Re: Marvel Cinematic Universe by Slider_Quinn21

Legion is good. I like that one a lot, but I have talked to a ton of people who hate it. I guess I like shows where people put thought and effort into stories and characters, as well as the visual style, while some people prefer to watch superheroes have big battles every week. I don't know. I just know that I find the exploration of character on Legion to be really compelling, while others say that the show is boring and nothing happens.


When it comes to Iron Fist, I'm just going to have to wait and see. Critics are morons who don't know anything, so we can't go by them. Complaining that a white comic book character being white on screen is "whitewashing" is stupid (and possibly a little racist). A lot of those same people would be complaining if they had cast an Asian actor, because they complain about the martial arts stereotype all the time. The star of the show says that it's because people don't like Trump and don't want to cheer for a billionaire superhero. I think that's a bit of a stretch, but who knows?

All I know for sure is that plenty of critics praised Luke Cage, which has to be one of the low points of the franchise, so we can't count their opinions for much.


Plus, they bashed some really good DC films. smile

Re: Marvel Cinematic Universe by Slider_Quinn21

Sepinwall doesn't usually get caught in that BS.  He likes it or he doesn't, and his complaints about Marvel shows have been pretty similar to yours.  Good but drags on too long.  Too repetitive.  He really liked season one of Daredevil and didn't care as much for season two.  Was less into Jessica Jones and Luke Cage.

He says to simply skip this one.  Not "it's bad, go in knowing that" - "Don't worry about it.  You'll catch up when Defenders airs"

Re: Marvel Cinematic Universe by Slider_Quinn21

I don't get why people think season 2 of Daredevil was such a big fall from season 1. It had some solid new characters and the arc was pretty smooth, compared to JJ or LC.

I guess it's also possible that season 1 earned the show a little more wiggle room from me. smile

Re: Marvel Cinematic Universe by Slider_Quinn21

I have watched the first two episodes of Iron Fist. I have thoughts.

1. I don't know what the critics are smoking. This show is closer to Daredevil quality than JJ or LC were. Are they really just pissing and moaning over race issues?

2. Honestly, I know nothing about this character going in. He definitely has Bruce Wayne/Oliver Queen stuff going on, but it's working well so far. I'm interested in following this.

3. I can't judge the whole series yet. There could well be a slump coming up. That seems to be a thing with these shows. But if they can hold this quality of character/story, I will be happy.

4. I do have some issues. It felt weird to have the doctor look at Danny as though he were crazy for referencing other dimensions when they exist in a universe full of alien invasions and mythical gods using a magic hammer to fly. Also, Danny probably could have helped himself by replacing a few "could we just talk?" lines with some "you once poured pancake batter on my head" type lines.

5. I find myself sitting here, waiting for Claire to show up. I know she's around here somewhere. smile

6. Why am I numbering these thoughts?

Re: Marvel Cinematic Universe by Slider_Quinn21

Further proof that critics are useless idiots. Iron Fist has a Rotten Tomatoes score of 17% from critics! Audience score of 87%... Which is closer to where it should be. And the critics comments are largely political, with cries of racism, cultural appropriation, "mansplaining"... It's like they don't care about the writing, acting or directing, and only care about their SJW bingo cards.

Re: Marvel Cinematic Universe by Slider_Quinn21

Seriously though... Don't the new Spider-Man posters look more like the posters for an animated movie than live action? Bright colors aside, they don't even look photographic and the composition is weird. Someone went a little crazy in Photoshop.

I haven't been keeping up with news on this movie. What does "Homecoming" refer to, aside from Disney getting the ability to integrate him into their franchise? Does the story involve him coming back to New York after some great amount of time? I'm a little confused.

Re: Marvel Cinematic Universe by Slider_Quinn21

Informant wrote:

I haven't been keeping up with news on this movie. What does "Homecoming" refer to, aside from Disney getting the ability to integrate him into their franchise? Does the story involve him coming back to New York after some great amount of time? I'm a little confused.

From my understanding, it's set in the lead-up to and during Peter's high school homecoming dance.  They've said they really want this to be a John Hughes movie (Breakfast Club, 16 Candles, etc) mixed in with super-heroes.

