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Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

ireactions wrote:
Grizzlor wrote:

as for masks, honestly anything but an N95 equivalent mask is not going to give you much protection.  the surgical ones, cloth ones, whatever, maybe 15-30 minutes, good enough for quick trips inside a store or whatever.  they don't help much otherwise.

Grizzlor wrote:

Most people don't wear surgical masks correctly at all, to the point where they are really not that effective.  That was my point.

I don't see anything in your original post about fit, just a blanket remark that anything less than an N95 doesn't protect. And that simply isn't true.

But on the subject of cloth and surgical masks: I've seen some very impressive results with people wearing a surgical mask (with its somewhat loose adhesion to the face) but then wearing a cloth mask on top. While the cloth mask adds only miniscule filtration, most cloth masks I've seen with nose wires and earloops and a triangular shape do a nice job of conforming to the face. This seals the surgical mask where the surgical alone fails.

Personally, I am not a fan of double-masking for myself. It works, but I would rather wear one good mask than a mask that lacks filtration over a mask that lacks a seal. I'm currently using boat-shaped ASTM Level 3 masks because I've found that the seal is best on my face. They're kind of expensive, though, so I only allow myself to rotate between five every month, and I also have a lot of surgical masks with added cord locks as backups.

The surgical masks, even if they are fit against the face, do protect against this variant anywhere near what the N95 does.  I'm getting that right from Dr. Michael Osterholm.  There really is no way to get it to "seal" on your face.  I agree on wearing the cloth or whatever on top of it, but honestly at that point, why bother?  Just get an N95.  Regardless, his point and mine was that most people wear poor masks and also wear them incorrectly.

1,902 (edited by ireactions 2021-08-11 15:04:50)

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Grizzlor wrote:

The surgical masks, even if they are fit against the face, do protect against this variant anywhere near what the N95 does.  I'm getting that right from Dr. Michael Osterholm.  There really is no way to get it to "seal" on your face.  I agree on wearing the cloth or whatever on top of it, but honestly at that point, why bother?  Just get an N95.  Regardless, his point and mine was that most people wear poor masks and also wear them incorrectly.

The only quote I can find from Osterholm on the subject is his appearance on CNN saying that cloth masks are ineffective and N95 masks are his preference; I see no comments on surgical masks from him, although all the search results are inundated with anti-maskers citing Osterholm to bolster their lies that all masks are useless. https://thehill.com/changing-america/we … rotect-you

Regardless, Duke University's tests have shown that surgical mask materials have nearly the same filtration as N95s. https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/6/36/eabd3083 However, surgical masks require either a second cloth mask on top to ensure a firm fit or cord locks to tighten up the earloops for the individual wearer.

Why would someone buy something other than an N95? They can be costly. In my city, N95 masks cost about $1.88 USD per mask. In contrast, a KF94 costs $1.04 USD per mask, and my mask of choice costs $0.77 USD each. My mother, in the hot summer air, cannot breathe through any of these masks and can only stand to wear a $0.40 USD surgical mask. I have added cord locks to each of the earloops ($0.12 USD a pair) to ensure a tight seal to her face for those masks.

Masks aren't infinitely reusable; they'll endure about 40 hours of wearing before the filtration diminishes. People may need to buy masks in high quantities at lower price points and my 77 cent ASTM3 mask with a 360 seal is equal to any N95. Also in my case, I find that most duckbill style masks like KN95s and even the N95 leave some slight gaps whereas the boat style mask I have chosen leaves no gaps at all and the ASTM Level 3 protection boasts splendid filtration.

ASTM Level 3 filters 98 per cent of particles down to 0.1 microns whereas N95 is rated for 95 per cent of particles down to 0.3 microns (although N95 certification tests fit and ASTM does not, but these ASTM3 masks fit my face better than any alternatives I've tried and I've tried a lot).

N95 is an excellent standard. But N95 is only one manufacturing standard of certification from the United States National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health. NIOSH does not review every mask in existence. Numerous countries have their own certification standards. Countries that aren't America are perfectly capable of manufacturing and certifying masks with electrostatic filtration. Americans don't have a monopoly on meltblown polypropylene.

Other certification standards for electrostatic filtration include the international ASTM (formerly American), the European Union's FFP2, the KF94 of South Korea and the Chinese KN95. Each standard and testing process is slightly different and the KN95 has proven lax, but mask standards are not the sole domain of the United States or NIOSH or China.

Mechanical engineer Aaron Collins has tested KF94 masks and found that they match and exceed N95 standards. https://news.yahoo.com/one-man-is-on-a- … 56926.html

NIOSH has not reviewed KF94s. But mask filtration is not affected by whether or not one American body put their stamp on the box.

