Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Informant wrote:

No, I just literally see nothing remotely homophobic in his joke. I have seen a lot of different shipper fandoms over the years, both hetero and gay, and I have seen many actors laugh at the thought of many of those couplings, insisting that they're just friends, or they're... Y'know... Brothers. He didn't say anything homophobic (and isn't likely to, considering his history), and didn't even reference the gay element in his joke. If anything, he was treating them the same way he would treat any highly unlikely coupling. And it's probably also likely that the cast had been laughing at the shippers on set for a while prior to that, because that's what actors tend to do when the shippers pop up. Do you think Jensen Ackles and Misha Collins are taking their shippers seriously?


If the shippers want to he offended by the fact that he didn't take them seriously... Okay. I guess. But if they're claiming that he is doing so because he's homophobic... Honestly, I find that ridiculous.


Let me ask you a question. How do you think the audience would react to the pairing of Curtis and Dinah?

I think it's one thing for Ackles and Collins to blow off Destiel given that for three seasons, Dean Winchester had been established as a ladies man who gets nervous in the face of homoeroticism. I'm not sure Castiel even has much of a sexuality. I am pleased for the Destiel ship, however, because I've noticed that whenever my niece is upset or distraught, casual references to Castiel as "Dean's boyfriend" and Dean as "the love of Castiel's life" immediately calm her down.

In the case of SUPERGIRL, Kara's sexuality was a relatively blank slate with her schoolgirl crush on Jimmy that was immediately dropped with Season 2 and her reluctance and distance with Mon-El throughout most of Season 2. There was a lot of chemistry between Melissa Benoist and Katie McGrath that could have potentially gone romantic or not, certainly moreso than with the female-male pairings the show selected instead. There was nothing to indicate Kara couldn't or wouldn't be attracted to women as well as men.

My niece was in favour of it but understood that the show might not and probably wouldn't go there; at the end of the day, SUPERGIRL is a copyright owned by a fundamentally conservative corporation that took nearly eight decades to let Wonder Woman be bisexual.

There was nothing to indicate that Kara and Lena *couldn't* be bisexual -- until Jeremy Jordan led the cast in *laughing* at the notion, effectively mocking the idea that two powerful, equally matched women in lead roles on a television series could be attracted to each other, laughing at the idea Supergirl could ever have a sexual orientation outside of what was heteronormative. It was very hurtful for the LGBTQ segment of the audience to see that and my niece hasn't gone near SUPERGIRL since.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Sorry, but no. Your niece is going to have to realize that whatever couple she ships, of whichever orientation they may or may not be, neither the crew nor the actors are obligated to take that pairing as seriously as the obsessive fans. It is common for the actors to joke around about these things, and to label it as homophobic simply because it involves a same sex couple in this particular situation is absurd.

How long have gay people fought to be treated the same as straight people? Well, here you go. This is what that means. And if that is too offensive, then the answer is to simply seek shelter away from the rest of the world. Gay people aren't sickly, delicate little flowers, and I refuse to concede that they should be treated as such.

I get that fans really get into their shipper-ness. We all know that I can get obsessive about elements of different stories too. But failure to join that obsession cannot be equated with some sort of hateful inolerance. And expecting the cast to take any of this as seriously as the shippers themselves is absurd. They have an entirely different perspective on it, and they're allowed to make jokes about how fans react, especially when those fans photoshop images that put those actors' faces and bodies into romantic or sexual situations that they never took part in.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Thank you for your thoughts.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

smile

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I just watched the Star Trek TNG 30th Anniversary panel, with most of the cast members, and Patrick Stewart said something pretty relevant to our conversation. He was talking about how fans react to the show, and connect with things that become really meaningful and personal for them, and he said that when those fans ask him questions about those things, he worries that they will walk away disappointed in the actors because they don't share that specific connection. They have an entirely different relationship and connection to that show, and he worries that the fans will be let down by that, or by the fact that he sometimes can't remember what they're talking about.

I think he articulated what I was trying to say (perhaps better than I did). The show means a lot to them and it was a huge part of their lives, and they love that fans connect to different things, but they simply cannot relate to the show on the same level. It represents something entirely different to them, and there is a chance that fans will be let down, or even insulted by that, but it's unavoidable.


Also, Gates McFadden and Marina Sirtis totally almost got into a fight. smile

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Are the Arrow writers making people want Rene, Curtis and Dinah to die horrible bloody deaths on purpose, or do they think that this is an interesting story where both sides are right and wrong at the same time? Because most of the reaction I've seen is just calling for those three characters to get gone.

