain craft and finesse. It's very well-intentioned, but the skill is not there. I didn't mind Season 7, but it was rather uninspired.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Well when I say it was a mess, it just didn't feel like it amounted to anything.  I know they're doing a "graphic novel" approach where they tell multiple small stories, but I don't know if I could tell you much about what the season represented.  What stories they were trying to tell.  What we learned about the characters.

They had an unfair start because the mirror arc had to be awkwardly resolved, both because I'm sure they didn't have the availability of the relevant actors but because there wasn't much story left.  But then they have that horrible CGI for Fuerza with an evil Speed Force but what did that really accomplish?  Then I thought the Godspeed storyline was just handled so awkwardly, especially as a villain that was teased two seasons ago?

I think, at the end of the day, I didn't care about Chester as much as Cisco.  I don't really care about some of the new characters, and as much as Ralph needed to go, they didn't replace him either.  It would've been nice to introduce another hero like Ralph from the deep bench of DC heroes.  Captain Atom?  Booster Gold?  Static?  I'm sure there are tons of people that they could've brought in, but maybe Covid killed that.

It wasn't bad.  I enjoyed watching each week, but I just don't know what they're accomplishing.  It feels like the middle years of Supernatural where the show just felt like it was spinning its wheels.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Yeah, I totally agree with you on FLASH. That said -- I really liked SUPERNATURAL even in the middle years. Yes, the show was in a holding pattern. But I would argue that SUPERNATURAL made Sam and Dean so vivid and distinct and their relationship so powerful that just spending more time with them was worth it. THE FLASH has not defined its characters and their relationships with nearly the same depth that SUPERNATURAL gave Sam and Dean. THE FLASH's relationships are extremely thin: someone has to do something obvious and immediate but hesitates and prevaricates until someone else offers a sappy motivational speech. In contrast, Sam and Dean have a complex relationship that existed long before the show even started.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I really enjoyed the new season of Legends, even though it keeps feeling less and less a part of the arrowverse.  We're starting to run out of characters that have ever appeared on any of the other shows, right?  With the Legends skipping crossovers and their characters usually only appearing in their own episode when they do, is Sara (now that John and Mick are gone) the only one who's ever actually appeared on an actual episode outside of any of the other Arrowverse shows?  Nate is a maybe, but I could see him only appearing in the Legends episode of any crossover.

Not that it's a big deal. The show is still fun in a crazy way, and it's still entertaining.  It's just weird that it seemingly makes no effort to be a part of the universe anymore.

Stargirl is still fun and I can't really tell the difference from the move to the CW.

Supergirl is fine.  I think it's good that it's ending this season - I think it's run out of gas like Flash or Arrow did.

***********

I'm enjoying Titans season 3, and I'm glad it's week to week.  One thing that's kind of weird....I'm curious how Barbara is commissioner.  The actress is 37 so I have to assume that Barbara is also about that age (and it fits with the flashbacks we've seen).  In the flashbacks, Barbara is committing crimes for the fun of it and certainly not a cop.  And that's before she's ever Batgirl.  Even if she has a truncated role as Batgirl, when did she ever have time to get the police experience to be *commissioner* of a city like Gotham?

I realize her dad had the job, but I figure even that would not be nearly enough to get someone with minimal experience as the commissioner of a major city, even if she's a super-genius and even if her dad was Jim Gordon.

Outside of the sight gag of saying "Commissioner Gordon" and then it being Barb, her role seems irrelevant to the plot so far.  I would've preferred if she was just a beat cop or a detective.  Her being commissioner by Terry McGinnis' time makes sense, but her being commissioner with no experience at 37 seems crazy even in this universe.

This has been my annual "SQ21 destroys a really small continuity error on Titans"

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

So we had the end of the Diggle arc across the shows.  Spoilers for all those episodes:

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So....what was that.  I get that David Ramsey was available, and it was easy to get a deal to get him on board.  But his character is essentially in the same place it was when Arrow ended.  Or maybe even a bit less clear. 

One episode was just one of Diggle's relatives so that one doesn't really count.  But the other episodes didn't accomplish much.  They established that Diggle is having headaches - I guess turning down the ring gave him headaches.  So he bounces from hero's city to hero's city trying to figure out these headaches and never did.  The Batwoman episode seemed like an intro.  The Flash episode moved the plot along a little but seemed more like a tease of things to come.  The Superman and Lois one was nothing.  I had hopes that, since Superman probably knows at least one Green Lantern, that might be where he talks about it.  And the budget is higher so they could maybe afford to do some Green Lantern CG.

And when nothing happened, I thought maybe they were saving it for Supergirl.  They have a) a bunch of characters that can fly and b) a bunch of characters that would probably know of the Green Lanterns.

And although we got Diggle explaining that he turned it down because he didn't want to leave his family, it ends with him deciding to do it?  All without really discussing it with anyone?

Maybe they aren't even allowed to say Green Lantern.  And maybe they're hoping that Diggle can appear on the Green Lantern show or something.  But, man, this was something I was excited about and I don't think they did much with it.  He wasn't bad, but I was just thinking they might spend more time with Diggle and moving his plot along.

1,417 (edited by Slider_Quinn21 2021-10-28 07:36:36)

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I don't know if linking Batwoman even more to Batman is the smartest idea.  I get that it probably brings viewers, but I think it brings up so many more questions.  Are most of Batman's rogues gallery dead?  Did Batman kill them?  Is that why he left?  And, again, what's Bruce doing?  This is his mess.  It made some sense when his cousin was cleaning it up, but Bruce has no connection to Ryan.

Also, I get that putting Ryan as "Acting CEO" of Wayne makes some narrative sense, but I don't understand how that would even be allowed.  I assumed Wayne was either completely sold off or being run by someone else.  Ryan doesn't even have on paper experience, and I don't know if having her pretend to be a CEO even makes sense as a plan.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I apologize, I am so behind on the Arrowverse right now; I am three episodes behind on SUPERGIRL. I will catch up to BATWOMAN this weekend if working on Saturday for a Project doesn't get in the way.