Re: Marvel Cinematic Universe by Slider_Quinn21

Ah. Interesting.

I will reserve judgement on that until I see it on Netflix. smile

Re: Marvel Cinematic Universe by Slider_Quinn21

Informant not knowing what a homecoming dance is only deepens my grief for him and his genetic inability to have fun. Stay strong, buddy. We'll get through this.

**

I sure hope Claire shows up soon! I only got around to watching LUKE CAGE now. Honestly, while Luke Cage is one of my favourite Avengers (he plays the straightman to the insanity of Tony Stark and Thor), I'm not really into stories about street gangs. But once I got past that, I really enjoyed this series -- and I've decided that Claire is my favourite MCU character.

Re: Marvel Cinematic Universe by Slider_Quinn21

I know what a homecoming dance is. I just didn't expect a superhero movie to have a school dance as its big draw.

Winter Soldier. The First Avenger. Civil War. Age of Ultron... Homecoming.

I guess it can be pretty harrowing, trying to pin a boutonnière to a super suit. And it's going to be a tough moment when it's time to take pictures and he doesn't want to remove his mask.
Finally, the film will end with a chase scene after Spider-Man gets his date home after her curfew, and her father chases him through the city with a shotgun.

Second thought, I might love this movie.

Re: Marvel Cinematic Universe by Slider_Quinn21

Luke Cage sucked though. It was painful to get through. Claire didn't save it. I might rather go to the dentist and get my teeth drilled than sit through that series again. It was horrible. Which is sad, because Luke was a strong character on Jessica Jones.

I'm still watching Iron Fist. Still liking it.

Re: Marvel Cinematic Universe by Slider_Quinn21

A new Spider-Man trailer is out. I'm curious to know what you all think.

https://youtu.be/DiTECkLZ8HM

Re: Marvel Cinematic Universe by Slider_Quinn21

The movie looks good.

The trailer seemingly tells the entire story, beat by beat.  In chronological order.  I haven't read a single online spoiler, but I can basically tell you the entire plot based on this one trailer.

It's baffling why studios do this.

Re: Marvel Cinematic Universe by Slider_Quinn21

Yeah, it is stupid. They've lost the ability to build mystery. I think that mystery and subtlety are dead in our entire culture.

Re: Marvel Cinematic Universe by Slider_Quinn21

Star Wars was able to do it.  You can watch all the trailers and promos and not really learn much of anything.  I think the Deadpool trailers created the right feel without ruining the movie.  Guardians has done a pretty good job.

The trailers for Life apparently did the same thing - tell the movie in two minutes beat by beat.  I think the BvS trailer (and I know I'm banned from talking about it) shouldn't have spoiled the Doomsday bit.  I think they need to do one of two things:

1. Let the directors edit the trailer (or they can let someone they trust do it).  Having 3rd parties make the trailers creates a situation where their goals (making a cool trailer) don't mesh with the goals for the movie (get people interested in movie).

2. Only provide scenes from the first two acts to the 3rd party.  Most genre movies have a big action setpiece in the first two acts, and all you really need to know is the inciting incident to get a feel for what the plot is going to be.

Re: Marvel Cinematic Universe by Slider_Quinn21

Slider_Quinn21 wrote:

Star Wars was able to do it.  You can watch all the trailers and promos and not really learn much of anything.  I think the Deadpool trailers created the right feel without ruining the movie.  Guardians has done a pretty good job.

The trailers for Life apparently did the same thing - tell the movie in two minutes beat by beat.  I think the BvS trailer (and I know I'm banned from talking about it) shouldn't have spoiled the Doomsday bit.  I think they need to do one of two things:

1. Let the directors edit the trailer (or they can let someone they trust do it).  Having 3rd parties make the trailers creates a situation where their goals (making a cool trailer) don't mesh with the goals for the movie (get people interested in movie).

2. Only provide scenes from the first two acts to the 3rd party.  Most genre movies have a big action setpiece in the first two acts, and all you really need to know is the inciting incident to get a feel for what the plot is going to be.