Now, to be clear: Grizzlor's preference for only wearing N95 masks is safe and sets a high target for protection. Anyone who adopted it would be well-protected. N95 masks are an industry standard of high performance. It is the most resilient and most stringently tested respirator technology on the market. Nobody should ever perceive an N95 mask to be anything less than excellent. And Grizzlor is entirely correct to present Osterholm as a source of knowledge as Osterholm has warned that cloth masks are pretty much useless.

However, there is also excellence to be found in ASTM Level 3 masks, KF94 masks, and properly fitted electrostatic surgical masks as well. Once the filtration is good, the key concern is fit.

1,903 (edited by RussianCabbie_Lotteryfan 2021-08-12 10:03:12)

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

ireactions wrote:

I hope you're right about the vaccines versus the Delta. They definitely keep you out of the hospital and out of the grave, but the reports of contagion among the vaccinated have rattled me a bit.

You seem to equate cloth masks with surgical masks. That simply isn't true.

Cloth is indeed near-useless as a filtration medium, but surgical masks are made from meltblown polypropylene. They have a water-resistant filter, an electrostatic layer and an inner layer for skin comfort can filter viral particles. But to protect, a mask with these layers must firmly adhere to the face and leave no gaps around the nose and mouth. Masks with these filters fail to protect not because of the filtration but because of the fit, and fit can be amended.

I have reviewed and personally taken apart N95 masks, KN95 masks, KF94 masks and surgical masks. The N95 is the gold standard because it wraps around the back of the head and clamps to the face to seal off the nose and mouth -- but aside from that, the filtration, while heavily layered (five layers), is ultimately acting on the same principle of the KN95s, KF94s and surgical masks: a water resistant layer to block droplets and an electrostatic layer to ensnare viral particles.

KN95s have the same number of layers and the same filtration, but Chinese manufacturers have had a lot of trouble meeting N95 filtration standards because many of these plants were previously making T-shirts and socks. These masks often break easily or have massive gaps in the electrostatic filtering or don't have all the layers of an N95.

KF94s have four layers and the same filtration, they seal firmly to the face, and they are extremely reliable because South Korea actively inspects manufacturers and fines any business with substandard output and poor quality masks never make it out of the country. However, the filtration rates have proven to be the same; the extra layers of an N95 make it harder and more resilient to wear and tear but adding a fourth and fifth layer only provides diminishing returns.

The material used in surgical masks have nearly the same filtration levels as N95 masks despite only three filters. They have an outer water resistant layer, an inner electrostatic layer and a layer for facial comfort. The problem is not the material; it's that surgicals are shaped like flat rectangles and can't align to the three dimensional shape of a human face. They don't seal firmly, at least not out of the box, and because they leave gaps at the sides, their filtration is estimated at 60 - 80 per cent depending on the face.

However, a surgical can be amended with putting cord locks on the earloops to tighten the surgical mask's grip against the face. They can be further augmented by adding an additional PM2.5 filter inside the mask which can be firmly pressed against the mouth and nose by a tightly fitting surgical.

Do you know of k95 lose most of their usefulness (in terms of unique qualities k95 is supposed to provide) once you use them X number of times / its age?   Because if the static electric charge is the 'point' i am pretty sure a lot of that can go away over time and i keep re-using the same ones but maybe I'm not really getting much of that added k95 benefit? 

Like, are we supposed to change these things every week or something?

edit: sorry in your last post you mention every forty wears.  Is that a number that pertains to k95?

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Mechanical engineer Aaron Collins has done a lot of tests of KF94s and KN95s and recommends wearing them for 30 - 40 hours. This applies to any mask that uses meltblown polypropylene that filters through an electrostatic charge which includes N95s, KN95s, KF94s and surgical masks. The electrostatic charge dissipates as it goes to work in catching particles from air going in and out; in addition, earloops on masks stretch over time and what starts as a firm seal can become less firm after 30 - 40 hours. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_In-nBP6WkQ

At the start of each month, I set aside five boat-shaped ASTM Level 3 masks, one designated for each day. After a wearing, I put the worn mask in a paper envelope (marked with the day of the week) and let it sit for four days while moving onto the next mask. During those four days, any droplets will evaporate and any virus will become inactive. I also have surgical masks (with cord locks and PM2.5 filters) as backups, and those are also put in the paper envelope for four days after a wearing.

At the end of the month, I throw out the five ASTM3 masks and start on a new set of five. The surgical masks, however, I wear a lot less, so I use for two months before throwing them out and moving to a new set of backup surgicals. (I keep the cord locks, though.)

And as I've mentioned, KN95 manufacturing standards have proven extremely poor with at least 70 percent of KN95s in North America filtering less than the advertised 95 per cent, some filtering as little as 20 per cent. Whenever starting on a new brand of masks (three packs of KF94s, 10 packs of surgicals, 50 packs of ASTM3 boat shape masks), I always cut one open and check to make sure that there is a filtration layer inside with a static charge. I also put water in this test mask to ensure that fluids (and droplets) don't soak through.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

You've probably mentioned this before but what ASTM3 masks do you buy?  Can you provide a link?

