Re: Marvel Cinematic Universe by Slider_Quinn21

You know, if you haven't read the comic, you should really shut the fuck up about it seeing as you can't possibly speak to it with any knowledge. I've read the comic, I can say with authority that it's contextual memory alteration via -- wait, what?! What? Oh.

http://www.comicbookresources.com/artic … s/pageno=2

Uh. Writer Nick Spencer did a new interview where he talked about how the Cosmic Cube has altered history -- as opposed to memory. Reality has been rewritten to rework Cap's backstory into someone who has been a HYDRA agent all along. It's not memory alteration or mind control. It's time travel. I guess I misread the issue or misunderstood something or missed a line of dialogue.

Well. That was embarrassing. I guess having read the comic didn't help me much, either. Sorry, Informant. What a screw up!

Re: Marvel Cinematic Universe by Slider_Quinn21

I haven't commented on this specific story!!!

Oh...

Wait...

I don't kown whether I should be arguing or agreeing anymore. I'm confused.

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Re: Marvel Cinematic Universe by Slider_Quinn21

Informant won't like this:

http://www.superherohype.com/news/38039 … n#/slide/1

Another traditionally redheaded character possibly race-swapped.

Re: Marvel Cinematic Universe by Slider_Quinn21

Argh. Because redheads are expendable. sad

Whatever. I think the Marvel universe is fading anyway. Doctor Strange looks really lame, and the problem that they're going to have with Spider-Man is that he has been adapted many times over the years, unlike most of the Marvel characters. If they just release a typical, unremarkable Spider-Man movie, people will just stay home and watch their DVDs. This is a problem that Warner Bros is facing with Batman and Superman.

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Re: Marvel Cinematic Universe by Slider_Quinn21

I think it's hilarious that Informant is so far up DC's ass that CIVIL WAR's 1.152 billion in box office and adoring acclaim with two second-tier characters is a fadeaway while BATMAN VS. SUPERMAN's 873 million and middling reception with two cultural icons is some sort of transcendent rise to glory.

... YOU WERE ALL THINKING IT.

(Informant is still a brilliant writer, novelist and critic.)

186 (edited by Slider_Quinn21 2016-08-19 14:20:32)

Re: Marvel Cinematic Universe by Slider_Quinn21

My question is why they need to raceswap Mary Jane at all.  Why not just make it a new character?  I understand having to raceswap Johnny Storm or Wally West, but is Mary Jane crucial enough to have to include?  The did MJ, they did Gwen.  Create a new love interest.  Denise.  She's in Peter's class.  She's smart and fun and beautiful.  Done.

Re: Marvel Cinematic Universe by Slider_Quinn21

I wasn't criticizing their profits. smile

I just think that they've reached their high point in terms of story and pop culture appeal. Doctor Strange may appeal to the comic fans who know the character, but as someone who doesn't, the trailer just looked like a lamer version of Inception to me. And while Spider-Man is a great character, I think that using him will be more of a challenge than people are expecting.

Ultron didn't impress people.
I don't know many who are excited over Thor 3.
At this point, I think Guardians 2 is their best bet.

And I am not up DC's ass. I can be just as critical of their work. I just usually like it more.

We do agree that I'm brilliant though wink

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Re: Marvel Cinematic Universe by Slider_Quinn21

Thor 3 is going to get some extra buzz because they're mixing in Planet Hulk.  That's a story a lot of comic people would love to see, and I bet it's something that gets more buzz from casual audiences than a normal Hulk sequel.

Civil War did better as an Avengers 2 than Ultron did so while Ultron wasn't that big of a deal, Civil War made up for it.

I expect Doctor Strange will do well.  Not as well as the others but as well as Ant-Man.  It will depend on word of mouth.

Re: Marvel Cinematic Universe by Slider_Quinn21

I guess we'll see what happens. Maybe I'm just burned out.

Planet Hulk... Not being a Marvel guy, this means nothing to me. I guess it will be a surprise!


A rare picture of gloom for Marvel in the press... http://www.cheatsheet.com/entertainment … good.html/

I still disagree with some elements (Joss Whedon not being difficult to work with) but it is an unusually anti-Marvel tone.

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Re: Marvel Cinematic Universe by Slider_Quinn21

Back to the "black Mary Jane" story. 

Is it racist to ask that they just create a new character?  Because I've seen that accusation in the past, and it's not something I really understand.  For certain characters, I get it.  If you're trying to generate diversity among an established group (say, the Fantastic Four), then you have to race-swap someone.  Adding a new supporting character and having them assist the Fantastic Four wouldn't work, and swapping out Johnny Storm for a new black character doesn't work either.

For some, the answer is easier.  Hal Jordan was white.  Guy Gardner was white.  Kyle Raynor was white.  DC wanted a black Green Lantern so they made one.  And now, thanks to the Justice League cartoon, John Stewart is just as popular as any other Green Lantern.  Same with Miles Morales.  Peter Parker dies in the Ultimate universe, and he's replaced with a young black/Hispanic kid.  Now most comic fans know who he is.  It worked.

In some situations, the situation is a bit more lazy in my opinion.  Barry Allen, Jay Garrick, Wally West, and Bart Allen have all been the Flash.  But instead of adding a fifth Flash as a black man, they race-swapped Wally.  It's been shown that if you attach a new character to an existing brand, the new character can be successful.  But instead of elevating the new character to prominence, they altered Wally.

Now I get the challenges of creating a brand-new superhero.  For the most part, there aren't many popular new superheroes (black, white, or otherwise).  Almost all the successful Marvel and DC heroes are decades old. 

But my problem is with Mary Jane.  Mary Jane has been around for a while, and she's a key character in Peter's life.  But I don't know if she's crucial to the character of Peter Parker.  Yeah, he marries her in one continuity, but I don't think she *has* to be included for the character to work.  So why not do something different?  If they want Peter Parker to have a black girlfriend, that's great.  Comic movies do need more black women.

