Topic: The Kromagg Dynasty makes no sense

How many Kromagg soldiers would need to be left on each Earth to keep it subjugated?  The kromaggs aren't genocidal, they keep some humans alive as slaves.  Our Earth has about seven billion people living on it. Even if half were killed it would require tens of millions of soldiers, maybe over 100 million, to keep the humans from revolting and overthrowing them.  We have 65 million military and paramilitary personnel on our Earth now without it being a brutal dictatorship.

The kromaggs all come from one Earth, which they shared with humans.  Assuming there are four billion kromaggs and half are soldiers (an absurdly high estimate, but whatever) they might be able to control a couple dozen dimensions if they could conquer them all.  But each one they conquer makes it that much harder to take the next, as a large number of soldiers have to be left on the previous world.  If they can conquer each Earth with a 2:1 troop advantage, since the worlds are caught unaware and the kromaggs have superior technology, they would still be able to take no more than about 20.  They could expand that number if they concentrate on worlds with lesser technology and/or populations, but we've seen no evidence that they do that.

There's no way they could have conquered 150 worlds, as they claim, unless the vast majority of them are uninhabited like Outpost 113 originally was.

2 (edited by Slider_Quinn21 2016-10-11 08:39:26)

Re: The Kromagg Dynasty makes no sense

Well, I think it depends on a couple factors, and season 4 isn't a great resource for answering either question:

- (An old standard) - How does branching work?

- What kind of technology do the Kromaggs have?

- (Secret third question) - what is the definition of "conquer?"

Let's start with technology.  You're right in the sense that technology and surprise would make an invasion pretty easy.  The Kromaggs could send in human slaves (or even their own scouts, if properly disguised) to scout the world - find the military powers, and strike.  They could slide wherever they want and wipe out military bases with very little damage.  Imagine a Pearl Harbor-like attack from a Japan we didn't even know existed on a global scale.  The US, China, Europe, Russia, the Middle East, India/Pakistan wiped out simultaneously.  It'd take a coordinated attack, but I'm not even sure it'd take that many troops.

So invasion is easy.

Now let's talk about what "conquer" means.  Does conquering mean that they held the area indefinitely?  Or would it count as conquering if they simply took control for a long-enough time to take what they wanted (slaves/resources) and get out?    When they say they've conquered 150 worlds, are they still maintaining a presence in all 150?

And if they maintain an indefinite presence, does that necessarily mean that all soldiers on the conquered Earths are Kromaggs?  Look at the world in the USA show Colony.  Aliens (allegedly) invaded and conquered the Earth.  Then they set up a provisional government led by human traitors.  Not a single alien boot on the ground, and the Earth is still conquered.  If the Kromaggs used mind control or simply the threat of additional force, would that be enough?  Would Kromagg weapons in human traitor hands be enough to hold the worlds?

And if it was, could a skeleton crew of Kromaggs (skeleton being as few as possible - a million?  less?) hold the Earth with advanced-enough technology?  In Colony, there are drones all over the place.  Could that work to keep an Earth "conquered?"

Now let's talk about one of my favorite topics - branching.  As far as I'm aware, branching happens all the time with each decision.  Whether it's only big decisions (George Washington is shot or not) or minor decisions too (do I get a chicken or steak in my burrito) is up for debate, but either way, it's decision-based.

And the human/Kromagg decision was a looooong time ago.  Enough time for millions of human-led worlds to be created.  Presumably, that would also mean that there would be enough branching from Kromagg-led worlds to create millions of Kromagg-led worlds.  I always assumed that the Kromagg dynasty was made up of thousands of Kromagg worlds that united.  If that's the case, there's a nearly-unlimited source of additional troops to hold (way more than) 150 worlds.

"Kromagg Prime" implies that it's the main homeworld of the Kromaggs, but our sliders call our world "Earth Prime" arbitrarily.  To Logan, her Earth would be "Earth Prime" and ours would be "that weird Earth where the trains suck."  So I always thought it was just that type of naming.

(Please note that there's a chance that almost all my arguments are invalidated by season 4, which I haven't seen in a really long time).