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

I'm afraid that my ASTM Level 3 masks are a Canadian product delivered within Canada only (and they seem to have sold out anyway at present on innolifecare.com). However, the mask that I have my mother wear is the Kleannara KF94 and Kleannara has an Amazon store.

https://www.amazon.com/stores/KLEANNARA … C97B9972D?

I've taken apart my ASTM3 mask and taken apart the Kleannara mask and the Kleannara mask is actually a bit better. Under the Kleannara's outer layer of water resistant non-woven layer is a high density filtration layer on top of the electrostatic layer followed by the soft-on-skin layer. In contrast, my ASTM3 mask has the water resistant material on as the first and third layer with the electrostatic filter in the middle. But my ASTM3 mask has a closer fit on my nose, so I use those instead.

Aaron Collins, the mechanical engineer whose videos provide me with all knowledge of masks, has reviewed the Kleannara as well with his equipment and he measured filtration at 98.7 per cent, so it is a very fine mask. https://youtu.be/Z93BoeCuIE4?t=1992

My mother says she can't wear the Kleannara right now as it's very hot outside and she is struggling to breathe through the four layer mask. I have put her back on three-layer surgicals with cord locks. If you already have surgical masks and just want to close the gaps, you could try spending $7 on 100 cord locks.

https://www.amazon.com/Adjuster-Silicon … ref=sr_1_2

1,907 (edited by RussianCabbie_Lotteryfan 2021-08-12 22:15:09)

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

ireactions wrote:

Mechanical engineer Aaron Collins has done a lot of tests of KF94s and KN95s and recommends wearing them for 30 - 40 hours. This applies to any mask that uses meltblown polypropylene that filters through an electrostatic charge which includes N95s, KN95s, KF94s and surgical masks. The electrostatic charge dissipates as it goes to work in catching particles from air going in and out; in addition, earloops on masks stretch over time and what starts as a firm seal can become less firm after 30 - 40 hours. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_In-nBP6WkQ

At the start of each month, I set aside five boat-shaped ASTM Level 3 masks, one designated for each day. After a wearing, I put the worn mask in a paper envelope (marked with the day of the week) and let it sit for four days while moving onto the next mask. During those four days, any droplets will evaporate and any virus will become inactive. I also have surgical masks (with cord locks and PM2.5 filters) as backups, and those are also put in the paper envelope for four days after a wearing.

At the end of the month, I throw out the five ASTM3 masks and start on a new set of five. The surgical masks, however, I wear a lot less, so I use for two months before throwing them out and moving to a new set of backup surgicals. (I keep the cord locks, though.)

And as I've mentioned, KN95 manufacturing standards have proven extremely poor with at least 70 percent of KN95s in North America filtering less than the advertised 95 per cent, some filtering as little as 20 per cent. Whenever starting on a new brand of masks (three packs of KF94s, 10 packs of surgicals, 50 packs of ASTM3 boat shape masks), I always cut one open and check to make sure that there is a filtration layer inside with a static charge. I also put water in this test mask to ensure that fluids (and droplets) don't soak through.

thanks for that info.  in terms of storage, do you thing a paper envelope is superior to a plastic zip lock for storage (in term of preserving the static electric charge)?

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

I don't believe anything can preserve the static charge aside from not wearing it. The reason a paper envelope is best for storage after wearing: moisture can evapourate from the mask and through the paper. The mask will dry, any virus lodged in the mask will become inactive, and the mask can be worn again after 72 hours (although I give it 96 to make it easier to keep track). A plastic ziplock bag won't allow moisture to lift off the mask; it will stay in the bag and on the mask.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

ireactions wrote:

I don't believe anything can preserve the static charge aside from not wearing it. The reason a paper envelope is best for storage after wearing: moisture can evapourate from the mask and through the paper. The mask will dry, any virus lodged in the mask will become inactive, and the mask can be worn again after 72 hours (although I give it 96 to make it easier to keep track). A plastic ziplock bag won't allow moisture to lift off the mask; it will stay in the bag and on the mask.

Oh ok.  I thought if the mask was exposed to air that it naturally lost the electro static charge at the forty hr rate.  it sounds like wearing it is what is largely responsible for that loss, due to exhale and breath (carrying moisture discharge)?  rather than just air exposure (which is why I had asked about zip lock bags).

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Under various tests, the electrostatic charge has mostly broken down due to liquid, aerosol and particle exposure from inhaling and exhaling. Air exposure in storage has proven to be irrelevant at least within a four month period.

When an electrostatic layer gets soaked, it loses its static properties. (This rarely happens because a mask has an outer water resistant layer.) But every time you breathe through a mask, you are expelling moisture in your breath. The moisture goes through the mask. This is a very low level of moisture, but the droplets in your breath which will gradually cause the charge to lessen over time.

