Re: DC Superheroes in Film (Theatrical and Streaming)

I was going to look into the comment more, since it made such little sense. Glad to see that he clarified it himself, so I don't have to do any work. smile

It's weird how the reporting on these geeky movies has gotten so political. The media outlets and the fans behave the same way toward them as the media reports on political issues, and people follow their party lines. It's fascinating. Do geeks take these things too seriously, or do people not take politics seriously enough?

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Re: DC Superheroes in Film (Theatrical and Streaming)

http://www.superherohype.com/news/40372 … e#/slide/1

I'm kinda glad that this was cut, but it's a cool tie-in to Justice League.

Re: DC Superheroes in Film (Theatrical and Streaming)

Yeah, I don't think they need that stuff. It seems like the thing to do because Marvel does it, but even the Marvel stuff is a waste of time more often than not.

I'm still holding out hope for a Special Edition of Wonder Woman that deletes the Ares crap at the end though.

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Re: DC Superheroes in Film (Theatrical and Streaming)

Wonder Woman: Special Edition - Now featuring NO THIRD ACT!

Re: DC Superheroes in Film (Theatrical and Streaming)

The General dude was set up as a villain that Diana could fight. They should have let him be that, while having Doctor Poison work on a weapon that she called Ares. It would have tied the plot together better this way. Actually showing Ares cut the legs out from under the movie.

I demand my Special Edition! smile

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Re: DC Superheroes in Film (Theatrical and Streaming)

http://www.superherohype.com/news/40379 … e#/slide/1

667 (edited by Slider_Quinn21 2017-09-07 08:34:38)

Re: DC Superheroes in Film (Theatrical and Streaming)

Can someone help walk me through what DC is doing here?  They're making:

- Suicide Squad 2 (with Harley Quinn and Jared Leto as Joker)
- A Joker/Harley movie (with Harley Quinn and Jared Leto as Joker)
- A Gotham City Sirens movie (with just Harley Quinn, maybe a Joker?)

and

- A Joker origin movie by Martin Scorsese not related to the DCEU and not played by Jared Leto

Elseworlds are cool and I think studios need to be more creative with these properties, but it's a bit odd to do 4 Joker movies with one out of continuity.

Re: DC Superheroes in Film (Theatrical and Streaming)

I think Warner Bros. has a policy of letting people develop ideas and see where they go, and then they pull the plug when they don't go anywhere. I really don't invest too much thought in the early parts of their process, but I like that they at least keep their minds open to different ideas (and I'm equally thankful that they are willing to delay or cancel projects).

The Joker thing is weird, but with all of the anti-DCEU media coverage, I am just going to ignore the reports of doom until they're more substantial.

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Re: DC Superheroes in Film (Theatrical and Streaming)

I mean it's not even about doom....it's just bizarre.  I think it'd work in-continuity too....just have it be the story of the *real* Joker that Batman faced.  Get Leonardo DiCaprio if that's who you want....show how he became the Joker and how the Batman took him down and he died.

Jared Leto is still the Joker...just a Tim Drake or Jason Todd version that went crazy and became the new Joker.

To spend all this time making a shared universe and then immediately start doing out-of-continuity movies with characters that are in other movies at the same time is going to be super weird.  Why not do a "Heart of Ice" movie about Mr. Freeze?  He's certainly not going to be in the DCEU.  Or a Harvey Dent movie.  Or a Penguin movie.

Batman has tons of cool villains that could be protagonists in their own movie.  The Joker is literally the worst because he's better the less you know about him.

Re: DC Superheroes in Film (Theatrical and Streaming)

It will probably never happen though, so I have no idea how it would work. Marvel has used some characters that 20th Century Fox was using, so it's been done. Yeah, it's weird, but if they can make money with it, I guess they will.

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Re: DC Superheroes in Film (Theatrical and Streaming)

Let's do a Suicide Squad 2 with more Joker/Harley and see if that works before we do a Cinematic Jokerverse.  That's all I'm saying big_smile

Re: DC Superheroes in Film (Theatrical and Streaming)

Oh, I agree. I don't like the idea. I'm just at a point where I can't really react to DCEU news anymore.

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Re: DC Superheroes in Film (Theatrical and Streaming)

I just read an article which stated that Warner Bros. is waiting to see how Justice League does before they make a final decision on whether to make the Flash movie or not.

So this movie that we've all been expecting to be scrapped for some time now is going to be the big tell on how doomed the DCEU is. LOL.

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Re: DC Superheroes in Film (Theatrical and Streaming)

The Flash movie is a bit of a mess and has been.  I don't think it needs to be scrapped, but I do think it needs to be done correctly.  I'm curious to see how Barry comes off as a character in Justice League.  Is he the comic relief that Wally was in the Justice League animated series?  Is he just goofy or kinda dumb?  It's really hard to tell based on the trailers, where he's been the comic relief and socially awkward.

Right now, the focus needs to be on Justice League, then Aquaman (which is setting up to be really cool), the Batman, Green Lantern Corps, and a Wonder Woman sequel.  Suicide Squad 2, Shazam, and the Flash should be the next tier.  I think a Joker/Harley movie, a Deadshot movie, a Nightwing or Batgirl movie, a Man of Steel sequel and some of the other spinoffs need to put on hold until they've had a couple more wins.

Re: DC Superheroes in Film (Theatrical and Streaming)

In other news, I've decided to start avoiding anything related to Justice League until it comes out.  After the BvS marketing spoiled damn-near the entire movie, I like that I know basically nothing about what role Superman plays in this (aside from having some sort of interaction with Alfred).

