Re: DC Movie Universe by Informant

Batman v Superman rewatch thoughts:

Still great. And probably the most truthful exploration of the news media/public relationship that I've seen depicted in film. I'm not even joking. Superman saves 100 people, but the story is about the 10 that he couldn't. They want him to be a villain, so they report that while there is no evidence, there are still questions about his involvement in the bombing. The facts don't matter as much as the story. And the people either hate him because of the monster in the press, or they worship him in spite of it, an neither side is remotely realistic in their view of the man.

Great themes in the story. Great character arcs. It's just a great movie (talking about the Ultimate Edition here). I wouldn't put it on the same level as MoS, because there are some things that I would change with BvS (particularly in the Batman/Superman fight), but it's a very well crafted story and a well made film.

And the Wonder Woman arrival was just cool.

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Informant wrote:

And the Wonder Woman arrival was just cool.

What sort of ruins the whole arrival for me is the whole "Is she with you?" "I thought she was with you" back and forth....which literally only works for the trailer.  It's a cool line but makes absolutely no sense in the context of the movie.  Superman should be asking that, but Batman knows *exactly* who she is.  She isn't trying to hide her identity, and maybe he's trying to distinguish between Batman knowing Diana and Bruce knowing Diana.  But I don't think Bruce was supposed to be covering for her....I think it's a line designed for the trailer that they put in the movie and didn't edit out.

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Maybe Bruce assumed that all superpowered people knew each other smile

Got my tickets for Wonder Woman. Going tomorrow! I hope this doesn't suck!

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Haha, come now.  You can criticize that one's all I ask smile

It's a great line for the trailer.  It just needed to be cut for the movie.  Or altered.  Clark could say "Is she with you?" and Bruce could says something else witty.  "I don't think she's with anyone" or "I think she's with us" or something.  Or even just that Batman smirk to let the other guy know that he knows something the other guy doesn't know (even/especially when he doesn't).

Have fun at Wonder Woman!

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Hey, there are a few things I'd change about the movie (bigger than the "Is she with you" line). I acknowledge that. I would change the Save Martha scene a little, because I like the concept but the execution was a little off. And I'd change Superman's attempt to talk to Batman as he arrives at the battle, because the "We need to talk" and "You don't understand" thing is a peeve of mine from movies in general.

The movie is very, very good, but it isn't perfect

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Saw Wonder Woman last night, as most have said, great film. Limited CGI, intrigue and mystery, and period piece elements. Gadot did an excellent job as well, she's really right for the part. How ironic that the Justice League trailer preceded this film, and looked like even more of a mess than BvS.

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Deep breath...

I saw Wonder Woman...

I didn't love it. <pounds head on desk repeatedly>

Spoilers below...

A couple of things to say before I go into my thoughts on the movie.
First, I've never been a huge fan of Wonder Woman. I've always found her to be a lot of iconic imagery without much character. Her story makes her unrelatable in the comics, and I've never understood why she is the big female icon, rather than one of the better female characters.
Second, I didn't love the movie, but I didn't hate it either. This isn't a negative review. I think Gal Gadot was great in the role.

I'm still trying to figure out where this movie is going to settle in my brain. I guess we'll find out in time.

What are some of the issues that I have with the movie?

Well, as I've said before, the interesting thing about Batman and Superman is that they've been done so many times before that the current franchise runners really can't fall back on the basic paint-by-numbers origin stories. They had to find a new style from which to film them, and a new hook by which to tell their stories. This means that the writers and director had to push that much harder to create a world for those characters.

Since Wonder Woman is such an unrelatable character by default, I really wanted something like Man of Steel, to make that character come alive for me and make me believe in the world that she lives in. While the opening scenes on Themyscira were beautiful and drew me into Diana's world, something shifted once they went back to the "modern" world. Suddenly, every character that surrounded Diana was comic relief, constantly bantering and joking in ways that made them feel like characters, rather than people. I couldn't imagine many of those characters existing off screen. They existed to serve Diana's character.
In Man of Steel, you get a sense of Martha's life without Clark around. You see Lois' life without him. Every character on screen has their own world and their own personality that makes the world full and complete. I just didn't feel that, even with Steve.