The other charge-reducing factor is particle exposure. As you breathe in and out, every particle that your mask filter catches with its static charge is a reduction in that static charge.

According to Collins' tests, after 38 hours in a "clean office environment," a mask with 99 per cent filtration would go down by 3 - 4 per cent. That's not bad, but that filtration level will only get lower and lower. If you're regularly passing through environments with lots of particles in the air, that charge will drop even more severely.

However, leaving a mask sitting unused didn't seem to cause the filtration to degrade within the four months Collins was testing this. Air is not being forced in and out through the filter when the mask isn't worn. You have to breathe through it to wear the filter down.

N95 masks are sold with an expiry date of five years after they were produced, presumably because the electrostatic charge can't last indefinitely.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

ireactions wrote:

Under various tests, the electrostatic charge has mostly broken down due to liquid, aerosol and particle exposure from inhaling and exhaling. Air exposure in storage has proven to be irrelevant at least within a four month period.

When an electrostatic layer gets soaked, it loses its static properties. (This rarely happens because a mask has an outer water resistant layer.) But every time you breathe through a mask, you are expelling moisture in your breath. The moisture goes through the mask. This is a very low level of moisture, but the droplets in your breath which will gradually cause the charge to lessen over time.

The other charge-reducing factor is particle exposure. As you breathe in and out, every particle that your mask filter catches with its static charge is a reduction in that static charge.

According to Collins' tests, after 38 hours in a "clean office environment," a mask with 99 per cent filtration would go down by 3 - 4 per cent. That's not bad, but that filtration level will only get lower and lower. If you're regularly passing through environments with lots of particles in the air, that charge will drop even more severely.

However, leaving a mask sitting unused didn't seem to cause the filtration to degrade within the four months Collins was testing this. Air is not being forced in and out through the filter when the mask isn't worn. You have to breathe through it to wear the filter down.

N95 masks are sold with an expiry date of five years after they were produced, presumably because the electrostatic charge can't last indefinitely.


Thank you, this is great information.

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Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Well obviously the lead story is the total mess in Afghanistan.  Not much to say other than the US Military is incapable of a mass/hasty withdrawal like this following what is obviously defeat.  Frankly, I don't think any military is capable of keeping order in this type of scenario.  I do not quite understand why the administration seemed to ignore calls for an earlier evacuation?  My personal feeling is that Biden expected that would require taking tens of thousands of Afghans on as refugees, for which every GOP politician would have screamed bloody murder over.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Afghanistan isn't masks, so I'm not qualified to really analyze it right now. Every editorial I've seen saying Biden was wrong to withdraw is written from a pro-war standpoint which I don't hold with. Every editorial I've seen saying Afghanistan was unwinnable and pointless and that there is never a good time end an already lost far pays little attention to the civilians who will suffer. I am not capable of offering any measured, considered perspective, so I'm simply reading and listening.

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Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Ultimately the Afghani "leadership" is to blame for the Taliban's quick retaking of the country. The US left them with a significant advantage in manpower and equipment, twenty years of training, and control of all the major cities. Maintaining a hold over the country shouldn't have been that difficult.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

I think that is something to contemplate.

**

This is not about masks or Afghanistan but, oddly, is about SLIDERS and Trumpism.

In 2018, I had an episode of blackout rage where on a SLIDERS Facebook group, a person I'll call Francisco Herrera called Temporal Flux a liar because Temporal Flux shared so much anecdotal behind the scenes information about SLIDERS that Herrera couldn't imagine anyone being able to find and therefore, Temporal Flux had to be making it all up. Herrera told people to go to EarthPrime.com for "the real story" which is hilarious because EarthPrime.com's behind the scenes information doesn't contradict Temporal Flux in any area.

I was furious that my friend was being attacked with EP.COM as a cudgel especially when I'd spent a lot of time converting a box of Sci-Fi Channel press clippings to EP.COM content. I proceeded to post 10 separate links in the Facebook group linking to EP.COM where TF had gotten the info first, each time tagging Herrera. Herrera proceeded to reply, "I have been tagged with at least TEN NOTIFICATIONS today," he wrote. "Nobody needs this on Christmas Day! If you want to keep posting links to EarthPrime, LEAVE ME OUT OF IT!"

The moderator told me to desist and I agreed. Later, I decided I had to get the hell out of this ridiculous Facebook group because posters kept slut-shaming Kari Wuhrer for having performed nude scenes (nonsensically insulting her for producing the material they clearly sought out and enjoyed). Also, the posters there inexplicably rallied behind some scam artist claiming that he was pitching a revival of SLIDERS (an NBCUniversal property) to the Canadian Broadcasting Company (which has no tie to NBCUniversal) and that he was sure he could convince the Canadian Broadcasting Company to buy the rights to SLIDERS. This person didn't have so much as a TV commercial to their name and also bragged that he was going to be contacting David Peckinpah and Kari Weir to return as their characters.