*sigh* Really letting our community down here.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Hahaha it's all good.

I thought the Legends 100th episode was a lot of fun.

The Supergirl season is getting a lot of flack online because Kara's been sidelined.  I don't usually look into this stuff or care, but I clicked on some tweets.  I do think that Kara hasn't had a ton to do in the last few seasons.  No real love interest (I don't know the purpose of William), no real arc.  She lives through the enjoyment of others.  So I think that's true.  There was also a complaint that Kara is sidelined so that the men on the show get storylines.  I didn't understand that at all.  J'onn hasn't had a real storyline this year (not since his father's arc ended - not much with M'gann recently).  Brainy has some stuff with Nia, but he hasn't had an arc since he betrayed the group.  I agree that William is a fairly useless character, but he's barely a character.

So I don't get that.  I feel like Alex, Kelly, and Nia are the main characters on the show sometimes.

Stargirl has been good.  I don't think you can really notice the move from DC Universe to CW.  I like it, but I don't have much to say.

****************

I do miss the crossovers.  Not just the main one, but I miss the minor ones too.  Hopefully, post-pandemic, they can do minor ones.  It was fun when Felicity would show up on Flash or Cisco would show up on Arrow.  I think it'd be fun to have more stuff like that.  How would Luke react to working with Superman or Flash?  What would Jonathan and Jordan think about being on the Waverider?  I think putting Superman on Batwoman would be a little problematic, but I'd be interested in hearing about Clark's views on Bruce.

I don't know if they've moved beyond that stuff, but I currently find the Arrowverse universe more interesting than any individual show.  I'm looking forward to the Flash premiere crossover event.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

*sigh* I'm only on Episode 14 of SUPERGIRL this year. Still three behind. In terms of Kara getting sidelined -- she was sidelined for the first handful of Season 6 episodes, but there was no way around that, the actress was on maternity leave.

However...

I feel like COVID and Melissa Benoist's unavailability and this being the final season has hit the writing staff hard and they didn't cope well with a difficult situation. Zor-El's decision to combat climate change in one episode should have been a fascinating and twisted moral conundrum of the superfriends potentially having to fight the person trying to save the planet -- but the show backed off and had Zor-El say he was having a nervous breakdown and gave the nonsensical message that climate change is a top priority but to do anything about it would be going too far.

This is yet another situation where SUPERGIRL desperately wants to be relevant and confront real world situations and current events but wants to get in and out in one episode and get back to capes and tights next week and doesn't want to say too much of anything. Previous examples include the gun control episode where non lethal armanents are chosen over handguns except non lethal gear in SUPERGIRL's world tends to be much more reliable than on our planet. And that episode of ARROW which Slider_Quinn21 hilariously described "The one where Wild Dog gives up his child for adoption and declares himself an unfit father because he spilled a bowl of soup."

And yet, paradoxically -- Supergirl fighting a fifth dimensional imp for her final season isn't really doing it for me either because SUPERGIRL is a social justice show. That label may be viewed as an insult by those who have mercifully left us and gone to Parler, but I see it as a compliment. I'm a pretty social justice-invested person myself, so it's possible that SUPERGIRL really should have committed to Zor-El as a Season 6 antagonist (if not villain); Zor-El becomes a terrorist targeting all causes of climate change and the superfriends have to figure out whether to help him or stop him.

I quite enjoyed the episode where Supergirl has to fight both explosives and urban sprawl destroying low income housing. That was really strong, as was the return of Mxyzptlk. But then we get another social justice hour that was once again oddly artless with Kelly Olsen giving nonsensical monologues about how all her white friends have blindspots and aren't hearing her and aren't paying attention to her and laying out how white people need to respond to black outrage and black priorities. I don't disagree with anything that actress-turned-screenwriter Azie Tesfai says in her story, but I find it really clumsy for Tesfai to put her public service announcement into her own character's dialogue for Tesfai to deliver on camera.

There is a certain craft and skill to writing dialogue and Tesfai either doesn't understand it or does a very convincing impression of someone who doesn't. There is a stilted unnaturalness to Kelly's every conversation in the episode being her delivering a lecture on white privilege; there's no sense of an actual conversation or argument or any natural flow of human interaction or conflict; it's Kelly giving a lecture on white fragility. This dialogue would be terrific if delivered by Tesfai at a public speech or workshop on being more sensitive to people of colour.

These words would be perfect if performed in a one-woman show onstage. But when put in a TV conversation between characters, it exposes the artifice of TV conversations in the first place; it becomes a single person monologue that fumbles to give the other characters a reason to be in the season. It's important to address how white people ignore or fail to notice black concerns and crimes on blacks being ignored, but a TV episode needs to show it rather than have Tesfai write her character as describing it in dialogue; it's a visual medium, not an audio drama.

Lena being a magical witch is an odd choice for a character who has been previously defined as a methodical and at times ruthless scientist. It's a bit like handing Quinn a magic sword and having him fight a dragon; it's a very strange direction that doesn't tap into the character's strengths.

I think William is effective at representing the average National City person and that his role as an embedded reporter fulfills that role really well.

Anyway. I think that in all the struggle to try to figure out how to make SUPERGIRL episodes without getting anyone sick; to make episodes without extras; to make episodes of SUPERGIRL without Supergirl being available -- well, there seems to be less energy available for figuring out what these episodes are even about.

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Ruby Rose is now saying on social media that she was fired off BATWOMAN due to her injuries; that production refused to accommodate her need for recovery time after she broke her neck and had surgery to prevent paralysis. She was forced to wear the costume even though it was straining her neck, she was pressured into filming without having fully healed, she was characterized as lazy and irritable for being in pain.