I might get to see it early again.  If I do, I'll review it ASAP smile

Re: DC Superheroes in Film (Theatrical and Streaming)

Yeah, I stopped watching trailers a while ago. Trailers ruin movies these days, because the marketing people have no idea who they're marketing to, or what these franchises are all about.

I don't think the DCEU has had any real failures, so I don't know that they need more wins before they make plans. I just prefer that they don't set some random release date and rush to put out half-baked movies (like Disney does).

Zachary Levi was just cast in the Shazam movie. That should be interesting. I can see him pulling off the whole "superhero body with a kid's mind" thing.

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Re: DC Superheroes in Film (Theatrical and Streaming)

Well, even if we disagree about misses, I think putting out all 20 or whatever rumored movies is a bad idea.  Consistently doing movies is fine...flooding the market is a bad idea IMHO.

These are fine, and I'm looking forward to all of them (although I'd heard Cyborg has been shelved)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DC_Extend … e#Upcoming

These can come after or should be incorporated in some other manner.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DC_Extend … se#Undated

Re: DC Superheroes in Film (Theatrical and Streaming)

I think we can debate back and forth about how good the movies were, but they've consistently performed well at the box office. The studio has nothing to be ashamed of when it comes to the box office numbers.

What I think Warner/DC is doing is developing ideas and seeing what works. There are a lot of movies in Hollywood that have directors attached and get through the scripting stage, but never actually get made. I think it's fine and even good for them to see where some of these ideas can go, but I don't think that we need all of them. Even Batgirl, as it stands now, should probably be scrapped. Incorporate her into a Batman movie, or even a Harley movie, but I don't know if that project sounds appealing on its own, at least to me. I'd rather see Nightwing. Or a Bat family movie.

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Re: DC Superheroes in Film (Theatrical and Streaming)

It's possible.  An optimist would say that they're trying to find whatever talent they can to make whatever properties they can.  If Lobo works and the Flash doesn't, make Lobo.  If we get Nightwing but no The Batman, that's fine.  Make the best movies they can with the best talent they can.

A pessimist could look at it and wonder if DC is just throwing ideas at the wall and hoping that people get behind them.  That instead of being proactive, they're being reactionary.  "You loved Batman in the trailers? MORE BATMAN!"  "You loved the humor in the Suicide Squad trailer.  MORE HUMOR!"  "You liked Wonder Woman?  MAKE HER THE STAR OF JUSTICE LEAGUE"  Stuff like that.

It's probably somewhere in the middle.  I just don't want DC to oversaturate the market.

Re: DC Superheroes in Film (Theatrical and Streaming)

http://www.superherohype.com/news/40738 … ion-poster

With a 13-month gap between Justice League and Aquaman, 2018 will be a “reset year” for the studio to recalibrate their DC slate with more filmmaker-driven pictures focused on individual characters. They are deviating from their Marvel Studios competition by dumping the corporate mandate to put out particular films in a certain order. Right now the priority is the Flashpoint solo movie with Ezra Miller, Whedon’s Batgirl, Matt Reeves’ solo Batman movie, the Green Lantern Corps film, and two different Joker movies (one with Jared Leto and Margot Robbie’s Harley Quinn, and director Todd Phillips’ unconnected solo Joker movie set in the ’80s).

Sounds like Suicide Squad 2, Cyborg, and any Man of Steel followup are on the backburner.  What's weird is that the SHH article doesn't mention Shazam or the Black Adam movie, which we know are both moving forward.

Re: DC Superheroes in Film (Theatrical and Streaming)

I don't take superherohype.com seriously anymore. Their coverage of the comic book movies has been ridiculously biased, to the point where they fail to report details or fill in gaps with huge leaps in logic. As you said, we know that there are movies and details that aren't being reported in the report that you quoted. Warner Bros/DC has been doing the filmmaker-driven thing all along, and then you get articles about how Justice League is somehow reverting to a failed form because they have dumped the Patty Jenkins style.

It makes no sense.

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Re: DC Superheroes in Film (Theatrical and Streaming)

Well I'm quoting SHH because the WSJ article was paywalled and I don't enough to pay smile

Re: DC Superheroes in Film (Theatrical and Streaming)

Yeah, i hate clicking headline links that lead there. smile

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Re: DC Superheroes in Film (Theatrical and Streaming)

So Justice League is getting torn to shreds by the press, which is to be expected. The thing that makes it hard for me to take the reviews seriously is the fact that they're holding Wonder Woman up as the high point of the franchise, when that movie has more issues than probably any other DC movie.

The critical want it to be a Marvel movie and then slam it when it's not. They criticize Ben Affleck for being to dour as Batman... But that is Batman's role in the group. And some critics seem to be trying to spare Whedons work by picking out bits that sound like he would have added them, and praising those bits.

I may end up agreeing with the critics. If the studio tried to "correct" the franchise, it might suck. However, the reviews that I've seen are using phrasing that doesn't sit well with me.

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Re: DC Superheroes in Film (Theatrical and Streaming)

From what I've read (and I'm trying to stay away from reviews), the characters are great (including a new take on Superman and a great start for Flash/Aquaman/Cyborg) and their interaction really works.....but that the plot and villain are pretty weak.

It really makes me wonder why they went with Steppenwolf.  I know they don't want to start with Darkseid but there's tons of DC villains that would be a stepping stone to Darkseid.  Why someone so obscure?

Re: DC Superheroes in Film (Theatrical and Streaming)

I think they've been trying to explore more obscure characters and storylines, keeping in mind that we have been exposed to a lot of these characters, in one form or another, for decades. Suicide Squad and Wonder Woman did the same thing.