But why not create a new character?  Spider-Man: Homecoming is going to be a successful movie whether or not Mary Jane is in it.  It won't be made or broken by the female lead.  So why not try something new?

Re: Marvel Cinematic Universe by Slider_Quinn21

I don't think that it is racist. Comic book characters exist as images on a page. Certain elements of their look remain constant over the years because that is the only way for readers to connect to those characters. When they race swap, they remove everything that tells us who they are.

It doesn't always fail, but it fails more often than not. Race swapping is really no more viable than creating a new character. I think it does more harm than good, because it alienates the audience by showing them that the people creating the comic books don't respect the characters.


With TV shows and movies, I give a little more slack. I don't mind a black Perry White or an Asian Lana Lang (who was apparently playing white?). I just have to note that the redheads specifically are the ones that are swapped out. Maybe gingers don't sell well in foreign markets or something. It started off funny, but now it is just weird. I'm not going to stage a riot over it or anything, but it is weird.

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Re: Marvel Cinematic Universe by Slider_Quinn21

They clearly want to make a very diverse movie, and they should have just done Miles Morales.  It's the character and background they seem to want to portray, but I'm certain studios want the Peter Parker name recognition.  I don't think it's necessary to have the name, but studios latch on to stupid things because they think their consumers are stupid.

Re: Marvel Cinematic Universe by Slider_Quinn21

The name Peter Parker might sell.  Does the name Mary Jane Watson sell?  I'm sure some comic fans might be upset about a new character being invented, but they're seeing the movie regardless.  Non-comic fans won't know the difference.  They might've thought Gwen Stacy was a new character.

It's the same with Iris West in the Flash movie.  I know Iris is becoming like Nick Fury and known to new audiences as a black woman.  But other than its impact on Wally, who may or may not even appear in the DCEU, Iris has no impact on the story.  Barry's love interest could be a new character named Donna Williams and it wouldn't matter.

These are ancillary characters, and it really doesn't matter.  Even for main characters it doesn't matter.  It has always just seemed lazy to create diversity by race-swapping.

Re: Marvel Cinematic Universe by Slider_Quinn21

I think that adding new characters is fine, but if you remove a character that fans want to see, you're just making another mistake. Barry Allen and Iris West may not be on the Clark and Lois level, but comic fans still know them and will reject something that is not a proper adaptation.

I like Iris on the TV series, but it was a mistake to cast another black actress in the role, solidifying that one image. New Wally was rejected by fans in the comics, but they are possibly locking themselves into that rejected version on screen.

The whole thing is a mess at this point. They're trying to force diversity instead of just being diverse. They don't need to be trying this hard. It is just creating more drama than is necessary.

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Re: Marvel Cinematic Universe by Slider_Quinn21

I think Jimmy Olsen was the ultimate in bad adaptation. They race swapped, while also completely reimagining the character in every possible way. And now when you question it, people assume you're just upset about his race. It actually irritates me when I can't just forget who he is supposed to be. It's one reason why the series as a whole is hard to swallow.

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Re: Marvel Cinematic Universe by Slider_Quinn21

When adapting universes that were created long ago, when all the writers were white and mostly didn't concern themselves with diversity, you either end up with unrealistically white casts or you have to make some adjustments.  Either course will draw criticism.

Re: Marvel Cinematic Universe by Slider_Quinn21

As a Spider-Man obsessive, I cannot begin to express my complete and total indifference to Mary Jane being black. Mary Jane was created as a feminine representation of Stan Lee's extremely vague idea of what hippies were like, except his ignorance of drug culture led to him writing Mary Jane being a fountain of random non-sequiturs and making her name a euphemism for marijuana and presenting this as Mary Jane's natural personality whereas the hippies Stan based this character on were likely hallucinating on LSD and mushrooms.

Since then, Mary Jane has faded away and been replaced by various different characters with the same name and hair colour, so making Mary Jane black doesn't matter much to me when the original Mary Jane isn't in any way workable in this century.

198 (edited by Slider_Quinn21 2016-08-21 10:22:03)

Re: Marvel Cinematic Universe by Slider_Quinn21

Again, I have no problem with Peter having a black girlfriend.  Or Barry Allen having a black girlfriend.  White male - black female relationships need to be represented because they're usually ignored in media.  It's a great way to add a level of diversity that no one else seems to be showing.

My point is that Iris West and Mary Jane Watson don't have character identification that's relevant.  Mary Jane is an actress and she's Peter's girlfriend.  Iris is a journalist and she's Barry's girlfriend.  Those are their two biggest descriptors.  So why not let Mary Jane (and Gwen) be students at Peter's school, but in this universe, Peter chooses someone else.  The idea that Mary Jane has to be white is just as laughable to me as the idea that Mary Jane has to be Peter's soulmate.

When you create a new character instead of race-swapping, you show that creating a new character works.  The new black girlfriend would join the ranks of new black characters that were created and stayed around despite the fact that their name wasn't one that was already popular.

It is odd that almost all the race-swapping is white to black.  Very few are white to Hispanic, and even less are white to Asian.  In fact, I can think of more Asian characters that were shown as white than the opposite.  The latest census shows that 13% of the US population is black, 5% is Asian, and 17% is Hispanic.

Re: Marvel Cinematic Universe by Slider_Quinn21

Hollywood is far more likely to turn Asian characters white than the other way around.  See Last Airbender, Starship Troopers, Aloha, 21, Argo, Edge of Tomorrow, Ghost in the Shell, The Hunger Games, Star Trek Into Darkness, and many others.

