721 (edited by Slider_Quinn21 2017-10-13 13:30:53)

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Well, it's weird because they seem on social media like they're working together.  They obviously have to coordinate for the crossover event.  Even something like using Keiynan Lonsdale for his one scene on Legends would take coordination between the two shows.

But it seems like they don't really even care outside of that.  It seemed so coordinated at first, but now it just seems lazy.  Like the Legends writers want to have a scene in Central City so they ask for a character....someone picks Wally....and then someone rubber stamps it. 

It doesn't even need to be anything big....just minor dialogue would make a world of difference.  "Hey, thanks for working the streets for Team Kid Flash, Nate.  You've been a big help since Flash left." or something.  After that, we know why Nate is even bothering to be a superhero in a town that already has several, and we know, generally, what time period it takes place in relative to the other shows.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Legends and Supergirl both suffer from writers who don't take their job seriously. That's why I gave up on Supergirl. Right now, I'm just pretending that Legends takes place in another universe. Somewhere in the Arrow universe is a Sara Lance that wasn't ruined.

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Watched Arrow. I think it was a pretty weak premiere, and unnecessarily so. The five month time jump happened because the show needs to line up with all of the others. It didn't serve this story at all, and the slow trickle of plot killed every ounce of drama and tension on the show. Characters were specifically dancing around facts that they knew but we didn't, and it shouldn't have been that way. This episode should have picked up directly after the finale, with Oliver rushing to find survivors. William tagging along and kinda bonding with Oliver in that moment, instead of Oliver deciding to leave his kid alone on an island that has proven itself to be about as safe as Team Arrow's lair.


Oliver and Felicity. Why? When did this seem like a good idea?

Thea in a coma... I guess it's better than killing her off, but if she can't breathe by herself after five months, I'm guessing that there isn't much brain activity. But it's a TV coma, so I guess it doesn't have to make sense.

I kinda wish that Sara was back on Arrow this year. Having Dinah face off against an evil Laurel is nowhere near as cool as it would be to have Sara fighting her. Maybe they should have put Dinah on Legends for a while and kept Sara on Arrow.

And speaking of Dinah, does anyone else get weird vibes when she and Diggle go on missions together? I swear it looked like they were going to kiss at one point this week, and I hope they're not planning to go there.

The directing was also off this week. A lot of the blocking was just clunky and awkward, and at times it seemed like characters were specifically working around the camera, rather than living in that scene.

I hope the season picks up. The three seasons that we've had of the show so far have been pretty entertaining. I'd hate to see the fourth season of this show turn out as bad as some of those horrible fan films that I saw between season 2 and last year's long-delayed season 3.

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Informant wrote:

I kinda wish that Sara was back on Arrow this year. Having Dinah face off against an evil Laurel is nowhere near as cool as it would be to have Sara fighting her.

I didn't even think of that.  Does Sara even know that Laurel is there?  Wouldn't she want to be in the group that tries to "save" Laurel?  Wouldn't she need to be there for her father after shooting Laurel?

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

You would think. But they've essentially killed off the Sara that we knew on Arrow. The version on Legends might as well be an alternate universe Sara at this point.

They made a mess with Legends, and it's getting every other show dirty.

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

The more I think about it, the more you're right.  I think Sara needs to be on Arrow this year.  I don't know if they'd need to move Dinah to Legends, but one of them could probably go.

Caitlin would actually be an interesting character to move to Legends after Stein leaves.  In a perfect world, that'd allow someone like Felicity to move to Flash, but that's another can of worms to open.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Did the Arrowverse get rid of the intro voiceovers?  I know for sure that there wasn't one in Supergirl, but I don't remember hearing them in Flash or Legends either.  Can anyone confirm?

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Iris had one on the premiere of The Flash, I think. I don't recall any others.

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I did read that Stephen Amell said that there was going to be a new one for season six, but he couldn't say because it was a spoiler.  I'm assuming it was the identity thing.

Supergirl's was really plain, and Legends never took theirs seriously.  Arrow's was the first one, and Flash seems to do the most with it.  So if they wanted to keep theirs, that's fine, but the other two can go.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

http://www.superherohype.com/news/40636 … p#/slide/1

This is the *only* mention of Bruce Wayne in any WB/CW superhero show, right?  Is the Bat-Embargo going away?

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I haven't watched Legends yet. I probably will... eventually... maybe.

Anyway, the funniest part of this week's Flash episode was when Wally told everyone that he left our universe and nobody even noticed. The team doesn't need him, and he's going to leave... And absolutely nobody argued with him about any of this. Cisco gave Harrison a speech about him having a home and how he should stay. Cisco also tracked down Caitlin earlier this season and convinced her to come home, because it was her family and her home and she belonged there. But with Wally, crickets.

The fact is, this Wally just isn't a great character. He doesn't have a lot going on with his story, and I can see why they had him leave. All he ever gets to be is "Not Barry", and he doesn't add much else.

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I think Wally got to be a little more interesting after he became Kid Flash.  He seemed to grow up a bit and become more heroic. 

But his entire arc about being jealous about not having powers and doing anything to become a superhero was very offputting, and it started his character on the wrong foot.

733 (edited by Slider_Quinn21 2017-10-27 10:13:15)

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

After watching the episode, I laughed when the Wally scene happened.  No one argued...it was crazy.

Although I did wonder most of the episode why Wally wasn't helping.  There were a ton of people in mortal danger, and no one was helping.  Couldn't Vibe have vibed the plane to somewhere safe?  Couldn't Caitlin have done something?  Does Team Flash know she still has powers, or is that too dangerous?

So while Team Flash forgot him, I didn't.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Wally has been handled terribly and I don't know why every decision for him was so misjudged. The first thing was the casting: they wrote Wally to be a reckless street racer. But then they hired Keiynan Lonsdale whose screen presence is deliberate, thoughtful, gentle and in no way suited to the Wally that's been scripted. The second thing was keeping him on the show: once Joe's ex-wife died, Wally simply wasn't needed and should have been sent off to college offscreen.

Instead, they kept him around to fill a seat at the family dinners and be Joe's son, a role already filled by Barry that made Wally superfluous. Then they turned Wally into Kid Flash except we already have a character with superspeed in Barry, meaning Wally was again completely extraneous. There was simply no role for Wally on the show and he hung around pointlessly. He has no voice. He has no meaningful contribution. He has no reason to be there.

The Wally West of the comics was interesting because where the previous Flash had been a scientist, Wally was a blue collar guy who had to struggle to find clever solutions against villains who were smarter and more scientifically minded and knowledgeable. Wally's defining trait was his impatience, a character element that was perfect for a speedster. He could not stand to wait for anything and it was both an asset and a liability.

The most prominent Wally writer, Mark Waid, wrote the comic for nine years and then quit, hilariously explaining that when he first started, he was just like Wally; he was ridiculously impatient and wrote the character like himself. But after nine years, Waid had learned how to be patient and couldn't connect to Wally anymore.

The TV Wally hasn't captured any of that and his only real personality trait is that he's in love with Jesse Quick. But it is interesting that Wally West's inessential situation is very much like the comic book counterpart -- when REBIRTH resurrected Barry, the writers erased Wally from reality because they couldn't figure out what to do with him, then brought him back because they felt bad about deleting a character who had been THE Flash for the 90s and 2000s -- but put him out of the way in TITANS.

I'd suggest putting Wally on LEGENDS except I seriously doubt anyone is all that desperate to see more of him and Lonsdale's a decent actor who deserves a better role.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

One problem is that Kid Flash is Flash's sidekick, and that role has been filled by a whole team of other people on the show.

