Supernatural (Page 4 of 5)

Agreed. Is it the alternate Gabriel, or did he just not die? We first saw him weeks ago, but they just let it sit there. If they wanted to bring him back, they should have done a better job of it. If they want me to buy his being back after all this time, they needed to set it up beforehand, and explain it when it happened. Right now, every time I see him, my reaction is "nuh-uh"

I'm also experiencing some serious Mandela effect symptoms right now. I could have sworn that the symbol used to hold demons was the Seal of Solomon. Now I'm looking it up and people are calling it the Key of Solomon.

I guess I'm watching this tonight.

This season has been a little problematic for me. I like a lot of it, but they keep bringing back dead people (Ketch, Rowena, Gabriel) which I find frustrating. I also find the parallel dimensions to be out of place on the show. It's fun for an episode here and there, but over many episodes, it feels wrong. Plus the very alien world's, I'm not a huge fan of.

Then they bring back dead characters in the other dimension and I'm not sure which gripe gets dibbs on that one.

I wasn't a huge fan of this episode anyway. I did like that Col. Sanders died, but not much else. It felt like they were treading water.

Yeah, and you'd think that God would have noticed too.

I know that each showrunner has had their own style and arc for the show, and like comic books, undoing deaths sometimes open up stories... But I'm not sure how many of these were necessary this year. Did we need Ketch and Rowena back? Did we even need Lucifer back on the show to this degree? And unless Gabriel is super, super important, bringing him back could be a huge mistake.

I feel like they're trying to go backwards too much, rather than move on to new arcs.

Agreed all around.

The thing with having a powerful witch on the show is, they become a too-easy solution to too many problems. On top of that, Supernatural tends to work best when they keep the CG fireworks to a minimum. As the years go on and these things become more affordable, the show has started relying on more an more computer generated effects, and monsters. However, Kripke always said that the Wendigo taught him that things worked better when they were in shadows, and I think that's true, even if we're not talking about rubber masks anymore.

Speaking of how the show looks... I forget if I have mentioned it before (probably have), but I've noticed that some episodes seem to look and sound cheaper than other episodes. While some episodes look great, others look like an old kid's show from the 90's, in some way. I don't know if it's lighting, color correction, or the camera they're using. But I've noticed that the audio sounds less refined as well.

I'm wondering if it's just me, or if other people have noticed this

Supernatural is moving......to the same place.  The CW is actually keeping them at the same day and time next season!

Supernatural finale:

I'm torn on this. There are elements that I was really drawn into, and elements that I thought were kinda cringy. I think that can be said for this entire season's arc.

The alternate world arc wasn't great overall. I like that the angels over there weren't the stupid corporate angels that we've seen over the last however many years. They were dangerous, and didn't spend scene after scene just talking about how powerful they were. However, as a whole, I'm just not sure about the other universe. Using it was a way to undo deaths without undoing deaths felt gimmicky to me. In a whole entire other world, they just happen to bump into a bunch of their old dead friends (and not even the ones that I'd be willing to have back even if the method of doing it was kinda weak). And Bobby/Mary? No.

It wasn't horrible. It just didn't feel like Supernatural to me.

However, we got Jack this year. I didn't like how he came about last year, and I didn't like bringing Lucifer back at all, but I did end up liking Jack a lot, which surprised me. Not only did I like him as a character, and how he works with all of the other characters, but I liked this underlying question of whether or not he was born to be bad. There was always this threat that he was too powerful and could do horrible things, even if he didn't meant to. Watching that tension fill the room in each scene, even if it wasn't being directly addressed, was fascinating.

There was real tension with Lucifer and Michael, even if I didn't love them being there at all. Lucifer trying to lure Jack to the dark side, using his same old Lucifer methods, was interesting. And when he finally turned on Jack, it wasn't really surprising, but it was emotionally charged, just because we care for Jack at this point. I do like that they took Jack's power away. Even having Castiel around is too much of a crutch for the series, so if Jack is to stay, he needs to be a person, not a super powerful being.

And then Dean saying yes to Michael after all these years... it was cool. However, it led to some of the more horrifically corny visuals to ever grace this show. The flying battle was bad. It was like watching a B-Movie from the 80's, to the point where I kinda think that they might have been riffing that style on purpose (especially with the freeze-frame at the end of the episode).

