Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Re: The Flash

Their explanation makes sense.  He's a time remnant who was forgotten and ignored (and they only did that because they were already fractured at that point, I assume) and so in order to create himself, he has to kill Iris.  It's dumb time travel logic, but it holds (some) water.

My issue is with the rest of the episode.  I get that you don't want an amnesiac as a titular hero.....but the plan worked.  Savitar was pacified, and he could've been taken down.  Barry was prepared to kill himself to kill Savitar....why wouldn't everyone be okay with him (temporarily) losing his memories?

I get that the building was on fire, people were in danger, and Flash didn't have control of his powers.  But Barry seemingly had better control of his powers the first time, and while Wally said he could explain how to Flash to him, he didn't try.  I think they should've stuck with the plan.

And even though Wally didn't have his powers (so there wasn't a speedster on Earth One who could fight Barry), Cisco's powers still worked.  Go grab Jesse.  Or Supergirl.  Or, and I hate to harp on this (no I don't), Team Arrow could handle an amnesiac Barry, right?  If Flash-Barry can't control his powers, why would Savitar?

Re: Savitar.  Barry and Time-Remnant Barry shouldn't be any different, right?  They're essentially the same person with no memories.  So why does Barry wake up all happy and cheerful and Savitar wakes up and immediately attacks Killer Frost?  That's implying that Savitar-Barry is naturally evil, and I don't think that's what they're going for.

I also don't understand how this round of time travel causality works.  If Savitar losing his memories takes away Wally's speed (because Savitar couldn't create Kid Flash), why does Savitar exist at all?  Following the causality loop....would the Savitar Time Remnant need to be created...so Savitar shouldn't exist.

It could've been a really fun episode (like Smallville's "Blank" was), but it ended up being a bit of a mess IMO.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

After the showstopper of Savitar's reveal, this light diversion felt oddly misplaced with Savitar dumping some exposition before disappearing for an episode. The explanation for Savitar is... adequate? But it's a shame he's not a time remnant previously created on the show or a result of Flashpoint or in any way tied to the present Barry and Barry's character.

It would have worked better if this remnant had been the one who seemingly sacrificed himself to stop Zoom, alive but scarred, insane and furious at Barry having abandoned him and not even considering him real.

As for this episode -- it's an episode of THE FLASH in which Barry isn't the Flash, and I wish they would not make such episodes.

Can't really quibble with SQ21 noting all the problems in the time travel logic.

Never has TF felt more on point to say there are too many shows and too few showrunners.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

ireactions wrote:

It would have worked better if this remnant had been the one who seemingly sacrificed himself to stop Zoom, alive but scarred, insane and furious at Barry having abandoned him and not even considering him real.

I actually thought that's where they were going when Savitar-Barry mentioned Zoom.  I thought they played sorta loose with the idea that Barry was "killing himself" last season with the time remnants, and this would've been an appropriate "consequence" for that.

Like you said, it's adequate. 

The Arrowverse needs some work, for sure.  I don't know what the plan is for Arrow next year....it's been better and they've shown that they don't really need the flashbacks to tell stories (they didn't have them at all one week, and they had a flashback to last year last week).  I think everyone involved knew the show needed to try and get more to its roots, and they've done well with that this year.

Flash needs a soft reboot.  Barry needs to be over all his demons this year, and he needs to be a positive, happy-go-lucky force for good.  The show needs to be fun.

I don't know what I'd do with Legends, honestly.  I still wish it'd be an anthology series, but that ship seems to have sailed.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I was obviously distracted during this week's Flash... Did they say that the time remnants are exact copies, or would he have become a sort of mirror image?

Yeah, I think it would have had more weight to it if this were the consequence of something that our Barry did, but they might have wanted to keep him from having that guilt. The thing is, if they kill Savitar, or stop him in some other way, does their whole world change? If they stop Savitar, does Wally stop being Kid Flash? Does Julian go back to not working with Team Flash?

Please be informed that the political, scientific, sociological, economic and legal views expressed in Informant's posts and social media accounts do not reflect any consensus of Sliders.tv.

665 (edited by Slider_Quinn21 2017-05-11 10:40:14)

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Informant wrote:

Yeah, I think it would have had more weight to it if this were the consequence of something that our Barry did, but they might have wanted to keep him from having that guilt. The thing is, if they kill Savitar, or stop him in some other way, does their whole world change? If they stop Savitar, does Wally stop being Kid Flash? Does Julian go back to not working with Team Flash?

Wally absolutely should lose his powers.  Just erasing Savitar's memories did that.  Julian was still there so presumably that....still happened?  I have no idea.  Like I said, their time travel logic was worse than usual this week.

As far as I'm aware, Time Remnants are exact duplicates of the person.  That's how it's always appeared (Zoom, Thawne, and Barry)

http://arrow.wikia.com/wiki/Time_remnant

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

SPOILERS / FINALE SPECULATION ON THE FLASH

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So I think we can agree that HR is the one that died to prove that he had a purpose?  Could that possibly mean that Tom Cavanaugh is not coming back next year?  His "scientist" role replaced with Tracy?  Or would we get a 4th (5th?) Wells?

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

2017-2018 Lineup

Monday - Supergirl
Tuesday - Flash and Legends
Wednesday - Nothing
Thursday - Supernatural and Arrow

Black Lightning starts midseason, but I just read that it won't be an official part of the Arrowverse?