Re: The Kromagg Dynasty makes no sense

It's the Independence Day scenario.  You destroy the major cities, leave civilization in ruins, with far superior weaponry and technology.  Perhaps even infect them with disease to drastically lessen the population.

Re: The Kromagg Dynasty makes no sense

None of the Season 4 Kromagg makes much sense now that we put on our thinking caps.
The Kromagg Dynasty envisioned by Torme and created by him in the episode "Invasion" would make so much more sense. Everything the Kromaggs do and what Mary tells Quinn could all be a mind game and deception.  Maybe that one world that the Sliders slide into at the beginning of the episode could be the only invasion they have mounted.

Everything about her being sent to Kromagg homeworld and raised to be the interpreter could be just lies, lies and more lies. The thought of them sliding for at least ten years is possible but the conquest of so many worlds with billions of emotional and violent homo sapiens dominating them would be a real challenge to keep subjugated.  Like Bonaparte in Spain, Germany in occupied Europe and Russia, the occupation troops would be constantly fighting "insurgents" and the drain on their resources would be huge.

Which brings me to the conclusion that Season 4 Kromaggs are just not logical and make zero sense.  Even the concept of breeding camps is stupid. A society as advanced as theirs would not have to resort to rape to procreate their species. they would simply use other forms and technology like artificial insemination, harvest female eggs, store them then fertilize them with the sperm donated by their soldiers.

Re: The Kromagg Dynasty makes no sense

Perhaps the breeding camps are where they use humans as surrogates, since Kromagg women die when they give birth.  Kromagg egg, fertilized by Kromagg male, but gestating in a human female.

Re: The Kromagg Dynasty makes no sense

But there's no evidence that Kromagg Prime is the only Kromagg world, right?  And it sorta goes against the idea of branching.  Unless Kromagg worlds don't branch for whatever reason.

Re: The Kromagg Dynasty makes no sense

Slider_Quinn21 wrote:

But there's no evidence that Kromagg Prime is the only Kromagg world, right?  And it sorta goes against the idea of branching.  Unless Kromagg worlds don't branch for whatever reason.

I was going off of what Quinn's double says in The Other Slide of Darkness.  The Kromaggs started sliding and found nothing but world after world dominated by Homo Sapiens.

Also, over five seasons the Sliders landed on dozens and dozens of worlds.  The only other one we saw that had native Kromaggs was the one Isaac Clark took them to in Revelations, where again they shared the world with humans.

Re: The Kromagg Dynasty makes no sense

But, statistically, that's sorta ridiculous.  It's like walking out your front door and basing your entire opinion on the universe based on what you see.  There are infinite worlds.  The Kromaggs could've sent a million people through a million wormholes once a day for a hundred years, and they'd barely scrape the surface on the number of worlds there are.

I prefer to think of the multiverse in terms of the Earth itself, and worlds that you can slide to are all pretty similar to the ones around it.  The Sliders go to a ton of worlds, but there's not a ton of key differences.  Almost all evolved life.  Almost all evolved  (identically evolved) humans.  Almost all evolved pretty similarly in terms of language and culture.  Statistically, you should be able to slide a lifetime and not see more than one world where the United States exists in the form we know it (considering how insignificant the US is in the grand scheme of the universe).

So in my example, the Sliders spend their entire time sliding in one part of one city.  Humans evolved.  Everything is generally pretty similar to the worlds around them.  Some minor political differences but generally the same.  The sliders' timer is the equivalent of walking.

The Kromaggs are in a different part of the city.  Still mammals.  Still bipedal.  Still primate-evolved.  But not humans...so it's a different part of the same city.  To get to the other part of town, you'd need something else.  A car.  A train.  A taxi.  Something Quinn never developed.  Maybe (some) Kromaggs did.

In other parts of the world, there are other cities.  Dominant life that evolved from fish.  Or dinosaurs.  Or something completely different.  This would definitely take a train or a car or a plane.

Then there's other parts of the world where life either doesn't exist or doesn't exist in a form we'd recognize or understand.  You'd need something really strong (plane, ship, spacecraft) to get to that part of the world.