I absolutely believe her. CW and before it, WB -- and TV and film in general -- have a shocking lack of concern for worker safety and unions struggle to keep their workers from dying on the job. SMALLVILLE's production refused to hire drivers for their lead actors; Tom Welling was driving an hour a day to set, working 18 hours, then expected to drive himself home. KJ Apa got in a car accident driving home from the set of RIVERDALE because the studio was too cheap to hire him a driver after a 16 hour day. This studio and these producers clearly have no qualms about pressuring their lead actors into unsafe work and think that their actors will tolerate anything to stay on a show on which they could conceivably retire (if they survive to the end of it).

I hope that Ruby Rose's characterizations of Caroline Dries, Peter Roth, Dougray Scott, Greg Berlanti and Camrus Johnson are due to misconstruing their actions or remarks. Peter Roth is no friend of ours; he fired John Rhys Davies off SLIDERS, although I've heard that Davies drunkenly insulted and verbally abused Roth's wife at a party and Roth may have been justified in not wanting John on any of his shows. Rose says Roth had her investigated to dig up reasons to justify firing her off BATWOMAN.

Rose says Dries wanted BATWOMAN to keep filming through the pandemic with no regard for safety; it's possible Dries merely wanted to film distant and distanced shots. Rose says Berlanti... actually, I'm not sure what she was saying about him. Rose says that Camrus Johnson had no sympathy for her despite her injuries; perhaps he spoke poorly or was reserved. Rose says that Dougray Scott abused female staffers and shouted at them; it's possible she saw him yelling to defend someone. I'm not calling her a liar, but it's only her perspective. We should believe her experiences but be cautious about her characterizations. Out of fairness to them, we shouldn't take her portrayals of these people as the absolute truth, but it's certainly possible that these people are all the sweatshop managers and abusers that Rose portrays them to be, especially after Andrew Kreisberg.

Andrew Kreisberg was fired off all Arrowverse shows for repeated, unrepentant sexual harassment. Berlanti claims that he didn't know Kreisberg was doing this, that no one reported it to him for a long time, that he was shocked when someone finally did, and that he started and complied fully with an investigation and saw to it that Kreisberg was suspended. Then fired. Then blacklisted. Berlanti also promised that he would never allow his employees to think of himself as distant and unreachable again.

Some have claimed Berlanti was fully aware of Kreisberg's behaviour but allowed it until it hit it was reported at which point Berlanti feigned ignorance while starting an official investigation. I hope that's not true.

Warner Bros. says Rose was fired for being unprofessional and crew members have described Rose as domineering, late, unrehearsed and unprepared -- but all that could be true and it would still be wrong to force her to wear a neck straining suit days after surgery or to not give her a leave of absence to recover from her procedure.

Superhero and teen shows since SMALLVILLE have had this attitude that the actors are responsible for their own safety and well-being; that it's not the studio's job to drive them to the set or to look after their health or to advocate for their safety; they would withhold a few thousand dollars rather than get KJ Apa a driver and if KJ Apa should die driving himself home, the studio has presumably insured for this eventuality and would come out slightly ahead. Ruby Rose could be the worst person in the world and it would still be wrong to treat her this way.

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ireactions wrote:

I feel like COVID and Melissa Benoist's unavailability and this being the final season has hit the writing staff hard and they didn't cope well with a difficult situation.

I think that's fair.  But at the same time, outside of those episodes, what is Kara's overall arc?  What does she learn?  What does she struggle with?  What does she want in life?  I feel like I could answer those questions better with most of the characters on the show before I could with Kara.  She does seem like she's just kinda there at times. 

Have we had any scenes with Kara in her apartment?  I feel like we're at Kelly and Alex's apartment a lot these days.  She got engaged and adopted a kid and went through some major character changes.  Kara hasn't done much of that.  And it doesn't have to all be about love interests and moving on in life.  Kara doesn't need a boyfriend to experience growth, but she does need something.  All she's done in the last couple episodes is switch to pants.

I think CW fans are a bit toxic, and I think a lot of their outrage has to do with (POTENTIAL SPOILER FROM THE SERIES FINALE) but when I think about it, Kara doesn't seem like the main character in Supergirl.

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Caught up with SUPERGIRL.

I'd agree that Kara, upon her return, isn't really the main character anymore. But... I don't think there's anything wrong with giving her an episode of focus but largely making the show about the superfriends and Kara as the core but not necessarily the lead anymore. It wouldn't be my personal choice, but I watch a lot of shows that branch out to an ensemble with only key episodes focused on the lead and it's as valid here as it is on BLINDSPOT or MOM or THE BIG BANG THEORY. That said, plenty of people dislike those shows for the shift in focus and it's reasonable to do so.

I am not up to speed on spoilers, but I assume that the finale will have Chris Wood return to play Mon-El and that he and Kara will be romantically restored. I'm guessing this will offend those who want Lena and Kara to be a couple. As fond as I am of Supercorp, I don't feel a show can ever allow fandom to dictate storytelling; if that's not where the showrunners want to take it and if they don't feel that making Kara bisexual is something they can do within their licensing agreement with DC Comics/Warner Bros. or something they can explore or portray with sufficient sensitivity or something they can introduce to the character at this stage -- well, it's their call and fans are free to dislike it and not watch it.

If SUPERGIRL were an original series as opposed to a pre-existing intellectual property, the creators might have more freedom, but making Kara Danvers bisexual undoubtedly opens a lot of bureaucratic difficulties that many showrunners might prefer to sidestep in favour of having an original character like Alex Danvers be a member of the LGBTQA community. Supergirl is ultimately a character owned by a regressive, repressive, conservative corporation.

I'd like to have seen Supercorp, but I never expected it before and I'm not counting on it now and I've accepted that as part of watching SUPERGIRL. Some fans haven't accepted it and I sympathize with that; it's just something I've had to do myself to appreciate the show for what it is rather than what I wish it would be.

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Yeah, I think it might make some sense, but I think the Alex and Kelly plot was both introduced and strongly leaned into to try and appeal to the LGBT angle.