Re: Marvel Cinematic Universe by Slider_Quinn21

I think that making a previously Caucasian character black allows SPIDER-MAN HOMECOMING to get some media buzz, make some headlines, spark some chatter and raise the profile in a way the casting wouldn't if they cast Dove Cameron or Sabrina Carpenter to be Mary Jane.

(Yes, I watch LIV AND MADDIE and GIRL MEETS WORLD. Arrested adolescent here.)

Re: Marvel Cinematic Universe by Slider_Quinn21

Ireactions, sit down before you click the following link...

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-v … mon-922236


Deep breaths. Don't get too excited!

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Re: Marvel Cinematic Universe by Slider_Quinn21

Yes!

Re: Marvel Cinematic Universe by Slider_Quinn21

I mean, obviously it is a sign that the studio has no faith in their original writer, and they are now panicking over what they've seen of this movie. I hear they're turning to a cartoon company to help produce the final cut.

That's what this means, right?


(I am joking of course)

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Re: Marvel Cinematic Universe by Slider_Quinn21

Or, alternatively, Marvel is so scared about the success of the BvS Ultimate Cut and Suicide Squad that they're going into full panic mode.  And since their movies are so cartoony, they turned to a comedic writer to make everything brighter and funnier.

Re: Marvel Cinematic Universe by Slider_Quinn21

I think that we can agree that this is obviously the end for their entire movie franchise. They'll probably have to start all over, if their company survives at all.

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Re: Marvel Cinematic Universe by Slider_Quinn21

They can probably salvage Ant-Man.  Everyone loves Ant-Man.

Re: Marvel Cinematic Universe by Slider_Quinn21

I think it's hilarious how so many articles highlight Dan Harmon's lack of superhero series when he was clearly writing COMMUNITY as a superhero show; the show tapped into the absurdity of a multi-genre superhero universe and treated each of the characters like superhero characters, often posing them to create iconic imagery.

Re: Marvel Cinematic Universe by Slider_Quinn21

The fact that he got no street creds for Abed alone boggles the mind.

At least a good writer is getting work out of Marvel's death spiral.

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Re: Marvel Cinematic Universe by Slider_Quinn21

The next season of Agents of SHIELD could be interesting, but I can't believe they're still trying to convince the world that Coulson is dead.  He's been working in the open for years now.  I could see how Joe Q Public doesn't know he's alive, but people *freaked out* at the idea of Bruce Wayne appearing in one random French cafe for five minutes in Dark Knight Rises. 

Coulson was apparently the big death in the biggest attack in history.  People don't recognize him?  And everyone in the government knows he's alive but Tony and company never figured it out?  Steve doesn't know?

Re: Marvel Cinematic Universe by Slider_Quinn21

Movie Coulson is dead. TV Coulson is alive. They may be played by the same actor, but they're different worlds. People just need to give up on the idea that the movie and TV worlds are the same.

Daredevil does not live in the same world as Agents of SHIELD

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Re: Marvel Cinematic Universe by Slider_Quinn21

I know why they did, but they shouldn't have included any movie characters in the show.  It should've been kept separate.  Ripples are fine, but there shouldn't be anyone major from the movies (except Fury) for these guys to interact with.

That way, it would be separate, which is what they want.

Instead, they're splitting hairs and it doesn't make sense.  Tony should know that Phil is alive.  So should Cap.  At the very least, those two should know.  And right now would be the perfect time to reveal that.  Cap is in the wind with half the team.  No one else on the team now even knew Coulson.  So either get RDJ to film a cameo on Skype (PHIL!  WHY DIDN'T YOU TELL ME YOU WERE ALIVE) or have Coulson say he just got off the phone with Stark and he was pissed.

Problem solved.  Saying that no one knows he's alive is stupid.  Even for the MCU.

Re: Marvel Cinematic Universe by Slider_Quinn21

Where was Thor during Civil War!?!?! Find out here!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPNBKT6JLSU

This is why I like the Marvel Universe. It doesn't avoid absurdity, it embraces it.

Re: Marvel Cinematic Universe by Slider_Quinn21

I saw that the other day.  Funny stuff.  I think the cast of these movies genuinely likes doing it.  It's going to be really interesting when all their contracts are up.  Chris Evans, after inferring that he'd stop after his contract is up (and maybe stop acting entirely) has indicated that he'd be interested in playing more Captain America.  I think RDJ will continue as long as they keep paying him.  And if those guys decide to quit, there's backups in place.

The movies may be for kids, but it's a really well-oiled machine.

Re: Marvel Cinematic Universe by Slider_Quinn21

I got Civil War from Redbox. I will watch it tonight. I still find the commercials strange and baffling, but hopefully the movie will actually make some sort of sense. We'll see!

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Re: Marvel Cinematic Universe by Slider_Quinn21

Interesting.  Well, I'm interested in seeing what you think.  I'm also looking to watch it again soon.  I saw a trailer today and it got me excited to see it again.

One thing: cracked did a photoplasty (which I can't link to right now) which points out the hypocrisy of Tony recruiting Peter to his side of "being open and honest with the public about superheroes" and then hands him this suit that shrouds his identity.

Its interesting because the Spider-Man stuff does seem to go against the rest of Tony's message.  There's clearly a difference between what Tony did at the end of Iron Man and what Peter would have to do, but I wonder if they could've alluded to the Peter Parker unmasking in the comics and done something dark with Tony in the mean time.

So Tony goes to Queens to get Peter.  Convinces him to go to Germany with him, and he convinces him that his moral argument is superior to Captain America's.  Cool.  But then Tony provides him a mask and helps him evade the curiosity of Aunt May.

Bug imagine this: Tony doesn't give him a suit.  He brings Peter along but doesn't give him a suit - maybe he upgrades his web shooters, but he's basically just in his civilian clothes (or maybe some body armor - no traditional mask).  And pretty much everyone (Team Cap and Team Iron Man alike) sees Peter and wonders why Tony would bring a kid to this battlefield, but Peter proves himself and they all sorta forget about it when the battle begins.