I agree that they should have hired someone who fit the role of the street racer a bit more. Less Disney kid, and more Fast and Furious kid. Then they shouldn't have made his introduction to the West family go so smoothly. He shouldn't have moved in, he should have been raised from a totally different point of view, and viewed Joe as a deadbeat who turned his back on his mother, an he should have clashed with both Barry and Iris more. This could change slowly, over time, but he should have been a distant side character and not part of the team. His becoming a speedster should have been something that happened to him without his wanting it, and as someone who had no strong role models, he could go either way. Barry mentoring him would be as much for the safety of the world as it was for Wally's benefit, and through that relationship, Wally would come to know this side of his family. I wouldn't make him super close to Iris or Joe though. Maybe he's closer to Barry and Cisco than he is to his real family.

And as for love interests... I like Jesse, but c'mon. He should have been going after Linda Park.

I get the hesitation to fill the show with conflict, but with someone who is planned to be around for the run of the series, a drawn out arc shouldn't be out of the question.

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

So, I might be done with Legends. I'm watching the most recent episode now, and it isn't just bad, it's political pandering by people who have no idea what they're talking about. In direct response to Trump being elected, they bring in a new female hero who is Isis in the comics... And then make her Muslim.

Isis isn't Muslim! Making her Muslim would quite possibly get her killed by her own religion, since Isis is derived from a different religion.

And why? Why invent a fictional version of what a Muslim would be (having a brown woman declare that she is Muslim doesn't make her a representative of the religion any more than most TV Christians represent real Christianity). And why is this a reaction to Trump? Feeding into this idea that he is some sort of white supremacist is creating more tension in the country than anything he is actually doing.

Legends isn't the show to push a political agenda. They should be focused more on trying to fix their horrible writing. They are out of their league on both counts, and now the show isn't just bad, it is aggrivating.

So yeah. The show was on its way out with me. This is just the last straw. What is the incentive to watch at this point?

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

For me, the laugh out loud moment in this week’s Flash was Wally pointing out that nobody missed him.  It was so funny because I had honestly forgotten all about him until he showed up and said that.

But I’m also amused that the new metas are essentially the plot of the old Ultraverse comic “The Strangers”:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strange … bu_Comics)

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

ireactions wrote:

I'd suggest putting Wally on LEGENDS except I seriously doubt anyone is all that desperate to see more of him and Lonsdale's a decent actor who deserves a better role.

What's funny is that, if Legends had one the anthology route*, then I think a Wally/Jesse/Harry show on Earth 2 or Earth Whatever could be insanely cool.  Harry putting together his team (like he said in the show) could've been cool.  Wally and Jesse learning to be heroes could've been cool.  And the whole parallel Earth stuff is ripe, of course, for cool cameos from just about anyone who's been in the Arrowverse.  13 episodes of that could be cool and set up Wally any way they wanted.

I don't see any value he'd add on Legends now and could possibly make the entire team obsolete a lot of the time (see Firestorm).

* I know it seems like it recently, but I actually don't want every show to be an anthology show big_smile

739 (edited by Slider_Quinn21 2017-11-08 11:24:37)

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

* Trigger Warning For Informant *

This week's Flash contains an incredible amount of people using "Feminism" as a catchphrase.  It's basically a "Special Episode" with the way it lays things on pretty thick, including a girl....stripping for feminism?

It didn't bother me all that much, but it's the kind of thing you tend to hate.


*****************

And in other commentary, they didn't arrest/capture the bad guy or save the good guy.  Or even acknowledge that this was one of the 12 metas.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

From the looks of things, the 4-way crossover is going to be a lot of fun.  I still think it's weird that they finish it with an episode of Legends of Tomorrow, but there's also a chance that it'll actually be a 4-hour movie and not individual episodes of any of the shows.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I think the crossover has been confirmed to be one big movie, where you wouldn't even know which show you're watching if you didn't see the title card for the series. It is a shame that I'll have to watch the Legends and Supergirl stuff though, but hopefully they can make them less annoying for the crossover.


I was out of town, so I just got around to seeing last week's Flash (and I'm still behind on Arrow). I have to say, I'm tired of the overly comedic, silly episodes. The guy that they cast as Ralph Dibny is annoying, with his Jim Carrey-style delivery of every line. I'd actually rather have Wally back. Also, the campy comedy doesn't work for the show. It just doesn't. I'm all for light and fun, but within the structure of the established series.

I also don't get the Killer Frost arc. When we left her in last season's finale, she was a blend of Caitlin and Frost, bringing those sides together and figuring out what that meant. She didn't take Julian's cure because she didn't want to throw off that balance and ignore either side of herself. So it didn't make sense when she came back as Caitlin this season. And now we learn that she went to Starbuck (or whatever Katee Sackhoff's name is on this show) for help repressing the Killer Frost side, but it didn't work.

This doesn't make sense. What good was Caitlin working for this woman without the ice powers? Why didn't she just take Julian's cure if that's what she wanted? Why did the writers decide to abandon the idea of mixing these two sides of the character, and instead decided to replay last year's arc for her?

So far, this season seems really sloppy. They look like they're attempting to bring lightness and fun into the show, but they're doing it as the cost of the actual story.

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Informant wrote:

This doesn't make sense. What good was Caitlin working for this woman without the ice powers? Why didn't she just take Julian's cure if that's what she wanted? Why did the writers decide to abandon the idea of mixing these two sides of the character, and instead decided to replay last year's arc for her?

I really think they decided to completely reboot the show and basically ignore huge chunks of season 3.

And did the #feminism stuff not completely annoy you?  Even feminists were annoyed at how heavy-handed it all was.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Oh yeah, it was ridiculous. But the whole episode was ham-fisted, so the #feminism thing was just one piece of that mess. I don't even think that it helped the #feminism cause much, because the women pretty much made a mess of the situation and looked foolish while doing it.

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

In other news, did anyone else watch the Supergirl flashback episode?  I thought they did an incredible job casting young Kara and Alex, especially since it was "recent" enough that they could've easily just used the same actresses and "de-aged" them a bit with makeup.

It bothered me at first, but by the end, I thought they were basically nailing the characters.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Is Neal McDonough really cheap to hire as an actor, or is Damian Darhk really that compelling of a villain to some people?  I think he's great at chewing the scenery and being a bad guy and I know he has a connection to Sara, but it's just weird that he's already back as a main antagonist.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

The Flash is getting really hard to watch lately. Last week's episode was just stupid, with the Wells doubles who were all obviously ripped off from movies (in one case, a movie that they directly referenced elsewhere in the episode). Dibny is annoying.

None of these writers were hired because of their ability to write comedy. The show is not a comedy. So, why have we had three stupid "comedic" episodes in a row, and why have they introduced a recurring character who could not possibly exist in any serious episode?

Last year, people (not me) complained that the show was too dark and brooding. This year, they've over-corrected by throwing their series out the window, and coming up with this messy, unfunny, horribly written garbage. If the show keeps going on this path, I'm going to eventually have to drop it, just like I did Supergirl and Legends when they threw quality storytelling out the window.

Hard to believe that Arrow is the least offensive show of the bunch these days. So far, this season hasn't made much of an impact either way... but I am still a couple of episodes behind, so that could change.

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

The Flash stuff is weird.  I do think that Flash needs to be the lightest of the shows, but they don't really need to course correct too much - the perfect template is the first season of the show.  They should know what the characters need to be, and they just need them to be true to themselves. 