The question is, are these just mainstream film reviewers who don't like the plot, or do comic book fans hate it too?

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Re: DC Superheroes in Film (Theatrical and Streaming)

Well, even the very positive reviews (and they're all tweet-length so no room for nuance) commented that the villain was weak. 

And going away from Luthor/Doomsday/etc is fine for me, but I think they might've gone way to the other side.  What about Mongul?  He's a guy who is less obscure, is a big-enough threat to create the Justice League, and is a smaller threat to Darkseid (so they can bring him in for a sequel to raise the stakes).  And he'd be visually-different enough from Doomsday/Darkseid/Ares/other giant grey villains.

Re: DC Superheroes in Film (Theatrical and Streaming)

Justice League has a Rotten Tomatoes score of 37%! Things are looking up! smile

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Re: DC Superheroes in Film (Theatrical and Streaming)

Well, I thought JUSTICE LEAGUE was really fun and a good movie.

Re: DC Superheroes in Film (Theatrical and Streaming)

Slider_Quinn21 once remarked that he didn't see Marvel movies as 'real' films as much as Saturday morning cartoons in live action. Temporal Flux had the same view of SMALLVILLE. That's how I saw JUSTICE LEAGUE. It was good-natured, cheerful, speedily-paced fun with a focus on putting favourite characters in the same room and the plot either a framework or an afterthought. (It's the main flaw in my writing, too.)

SPOILERS













The plot is just an excuse to justify Wonder Woman shoving Batman for bringing up her dead boyfriend, Batman hinting at a secret weapon to stop Superman which turns out to be Lois, the Flash frantically confessing to Batman that he's never been in a fight, Batman protesting to Superman that he in no way dislikes Clark, Aquaman confessing all his insecurities because he sat on Wonder Woman's lasso of truth, the Flash saving one truck and feeling emasculated by Superman saving an apartment building, Batman saying his superpower is being rich and, my favourite moment -- when Batman pulls his disappearing act on Commissioner Gordon but the Flash lingers awkwardly.

The complaints about the movie being disjointed are, I feel, the result of viewers being overly aware that Zack Snyder left the film before the reshoots and trying to identify which scenes are Whedon's and which are Snyder's and overly fixating on the computer alterations to Henry Cavill's face (which only looked awkward to me in two shots because I wasn't looking for problems). To me, this movie was made like the Season 6 paintball episode of COMMUNITY: the plot was full of holes and gaps and leaps of logic because the story was about the people, not the events..

I liked JUSTICE LEAGUE more than AVENGERS because where Whedon seemed to linger for far too long on getting the gang together for Marvel (despite four movies of setup), JUSTICE LEAGUE makes it happen rapidly.

I had a lot of fun. It's not a film filled with insight and inspiration; it's got way too many characters to service for that due to Cyborg, Flash and Aquaman lacking a solo debut in their own films, but it does a good job with its task list. It's too bad the movie isn't doing so well financially; I suspect that the audience, aware of the production difficulties and change of directors, is understandably not eager to spend crazy cineplex money on what they assume is a mis-matched wreck of two directors who could not be more different. I think it works. The world disagrees.

I feel like Informant.

Re: DC Superheroes in Film (Theatrical and Streaming)

The problem, I think, with shared universes is the same problem that serialized TV series have.  Back in the day, you could watch shows at whatever pace you want whenever it was convenient for you.  To my point, my friend is binge-watching Star Trek: The Next Generation.  Knowing I'm a Trek fan, he would periodically text me and ask me questions or make references to certain episodes.  When I realized that I hadn't seen between 1/3 and 1/2 of the episodes he'd randomly discuss, I realized something: I hadn't seen 1/3 to 1/2 of TNG.

It's funny because I consider it a show that I've "completed", but since it was a show made in the 80s/90s, I "watched the entire show" but didn't watch every episode.  I've watched a patchwork quilt of episodes from all 7 episodes but not every single episode. 

That wouldn't fly today because shows are so dependent on serialization.  I could watch a season 4 episode of TNG and understand just about everything without seeing a single episode before that.  Try doing the same with LOST or even something cheap like Legends of Tomorrow.  I watched an episode of Arrow with my fiancee and didn't even bother trying to explain who any of the characters were - it would've taken too long.

Nowadays, shows *are* like long movies, and we're inclined to "turn them off" and never return if we don't like something.  I hated watching the first season and a half of House of Cards - I found it infuriating to watch two people I despised continually come out on top, eliminating characters I found redeeming, and I couldn't take it anymore.  I stopped watching in the middle of season two, and I haven't returned.  Season 4 could be great, and I literally wouldn't care.  I'm not putting in any more time, and I don't want to be completely lost without having seen the rest of season 2 or season 3.

And I think these cinematic universes have that same effect.  You don't necessarily have to see every DCEU movie to enjoy subsequent films, but it helps.  And if you don't like one or two of them, you might not be willing to watch later ones.  It might end up like a coworker of mine (big comic book fan) who disliked Man of Steel and BvS so much that he skipped Suicide Squad and Wonder Woman (even though I told him he'd like it).  Even though he admitted being intrigued by the tonal change in direction and the trailers, he said he wasn't planning on seeing Justice League.

He'd hit the eject button.

I think this happens with Marvel movies too.  I had trouble convincing a friend of mine to see Civil War because he hadn't seen anything since the Avengers....he was suddenly about a dozen movies behind.  When you suddenly have a movie that's building on movie after movie after movie, people are less likely to jump in midstream.  And they're more likely to judge your new movie by the standards set by the old movie.

