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God the last episode was horrible.  The British MOL are simply awful.  Have the writers SEEN this series before?

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Sorta funny Walking Dead reference in this week's episode.  Dean has a barbed-wire-covered baseball bat, and he says "Dad loved this thing."  John Winchester (Jeffrey Dean Morgan, obviously) is now on TWD and famously uses a barbed-wire-covered bat.

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Secondary weird note - is it weird to anyone else that the Impala isn't more protected?  I'd think it'd be warded like crazy.  There's only a ward in the trunk, right?

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Question - if a werewolf can be "cured" - why can't Castiel do that?

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He wasn't contracted for that episode.

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I just feel like if curing was even somewhat possible, it would've been mentioned before.  And would be an absolute gamechanger.

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Apparently, it isn't a sure thing. Most people would die.

I wonder if she survived because she is a potential angel vessel. Do they have some extra resilience?

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Maybe.  It's really weird that Castiel wasn't in the episode.  It would've been nice to have some heavenly insight - not to mention his connection to Claire.

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I'm good with Castiel and Crowley appearing less, and people like Claire appearing more.

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I agree with that.  This just seemed like a natural place for him to show up, and it was odd that he didn't.

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As indicated in the Arrowverse thread, Supernatural stays on Thursday.

In other news, two-part finale tonight.  Or two-episode finale.  I don't know if they're connected or not.

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Which means Supernatural vs Gotham.

Sigh. It's been a while since I had a real conflict! I will probably save Gotham for later, since there isn't a whole night of interesting programming on FOX there. Supernatural and Arrow work well together, though I'd swap timeslots if I were in charge. Supernatural is a darker show... Scooby-Doo episode notwithstanding.

http://ew.com/tv/2017/05/18/supernatura … r-episode/

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Wow, that's quite the finale. 

Do we think (SPOILERS) and (SPOILERS) are going to stay (SPOILERS)?  And were you upset that (SPOILERS) so so unceremoniously (SPOILERS)?  I also liked  the surprise (SPOILERS) of (SPOILERS) in the (SPOILERS)?

In all seriousness, I thought it was really thrilling.  And in the penultimate one, I was shocked at how emotional Dean's talk with Mary was.

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Still processing my thoughts since I just watched the final two episodes. Here's where I am so far...

Hour one -
I think they could have focused on the MoL story alone and made this the season finale. Having hunters assemble with Sam taking the leadership role was cool. Dean had some powerful scenes too. Overall, I think the Men of Letters story was strong and worked, but they need to learn the method by which Kripke worked within his budget. They try to go too big and fancy sometimes, like with the modern MoL base, and it ends up looking like a 1990's Sci-fi Channel set.
Solid hour.


Hour two -
Honestly, I could do without this whole arc. Lucifer shouldn't have come back. The baby story has been done already. The alternate world looked cheesy.
That said, the setup is really interesting. There is potential for a soft reboot now, since so many crutch characters are gone. I'm surprised that Rowena was killed off camera, but it worked.
I want these deaths to stick, but there were so many of them that it's all begging to be reset. Ideally, next season would have Sam and Dean find a way to save Mary, and then the show would move on. However, I worry that everything that happened in this episode will be a waste of time.

My brother suggested that Mary will interact with alternate versions of those dead characters next season, but I really hope that (like Hell and Purgatory) we don't spend very long in the alternate universe. Hell, I'd rather see Mary end up on the Flash than spend multiple episodes in that world.

Depending on how this goes, the episode was either a huge step forward, or a big waste of time.

Overall, it felt unpolished in parts. Some directing decisions were questionable. Not horrible, but this arc wasn't my favorite.

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I was surprised about Rowena, if only because I thought she deserved an on-screen death.  I don't know if it was a scheduling issue or some sort of problem with the actress, but she'd become an important-enough character that it was a bit surprising that she was burned to a crisp off screen (the overkill of her death seemed a bit like the Arturo death in that way).

But if Crowley is dead, there's really no reason to bring her back either.