For the most part, I think they've fixed Barry.  I don't necessarily think that the show was too dark or brooding, but I think Barry was.  Now he's back to being fun, enjoying being the Flash, being a leader, etc.  The problem is that the rest of the characters are in weird places.  Is Cisco in the lab more or is he a hero?  What the heck is going on with Caitlin and Killer Frost - are they still fighting for control or have they come to some sort of agreement?  Does Iris work at the newspaper anymore, or is she working full-time at Team Flash?  Has Joe's career completely stagnated because Lance had about twelve promotions in the same span of time in Star City.

And this all after Wally's character was so confusing that they just had him leave without anyone noticing.

What's funny is that a lot of these questions are actually interesting character arcs. 

- Does Cisco like being a hero?  Does he fight any crime on his own or only associated with Barry?  Does he have any interest in moving on and starting a Team Vibe or is sidekick work cool enough?

- The Killer Frost stuff has been bad, but there's a great example of this exact thing being very compelling in Legion.  The Cary character is half scientist half warrior - they share a body and work as one even though they're two completely different people.  If they actually had Caitlin and Killer Frost working together like that character, it could be done well.

- Iris could be struggling with wanting to be her own person and wanting to work with Barry.  She could find herself enjoying the role of being the leader of Team Flash (which....she is?  Was...before Harry came back?  I don't know) but also miss being a reporter.  Lots of stuff to work with, but apparently even Candice Patton doesn't know whether or not Iris is even still employed by the newspaper.

And I like Harry, but the show seems to just be an excuse for Tom Cavanagh    to do funny voices.  As much as I like Wells and want him to be on the show, if they're just placating Cavanagh, they should just retire the character.

For me, I think Flash is still okay.  Probably on the same level of Supergirl, which I still enjoy.  I do agree that Legends is the worst and Arrow is the best.  At least Arrow is trying something new with Diggle.

What's frustrating is that they came up with the cool idea (that I'd wanted them to do) to have contracts for the actors to appear on all four shows, and they're not taking advantage of it at all. I don't think the shows should be constantly switching characters, but they could mix things up a bit.  What if Cisco had to join the Legends, allowing Felicity to go to Flash and leaving Curtis in charge of Overwatch on Team Arrow?  Suddenly, Team Flash is struggling with a new dynamic, Cisco is having adventures on his own, and Curtis is struggling with having to be behind a desk all day when he's proved he can be a valuable member of the team in the field.

To me, Legends needs to have a constantly changing lineup to stir things up on the other shows.  What if J'onn joined the Legends, leaving Alex in charge at the DEO?  What if Diggle joined the Legends, leaving Oliver without his right hand man?  As we've discussed, Wally could be interesting on the Legends.  Slade could be sorta fascinating on the Legends.  Imagine Harry replacing Stein on the Legends.  Bring back Roy and put him on the Legends.

There's so many things they could do, keeping Legends fun and interesting but also changing things up for characters and shows that have gotten a bit stale.  Dibney is a weird character because he doesn't really fit a role on Team Flash because Vibe is a better sidekick than Elongated Man is.  But put Cisco on the Legends (for some reason) and have a hole that Barry doesn't even realize he has - he needs a sidekick in the field (for some reason) and now there's a new meta who wants to be a hero.  Give it a shot.  See what happens.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Crisis on Earth X - pretty standard fare so far.  But there was something odd...

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The strangely excited girl who was trying to give Barry a drink before the wedding.  Is that going to be Barry’s time traveling grand daughter Jenni Ognats (otherwise known as XS of the 30th century Legion of Super-heroes)?

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/theflash/images/6/67/XS.png/revision/latest?cb=20091109031025

I haven’t seen every episode this season, so maybe this is old news and she was already introduced.

Also of note are the opening moments of the crossover on Earth X.  Red skies.  Not just a reference to the looming headline in Eobard’s bunker at Star Labs; but also possibly a sign that the true Crisis has reached Earth X first.

https://images.moviepilot.com/images/c_limit,q_auto:good,w_600/vhbl8hgqcadnlnex4emm/dc-universe-fighting-under-the-red-skies.jpg

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

TF, they definitely haven't established that girl, but the way you described her makes me think that you're right.

I saw the first half of the crossover, and I really liked it so far.  They're definitely doing a 4-hour movie instead of beholding to the individual shows.  There are storylines for all four shows going on so far, and I think they're hitting some cool notes.

It does have to be weird for people who only watch Supergirl, though.  It was basically only Kara and Alex for the entire hour of "Supergirl"

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

SPOILERS ON CRISIS ON EARTH X

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All in all, I thought it was really well done.  I thought the villains were great, there was plenty of ways for everyone to be a hero, and the open format of the whole thing was really great so each hour didn't feel beholden to any of the shows.  Lance and Winn showed up almost-exclusively on the Flash hour, Digg showed up exclusively on Legends hour, etc.

I thought the action was great, I thought they moved a lot of stories along, and I thought they made the whole thing feel epic and fun.  People were married, someone died (more on that in a sec), and characters grew.

But....this is a message board and positivity doesn't belong here.  Let's talk about the stuff that kept this thing from being legendary:

1. STEIN.  Are.  you.  kidding.  me.  We talked about this a couple months ago, but how in the Hell did they decide to kill Stein?  No happy ending for a character was easier to write than Stein, and they killed him off anyway.  I get that they wanted something to rally around, and I get that they had an easy guy to write off since Victor Garber was going to leave the show anyway.  But it was SO UNNECESSARY.  They had two dozen characters, any of which they could've killed off with just as much impact, and it wouldn't have been unnecessary.  Let the old man live with his family.  And the way they did it was so dumb.  Killed off by a random Nazi?  When he could've easily done both switches as Firestorm?  UGH.

2. I do not understand the Thawne stuff.  I thought that was wrapped up.  Why Thawne?  Why not just Evil Barry?  Are they *that* worried about doing anything to do with Season 3 of the Flash that they completely ignored an Evil Barry?  And why not just make him Earth X Thawne?  That didn't make any sense to me.

3. They've gotta acknowledge the Kryptonian elephant in the Earth-1 room.  They specifically said that there were 52 Karas - that means Kara exists on Earth One.  Where is she?  Where is Clark?  Why aren't any of them looking for each other?  The first Supergirl/Flash crossover said that there weren't Olivers/Barrys/etc on Supergirl's Earth.  What gives?

4. Oliver was the Fuhrer?  That was a bizarre choice.  Wouldn't they rather have Kara be the Fuhrer?  Or Clark?  Why is an American the Fuhrer of Germany?

5. So is Caitlin just Killer Frost now?  Or is Killer Frost just okay being a hero now?  And I thought they might be trying to set up Mick and Frost, but they just abandoned it.

It was fun.  I liked it.  But some of the choices were really bizarre.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I thought CRISIS ON EARTH–X was good and a strong correction on INVASION last year. The creators filmed four episodes of CRISIS when they would have normally filmed four of ARROW, four of FLASH, four of LEGENDS and four of SUPERGIRL.

As a result, the lead cast (Oliver, Barry and Kara) are evenly distributed across the entire story as opposed to last year where they were front and center for the first, reduced to cameos for the second and only returned fully for the last half of the third episode.

With CRISIS, Parts 1 – 2 feature them prominently. Part 3 has them appearing just as much but has them confined to locations (Kara at STAR Labs, Barry and Oliver either at the Nazi base or the Resistance HQ). In Part 4, the Legends take center stage to start, but Oliver, Barry and Kara resume their lead roles at the 1/3 mark.