I really don't get how Laurel stole that money. Wasn't she injured and in the cabin since before it was stolen?

The show is remarkably still not as bad as those two seasons that never happened, but it is still kind of a mess.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I think they're trying to do a Civil War situation, but like that, this could all be fixed pretty quickly if everyone gets their head out of their asses.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

It has the same problems as Civil War. The conflict is just there because the writers want conflict, whether or not it makes sense. Then they get into fights, shooting real weapons at each other, and then act super surprised when someone gets hurt.  It'd be great if it were done well, but it just hasn't, and it's annoying.

I'm not sure how Dinah and Curtis can act appalled by what Oliver did to Rene. Rene was literally shooting at the others, and those weren't exactly rainbows coming out of his guns. You don't shoot bullets at someone unless you're trying to kill them (despite the number of TV characters who stupidly aim for he leg).

There could be some legit conflict between the new team and the old team, if the new team grew more confident in their abilities and started to question Oliver's methods. However, they cut the legs out from under that story by having all of the new people go crazy and try hurting/killing people, while whining about how Oliver hurts and kills people.

On a separate note...

I'm also not entirely sure how Curtis managed to hack into Diggle's implant (since they always need to have a big machine hooked up to it in order to work on it), but it could have been interesting if he'd figured out a way of sending out some sort of pulse that would ping off of it, disabling it, but disclosing Diggle's location... not realizing that in doing this, he would also disable Felicity's implant. What he did to Diggle was bad, but the visual of seeing Felicity on the ground, unable to move while all of the action took place would have had some impact.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

The Flash finally delivered a solid episode this season! While I still have some questions (like why they couldn't use a portal opener like the one they gave Kara, since their portals were working fine. Did they give her the only one?), and the overall resolution was iffy, the drama of the episode was pretty interesting. I remember reading a Flash story at some point, and Wally West was thrown off of a bridge. It was interesting because he was helpless, and there was no way to speed up the fall. He was experiencing every second as though it were in slow motion. I always thought that was interesting. From our POV, the Flash is just a streak, but he takes each step just like the rest of us. I've always wondered what it was really like for him to run from Central City to Star City. Does it feel like it takes forever for him, or does the speed force carry him like a current?

So yeah, this type if episode is one that I find interesting. I like seeing a different way of telling stories, using his unique abilities.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

All four Arrowverse shows were renewed today.  Black Lightning too.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Slider_Quinn21 wrote:

All four Arrowverse shows were renewed today.  Black Lightning too.

Found this interesting in the Deadline Hollywood article:

The network is expected to play with the sizes of the orders more than ever next season. It already does limited runs for a number of series including DC’s Legends of Tomorrow, The 100, iZombie, Crazy Ex-Girlfriend as well as Jane the Virgin this season. The list may grow bigger next season and include more DC shows I hear.

So if I’m reading that right, the DC shows may all be renewed, but it looks like some will have smaller episode orders.  The obvious candidate for a cut is Supergirl; a smaller order meaning that they can continue the Supergirl / Legends wheel format they just tried out.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Well, the CW is expanding their original content to six nights (I believe) so they also need to have enough content for an additional night 52 weeks a year.

All of the shows have dipped in quality, with (surprisingly) Legends as the only one that's willing to evolve and change.  I still think, as long as they're going to keep all these shows going, they need to start doing more fun stuff to keep it fresh.  I've talked ad nauseam about the need to change up the status quo and stir up lineups.  This would, ironically, be a great time to do a legit Flashpoint where we stick with the changes for a while.

But I don't think anything like that would happen, and the shows are gonna continue to feel stale.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I'm really enjoying all the shows this season. SUPERGIRL's been a delight with Kryptonian sleeper warriors, Alex dealing with her breakup and the crossover was amazing. THE FLASH has been terrific in giving our heroes a villain who can outthink them at every turn. LEGENDS has been a revelation and done the impossible by making Wally West a viable character and finding a way to humanize Damien Darhk to the point where he regrets Season 4 of ARROW as much as Stephen Amell and Informant.

ARROW has continued with its return to street-level action and had Oliver progress while still having the same flaws.

I thought the argument between Oliver and John this week in "Brothers in Arms" was incredible. Both make completely valid criticisms of each other's leadership, but both refuse to acknowledge their own flaws. Oliver dismisses John's point that his leadership style is fundamentally alienating while John ignores how he hid his medical problems from the team and endangered all of them. But John presents Oliver's human resource failures as tactical disasters when they weren't. Oliver portrays John's secrets as facilitating a criminal takeover of the city rather than the moral failures they actually were.