Anyway. Recently, Hererra showed up in the SLIDERS Discord. While civil at first, he remarked on my psychotic episode against him and I confirmed that his account was accurate and that he'd upset me. Then abruptly, Herrera stopped being civil when I said I had been talking to a SLIDERS crew member who shall be nameless, but I had stopped talking to them and become uncomfortable when this crew member had been retweeting pro-Trump posts.

"I'm sick of people demonizing Trump voters," Hererra said. "Your president did good things for your country. You have to accept it."

I said it was interesting that Herrera assumed he could only be talking to Americans in an internet forum when the SLIDERS Discord is actually run by a Canadian and a Scotswoman and defined a failure to support Donald Trump as treason. I also remarked that Donald Trump supporters were largely composed of abusive, harrassing liars.

Herrera proceeded to call me a "virtue signaler" and "an elitist." I promptly blocked him, but I noticed that he was responding to my every comment afterwards which I would read 4 - 6 hours later.

I commented on DOCTOR WHO having recently recast the First Doctor. Herrera shrieked at me that the Doctor had been recast in 1966, not recently, and said I should get my facts right. I guess his hurried Google search missed how David Bradley had played the First Doctor in 2017.

I remarked that Allison Mack had left SMALLVILLE in Season 9; Hererra told me that Allison Mack had "completed" all 10 seasons of SMALLVILLE, clearly having never watched the show and unaware that Mack only did six episodes out of 22 in Season 10.

I commented that Jerry O'Connell didn't seem too picky about projects these days having done lots of pilots and voicework and web videos and he shrieked at me that Jerry O'Connell was worth millions. "He gets paid more than YOU!" A very odd attempt at an insult as the vast majority of people in the world have less than 20 million dollars.

I didn't respond to him. The moderator asked Herrera to desist and I also apologized to Herrera for my behaviour on Facebook in 2018, then put him on mute again, reading his comments hours after he'd send them.

I commented later that David Peckinpah's concern for safety standards on SLIDERS had been shockingly poor, hiring a non-union stunt worker in Season 5 despite poor safety having already gotten Ken Steadman killed in Season 3. Hererra told me that it was outrageous for me to criticize David Peckinpah in any way because Peckinpah had built an excellent career before SLIDERS.

I remarked that "The Exodus" had been essentially a two week rock concert for the cast and crew to enjoy Roger Daltrey's band (The Who) with filming episodes done between binge drinking and spoke to Peckinpah's addiction issues; Herrera told me that it was ridiculous for me to speak poorly of Peckinpah given Peckinpah's mental health.

I noted that Peckinpah writing rape fantasies about Sabrina Lloyd into "Genesis" was shockingly unprofessional; Herrera declared that I had no right to evaluate Peckinpah's writing at all because Peckinpah was dead.

I didn't respond to him. The moderator informed Herrera that criticism of David Peckinpah was not in any way unreasonable or off limits.

I was later talking about how the Season 5 team had known SLIDERS would be cancelled and Herrera called me a liar, saying that Bill Dial had not known about the cancellation until after filming "The Seer."

I didn't respond to him. The moderator pointed Herrera to Keith Damron's blog posts citing that Season 5 had 18 episodes simply to reach syndication and end it, that a series finale story had been plotted, and also pointed to actor interviews where they themselves said Bill Dial believed Season 5 would be the final season. Herrera replied that Dial had wanted the show to come back, not addressing how Dial had known full well that it wouldn't.

The moderator proceeded to kick Herrera off the SLIDERS Discord for posting blatant falsehoods about SLIDERS.

Let's take a moment to appreciate how a Trumpist became angry about being described as an abusive, harassing liar and so proceeded to engage in a campaign of abuse, harassment and lies. This Trumpist declared that anyone who is worth less than $20 million is a target to be attacked. This Trumpist decreed that David Peckinpah's stewardship of SLIDERS should never, ever, ever be criticized in any way shape or form and that David Peckinpah writing rape fantasies about Sabrina Lloyd into SLIDERS scripts isn't something to be judged harshly.

Anyway. I apologized to the Discord moderator, saying that this situation was entirely my fault because I'd antagonized a crazy person in 2018 and they came after me in 2021 and did it on the SLIDERS Discord. And I gave the moderator my word that I would stop creating enemies this way because they apparently show up later on her server.

Since then, I've been dealing with the Herreras of the world by speaking to moderators and administrators and not making myself a target that they'll pursue to the ends of the SLIDERS community.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

ireactions wrote:

I'm afraid that my ASTM Level 3 masks are a Canadian product delivered within Canada only (and they seem to have sold out anyway at present on innolifecare.com). However, the mask that I have my mother wear is the Kleannara KF94 and Kleannara has an Amazon store.

https://www.amazon.com/stores/KLEANNARA … C97B9972D?

Awesome.  I bought some of these yesterday and they'll be my primary mask.  I really only leave the house to get groceries and pick up take out so I think a good reliable mask will be a key part of staying healthy.

