God the last episode was horrible. The British MOL are simply awful. Have the writers SEEN this series before?
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God the last episode was horrible. The British MOL are simply awful. Have the writers SEEN this series before?
Sorta funny Walking Dead reference in this week's episode. Dean has a barbed-wire-covered baseball bat, and he says "Dad loved this thing." John Winchester (Jeffrey Dean Morgan, obviously) is now on TWD and famously uses a barbed-wire-covered bat.
Secondary weird note - is it weird to anyone else that the Impala isn't more protected? I'd think it'd be warded like crazy. There's only a ward in the trunk, right?
Question - if a werewolf can be "cured" - why can't Castiel do that?
He wasn't contracted for that episode.
I just feel like if curing was even somewhat possible, it would've been mentioned before. And would be an absolute gamechanger.
Apparently, it isn't a sure thing. Most people would die.
I wonder if she survived because she is a potential angel vessel. Do they have some extra resilience?
Maybe. It's really weird that Castiel wasn't in the episode. It would've been nice to have some heavenly insight - not to mention his connection to Claire.
I'm good with Castiel and Crowley appearing less, and people like Claire appearing more.
I agree with that. This just seemed like a natural place for him to show up, and it was odd that he didn't.
As indicated in the Arrowverse thread, Supernatural stays on Thursday.
In other news, two-part finale tonight. Or two-episode finale. I don't know if they're connected or not.
Which means Supernatural vs Gotham.
Sigh. It's been a while since I had a real conflict! I will probably save Gotham for later, since there isn't a whole night of interesting programming on FOX there. Supernatural and Arrow work well together, though I'd swap timeslots if I were in charge. Supernatural is a darker show... Scooby-Doo episode notwithstanding.
Wow, that's quite the finale.
Do we think (SPOILERS) and (SPOILERS) are going to stay (SPOILERS)? And were you upset that (SPOILERS) so so unceremoniously (SPOILERS)? I also liked the surprise (SPOILERS) of (SPOILERS) in the (SPOILERS)?
In all seriousness, I thought it was really thrilling. And in the penultimate one, I was shocked at how emotional Dean's talk with Mary was.
Still processing my thoughts since I just watched the final two episodes. Here's where I am so far...
Hour one -
I think they could have focused on the MoL story alone and made this the season finale. Having hunters assemble with Sam taking the leadership role was cool. Dean had some powerful scenes too. Overall, I think the Men of Letters story was strong and worked, but they need to learn the method by which Kripke worked within his budget. They try to go too big and fancy sometimes, like with the modern MoL base, and it ends up looking like a 1990's Sci-fi Channel set.
Hour two -
Honestly, I could do without this whole arc. Lucifer shouldn't have come back. The baby story has been done already. The alternate world looked cheesy.
That said, the setup is really interesting. There is potential for a soft reboot now, since so many crutch characters are gone. I'm surprised that Rowena was killed off camera, but it worked.
I want these deaths to stick, but there were so many of them that it's all begging to be reset. Ideally, next season would have Sam and Dean find a way to save Mary, and then the show would move on. However, I worry that everything that happened in this episode will be a waste of time.
My brother suggested that Mary will interact with alternate versions of those dead characters next season, but I really hope that (like Hell and Purgatory) we don't spend very long in the alternate universe. Hell, I'd rather see Mary end up on the Flash than spend multiple episodes in that world.
Depending on how this goes, the episode was either a huge step forward, or a big waste of time.
Overall, it felt unpolished in parts. Some directing decisions were questionable. Not horrible, but this arc wasn't my favorite.
I was surprised about Rowena, if only because I thought she deserved an on-screen death. I don't know if it was a scheduling issue or some sort of problem with the actress, but she'd become an important-enough character that it was a bit surprising that she was burned to a crisp off screen (the overkill of her death seemed a bit like the Arturo death in that way).
But if Crowley is dead, there's really no reason to bring her back either.
I do hope that some of these deaths stick, although I also fear that they're gonna bring all of them back. I really liked Crowley's death. He's always been a "bad" character that's usually leaned good, and I'm glad he finally realized that. He's been an antagonist, but he's done about as much good as Castiel (and is just as likely to help, it seems). To have him sacrifice himself to trap Lucifer is a pretty cool thing.
Cass' death was way too casual to stick. I wouldn't have minded if the baby had been born (as a baby) and Castiel had left the show to take care of him. I know they want to do the nephilim storyline, but that could've been something that was in the background. If this is how Castiel dies, it was almost as unceremonious as Rowena's death. And I'd leave Mary and Lucifer trapped in that other world, never to appear again. She gets to be with Bobby, living kickass lives as full-time hunters. I think that's, in a real weird way, a happy ending for her.