Movies become TV become movies.

Re: DC Superheroes in Film (Theatrical and Streaming)

I think the DCEU brand is toxic at this point. MAN OF STEEL was a decent start to a Superman series, but the destruction porn rankled the audience and the box office was mediocre for a cultural icon. WB sought to raise the profile by adding Batman into the sequel -- but as BVS developed, WB then wanted to chase after what Marvel had and what the TRANSFORMERS, JAMES BOND, SPIDER-MAN and other franchises were pursuing in Marvel's wake -- a cinematic universe.

As a result, BVS was now saddled with Wonder Woman and cameos from the Flash, Aquaman and Cyborg and setting up a JUSTICE LEAGUE film that would face an invasion from Apokolips. Zack Snyder and screenwriters Chris Terrio and David Goyer found a way to tell an operatic, epic tale of an angry man against a human god while meeting the shopping list WB had given them. Understandably, such a movie was going to be about three hours long -- and then WB ordered that an hour be cut from the film.

As a result, BVS was an incoherent mess of confusing plotlines that only the director's cut would finally explain. The vast majority of the world saw the often unfathomable cineplex version and viewed Zack Snyder as a director of incomprehensible, alienating films. SUICIDE SQUAD suffered from the same incoherence due to too many cut scenes. So, with a muted reaction to MAN OF STEEL, a severe distaste for BVS and SUICIDE SQUAD and WONDER WOMAN seen as an outlier because Snyder had nearly nothing to do with it, JUSTICE LEAGUE was (unfairly) expected to be more unwatchable confusion from the BVS director made even more incoherent by a different director coming aboard at the tail-end of the process.

The DCEU brand is synonymous with unpleasant, awkwardly edited, confusing filmmaking. Informant insists until he is blue in the face that BATMAN VS. SUPERMAN was a massive success, but WB wouldn't have hired Joss Whedon to alter JUSTICE LEAGUE in mid-production if they'd been satisfied with BVS' finances and critical reception. But the turnaround was too late and the overall perception of JUSTICE LEAGUE (a film I actually really enjoyed and want to see again soon) is that it was WB trying to imitate a Marvel movie and not pulling it off despite having *the* Marvel director doing it.

At this point, AQUAMAN is filmed and WONDER WOMAN was too successful to cancel a sequel. But I think what we're looking at is WB trying to salvage the brand by splitting the DCEU back into separate franchises so as to try to sell SUPERMAN, BATMAN, WONDER WOMAN, FLASH, GREEN LANTERN CORPS, CYBORG, HARLEY & JOKER and JOKER as standalone features rather than DCEU features. Part of this was already in the planning stages, but I expect that if the FLASHPOINT film is ever made, it will break up the shared universe so as to allow each property to pursue its own path and public standing rather than seeing the Snyder brand define every single one of them.

JUSTICE LEAGUE cost too much money and has brought in too little for WB try a sequel any time soon and a movie with one or two superheroes is going to be cheaper than a movie with six. I think the DC Expanded Universe is done. Shared universes cost too much and one failure affects every other project.

Re: DC Superheroes in Film (Theatrical and Streaming)

I wouldn't call BvS a massive success. I would call it a solid success. I would call it impressive for a franchise that is several reboots down the line for both of its main characters. That's a detail that Marvel has only had to deal with when it comes to Spider-Man thus far. And considering that they cut off a lot of potential profits by making the movie less than kid-friendly, I think it did pretty well. I'm not delusional about its success, but I'm also not in the camp that would consider it to be any measure of a failure or disappointment.

I don't disagree with what you say will happen to the franchise in the future, but I disagree with the logic behind your comments. You see the DCEU as a reaction to the Marvel universe. The truth is that DC has been trying to put together a Justice League movie, and a shared universe, for many years. It just didn't come together until after Marvel put theirs out, and there are a bunch of factors going into that situation, from the basic ability for the studios to produce these movies regularly, to the fact that Nolan's movies were never going to be a part of a joint universe and they were out while the mainstream popularity of comic book movies was on the rise. Obviously, the success of Marvel's movies helped to prove the theory that the audience would go for this sort of thing, but saying that Marvel is responsible for the idea, and DC was simply reacting to the MCU is like giving Apple credit for the popularity of cell phones. DC was the one that built this foundation, over the course of decades, yet nobody says that Iron Man was a response to the success of Batman Begins.

You say that DC was trying to catch up to Marvel, forcing the joint universe, and will now break them up as a response to the less than stellar reaction, allowing them to be their own thing. However, this was always the plan. The Justice League movie was never meant to be the grand finale, as it was with the Avengers. It was the big bang that creates the DC universe. It was always intended to launch characters like Aquaman and Cyborg, with the help of more established characters like Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman. DC has always had the idea of allowing filmmakers to take these characters into their own corner of the DC universe and do their own thing, not dependent on the bigger universe. Wonder Woman and Suicide Squad are examples of this. I don't think that it's a reaction to anything. I don't think it's a sign that Justice League didn't work. I think it's just the way things were always going to happen.

The problem is that people are measuring the DCEU against the MCU, and the two are not the same animal.

Joss was brought in to work on Justice League by Snyder, because he had skills that Snyder wanted to use (and he was already working with the studio on the DCEU). It wasn't something that the studio was forcing. Whedon was working under the direction of Snyder, and people seem to be overlooking that detail quite a lot (I've seen articles asking why Whedon wasn't getting directing credit, which is absurd).