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Re: Arrow (with some Flash and Supergirl spoilers too)

In "how these people could be smarter by understanding that they live in a shared universe" part 271, Flash hid Iris in Earth 2 when he realized she was in danger.  Shouldn't that have been the first place that Oliver (or anyone on Team Arrow) thought to hide?  Especially since Savitar could easily go to Earth 2, and as far as we know, Chase has zero ability to get them there.

One thing, though.  In all three shows, I was impressed by the deep rosters they were able to work with.  Supergirl brought back Cat Grant and Superman, while also having the Luthors working with the full DEO team.  Team Flash was at about 100% to deal with Savitar, adding Harry and Tracy.  And now Oliver is fighting a team of villains and former heroes against a team full of heroes and former villains.  These shows might not be the strongest, but they've built up a pretty cool history that they can work with.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Both shows were pretty strong this week. Arrow had been a lot better this year, which is nice. I think they should just move on from Olicity though. Seriously. It didn't work.

With The Flash... I would have probably sent Iris to Kara's Earth, which goes against everything I believe in as a TV fan, but it is what it is. Harry couldn't help her, and she wound up sitting in an alternate STAR Labs, right next to the machine that brings people to other worlds. At the very least, vibe her to another part of that world! But yeah, a world with superpowered alien allies would have been more preferable to loner Harry, who didn't even have his speedster daughter around.

I do have to wonder though... why not get Jesse? And for that matter, where was Julian? This is the big day that they've been building to, and they didn't even have all hands on deck?


As for who died, I think Iris had to be the one who was stabbed. There was no time for HR to change places with her. However, there has to be a twist, right? Did they find a way for Iris to be stabbed, but survive? I don't know. If it ends up being a switch, where HR died in Iris' place, I just don't think that it makes sense.

Please be informed that the political, scientific, sociological, economic and legal views expressed in Informant's posts and social media accounts do not reflect any consensus of Sliders.tv.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Informant wrote:

As for who died, I think Iris had to be the one who was stabbed. There was no time for HR to change places with her. However, there has to be a twist, right? Did they find a way for Iris to be stabbed, but survive? I don't know. If it ends up being a switch, where HR died in Iris' place, I just don't think that it makes sense.

The switch would've happened on-site.  Savitar is holding (the real) Iris in the middle of that square.  Flash gets the cannon and shoots it at him, and Savitar leaves Iris where she was and runs around before Flash finally hits him with it.  It's not a ton of time, but it'd be enough time on this show.  Maybe HR took some of the Velocity drug that Jay created, or maybe they were able to heal Wally enough to swap them out.  Or maybe that's where Jessie or Julian was...helping HR sacrifice himself.

It'd be a bit of a stretch, but that's my guess.  There was too much setup for an HR sacrifice, IMO.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Tom Cavanagh is on contract for Season 4 and so is Candice Patton, and both were announced as being part of Season 4. But no fan of SLIDERS should take it for granted, of course, that actors will remain.

I was very happy to see Harry back this week. As enjoyable as HR is and as much as Cavanagh clearly appreciates playing something new, Cavanagh has always been best as the father figure of the series, as Professor Arturo, and turning him into Mallory this year left the show a bit unbalanced.

It looks like TF was not quite right about HR being Abra Kadabra, although there's still one episode left.

**

ARROW was good. I was surprised to see Deathstroke back and played by Manu Bennett. For the past few months, Bennett had declared that he was not returning to ARROW, that announcements by the producers were vastly overstating his involvement, that it hadn't been him in INVASION and it wouldn't be him in the ARROW Season 5 finale and that he had been greatly displeased with his last episode and that the ARROW producers were reusing previously recorded dialogue and a stunt double to have Deathstroke appear. So it was nice to see him at the end and realize Bennett had been trying not to spoil a surprise.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

ireactions wrote:

ARROW was good. I was surprised to see Deathstroke back and played by Manu Bennett. For the past few months, Bennett had declared that he was not returning to ARROW, that announcements by the producers were vastly overstating his involvement, that it hadn't been him in INVASION and it wouldn't be him in the ARROW Season 5 finale and that he had been greatly displeased with his last episode and that the ARROW producers were reusing previously recorded dialogue and a stunt double to have Deathstroke appear. So it was nice to see him at the end and realize Bennett had been trying not to spoil a surprise.

Someone should've told the CW about how hard Bennett was trying to cover up the idea of him not returning because his return was in the sizzle reel released a few weeks ago. big_smile

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Ah. I never watch trailers.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Tom Cavanagh will probably be with the show forever, but any number of his characters could still die. HR could die and be replaced next year, in keeping with the pattern. Harry could come back more regularly. It's a weird situation, because we always know the behind the scenes reasons for why characters aren't really in any danger, so we never really feel that tension when watching a show. But with the Wells characters, we really don't know!

I think the writers have shown impressive restraint with the Harry character. We know that Tom is a regular on the show, so Harry could be in every episode, if they waned. However, keeping him away and only using him a few times this season has made him feel like a legitimate guest star. When he shows up, you feel like you are seeing an actor return to the show.

The same thing happened with Sara in season 2. I'd go weeks, wondering when she would reappear... then I'd realize that she was still in the flashbacks, so Caity Lotz hadn't actually gone anywhere.

Please be informed that the political, scientific, sociological, economic and legal views expressed in Informant's posts and social media accounts do not reflect any consensus of Sliders.tv.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I sometimes wonder what the difference is between being restrained and being withholding? That said, the story absolutely demanded that Harry return to Earth 2; there was no compelling reason for him to stay on Earth 1 once Zoom was defeated.