In many ways, Wonder Woman has a lot of the same problems that I find in Marvel movies. But I'd still say that this movie was better than the Marvel movies, because while I didn't like it *as much as* Man of Steel or Batman v Superman, I do think that there is more substance and more interesting ideas here. And visually, it just looks better.

Though I don't get why people are saying that it's so much more colorful than Man of Steel. Did I have my sunglasses on during the movie or something?

There was a moment that I thought the movie was taking a really interesting turn. As Diana tracks down General Ludendorff and kills him, she realizes that nothing changes. And Steve tells her that maybe it's not Ares, maybe it's just people. Bad people do bad things, and good (though still not perfect) people fight them, and that's the point of this. We keep fighting, because it's the right thing to do.

Right there, I thought that this was something unexpected and interesting, and a truly hero-creating moment. Diana can't rid the world of all evil and war by killing one bad guy, it has to be a life-long mission (especially since... spoiler alert... there's another World War).

Then the real Ares shows up, that moment from a few seconds ago passes, and we get a big battle that is exciting, but less meaningful than what almost happened.

It's almost like there was a whole other direction for the movie, and it was changed later in the process. In this alternate version, Steve's message to Diana sticks and she realizes that there is no simple way to kill one bad guy and be rid of evil. They off the general, and fight some soldiers as they work to blow up the poison gas, and the day is saved. Yay!
There was also this running question of what a normal life looks like in this world, in between wars. Neither Diana nor Steve know the answer. So in my alternate version, we leave with them together, off to discover what that normal life looks like and whether or not people are actually happy to be married.

There's no reason to not do this. Diana isn't frozen and thawed out decades later. She will live those decades, so why not with Steve? Why did he die in this movie, except because they want to set any sequels at a later point? Diana could have lived with him for at least a couple of years, and at most a few decades, and it wouldn't have done any harm to the character. In fact, I think it would have helped. Wonder Woman is always so unrelatable, but if she had that time with Steve and outlived him, we instantly have something that we can relate to!

This part frustrates me.

Instead, we get a big Ares battle, a dead Steve, and... I don't know. I'm still trying to figure out what I'm going to take away from it in the end. Maybe I need time to get past the "what I wanted to happen" part of my reaction.

Right now, my movie rankings are...

Man of Steel
Batman v Superman
Suicide Squad
Wonder Woman

But just to be clear, Wonder Woman still beats out the Marvel movies. I don't think it was bad. I don't think it was full of plot holes that render the whole movie useless. I don't think it was poorly acted or directed (though I strongly disagree with those who say that Jenkins did a better job than Snyder). It was a good movie. I just have to see where it settles once the dust clears.

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Well, that's my question.  They have Chris Pine....could they bring him back?  She acts like she hasn't seen him in a while, but could he have survived?  Could the Flash have grabbed him out of time and brought him to the present day?  Could he have been, I don't know, recruited into the Green Lantern Corps?

Also....CAN SHE FLY OR NOT? Haha.

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And also....SMH.  We just can't agree on this crap wink

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Most comic book fans agree with you, if that makes you feel better. I don't know what it is. Part of me thinks that a lot of people have just gotten used to seeing Superman done poorly, so they have a hard time accepting a version that actually has some thought behind it. Another part of me gets that while I like layers and grounding and all of that, most people just want to have fun and don't think about it as much as I do... which sounds like I'm calling them stupid, but I'm not. It's just that different people process stories in different ways.

I don't know about Steve. Bringing him into the present would be too convenient, and I'd hate that. So now they're stuck with him being dead. He could become the Spectre, but that doesn't really make sense. I just don't get why they killed off Diana's main co-star and love interest when the story didn't really require it. If he were Lois Lane, he'd still be alive.

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The more I think about it, the more the whole Ares sequence feels like the product of a rewrite. In the beginning of the movie, young Diana sees the god killer sword and is told that only the most capable warrior could wield it (or whatever the phrasing was), and that was not Diana.

Except, none of that is true. The sword is meaningless. The tower that holds the sword was just a waste of construction materials. And Diana is pretty much the only one who could wield the god killer, unless #patriarchy.

