Re: Supernatural

God the last episode was horrible.  The British MOL are simply awful.  Have the writers SEEN this series before?

Re: Supernatural

Sorta funny Walking Dead reference in this week's episode.  Dean has a barbed-wire-covered baseball bat, and he says "Dad loved this thing."  John Winchester (Jeffrey Dean Morgan, obviously) is now on TWD and famously uses a barbed-wire-covered bat.

Re: Supernatural

Secondary weird note - is it weird to anyone else that the Impala isn't more protected?  I'd think it'd be warded like crazy.  There's only a ward in the trunk, right?

Re: Supernatural

Question - if a werewolf can be "cured" - why can't Castiel do that?

Re: Supernatural

He wasn't contracted for that episode.

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Re: Supernatural

I just feel like if curing was even somewhat possible, it would've been mentioned before.  And would be an absolute gamechanger.

Re: Supernatural

Apparently, it isn't a sure thing. Most people would die.

I wonder if she survived because she is a potential angel vessel. Do they have some extra resilience?

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Re: Supernatural

Maybe.  It's really weird that Castiel wasn't in the episode.  It would've been nice to have some heavenly insight - not to mention his connection to Claire.

Re: Supernatural

I'm good with Castiel and Crowley appearing less, and people like Claire appearing more.

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Re: Supernatural

I agree with that.  This just seemed like a natural place for him to show up, and it was odd that he didn't.

Re: Supernatural

As indicated in the Arrowverse thread, Supernatural stays on Thursday.

In other news, two-part finale tonight.  Or two-episode finale.  I don't know if they're connected or not.

Re: Supernatural

Which means Supernatural vs Gotham.

Sigh. It's been a while since I had a real conflict! I will probably save Gotham for later, since there isn't a whole night of interesting programming on FOX there. Supernatural and Arrow work well together, though I'd swap timeslots if I were in charge. Supernatural is a darker show... Scooby-Doo episode notwithstanding.

http://ew.com/tv/2017/05/18/supernatura … r-episode/

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Re: Supernatural

Wow, that's quite the finale. 

Do we think (SPOILERS) and (SPOILERS) are going to stay (SPOILERS)?  And were you upset that (SPOILERS) so so unceremoniously (SPOILERS)?  I also liked  the surprise (SPOILERS) of (SPOILERS) in the (SPOILERS)?

In all seriousness, I thought it was really thrilling.  And in the penultimate one, I was shocked at how emotional Dean's talk with Mary was.

Re: Supernatural

Still processing my thoughts since I just watched the final two episodes. Here's where I am so far...

Hour one -
I think they could have focused on the MoL story alone and made this the season finale. Having hunters assemble with Sam taking the leadership role was cool. Dean had some powerful scenes too. Overall, I think the Men of Letters story was strong and worked, but they need to learn the method by which Kripke worked within his budget. They try to go too big and fancy sometimes, like with the modern MoL base, and it ends up looking like a 1990's Sci-fi Channel set.
Solid hour.


Hour two -
Honestly, I could do without this whole arc. Lucifer shouldn't have come back. The baby story has been done already. The alternate world looked cheesy.
That said, the setup is really interesting. There is potential for a soft reboot now, since so many crutch characters are gone. I'm surprised that Rowena was killed off camera, but it worked.
I want these deaths to stick, but there were so many of them that it's all begging to be reset. Ideally, next season would have Sam and Dean find a way to save Mary, and then the show would move on. However, I worry that everything that happened in this episode will be a waste of time.

My brother suggested that Mary will interact with alternate versions of those dead characters next season, but I really hope that (like Hell and Purgatory) we don't spend very long in the alternate universe. Hell, I'd rather see Mary end up on the Flash than spend multiple episodes in that world.

Depending on how this goes, the episode was either a huge step forward, or a big waste of time.

Overall, it felt unpolished in parts. Some directing decisions were questionable. Not horrible, but this arc wasn't my favorite.

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Re: Supernatural

I was surprised about Rowena, if only because I thought she deserved an on-screen death.  I don't know if it was a scheduling issue or some sort of problem with the actress, but she'd become an important-enough character that it was a bit surprising that she was burned to a crisp off screen (the overkill of her death seemed a bit like the Arturo death in that way).

But if Crowley is dead, there's really no reason to bring her back either.

I do hope that some of these deaths stick, although I also fear that they're gonna bring all of them back.  I really liked Crowley's death.  He's always been a "bad" character that's usually leaned good, and I'm glad he finally realized that.  He's been an antagonist, but he's done about as much good as Castiel (and is just as likely to help, it seems).  To have him sacrifice himself to trap Lucifer is a pretty cool thing.

Cass' death was way too casual to stick.  I wouldn't have minded if the baby had been born (as a baby) and Castiel had left the show to take care of him.  I know they want to do the nephilim storyline, but that could've been something that was in the background.  If this is how Castiel dies, it was almost as unceremonious as Rowena's death.  And I'd leave Mary and Lucifer trapped in that other world, never to appear again.  She gets to be with Bobby, living kickass lives as full-time hunters.  I think that's, in a real weird way, a happy ending for her.

Re: Supernatural

Leaving Mary wouldn't make sense to me. I don't see how Sam or Dean would ever stop looking for a way to get her back, just like they've done for each other a bunch of times. She's family... And not Adam.

On top of that I don't get why they would bring her back, set her up, and then just get rid of her. She is a solid character who opens a lot of doors.

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Re: Supernatural

Well, here's my thinking.