If we're talking about The Force Awakens, I think it might be because there was no plot to give away. smile

With BvS, people like to blame Snyder for the missteps, but I think the studio genuinely doesn't know what to do with those movies. They don't know how to market to comic book fans, and they aren't comic book fans themselves, so they don't know what's good and what isn't. This is probably why they edited a lot of Superman's story out of BvS when they got their hands on it. People love Batman and he makes a lot of money, so play that up. With the trailer, they just wanted to throw everything at the wall and see what stuck, I think.

Especially because the people making those movies now aren't creating the simple tellings of those stories anymore, which is a lot easier to do than to really explore the characters. Snyder's version of the movie was much more solid. Plus, it set up Justice League a little bit more by letting us get a glimpse of... wait, you haven't seen it. I won't spoil that.

The directors and editors should probably make the trailers.

Re: Marvel Cinematic Universe by Slider_Quinn21

Well, I just think we've moved to a place where people assume that stuff is going to be spoiled so they show it.  How cool would it have been for Doomsday to show up with absolutely no reference to him in the trailers?  Apparently the ending to Life was spoiled by the trailers (and it's a twist ending, allegedly - I haven't seen the trailer or the movie).  And the Spider-Man trailer spoils a great deal of the relationship between Peter and Tony Stark, almost the entirety of a huge action setpiece in the middle of the film, and Peter's entire motivation throughout.

It was just too much.  Maybe the director would've spoiled the same stuff, but I doubt it.  Maybe you tease the boat splitting in half and have you wonder "how's he going to get out of this one?" like they did with the skydivers in Iron Man 3. 

Guardians didn't do that in their trailer.  Justice League gave a lot of character information without really giving much away.  These are big movies that didn't feel the need to make the same mistakes.

Maybe there's a great ending to Spider-Man.  Maybe the rest of the movie is great.  But if they're going to show so much (which looks great), my first instinct is to assume that the rest of the movie wasn't worth showing.

Re: Marvel Cinematic Universe by Slider_Quinn21

IRON FIST is pretty mediocre. The corporate machinations are extremely dull and Finn Jones is thoroughly uninteresting as the already blandly scripted Danny Rand. Colleen Wing and Claire Temple are pretty much perfection, though, and they elevate the series from lifelessly indistinct to watchable. The drunken boxen sequence was good, though.

Re: Marvel Cinematic Universe by Slider_Quinn21

I don't understand the IRON FIST series at all. Why did Marvel TV commission a series about a martial artist character but fill the series with corporate intrigue and boardroom debates instead of martial arts action?

Why did Marvel TV hire an actor with no fighting skills and no time to learn how to fake it to play a master martial artist in this show?

Why did Marvel TV greenlight a show about Iron Fist when the Iron Fist superpower is barely present and Danny Rand never wears the Iron Fist costume?

Why did Marvel TV want to do an Iron Fist TV show about the character's origin story where the mystical city in which the story takes place -- K'un Lun -- is never shown onscreen and where the magic dragon -- which each applicant must fight to become the Iron Fist -- never appears in person?

Why is Harold Meachum the final villain of the first season when Harold has been established as weaker than the Hand ninjas and subservient to villains that Iron Fist has already defeated and dispatched?

If Marvel TV felt uncomfortable with the martial arts, the costume, the mystical city from which the martial arts came, the superpower and the origin behind the superpower, why are they doing this show at all?

IRON FIST is a series that doesn't seem to have any concrete goals and it keeps sabotaging itself throughout its run.

It's almost as though somebody decided years previous that Netflix would have a DEFENDERS series featuring Daredevil, Jessica Jones, Luke Cage and Iron Fist who'd first appear in their individual shows, but the Iron Fist show was thrown together at the last second to justify the character appearing in DEFENDERS without any sense of what IRON FIST would be and no commitment or interest in the aspects of Iron Fist that are present in the comics.

Re: Marvel Cinematic Universe by Slider_Quinn21

I had family in town, so I still haven't finished Iron Fist.

We did watch Doctor Strange though. So... Yeah.

Re: Marvel Cinematic Universe by Slider_Quinn21

Dr Strange was harmless fun, I thought.