I'm sure I'm supposed to be wondering how they will get Dean out of this, but I was just left screaming at my TV "Boot him! Why are you whining about having a deal instead of saying no?!"

But whatevs.

So yeah... I don't know. The episode wasn't horrible. The whole arc wasn't horrible. It just didn't feel like it was taking place on the right show for me.

And lest I forget, I am going to ding Supernatural for doing something that I've bashed the Arrowverse for. No special treatment.

TRUMP IS NOT PRESIDENT IN THE SUPERNATURAL UNIVERSE!!!!!!!!! Watch your own damn show, people!!! Jack is genetically the damn president's son! Yes, it was a stupid idea, but you did it anyway. Now you don't get to make Trump jokes!

Yeah, I don't get a lot of the decisions that went into the finale. I could do without bringing over the doubles of people that we know. It doesn't feel like Bobby, so I don't see the purpose in bringing him back to the show as anything more than a quick nod. Having him on the show for keeps will feel weird, because it's Jim Beaver, but not really Bobby. And the longer they keep him around, the more questions will pop up about how the whole alternate history thing works on the show.

Should I take offense at that comment?

I just think that Chuck managed to remain enjoyable despite their limitations!

Two quick notes:

1. I don't really understand what they're doing with Michael.  Is he evil or is he not?  Because after trying to defeat Michael the whole season, the idea of them just letting him be the hero at the end was really strange.  I also don't really understand why Michael is evil in the Apocalypse World or what he was doing.  Is there no Chuck in the other world?  Did Michael kill Chuck?  Because Chuck was around during the Michael/Lucifer fight in the main world, and he was actively working to help the brothers. 

We had that alternate apocalypse world in season 5, but that was based on Lucifer winning.

2. There's a small chance that there was an election in 2017 that Trump could've won.  I don't know if they've ever specifically said that elections happened at the same time in their world and our world, but on shows like the West Wing, they've made little explanations for why the elections are off.  So maybe there was an election between Jack's birth and the finale. 

But it was a lazy joke that should've been caught.

I mean I'd love to dismiss it, but now it's such a big part of the show.  What's crazy is that it didn't even have to go that route.  If they wanted an alternate universe where the apocalypse happened in season 5....I think it's a great idea.  It really ties into the mythology of the show, and I sorta like how they can bring back gritty versions of everyone.

But it seems like a simple move to make.  Lucifer won.  He wipes out humanity because he's evil.  Or if you want to do the Michael thing....no one won.  The world is destroyed because Lucifer and Michael have been fighting for 8 years and don't care about collateral damage.  Michael can be a little twisted because of how long he's been at war, but he shouldn't just be executing people for no reason.

Instead of bringing back Gabriel, bring back Cage Michael.  He'd be just as twisted, and they could rehabilitate him.  And when you have Dean say yes to Cage Michael, you'd get a cool Sam/Dean dynamic because Cage Michael has been trapped with Sam in the Cage before.  They have actual history together.

They just didn't think Apocalypse World through at all.

That'll be cool!  Let us know when it's posted!

In Supernatural news, the series order for next season is only 20 episodes.

Transmodiar said that he would have to hate me on a physical level if I wrote any more fanfic. But I won't be spending much time writing this fanfic. Because I *can't* -- a writer dropped out and I've been asked to meet a deadline so tight that I have to write a beat sheet tomorrow and submit the draft the day after.

Due to this absurd timetable, I told the editor that I couldn't write prose, not even for a short novella -- instead, I would write it in the form of an in-universe document -- a transcript of an audio recording that would consist only of dialogue and sound effects. It'll be like those transcripts of conversations that I'm so fond of posting on this board and it'll let me get away with writing a (very short) script. It's a short audio drama.

I have no idea why the deadline is the deadline. All I know is that a WAYWARD SISTERS series would have been a vital platform for women and LGBTQ youth and amended SUPERNATURAL's numerous mis-steps with female characters, that fanfic showrunner Ryah Ignis is possibly the most encouraging editor I have ever worked with and relentlessly enthused by all my weird metatextual craziness to the point of allowing me to write what's essentially a screenplay for what was previously a prose novella format. She gave me some slight parameters, I told her what I could produce within 72 hours that I felt would be a professional and enjoyable product and she not only accepted this but told me how excited she was for such eccentric and bizarre storytelling and I mustn't let her down.

Also, my niece, who obsesses over SUPERNATURAL the way I obsess over SLIDERS, has agreed to rewrite all the dialogue into a pastiche of the actors' performances and I always wanted to work with her.