Every arc in the movie leads to the point where Diana kills the General and realizes that he was just a man, and then the movie goes totally sideways, with split themes that cancel each other out (is it man? is it Ares? It's both! So, neither!)

Did someone not think that the General was a big enough villain for Wonder Woman, after we had Zod and Doomsday?

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Does anyone own Superman II? Not the Donner cut, but the original?

If so, could you tell me how things are left with Zod and his team? In the versions I'm seeing on YouTube, they die. In a later televised version, released years later, they're seen getting arrested. In the Donner version, I think Superman reverses time, so they're back in the Phantom Zone.

But I don't know which one is the "normal" version on the modern releases.

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I think the official version is that they are dropped down the cavern.  We don't see that they die, but it's pretty assumed I think.

Them getting arrested is a deleted scene, I believe, added to TV versions.

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That's what I thought. Thanks.

I'm in one of those conversations where people are insisting that the old movies are superior, because Superman would never kill. smile

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For whatever the reason, 17-24 minutes (depending on broadcaster) was inserted back into the film for TV back in the 1980's.  These scenes, including the arrest I believe, were shot by Donner.  That's why in many ways, the "Donner cut" might be further from the theatrical version but not as far apart from the broadcast one.  I saw it awhile ago, and compared it to the original, and frankly I barely see that much of a difference.  Still a good movie no matter what.

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The weird part is that even without the arrest, people are arguing that Zod and his minions weren't killed by Superman. They say that Superman just threw Zod down a slide and never implied that he died.

If true, that would be the lamest ending to a movie ever. Like "I just sent Zod down a slide, Lois. I guess that means that the fight's over. We won. Let's go home, because Zod... went down a slide."


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I heard separate rumors today that DC is looking into making a RED SON adaptation (live action?) and that the next Justice League trailer will feature an "evil Superman" tease at the end.

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If Evil Superman is featured in Justice League (something that I've always expected, but am wary of), I don't see how Red Son is an option for a live action movie. They can't keep making movies where Superman is twisted into something else.

I'm sure Warner has considered it. They seem to be taking the approach of throwing around a lot of ideas and seeing what sticks, which I kinda like. I just don't see this going anywhere.

I was thinking about another idea. What if Warner/DC released some smaller movies, in between the big blockbusters, to flesh out the DC universe a little? These could be small, character-driven stories that are set in the same universe but don't require the budget of the bigger movies. Like... a story about the Kents discovering an alien baby and how they deal with that situation. Something like that. I don't know. I was just wondering what an indie film would look like, but set in one of those comic book worlds.

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I'm also hearing that Batgirl is picking up steam as well!  Ehhhhhhhhh

620 (edited by Slider_Quinn21 2017-07-06 09:46:05)

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The Bat-Family stuff is confusing to me.  If they exist, why weren't they helping Bruce in his crusade against Superman (or trying to talk him out of it).  I still think a line was needed to either explain why they were gone ("You're pushing away everyone like you did with Dick and Barbara") or ("Dick called again.  I don't know why you won't accept his help").

Or, if Bruce was too blinded with rage in BvS, why aren't they helping with the Justice League*?  I know they don't have powers, but you'd think he'd want people he trusts alongside him, even if they aren't necessarily in the front lines.

* I know they could show up or be referenced.  Basing this off the idea that we know they probably will not actually appear or we'd likely know that.

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All of the rumored Batgirl actresses seem pretty young. Younger than I'd expect for a post-Jason Batman story. So if the rumors are true at all, they're either going to be jumping back in time to tell her story, or she's going to be brought into the picture after Dick is long gone and Jason is dead.

So Dick may be the only Bat-family member in play right now. If he fell out with Bruce, Bruce may not have any idea where he is or how to contact him. Dick could be on the other side of the planet for all we know. Even if he were in Bludhaven, it would have probably taken him hours to get to Metropolis or Gotham to fight Doomsday, so it wasn't really an option. He probably wouldn't have been into the idea of killing Superman, so I wouldn't expect him to be a part of that story.

We're getting pieces of that story though. Jason is dead and Bruce is at a low point, isolating himself. They didn't directly mention the others, but his arc for that movie was definitely about his having cut others out, and then being open to finding others to work with. In the Justice League trailer, we have a reference to Batman working with other people *again*. So it's there, it's just not something that they're hitting very hard so far.