I do hope that some of these deaths stick, although I also fear that they're gonna bring all of them back.  I really liked Crowley's death.  He's always been a "bad" character that's usually leaned good, and I'm glad he finally realized that.  He's been an antagonist, but he's done about as much good as Castiel (and is just as likely to help, it seems).  To have him sacrifice himself to trap Lucifer is a pretty cool thing.

Cass' death was way too casual to stick.  I wouldn't have minded if the baby had been born (as a baby) and Castiel had left the show to take care of him.  I know they want to do the nephilim storyline, but that could've been something that was in the background.  If this is how Castiel dies, it was almost as unceremonious as Rowena's death.  And I'd leave Mary and Lucifer trapped in that other world, never to appear again.  She gets to be with Bobby, living kickass lives as full-time hunters.  I think that's, in a real weird way, a happy ending for her.

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Leaving Mary wouldn't make sense to me. I don't see how Sam or Dean would ever stop looking for a way to get her back, just like they've done for each other a bunch of times. She's family... And not Adam.

On top of that I don't get why they would bring her back, set her up, and then just get rid of her. She is a solid character who opens a lot of doors.

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Well, here's my thinking.

Getting her back risks getting Lucifer back.  I know she's family, but that's a huge risk bringing her back.  And, like I said, I feel like it's almost a happy ending for her.  She never really belonged, and she only felt comfortable hunting.  Now that's all she'll get to do.  Bobby seemed like he was at peace in that world (he never asks to come back with them), and I think she'd be the same way.  I agree that she'll probably come back (with Lucifer), and they probably needed a better goodbye if they were going to do things that way (where she chooses to go).  But if this is how it ends, it's probably the happiest of all the endings we got in that episode.

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The happiest, maybe. If only because she is still alive. However, she is with Lucifer. How long does she last there?

I do wonder who exists and how, in that other world. Michael and Lucifer needed Sam and Dean in order to go through with their big apocalypse. So, what would their roles be on that other world? Still, I'm not sure that I want to be there long enough to find out.

I do think that Sam and Dean need to work endlessly to get Mary back though. The risk is no greater than when Sam was in the cage. It would be weird if they gave up. However, it doesn't necessarily need to happen in the premiere, since Samantha Smith isn't one of the leads.

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Is it just me or did all these season-long plotlines -- Men of Letters, Lucifer's spawn, Mary's detachment -- just get resolved in a very rushed, anti-climactic way? There was no build-up, no rising action. A lot of troubling, random events followed by the hunters storming the Men of Letters installation and blowing it up. Tremendously rushed, anti-climactic deaths for two characters, one of whom didn't even appear onscreen. And before there was any time to absorb that, the nephilim is born and we only glimpse it before the season ends. This didn't feel like a season finale.

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It did feel like there were two factions in the writers room - the Men of Letters team and the Nephilim team - each that wrote out full conclusions...and then the show decided to cut both in half and air them both.  It did feel like different seasons.

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Yeah, I think that the Men of Letters storyline felt more developed, and that resolution felt more fulfilling. The nephilim story felt half-baked and kinda useless from the start. The kid is the President's son, genetically speaking, but... does that matter? Why? It just seems like a story that's there because they needed something "supernatural" and this was just them going through the motions of doing that.

I do hope that he makes for a good villain. Maybe they can make him interesting by not making him eeeeevil from the start. Maybe we (and Sam and Dean) actually like him at first, but he slowly starts to make choices that turn out badly and becomes a threat. Possibly not even on purpose.

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Seems like at least one death will stick. Mark Sheppard will not be returning as a series regular next season.

I like the actor, but this is long overdue. I am pretty sure that you could edit out 90% of his scenes without losing any plot over the past few years.

Misha Collins has suggested that Castiel has a future, but we don't know if that means that he will be a regular. Personally, I'd rather see Mary, Jodi or Claire promoted to series regular.

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Sheppard's sticking makes the most sense.  He had the most closure.

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Kinda makes you wonder why they didn't just kill him a couple of weeks ago though.