My only concern now is that we have grandparents coming over semi-regularly to help with the kids and my oldest is in daycare.  But I think it's impossible to have zero risk.  I'm just doing what I can.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Grizzlor wrote:

Well obviously the lead story is the total mess in Afghanistan.  Not much to say other than the US Military is incapable of a mass/hasty withdrawal like this following what is obviously defeat.  Frankly, I don't think any military is capable of keeping order in this type of scenario.  I do not quite understand why the administration seemed to ignore calls for an earlier evacuation?  My personal feeling is that Biden expected that would require taking tens of thousands of Afghans on as refugees, for which every GOP politician would have screamed bloody murder over.

I haven't figured out where I stand on it.  I think Afghanistan was a huge failure and we probably needed to get out.  We probably could've done better, but I agree with Biden that if the Afghans didn't care, why should we?

I do wonder why there wasn't a quicker move to evacuate, and I haven't heard a good reason as to why that didn't happen.  Especially Americans.  I would've evacuated, then withdrawn.  But I'm hardly an expert either.  I think it sucks for all the soldiers who felt like they lost friends for no reason.  But I don't know what else we could've done: it does seem like the options were to leave or stay forever.

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Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

ireactions.....I'm about 99% certain I know the man who spoke of as "Francisco Herrera" LOL as he's pretty active on the Sliders FB group.  I get into it frequently with him, because he's quite the "know-it-all" and his new crusade is to complain about anything woke.  Suffice to say he doesn't have much reverence for any of us who've been in the Sliders online community for over 20 years.  Which is fine.

Moving on, guys the sad fact is you will not find one instance in the history of mankind where an occupying army completely withdraws from a war it has effectively lost, and there is no chaos.  There is always chaos, and there are always huge numbers of people left behind who fought/aided that same army.  It is unavoidable, and is not the fault of the military leadership.  The media is full of Monday morning QB's from right to left, but none of them have a reasonable alternative plan for what's happening there. 

The only alternative is to redeploy probably 100K US forces on the ground, a level we have not had in a decade or more.  Biden is trying to avoid having US Marines having a firefight with Taliban.  That is his goal here, get Americans and Western nationals out.  So that's where we are.  If he can accomplish that to a satisfactory level, great.  Doesn't seem like it right now though.  For those who will start screaming Al Qaeda will return, or they won't let girls go to school, whatever, enough already.  We cannot be at war.  The Afghans largely gave up when Trump made that deal in February 2020, it is what it is.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Afghanistan is a bad situation. I don't know what else to say about it right now except everyone's views here seem valid.

**

I don't know that the longevity of our love for SLIDERS is anything that requires reverence, but I do think we should bow to facts and not flood the SLIDERS community with false information about the show.

I don't doubt, Grizzlor, that you know exactly who Francisco Herrera is, but I don't want to attack his professional prospects by putting his real name in an account of his insistence on defending rape fantasies that could be harmful when employers look him up.

I accept full responsibility for how things with Francisco Herrera started in 2018. I don't think it was my fault that it ended up the way it did in 2021. Nobody forced him to flood the Discord channel with savage insistence that David Peckinpah's unprofessionalism, sexual harassment and non-existent script editing should never be raised or discussed or critiqued.

I wasn't even responding to him; he did that of his own accord because hearing Trumpists declared as abusively harassing liars apparently made him feel he had to defend himself by being an abusively harassing liar with the lies being so petty and easily fact-checked (like whether or not Allison Mack did every episode of SMALLVILLE's tenth season or whether or not a new actor recently played the First Doctor in DOCTOR WHO).

I'm not sure if Francisco Herrera understands that he became a Trumpist cliche in a SLIDERS context by claiming David Peckinpah and Bill Dial should be elevated to sainthood. He continued to bleat that Peckinpah and Dial should never be questioned and lied about Dial not knowing Season 5 was the end and I don't know if he actually believes that. He may or may not, but he kept saying that because it obviously enraged him that I wouldn't respond to him, wouldn't speak to him, wouldn't acknowledge that he even existed. He was hoping his lies would trigger a response from me and got himself kicked off the server and I suppose he did get me to respond, but only after he was gone.

I absolutely started it and I accept responsibility for that, but I'm not responsible for how someone offended by Trumpists being viewed as as deranged, deceitful abusers decided that the best way to disprove that would be to embark on a deranged course of deceitful abuse. Francisco Herrera was probably like this long before Christmas 2018.

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Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

By the way, this study claims that most surgical masks and cloth coverings filter only about 10 percent of exhaled aerosols.  KN95 are 46% while the N95 is 60% effective.  This again goes to my point that most people are using masks that don't do much of anything.

https://nypost.com/2021/08/22/study-fin … oth-masks/

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

The actual study: https://aip.scitation.org/doi/10.1063/5.0057100

The study's review of surgical masks is extremely concerning to me: 47 per cent filtration when the material was wrapped around an outlet pipe is shockingly poor. However, the study specifies that N95 and KN95 masks have electrostatic filtration -- and then equates surgical masks with cloth masks as lacking that filtration. This indicates they used a surgical without electrostatic layers, so their study doesn't review surgical masks that do have the filtration.