But then Peter gets in trouble and something happens to him (something falls on him?) and people think that he might be dead.  And Tony has this realization that he got this kid killed because of something he's not even sure he believes in.  Peter's okay, of course, but it sorta affects Tony for a minute.  And then, at the end, Tony delivers him a suit because he sorta understands that Peter can handle it but needs to be careful.

Could've been another way to handle Peter in the movie.

216 (edited by Informant 2016-09-15 21:46:46)

Re: Marvel Cinematic Universe by Slider_Quinn21

My solution: Don't have Spider-Man in the movie. He was only in it because someone thought it would be neat, but his presence presented more problems than it was worth. He is supposed to be an intelligent person, yet he goes into a battle against known heroes with absolutely no comprehension of what he is doing or why. His character could be deleted from the movie with only beneficial results.

As a whole, I'm not sure about him. Hot Aunt May is weird. Squeeky-voiced Beiber-Man... I know some people liked him, but I think he is the weakest big screen Spider-Man I've seen.


Look, we all know that when it comes to the Marvel movies, I'm not a huge fan. I think they're low quality in general, and the films are secondary to the merchandising. It's Disney. That said, I have also proven that I am capable of saying good things about them. I liked Guardians of the Galaxy. It was fun and entertaining, with a solid cast. I liked Ant-Man, because Paul Rudd is a fun guy and he carried the movie. I liked the first Iron Man. I liked the second Iron Man, but less. I didn't hate The First Avenger until they sold it out in order to build up The Avengers, rendering the movie useless. I didn't hate Winter soldier. When you get right down to it, I don't think these movies are great movies, but I only actually hated The Avengers movies, Thor 2 an Iron Man 3. And if we count TV shows, I only strongly dislike Agents of SHIELD, while thinking Jessica Jones was weak. But Daredevil is awesome.

So I am not saying this because of some weird need to hate on Marvel, but...


This movie was crap. Start to finish. Up and down.

It wasn't a story, so much as a series of high-concept scenes. Many of those scenes could be easily removed without damaging the plot. In fact, it would probably strengthen the plot. I was literally cringing from the useless stupidity during the airport battle, which was pretty much the selling point of the movie.

Character motivation was weak and inconsistent. Conflicts and character arcs were once again thrown in because they sounded cool in theory, while not helping the actual plot. The car chase after finding Bucky shouldn't have involved police. It should have been a much smaller, more personal conflict... as much of the movie should have been. Instead, we have a movie with heroes fighting heroes, all because none of them want to stop to have an actual conversation. And it's not because they're not willing to talk. They're talking plenty. They're just using those moments to make attempts at humor, rather than say "We have proof that Bucky wasn't responsible..."

I hate the trope of having entire conflicts revolve around the unwillingness of the writers to have characters speak. And yes, there was a moment in Batman v Superman that was guilty of this same thing, but it was a moment, not the entire plot of the movie.

It's impossible not to compare the movies, because the plots are very similar in many ways. In BvS, we have Superman being forced to answer for his supposed crimes. In this, we have the Avengers doing the same. Except, as they showed footage of those battles, I couldn't help but think it was a stretch to blame the Avengers in most of those cases. In the battle of NY, the Avengers stopped our own government from trying to nuke the city for some unknown reason.
In BvS, everything went into explaining why those characters were fighting and how the plot made sense. Everything was about the bigger story (especially the Ultimate Edition). There was reason and purpose and consideration and real character development. Civil War didn't bother with the little things like that.

So much motivation in this movie doesn't hold up. There were obviously scenes which the writers came up with and put on a board somewhere. Concepts for fights and ideas for cool shots. And the plot was secondary.

At the end of the movie, we have a huge fight between Iron Man, Cap and Bucky. For the life of me, I don't even know why Bucky was fighting. He supposedly carries this guilt. He is supposedly a good guy. Yet, he doesn't want to own his actions and it doesn't make sense! The scene would have been so much more dynamic and emotional if he didn't want to fight it out. Iron Man would be trying to kill him. Cap would be trying to save him. It would be this highly personal battle all around, but also a physical display of Bucky's internal struggle. Instead, we get another bland and generic fight scene. It's big and super, but mean nothing.

A lot of the movie seemed like it was yet another Tony Stark emotional meltdown, this time caused by Pepper leaving. I swear, the guy has been an emotional wrecking ball since Favreau left.

The movie suffers from a lot of the same problems as other Marvel movies. The big action scenes look like scenes from any useless action movie. The fight scenes usually don't let the choreography stand on its own, relying on silly tricks (shaky cam, while speeding up the footage, and throwing in useless CGI!) to sell a fight that honestly could have held its own with just good choreography. The CGI was pretty weak in some spots. There was no sense of weight or gravity to a bunch of the scenes, making it look like a cartoon. The lighting. The directing. But we've been through this. This is the stuff that they always cheap out on, but this is the stuff that turns a silly b-movie into a real film.

Was Chris Evans wearing a ton of makeup? He looked weird in some scenes.

The romance between Cap and Sharon Carter was awkward and kinda gross.

The bottom line is, there was a real story to tell here. There were some great character moments that were right there for the taking. There was emotion and humanity. And the people making the movie shot it in the head as they went about the business of plotting a big action sequence or bringing in as many characters as possible, whether they added to the plot or not.

This was easily the worst of the Captain America movies. It was about the same level as an Avengers movie. I'm kinda bummed. This movie felt more depressing to me than BvS, because it was all so senseless (and not the intentional way). Good guys destroying an airport and legitimately trying to kill each other (well, some of them. Some were apparently just doing it for the sake of goofing around) for no reason is so much worse than Superman causing damage while trying to save the world.