Re: Marvel Cinematic Universe by Slider_Quinn21

I guess it was harmless. I mean, it probably didn't give me cancer or anything. smile

Re: Marvel Cinematic Universe by Slider_Quinn21

Slider_Quinn21 wrote:

We don't talk about it much, but I think Agents of Shield has really found its footing.  I actually look forward to watching it each week, and I think it's a lot of fun.  It's annoying that the movies don't care about it, and it's crazy that AoS takes place in the same universe as Daredevil.  But for what it is, I think it's a lot of fun.  Ghost Rider was a fun story, LMD was zany but allowed for some great character work, and I think Agents of Hydra will be pretty cool too.

Bringing back (spoiler) is upsetting, but hopefully they do it right.

Informant wrote:

I haven't watched the show in months. I started this season watching, but eventually forgot to watch and didn't care. Then I went and watched an episode and it just seemed stupid, so I never went back. I never got past the Ghost Rider story.

I don't really know how to describe AGENTS OF SHIELD, and every time I try, I ramble endlessly. I think the best way I have to explain the show is that it has constantly reinvented itself with each season and with Season 4, they did the annual reinvention early, in the middle of the season, wrapping up the Ghost Rider arc and shifting into the artificial intelligence war.

Season 1 was the children's version of a spy show and the series only seemed to find its footing when SHIELD was destroyed and the agents were made fugitives and outsiders which is a more Marvel-approach than having them as agents of the establishment. Season 2 were the agents trying to do their jobs when it wasn't their job anymore and it set up the Inhuman arc of Season 3 which did a really neat job of finally creating Inhumans to truly represent the best Marvel characters as misfits and freaks.

With Season 2, there was a cinematic, crisp, fast-paced approach to the show with tight editing and a snappy sense of rhythm. The series also pushed the actors to their limits with Clark Gregg, Chloe Bennett, Elizabeth Henstridge and Iain De Caestecker playing characters who were increasingly strained and maddened and pushed to their limits. And Brett Dalton as Grant Ward found deeper and more disturbing layers of horror and twisted monstrosity in a character who initially seemed incredibly bland and flat. The Ghost Rider arc was very fulfilling and exiting. The AI war has really grabbed me with the nightmarish Framework environment.

But I honestly can't point to any coherent throughline or central purpose to the series beyond being an exciting, PG-13 espionage series in the Marvel Cinematic Universe. It isn't a film noir adventure like DAREDEVIL; it's not a detective drama like JESSICA JONES; it's not a street-level exercise in atmosphere like LUKE CAGE; it's not a goofy space comedy like GUARDIANS and it's not a charming character piece like ANT MAN. It was a supernatural procedural thriller in the Ghost  Rider arc and it's currently a techno-action spy adventure. Who knows what it'll be next week?

Re: Marvel Cinematic Universe by Slider_Quinn21

Yeah there's not much to it as a whole, but I enjoy it weekly and am glad it exists.

So I watched the original Iron Man movie tonight.  And while I think it did a lot to create the world of the MCU, I gotta say it doesn't feel like an MCU movie.  The MCU is hitting on all cylinders these days (if only as a machine, Informant), and when you watch Dr. Strange or Guardians of the Galaxy or Ant-Man, it all feels authentic to me.  They introduce something strange, and I say, "yeah, that makes sense."

Iron Man shows a world that would feel a bit odd if a Hulk randomly showed up.  A world that doesn't really feel like Red Skull would've fought Captain America.  A world where Hank Pym had already had a lengthy career as Ant-Man.

What really drove that home was, in fact, Phil Coulson.  When I saw Coulson show up, I smiled.  I'd almost forgotten that his character goes back to the beginning....that he, not Nick Fury, was the introduction of SHIELD.  I even forgot that Coulson says Shield first - I thought Fury was the first one to say it.

But at the end of the movie, Coulson and some agents go to arrest Obadiah Stane, and they're surprised when it happens.  At the time, they were just faceless agents.  But as Coulson was leading them in, I watched him with four seasons of a show under his belt, and he felt....underprepared.  He felt sloppy.  I don't even remember how Coulson made it out of the situation alive, and I'm fairly certain the other agents were killed or seriously wounded.

The world hadn't, quite, gotten away from SHIELD yet.  It'd been decades since the Tesseract was causing problems.  Hank Pym had retired already.  The Hulk hadn't made himself known to the world, and he was still in hiding.  No one knew about aliens or Asgardians.  Spider-Man is about 8 years old.  So Coulson probably hadn't faced many supernatural threats at this point in his career, but outside of a small gadget to get into a secure location, it doesn't feel like Coulson works for any SHIELD I understand.