It's hard to accuse Supergirl of being anything other than inclusive.  I'm sure there are more inclusive shows on TV, but it's pretty inclusive.

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I think the most opportune time for SUPERGIRL to have Kara realize she had romantic feelings for Lena would have been Season 5, and that time has unfortunately passed. The Season 5 arc would have gained a lot if Kara had felt compelled to reveal her identity to Lena for reasons she couldn't articulate. Then, as the season progressed, Kara could have recalled that Kryptonians don't really think of sexual orientation; people are assumed bisexual until told otherwise, something she never had a chance to grapple with as she was sent to Earth so young.

Perhaps in the midpoint of the arc, Kara would get ready to tell Lena that she had feelings for her -- only for Lena to reveal that she'd been plotting against Kara for all of Season 5 and reject her as a lover and as an ally. Kara would be crushed and defeated and forced to confront Lena again and tell her that despite Kara still being in love with her, Lena's alliance with Lex and any villainy would force Supergirl to treat her accordingly. Then Kara would be forced to withdraw her feelings, reject everything she'd once felt, only for Lena to come to her and switch sides.

Then, just before a defeated Lex sent Kara to the Phantom Zone, Lena would try to prevent it, endangering herself. Kara would protest and tell Lena to get to safety; Lena would say that she couldn't because she loves Kara too -- and Kara would be sent to the Phantom Zone before she could reply. Season 6 would have Lena desperate to find Kara; her worst fear would be finding Kara only for Kara to refuse to acknowledge her or face her or even look at her (to allow a stunt double to perform the scene with Katie McGrath), only for the hallucination to be defeated and for the real Kara to embrace her and reciprocate her feelings.

But the moment for this has unfortunately come and gone. At this point, a Kara/Lena romance wouldn't fit into the arc of Season 6 as anything more than an afterthought.

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I thought the Supergirl finale was....fine?

I thought all the returning faces were nice and showed some of growth of the show.  I also think any season 7 they would've done would've been much better than many of the last few seasons. 

I was also wondering about Batman in the Arrowverse.  The movies are going to have at least three Batmen (Affleck, Pattinson, and Keaton), so why can't there be another Batman on TV?  They've already connected the DCEU to the Arrowverse and cast Batman, so I don't know why they couldn't do it.  It would need to be its own thing, but I think a Batman show alongside Superman & Lois could rejuvenate the Arrowverse.  If they're going to do it, now's the time.

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I thought it was good. Not great, but very good. Some people are upset that Kara and Lena are just "gals being pals," as Den of Geek put it, but as I was watching it, I felt like maybe the true six season love story of SUPERGIRL has really been the love of two sisters, Kara and Alex.

Some odd choices with Lex and Lena this past year. Loved all the cameos. I was impressed at how Kara's happy ending wasn't finding a boyfriend but rather finding Supergirl.

More to say tomorrow.

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I ended up spoiling more than I thought so I'll put a tag up just in case:

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Yeah, I think it's totally fine that Kara didn't have any romantic subplot for most of the last few seasons, and I think it's fine that they didn't force something with Mon-El after he was gone for so long.  I think sometimes these shows focus too much on romantic subplots, and people don't have to be defined by their relationships.

I just think that a lot of her decision to reveal herself wasn't really built up.  It kinda felt like Seven and Chakotay - this is fine and maybe makes sense but when did this happen?  And in a season that started with Kara dealing with PTSD, having that wrapped up pretty quickly, and then having Kara face off in these "gauntlets", the idea that they never really set up "I'm going to reveal myself to the world" is a bit weird.  They had time and room for a plot like that.  I just felt like the last season was clunky, and Kara's development kinda suffered.

I also thought for a little bit that Mehcad Brooks didn't come back.  When Guardian showed up fully suited with an augmented voice, I wondered if that was going to be a workaround, but I was genuinely glad to see him.  And Winn.  And it was fun to see the "original superfriends" get a scene together because they've really come a long way.  I loved the scene with them and Barry when they learned about the multiverse.

I'm sad about the fact that, with no pandemic, we probably would've had more cameos.  Maybe a Kate Kane (either version I guess), probably a Clark and/or Lois, maybe some/all of the Justice League.  I know that they have to be able to deal with their own problems, but one of my favorite moments in Arrowverse history is when Oliver and Firestorm showed up to fight the Reverse Flash.  Why have a combined universe if they can't rely on each other for threats that are otherworldly?

But it was good and I'll miss Supergirl.

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Spoiler warning: Kara Danvers is Supergirl. Haha!




























I agree and disagree with the thought that Kara revealing her dual identity to the world was not set up earlier. But it's arguable that it was set up as early as the very first episode of SUPERGIRL.

One of the weaknesses of ARROW: for the first several episodes, Oliver had nobody to talk to, so we had that ridiculous monologue until Diggle joined the cast. THE FLASH avoided this by making sure that as of the first episode, Barry Allen had a full support staff. SUPERGIRL did the same.

However, THE FLASH and SUPERGIRL both created a new problem with the instant support staff: the secret identity seemed utterly pointless. Aside from Iris and Cat Grant, every regular cast member on THE FLASH and SUPERGIRL knew that Barry was the Flash and Kara was Supergirl.

In both shows, the Flash and Supergirl seem to be putting in excessive effort to maintain secret identities to shield the truth from exactly one person, and when that person found out, somebody else became the shielded party. Iris found out The Secret, so Patty Spivot became the person who wasn't in on The Secret for THE FLASH's second season. Then THE FLASH decided not to bother having any regular cast members who weren't on the team.

SUPERGIRL from Seasons 2 - 4 focused on hiding The Secret from Lena Luthor after Calista Flockhart left. In Season 5, Kara's secret was hidden from William and Andrea. And aside from one episode in Season 4 where Supergirl changed into Kara Danvers' identity to seem like a helpless civilian when hunted by one of Luthor's thugs, the secret identity has been pointless. Why does Kara Danvers need a day job as a journalist? The original 1938 ACTION COMICS had Superman becoming a journalist so that he could learn about all of society's problems. That has been totally unnecessary since the release of the iPhone 3G in 2008; Kara could get the news without having to actually work in the news.