Leaving Mary wouldn't make sense to me. I don't see how Sam or Dean would ever stop looking for a way to get her back, just like they've done for each other a bunch of times. She's family... And not Adam.
On top of that I don't get why they would bring her back, set her up, and then just get rid of her. She is a solid character who opens a lot of doors.
Well, here's my thinking.
Getting her back risks getting Lucifer back. I know she's family, but that's a huge risk bringing her back. And, like I said, I feel like it's almost a happy ending for her. She never really belonged, and she only felt comfortable hunting. Now that's all she'll get to do. Bobby seemed like he was at peace in that world (he never asks to come back with them), and I think she'd be the same way. I agree that she'll probably come back (with Lucifer), and they probably needed a better goodbye if they were going to do things that way (where she chooses to go). But if this is how it ends, it's probably the happiest of all the endings we got in that episode.
The happiest, maybe. If only because she is still alive. However, she is with Lucifer. How long does she last there?
I do wonder who exists and how, in that other world. Michael and Lucifer needed Sam and Dean in order to go through with their big apocalypse. So, what would their roles be on that other world? Still, I'm not sure that I want to be there long enough to find out.
I do think that Sam and Dean need to work endlessly to get Mary back though. The risk is no greater than when Sam was in the cage. It would be weird if they gave up. However, it doesn't necessarily need to happen in the premiere, since Samantha Smith isn't one of the leads.
Is it just me or did all these season-long plotlines -- Men of Letters, Lucifer's spawn, Mary's detachment -- just get resolved in a very rushed, anti-climactic way? There was no build-up, no rising action. A lot of troubling, random events followed by the hunters storming the Men of Letters installation and blowing it up. Tremendously rushed, anti-climactic deaths for two characters, one of whom didn't even appear onscreen. And before there was any time to absorb that, the nephilim is born and we only glimpse it before the season ends. This didn't feel like a season finale.
It did feel like there were two factions in the writers room - the Men of Letters team and the Nephilim team - each that wrote out full conclusions...and then the show decided to cut both in half and air them both. It did feel like different seasons.
Yeah, I think that the Men of Letters storyline felt more developed, and that resolution felt more fulfilling. The nephilim story felt half-baked and kinda useless from the start. The kid is the President's son, genetically speaking, but... does that matter? Why? It just seems like a story that's there because they needed something "supernatural" and this was just them going through the motions of doing that.
I do hope that he makes for a good villain. Maybe they can make him interesting by not making him eeeeevil from the start. Maybe we (and Sam and Dean) actually like him at first, but he slowly starts to make choices that turn out badly and becomes a threat. Possibly not even on purpose.
Seems like at least one death will stick. Mark Sheppard will not be returning as a series regular next season.
I like the actor, but this is long overdue. I am pretty sure that you could edit out 90% of his scenes without losing any plot over the past few years.
Misha Collins has suggested that Castiel has a future, but we don't know if that means that he will be a regular. Personally, I'd rather see Mary, Jodi or Claire promoted to series regular.
Sheppard's sticking makes the most sense. He had the most closure.
Kinda makes you wonder why they didn't just kill him a couple of weeks ago though.
Well, he had to go out with a win. I know you didn't love his character, but I thought he had pretty good chemistry with the rest of the cast. His character didn't hold up to much scrutiny (he never seemed like the King of Hell), but if you just took him at face value, he was fun.
So apparently there is a group of fans that believes that the upcoming spinoff, Wayward Sisters, is a ripoff of an idea that was created and developed by the fans.
I got into a conversation with a couple of these people, and as best I can figure, the facts are these:
1. In season 9, Supernatural introduced Alex. She's a girl who was victimized by vampires, and she was ultimately sent to live with Jody. Season 9 also introduced Donna Hanscum, another female sheriff who quickly befriended Jody.
2. Season 10 reintroduced Claire, who had been orphaned after Castiel took her father's body as his vessel and her mother disappeared (and later died). Ultimately, Claire was sent to live with Jody. As she left, she asked, "This is some sort of halfway house for wayward girls?"
3. The fans liked the idea of these characters interacting, so they came up with the idea of having these characters interact and have stories of their own. They called this Wayward Daughters. The actresses involved supported the idea and it became a whole thing.
4. Season 11, episode 12, "Don't You Forget About Me" was all about Jody, Claire and Alex. It was a very popular episode, which had many, many people calling for a spinoff (myself included)
5. Recently, the Supernatural producers announced that they would be creating a backdoor pilot for a series called Wayward Sisters, which follows this group (along with the granddaughter of a character that I won't spoil). The writers said that they'd been toying with the idea ever since they wrote Claire back onto the show, but the timing wasn't right until this season.