(side note: I think there's a chance that Joss is already gone from the DCEU, following what his wife wrote about him. He hasn't spoken much about Justice League in the press, and he made a passive-aggressive jab at the JL villain on Twitter. They insist that he's still working on Batgirl, but I think that could possibly just be a way of avoiding bad publicity right now)


I think Aquaman will stand on its own. I think Shazam will stand on its own. I think most of the single-lead movies will stand on their own, just like Man of Steel and Wonder Woman did. There may or may not be another JL movie in the near future. I think the plan for that probably got thrown when the Snyders (who have been developing this movies) stepped down. We'll have to see what happens, and if they ever decide to come back.



I still haven't seen Justice League. Soon, I hope. I'm avoiding spoilers as much as possible. A lot of people seem to like it... so I'll probably hate it. smile

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Re: DC Superheroes in Film (Theatrical and Streaming)

Informant wrote:

I wouldn't call BvS a massive success. I would call it a solid success. I would call it impressive for a franchise that is several reboots down the line for both of its main characters.

Informant wrote:

I don't disagree with what you say will happen to the franchise in the future, but I disagree with the logic behind your comments.

Informant wrote:

I think Aquaman will stand on its own. I think Shazam will stand on its own. I think most of the single-lead movies will stand on their own, just like Man of Steel and Wonder Woman did. There may or may not be another JL movie in the near future. I think the plan for that probably got thrown when the Snyders (who have been developing this movies) stepped down. We'll have to see what happens, and if they ever decide to come back.

Informant wrote:

I still haven't seen Justice League. Soon, I hope. I'm avoiding spoilers as much as possible. A lot of people seem to like it... so I'll probably hate it. smile

It's scary how I totally agreed with Informant on all of this except the part where he disagreed with me. I can't wait to see what he makes of JUSTICE LEAGUE.

I'll just say I think Zack Snyder is a great director whose work on BVS should have been released to theatres unbutchered.

Re: DC Superheroes in Film (Theatrical and Streaming)

Informant wrote:

I still haven't seen Justice League. Soon, I hope. I'm avoiding spoilers as much as possible. A lot of people seem to like it... so I'll probably hate it. smile

Something just hit me.

What if DC makes so many changes to appease people who didn't like MoS/BvS that they alienate the people who did like it?  I'm sure there are DC fanboys who will love whatever they put out, but Informant is their target demo.  He loves the movie but isn't fanatical about them.  What if, in an effort to get people like me, they offend people like him?

And what if, in that case, they end up losing both of us?

Re: DC Superheroes in Film (Theatrical and Streaming)

That is the question. The solution is to just make good movies and accept that some people (and most critics who don't know comic books at all) will not like them. Trying to make a very specific type of movie appeal to everyone is absurd.

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Re: DC Superheroes in Film (Theatrical and Streaming)

Not surprising, but a shake-up in the DCEU and likely change in direction:

http://deadline.com/2017/12/jon-berg-pr … 202222300/

Re: DC Superheroes in Film (Theatrical and Streaming)

Interesting.

You know what's weird? I can't read an article about the DC movies without getting the same frustration that I get when I read political articles. I would prefer facts without sly little commentary and opinion shaping.

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Re: DC Superheroes in Film (Theatrical and Streaming)

http://www.superherohype.com/news/40956 … t#/slide/1

Interesting thoughts on Man of Steel 2 if Matthew Vaughn had gotten control of it.  Informant would've hated it since it would've been done by a Donner-lover smile

Re: DC Superheroes in Film (Theatrical and Streaming)

I just don't get why people are so dedicated to that one, incredibly dated, incarnation of the character. I don't get the appeal. I don't get why they just want to recreate it over and over again. It is the worst way to do a remake/reboot/whatever.

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Re: DC Superheroes in Film (Theatrical and Streaming)

In listening to the Weekly Planet podcast, they were talking about recasting Affleck should he decide to leave, and they kept talking about using Flashpoint to reboot the character.  So Flash does his Flashpoint, Thomas Wayne becomes Batman in the Flashpoint universe...and then when he fixes it, Flash would track down Bruce...played by another actor.

But.....that doesn't make any sense.  I know it's a time travel story, but no one uses time travel that way.  Butterfly extent in time travel movies never extends to "people look different" (even though it almost certainly would).  And even if it did, Barry couldn't go back far enough where he could impact Bruce's genetics.  Barry would be going back in time to save his mother....whose death would've happened after Bruce was born.

Heck, due to the fact that the timeline has Bruce so much older than Barry, there's a good chance that Barry's mother could've died after Bruce's parents are dead - it shouldn't even affect that (unless they explain that the butterfly effect can, somehow, alter events in the past as well as the future - "a ripple goes in all directions, Barry.").

It doesn't make sense.  If that's going to happen, they should just recast with an actor playing Dick Grayson.  Flash comes back and finds Batman fighting crime.  Barry finds him:

BARRY - "Bruce!  Thank God...."

Batman turns around

DICK - "Bruce....?  Did someone hit you on the head, Barry?  Bruce has been dead for five years."

Dick removes his cowl.  And he's played by....I don't know, Jared Padalecki.

So now Dick Grayson is Batman.  You get that fun twist.  And if Affleck ever wants back in, you time travel and save Batman.  Or Bruce faked is death.  Or whatever.

Re: DC Superheroes in Film (Theatrical and Streaming)

As we know with movies, they don’t always follow the source material.  It may be called Flashpoint, but that doesn’t mean the resolution to the story is re-writing history.  Barry could end up shattering reality as a whole which means anything could happen.