**

ARROW has had a good season as Stephen Amell was apparently successful in convincing the producers to give up on magical resurrections and telekinetic villains and return to street-level storytelling.

There's been some awkward hiccups here and there, obviously -- the Black Siren tease was misguided, Evelyn turning her back on Oliver for being a murderer and signing up with the cop-killing, innocent slaughtering Prometheus remains incomprehensible, Wild Dog giving up his daughter because he spilled soup was bizarre, Thea's absences have been oddly random -- but on the whole, it's been a really great season of moral quandaries, psychological exploration, experimental storytelling (an entire episode of Oliver being tortured! A bottle episode in the bunker! New recruits!) and a very good return to form.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I agree.  I think these writers are better at story, and I think they have a decent understanding on who Oliver is and what makes him tick.  I think they have a respect for the material, and I think tying it all back to the island (where the flashbacks and the main story can finally converge) is pretty cool.

But, yeah, they make some bizarre decisions regarding character motivation.  Oliver's kill/no-kill policy has always been all over the place, and drudging that moral quandry up doesn't work for me.  Evelyn's whole thing doesn't make much sense.   I don't think Chase's motivations are all that logical.  Wild Dog's whole past is bizarre.

They've shown me enough to trust them to work with season 6.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I doubt Informant has kept up, but I'm guessing he wouldn't have enjoyed the Supergirl finale much.  A lot of sappiness, but also a *ton* of Superman telling Kara that she's better/stronger than him.

I actually thought it was pretty good.  The Superman/Supergirl fight was a bit understated, but I thought it was pretty well done for a CW budget.  All in all, I've been pretty impressed that I haven't really noticed much of a difference in the budget from CBS to CW (Metallo's awful suit notwithstanding).  Man of Steel is a more realistic depiction of the carnage that would be created by Kryptonian-on-Kryptonian brawls, but for TV, I thought it was pretty cool.

I also sorta love the little hints that Superman has been in an 11-season show, and we're seeing glimpses of it.  He drops hints of Warworld, and the Zod stuff is simply played off as if we already know who he is.  I thought that was a pretty cool way to do the Supergirl/Superman fight.  I don't love Tyler Hoechlin as Superman, but I think he works for the show.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Well, The Flash finale has aired...

You called it with HR dying, which is sad.

I am outraged that they got rid of Barry! This was obviously done because the studio didn't want two Barry Allen's at one time, so they got rid of him, just like Amanda Waller. We should start a petition! Wally is a bland character who can't carry the show!

I'm kidding, of course. We all know that Barry will be back... Right? The real question is, how does Wally have powers? If Savitar is wiped from the timeline, shouldn't his deeds be undone?

How do we think Barry will return? And do you think they will move on from Star Labs, or just fix it up? Will Caitlin ever come back to the group? With she take the cure and get her hair back to normal?

Please be informed that the political, scientific, sociological, economic and legal views expressed in Informant's posts and social media accounts do not reflect any consensus of Sliders.tv.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I already deleted it, and I forgot....was Tracy with the group at the end?  Was Julian?

I actually left sorta hoping that Barry was gone for good....that's sorta where his character has dropped for me.  And Wally wasn't as annoying in the second half of the season...I think being trapped in the Speed Force brought him back down to Earth a bit in a much better way.  I almost think it'd be better for the show if they didn't have Barry's baggage dragging it down.

Of course, they won't do that.  But maybe some time trapped in the Speed Force will do Barry some good.  We need him to FINALLY let go of his demons and just have fun.  Let Oliver be dark and brooding...let Barry be the light of the Arrowverse.

As far as the team goes, they should keep Tracy on board if Caitlin is truly gone (I thought her staying as Killer Frost was a really bold move).  I think Julian could be a good member too.  I'm also hoping Harry stays on too.

It was a very meh season.  We need a soft reboot.  Come back fixed, Barry.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

The past year has been pretty bad for me, and I've missed practically all of the 2016/2017 tv season.   I did the best with Flash, but still missed a good half dozen of those too.

I've only really watched two episodes of Supergirl this year - the premiere and the finale.  In the premiere I saw the potential; and in the finale they delivered. Very well done.   I'm most interested in where they left Mon-el.

Similar to the comics, Mon-el will die of lead poisoning on earth but ends up in the Phantom Zone. In the comics, this was done because the Zone essentially kept a person in stasis - Mon-el's condition would not get worse while they worked on a cure, but it also had the effect of freezing his aging process.  Mon-el spent 1000 years in there until the Legion of Super-heroes stumbled across him, and Brainiac 5 whipped up a cure for the poison.

What I see being set up in the tv series is a potential love triangle situation.  If Supergirl meets up with the Legion next season, then she may follow the comics and get into a relationship with Brainiac 5.  After they've been together awhile, he stumbles on Mon-el in the Phantom Zone.  He can save Mon-el; but what will that mean for his relationship with Supergirl?  Is Brainiac 5 the hero or will he be the villain everyone mistakes him for?

But with the "cliffhanger" tag on the end of the episode, I'm not sure that's in their immediate plans.  That entire sequence screamed Doomsday to me (the skull in the shield?  really?); and I'm excited to think they may actually do something I suggested before season two ever aired.  Could next season tell the comics version of The Death of Superman?