Why does Kara hide her identity as Supergirl when 99.99 per cent of the people in her life already know it? Why does Kara need a day job? Her Supergirl exploits are affiliated with the Department of Extra-Normal Operations, a federal organization that would have to pay her a minimum of $65,000 a year -- not counting all the money should could earn by donating fluid and cell samples for biological research for medical treatments.

When Kara got fired from Catco in Season 2, she didn't have any trouble affording her luxuries and supplies and home, partially because the show ignored the financial issues but also because even without Catco, she was still a federal agent.

Kara Danvers' civilian life is with her co-workers, all of whom are superheroes. Kara has absolutely no hobbies, pursuits or interests that would be impeded by becoming a celebrity in both identities.

The secret identity made sense when Kara was a teenaged girl, but since the first episode of SUPERGIRL, the secret identity has been totally unnecessary. The show is fully aware that it's completely unneeded with Lena Luthor outraged that Kara would have one.

I would agree that Season 6 did not really have a lot of episodes where Kara was wondering why she even has two separate identites when everyone she hangs out with already knows. But this has been a glaring peculiarity since the first episode of SUPERGIRL.

Season 1 played it as a psychological deficiency: Kara is a deeply insecure girlchild, Kara is nervous and socially awkward and intimidated whereas Supergirl is an identity where she can be assertive and forthright. But starting with Season 2, there was really no reason for Kara to have a civilian life.

**

I wonder at what point the finale was filmed. Was it before vaccinations became available? There wasn't the sort of distancing that BATWOMAN's second season had where Ryan Wilder couldn't kiss her girlfriend, so everyone was probably quarantined for two weeks prior to filming. And it looks like Calista Flockhart filmed alone. The one shot of her and Kara sitting together is a body double with hair obscuring the face.

**

I was... put off by some of the choices with Lena and Lex this year. Making Lena a witch is, as I said, a baffling choice for a character written and characterized as a scientist.

Giving Lex a love story with Nyxly is another odd choice given how the character has been written as self-serving and unsentimental with every expression of love having been a manipulative lie. Lex might have wanted Nyxly's power, but there was absolutely no sense onscreen that they had or could have ever had any kind of emotional relationship, nor did Jon Cryer or the scripts do anything to make Lex's love for Nyxly seem real. SUPERGIRL has on two separate occasions presented Lex as loving Lena as a sister or loving Eve Tessmacher only to reveal it was a trick. Saying that Lex wrote love poems doesn't explain how or why a self-serving sociopath like Lex could have actual romantic feelings or why Nyxly would be the recipient of those feelings.

Lena being a witch and Lex being in love didn't work for me. The totems... were a silly MacGuffin of nothing and aside from being something to fight over, I had no investment in them at all. There was a lot of drama over Andrea Rojas and her morality and I didn't really see why anyone should be invested in that character; she was just Kara's civilian employer. I found all the time invested in these story elements rather puzzling and not worthwhile.

I was also puzzled again by how Lex Luthor in the series finale was a physical combatant firing ray beams at superheroes. Is that really an effective use of Lex the master planner? Lex the manipulator? Lex, the man who took over America from his prison cell by using white grievance against aliens and people of colour? Is that really making use of what makes Lex Luthor unique and distinct from the average thug?

Overall, I enjoyed Season 6, but it was flawed in many ways, some unavoidable and due to unforced errors. Season 6 is actually best understood as two separate seasons: a run of episodes with limited appearances from Melissa Benoist followed by a run of episodes where she's back full time.

The Benoist-lite episodes were extremely well done, especially with the return to Kara's teenaged years. The superfriends friendships were vibrant and charming. There was a terrific exploration of how this team functions around Supergirl by having Supergirl absent. The Kelly/Alex and Nia/Brainy romances were extremely strong and Lena had a fantastic arc in defining her place when surrounded by superheroes.

But Supergirl's return to SUPERGIRL was rather weak: a rushed shot of Kara and Alex hugging, a token episode of Kara's father being thrown out of the series. Nyxly was an effective antagonist in the Phantom Zone, but she had no real rapport with Kara once on Earth, no course in the enmity and Lex was so un-Lexlike in his characterization this year that it might have been better to not use him at all.

While the individual episodes after Kara's return were mostly strong, the core plot of pursuing totems that somehow ensure all the good in the world was a clumsy shift away from Supergirl's technology-defined reality and into fairy tale magic.

Thankfully, the character arcs were still effective admidst this framework. I really liked the use of William Dey as an imbedded journalist and his end was tragic. I was very pleased with Kelly and Alex adopting a child, a note which also touched on why Alex and Maggie Sawyer broke up in Season 3.

I think that the second half of Season 6 suffered for a variety of behind the scenes reasons. There was no specific sense, it seems, of precisely when Benoist would be back on the show. There was no clear sense of what filming could and couldn't be done at that point as the pandemic protocols were continuing to evolve. There was clearly a lot of thought put into character arcs but there seemed to be much less thought put into the villains, their plans, the threats they posed and their reasons for their actions -- which led to magic totems and Lex being in love for Reasons.

I would have liked a seventh season of Kara Danvers, Celebrity Superhero. I'm not entirely sure why SUPERGIRL is cancelled, but the reality of every TV series is that every year, costs go up with salary increases while ratings go down with viewer attrition. In addition, SUPERGIRL was budgeted (and the actors paid) with the show to air on CBS and with the expectation of a tax credit for Los Angeles filming that didn't come through. The budget was cut and the show relocated to the CW with Vancouver filming, but it's likely the actors were still getting their CBS-budgeted salaries and annual increases as part of their original contract.