As with last year, the crossover frontloads their screentime, then reduces them but has them return in full force for the end. This time, however, the supporting cast were sufficiently foregrounded that it doesn't feel like actor unavailability as much as giving the other characters their spotlight. Jax and Stein have a great rapport and arc throughout the crossover. Alex's uncertainty with a post–Maggie sex life is hilarious. When Mr. Terrific, Wild Dog and Black Canary show up in Part 3 to defend STAR Labs, it feels like a delightful surprise and when the Atom and Nate come to the rescue in Part 4, it feels appropriate to spend some time with them after lavishing so much attention on the stars.

Stein's exit from the series was meaningful and everything Professor Arturo's death wasn't on SLIDERS. It wasn't necessary to kill Stein off, but I appreciate the show wanting to take Victor Garber's departure as an opportunity for tragedy and growth and accept that he wouldn't return as a guest-star or come back next year. Where INVASION felt overblown, incidental and quickly forgotten, CRISIS will leave lingering impact on all the shows: Alex has gotten over Maggie; Barry and Iris are married; Oliver and Felicity are married; the Legends have lost their father figure.

Also, the CRISIS villains were much more effective than INVASION. The Dominators were generic thugs who wanted to invade Earth by attacking one rooftop. In contrast, Overgirl, Dark Archer and the Reverse Flash had clear goals in wanting Kara's heart. In terms of production, the scale was so much larger and yet the story was so much smaller and much more effective.

Production sounds like it was a bit desperate at times. Apparently, even with a four week shooting schedule for four episodes and the crew of four TV shows working on the project, actor availability was an issue. Every single actor had multiple photo doubles filming scenes concurrently so that any sequence that didn't need the actor's face onscreen was used for maximum advantage. The Dark Archer and Overgirl had masks so that it wouldn't be necessary for Amell and Benoist to play them except when exposed. It worked.

Amell says that taking four weeks to shoot four episodes (instead of 16) threw all the shows badly off schedule and that they can't do it again next year -- but from a quality standpoint, the INVASION approach was rather disappointing to me and I hope they don't return to it. It'd be best to accept that a crossover, to serve all the characters and get all of them onscreen for satisfying periods of time, will push back the subsequent episodes.

There were a bunch of minor issues with CRISIS. There were a few shots where the heroes are tag-teaming a villain while Nazi soldiers are firing guns offscreen (at civilians?) which almost makes one think the heroes care more about grudge matches than saving people. I was confused as to why Overgirl and Dark Archer, seeking Supergirl's heart, target an Earth on which Kara doesn't live. I missed the explanation for why only Sarah, Jax, Stein and Mick were at the wedding while the other Legends weren't. These are small issues.

My main problem with CRISIS: Reverse Flash has gone from confusing to inexplicable. LEGENDS got confused with showing Eobard Thawne after his erasure in the FLASH Season 1 finale. The explanation was confusing: he says he escaped into the Speed Force but was captured by Barry for "Flashpoint" except the Thawne in "Flashpoint" was the pre-Season 1 version. Ignore the reference to getting captured and it works to say that "Flashpoint" altered history so that Thawne, before he was wiped out of reality, escaped into the Speed Force, leading to his appearance in LEGENDS -- which ended with him being consumed by the wraith–form of Hunter Zolomon.

CRISIS offers no explanation for how Thawne survived that. It's also unclear why Thawne is working with the Earth–X villains, what he hopes to gain from associating with them or why this arrogant master manipulator and genius is following their plans and serving their goals. Thawne's time on THE FLASH was all about maneuvering Barry, Caitlin, Cisco, Joe and others. His tenure on LEGENDS was marked with controlling Damian and Merlyn. Downgrading Thawne to Overgirl and the Dark Archer's henchman is awkward.

Thawne also doesn't even offer any explanation for why he's played by Tom Cavanagh beyond a joke. He might as well have said, "Matt Letscher was busy this week." There's also a serious problem with Cavanagh's performance as Thawne which recalls neither the measured, aloof manipulator of Dr. Wells or the smug, superior antagonist of LEGENDS.

Instead, Cavanagh plays Thawne as clownishly malicious and it's a strange acting choice. Previously, Cavanagh and Letscher gave Thawne a restrained danger where, because he was so distant, you could never sure if he'd be (faux) avuncular or terrifyingly homicidal. But this time, Cavanaugh's Thawne is so unsubtle that he's predictable and because he's following Overgirl and the Dark Archer's orders, he's not scary. He's just silly.

And then we come to the end where Barry for some reason doesn't kill or incapacitate Thawne. I'm not sure what to think. The truth is, I too would hesitate to kill Thawne because I have no idea how he's alive again or why he's working with the Earth X villains. Without any clear sense of where Thawne's at in his personal timeline, without any clarity as to how killing Thawne could change the past or present (last time, a black hole opened), it makes a sort of sense for Barry to let Thawne go.

The problem is that none of this is onscreen. It's confusing why Barry thinks Thawne will simply leave the fight because the Flash pinned him. It's baffling why Thawne exits the scene willingly rather than rejoining the battle and forcing Barry to fight him again. Thawne's motivations are unfathomable to me here.  Now it falls to subsequent FLASH episodes to explain how Thawne is alive and what he wants now.

It's rather sad that the most significant villain of THE FLASH has become a muddled mess of confusing exposition and mystifying contradictions and reduced to being Dark Archer and Overgirl's pawn. Cavanagh doesn't play this as the original Thawne; I wonder if this was an acting choice or the result of Cavanagh not having played this character for over two years and forgotten what he was like, or if he was trying to distinguish Thawne from Harry and went too far.

The simplest explanation, of course: this isn't Eobard Thawne. It's a time remnant.

752 (edited by Slider_Quinn21 2017-11-30 13:41:59)

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

The Thawne stuff is crazy because it completely diminishes Eddie's sacrifice at the end of season one.  It was fun to have him as a villain in Legends because having a speedster villain against non-speedster characters is fun (because speedster/speedster fights are always more like a race with an occasional punch).

But seriously, Eddied *killed himself* to protect the team and destroy Thawne once and for all.  Now, through various vague explanations, he's back.  So they would've been better off doing anything else and keeping Eddie alive.

Listen, I get it that Flash Season 3 wasn't well received, but I don't think an Evil Barry would've been that outlandish.  Maybe Grant Gustin wasn't available to play two characters, but I think it *has* to be a result of Savitar backlash.  So they go with Thawne, which is fine, but they're doing a parallel Earth episode.....use Earth X Thawne.  Or say it's a Wells clone who got super speed.  Make it an evil Wally.  Or an Evil Jessie.  Evil Jay.  Convoluting Thawne's character (again, destroying Eddie's sacrifice) was just a bizarre choice.

And I get the reasons to kill Stein off.  It does allow for Stein's character to really leave an impact, and his funeral really puts weight on the whole thing.  But if they'd just dropped him off at home and promised to leave him alone, I think that would've worked.  Unlike, say, The Avengers, I don't think the situation demanded a sacrifice, but I do understand why they felt it was needed and killed off a character who was leaving anyway...as opposed to killing off, say, Wild Dog or Caitlin that would have an even bigger impact on the principal shows.

All that being said, though.....the way they did it was awful.  Random Nazi goon did it?  By shooting him as he wandered off?  Make evil Kara do it.  Make Fuhrer Ollie do it, rationalizing why Oliver felt the need to kill him instead of incapacitating him.  Or at least give the Legends a chance to get their revenge.  The guy that shot Stein is vaporized by the actions of Stein himself, right?  He died before Stein did.