In my example, Kromagg prime would actually be in the human part of town which is why humans could slide there and Kromaggs could only slide to "human" worlds.

So the way I understand branching would lead me to believe that there are just as many human worlds as Kromagg worlds and mermaid worlds and dinosaur worlds.  The Sliders didn't interact with them because their technology limited them to the area they could "walk" to.  And it would only require the creation of better tech to see what else the multiverse could show.

Re: The Kromagg Dynasty makes no sense

Per Slider_Quinn21 reasoning:
to take it further, the timer operates on a unique frequency and the worlds that the sliders see and slide into are worlds that are highly similar to Earth Prime as given that there are infinite number of worlds and with the unique frequency the timer operates on there would be other worlds that are so different from ours, one where dinosaurs ruled, or differently evolved species they just on a different  "wave length" and it would be impossible for the timer to reach such a world...

Lets say there are infinite worlds with Kromaggs as the dominant species but those worlds are on a different wave length. Hench that would explain why we never met other Kromaggs. 
I submit to you that perhaps the Kromaggs managed to tap into other frequencies and thus were able to slide into one of these different worlds , ie ones dominated by homo sapiens to name one...they would encounter the dinosaur worlds and other uninhabited worlds.

Just a theory but there's plenty to go around...

Re: The Kromagg Dynasty makes no sense

Even if they did find other world with Kromaggs, that doesn't mean they would automatically join the Dynasty.  Think about what the reaction would be on our Earth if humans claiming to be from another dimension suddenly appeared in highly advanced ships.  How many people would support becoming part of their empire?

Re: The Kromagg Dynasty makes no sense

pilight wrote:

Even if they did find other world with Kromaggs, that doesn't mean they would automatically join the Dynasty.  Think about what the reaction would be on our Earth if humans claiming to be from another dimension suddenly appeared in highly advanced ships.  How many people would support becoming part of their empire?

You're watching this election, right?

MAKE THE MULTIVERSE HUMAN AGAIN.

Re: The Kromagg Dynasty makes no sense

If they conquer a world and send every human to a processing world, where they all get a kill switch implanted, then you could subjugate the entire planet and leave one Kromagg, or maybe not even. Have a few humans whose eyes you watch through from the main world. I mean, it's still a stupid goal, but that's how you could conquer a bunch of worlds with minimal kromaggpower (as opposed to manpower).

Also, while the rules within a universe can change, the frequency at which they exist must remain similar so they can all coexist. Like, their 3 dimensional rules are their own, but the 4th dimensional rules can't be changed by them. At which point shop you need is an exponential dial for accessing frequencies of all alternate worlds.

Re: The Kromagg Dynasty makes no sense

choanata wrote:

If they conquer a world and send every human to a processing world, where they all get a kill switch implanted, then you could subjugate the entire planet and leave one Kromagg, or maybe not even. Have a few humans whose eyes you watch through from the main world. I mean, it's still a stupid goal, but that's how you could conquer a bunch of worlds with minimal kromaggpower (as opposed to manpower).

And depending on the main goal of the Kromaggs in "occupying worlds", then it might be even easier.  If they just want to conquer and leave, that's easy.  They get to add a tally mark to their name without expending any resources.  If they want to take up resources and leave, then they could also do that.  You sneak attack, grab everything you need as quickly as possible, and leave before any resistance can be formed.

But even if they wanted to hold worlds just to hold them, technology can fill in many of the gaps that would typically require "kromaggpower" - and if humans decided to launch guerrilla campaigns across the world...then that's fine.  Even if they got a stronghold on the planet, the Kromaggs could temporarily divert resources, wipe out the resistance, and regain control.

Re: The Kromagg Dynasty makes no sense

I wonder about the Kromaggs. Everyone remarks how the Season 4 versions lose all their mystique and they become generic thugs.