So, my script is going to be posted tomorrow. It's been very interesting. Lauren obsesses over SUPERNATURAL the way I obsess over SLIDERS, but to the point of religiously attending SUPERNATURAL conventions. The high point of the last one was apparently this pajama party sleepover event with Kim Rhodes (Jody) and Briana Buckmaster (Donna), both of whom feature in my story, so I asked Lauren to take my draft and rewrite all the dialogue based on her personal interaction with the actresses and their line deliveries and sense of timing. It seemed to go really well; the beta reader said that Jody and Donna sounded just like Jody and Donna... so hopefully, it'll work for everyone else as well or the results will be viewed as an absurd caricature of a caricature which would be instructive as well.

I'm a bit behind on Supernatural. Just watched episode 3 of this season, and I'm confused. First of all, they played Kaia as being more important than she was. The emotion they expressed wasn't warranted for a one-off guest star.

They played Claire's connection to her as being something that really didn't come across at the time at all. And... Did they just gay up Claire in an episode where she didn't even appear?

It's like they kept referencing a totally different show than what I was watching last year.

Anyway, it took me a while to watch this episode and I realized that the excitement just wasn't there. I don't think the Dabb era is working for me. It feels more like Once Upon a Time than Supernatural at times.

I'll still watch, but I'm interested in seeing what the next show runner can do.

Maybe I'm just forgetting the backdoor pilot episode, but I have no memory of them being particularly flirty or sexual. Certainly not in any sort of real love. To me, it seemed like every time they referenced what happened in that episode, it was like a weird parallel universe version of what I saw.

I might not have been paying attention during that episode. Like I said, the Dabb era hasn't been drawing my attention as much.

That would explain a lot. I figured that they were going for a 1980s sci-fi/horror movie vibe, but it just looked bad. It was never even a good idea in the 80s.

The Halloween episode was pretty fun, and reminded me why I still watch this show. The arc episodes are a chore to get through, but the monster of the week episodes are great.

It also looked better than other episodes lately. I don't understand why some episodes of Supernatural look and sound like they were filmed by a soap opera crew, on someone's iPhone (usually the arc/mythology episodes), and other episodes look like legit tv show episodes that people care about. Do they alternate crews or something?

About dang time!

Conversation with the niece!

IB: "So, something I noticed in the episode with the resurrected zombie boyfriend and the serial killer shopgirl -- "

LAUREN: "Yeah?"

IB: "Well, at two points in the episode, Jack and Dean have a clear line of fire to take Harper the Serial Killer Shopgirl out -- but they don't take it. They're keen to stop the zombie boyfriend, but the direction and the blocking and editing are very careful not to show them being physically aggressive towards a woman."

LAUREN: "Well, yeah."

IB: "And a couple seasons ago -- the British Men of Letters organization turned Sam and Dean's mother into a brainwashed assassin who'd killed any number of Sam and Dean's friends. So when they corner the lady who runs the Men of Letters, Sam should be well within his rights to execute this psychotic murderess -- she's declared honest-to-God, all-out war on hunters which is the moral equivalent of sending a sniper after firemen and paramedics. But Sam waits for the lady to pull her weapon BEFORE he shoots her."

LAUREN: "Yeah, it's totally justifiable -- but the show just doesn't want to show men killing women onscreen. Because even if it's not real, it's still -- it's a really disturbing image in real-world situations because in real life, when men kill women, it's about power and dominance and control and SUPERNATURAL doesn't want to endorse that or have footage for that."

IB: "Well, for the third time -- Harper is a serial killer."

LAUREN: "Oh, like Sam and Dean haven't murdered lots of people."

IB: "Like who!? I mean, there was that lady whose blood Sam drank, but she was possessed by a demon -- and there was the werewolf mercy killing -- "

LAUREN: "How about that Frankenstein family member who got dragged into breaking into the bunker?"

IB: "Oh, that's fine."

LAUREN: "How was that fine!?"

IB: "He was part of a home invasion! I'm sorry, but you invade someone's home, you die. Sam and Dean will never feel safe in the bunker again!"

LAUREN: "Oh, I hate the bunker. Sam and Dean are supposed to be working class heroes; I don't like them being heirs to the Men of Letters legacy."