I wouldn't have killed him, but the way they did it was very lame.  Even when it was happening, and Stein said they were going to split up I wondered why.  Yes, they needed two tasks done some ways apart, but it looked like Jax could've hotwired and flown across the room in the time it took Stein to get there.  At least drop the old man off where he can get to cover faster instead of making the old guy run across a room.

I'm eager to watch Part 4 again (I kept it on my DVR) because I thought the action sequences were very fun.  There was some uncanny valley stuff with some of the CGI with Barry and Supergirl, but I thought, overall, the CGI was fantastic for TV.

I hope they're able to do another one of these next year.  I understand why they might not be able to....but I'd be okay dropping 2-3 episodes per show and getting a crossover.  A lot of the Arrowverse random episodes are just filler, and this event moved so many stories forward.  It's a great trade.

EDIT - It probably wouldn't have worked to have Evil Wally as Evil Flash since he doesn't really fit in with the Nazi hiring principles.  Whoops.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Well, Eddie's sacrifice did lead to Thawne's automatically arranged confession tape to be released, leading to Henry Allen being released from prison and he did save the team in that moment as Thawne was going to kill Barry and then Caitlin and then Cisco and then Joe and he probably would've killed Tina McGee afterwards, too. Eddie's sacrifice also led to opening the black hole that almost destroyed Central City and cost Ronnie Raymond his life, so it's not like it was all good.

As for Dr. Stein, I think it just goes to indicate that death sucks. Stein died taking a risk by separating from Jax to divide and conquer. He got shot by a Nazi goon which just goes to show that we don't all end in a blaze of glory. With what would likely have been his dying breath, he triggered the gateway to get the sliders home and then he gave his life once again so that Quinn could live. I mean -- oh, you know what I mean. The randomness is actually quite true to life, and is countered by Stein choosing both times to use his death to save someone.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Slider_Quinn21 wrote:

EDIT - It probably wouldn't have worked to have Evil Wally as Evil Flash since he doesn't really fit in with the Nazi hiring principles.  Whoops.

It does bring up an interesting thought, though.  With the full suit and total mask Earth X used (not to mention the blur trick), no one would necessarily know the guy in the suit was black.  With Wally X revealed after damage in a fight, the Nazis would turn on him; and there’s a lot of different angles to take from that point on. What is Wally X’s story and why did he want to be part of the Nazi super team?

Wherever that story went, it would have likely been much more interesting than the convoluted Thawne thing we got.

Incidentally, Thawne taunted Flash at the end by gleefully wondering what face he’ll use the next time he and Flash meet.  What if Thawne comes back with Wally’s face?

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

TemporalFlux wrote:

Incidentally, Thawne taunted Flash at the end by gleefully wondering what face he’ll use the next time he and Flash meet.  What if Thawne comes back with Wally’s face?

It'd certainly be better than how they're using Wally now.  Is he back now?  Or not?  I figured he came back at the end of the last Flash episode to be a part of the crossover but he was only in the first section - he didn't return to the big fight (or, even more bizarrely, return to rescue his sister). 

Wally was actually a decent candidate to be killed off as well.  If he's not going to be on Legends and they're creatively frustrated by two speedsters on the team, at least let him go out a hero.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Just finished the crossover.

I think that if they want to keep doing these (and while they can be fun, I'm not sure that they actually should keep doing these 4-way crossovers, as opposed to smaller crossovers spread across the season) they should just film them either during the summer, or as the first episodes of each series for the season, and then air them during the winter break. Supernatural usually does this when Jensen Ackles directs, so he has time to prep his episode before the season starts.

I agree with a lot of what all of you were saying, so I won't go into everything. The Thawne stuff makes absolutely no sense at all. I don't get why they felt a need to bring him back, and I don't get how they did it without remembering how they did it. These writers get very lazy, and it shows. He also made a reference to having fought Superman in the future. So, does Superman end up on Earth 1 at some point?

The Caitlin thing is similar. In one scene, she looked like Caitlin Frost from the end of last season (white hair, brown eyes, and Caitlin's overall posture), but they never said anything about it. It's like they just let Danielle film a scene without the contact lenses for some reason. The Snow/Frost story continues to confuse, but whatever.

There was a real opportunity for them to do interesting things with Kara's double. She would have been from more or less the same Krypton as "our" Kara, only to be found by Nazis when she crashed here. She wasn't a baby when that happened. So how did this Kara, who would have been a good person when she landed, become this monster? And why didn't normal Kara throw out a line like "Do you think this is what our parents had in mind when they sent you here?"
I also thought that Melissa's acting as evil Kara was pretty weak. Overall, the villains were pretty one-dimensional (and that is a problem, even when writing Nazis), but she didn't do the mustache twirling very well.

Sara... If I say what I want to say, I will be criticized for being sexist. So I will just say this... Dean Winchester is a slut. He sleeps around too much, has too little respect for the women that he sleeps with, and he's getting a little old for that act. They started to have him grow up around season 6, but then they stepped back and he returned to his old ways. I didn't like that decision.
Sara Lance makes Dean Winchester look like a saint. The woman can't be in the same room with another female without jumping her bones. And I get it. They want to make her Indiana Jones, and Han Solo, and all of those other Harrison Ford characters who fight bad guys and sleep with all the girls, but they took it too far. Sara used to be an interesting character (and kind of a serial monogamist, if you ask me, since it was always Oliver or Nyssa). Now she has the same problem as Kara, where they're forgetting how to make her an actual character. Her bedding all of these women throughout history is a joke, but that's all she is anymore.
When evil Lance asked her why she would side with the people that she did, she replied by saying "Because I like men, and I like women"... and that answer made no sense in that context. It's like someone asking her if she wants butter on her popcorn and her response being "I'm bisexual". She allied herself with those people because they're the good guys!
And the response she gave robbed the scene of all of the drama that could have come from her father's double threatening to kill her. (and this reminded me once again that she should be facing Laurel this year, not Dinah)

Sara and Alex actually worked together in the scenes where they weren't doing the awkward sex stuff. Why did they even have to go there? The audience would have been shipping them much harder if they didn't start off by having them in bed together!


Felicity... I remember why I hate her now. She literally interrupted someone else's wedding, so that she could get married herself!?!?! Because it couldn't wait five f___ing seconds?! The Oliver/Felicity stuff in this crossover felt really awkward and forced, like the writers needed some relationship drama, but didn't have any good ideas. I hate this pairing so much, because Felicity is so often a b___h to Oliver, and he just stands there and takes it. If the genders were reversed, would anyone be cheering for this couple? At some point, it's just a form of emotional abuse. Oliver can do better. Hell, he HAS done better, and two of his ex girlfriends, and his ex wife, are assassins!


I'm sure there's more to discuss (like why wasn't Ray at the wedding when he knew the couple more than Sara did?) but it's late. So I will just say... the politics. Maybe it's not as big a deal to the rest of you, but I'm just tired of it. In an episode where literal Nazis with the genocide and the camps, and the doomsday weapons are attacking the plant, the writers feel a need to put in Trump references. It's offensive on so many levels, not the least of which is the fact that they are reducing the severity of what the Nazis did to an insult along the lines of "poopy head". I'm tired of not being able to enjoy a stupid comic book series without having them take jabs like this, which are meant as a jab toward at least half of their audience.