Supergirl would be a great way to explore that story as she becomes the vehicle for taking us to all of these things that are happening.  Supergirl initially finds Doomsday, and he swats her like a fly.  Doomsday marches on until Superman sacrifices himself to stop Doomsday.  Kara feels guilty, and takes Clark's place in Metro; but not for long after a news report hits that a teenage kid has shown up in National City claiming he's Superman.  She goes to check out this Superboy in her city; but while there the Eradicator posing as a Superman shows up because that's where his scans showed the Krptonians on the planet at that time.  Jeremiah Danvers reappears now with more obvious cybernetic enhancements as Cadmus rolls him out as the new Superman (giving us our Dean Cain return in a Superman suit).  While all of this is going on, John Henry Irons is setting himself up as Metropolis's new protector since no one else is there to do it.

It has great, great potential.  I could see it being epic.  But in most cases, I'm usually disappointed by what these production teams end up giving us; so my hopes are not up.

With the Flash finale - we'll, we could have had a lot more fun if HR was Abra Kadabra.  wink  Again, kind of a let down in some ways, but it ultimately was an entertaining episode.  With the ending, I'm just not sure what they're going for.  I guess they're treating this like Barry's death in Crisis where Wally takes over in the red suit?  Then we'll have Barry return after Wally has established himself as the one and only Flash.  If that's their plan, it just seems like an anti-climatic way to set up that story.  Oh well; we'll see.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

When I was watching live, I thought they were referring to Doomsday too.  But the last words were "it will reign" - so people are speculating that they're talking about this character.

http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Reign_(Prime_Earth)

I don't know anything about her so I'll defer to any of you guys.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I know that Julian was there, because Barry shook his hand. I think Tracy might have been, but I can't really remember.

The thing to remember is the newspaper. The headline still mentions the Flash disappearing after a crisis, and it's clearly a picture of Barry. So, I don't think that this is that. Unless Barry goes into the future for this crisis, and his "disappearing" is just him going back home to the present. Still, it would mean that his going into the speed force wasn't a take on the comic book storyline where Wally becomes the Flash.

I have not been following Supergirl. Since there are so few other shows to watch, I was considering trying to catch up when it hits Netflix next week, but everything I read about it sounds so bad. I just don't think that I can. I might try to force my way through Agents of SHIELD, but we'll see how that goes.

Did they explain why they wouldn't just send Mon-El to one of the other Earths that Kara is now familiar with? It seems more logical than him flying away in a space ship, if they ever want to see each other.

Please be informed that the political, scientific, sociological, economic and legal views expressed in Informant's posts and social media accounts do not reflect any consensus of Sliders.tv.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Yeah, I think there's a less-than-zero chance that Barry is gone.  I just feel like his character is such a mess that it wouldn't be the worst thing if he never came back.  And that's notable since "Barry getting replaced by Wally" was my exact fear going into this season.  Season 3 just left a bad taste in my mouth.

I'd probably check out Agents of Shield before you check out Supergirl.  I still like Supergirl, but I don't think they changed anything.  Shield, at least in my opinion, is noticeably better.

It probably makes more sense to send Mon-El away (with the other Daxamites) because he could, at least, be with his own kind.  Sending him to Earth 1 might make for some interesting storytelling (he'd be the strongest character in Earth One, right?), but I think sending him into space makes more sense (for him) than sending him to a planet where he'd be the only alien.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Well, that was a heck of a cliffhanger on Arrow.

It was also quite the spectacle.  A ton of characters returning, one big death (off screen but confirmed by the actor), potentially a ton of big deaths (but certainly not), some pretty good action, and the culmination of five years of storytelling.

But I left it sorta "meh" for whatever reason.  I thought it was well acted and well executed, but something about it felt really off to me.  What could've felt like a triumph of Arrow just sorta happened.  I don't know what it really was about it that didn't work for me...was it like that for anyone else?

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Arrow finale -

Overall, I liked what they did with the episode. It was pretty much what the 100th episode should have been. It felt like the end of the series that we have been watching up to this point, so I'm curious to see if they take things in a different direction next season.

It would have been nice if they had gotten Caity Lotz to come back, but I guess that would have required a lot of explaining.

I'm glad that Malcolm is dead. I hope he stays that way. His character is just nonsense at this point.

I had a hard time understanding Evelyn, and even Black Siren. At one point, alt-Laurel seemed to feel something toward the people whose doubles she knew back home, but then she shifted back to being eeeeevil without much explanation. However, I did enjoy the battle between so many familiar characters on both sides. Nyssa vs Talia was cool. Slade coming back as an ally is awesome. I could see him becoming a member of Team Arrow, or at least coming in for the big events.

Olicity... gag.

The cliffhanger... Okay, this is a good place to discuss one problem with Adrian Chase. He was a good villain, don't get me wrong. I definitely think that he worked as the villain for this third season of the show, and closing out whatever chapter of Oliver's life they're now closing. However, there were times when he was a little too much of a McGuffin factory. He seemed like some supernatural force of evil that knew what Oliver was going to do, no matter how unusual it was. By always being one step ahead of Oliver, right up until the credits rolled, made Oliver look less capable than he really is. There was no way to explain some of the things that Adrian did.

So yeah, he was a good villain for Oliver to fight, and it's even worse because he actually won in the end. However, it was hard to believe in him as a character. He was more of a representation, or a supernatural creature of some sort.

Now that cliffhanger. They quite possibly just cut the budget of the show by a ton! But let's face it, most of those characters lived. I think Malcolm might really be dead (Malcolm and Crowley in one week... is it Christmas?) but Black Siren, Rene and Dinah will definitely be back, because they've been signed as regulars. Which means that everyone else probably lived too, unless they decide to kill off Slade or William's mother, just for the heck of it. So, how do they survive?