Also, the Flashpoint in the comics wasn’t cut and dried alt history.  When Barry got back, everyone was ten years younger even though he did arrive at the right date.  They’re just now exploring how those ten years got shaved off, who did it and why.

Re: DC Superheroes in Film (Theatrical and Streaming)

True.  And it could easily be a soft reboot of the whole universe if that's what they want to do.  It'd just be weird if they didn't change anything but "now Bruce is Jon Hamm" big_smile

Re: DC Superheroes in Film (Theatrical and Streaming)

I haven't seen Justice League yet, but I have a feeling that they're going to mess this up. No matter what they do, the reviewers will bash them and the audience will be torn. Because all audiences are torn.

There's nothing wrong with the universe they have. It allows them to do all sorts of movies. I hope they don't mess it up, but whatever. Man of Steel will still be the best Superman movie. smile

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Re: DC Superheroes in Film (Theatrical and Streaming)

Well, I don't really think they need to do a full reboot.  It sounds like, from what I've heard (still haven't seen it, either), they sorta rebooted Superman already.  Now it's just a matter of whether or not Affleck is into it.  I'd rather do a Flashpoint switcheroo with Batman than watch Affleck sleepwalk through the role.  If it's in, he's been great.  If his heart isn't into it, either recast with Flashpoint magic or pass the cowl to Dick.

Re: DC Superheroes in Film (Theatrical and Streaming)

What do we think of the Terry McGinnis option? That way Affleck could play a role without having to train heavily or do complicated action stuff. He'd pretty much film on one set the whole time.

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Re: DC Superheroes in Film (Theatrical and Streaming)

Okay I saw it.

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Its early but I think it was well done.  It was fun, and I think they did a pretty good job juggling everything.  Scattershot opinions.

- The mustache thing only bothered me because I was always looking for it.  I don't know if I would've noticed it otherwise.  I still can't believe they did that, but they did an okay job with it.

- It was short, but I liked the slight adjustments to Superman.  He wasn't as jokey as I was led to believe, but he seemed like a Superman without the weight of the world on him.  I wish they'd done the black suit, but the way they did it, the regular suit was better.

- The Marvel model is simply better.  When the Avengers got together, they were four protagonists joining forces.  In this movie, it feels like three protagonists (BvS is a Batman movie) with the three new folks as guest stars.  It was Bart/Victor/AC on Smallville....big-time heroes in Clark's show.  Nothing about the quality of either set of movies, and I'm sure DC would've done the same thing if they'd had more time.

- On that same note, they did feel like they were a part of a team and not individual heroes.  I realize that they're using this movie as a leaping point for Victor/Arthur/Barry, but I can't picture this version of Barry fighting, say, the Reverse Flash.  Again, I understand that that was sort of the point of Barry's character, but why'd he even bother with a suit if he's doing anything more than just nudging and running away?  I almost think Bruce should've made the suit if Barry was going to be this green.

- I know DC already has a lot on slot, but I'd watch an Amazon/Atlantean War movie.  I know part of that is in Flashpoint, but I'm talking a whole movie.

- Atlantis was also more bizarre than I would've thought.  Is the whole Aquaman movie going to be done underwater, and does Mera have to make one of those "talking bubbles" every time they communicate?  Or was that chamber underwater and the rest of Atlantis is open-aired?

- It was cool that we got a pretty good feel for all the heroes.  The stuff with Mera, Barry's dad, and Victor's dad was cool.

- Wonder Woman continued to steal the show.

- I don't know if Affleck was sleep-walking through the role, like I'd heard.  I think he did a fine job.  But he looked weird in several parts of the movie - I don't even know how to describe it - he looked doughy maybe? 

- It felt like a soft reboot at times.  Bruce was almost a completely different character than he was in BvS.  Superman too.

- It's weird that we got a Legion of Doom tease but not a Darkseid tease.  It was cool to see the Green Lantern in the flashback, but a cameo during the Steppenwolf fight would've been better.

- I liked that they had some parademon fight scenes, but the final battle was just the team vs. the villain.  Although I thought the villain was weak.

- All in all, I thought it was done well.  The most fun of the new films and on par with Wonder Woman.

Re: DC Superheroes in Film (Theatrical and Streaming)

I didn't read the spoilers above, but I still want to see the movie. I think it might be too late. I have family in from out of town and my nephews want to see Star Wars, so I probably have a better chance of seeing that than JL.

Argh. smile

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Re: DC Superheroes in Film (Theatrical and Streaming)

DC Extended Universe -- time of death: 9:48 EST. Time to call it a day when the DCEU's staunchest defender can't be bothered to see the latest movie.

**

So, are Slider_Quinn21 and I just out of touch to be liking this film?

710 (edited by Slider_Quinn21 2017-12-29 08:54:38)

Re: DC Superheroes in Film (Theatrical and Streaming)

I've had some time to think about it, and I still don't really understand what people's problems with it were.  I don't even feel like ti felt like two different directors were working on it.  There was some comedy that could've been Whedon, but I went back and watched the first trailer for the movie (which would've definitely been Snyder footage), and it has the "Dressed like a bat.  I dig it." line - which is the same line of humor the film uses throughout.  I think this was going to be lighter either way.

I'm going to listen to the Weekly Planet's review in the next couple days - I already know that one of them hated it - to try and get some perspective on what they think went wrong.  But I feel like I'm not going to change my mind.

Few more notes:

1. Even though it doesn't feel choppy or two spliced-together movies, I do feel like a TON of stuff was cut out.  If you watch the first trailer, a lot of it isn't in the final film.