Does any sane, rational, mature human being actually believe that Donald Trump is a literal Nazi? Of course not. He is a lot of things that pretty much all of us would agree on, but a Nazi is not one of them. And yet, this trend of calling anyone you disagree with a Nazi continues, along with the "punch a Nazi" (also referenced in the crossover) line, which has resulted in people who are not remotely Nazis actually being assaulted in the real world. I don't find that funny.

And before everyone says that I'm overreacting to these innocent little jabs, I'd like to remind you that these shows have established other presidents for both Earth 1 and whatever Earth Kara comes from. The Trump references have no place on these shows, and having them in there isn't just petty, it's unprofessional.


Overall, the crossover was fun, but shallow. The writing could have used a few more passes with the red pen, but that doesn't seem to happen much with these shows, and a lot of really basic mistakes are made because of it. The plot didn't always make sense (as mentioned by someone else, they never explained why they attacked Earth 1 if they had been targeting Kara all this time). The dialogue was unpolished, to the point where some conversations made no sense, as writers tried to force their way into a punchline. I agree that it was better than last year, but I'm not sure that these crossovers are worth the effort. They are sloppy and rushed, and pretty much always feel like something that exists outside of the real Arrowverse anyway. These episodes will have a lasting impact, with weddings and deaths, but I don't see how they will be anything but awkward, both when we get back to the normal shows, and when/if we rewatch these on DVD. How do they even handle these episodes on DVD? I haven't checked to see about that.

I'm being super negative, I know. The episodes were fun to watch.

Please be informed that the political, scientific, sociological, economic and legal views expressed in Informant's posts and social media accounts do not reflect any consensus of Sliders.tv.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I just want to reiterate in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost that Informant's political views in no way represent the views of the rest of the Sliders.tv community which is home to many sane, sensible people who are on the opposite end of Informant's opinions and to declare those who disagree with him are mentally ill to do so will not be tolerated in this forum.

I am also going to remind Informant that I opened a thread specifically for his political commentary and it isn't this one and that while he is free to state his views, he is not free to police anybody else's. Any further political commentary whether it relates to TV or the real world will go in the political thread even if I have to personally move it there post by post.

I have put this message board back together more times than God has reconstructed Castiel and I didn't do it for posters to have a place to call those with dissenting opinions insane and in the middle of discussing Reverse Flash and time travel. If that's what you want to do, take it to Reddit.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Informant wrote:

How do they even handle these episodes on DVD? I haven't checked to see about that.

The first crossover with Vandal Savage was surprisingly done right - the Flash episode was included in the Arrow set and vice versa.  If you only bought Flash season 2 on DVD, you still got the full story; you didn’t even have to swap discs as they were already there in order.

For the Invasion crossover, it was initially advertised that the entire crossover would be in the Flash season three set, but that turned out to not be true.   If you want to see every part of Invasion on DVD, then you have to buy all four DVD sets and swap out the discs for each part.  I think it does tell you which part you have on your set, but it doesn’t tell you on what sets to find the other parts.  I guess they think that’s what Google is for.

So I expect Crisis on Earth X to get the Invasion treatment on DVD.  Maybe they’ll surprise me and do it right like they did the Vandal Savage crossover.

As for the insertion of social and political issues into these shows, I regret that people in film have lost their subtlety.  It’s similar to what almost happened with Back to the Future. If the film makers had an unlimited budget and no restrictions, the time machine was going to be a refrigerator and Marty would have gotten back to the future by riding inside of it at the heart of an atom bomb test in the desert.  When it was decided that would cost too much money to be done “right”, they went back to the drawing board and came up with a Delorean that could be powered by a lightning bolt.  An iconic idea was created because of limitations - because of restraint.  With CGI today, we would have gotten the refrigerator.

In our say anything, do anything world today; it seems there’s no reason to put more thought into ideas.  But messages can be delivered by more than just a hammer; and everyone’s product would be better if they placed limits on themselves (even using a simple question like “how do I get someone who hates these ideas to buy them?”).  If the productions thought that way, maybe we could get something like Classic Trek’s “Let That Be Your Last Battlefield” which I still hold to be one of the best spotlights on racism that has ever been put out there (honestly - who even noticed or cared which side of their face was colored until it was pointed out?  For most who saw it - especially kids - it was eye opening to the issue).

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

TemporalFlux wrote:

As for the insertion of social and political issues into these shows, I regret that people in film have lost their subtlety.  It’s similar to what almost happened with Back to the Future. If the film makers had an unlimited budget and no restrictions, the time machine was going to be a refrigerator and Marty would have gotten back to the future by riding inside of it at the heart of an atom bomb test in the desert.  When it was decided that would cost too much money to be done “right”, they went back to the drawing board and came up with a Delorean that could be powered by a lightning bolt.  An iconic idea was created because of limitations - because of restraint.  With CGI today, we would have gotten the refrigerator.

In our say anything, do anything world today; it seems there’s no reason to put more thought into ideas.  But messages can be delivered by more than just a hammer; and everyone’s product would be better if they placed limits on themselves (even using a simple question like “how do I get someone who hates these ideas to buy them?”).  If the productions thought that way, maybe we could get something like Classic Trek’s “Let That Be Your Last Battlefield” which I still hold to be one of the best spotlights on racism that has ever been put out there (honestly - who even noticed or cared which side of their face was colored until it was pointed out?  For most who saw it - especially kids - it was eye opening to the issue).

Look at that! A thoughtful opinion without in any way intimating that those who might have different tastes and views are wrong! Without any effort to intimidate those who disagree into silence! And a thoughtful sense of contemplation that leaves us thinking even if we don't agree.

760 (edited by Informant 2017-12-03 09:37:04)

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Sorry, but I was talking directly about these episodes and these writers, not political beliefs. The belief that Donald Trump is literally a Nazi is not a political belief, because it is a belief that requires a lack of understanding politics. Saying that Donald Trump is not a Nazi is not a political belief, it is a fact. Donald Trump is not a Nazi. Barack Obama is not a Nazi. Hillary Clinton is not a Nazi. Bernie Sanders is not a Nazi... I believe all of these people to be many other things, but to say that they are Nazis is blatantly wrong. If someone out there would like to explain to me how I'm wrong about that, or how it is intimidating for me to state the obvious, feel free.
If these shows are going to continuously voice their views on the subject, I can't be blamed for discussing them. If you're not comfortable with that in a discussion about silly comic book shows, welcome to my world. You didn't have a problem when the actual writers of the show did it, probably because you thought it was funny.

I wasn't commenting on their politics. I was commenting on their maturity and professionalism.


And on another note, how come nobody thought of using evil Oliver's dead body to get normal Oliver cleared of those charges that he is facing? Showing that there are two identical Oliver's running around would make the "beyond a reasonable doubt" thing pretty hard. Though I kinda think they might go ahead and send Oliver to prison next year.

Please be informed that the political, scientific, sociological, economic and legal views expressed in Informant's posts and social media accounts do not reflect any consensus of Sliders.tv.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I don't manage the Arrowverse. I do manage this board. And on this board, disagreeing with Informant does not make one insane, irrational or immature and any remarks or language that intimidate dissent into silence are unacceptable regardless of whether intentional or not. No one should have to fear being attacked or mocked for not sharing another poster's worldview.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Such as Alex's  "punch a Nazi" comment, which has led to people being physically assaulted in the real world, despite the fact that they have nothing to do with Nazis? I agree. I find it disappointing that you're willing to take a bold stance against my condemnation of that call to violence, but you're silent on the call itself.