If I were Felicity, I'd probably have just found a way to contact Cisco and have him Vibe the whole team out of there, but that might be too simple.

Please be informed that the political, scientific, sociological, economic and legal views expressed in Informant's posts and social media accounts do not reflect any consensus of Sliders.tv.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Informant wrote:

If I were Felicity, I'd probably have just found a way to contact Cisco and have him Vibe the whole team out of there, but that might be too simple.

Don't get me started on the lack of communication between Team Flash and Team Arrow.  Couldn't Barry have fixed 99% of the problems this season?  Barry could've found William before Chase even knew what was happening without putting anyone in danger.

What's funny is that a couple lines of dialogue would fix stuff like this.  "Can't we just get Barry to super-canvass the island?"  "He's not picking up.  Not even Cisco.  Must be something with Savitar."  They do little things like that at times (when it was mentioned that Felicity was looking for something to power the cannon on Flash), but there's not enough of it to avoid question marks.  I know that there needs to be some separation (otherwise Oliver has no reason to do anything but investigate and point Barry in a direction), but for big events like this, they need to acknowledge that they're on their own.

Black Siren has a really bizarre sense of loyalty.  Evelyn was just evil for no reason.  I got nothing on either of their random decisions to be evil.  I also thought Boomerang immediately switching teams was strange.

I actually didn't like Chase as a villain.  I don't know why....it never worked for me.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Captain Boomerang's switch did make sense to me, because I was sitting there, wondering why he was working with Oliver in the first place. When he switched back to the bad side, I was like "Well... yeah."

Please be informed that the political, scientific, sociological, economic and legal views expressed in Informant's posts and social media accounts do not reflect any consensus of Sliders.tv.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I might've missed the dialogue, but did he do it because Chase was evil and he's evil?  Was Chase paying him?  I figure he's more of a soldier for hire...working with whoever is going to pay him.

It's also why I didn't understand why Black Siren was helping Chase.  She didn't have anything to gain by helping him....she was already free.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

They both seemed to be working for Chase because he got to them first. There wasn't much detail on any of it.

I hope we get a good reason for why Black Siren is evil next year. Is this a Killer Frost situation, where she can be saved? Or was she evil before she ever got her powers?

Please be informed that the political, scientific, sociological, economic and legal views expressed in Informant's posts and social media accounts do not reflect any consensus of Sliders.tv.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I thought ARROW's Season 5 finale was a good ending to a good season.

**

THE FLASH has been really off this season and there was the overwhelming sense that each individual episode was written without a clear plan for the entire season as a whole. FLASHPOINT made no sense in why Barry's mother being alive meant he never knew Iris or why Joe was a drunk; Barry undid Flashpoint for no particular reason and this led to other irrational changes (Cisco losing his brother, Caitlin having the metahuman gene).

Then there's Caitlin developing a split personality, again, for no reason. There's Savitar seeming to have read a few pages ahead in each script, but at no point was there any real sense that Savitar actually knew the Flash and his friends, so the reveal that Savitar is a future version of Barry didn't really hold any weight, and any impact was diluted by Savitar having nothing to do with Barry's actions, nothing to do with Flashpoint and being the result of something the Flash would do in some future situation we never saw.

We have a series finale where Barry reaches out to Savitar as a friend and the plotline is abruptly dropped for no reason. And then the ending of Season 3 -- for no reason, the Speed Force is suddenly threatening our world and Barry's sacrifice is needed. There was no build to this development, it isn't the result of Barry's actions. There were a lot of strong episodes in Season 3, but, like SUPERNATURAL, nothing cohered at the endpoint.

There were all these great ideas, but the finesse and care and detail was not sustained sufficiently over numerous episodes to make them work over the course of a year and to bring them to a climax at the end.

I get the sense that showrunners Greg Berlanti and Andrew Kreisberg are just really divided across too many shows. ARROW has Marc Guggenheim and Wendy Mericle as the lead producers and their focus on ARROW really helped this year. SUPERGIRL has always had Ali Adler.

LEGENDS and FLASH seem to have received less attention and effort this year with Berlanti working on ARROW and LEGENDS and SUPERGIRL and BLACK LIGHTNING and RIVERDALE and at this rate, Berlanti will be responsible for 95 per cent of all network TV by 2022 and all of it will be crashingly average at best.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Question: Should Power Girl appear on The Flash or Arrow?

The alien thing has already been addressed, right? Would it be cool to see an Earth-1 or 2 version of Kara show up, rather than havin Supergirl cross over whenever they want to use Melissa on the show?

Please be informed that the political, scientific, sociological, economic and legal views expressed in Informant's posts and social media accounts do not reflect any consensus of Sliders.tv.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Well, they need to address where Clark is on Earth-1.  They've made implications that Superman exists in the universe (the biggest example is Rip Hunter's comment about "Men of Steel" in the Legends pilot).  So where is he?  Is he younger than everyone so he hasn't shown up?  Did his pod get knocked off course?  Or is he doing some sort of Red-Blue Blur thing in Metropolis and trying to stay off the radar.

But that's a pretty cool way to bring Kara in.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Slider_Quinn21 wrote:

I'd probably check out Agents of Shield before you check out Supergirl.  I still like Supergirl, but I don't think they changed anything.  Shield, at least in my opinion, is noticeably better.