Oliver calling out John for killing Andy was truly cruel when Andy was declaring his intention to murder John's wife and child when John shot him. John was out of line to say that Diaz had won the city because of how Oliver had handled the recruits. In the end, neither are happy with themselves for how they've steered their teams but direct their frustration at each other rather than inwardly.

I also really like how, on THE FLASH, Iris has remained in charge at STAR Labs, something that I didn't entirely notice until Ralph snapped at Iris that she contributes nothing and she replied that she is the leader of the team. Candice Patton has such a gentle screen presence that it was only then that I realized she's been giving orders since the Season 4 premiere; it always felt like her instructions were suggestions that the others found so instantly clear in their logic and purpose that they would follow them.

On one level, it's trying to hammer the female lead into a meaningful role outside being the damsel in distress of Season 1. On another, this decision really works; Iris isn't a scientist or a fighter, but she is an excellent human resources person who grasps each team member's abilities and can distribute and direct them well, giving them the right attitude and direction for their skills and body of knowledge and allowing their specialities to inform her choices. And it really puts Oliver and John's leadership to shame. Slider_Quinn21 is constantly wondering why Team Arrow doesn't call Barry; I wonder why they don't call Iris.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I thought that Oliver throwing Andy's death in Diggle's face was a writing mistake. That felt petty and cruel. If Oliver had instead snapped and declared that Diggle's decision is the reason why Laurel is dead, it would have been such a bigger, heavier moment. It would have come from some dark truth that Oliver might not have even realized that he carried with him until that moment. But it also wouldn't have been something that could easily be stepped back later.

I still see no point in following Dinah and Curtis at this point. Maybe the other three leads want time off, but the writers killed my chance of enjoying these characters. Now I want them gone. And I say this as someone who actually liked the new team for a while. I'd be happy to see Ragman come back.


Iris running Team Flash... And the whole "we are the Flash" thing... It just doesn't sit well with me. I don't get why she has declared herself the leader, or why anyone else is following her. They play it off as her being really great at it, but it just seems like they don't know what to do with her, so she tells everyone to do what they always did without her.
Iris should be her own character, contributing to the series in her own way. She is not the Flash, and she shouldn't want to be. I just don't think tye writers know what to do with her.


Legends... I stopped watching the show earlier this season. Having been away from it for a few months, I was starting to think that I might catch up with it once it hit Netflix. However, having seen the trailer for the Obamaporn episode, I'm just done. Not only 8s it a completely fictional, idealized version of tye man, which isn't based on anything that we know about him at the time, but it violated the universe of the series. The writers have established different Presidents for the Arrowverse, meaning that Obama never happened. That was their decision and they made it. Then they decided that their need to fantasize about Obama was more important than the world they built.
Needlessly violating your relationship with the audience by simply not caring about the reality that you've established for your series is sloppy, unprofessional, hack writing. If they don't care about their story, why should anyone else?

They could have made the story work with a fictional character, or some other historical figure. But their need to worship Obama overruled logic. And before anyone assumes that this is just me being mad because I don't like Obama, this is why I stopped watching months ago. This is why I cried foul when Oliver Queen got stabbed and thrown off a cliff, and just walked it off. When the writers don't care, it shows. This has always been a problem with Legends, and it's only gotten worse.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I think the Iris stuff makes a lot of sense.....but I don't think they handled it very well.  Yes, it's been constant, but I don't think it was organically sewn into the material.  I think it's a great fit, and I think they could've easily sold it.  But, instead, she was just the leader without any on-screen discussion of it.

It's all sorta strange to me because I think her story could be really strong.  She wants to be a reporter, but she also wants to be a part of the team.  She sees all these people around her getting powers and taking charge of their lives, and she's just stuck in this weird limbo.  She got a taste of running the team during Flashpoint, and she got more when Barry was gone.  It's good, but it doesn't feel earned.

I thought the fight between Oliver and Diggle was cruel, but I think that was the point.  Oliver and John were so angry at each other that they weren't trying to make good arguments - they were going for the lowest of low blows.  There's a pause before Oliver says the Andy line, and I think it's supposed to indicate that Oliver is thinking of the worst thing he can say (and then he does).

I think getting Oliver to a point where he's truly alone after building this strong family is a really cool idea, but it also doesn't really feel that earned.  I think all these grievances are petty (even the injury to Rene) and could easily be worked out if they just dropped their egos for a second and had a real conversation.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I agree with that, I guess. The Iris stuff could work, but they just jumped to this point without explaining how it happened. If they wanted to explain that the team put her in charge after Barry was taken into the Speed Force because Caitlin was gone, Joe had a ton of work with the PD, and Cisco and Harry were too busy trying to figure out a way to get Barry back to spend their days monitoring radio chatter, it could have been interesting. Iris could have gotten the job because she had lost her place in the world. Then they could have turned it into a less sad story when she did really well at it, and wound up being this amazing partner to Barry when he came back.