And people might tell me to lower my expectations, because this is a movie that an eight year old is going to. But with the amount of bad language, arms being blown off and good guys trying to murder their own friends, I don't see how this is a movie for kids. The PG-13 rating standards have really changed over the last several years.

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Re: Marvel Cinematic Universe by Slider_Quinn21

Informant wrote:

As a whole, I'm not sure about him. Hot Aunt May is weird. Squeeky-voiced Beiber-Man... I know some people liked him, but I think he is the weakest big screen Spider-Man I've seen.

They look to be doing a full-on Ultimate Spider-man which means we're likely to get a Green Goblin who's just a Hulk that breathes fire.  I just hope they don't follow the cartoon with Nick Fury mentoring a Spider-man who likes to make chimpanzee noises.

Re: Marvel Cinematic Universe by Slider_Quinn21

Informant, I honestly don't even know where to begin.  We've had our share of discussion on Marvel and DC, and I'm starting to wonder if you're allowing bias to affect your views on these movies.  I could go point-by-point, but I'm concerned we're just going to go in circles again.  I almost feel like you're doing a satire of the reviewers that torch DC movies because they aren't like Marvel.  Especially since you're using arguments that I've seen used (or that *I've* used) against movies like BvS and Suicide Squad.

The worst of the Captain America movies?  Worse than The First Avenger?  That's the movie, as far as I recall, that got you so mad about the MCU in the first place.  You called it a feature-length trailer for the Avengers. 

Could've been fixed by having the characters talk?  They do talk.  But the movie goes to great lengths to show that neither side is particularly right.  The Avengers do save people, but they do cause collateral damage.  They do need oversight, but the oversight could easily be just as bad as the people they're supposed to fight.  And there's tons of history to look back on for both sides.  I've said it earlier in the thread, but I felt like Tony's transformation from the guy at the Senate hearing in Iron Man 2 to the guy arguing for government oversight in Civil War is totally earned in my opinion.

Batman is the world's greatest detective but does almost no investigation into who Superman is.  A throwaway scene about a drone following Superman around in Man of Steel did more investigation than Batman did.  If Bruce had done the work that Lois did in the first movie, he'd realize that Clark Kent has been a pretty good guy his whole life.  End of movie.

Listen, I get it.  Marvel gets the benefit of the doubt and DC doesn't.  DC makes bigger effort to care about building something, and they've gotten hammered for it.  BvS and Civil War can make the same amount of money, and one is a failure and the other is a success.  It sucks to have to constantly defend these movies.  But all your reviews recently have been hyperbole - Suicide Squad is great, Civil War is crap. 

And, honestly, I don't think either of those reviews is what you really think.  Did you like Suicide Squad better?  Sure, and you're free to have that opinion.  But to give all DC movies 10/10 reviews and all Marvel 0/10 reviews makes you just as bad as the crazy people who do the opposite.

Just my $0.02.

Re: Marvel Cinematic Universe by Slider_Quinn21

Okay, but now you're just making stuff up and saying that it's my opinion. I have always argued that the frustrating thing about The First Avenger was the fact that it could have been a really good movie, but they threw it all away in the end in order to set up The Avengers.

I finally saw Winter Soldier this weekend. It was an okay movie. Certainly better than The Avengers, the Thor movies or Agents of SHIELD.

-- me, September 21, 2014

In September 2015, I commented on how the Ant-Man trailer looked bland. Fast forward and I'm saying that the movie was actually pretty fun to watch.

I'm constantly talking about Daredevil being good. I've talked about Agent Carter being fun to watch. To say that I give all DC movies 10/10 and all Marvel stuff 0/10 is simply not true. I am judging each movie on its own merits. In some cases, I've been pleasantly surprised (as you've pointed out, I was not totally on board with Man of Steel before I saw it).

And finally, when I summed up my thoughts on Suicide Squad, I said...

The movie isn't my new favorite superhero movie of all time or anything, but it has taken its place with the other DC offerings on my list of strong comic book movies that I will go back to again.

Which part of that sounds like another 10/10? In fact, I probably wouldn't even give BvS a 10/10. We've discussed a lot of the points that we disagree on, which makes it sound like I'm always defending every aspect, but I've also made it clear that it wasn't a 10/10. A great movie, sure, but I liked Man of Steel better.

The fact that we disagree on these movies means that I could say the same thing about you. You're constantly slamming the DC movies, saying that Man of Steel didn't do this right or BvS didn't do that right. I could imply that you have a bias and that you're going out of your way to slam the movie. But I understand that sometimes, people just have different points of view. I don't think that all of you have some devious plan to hate the DC movies and love the Marvel movies. It's just your opinion. It's not *wrong*, but I do strongly disagree with it.


You say that Civil War went to great lengths to show that neither side is particularly right, but that's not true. By the end of the movie, Tony is wearing villain clothes and recruiting a kid into a war that he has no business being involved in. Batman v Superman spent the entire movie maneuvering the characters into a place where their battle toward the end would make sense. Civil War didn't. The airport scene is a complete mess of storytelling. Here we have two teams of heroes completely destroying an airport, but why? They're not enemies. Half of the time, they're joking around with each other. They're not trying to hurt each other for real, which makes the whole scene completely stupid. It's one thing to cause damage while trying to save lives and stop a bad guy who wants to hurt people, but destroying an airport when half of the characters don't even seem to know why they're fighting each other makes absolutely no sense.

And then we have the Vision (or is it just Vision? I'm not clear on that) almost kill Rhodey, while actually trying to kill Sam makes the whole thing even more nonsensical. His laser beam thing missed the guy who has next to no body armor and hit the guy with the top of the line body armor, nearly killing him... yet they tried to play it off as though he wasn't actually trying to kill Falcon.