But the truth is that the Kromaggs were simply Nazis in "Invasion," it's just that Torme's script made sure that we mostly see them from the sliders' perspective, and they're kept unknowable, distant and terrifying. Once you get up close and start revealing personal backstories, making each Kromagg an individual character and losing the disturbing uniformity of the Kromaggs, you run the same risk of taking the eerily unknown and rendering it knowable, commonplace and dull. And that's a problem even before you start asking about branching and multiple versions of the Kromaggs.

So, ignoring all of Season 4, how would you address the Kromaggs? How do you maintain their mystery? Furthermore, how do you defeat the Kromaggs in the event of needing to wrap up the story and how do you address the issue of branching where mere interdimensional travel alone should create infinite variations on them?

My proposal: there are no Kromaggs. There is only one. The first Kromagg experiments in sliding caused the destruction of their home Earth and ripped all their variants out of reality, leaving behind only one -- a Kromagg who became unstuck like Dr. Oberon Geiger. Unlike Dr. Geiger, this Kromagg found a way to create doubles of himself -- using dimensional mirroring to generate copies who would be anchored in reality. Over time, he created enough doubles to form an army while creating a hive mind between them all -- so the entire Kromagg Dynasty of billions is simply one consciousness spread across multiple beings. Furthermore, this hive mind has come to the conclusion that it's the only living being in reality that is 'real,' everything else is simply a quantum possibility that need not be granted consideration, empathy or understanding.

And then there comes the issue: how would you defeat this hive mind? I'd suggest a psychological attack. Assuming SLIDERS stayed on track and didn't blow up any regular cast members -- maybe around Season 3 or 4, I'd have an episode in which the sliders are hit with a reality warping weapon and spend an episode in our reality where their lives are a TV show. In some future episode, during a mental attack on the sliders, they deliberately 'upload' their memories of this Earth where the Kromaggs are a fictional creation into the Kromagg hive mind. The idea that human writers of fiction could create the Kromaggs causes the hive mind's sense of self to implode and collapse and every Kromagg in every reality becomes catatonic due to an existential crisis.

My other idea is that the sliders would rally an army of fat craving zombies, rock star vampires, giant radioactive slugs, killer robots, malicious amusement parks, cybernetically enhanced pilots, Dream Masters, fire-breathing dragons, intelligent flames, wizards, psychics, animal-human hybrids, breeder parasites, dinosaurs, Morlocks and super-intelligent snakes to fight the Kromaggs.

Re: The Kromagg Dynasty makes no sense

You keep the mystery by limiting their appearances.  One or two episodes per season, max.  We had seven Kromagg episodes in Season Four, eight if you count Asylum.

Create a writers bible for them, so that everyone knows who they are, what they do, and why.  All we know about them from Seasons 2 & 3 are what they told the Sliders in Invasion, which may not be true, and what alt-Quinn said in The Other Side of Darkness, which may not be accurate since he's lost his mind.

Re: The Kromagg Dynasty makes no sense

The problem with using them at all is that the mystery will always fade away.  When you create a villain like the Kromaggs or the Borg, they're supposed to seem insurmountable.  That's why it's so thrilling to see our heroes escape at the end.  Like Invasion and Q Who, our heroes don't *win*, but they're lucky enough (with help) to escape to live another day.  But the threat is always there that they'll come back.

The problem with an enemy like that is that a) you've set yourself up where they have to come back (Chekov's gun), and b) each time you use them, the magic will fade away.  Our heroes will be more prepared the second time, but if they escape with their lives each time, luck/help can't keep getting all the credit.  Maybe the odds weren't insurmountable.  Maybe the villain wasn't that good in the first place.  It's why the Kromaggs aren't able to do much damage to the Sliders, even though they'd conquered hundreds of worlds.  It's why the Borg slaughtered everyone at Wolf 359 but couldn't destroy Voyager.

I think that's why Torme didn't want to do it.  It's a Pandora's box that would end up being less fun no matter what.

But I don't see why them being fallible makes them any less scary.

Re: The Kromagg Dynasty makes no sense

If you recall, the Peck/Dial braintrust decided to reinsert the Kromaggs as the chief bad guys, and as they were full of plenty of lazy thoughts, this is what you got.