Why Informant will never want to watch SUPERGIRL in one scene:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQ0dE6fqEPY

Why Informant will never want to watch AGENTS OF SHIELD, again, in one scene:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCl2ww6JJxA

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Ha, yeah.  Both also used "nevertheless, she persisted."

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

See, I'm not really offended as much as I just think it's bad writing. To take subtle jabs at Trump that are hollow, trying to make him seem like some part of an extreme movement to take away rights and all of that... it just tells me that these writers get their news from Comedy Central and have no idea what they're actually talking about. There's no meaning behind it. There is no clever message. It's hollow, which is the problem that I've had with these shows since the start. They have no soul and no purpose.

Ugh. I was going to give AoS a chance this summer, but now I remember why I dropped the show. It's like watching a mouse on a wheel. Cute for a while, but it ultimately goes nowhere and gets boring. Then it craps all over the place and eats its young, because mice are disgusting.

Please be informed that the political, scientific, sociological, economic and legal views expressed in Informant's posts and social media accounts do not reflect any consensus of Sliders.tv.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I want to take a moment to grieve for Informant whose genetic inability to have fun has clearly taken a clear turn for the worse to the point where standard superhero speeches about standing up to tyranny and intimidation have become an obnoxious gauntlet of irritation.

It must be tough for him to get through the day believing that anyone who writes words rejecting "alternative facts" and urging "resistance" must be ignorant and stupid as opposed to having a different point of view. Let us all take a few minutes of silence to reflect upon Informant's torment.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

No, I think that using Trumpisms when referencing Nazi-like organizations or evil alien invaders is sloppy writing. And I am baffled that 8 years of prime Obama material went completely unnoticed by these writers, but I don't actually expect them to hold their King to the same standards as an American President.

But I have fun, and these lines would be fine with me if they existed as weak spots in otherwise solid shows. But they don't.

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698 (edited by Slider_Quinn21 2017-06-03 14:51:18)

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

http://www.superherohype.com/news/39837 … he-thinker

What do we think?

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Erica Durance is coming to Supergirl, replacing the actress who played Kara's mother (who is now unavailable).  It's weird to pick her for that role (instead of something else) since I'm assuming a lot of Arrowverse fans also watched Smallville, but it'll be good to see her again.

I wonder if they'll get Tom Welling.  I'm still hoping that the Smallville universe is out there in the multiverse....I'm still shocked that the original Flash universe is officially included and Smallville isn't.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

That is weird. That is so, so weird. How do you replace someone who played such a huge role on the show in the first season, with such a distracting replacement, when you don't even need to bring the character back in the first place? Both Kara's mother and her evil twin are dead.

I like Erica. I've been watching her on Saving Hope, so she's still been on my TV. I just think that this is yet another in a long line of poor decisions made by the producers of this show.

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I don't see the problem. Erica Durance and Laura Benanti have very similar builds and if they match Erica's hair to the Season 1 Alura look, it'll work. Erica's aged visibly since SMALLVILLE which should make her look more mother than the teen idol she was as Lois. I think they need Alura or Astra in flashbacks to explain the backstory of the new Kryptonian villain.

My concern is that Erica seems incapable of playing characters who aren't sardonic, self-aware goofballs like herself. When she tried playing the regal and elegant Isis, it was embarrassing. Her attempt to do an Allison Mack impression in a body switch episode was an insult to Allison. Erica is a wonderful performer of her natural persona, but I don't feel she can disappear into a character.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

The problem that I'm having with this news is that the audience today is a lot more advanced than they were 40 years ago. On the one hand, this means that people will generally understand that these are TV shows and they'll roll with some punches (Superman appearing on TV and in films, played by two different actors, in stories that are completely unrelated to each other). On the other hand, it means that you really can't pull off a recasting without it being a brutal and jarring transition.

Casting Erica Durance on Supergirl at all is a nice way to show respect to what came before, but it will also have people thinking about Smallville and her Lois Lane nonstop. It would be hard for her to disappear into any role on that show, but it could probably happen over time. In theory. Personally, I think she's still a little too close to the Superman world right now, but that's just me.

Now, using Erica Durance for such a major recast is like a four car pileup of distractions that can't possibly help sell the story. It's like the producers created a diagram of just how rough they could make the transition for this character, and made sure to hit each point.


The thing is, they don't need Alura or Astra. I know that it was probably their ideal situation, but it couldn't work out, and no matter what they were planning, they could have gone another way. Focus on Kara's father this year. Or bring in Lara instead of Astra. Or have Clark convey the story. Or... whatever. This isn't a train that had already left the station and couldn't be rerouted. It was a train that they knew was heading for incomplete tracks, but they decided to go with it anyway. And this is a symptom of a much larger problem with the series, which is why I can't watch it anymore. They don't care about building a world or telling a story. They're not taking any of it seriously. They're delivering some half-assed garbage week after week, which has more in common with a bad Saturday morning superhero series from the late 80's than it does with a primetime superhero series today.

They have access to great, iconic characters that most writers would kill to work with, and they don't even give a damn. It's irritating.

But I'm already done with the show. There's an alternate version in my head, which I hear is going to cross over with The Flash for a musical. It's going to be epic... but still in my head. smile

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Informant wrote:

The problem that I'm having with this news is that the audience today is a lot more advanced than they were 40 years ago. On the one hand, this means that people will generally understand that these are TV shows and they'll roll with some punches (Superman appearing on TV and in films, played by two different actors, in stories that are completely unrelated to each other). On the other hand, it means that you really can't pull off a recasting without it being a brutal and jarring transition.