2. I know it's hard to judge this movie without comparing it to the previous ones - but on it's own merit, I think it's well done and fun.  I think if BvS had been this way, I think it would've been fine.  And BvS being so gloomy does help sell this universe's message.  I didn't love the road to get here, but now that we're here, I think it's set up pretty nicely.

3. Bruce's age and lack of powers is a major point in this movie - I wonder if they could sell Affleck on a mentor role?  They already alluded to a Hall of Justice.  What if Bruce became Oracle?  If all his scenes are on one set and most of them are behind a computer monitor or voiceover, would he be more likely to stick around?

4. Are we SURE that there's still Bat-Family around?  I get that Bruce might not call up Dick or Barbara when he's throwing a fit in BvS, but the world is in complete danger and he doesn't even mention them.  Not in passing, not to warn them...nothing.  Dick is literally a son to him in some cases, and he literally goes on a suicide mission in this movie.  At this point, I think it's counterproductive to have any of the Bat-Family in these movies.  There was a Robin, and he's dead.

5. I thought it was really weird that there were two no-name criminals at the start of the movie (one that Batman fights and one that Wonder Woman fights).  There are hundreds of actual DC villains that they could've used that will *never* be the main villain in any film.  I mean, make them Hush or Black Mask or someone.  Especially Batman villains - there should be a million of them, and they'd all be established by now.

6. Man, they are fast and loose with their superhero identities in this one.  I know we want them to all be friends, but they are *always* referring to themselves by their first names.  Bruce outs himself as Batman to Aquaman's village, Lois outs Clark in front of several Metropolis PD, and they call Barry by his first name when in the suit.  I don't know if Wonder Woman or Flash or Cyborg are even mentioned by name in this (or any other) film, but we know that Bruce and Clark want their identities to be a secret.  I'm not sure how they're going to resurrect Clark at the same time they resurrected Superman for people not to notice, but Clark is wearing the glasses and runs to change into the suit in the shadows at the end.  I guess they're trusting that none of those cops will spill the beans?  That the villagers are too remote to let anyone know that Bruce is Batman?

Re: DC Superheroes in Film (Theatrical and Streaming)

No! I really, really want to see it and love it (though I have my concerns with it). It isn't a decision to not see it. It's just that I have the entire family in town, a book about to be published, an audiobook in production, work on a movie coming up, and I've spent the past month trying to get all of these plans in order.

Timing, not decision!


That said, I just rewatching Man of Steel and Wonder Woman with my nephews. Man of Steel is still great. Wonder Woman still falls apart directly after a really solid emotional climax, which is immediately rendered useless to the movie.

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Re: DC Superheroes in Film (Theatrical and Streaming)

Informant wrote:

No! I really, really want to see it and love it (though I have my concerns with it). It isn't a decision to not see it. It's just that I have the entire family in town, a book about to be published, an audiobook in production, work on a movie coming up, and I've spent the past month trying to get all of these plans in order.

Timing, not decision!

Note on this: I saw it yesterday in the middle of the day on a weekday, and there were a couple dozen people in there.  I know that doesn't sound like a lot, but the movie has been out over a month.  I 100% expected it to be completely empty.

Re: DC Superheroes in Film (Theatrical and Streaming)

That is pretty interesting. Especially when all of the reports are talking about the big box office drop.

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Re: DC Superheroes in Film (Theatrical and Streaming)

Well, it was a $4 matinee so maybe people were taking advantage of that.  Still Christmas vacation - there were some kids.

It was still top 5 as of last week, but I think the drop-off is starting.  The main problem is that the budget was so bloated (mostly due to reshoots) that it's going to be hard to make enough money on this.  Word of mouth might help (it being more kid-friendly than BvS helps), but it's such a steep cliff to climb starting so far behind.

I wouldn't be surprised if we didn't see another Justice League for a while.  I'd love to do a couple team-ups.  Maybe Flash and Superman.  Maybe Batman and Diana in some sort of mystery film.  Maybe a literal fish out of water story with Aquaman and Green Lantern?  But they should try and do smaller stories with less flaming wreckage.  In an inconsistent cinematic universe, that's the most consistent thing about it and it needs to change smile

Re: DC Superheroes in Film (Theatrical and Streaming)

I listened to the Weekly Planet review.  Mason hated it but James said he had a lot of fun.  Even after all their breakdowns, I still agree with James.  It isn't a great movie, but it's a lot of fun.  Informant might not like this, but there's a Marvel quality to it.  You can tear apart something like Civil War, but at the end of the day, if you have fun...you don't want to. 

A lot of Mason's complaints were about the weird tonal shifts of the movies.  His complaints about Justice League were really complaints about the whole DCEU - which I think is fair in some ways and unfair to the movie itself.  I think some will disagree, but I think Justice League wants us to remember BvS happening differently that it did.  And once you accept that, the ride is a lot of fun and the universe makes more sense.

Re: DC Superheroes in Film (Theatrical and Streaming)

Apparently, the DC Extended Universe is so bereft of hope, so utterly beyond saving that Informant would allow "timing" to prevent him from seeing the JUSTICE LEAGUE film. It's time to face facts. The DCEU is done when a man who has filled page after page with ranting about BATMAN VS. SUPERMAN's successes and financial excellence can't find the time to see JUSTICE LEAGUE and while I applaud Informant putting a brave face on the situation, it's clear that the film franchise died the day Informant watched JUSTICE LEAGUE pass out of theatres with an indifferent wave having never seen a single frame of the movie within one of its cineplex screenings. I take no pleasure in observing this death knell, but we can't live pretending the world is something that it isn't.