6. Fanrage! They stole the idea that the fans created! How dare they take credit for this?!!?!?
Okay, so... where to begin?
I will start in season 8, with Krissy Chambers. She is a girl who was orphaned after her hunter father was killed. Krissy goes to live in a house for wayward supernaturally orphaned kids. So, the idea was on the show long before the fans were pushing for Wayward Daughters. (also, I want Krissy on this new series!)
Next, the writers put Alex and Claire with Jody, not the fans. This isn't a case of the fans creating an idea, it's a case of them... watching the show and not being able to understand the line between their own thoughts and what's happening on the screen? The writers clearly had the idea for stories involving this group of characters, which is why they put them together in the first place.
I find it absolutely hilarious and outrageous that fans are claiming that this was their idea, to the point of accusing the writers of ripping it off. Is this some sort of mental illness?
I love Supernatural, but I've never liked the fandom. I have always hated the crazy fangirls, and I've never forgiven them for causing Jo and Ellen to be written off of the show. They claim to want more female representation on the show, but they've always thrown tantrums every time a woman got anywhere near a Winchester brother... unless the character was gay or maternal in some way that made her non-threatening to the fangirl delusion that the Winchesters would fall in love with them.
This claim that the writers stole a fan idea makes me even more mad. Maybe it's the writer in me, but it's infuriating.
What do the fans want? A "Developed by the fans of supernatural?" credit? Do they want to be hired as writers? What's the plan?
In general, I think the plan for Supernatural fangirls has always been to be as whiny and bitchy as humanly possible.
Maybe they want female representation that's not just a love interest. I've heard that women are capable of other things.
We have tried different types of female characters on the show. Ellen and Jo were more like a mother and sister to them in season two, for example. But the fangirls screamed until they were written off. And the show is going into season 13, and we've had one long-term relationship on the show (which the fangirls rejected), with another multi-episode relationship that was over before we even saw how it played out. I don't think the show can be accused of reducing women to housewife cliches.
That said, there was nothing wrong with the Lisa character. They should have kept her around and allowed Dean to hold onto the maturity that his season 6 arc brought to his character.
The show has unfortunately devolved into a soap. Out of ideas. Season was pretty bad arc-wise. Now they're saying there's NO end in sight, and old characters will return, I guess from the dark universe, IDK.
I am a little uneasy with what I've heard about the new season. I wish the alternate reality would be resolved quickly and not get much focus. I wish there was no more Heaven/Hell/angel/demon stuff...
But then again, the show has surprised me in the past. Maybe this won't suck, but last year's arcs could have been better.
yep tue after Gilmore girls as he was formerly from gg, then ironically after smallville the following year as the other brother was from year 1 of smallville, then followed smallville from thur to fri, then back to thur, to wed, to thur again always at 9pm till midpoint last season
I actually liked the premiere more than I thought I would. Jack isn't as bad as I expected. I like the vagueness of the character. He could go either way. At times he seems like Castiel, and at other times it seems like he could blow the world up with his brain. I'm curious to see how long they walk this line with him, and which side he ends up on.
Still not a big fan of the alternate universe though.
Yeah, I thought it was pretty good. Although I'm still completely confused on what shape Heaven is in. Every year they seem to lose whoever's in charge. This week, the lead female angel acted way more like a demon than an angel, and that's what I thought she was until the second she died. I thought the angels and demons were working together.
You've said this for a while, but they all need to be retired. Heaven and Hell are too mangled by this point.
I really didn't expect tonight's Supernatural to work for me. Oddly, it did. I still think that Jack is a strong addition to the show, and seeing the angels take action, rather than stand around in suits and talking a bunch, actually didn't annoy me. They reminded me of the angels from season 5.
Still not a huge fan of the Supernatural multiverse, but it wasn't too bad today.
The one beat that was weird was when Patience's father told her not to come back. I expected it, because I knew that she is going to join Jody's team, but it didn't seem natural to me. Even when he said it, the delivery struck me more like "Once you get into that life, there's no going back" when it seemed to be scripted more like a "If you leave this house, don't bother coming back."
I'm probably a week behind, but it's been a good season so far.
Wayward Sisters -
Sam and Dean were trapped in Land of the Lost!
Overall, I liked the episode and the setup for the new series. I think it's smart to have a group of characters with different skills, so they can rotate from week to week. Everyone worked really well together. Usually, there's not a lot to say about the things that work in a story, while the down sides are a bit easier to discuss. So don't read the following as a negative review of the episode. I liked it. With that in mind...