Please be informed that the political, scientific, sociological, economic and legal views expressed in Informant's posts and social media accounts do not reflect any consensus of Sliders.tv.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Informant wrote:

Such as Alex's  "punch a Nazi" comment, which has led to people being physically assaulted in the real world, despite the fact that they have nothing to do with Nazis? I agree. I find it disappointing that you're willing to take a bold stance against my condemnation of that call to violence, but you're silent on the call itself.

Please accept my gratitude and appreciation for your civility and see the political thread for my response.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

TemporalFlux wrote:

The first crossover with Vandal Savage was surprisingly done right - the Flash episode was included in the Arrow set and vice versa.  If you only bought Flash season 2 on DVD, you still got the full story; you didn’t even have to swap discs as they were already there in order.

For the Invasion crossover, it was initially advertised that the entire crossover would be in the Flash season three set, but that turned out to not be true.   If you want to see every part of Invasion on DVD, then you have to buy all four DVD sets and swap out the discs for each part.  I think it does tell you which part you have on your set, but it doesn’t tell you on what sets to find the other parts.  I guess they think that’s what Google is for.

So I expect Crisis on Earth X to get the Invasion treatment on DVD.  Maybe they’ll surprise me and do it right like they did the Vandal Savage crossover.


This would annoy me, if I were buying the DVDs. Some people today don't even watch the shows as they air (some don't even have the option), so now those people will have to deal with the fact that major series-altering events took place on completely different shows. Barry and Iris, and Oliver and Felicity got married on Legends. That's going to be a mess when it comes to syndication, DVD sales, as well as streaming. Even if they keep these episodes out of the normal DVD sets and just release Crisis on Earth-X as its own thing, it will mess with casual viewers, and people who only watch one or two of the show.

Please be informed that the political, scientific, sociological, economic and legal views expressed in Informant's posts and social media accounts do not reflect any consensus of Sliders.tv.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

It'd be hard to keep the episodes out of the sets since so many crucial things happened.

I don't know why they can't just release all episodes on all the sets.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Because then you wouldn't have to buy all of the sets.


This is why it became impossible for me to keep up with comic books.

Please be informed that the political, scientific, sociological, economic and legal views expressed in Informant's posts and social media accounts do not reflect any consensus of Sliders.tv.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Yeah but my response would be to buy *none* of the sets hahah.

The shared universe is cool if you're up-to-date but it's gotta be a nightmare if you're not caught up.  And probably not worth the time.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I actually think Legends answered the whole "why kill off Stein when he could be happy?" question pretty well in the fall finale.  Yeah, death sucks and Stein didn't want to die, but he lived a full life and was ready to accept that it was his time to go.

Since Jax is leaving the show too, seemingly, it might've been better (read: more tragic) to have Jax be the one who dies (hopefully, more heroically), allowing Stein a bittersweet homecoming.  Maybe Stein leaves the Waverider, Jax tries to be a hero on his own, and he dies.  So Stein will always have to wonder whether or not he made the selfish move or not.

Either way, I feel a little better about the decision.  And I started wondering....is Legends actually handling character growth the best of the four series?

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I'm not sure I would really compare LEGENDS' characterization to the other shows except to say that Dr. Stein's post-mortem was indeed well written and a nice coda to Victor Garber's exit from the series. While I was fine with Stein's exit, I'm glad that the subsequent episode gave Slider_Quinn21 everything I tried to share.

"I may have a life ahead of me but to you, I'm a ghost. I'm not going to cheat death, Jefferson. None of us live forever. And yet, I clearly live a wonderful life with many chapters and if I had one wish, it wouldn't be for me to prolong my life. It would be for you to live yours. To have all the happiness you deserve."

It reminded me, actually, of Wally West's self-sacrifice in DC REBIRTH #1. In the 2011 reboot, DC made all its characters 10 years younger and removed most of the later-generation heroes like Barry Allen's redheaded nephew, Kid-Flash/Wally West with no mention of what had happened to him and no one ever referring to him. REBIRTH shows Wally unstuck in time, observing the New 52 universe and realizing that 10 years have been ripped out of reality along with relationships and friendships, causing the heroes to become isolated, corrupted and alone. Batman and Superman aren't friends; Green Arrow and Black Canary don't know each other and feel a strange sense of loss they can't explain and Wally West was erased from everyone's memories.

The unstuck Wally attempts to re-tether to reality by seeking out past friends -- Batman, Nightwing, Cyborg, the Justice Society -- but nobody, not even Wally's wife, Linda, remember him. Wally, decaying and about to dissipate into the Speed Force and lose all memory and identity, sees the *other* Wally West -- an African-American cousin who, like Wally, was named after their great-grandfather Wallace. Wally sees his cousin exhibit superspeed and realizes there will be a new Kid Flash. Wally then sees Barry rescuing schoolchildren from a fire, bringing them all pizza and realizes that even without Wally, the legacy of the Flash will continue.

And Wally, now barely a ghost, manifests to Barry. Barry doesn't recognize him. Wally tells Barry, "You don't know who I am and you won't remember -- so this is hello and good-bye." An uncomprehending Barry protests, "Who are you?" But Wally, fading into the Speed Force, has little time left and can't explain. Instead, he warns Barry that a mysterious being has attacked reality and removed love, legacy and family from the DC Universe.

And as the Speed Force is about to take him, Wally cries out, "Thank you for an amazing life. Thank you for your kindness. For your inspiration. For being there for me so many times. For now. The last time. That's why I won't die in anguish. Every second was a gift." Wally's final act is to express his love to his uncle who doesn't even know him.

And I think that's what a superhero is supposed to do; a superhero should face all the hardships and inevitabilities we all face, but they should represent our most graceful, responsible, aspirational, compassionate selves and we should all seek to face death with the same spirit that Dr. Stein and Wally faced theirs. Death scenes often define superheroes for me...

Although, in Wally's case, he actually survived.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

ireactions wrote:

I'm not sure I would really compare LEGENDS' characterization to the other shows except to say that Dr. Stein's post-mortem was indeed well written and a nice coda to Victor Garber's exit from the series. While I was fine with Stein's exit, I'm glad that the subsequent episode gave Slider_Quinn21 everything I tried to share.

You were convincing, but it's the show's responsibility to sell it.  You were more eloquent, but they did a good job.

And the only reason I say that Legends is better at characterization is that...there's forward momentum.  Arrow is probably the real answer (as they've evolved the "team" to a point where they had a whole stretch of episodes, not devoid of action, where Oliver didn't even fight).

But whereas Flash moved to a place where they've given powers to a Cisco and Caitlin and added versions of Wells, that show is still mainly Cisco/Caitlin/Wells assisting Barry as the Flash.  I'm not even sure Barry, honestly, has really grown as a character.  They added Wally with no impact.  They added a romance subplot and let everyone in on the secret, but the show really hasn't grown.

(Of all the shows, I think Flash could benefit from sending a character or two to another show.  Their team needs a shakeup)

Supergirl, while fun and adding new elements all the time, also is pretty status quo-ey (which, I know, isn't a word).

Legends, on the other hand, at least tries certain stuff.  It delves into the Legends' childhood to explain why Mick is such an asshole or why Ray is so upbeat and positive.  It's used Damian Darhk too much, but it's a character that the star of the show (Sara) has a deep, emotional connection to.  Even bringing Earth X Snart to deal with Mick was better character building than we've got out of Caitlin (especially on a night where they tried to do a Caitlin character episode).

Legends is probably the worst show of the four, but the Firestorm exit was about as good as anything that the Arrowverse has done.  Of course, with so few actual deaths across any of the shows, I guess it's not that hard.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

http://www.superherohype.com/news/40913 … e#/slide/1

This is a weird strategy.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Slider_Quinn21 wrote:

http://www.superherohype.com/news/40913 … e#/slide/1

This is a weird strategy.