I've seen electrostatic surgical mask tests with Collins and Duke University where the material itself filtered 90 to 98 per cent. As I've said earlier, every time I buy a new quantity of surgical masks, I'll cut one open to make sure it has an electrostatic filter. I've found one brand that lacked the electrostatic layer and simply don't buy it any more.

The study rates KN95 inhalation filtration at 95 per cent and N95 filtration (referred to as R95 in the study) at 96 per cent protection for the wearer. Their exhalation filtration is rated at 46 per cent for KN95 and 60 per cent for KN95 -- which is protection for those around the wearer. The study does not review KF94 masks (thankfully, we've had Aaron Collins for that) and those masks are rated at 98 per cent filtration for the Kleannara.

The study also doesn't account for how KN95 masks have extremely poor quality control with over 70 per cent of them filtering less than 95 per cent; some as low as 40 although some hover in the 93 - 94 per cent range.

Anyway. As Grizzlor says, N95 masks are excellent.

KN95 masks are a gamble. KF94 is great. And surgical -- if you can make sure that the filter is present by cutting one open to check and if you can put on some cord locks to tighten up the fit, those are also good. I would just go with KF94: affordable in high quantities for a rotation, no modifications needed, widely available, stringently reviewed before export from Korea.

My personal choice of an ASTM3 mask is more for my specific face than it is a general recommendation and my ASTM3s are sold out anyway.

1,922 (edited by Grizzlor 2021-08-23 12:07:55)

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Well again there's a further trade off between mask efficiency and where you are and who you are with.  If the space is well ventilated, and your time there is short, you probably don't even need a mask. 

I was reading something the other day, and of course now can't find it, that vaccinated people may have similar viral loads to unvaccinated, but that the virus is actually not culturable at all, or for a much shorter time.  That means the rate of transmission from a vaccinated person is likely still never low.  That is why vaccine passports are likely some of the smartest, most efficient means of controlling the spread.  As is being done across Europe and some US cities.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/italy-once-o … 06491.html

Lastly, the FDA approval for Pfizer is done, so the anti-vaxxers who have used that as an excuse no longer have one.  US Military should be mandating it soon.  There's a lot of debate over boosters, but the main reason for them was that we gave people 2 shots within a very unusual period of time, just 3 or 4 weeks.  That's normally months, if not years apart.  That's why the immunity has waned.  Many doctors believe that a booster may well be the final COVID shot you need take, since the immune system has had time to develop defenses, and such after the booster.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Grizzlor wrote:

Well again there's a further trade off between mask efficiency and where you are and who you are with.  If the space is well ventilated, and your time there is short, you probably don't even need a mask.

Nobody test this theory.

Grizzlor wrote:

I was reading something the other day, and of course now can't find it, that vaccinated people may have similar viral loads to unvaccinated, but that the virus is actually not culturable at all, or for a much shorter time.

This is the study:
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101 … 21262158v1

This is a web article on the study:
https://www.deseret.com/coronavirus/202 … ious-covid

The upshot of the study is that while vaccinated and infected people were contagious, their viral particle count dropped within three days. In contrast, an unvaccinated and infected patient is contagious for 10 - 20 days.

Grizzlor wrote:

Many doctors believe that a booster may well be the final COVID shot you need take, since the immune system has had time to develop defenses, and such after the booster.

I don't know anything about this at all, but I'd like to believe it. I don't know if it's true. But I'll march my mother to get a third dose as soon as she's eligible. In the meantime, I'm carrying extra boat shaped ASTM3 masks in my bag and restocking on hand sanitizer and watching BLACK WIDOW in VR at home.

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Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

https://news.yahoo.com/why-annual-covid … 24502.html

Yahoo Finance Video
Why annual COVID-19 booster shots might be unlikely
Thu, August 19, 2021, 3:01 PM

Dr. Peter Hotez, Co-Director of the Center for Vaccine Development at Texas Children’s Hospital and Dean of the National School of Tropical Medicine at Baylor College of Medicine, joins Yahoo Finance to discuss the latest on the coronavirus pandemic.
Video Transcript

ALEXIS CHRISTOFOROUS: Want to switch gears here now and talk about COVID and the vaccine, because we know the Biden administration announced this week that most Americans will be eligible for a COVID-19 booster shot in September, just a few weeks from now, after the CDC found vaccine effectiveness does decline over time. That is something we expected.

Joining us now is Dr. Peter Hotez, Co-Director of the Center for Vaccine Development at Texas Children's Hospital and Dean of the National School of Tropical Medicine at Baylor College of Medicine. We're also joined by our health reporter Anjalee Khemlani.