SUPERGIRL performed really well for CW with 3 million viewers for the Season 2 premiere; even the most viewed episode of ARROW had about 4 million viewers. By Season 5, SUPERGIRL was at about 65 - 90 thousand viewers; about where ARROW was for its seventh season. I'm not sure live viewing figures mean anything, however, as CW shows seem to draw most of their revenue from sales to streaming services. But THE FLASH, ARROW and LEGENDS didn't start on a CBS financial model. SUPERGIRL did, and it's likely that Season 6 was the last because it had reached the point where its sales no longer justified the next round of CBS-contracted salary increases.

**

It's interesting how we have come to expect endings to TV shows. In contrast, shows up to the early 2000s were produced for indefinite renewal with conclusions / cancellations only known after the final episode had been filmed. It was rare for writers to know in advance and script accordingly. This was viewed as an unfortunate reality of how the TV business functioned.

But today, a conclusion is expected. A failure to provide one is viewed as mismanagement. If a show gets cancelled without an ending, studios and networks are called upon to order 1 - 2 more episodes to offer a finale. Shows without endings are not suited to streaming services. There was some chatter about how Netflix staff were upset and embarrassed at the bad publicity that came with cancelling LUKE CAGE, IRON FIST, THE SOCIETY, I AM NOT OKAY WITH THIS, TEENAGED BOUNTY HUNTERS, GLOW, DAYBREAK, SANTA CLARITA DIET; for the TV show TRINKETS, they renewed it for Season 2 but advertised it as the final season to avoid such issues. The CW did the same for SUPERGIRL, renewing for Season 6 but stating in advance that it was the last season. It's a shame that the pandemic and Benoist's absence made it hard to plan better.

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THE FLASH: What has gone wrong? I was rewatching the FLASH pilot this morning and I've come to realize something: THE FLASH was fundamentally a show about transformative trauma, but that is no longer the case.

In the pilot, Central City has been traumatized by the particle accelerator explosion. Dr. Caitlin Snow has been traumatized by the death of Ronnie Raymond. Cisco has been traumatized by his prize invention blowing up and killing people. Barry Allen has been traumatized by the horrific and inexplicable murder of his mother with his innocent father jailed for the crime.

When Barry encounters the Weather Wizard, the Wizard kills a man and the sequence ends with Barry crawling out of an overturned car. Barry is reeling, spiraling, tells his foster guardian and police officer Joe what he's seen -- and Joe howls at him that he's delusional, that his father is a murderer, that there is no such thing as a superpower. He retraumatizes Barry.

Barry stumbles into STAR Labs and blames Dr. Wells for the metahuman crisis and the murder and Wells accepts all blame, but tells Barry he has no business getting involved in the situation or trying to save anyone or stop any threat whatsoever. "You're not a hero. You're just a young man who was struck by lighting." He tells Barry that he's nothing more than a trauma victim. Barry tries to run away from it.

It doesn't work: even at superspeed, he flashes back to the night he saw his father forced into the back of a police car in handcuffs. The night he found his mother's dead corpse, eyes staring vacantly at the ceiling. Then he flashes back to the present; his jacket has burst into flame from the friction of his speed. THE FLASH, at least for Seasons 1 - 2, was about trauma. About experiencing savage, violent, dangerous, threatening, disturbing and mind-breaking event which form crippling, self-destructive memories that might not ever fade. And about Barry trying to outrun them.

But even at superspeed, Barry can't escape them, so he goes to see the most damaged, disturbed, broken and traumatized human being in the Arrowverse; he goes to see Oliver Queen. Barry tells Oliver: Barry is scared, unskilled, just a random person struck by lightning. But Oliver tells Barry that he has something special, a desire to protect people and shield them, that his speed will allow him to guard others from harm.

"I don't think that bolt of lighting struck you," Oliver tells Barry. "I think it chose you."

Barry confronts the Weather Wizard again but this time with a suit to permit his speed and with a support team to advise him. He unravels the Weather Wizard's tornado and defeats him; this time, Joe is present to witness it. Joe apologizes for his outburst and pledges to help Barry locate any other criminal metahumans and to find the truth about the murder of Barry's mother; Joe will work through Barry's trauma with him.

In Season 1, Episode 12, "Crazy For You," the teaser shows a car accident with a husband and wife inside the car. Barry arrives, superspeeds the husband out. The husband turns back to the car which explodes. The husband screams for his wife -- only to find that she's standing right next to him; Barry got her out in the seconds it took for the man to turn his head.

I remember watching this scene and feeling deeply moved. I was watching it with a girlfriend who told me she found the scene bizarre; it had nothing to do with the Peek-a-Boo villain of the week and her teleportation, no relevance to the plot. Why was it there? Seeing it again now: it was about a potentially traumatic moment that Barry averted.

THE FLASH is a show about transformative trauma. Season 1: the traumatic murder of Barry's mother. Season 2: the trauma of Wells' betrayal. Season 3: the trauma of Barry's father being murdered and the Flashpoint timeline. Season 4: all of the S1 - S3 traumas collectively risking that all of Barry's progress and the life he's built since will be unraveled with his (wrongful) murder charges.

And then in Season 5: there was no trauma. Barry had recovered. Barry had his family. Barry had moved past the murder of both parents and giving him new traumatic episodes was too repetitive to keep doing. It's possible that once THE FLASH resolved its core theme, it should have ended.

Seasons 5 - 7 of THE FLASH are not about trauma. Seasons 5 - 7 of THE FLASH are not about transformative trauma. And Seasons 5 - 7 of THE FLASH are not about the wish to outrun trauma. This is why THE FLASH has lost its unique voice.

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I liked your analysis of Supergirl, and I really don't have anything to add.

I feel like the series struggled on what to do with Kara a lot, though.  We watched her as the main character for six years, and what did we really learn about her?  She's really nice?  Really loyal?  Really hopeful?