See, I'm partially this.  I don't think I have any visual memory of the previous actress.  So they could've gone out in Vancouver or LA and found a handful of obscure actresses who could've played the part, and I might not have noticed.  By picking an actress that I recognize, they're going to make the change noticeable.  That's the only thing that's weird about it for me.

I don't know if Erica warrants a season-long role as a major villain, but she could play a guest villain (the way fellow Smallville alum Laura Vandervoort played Indigo).  Someone new that she could make her own.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

As much as I hate the writing on the show, part of me would love to see Erica's Lois Lane sparring with Calista Flockhart's Cat Grant.

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

The other option could be that Durance is playing a younger Alura and Astra and they'll use makeup to take a decade off her face.

706 (edited by Informant 2017-07-11 21:26:35)

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Semi-related note:

Remember how I mentioned that I was playing around with a Supergirl pilot script because there were times when I was sitting around and I was bored? It started on my phone, but moved to my computer as I was working on other stuff. I dropped it for a while, because I had other life stuff going on, but I picked it back up within the past week or two because I had some free time.

My little dinky pilot project that was just for fun is now at 86 pages (and counting). I think I've taken this too far. smile

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

http://www.superherohype.com/news/40310 … ard-dragon

Arrow has added two pretty great genre actors as villains - Kirk Acevedo and LOST's Michael Emerson.  I'm pretty psyched.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Don't know how many episodes they've got planned for Legends season three, but a regular season order could see Professor Stein absent from the last half:

http://deadline.com/2017/09/bernadette- … 202162008/

I guess they could potentially get around it by having Firestorm stuck in hero mode and Garber phoning in voice overs.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I doubt they'll be having a full season, with all of the shows that the CW has for midseason. Garber has been on a number of other shows during his time on Legends, so he probably has a flexible schedule built into his contract. Legends is what he does for money in between real jobs.

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Legends usually does less than a full order, but they could also have someone "kidnap" Stein and force Jackson to be a "hero without his powers" for an extended period.

Or, like they did with Robbie Amell, they could simply transfer the other half of Firestorm to a new character and kill Stein off.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

TF right again!

http://www.superherohype.com/news/40603 … n#/slide/1

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Well, that's just great. We've lost our Professor Arturo, our Dr. Wells, our Temporal Flux. We've lost Dad.

... good thing LEGENDS is a very silly ensemble show that doesn't really depend on dramatics to be entertaining?

**

One thing that made no sense to me in THE FLASH's third season -- why in God's name did they replace Harry with the fairly useless HR? I understand that there was no narrative reason to justify Harry staying on Earth 1, but it would have been better to shift Tom Cavanagh over to LEGENDS or ARROW for a season rather than keep him on THE FLASH but give him no meaningful role to play.

Recently, I was listening to Tom Cavanagh's podcast, MIKE AND TOM EAT SNACKS -- and Tom's podcast persona, his real life personality -- it's basically the HR character: a ridiculously gregarious exaggerator of absurd passion for the most mundane and minute elements of life (in the podcast, it's junk food) to the point of spending 30 - 40 minutes discussing a single potato chip product in needless detail and applying human characteristics to a snack.

So, I guess Season 3 was the show letting Tom Cavanagh play himself for a year.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Slider_Quinn21 wrote:

Or, like they did with Robbie Amell, they could simply transfer the other half of Firestorm to a new character and kill Stein off.

Guggenheim posts the cover pages of scripts on Twitter, and the cover for Legends episode 5 ("Return of the Mack") had blood splatter on it.  Could be a hint to Stein's fate.

As for where to go without Stein, it would be interesting to see them refer back to how it was handled when Jason Rusch first became Firestorm.  Jason became Firestorm when he was caught in the explosion as Ronnie Raymond died in Firestorm form; and as a result, Jason had no partner.   To become Firestorm, Jason could use *anyone* as his partner with or without their permission - ranging from an 8 year old girl to Superman.  The interesting thing is that Jason didn't always end up being the dominant personality as Firestorm - it depended on the person he merged with.

They've sort of established this already with Jax as he had no partner originally but just adapted to Stein.   If the full Firestorm matrix transfers to Jax, then theoretically he could continue to adapt to have anyone as his partner.  And if they go this route, we could end up with all sorts of interesting combos such as a passive Captain Cold voice in Jax's head or even a dominant Heat Wave as Firestorm with Jax along for the ride.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I'm not sure what to do with Legends, with or without Stein. Somehow, they've manged to take several solid characters from the different shows, and completely destroy them on this mess of a series. Sara is no longer Sara. Firestorm has zero cool factor anymore. I can see why Victor Garbor would want out.

I hope that they don't kill him. They set up an out for him, and they should take it. I still think it was a mistake to kill off Ronnie so soon. It'd be nice if Stein could appear on The Flash from time to time. I'm not sure there is a point in trying to figure out what they will do about Jax. He is barely used as Firestorm anyway.

Legends should be such a fun comic book show. Instead, it's like a production that a fourth grader would put on in their basement.



On the topic of HR, I kinda liked him. I like that he got to be a different kind of smart, and one that Harrison couldn't relate to at all. I thought it was interesting, because TV shows usually make their "smart" characters smart in every way. If they're good hackers, that means that they're good at building gadgets, etc. It makes no sense. It's nice to see a different type of use for a brain that is still naturally brilliant.

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I can't imagine there's any way they'd kill Stein after the Legends premiere.  Let him go home and enjoy his life....he's done enough.