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Well, he had to go out with a win.  I know you didn't love his character, but I thought he had pretty good chemistry with the rest of the cast.  His character didn't hold up to much scrutiny (he never seemed like the King of Hell), but if you just took him at face value, he was fun.

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So apparently there is a group of fans that believes that the upcoming spinoff, Wayward Sisters, is a ripoff of an idea that was created and developed by the fans.

I got into a conversation with a couple of these people, and as best I can figure, the facts are these:

1. In season 9, Supernatural introduced Alex. She's a girl who was victimized by vampires, and she was ultimately sent to live with Jody. Season 9 also introduced Donna Hanscum, another female sheriff who quickly befriended Jody.

2. Season 10 reintroduced Claire, who had been orphaned after Castiel took her father's body as his vessel and her mother disappeared (and later died). Ultimately, Claire was sent to live with Jody. As she left, she asked, "This is some sort of halfway house for wayward girls?"

3. The fans liked the idea of these characters interacting, so they came up with the idea of having these characters interact and have stories of their own. They called this Wayward Daughters. The actresses involved supported the idea and it became a whole thing.

4. Season 11, episode 12, "Don't You Forget About Me" was all about Jody, Claire and Alex. It was a very popular episode, which had many, many people calling for a spinoff (myself included)

5.  Recently, the Supernatural producers announced that they would be creating a backdoor pilot for a series called Wayward Sisters, which follows this group (along with the granddaughter of a character that I won't spoil). The writers said that they'd been toying with the idea ever since they wrote Claire back onto the show, but the timing wasn't right until this season.

6. Fanrage! They stole the idea that the fans created! How dare they take credit for this?!!?!?

http://www.supernaturalwiki.com/index.p … _Daughters



Okay, so... where to begin?

I will start in season 8, with Krissy Chambers. She is a girl who was orphaned after her hunter father was killed. Krissy goes to live in a house for wayward supernaturally orphaned kids. So, the idea was on the show long before the fans were pushing for Wayward Daughters. (also, I want Krissy on this new series!)

Next, the writers put Alex and Claire with Jody, not the fans. This isn't a case of the fans creating an idea, it's a case of them... watching the show and not being able to understand the line between their own thoughts and what's happening on the screen? The writers clearly had the idea for stories involving this group of characters, which is why they put them together in the first place.

I find it absolutely hilarious and outrageous that fans are claiming that this was their idea, to the point of accusing the writers of ripping it off. Is this some sort of mental illness?


I love Supernatural, but I've never liked the fandom. I have always hated the crazy fangirls, and I've never forgiven them for causing Jo and Ellen to be written off of the show. They claim to want more female representation on the show, but they've always thrown tantrums every time a woman got anywhere near a Winchester brother... unless the character was gay or maternal in some way that made her non-threatening to the fangirl delusion that the Winchesters would fall in love with them.

This claim that the writers stole a fan idea makes me even more mad. Maybe it's the writer in me, but it's infuriating.

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What do the fans want?  A "Developed by the fans of supernatural?" credit?  Do they want to be hired as writers?  What's the plan?

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In general, I think the plan for Supernatural fangirls has always been to be as whiny and bitchy as humanly possible.

Mission accomplished.

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Maybe they want female representation that's not just a love interest.  I've heard that women are capable of other things.

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We have tried different types of female characters on the show. Ellen and Jo were more like a mother and sister to them in season two, for example. But the fangirls screamed until they were written off. And the show is going into season 13, and we've had one long-term relationship on the show (which the fangirls rejected), with another multi-episode relationship that was over before we even saw how it played out. I don't think the show can be accused of reducing women to housewife cliches.

That said, there was nothing wrong with the Lisa character. They should have kept her around and allowed Dean to hold onto the maturity that his season 6 arc brought to his character.

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The show has unfortunately devolved into a soap.  Out of ideas.  Season was pretty bad arc-wise.  Now they're saying there's NO end in sight, and old characters will return, I guess from the dark universe, IDK.