My brother told me that he thought the movie should have been called Thanksgiving Dinner: Family Squabble. That's about right.

The movie is a disjointed mess. The whole Sokovia Accords plot goes nowhere, because by the time the airport scene happens, the teams aren't even fighting over that anymore. They don't explain what is in that book of new rules. They don't explore the repercussions. They don't go into Scarlet Witch's actions and debate over whether killing 11 people while saving a 100 people in that same explosion justifies what she did.  They breeze by the actions taken in past movies but never dig into this very reasonable debate, because that wouldn't have a big flashy airport scene where they all battle each other. Instead, they move on to the Bucky story, which actually has very little to do with the  Sokovia Accords.

And if you want to talk about me contradicting myself, let's talk about your comments on BvS. You made comments about the lines of dialogue where it was made clear that they were fighting in abandoned areas, or that people had gone home for the night. You said something along the lines of it being a childish response to criticism of MoS. Yet in Civil War, we have the same thing happening. In fact, much worse, we have lines of dialogue trying to make light of or distract from weak storytelling (again I reference the "Turn him into a glider" line before the Vision tries to kill Falcon). They keep trying to explain that these people aren't actually trying to hurt each other, and yet they're destroying an airport! At least when Batman and Superman were destroying that empty building, they were actually engaged in real combat. Batman actually wanted to kill Superman.

My criticism of the movie is based on what was on screen. They had two plots which did not come together, and neither of which were properly explored. They tried passing them off as one plot, but it didn't work. They jammed as many characters into the movie because it would look cool, but the truth is that most of them had no business being in the movie, and taking them out would have only strengthened the arcs of the characters who did belong. They wasted time and energy on high-concept battle scenes when what they should have been paying attention to was telling the legitimate character stories, which would allow real conflict to arise naturally.

That final fight with Cap, Iron Man and Bucky could have been amazing if they had focused on the characters instead of the action. If they had developed the conflict between Tony and Bucky more naturally throughout the movie... we all knew that Bucky killed Tony's parents. There was no need to put that reveal at the "shocking twist" point in the movie.

There was such a better movie to be made here. Two better movies, actually. The Sokovia Accords would have been a great plot to explore, with Scarlet Witch's actions being the centerpiece for the debate. But neither of those better movies were made. Instead we get two halves of different movies, which don't work together to tell one complete story.


Watch the scene where Steve kisses Sharon and tell me that that moment was natural and earned, and not just awkward and gross. Tell me why it's fair to criticize Batman for not discovering Clark earlier, but it's not fair to criticize Bucky for not putting his hands over his ears and humming while that dude was trying to activate him.

What I'm criticizing this movie for is having the very good chance to make a very good movie, and throwing it away in favor "wouldn' t this be cool?", which is the same mindset that took down the Avengers movies.


Imagine this movie without hot Aunt May or Tony going to get Spider-Man. How much damage does that actually do to the actual plot of the movie? Imagine the movie without Ant-Man, or Hawkeye. How much damage does that actually do? Imagine the movie without the SWAT team, helicopter and police cars as Cap, Black Panther and Falcon chase Bucky. How much damage does that do? Imagine no airport scene. How much damage does that do?

With BvS, most of the damage to the movie came from taking scenes out when they should have been kept in. That's not just my opinion, it's what most people are saying about the movie at this point. But you can take a big red marker to the Civil War script and walk away with a movie that's shorter, cheaper and stronger than what we got on screen.


As I said, these are my opinions. They're formed by my brain, watching the movie from my point of view. We obviously have different points of view and I'm cool with that. You should be too.

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Re: Marvel Cinematic Universe by Slider_Quinn21

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZ3VQkK6Upo

Honest Trailers for Civil War!

Re: Marvel Cinematic Universe by Slider_Quinn21

Don't get me wrong.  I'm not mad at all, and I respect your opinion as much as anyone's.  I'm just concerned that you're allowing this whole DC/Marvel thing to cloud your judgment.  If you honestly think you aren't, then that's absolutely fine.  You're a lot better at analyzing plot/movies/characterization than me, and when you and I disagree, I *often* wonder if I'm wrong.

They were talking about this stuff on the Weekly Planet.  Both guys have really enjoyed Marvel as opposed to DC, and DC people get mad at them (even accusing them of getting paid by Marvel to bash DC.  They laugh at that because they don't think they're big enough for anyone on either side to care).

We're three movies into the DCCU.  There's one that most people like (Man of Steel), one most people don't like (BvS) and one that is in the middle.  When the MCU was at this stage, they had one that most people like (Iron Man), one that most people don't like (the Incredible Hulk), and one that is in the middle (Iron Man 2).  If the DCCU was 10 movies deep when the MCU started, we'd be saying "wow, Iron Man was pretty good but fairly standard, and their last two haven't been very good."  It's all about perspective, in a way.

Rotten Tomatoes

Iron Man - 94 (critics) 91 (audience)
Incredible Hulk - 67 (critics) 71 (audience)
Iron Man 2 - 72 (critics) 72 (audience)

Man of Steel - 55 (critics) 75 (audience)
Batman v Superman - 27 (critics) 64 (audience)
Suicide Squad - 26 (critics) 67 (audience)

Three movies in, there's not much difference in fan ratings.  It's lower for DC, but it's not much lower.  It's just, as you've said all along, a *HUGE* disparity between audience and critics. 

It's just a matter of the MCU doing it first and this perception that Marvel has their s*** pulled together and DC doesn't.  Now, to be fair, no Marvel movie had an audience rating lower than 71 (Incredible Hulk).  DC already has two.  So it's not just a conspiracy of critics. 