I do think the show needs an older person.  And I'm still trying to figure out what, if anything, their plan is for Rip.  He doesn't seem to have any consistency.  The Time Bureau is a cool idea, but Rip shouldn't be a foil to the Legends.  If anything, in 5 years, someone should've wrestled control of the Bureau and Rip is trying to get the Legends to help him take back control.

And I'm torn on the concept in general because I like the team (for the most part), but I'm very tired of the time travel angle.  I almost wish they'd decide to go into outer space for a year or do something outlandish (settle in some town where supervillains run everything or spend a whole season on Earth 2).  I know the show isn't going to be an anthology show, but it could be an anthology-like show where they change up the concept each year.

**************

I hope the Flash is going through a reboot of the Barry character and not something more devious.  If he's truly passed all the crap from his past and he's ready to just be fun again, I honestly don't care about how they got here.  Getting out of the Speed Force Prison didn't make any sense, and him snapping out of it didn't make any sense.  But I hope it's all real, and Barry is just going to be an optimistic guy from here on out.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I agree with Slider_Quinn21 that "The Flash Reborn" (hmm) didn't make much sense, but it was effective as a means of stepping away from some of Season 3's excesses (hmm). I didn't feel Caitlin was well-served by Season 3 which gave her an evil alternate personality for no real reason and this episode has made it a more interesting conflict while restoring Caitlin to our helpful, lively scientist. It was also a relief to see Barry more lighthearted after his angsty misery of Season 3 that seemed better suited to Oliver Queen than Barry Allen. It was a fun episode.

**

LEGENDS was also a lot of fun for me. On one level, I think it's strange to criticize LEGENDS time travel adventures with the view that you're bored with time travel. On another, it's fair to note that LEGENDS has an extremely repetitive formula for time travel: they enter an unfamiliar time period, get attacked by the locals and so it goes. The character arcs have been extremely shallow and when characters actually change, it's abrupt and jarring. Rip Hunter went from respecting the Legends to dismissing them between the Season 2 finale and the Season 3 premiere, for example.

I don't expect a lot from LEGENDS. It's a dumping ground for characters from ARROW and FLASH who have nowhere else to go; it's much more humour oriented. Sara working at Bed, Bath and Beyond was hilarious; Ray being a glorified intern because Felicity destroyed PalmerTech was very funny. It's a low bar. I really enjoy the running joke of Sara's absurd sex life.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

ireactions wrote:

I don't expect a lot from LEGENDS. It's a dumping ground for characters from ARROW and FLASH who have nowhere else to go; it's much more humour oriented. Sara working at Bed, Bath and Beyond was hilarious; Ray being a glorified intern because Felicity destroyed PalmerTech was very funny. It's a low bar.

I think this is the key to getting much out of Legends.  It's all very "on the surface" enjoyment.  If you try and go any deeper ("why is Rip acting like that?" "what is Sara's sexual orientation again?") then I think the series sort of falls apart.

And that's why I think I'd rather just abandon the time travel aspect and have it function as a dumping ground (like you said) for ideas and concepts and characters that don't make sense in the other shows.  Legends could be used to explain the continuity errors that happen from show to show, explain why team-ups happen randomly for small matters and then aren't happening for bigger matters, deal with what minor heroes/villains are doing when they aren't on the "bigger" Arrowverse stages, etc.

But, yeah, if they're going to stick with the time travel concept, I would like it to be less formulaic.  Even with the lower bar.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I wasn't a huge fan of where we left off with Caitlin this week. Last year was about the struggle between these two extreme versions of her. Normal Caitlin is so buttoned up and good, and Killer Frost is everything opposite of that. So when we left her in the finale and she seemed to be finding a way to bring those two extremes into one balanced person, I was pretty intrigued. Good Caitlin, but with an edge and probably with her powers. Seeing how she was dressed, I thought that this is what we were getting.

But now if looks like we are back to where we were last season, with the two halves competing. Why repeat that?


As for Legends... Yeah, you can't think about it too much. Ray should still be super rich and able to do whatever he wants. Sara should have probably just gone back to Team Arrow. Maybe this season could have been about Ray keeping the team together as an international super spy company, with Rip coming in and out of the picture to recruit them as needed.

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Informant wrote:

Ray should still be super rich and able to do whatever he wants. Sara should have probably just gone back to Team Arrow. Maybe this season could have been about Ray keeping the team together as an international super spy company, with Rip coming in and out of the picture to recruit them as needed.

The whole "Ray working as a lowly worker for some bratty kid" thing was funny, but it makes no sense.  Just because Felicity destroyed his company doesn't mean that he wouldn't still be very-much in demand. 

The problem I have is that, since this show is the "Agents of Shield" of the Arrowverse, is any of their *months* back in the real world ever going to be referenced again?  Will the fact that Sara was living in Star City be referenced?  Will Nate's time as Wally's sidekick be referenced (and if he wants to be a superhero, why pick one that has a Flash)?  Are we ever going to get a scene where Felicity has to apologize for, essentially, starting Ray's career over at square one?

I know these shows function better when the "shared" aspect is more used for fun (like Wally showing up), but it ends up being more distracting for me.  Was Wally helping Nate pre-Barry or post-Barry?  Was the six months that Sara was in Star City before or after or during the Arrow that aired last night?

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Nope. They rarely reference the months or years that they're sometimes stranded in different times. And that's a problem. Even if the show if supposed to be wacky fun, the writers should still be taking their work seriously. They aren't though.

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