My opinion is that SUPERNATURAL is not the real world and that a planet Earth with monsters and angels and demons roaming the streets, even in secret, would be in a very different political place from our world. Dean has spent most of his life living off the grid; I can't imagine him bothering with politics.

I think trying to figure out if he voted for Trump or Clinton or third party or whatever is searching for something that just doesn't exist -- and honestly, I don't think we should bring it into existence. For all my Views about Informant, I would prefer that Informant could look at Dean and see whatever he needs to see. It's already tough for him when Superman is presented as an alien citizen of the world who was raised by a hologram of Jor-El instead of being Clark Kent raised by Jonathan and Martha Kent in Kansas. I would not wish to add to his burden.

There's also the fact that many, many, many different writers and showrunners have written for Dean and many fans have reacted to Dean differently and created their own Dean.

For example, Lauren's personal vision of Dean: he's bisexual. I cannot see this at all; Dean to me is one of the most hilariously, ridiculously heterosexual men on television and while I don't think he's homophobic, he's averse to homosexuality. It makes him uncomfortable. If he saw two men kissing, he would avert his eyes, apologize for his discomfort, declare he's trying to give them privacy and then say something like, "My problem, not yours. You do you, boys."

I don't really see Dean as a sexual harasser, either. Yes, Dean is very into casual sex, but Dean's attitude to women seems to be to approach with a compliment and a willing smile and then let the woman make the next move or fail to in which case he immediately moves on to another prospect. Dean is also deeply, innately unattracted to women who are unassertive; if a woman didn't seem interested in flirting back with him, Dean would lose interest straightaway. Dean wants women who match his sex drive.

I hate to say it, but this season really isn't working for me at all. The Michael thing feels weak, like they're just trying to think of somewhere to go with it, and at times the show is contradicting what's already been established. The whole idea of the Empty as being not only another afterlife where angels go, but also as an actual being runs counter to what we've seen before. God couldn't assemble an army of archangels to fight Amara because they were dead and he didn't have time to make more. If he could just pop over to the next room and wake them up, why didn't he? Jack is powerful, but not *God* powerful.
And how can there be a backdoor for Michael to use to get into Dean, when he would absolutely need a "Yes" to get into any person, and the slightest "No" after that would keep him out?

Having a 12 year old girl (or however old she is) leading an army of hunters (and by "army", I mean "the few who could fit into the back of the car") was weird. Especially since she's already been established as someone who isn't a great hunter.

None of it is working. And while I still love the stand-alone episodes, they don't even seem to be doing many of them this year. An like Marc Zicree said, when you're focusing only on one arc for the whole season, it's really hard to fix what's broken along the way, and so much of the main arcs are broken at this point. I realized that as I was watching Dean's dream world and I found myself wishing that *that* was the show each week. Winchester's Roadhouse would allow them to work with other hunters and give the actors time off when needed, but it would feel more "Supernatural" than what the bunker has become.

Speaking of which... this place was supposed to be so mystically warded that even an angel couldn't get into it without a key. Now they have more people breaking into it than the Arrowcave.

I don't think that the show is so broken that it can't possibly be fixed. However, I do think that it might be time for the next showrunner to step in. Someone who is a fan of the earlier seasons and wouldn't mind rolling back the style a little bit. Supernatural, at its best, is a road trip story, with brothers in a cool car, shooting up monsters and exploring the rich culture of America through its urban legends and folklore. Right now, the show is suffocating itself with its own mythology. I don't want to see it end like The X-Files.

I think Michael's comments were similar to what we've heard before, from many other characters. And it makes a certain amount of sense to the characters, but we have seen God/Chuck step in pretty often.

One of the show's themes is free will. You can't have both free will, and God making every decision for us. He can tell us not to eat the fruit, but if He makes it impossible for us to eat the fruit, we don't have free will. The fact that Chuck stepped in so many times on the show just tells us that he loves his world/people too much to sit back and watch them destroy themselves.

God/Chuck is an interesting character, filled with contradictions and layers that ultimately make sense for the character. But I disagree with Michael's theory that Chuck keeps scratching drafts and starting over. If that were true, he wouldn't exist. Michael is avoiding the responsibility of his own actions. Maybe Chuck decided to give the angels a chance to run their own world, and what it became was what they made it.

As a writer, I let my characters run loose at times, but they don't have free will. If they did, they'd probably kill me.

Supernatural renewed for Season 15.

Ten seasons post one of the best series finales ever