Doctor, thanks so much for being with us. I want to begin with what the Biden administration told us this week. US health officials now recommending we get this booster shot eight months after our second dose. Do you think this is going to be an annual thing, that we're just going to keep needing the booster shot in the very same way we get the flu vaccine every year?

PETER HOTEZ: Actually, I don't. I think we could be-- it's not one and done or two and done, but three and done. And here's why. When that vaccine was rolled out in December and January, the first two doses were spaced three to four weeks apart, three weeks for Pfizer-BioNTech, four weeks for Moderna. And that's because we needed to fully immunize older individuals as fast as possible, because we were losing 3,000 American lives per day and we had to avert any further tragedy. It was actually a very good decision.

The problem was when you did that there was a trade-off. The trade-off is when you give that kind of rapid pace, a one-two vaccination schedule, you don't get very good long-lasting protection, durable protection. So that basically bought us a third immunization right from the beginning. And that's what we're doing now. We're seeing this waning immunity in terms of decline in terms of preventing infection from over 90% to 40% to 50%.

And the worry, I think, is from Health and Human Services is that that's the tip of the spear, and we'll start seeing now a lot of breakthrough hospitalizations, hence the recommendation. But I think the messages should be that this third immunization was both predicted and predictable. And it looks like the response to that is quite impressive after you give that third immunization. I anticipate long-lasting protection, high levels of virus neutralizing antibody, resilience to the variants, and that may be it. So it's not impossible that we'll need annual boosters, I just don't see us heading that way for now.

This was who I referenced on the boosters.  My allergy doctor, a long-time immunology professional, told me this guy is one of the smartest there is.

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Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

US Marines killed in Kabul bombs.  Pentagon have been saying this is beyond dangerous.  That's why Biden wouldn't extend the date.  That's why he is only taking US citizens.  That's why he won't send helicopters all over the city for people.  There's no police or army in Kabul.  Just the useless Taliban on mopeds and pickups.  It's like being in the middle of The Walking Dead.  If I'm Biden, I tell the commanders to pick up the damn pace and get out of there ASAP.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

It sounds like a third dose would provide some very long lasting protection, but you'd conceivably need one again in 18 - 24 months.

**

Afghanistan is bad, but the current White House administration made a lot of predictions about low casualties and costs that would come with pulling out and those predictions have proven wrong.

**

Wondering how Slider_Quinn21 is faring with the Kleannara KF94s. I wear masks that are almost the same, but yesterday, I was wandering the park with my favourite actress and the air was hot, getting even hotter through my mask, causing my airways to narrow in response.

I ended up having to take off my KF94 equivalent with its dual droplet blocking layers and put on a thinner surgical mask with only one droplet blocking layer. This one, I could breathe through. I might have to wear these until fall weather arrives.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

ireactions wrote:

Wondering how Slider_Quinn21 is faring with the Kleannara KF94s. I wear masks that are almost the same, but yesterday, I was wandering the park with my favourite actress and the air was hot, getting even hotter through my mask, causing my airways to narrow in response.

I ended up having to take off my KF94 equivalent with its dual droplet blocking layers and put on a thinner surgical mask with only one droplet blocking layer. This one, I could breathe through. I might have to wear these until fall weather arrives.

I go out so infrequently that I haven't really used them enough.  The upper and lower flaps are tight across my face, creating a good seal (I assume) but they're small so they take a little bit of adjusting to get right. 

But I honestly only leave the house to pick up take out food (2-3 minutes) or have groceries/Target orders dropped in my car (where I usually don't interact with anyone enough to put on a mask at all).  With two kids and both of us working from home full time, it's pretty easy to social distance.

I did give some of them to my mom, who is working part time for the next few weeks.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

From the MCU thread:

Slider_Quinn21 wrote:

This can't help their case in the Scarlett Johansson case, but I'm assuming they'll make enough money where that won't matter.

I'm still not cool going to the theaters so I guess I'll be waiting.  I might risk it for Spider-Man: No Way Home because I can't imagine I'll make it 45 days without spoilers.  I'll have to just go on a weekday at noon or something.

I myself won't be going to theatres for awhile. But let me know what it's like these days!

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Yeah I think I'd only go midday on a weekday with a mask on.  Even for Spider-Man, I'm sure I can find a showing with only a couple of people 6+ feet away.  I figure that would be fairly safe.  I had in-person jury duty over the summer, and I was able to get by with those rules.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Well, when you go, please wear a Kleannara mask. I know they require some adjusting, but that's every mask! I myself am currently on surgical masks. It's 80 degrees F outside and my ASTM3 masks are just warming up the air too much. I am really making sure the masks clamp on my face with the cordlocks on the earloops, but that does mean adjusting them every time.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

I would absolutely wear my Kleannara mask and stay away from anyone.  I'll sit in the far corner if I have to smile