Reminds me of the old “wheel format” where four different shows were shown on a rotating basis.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_NBC_Mystery_Movie

This was actually the plan for Sliders season four if it stayed on Fox.  They were going to produce fewer episodes and place it in a wheel with The Visitor, a time travel type show that wasn’t picked up and one of Fox’s reality shows like “When (blank) Attacks!”.  Under that plan, Sliders would have aired only one time every four weeks with no reruns.

I almost wonder if this is a kind of test run for CW.  Imagine one or two slots per week dedicated to DC programming, and it rotates.  One week it’s Arrow; next week it’s Flash.  And if they crossover more, it’s really like one big DC anthology show broadcast 52 weeks a year.  Doing it in that staggered schedule would make production breaks overlap another show’s filming and that could make crossover production easier as an actor could pop in for a week during their months off.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Spoilers for the Arrow midseason finale...



First, I'd like to say that the writers haven't learned their lesson when it comes to Felicity or Olicity. It wasn't too bad this year when she was just one member of the team, but pushing the relationship has really made her annoying again. She was designed to be a supporting character, not the female lead.

Second... Thea just woke up from a six (plus) month coma, and she just hops out of bed and gets back to normal life? Why do shows insist on doing these massive medical arcs if they refuse to follow up on them? Thea was long past the point where anyone would expect her to wake up, especially without any permanent neurological issues. But it's a comic book show, so fine. But zero rehab? Zero recovery time? This isn't as bad as Oliver being stabbed and thrown off a cliff, only to walk it off. Or Felicity being incurably paralyzed for a couple of episodes. However, it is still frustrating.


I feel like the team splitting up is an act, put on for the cameras in the Arrowcave. Maybe I'm wrong, but I didn't feel any sense of doom or kiss from this.

Also, I still don't get why they didn't use the evil Oliver corpse to get Oliver's charges dropped. If they can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that someone with his face, his DNA, and his fingerprints is out there doing bad things, they really can't prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that it was our Oliver who they've been tracking this whole time.


And one last question... Does it really follow Vigilante's MO to join a supervillain club?

Please be informed that the political, scientific, sociological, economic and legal views expressed in Informant's posts and social media accounts do not reflect any consensus of Sliders.tv.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

TemporalFlux wrote:

I almost wonder if this is a kind of test run for CW.  Imagine one or two slots per week dedicated to DC programming, and it rotates.  One week it’s Arrow; next week it’s Flash.  And if they crossover more, it’s really like one big DC anthology show broadcast 52 weeks a year.  Doing it in that staggered schedule would make production breaks overlap another show’s filming and that could make crossover production easier as an actor could pop in for a week during their months off.

Now that'd be interesting.

I do think that something like this should be an option for streaming services.  Where if you decided to binge watch "The Arrowverse", you'd get Arrow at first....then you'd start getting some Flash.  Then you'd get Legends and Supergirl until you're eventually watching every episode by air date.  You'd watch it all the way we all did....as it happened.  I'm sure you'd have to work out some sort of system where cliffhanger episodes are arranged next to each other (because, otherwise, people would do it anyway).  So when Zoom nearly kills Barry, you don't have to check in with the Legends before you find out what happens.

*****

Regarding Arrow.

I think the Olicity stuff needs to just be let go.  Maybe she wasn't designed as the female lead, but she's there.  It's over.  She and Oliver are married, and that's it.  I'm much happier for it to just be over, with no more "will they, won't they?"  They did.  Now let's move on.

I think the beginning was a lot, but since the wedding technically took place on an episode of Legends of Tomorrow, I think they wanted to have an appropriate "wedding" on the show itself.  And while I think a lot of fans treat her like Seven of Nine, Felicity was actually there from the beginning so it's not like she showed up and kicked someone off the show - she "battled" Laurel for the spot, and she "won"

With Laurel back and a complete badass, I think that's what they're giving the Olicity haters.  Although, while there was a *very little* movement on the "can evil Laurel be saved* front, that story is moving at a glacial speed.

***

Regarding Vigilante, I wonder if he's some sort of mole.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

My problem isn't so much the fact that Olicity is happening. It's more that Felicity is horrible in large doses, and is better as a side character. I think this is both about how the character is written, and the way she is played. I'm over Laurel, but when I look at Oliver and Felicity, I genuinely don't get why he is with her. What is he getting out of that relationship? It's like Felicity got her fantasy through a meta power, and Oliver is under some kind of spell. She treats him horribly. She treats everyone horribly.

His other relationships on the show were far more compelling. Even when they weren't good relationships, he didn't seem like a passive element

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Question about The Flash:

Maybe I've been in Texas too long, but the cliffhanger didn't strike me as that dire. The man who Barry claimed was a murderous criminal turned around and accused Barry of stalking him and got a restraining order (if I remember correctly).

So I assume that a crime was reported at Barry's apartment. He has a security alert on his phone telling him that someone was there. And Devoe turns up dead on Barry's floor.

How does this look like Barry is in the wrong? If a guy enters my house without permission, I can kill the crap out of him and I'd probably get a high five from the cops that showed up.

I assume that Devoe's wife made some sort of panicked phone call or whatever, but that wasn't shown. Was Barry being framed for kidnapping and murder, or just killing the guy who was in his home uninvited? Not everyone who is found standing over a dead body is going to be treated like a murderer.

I feel like the show wanted us to base our reaction off of what we've seen on other shows/movies and not what we were shown here.


I did enjoy Iris making a passive aggressive comment about Felicity and Oliver highjacking their wedding.

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Supergirl is going on hiatus, replaced by Legends.

http://tvline.com/2018/01/07/supergirl- … 4-renewal/

They say that it's not because of the Kreisberg removal, but it's probably about that. I wonder if the show will get watchable, now that he is gone.

Please be informed that the political, scientific, sociological, economic and legal views expressed in Informant's posts and social media accounts do not reflect any consensus of Sliders.tv.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I wonder how much the 4-part crossover really screwed with everything.  But I sorta agree with the idea of limiting the number of superhero shows that run at any certain time.  I like TF's idea of cycling them throughout the year - you could even drop each show down to 13 episodes and run them one at a time with no breaks on one specific night/time.

I mean, heck, what if they got really crazy and did one show that ran 52 episodes a year called "Arrowverse" - sign each actor to a 20-something episode commitment and do it Justice League Unlimited style.  One episode, it's Barry and Cisco and Diggle.  One episode it's Black Canary and Killer Frost and Supergirl.  One episode it's Green Arrow and White Canary and Martian Manhunter.  Could be cool.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

But you have to wonder if the stars of the shows would sign on for what would essentially be a recurring role on a series that would keep them from seeking any other work. Or they could get free to take other work, and it would be impossible to plan anything.

Please be informed that the political, scientific, sociological, economic and legal views expressed in Informant's posts and social media accounts do not reflect any consensus of Sliders.tv.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

It would take some planning, but a wheel of four shows is doable.  However, I think it could actually give the actors *more* time off than they have now. Four shows filming 13 episodes each is your 52 weeks a year.  That would be an episode cut for Flash, Supergirl and Arrow with the actors only making up part of it in guest appearances on other shows - so they could be looking at a pay cut too.

But, 13 straight weeks of filming for an actor on their series and coming back for another month later in the year to film the big crossover; that’s less work than most of them are doing now and still potentially clocking in 17 episodes on their pay check.