I'll take a look at your actual points later.  Just wanted to make sure I said something before you thought I was actually mad.  Didn't mean to put words in your mouth - I often resort to hyperbole in times like this, and for that I apologize smile

Re: Marvel Cinematic Universe by Slider_Quinn21

The trailer was pretty good. And it reminded me of another problem! When what's-his-name bad guy went to drown that other bad guy in the laundry room sink, the dude's mouth was totally above the sink line. He could have hung there forever and been totally fine if he wasn't sloshing around in the water.

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Re: Marvel Cinematic Universe by Slider_Quinn21

For the record, I do always enjoy our back and forth here as well. We obviously have different points of view and I think we've been doing this long enough to argue our points without anyone feeling like they're being attacked. It makes the movies more fun, I think.

Eventually, we will agree on a movie that we like. smile

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Re: Marvel Cinematic Universe by Slider_Quinn21

I just took one of those silly online quizzes, to find out which side of the brain I use more. Am I more artistic and imaginative, or rational and analytical?

Turns out, I'm 50/50. I wonder if that's what my problem is here. I can't just sit back and let the story be fun. It also has to make sense to me, or else it isn't fun at all.

I promise, I don't do it consciously. smile

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Re: Marvel Cinematic Universe by Slider_Quinn21

I watched episode 1 of Luke Cage. It was pretty slow and boring. I will give it a few more episodes to grab me. I was disappointed, because he was a high point on Jessica Jones. There was a weird disconnect between his role on her show and how he behaved on his... Then again, he wasn't even consistent through the one episode I've watched of his show.

The directing was pretty weak too. I have heard a lot of good things about the show, so I'm hoping that it picks up.

I have to say though, whoever decided to cast a well  known actress (Alfre Woodard) in two different roles within the MCU, in the same year (!) should be fired. Are they even pretending to be connected anymore?

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226 (edited by Slider_Quinn21 2016-10-16 00:46:35)

Re: Marvel Cinematic Universe by Slider_Quinn21

I haven't started it yet and probably won't for a while.  I've liked the Netflix series so far, but they need to cut back from 13 episodes.  Daredevil (both seasons) and Jessica Jones have struggled with pacing for that many episodes.  I've read Luke Cage suffers from the same issues.

Re: Marvel Cinematic Universe by Slider_Quinn21

I don't think that Daredevil dragged nearly as badly as Jessica Jones did, but I agree that they could probably all do with less. Maybe not set a strict number of episodes. Let the writers map it out and see how many scripts they end up with before they set a number for the season.

I don't think that there is a reason that they *couldn't* do 13 episodes. That's still not a huge number for a TV show. Maybe it's got less to do with the number than the way they're going about plotting the series. Maybe Jessica Jones could have helped a client along the line, or something. If Veronica Mars can do a full network season, Jessica Jones should be able to do 13.

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Re: Marvel Cinematic Universe by Slider_Quinn21

Absolutely.  I don't know why Jessica Jones wasn't more procedural.  I think it was Alan Sepinwall who said that Killgrave should've developed more slowly.  She handles a handful of cases throughout the first half of the season that all point toward Killgrave.  Then the second half of the season revolves around trying to find and capture/kill him.  Then there would've been less ridiculous moments of them catching him and him constantly getting away.

Re: Marvel Cinematic Universe by Slider_Quinn21

Halfway through Luke Cage. Holy crap, this is boring. It's like watching cold molasses ooze down the side of a statue, while 1970's slow jazz plays in the background.

The episode count could have easily been cut... By maybe 12 episodes.

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Re: Marvel Cinematic Universe by Slider_Quinn21

We don't talk about it much, but I think Agents of Shield has really found its footing.  I actually look forward to watching it each week, and I think it's a lot of fun.  It's annoying that the movies don't care about it, and it's crazy that AoS takes place in the same universe as Daredevil.  But for what it is, I think it's a lot of fun.  Ghost Rider was a fun story, LMD was zany but allowed for some great character work, and I think Agents of Hydra will be pretty cool too.

Bringing back (spoiler) is upsetting, but hopefully they do it right.

Re: Marvel Cinematic Universe by Slider_Quinn21

I haven't watched the show in months. I started this season watching, but eventually forgot to watch and didn't care. Then I went and watched an episode and it just seemed stupid, so I never went back. I never got past the Ghost Rider story.

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Re: Marvel Cinematic Universe by Slider_Quinn21

I mean, I don't see it as any worse or better than any of the DC/CW shows.  The characters that are still on the show are good, and I like them.  And the show is fun - the action is usually pretty good for TV, and the narrative is usually compelling.

What I've noticed is that they're sorta moving into their own territory.  They don't name-drop the Avengers as much, and when they do, it's usually just in relation to Coulson (like when he talks about getting stabbed by Loki).  They aren't just a clean-up crew for whatever the other movies are doing.  While they're doing a lot of magic this year, I'm pretty sure they haven't had a single mention of Dr. Strange or anything related to him.  At the same time, it feels like the Marvel universe, and it wouldn't be bizarre to have more cross-pollination if that's what the movie side wanted.

But since they don't, I like that the show isn't just filling the gaps of the Marvel movies.  It's its own thing.  And it's a fun show.

Re: Marvel Cinematic Universe by Slider_Quinn21

I finally got through Luke Cage.  60% of it was well done, engaging, but 40% of it was downright awful.  The copy Misty I think was the best character on it.  Better than Jessica Jones, which was unwatchable, but not by much.  Hopefully Iron Fist and then Defenders return to Daredevil levels.  However, I would agree with Info, the lack of storytelling is really amazing.  Stranger Things got it right, in and out in 8 episodes.  Same with The OA, another great show.  10-13 is just too much.

Saw the first couple episodes of Legion, it's all over the place, but I'm getting it and will keep watching.