The movie is great, though.  It still might be the best overall movie in the MCU.  They got so lucky that it worked out, or that Nick Fury stinger would've felt really empty.

Re: Marvel Cinematic Universe by Slider_Quinn21

I think Iron Man worked the best, because it was its own movie. It wasn't bending over backwards to establish some character to plot device that will become important 75 years down the line. It wasn't trying to be cute, with references to things in every other movie and jabs at characters from other movies. Iron Man was... pure.

Then you get to Iron Man 2 and it's a sea of character setups and building up to something down the line. Captain America never got to have his own movie, outside of the machine.


The Marvel machine is great for marketing. It's like Apple... at some point, it doesn't matter what they point out, because you've invested too many hours into this thing and you refuse to give up on it. But the machine is the killer of stories and characters. It's a parasite, feeding off of every movie. And it's completely unnecessary. Not every future movie needs to be teased in three otherwise unrelated movies before it. When something big happens in my life, there isn't always a post-credits scene from three years ago that set it up in advance.

One of the things that I'm really looking forward to with Wonder Woman, for example, is that she doesn't get frozen and wake up 100 years later. She can have ten movies set in the first quarter of the 20th century. Her romance with Steve doesn't have to be rushed and then thrown away. She can marry him and watch him grow into a 100 year old man without stepping on the toes of the Justice League movies in any way. This is what they should have done with Captain America, with his final movie having him frozen and waking up just before The Avengers. As it stands, his first movie feels like a rushed setup for The Avengers. His relationships in his first movie are a waste of time, for the most part. His transition to the present is glossed over. He makes out with the niece of the love of his life, about five minutes after said love of his life died unceremoniously. The actual Captain America character is like an afterthought in his own movies, because of the big machine that he is serving.

Iron Man didn't have that problem. It was clean and had its own soul. Not unlike Guardians of the Galaxy.

Re: Marvel Cinematic Universe by Slider_Quinn21

I finally finished Iron Fist the other day. It took me a while, because life got in the way, but I finally got through it.

Overall, I enjoyed it. I think it's easily better than Luke Cage or Jessica Jones, but not up to Daredevil level. I'm a little over this whole trope of the evil corporations, etc., but I still enjoyed the story.

Danny is an interesting character. I don't know the comic book character, so I can only speak about the TV version, but I think it's interesting how he is highly skilled and trained in some ways, but completely developmentally stunted in other ways. He suffered a horrible trauma as a child and was immediately told to repress any and all feelings about that trauma. He was forced to live in a place that he was never meant to live in, and physically abused until he became what they wanted him to become. So it's not surprising that he has anger issues and that his walls start to crumble when he is reintroduced to the normal world. He interacts with it in the only way he knows how, which is as a child. At times it seems silly, but when you stop to think of someone who has essentially been held captive and brainwashed for a decade and a half, it's not really unthinkable.

Do I think it was a little heavy-handed at times? Yeah. But it was still interesting.

The corporate stuff... it is what it is. Yeah, Danny has been trained to fight the Hand, but he doesn't know how to fight someone like Harold, who is a master at controlling people and situations. He used Danny and the Hand against each other, not unlike Lex Luthor in Batman v Superman. I think they could have played him with a little bit more subtlety toward the end, but I do understand why they went with him. The Hand, I imaging, will be an issue to be dealt with in The Defenders, so they couldn't just resolve it here.

I had a hard time getting a feel for Joy in this series. She was a poorly defined character whose reactions and motives seemed to change from episode to episode. Did she love Danny like a brother? She seems to be a lifeline in the first episode or two, but then whatever bond they might have had is sidelined. I think that perhaps Claire didn't need to be as prominent as she was in this series, because she took over some of what Joy could have been doing.

Iron Fist wasn't the best series I've ever seen in my life. And at times, I felt like the OA was going to step out of the shadows and start doing her five movements as he did his tai chi, but that's just my wacky imagination.

I do think that the series was ridiculously over-slammed by critics. Especially after they praised Luke Cage, which was painful to get through.