She likes karaoke?  And musicals?  And singing?  She's supposedly really good at journalism, but she doesn't seem all that interested in doing it most of the time and doesn't seem all that upset to be quitting it.  I think for the most part, the writers had more interest in writing about Alex and Nia than writing about Supergirl, and she just became a Deus Ex Machina in her own show.  And, honestly, I think the same can be said about J'onn, who hasn't really had any storylines since his father's arc ended.  I almost feel like Smallville's J'onn was more fleshed out.  And they struggled on what to do with Brainy too.

I think, as you said, Supergirl was a "social justice show" - and I think that sometimes meant having the characters be conduits for telling social justice stories and less about the characters being real people.  Alex's understanding about her sexuality and having a healthy relationship with Kelly.  Nia's struggles with her sense of identity and the world's acceptance of her as who she is.  And I think having a beautiful, heterosexual white woman at the center of the show wasn't all that interesting to the writers because there weren't that many stories to tell about her that they'd care about.    So she often took a back seat.

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I thought part one of the Armageddon 5-part premiere was really fun.  And Ray Palmer's appearance was really fun and exactly the kind of thing I love about the shared Arrowverse.

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Bah! I don't get to see it until tomorrow when it's streaming on Netflix!

Ray is back!? Eeeek! I love Brandon Routh. I'm the man I am today because of Brandon Routh. (I've been following his diet plan, don't make it weird.)

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Sorry if that was a spoiler.

He seems like a genuinely good guy, both on the show and in real life.  I was just thinking...there isn't really an episode of any of the shows that Ray has been on where he's had a "dark arc" is there?  It was a thousand years ago, but when he was originally on Arrow, I think he was a rival to Oliver but never really a villain.  And once he got to Legends, he was always just really nice, upbeat, and dependable.  That's pretty cool.

I wonder what would've happened in an alternate world where the CW ordered a "The Atom" show instead of Legends of Tomorrow (and I'm sorry that I keep writing out Legends out of existence when it's easily the most consistently good Arrowverse show going).  I think it would've been interesting to have Ray as the lead in a show and to see what they'd do with him.  What kind of team he'd put together, etc. 

I haven't thought about it much, but I'm now picturing a "Dick Grayson and Damien Wayne Batman and Robin" vibe.  Ray meets an angry orphaned young man who has a knack for science, and Ray has to soften his rough edges.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Do we think Arrowverse Bruce is incapacitated/captured somehow, or is he watching all of this happen from the sidelines like Luke from The Last Jedi?  I'm curious as to what people think.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

No worries about the spoilers. I'm about to sit down with a bottle of red wine (okay, club soda) in my private home cineplex (alright, fine, it's my tablet on a lap desk on my bed) with surround sound (okay, it's bluetooth headphones) to watch FLASH and BATWOMAN. But I would like to say something about Kara:

Slider_Quinn21 wrote:

I feel like the series struggled on what to do with Kara a lot, though.  We watched her as the main character for six years, and what did we really learn about her? She's really nice?

I would say that Kara has an extremely detailed, well-considered, thoughtfully presented and calculatedly performed character. Her defining moment in the show -- well, there are two that immediately come to mind. The first is in Season 1's "Falling" when three schoolgirls are mocking a classmate for wearing a red cape and an S-shirt. "You look so stupid!" one of them snarls. "Everyone thinks so, that's why you don't have any friends."

Kara descends from the sky. "I wouldn't say that," Kara tells the cape-clad girl. "I think you look pretty awesome -- " and after X-raying the girl's backpack to read the name on her notebook, Kara adds, "Laura."

"You know Supergirl!?" the mean girl sputters.

"I'm friends with all the nice girls," Kara says, pats Laura on the shoulder and flies off.

The second is in Season 5, Episode 18 when Lena Luthor knocks on Kara's door and stands in the hallway awkwardly, Lena having recently betrayed Kara, tricked her into thinking they were still best friends, manipulated Kara into stealing for Lena, stolen stolen Kryptonian technology from Kara, sent Kara into the Phantom Zone, teamed up with Lex Luthor and stopped taking Kara's calls for deep and meaningful girltalk.

Lena, with a shaky voice and on the verge of tears, says "I have made a terrible mistake. I was hurt. I was so hurt. And I thought I could get rid of the hurt. But I was wrong. I know what I said and I know what I did, but I am... I am really hoping that you will believe me right now -- Lex is working with Leviathan, and they are going to use Obsidian to do something terrible. Using the system that I made with my project. I didn't know I was helping them, but I did. And now I want to help stop them, so please, okay? I want to help stop Lex and Leviathan."

Kara stares at Lena with suspicion. Exhaustion. Grief. And then resolve. And then Kara pulls a chair from the table and asks Lena to sit down.

Kara Danvers is not "really nice." Kara Danvers is superhumanly nice. Kara Danvers is nice to a degree that it could conceivably be some sort of mental illness.

This characterization does not necessarily lend itself to character arcs beyond giving Kara an anxiety disorder in Season 1 and a panic attack in a Season 3 episode. Kara Danvers being superhumanly nice to the point where her friendship with Lena didn't end in some GAME OF THRONES type bloodbath is something that is hard if not impossible to find in the real world. Did you read the Return of Sliders thread, did you see me blow a gasket on Transmodiar? Have you read my status updates where in a fit of rage, I told my favourite actress that I'd found someone else to be my favourite actress and replaced her? Kara Danvers would never do anything like that. It is not easy to be nice in this world.

I freely admit that this isn't a complicated character and that Kara isn't exactly Olivia Dunham from FRINGE or Wanda in WANDAVISION. But, I mean, entire religions have been founded around one character who was defined as "nice to the point of being superhumanly nice," so Kara Danvers is in rare company.

It's okay for a lead character to be very simple and straightforward. Not every character should be so simple and most characters who lead TV shows aren't, but surely in a world of Dexters and Ryan Wilders and Dr. Houses, there's room for a character as plainly defined as Kara Danvers. Kara Danvers isn't just "really nice." Kara Danvers is superhumanly nice, so nice that she's either a Mormon out to recruit or she's Supergirl.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Oh I totally agree.  I just don't know if that makes for a compelling main character, which is why I think they focused on the other characters a bit more.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

In my view, Kara Danvers having a very simple, straightforward, uncomplicated character meant that SUPERGIRL had a lot of range for a wide cast of characters and could incorporate a lot of identities and social justice themes into the show.