Re: Marvel Cinematic Universe by Slider_Quinn21

Well, the Defenders is only going to be 8 episodes, but I'm pretty sure the contract with Netflix was for 60 episodes total (13 of each of the primary shows and 8 Defenders) so they might not have had a choice in the matter....even if they realized they didn't have enough material for 13.

Although I blame that on writing.  There's tons of stories these guys can tell in 13 episodes.  There are a lot of great network shows that did/do 20+ episodes, and there are a *ton* of great shows that do 13.  There's no magic number of episodes, and all these characters have decades of material to work with.

235 (edited by Grizzlor 2017-02-22 11:24:59)

Re: Marvel Cinematic Universe by Slider_Quinn21

They're way over 60.  2 Daredevil, Jessica, Cage, Fist, and Punisher would be 78, and then Defenders would be 86.

Re: Marvel Cinematic Universe by Slider_Quinn21

When it comes to the Marvel shows on Netflix, I don't think that it's necessarily the number of episodes that is the problem. Daredevil hasn't bored me at all. I think Jessica Jones could have been a better series with four or five episodes that were just her doing her job and showing us that she is a detective. Veronica Mars had this format right. They had major, heavy arcs, but each episode usually had its own smaller mystery as well.

Jessica Jones would probably be better off having mostly arc episodes, but with a few detective stories mixed in so that they didn't just repeat themselves (over and over and over), and so they could establish the abilities of the character (as a detective).


Luke Cage, nothing could help. It was like watching paint dry on cold molasses that had grass growing through it. Horrible storytelling. The slow jazz feel did nothing to help their lack of plot. Their arc was all over the place (three primary villains who could have been stopped by Luke in about five minutes). It was just a mess.


Agents of SHIELD, I have never been able to connect with. The characters have always struck me as characters, or actors playing characters. They've never had any chemistry or personality, or anything natural about them. The way they talk is unnatural, the way they are directed through the episodes is unnatural. It's just always been a totally hollow series for me. Even when they had a chance to do something interesting, having Fitz's brain damaged, they didn't even find a clever way to fix it or present the struggle. It was totally disingenuous (much like Felicity being shot on Arrow, during that season that we shall never talk about again).
I just don't get the sense that anyone making the show has ever actually cared about it, or taken it seriously. It's always been paint-by-numbers, visually speaking. And most of the time, you could probably switch around character names in the script and you'd never know it from the dialogue. So few of the characters have unique voices, outside of their basic character descriptions.

On The Flash, which is an absurd show, the actors seem to take their work seriously and there is real chemistry between cast members. The effort that is put into creating the visual style of the show is evident. The show isn't always brilliantly written, but there is always something genuine about each episode.

Likewise with Arrow, when it's done well, there is legitimate chemistry between the actors. There is legitimate effort put into the look and feel of the show.

But I will give you Legends of Tomorrow and Supergirl. They are similar to Agents of SHIELD in a lot of ways. smile

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Re: Marvel Cinematic Universe by Slider_Quinn21

I don't know if Punisher or the second season of Daredevil could toward the original contract for the Netflix shows.

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Re: Marvel Cinematic Universe by Slider_Quinn21

Informant wrote:

I don't know if Punisher or the second season of Daredevil could toward the original contract for the Netflix shows.

Yeah, I'm guessing that's a new contract.

Regarding the characters on Agents of Shield, I think they've grown into their roles.  They weren't entirely sure what to do with Daisy/Skye, but I think her progression has been mostly organic.  Coulson has been Coulson.  And they've humanized May to the point where she's a character you can sorta understand, especially this season.  Putting Fitz and Simmons together has humanized them to where they aren't just the science team.  I think Mac is a pretty cool character, and putting him with Yo-Yo has shown off his depth.

When you listen to Chloe Bennet talk about how they're virtually ignored by the MCU, you see how proud she is of the show and how disappointed she is that it doesn't get treated the same way.  And I know you don't like LoT or Supergirl, but I think there's a place on TV for those kind of shows - something just engaging enough but also fun.  I think, at it's best, AoS can be as good as Flash or Arrow.  I think Amell and Gustin are just more charismatic and can carry a show.  As much as I like the character of Coulson, he's not strong enough to be the lead, and the ensemble isn't strong enough for it to be completely engaging.

But when it's good, it's pretty good.  And there've been fewer and fewer bad moments the last season or two.  It might not matter because it's on the bubble, and Marvel might want to focus on the Inhumans TV show and their Netflix shows.  But we'll see.

Re: Marvel Cinematic Universe by Slider_Quinn21

I know I have a reputation for not liking fun shows or just silly entertainment, but I actually do. I like comedies, like Man in the High Castle, The Walking Dead, and Dexter, as well as the more serious shows...

smile

But seriously, I do like some goofy shows. I just think that I have to feel some amount of care when I'm watching it. To me, when I watched Agents of SHIELD for the 3.4 (or whatever) seasons, I just saw people getting a paycheck. I saw billboards for whatever movie was coming out, or whichever phase of the MCU plan was about to kick in. They never created a world that I could believe in. And that might just be me, but it is what it is. The same is true with Supergirl, which I honestly don't even think they try with. And it's the same with LoT, except Legends has some chemistry between some of the actors which can make it fun at times, despite the horrible, lazy writing.

I do have a place in my life for shows that I just watch because they're silly fun. I actually really like Fuller House, which a lot of people probably wouldn't expect, but there you go.

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Re: Marvel Cinematic Universe by Slider_Quinn21

I TRIED watching Agends of SHIELD back when Agent Carter was paired with it.  I just couldn't.  Nothing against it, but it reminded me of how TV was produced 15, 20, 25 years ago.  That's actually a good thing, but 20-something episodes series are REALLY a pain to keep up with, and the story/characters didn't catch me enough.