Still, the "We are the Flash" stuff is crap. Imagine if Wonder Woman married a dude, and he decided that he owned a part of that glory. I don't think it'd go over very well. Iris is a great character, but she isn't Barry. She's not a speedster. She's not the Flash. She is Iris-friggin-West!


I do get what you're saying about the Oliver/Diggle fight, and I 100% agree that all of these fights could be resolved with a conversation, and this sort of thing is a huge peeve of mine in movies and TV (when the characters don't tell each other something that could resolve the entire plot, just because the plot can't be resolved yet). I just think that the Oliver/Diggle fight could have been brought to a really interesting, emotionally honest place, while still hitting that "low blow" mark that they were going for. More than that, it would have been a valid argument to make. It would have been Oliver talking about the death of someone that he had known (and loved) since he was a kid. It would have been someone who was part of the team, whose back they were supposed to have. It would have been someone that not only did Oliver care about, but Diggle cared about (to some degree). It would have been something that Diggle already expressed remorse over, and thought that the team had moved on from, but it's the sort of thing that would kinda/sorta always been there, as part of the makeup of the team.

As I was watching it, I just couldn't help but think that the moment that made me cringe could have so easily made me gasp.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Informant wrote:

I agree with that, I guess. The Iris stuff could work, but they just jumped to this point without explaining how it happened. If they wanted to explain that the team put her in charge after Barry was taken into the Speed Force because Caitlin was gone, Joe had a ton of work with the PD, and Cisco and Harry were too busy trying to figure out a way to get Barry back to spend their days monitoring radio chatter, it could have been interesting. Iris could have gotten the job because she had lost her place in the world. Then they could have turned it into a less sad story when she did really well at it, and wound up being this amazing partner to Barry when he came back.

Well, there were tons of ways they could've done it and made an emotional impact.  What if Joe insisted that she be the leader because he felt sorry for her.  And then, it turns out, she's really good at leadership, and she earns their respect.  Instead, it reminds me a little of the storyline on the Office where Nellie decided that she was the manager, sat in the chair, gave orders, and everyone just sorta went along with it.

They obviously put some thought because she makes sense in the role she's in.  But they apparently just decided to not explore the emotional side of it for whatever reason.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I think that's been a weak point for this season overall. They tried to go really light early on, which didn't work. As a result, I have a hard time taking the villain this year seriously.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Well, I wouldn't go that far.  I think the villain this year is a nice change of pace, and I think he's a lot better than Zoom or Savitar.  What bothers me about him is that I don't really get a feel for what his actual motives are.  He seems like he wants to change the world for the better, and he was only fighting Flash because he stood between him and his goal.  That's certainly what his wife seems to think, and even though he's obviously moved beyond that, it's unclear what his *new* motives are.  Does he just want to prove that he can beat Flash now?  Once he does, does he have a goal?

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

http://www.superherohype.com/news/41458 … ular-arrow

This is an odd development considering what happened a couple episodes ago...

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Yeah, I'm not sure what to make of this. It seems to undo the point of point of bringing him in for Thea's send-off.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I mean I like his character and think he could be an asset to the show....but.....I don't understand what they're doing with it.

(Obviously going to give them a chance to make it work tongue)

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Yeah, it's weird. Despite the fact that Colton has never been the strongest actor on the show, Roy Harper is a big character in the Green Arrow history. Having him come back could be really cool, especially if he is Oliver's only sidekick (they could have Diggle pursue another plot on his own for a while. Be the main character in his own arc for a bit). I just don't know what this means for the happy ending that Roy was supposed to give Thea (that sounded wrong).

It would be cool if he came back as Thea's husband though. He could be an actual part of Oliver's family. Brother in law to Felicity. Uncle to William. Brother to Oliver, though they should probably have some issues. Roy has been on his own for a while now, after all. He's probably not going to love taking orders.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Yeah but if Willa Holland is off the show, how could they pull off being married?  Would Willa come back for guest spots (like when Lyla shows up for Diggle scenes)?  Or would they be married but she never appears?