I'd consider that an asset, but I totally agree that the simplicity of Kara's character also made it impossible for SUPERGIRL to have only Kara carry the show or the season-long character arcs.

In contrast, Oliver Queen on ARROW was such a damaged, twisted, troubled story whose life was filled with such incident and trauma and grief and horror that he only ever needed one supporting character (and it didn't have to be anyone in particular, just someone he could talk to for expository purposes). Kara's character, however, could not have functioned without a large supporting cast.

Is Kara Danvers, being so simple, a boring character? I think there are plenty of people out there who consider Kara Danvers bland, uninteresting, flat and predictable. I think there are plenty of people who found Kara Danvers uplifting, inspiring, stirring, and that even if the character didn't have a lot of personal drama, the charisma of Melissa Benoist's performance made her a pleasure to have in the living room every week.

Certainly, regardless of where you fall on that scale, the Kara character was highly dependent on Melissa Benoist's performance to make a potentially dull personality into a warmly engaging onscreen presence. Kara Danvers was a total non-entity in a number of Season 4 episodes when Benoist was doing a musical and out of Vancouver. For those episodes, Kara was onscreen a lot but trapped in a lead-lined spacesuit with a helmet and Benoist filmed insert shots later of Kara's face under the helmet. Without Benoist to fully infuse the character with vulnerability and interest, there was no way to connect to the character.

A simple lead character can be handled poorly or well. I feel SUPERGIRL handled Kara's simplicity very well, but some shows don't.

SMALLVILLE's seventh season, for example, had a completely de-complicated version of the Clark Kent character: he wasn't in college studying to do anything, he had no parents onscreen anymore, he had no job beyond supposedly maintaining his farm, he had no ambitions for becoming a superhero, he wasn't actively looking for people to help, he wasn't actively looking for villains to stop. He wanted to do nothing but wake up on his farm next to Lana, harvest crops, milk cows and there was absoutely nothing there. The character seemed to drain energy from the stories when he appeared. The Season 7 Clark existed only to grant Tom Welling his contractually required screentime and Oliver and Lex became the de-facto lead characters. Thankfully, Season 8 gave Clark some actual goals again: to be come a journalist and to become a superhero.

I think Kara's lack of complexity was in SUPERGIRL's favour, but if handled poorly, it could have become a liability.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Slider_Quinn21 wrote:

Do we think Arrowverse Bruce is incapacitated/captured somehow, or is he watching all of this happen from the sidelines like Luke from The Last Jedi?  I'm curious as to what people think.

At this point, BATWOMAN has had a CRISIS, multiple attacks on Gotham City, a mass escape from Arkham and the former Crows turning on the city. If Bruce Wayne didn't come back to help with any of those situations, it's not because he didn't care, it's not because he was embittered -- it's because he couldn't come back, he couldn't help. Whatever reason for Bruce's absence has to cover BATWOMAN not having the license to use the character, only a special dispensation for imposters and dream sequences.

I think Bruce must be incapacitated or trapped somehow. Batman has been absent before; during KNIGHTFALL, he was paralyzed and searching the world for a cure. During 52, Bruce had a nervous breakdown stemming from the death of Professor Arturo -- I mean, the death of Jason Todd -- and spent some time writing a lavishly elaborate SLIDERS fanfic -- I mean, he spent some time travelling the world with Dick Grayson and Tim Drake, revisiting the places where he'd learned all his skills to become Batman and building a post-trauma version of Batman.

During BATMAN AND ROBIN REBORN, Bruce was thought dead at Darkseid's hand; he had actually been sent backwards in history and was an Unstuck Man in a crazy, lunatic, bizarre, continuity and mind-bending story until he finally made it back to the present in THE RETURN OF BRUCE WAYNE.

I think the show will hesitate to lay out a definitive reason for awhile longer because the longer Bruce is absent / withheld by the licensing department, the more severe the reasons must be for Bruce not coming back for every season's cataclysm. In Season 1, he might have been having a nervous breakdown. In Season 2, he might have had a nervous breakdown and suffering from arm and leg injuries and a heart condition. In Season 3, he might be dealing with a nervous breakdown and paralysis. In Season 4, he might be dealing with a nervous breakdown and paralysis and severe acid reflux.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

ireactions wrote:

At this point, BATWOMAN has had a CRISIS, multiple attacks on Gotham City, a mass escape from Arkham and the former Crows turning on the city. If Bruce Wayne didn't come back to help with any of those situations, it's not because he didn't care, it's not because he was embittered -- it's because he couldn't come back, he couldn't help. Whatever reason for Bruce's absence has to cover BATWOMAN not having the license to use the character, only a special dispensation for imposters and dream sequences.

This has bothered me since Batwoman started, as you know, but if I were running the show, I would've gotten a meeting with the highest-up person at DC I could get a meeting with and I'd ask for a direct answer - will I ever get to use Bruce Wayne as Batman on my show?  If the answer is no, I kill off Batman.  Having his ghost around is too much.  I'd also have his villains die too.  Maybe a Superman-level villain wiped everyone out in some sort of battle royale and then Superman fixed it.  Or Kara.  Whoever.

Because having Batman just out there not doing anything is too big of a shadow.  I also wouldn't have set the show in Gotham but that's a different argument.

If there's a chance, I'm fine with running out the clock until they let Batman be on the show.  Putting Superman on Supergirl didn't hurt Supergirl, and I'm sure having occasional Batman visits would be fine for Batwoman.

I also think it's dumb that DC has three Batmen currently (Pattinson, Affleck, and Keaton) but thinks that one on TV would confuse people.

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I think Armageddon has been really fun.