I'm still not a huge fan of the Supernatural multiverse, but it worked for this story. I do kinda miss the Kripke era, when they would keep monsters in shadows a lot of the time, or give them human faces. I don't think we needed to see the giant monster at all. Letting the audience fill in blanks with their imagination works really well in a lot of stories, and I think the show is losing sight of that more and more each season.
I don't know if it's just my local station's broadcasting, or what, but the audio for Supernatural has sounded weird lately. Like they have bad mics or something. Combined with unnecessary background music in some scenes, or "cheap" background music in other scenes, the series can sometimes feel like a lower quality production than it is. Some of the directing choices have been weird too (like that weird handheld camera zoom/unzoom thing that people use when they want to look gritty, but it usually just looks lame).
I don't know who left the show or who joined the show behind the scenes over the years, but it seems like corners are being cut to save money, while money is being spent unnecessarily in other places (big giant CG monster that we didn't need to see). Some of this could be the broadcast quality where I am, but some of it is definitely on the production side. They should tighten that up.
What the heck is up with the writers' obsession with Rowena?
I honestly don't know. The season was fine without her, and I don't see a huge need for her. Ruth Connell has said that she always knew that it wasn't going to stick, so this was the plan all along. I just don't get why. Why kill her? Why bring her back? Even in this episode, I think they could have done without her.
That said, the episode wasn't horrible. The story of the two witches trying to revive their mother could have been a fun episode on its own.
I'm super tired of the demon lair, with the throne room and the dungeons and all that. It is a set that's dedicated entirely to useless dialogue. I wish that Lucifer really was dead, but we know he's not. I think that at this point, the writers need to make death mean something again. Maybe introduce a third tablet: the tablet of life and death. Explain that it went missing about ten or fifteen years ago, and it's throwing off the balance of the world by allowing the dead to come back. Maybe a reaper went nuts and stole it. Then you have three tablets that can solve all of the show's major problems at this point.
Well, that's the thing. There are tons of cool characters that could've been brought back if they really wanted (going back to Jo and Ellen). And yet Rowena comes back time and again. A super-powerful witch is a cool anti-hero, but couldn't they just introduce someone new?
I think that the problem with a character like that in general is that they become an easy answer for everything. A puff of smoke and some mumbled latin, and the need for any significant plot resolution flies out the window. This was a problem on Buffy too. Eventually, Willow was more powerful than Buffy.
For f*** sake, how many dead characters have they brought back *this season*??? This would have been a great time to bring Michael/Adam back.
And we have another throne room.
They really need to do away with some of their storytelling safe zones on this show. The arc/mythology episodes are 90% filler scenes and usually just repeated stuff that we've seen a million times before.
I will be happy when Jack and Mary get back, but after that, I want some stand alone episodes, so I can remember why I watch this show.
For f*** sake, how many dead characters have they brought back *this season*??? This would have been a great time to bring Michael/Adam back
I was shocked that it was Gabriel. And, honestly, pissed.
Gabriel's death scene might be one of the best scenes the show's ever done. It's wonderfully done, wonderfully acted, and it has a ton of real weight to it. It was a huge win for Lucifer, but it was also what helped the boys come up with the plan to put him back in the cage. It's one of the most important scenes in the show, and I think it's a lot about the core of what the show is.
I think he was a great character, but he should've stayed dead. His death should mean something. Like John's has.
Michael would've made sense. Even a miracle resurrection by Raphael would've been better. I hate this.
Yeah, I know that a lot of fans online are really psyched, but I'm not there. It didn't make sense. It didn't seem necessary. And after Castiel, Ketch and Rowena coming back, I'm just not happy with some of the decisions being made.
I like Jack. I even kinda like having Mary back. I still think that the stand-alone episodes are great and prove that the show isn't past its expiration date. But things need to change.
I'll admit, for a split second, I thought of Info and how his eyes were widening. Then saw my boy Richard Speight, Jr., and thought of Info screaming bloody murder! Ha ha ha!
I don't think that Jake Abel is on the outs with production, because he regularly appears at the Creation conventions. If he were, they'd probably block him from those.
I think it's strange, how the Supernatural team have handled Adam. They act as though he is a mistake that should never be referenced again (like the Leviathans), but the fans have never shared this view of the character. To the home audience, it's always been baffling that such family-driven characters would forget their own brother, who also represents a massive failure for them. The characters don't even seem to remember him (when they're alive), which could make for a great setup for a story, but the time for that story was years ago.
Canonically, where is Adam/Michael? Is he in a separate part of Lucifer's cage? When we saw the cage a couple of seasons ago, Lucifer was alone. Was he moved to that separate cage?
And since this season seems to imply that Michael is evil, was our version of Michael evil too? He never came across that way to me.