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All true.  It's just weird that in the ultimate "world building" movie, they didn't really flesh out the world of the main character.  I like little nods to a bigger world, especially when it's a world they hope to play in later.  I like in the Arrowverse how they've alluded to Batman (Jimmy referred to him as "Clark's friend" and Winn referred to him as "more of a frenemy").  Back when there were a ton of rumors that Nightwing would appear on Arrow, they had Oliver talk about going out with a buddy in Bludhaven.  Stuff like that is fun.

Even including the Gordon line, the impression I'm getting from the DCEU is that there was one Robin and he's dead.  I absolutely love the idea of doing Bat-Family stuff, and I want to see a Nightwing movie about as badly as anything (#PadaleckiForDickGrayson).  But if they're doing to do that, I need an explanation for where they were.  Even if it's a flashback movie for Barbara, I need to know why she wasn't in BvS/Justice League.  For Dick Grayson, it's gotta be critical if the relationship is *so* bad that neither wants anything to do with the other, and Alfred isn't even trying to make things right.

Not saying they won't, but I'm making my expectations known smile

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Jared Padalecki would be a good Nightwing, but I wonder if he's too old at this point. I guess he's ten years younger than Affleck, so that works. And I guess he could always play a couple of years younger than he actually is. So say Dick is around 30, Jason would probably have been mid-20's if he were still alive. Tim, if he ever appears, would probably be around 16 or 17.

It's not quite right, if I'm remembering correctly, but it could work.

There's a fair amount of negative space that Snyder played with when it came to some character development. A lot of the Batman history took place in that negative space, existing without being directly addressed in BvS and Suicide Squad.

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I just think there's so much they could do with the backstory of a Batman who's operated for so long.  What's he done?  How many times has a saved the day?  How much do people know about him?  What were his big successes and big failures?  Who came into his life?  Who left his life?  How many of his famous Rogues' gallery has he fought? 

There are ways to dive into this with a line of dialogue here or there.  Ways to show bonds that were created and bonds that were destroyed.  I think Logan did a great job with referencing just enough about the "Westchester Incident" without showing or telling us so much that it distracted from the plot of what we were watching.  But we got enough about it that we basically know what was mostly in subtext which made it so much better.  They could've done the same thing with Bruce/Alfred/Tim/Jason/Dick/Barbara/Damien/whoever.

The problem is that we've seen so much of Batman but know so little about him.  How long has he been Batman?  There's no real indication.  The furthest we flash back in the DCEU for Batman is the scene where he takes down Harley and Deadshot, right?  And those were relatively recent events, right?  We know he had a Robin and that he died (by Harley and/or Joker).  We can suspect based on some graffiti that Riddler existed in some form.  But even the dialogue in BvS is contradictory with itself - with Perry calling him "The Batman" (like he's well known) and Clark calling him "the Bat vigilante" (like he's recently showed up on the scene).  The police don't seem to be working with Batman (or all that familiar with his work), and yet the newspapers imply that his methods have gotten more violent (meaning his methods are familiar enough that they could tell the difference between him getting more violent and not).

The main evidence that Bruce has been around for a while is in a couple lines of dialogue, but the strongest is simply Ben Affleck's age.  If they'd cast Armie Hammer and kept the entire dialogue identical, I'd assume that Bruce has been active for a couple of years....certainly not a ton longer than that.

Sorry to get back into this.  I know it's all material I've covered before, but it's just something that gets at me.  I just feel like we should know way more about this guy than we do.

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There's not much more that I can say at this point, I suppose. We'll just have to see how they handle it going forward.

One interesting detail in Suicide Squad was when the Joker was on the floor with all of the guns in a circle around him, we get a glimpse of baby clothes also on the floor. What does this mean? How does it relate to Harley's dream for a normal life, and her reaction to El Diablo killing his own family? Is she upset for having killed a kid (Robin) or is she upset for having lost her own child?


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DC has the best posters.

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Is that official?  Is that the first official reference to Superman being in this?


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Yeah, it's from Comic Con, I think. Haven't we had official word on Superman already? I thought we did.

The new footage looks great too.