**

Steppenwolf is a terrible villain. I don't see that being a problem, however, because as edited and structured, JUSTICE LEAGUE doesn't need him to be a great villain or to have meaningful motivations or philosophies. He just needs to be there so Superman can punch him. He is precisely what the movie needs, but absolutely no more and while it's a flaw, I don't feel it's a problem. It's like Snoke in THE LAST JEDI; the movie's not about the villain, you don't need to know all that much, it doesn't matter.

As for the retconning to claim Superman was more liked than he was -- I see some of it and I also don't. Superman failed to save the Senate and failed to save the village, so the idea that he was holding back the legions of Darkseid seems unlikely to me. However, BVS does enough to show that the average person feels Superman is "all some people have," as Lois said, so I can buy a mourning and a sense of loss and revering children with cell phone footage making Superman seem more meaningful without the darker elements BVS emphasized.

Ben Affleck is significantly heavier in JUSTICE LEAGUE than he was in BATMAN VS SUPERMAN, but it isn't fat. It's muscle. He's gotten even bigger since his debut.

There are a lot of oddities in the film that would have been there regardless of the directorial situation. It's not explained where the Flash got his suit; I assume he used his powers to mine and/or steal anything he needed to build it.

The secret identities were treated with total disregard in this film and I'm not sure what to say about it. I got the sense that Zach Snyder was deeply disinterested in the secret identity aspect of Superman given how Lois is in on the secret pretty quickly in MAN OF STEEL. Personally, seeing Bruce approaching Arthur in the village and Lois yell for Clark in Metropolis added a lot of tension for me: the situation is so desperate that secret identities are no longer worth the time.

I thought the chemistry between all six characters was fantastic, especially the way Henry Cavill haunted the whole film despite his absence. Bruce saying that Superman was the most human of them all because he lived like an ordinary guy was beautiful. Barry's awkward crush on Diana was very sweet, particularly his awestruck first meeting ("Hi, Barry, I'm Diana." "Hi, Barry, I'm Diana, no, that's wrong."). Barry falling face-first into Diana's breasts is a very Joss Whedon sort of moment.

**

My feeling as to why the movie is turning out to be such a bomb critically and financially: first, the release date should have been pushed back once Snyder left the film if only to finish some of the special effects rather than see them released as they were. Second, and this ties into the first point, the effects on Superman's face simply weren't finished. If WB had successfully kept a lid on Cavill's mustache, I don't think the audience would've been looking for it, but because it was in the press, the audience was looking for it and it couldn't withstand scrutiny. Third, from a PR standpoint, Whedon shouldn't have directed the reshoots as a director; he should've just been a producer -- because the whole world knows Zack Snyder and Joss Whedon have fundamentally adversarial styles and is looking for mismatches whether they're there or not. I would have hired Greg Beeman or Adam Kane (HEROES and directors who use lots of speedramping) to execute Whedon's marching orders.

But because WB did what they did, the result is that people are looking for all the seams and joins and staples rather than sitting back and appreciating the movie, and if you look for flaws, you'll find them because all movies have them.

Re: DC Superheroes in Film (Theatrical and Streaming)

https://screenrant.com/justice-league-r … rner-bros/

Take it with a grain of salt, but this is potentially one reason why they didn't move the release date back.

Re: DC Superheroes in Film (Theatrical and Streaming)

Slider_Quinn21 wrote:

https://screenrant.com/justice-league-r … rner-bros/

Take it with a grain of salt, but this is potentially one reason why they didn't move the release date back.

It would fit with my impression of the Warner execs. I really think they are perplexed at why super-heroes sell.  They are fumbling in the dark with this; and they’ve either been getting bad advice or not giving enough faith to the good advice.  But that’s the problem - they can’t tell the difference between the two because they’re out of their depth.

Love him or hate him, Kevin Feige is an actual Marvel Comics fan.  He reads the comics.  A quote from this article sums it up:

https://www.ft.com/content/b2db3a84-5ec … 144feabdc0

Mr Feige’s distinctive commercial trait is to insist Marvel movies do not deviate from the source material: the comics. In a Bloomberg Businessweek interview this year he recalled, as a producer on the X-Men movies, hearing executives agonising about how to develop a particular scene or character. “I’d be sitting there reading the comics going, ‘Look at this. Just do this. This is incredible.’”

Snyder understands this too; he proved it with 300 and Watchmen. But with the DCEU, he’s been stitching together comic scenes like Frankenstein (whether it be the Batman Superman fight lifted from Dark Knight Returns or the finale of Man of Steel lifted from the death-free Action Comics Annual 11 by Geoff Johns).  It just doesn’t work if a movie is formulated on the premise of connecting cool scenes together; and I really think that’s what Snyder has been focused on and what Warner has listened to.

Re: DC Superheroes in Film (Theatrical and Streaming)

TemporalFlux wrote:

or the finale of Man of Steel lifted from the death-free Action Comics Annual 11 by Geoff Johns.

I've never heard this comparison before and googling it didn't give me much.  What happened in the comic version?

Re: DC Superheroes in Film (Theatrical and Streaming)

One thing about DC - they put out amazing trailers.  Since seeing Justice League, I've watched a couple of their trailers multiple times.  The Suicide Squad's trailer was so good that it, for some, ended up ruining the film (because the trailer folks were asked to edit the final film).  And I still watch the final Man of Steel to this day.

I can't say the same for any of the Marvel/X-Men/other superhero films.