I do hope Thea gets a happy ending (you started it), but if the Season 7 big bad kills her, it could be a reason for Roy to rejoin the team.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

The writers once said that they'd never kill Thea. I hope they stick to it. I wonder if Willa will appear every now and then. It might depend on whatever her next project is. I think they could pull off the marriage thing, if Roy had a good reason for coming back. Maybe they could have him going off to see her from time to time, while returning to help Oliver take down the evil former sidekicks. smile

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Or Roy could be the villain.  Student vs. Teacher type stuff.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Ooh. The writers are on thin ice as it is. Making Roy the villain could be a mistake. Don't get me wrong, it could work, but it would be risky.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

It was kinda cool to have Oliver wear the old Hood uniform again.  Although, looking at it now, I'm not sure how we ever took that look seriously.

I also thought the Legends finale was pretty solid.  That show can be fun when it wants to be, and it showed that it has a decent amount of it's own lore to pull on.  Supergirl is back tonight.

And a funny thing happened to me while I was watching the Flash.  When Barry "benched" Ralph, I absolutely thought "wait, does Barry have the authority to bench someone?"  I honestly wasn't sure if The Flash was powerful enough in his own team to make decisions like that big_smile

And the Wells stuff is interesting.  I wonder if they're setting up for him to be the real Thinker.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Beth Schwartz has been named as the showrunner for Arrow's 7th season.  Wendy Mericle is gone and Marc Guggenheim will remain as a consultant.

Not sure what to think yet. The show desperately needs someone new running things, so this could be good. I just hope that the show can get back to it's hard-hitting roots. The show should be the dark, gritty series in the Arrowverse, but it hasn't been that in a while. I know Schwartz has been working on the show for a long time, but her other credits include Hart of Dixie, and Brothers and Sisters, so we'll see how this turns out.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

SPOILERS from this week's "Flash"

After meandering a bit this season, I think the Flash's Thinker storyline has really hit its stride.  I didn't expect for DeVoe to actually get all the bus metas (and Ralph) and for his plan to, essentially, succeed.  If this is actually the end of Ralph's store, it was a pretty solid one for a character that didn't always work.

It does, of course, make Team Flash look pretty dumb.  And I'm confused on how *no one* called Barry out on the idea that Barry has killed before.  In fact, depending on what happened to Zoom, *all* Barry's big villains ended up dead (or, more correctly, completely erased from existence).  I thought it was sorta hypocritical to leave that off the table when Barry hasn't always done that himself.

Two thoughts on DeVoe:

- I wish that DeVoe didn't have powers.  He'd be a much more interesting villain if he was no physical match for Team Flash (any of them) and only had his mind as a weapon.  The fact that he outsmarted them and can now beat them physically makes him a more powerful but less interesting villain.  It would've been better, maybe, if he'd been giving the powers to his wife.  So while she sees him becoming more of a monster, she also begins to accept it more as she becomes a monster herself.  Or it makes it even more tragic when she's the one killing people while being manipulated by the love tears.

- Team Flash getting utterly beaten actually gives me an Arrowverse idea.  It'd be cool if someone like the Thinker ended up beating Team Flash for an entire season, and defeating that villain ended up being the crossover the following season.  Or, inversely, if someone like the Thinker ended up being responsible for the big bads in all four shows....and then the big crossover happens as the finales of all four shows.  Since they went to an alternating format for Legends and Supergirl, it wouldn't really work.  But it'd be a cool way to involve everyone with a villain/villains that we're intimately familiar with.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Slider_Quinn21 wrote:

And a funny thing happened to me while I was watching the Flash.  When Barry "benched" Ralph, I absolutely thought "wait, does Barry have the authority to bench someone?"  I honestly wasn't sure if The Flash was powerful enough in his own team to make decisions like that big_smile

I had exactly the same reaction and I thought it was the greatest moment of the season for that moment of shocking hilarity, especially as a viewer who hadn't quite noticed that Iris had become the leader of the team.

Iris becoming the leader took place offscreen during the hiatus between Seasons 3 and 4. THE FLASH has, I think, always struggled with that; the resolution to the Season 1 finale cliffhanger was muddled by the odd choice to open Season 2 with a dream sequence and put the resolution in a flashback. Season 3's "Flashpoint" was a clumsy mess.

However, the theme of how everyone at STAR Labs is the Flash was a key theme of Season 1, particularly with Barry saying to Cisco and Caitlin that "we were all struck by lightning" and Iris, being the one to give the Flash his public reputation, was a key part of building the Flash myth in Central City.

Slider_Quinn21 wrote:

It was kinda cool to have Oliver wear the old Hood uniform again.  Although, looking at it now, I'm not sure how we ever took that look seriously.

Oliver being confronted by the Hood bellowing at him, "YOU HAVE FAILED THIS CITY!" was a very gripping moment and you know how much I love stories where characters are having conversations with themselves via hallucinations.