Getting her back risks getting Lucifer back.  I know she's family, but that's a huge risk bringing her back.  And, like I said, I feel like it's almost a happy ending for her.  She never really belonged, and she only felt comfortable hunting.  Now that's all she'll get to do.  Bobby seemed like he was at peace in that world (he never asks to come back with them), and I think she'd be the same way.  I agree that she'll probably come back (with Lucifer), and they probably needed a better goodbye if they were going to do things that way (where she chooses to go).  But if this is how it ends, it's probably the happiest of all the endings we got in that episode.

Re: Supernatural

The happiest, maybe. If only because she is still alive. However, she is with Lucifer. How long does she last there?

I do wonder who exists and how, in that other world. Michael and Lucifer needed Sam and Dean in order to go through with their big apocalypse. So, what would their roles be on that other world? Still, I'm not sure that I want to be there long enough to find out.

I do think that Sam and Dean need to work endlessly to get Mary back though. The risk is no greater than when Sam was in the cage. It would be weird if they gave up. However, it doesn't necessarily need to happen in the premiere, since Samantha Smith isn't one of the leads.

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Re: Supernatural

Is it just me or did all these season-long plotlines -- Men of Letters, Lucifer's spawn, Mary's detachment -- just get resolved in a very rushed, anti-climactic way? There was no build-up, no rising action. A lot of troubling, random events followed by the hunters storming the Men of Letters installation and blowing it up. Tremendously rushed, anti-climactic deaths for two characters, one of whom didn't even appear onscreen. And before there was any time to absorb that, the nephilim is born and we only glimpse it before the season ends. This didn't feel like a season finale.

Re: Supernatural

It did feel like there were two factions in the writers room - the Men of Letters team and the Nephilim team - each that wrote out full conclusions...and then the show decided to cut both in half and air them both.  It did feel like different seasons.

Re: Supernatural

Yeah, I think that the Men of Letters storyline felt more developed, and that resolution felt more fulfilling. The nephilim story felt half-baked and kinda useless from the start. The kid is the President's son, genetically speaking, but... does that matter? Why? It just seems like a story that's there because they needed something "supernatural" and this was just them going through the motions of doing that.

I do hope that he makes for a good villain. Maybe they can make him interesting by not making him eeeeevil from the start. Maybe we (and Sam and Dean) actually like him at first, but he slowly starts to make choices that turn out badly and becomes a threat. Possibly not even on purpose.

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Re: Supernatural

Seems like at least one death will stick. Mark Sheppard will not be returning as a series regular next season.

I like the actor, but this is long overdue. I am pretty sure that you could edit out 90% of his scenes without losing any plot over the past few years.

Misha Collins has suggested that Castiel has a future, but we don't know if that means that he will be a regular. Personally, I'd rather see Mary, Jodi or Claire promoted to series regular.

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Re: Supernatural

Sheppard's sticking makes the most sense.  He had the most closure.

Re: Supernatural

Kinda makes you wonder why they didn't just kill him a couple of weeks ago though.

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Re: Supernatural

Well, he had to go out with a win.  I know you didn't love his character, but I thought he had pretty good chemistry with the rest of the cast.  His character didn't hold up to much scrutiny (he never seemed like the King of Hell), but if you just took him at face value, he was fun.

Re: Supernatural

So apparently there is a group of fans that believes that the upcoming spinoff, Wayward Sisters, is a ripoff of an idea that was created and developed by the fans.

I got into a conversation with a couple of these people, and as best I can figure, the facts are these:

1. In season 9, Supernatural introduced Alex. She's a girl who was victimized by vampires, and she was ultimately sent to live with Jody. Season 9 also introduced Donna Hanscum, another female sheriff who quickly befriended Jody.

2. Season 10 reintroduced Claire, who had been orphaned after Castiel took her father's body as his vessel and her mother disappeared (and later died). Ultimately, Claire was sent to live with Jody. As she left, she asked, "This is some sort of halfway house for wayward girls?"

3. The fans liked the idea of these characters interacting, so they came up with the idea of having these characters interact and have stories of their own. They called this Wayward Daughters. The actresses involved supported the idea and it became a whole thing.

4. Season 11, episode 12, "Don't You Forget About Me" was all about Jody, Claire and Alex. It was a very popular episode, which had many, many people calling for a spinoff (myself included)

5.  Recently, the Supernatural producers announced that they would be creating a backdoor pilot for a series called Wayward Sisters, which follows this group (along with the granddaughter of a character that I won't spoil). The writers said that they'd been toying with the idea ever since they wrote Claire back onto the show, but the timing wasn't right until this season.

6. Fanrage! They stole the idea that the fans created! How dare they take credit for this?!!?!?

http://www.supernaturalwiki.com/index.p … _Daughters



Okay, so... where to begin?

I will start in season 8, with Krissy Chambers. She is a girl who was orphaned after her hunter father was killed. Krissy goes to live in a house for wayward supernaturally orphaned kids. So, the idea was on the show long before the fans were pushing for Wayward Daughters. (also, I want Krissy on this new series!)

Next, the writers put Alex and Claire with Jody, not the fans. This isn't a case of the fans creating an idea, it's a case of them... watching the show and not being able to understand the line between their own thoughts and what's happening on the screen? The writers clearly had the idea for stories involving this group of characters, which is why they put them together in the first place.

I find it absolutely hilarious and outrageous that fans are claiming that this was their idea, to the point of accusing the writers of ripping it off. Is this some sort of mental illness?


I love Supernatural, but I've never liked the fandom. I have always hated the crazy fangirls, and I've never forgiven them for causing Jo and Ellen to be written off of the show. They claim to want more female representation on the show, but they've always thrown tantrums every time a woman got anywhere near a Winchester brother... unless the character was gay or maternal in some way that made her non-threatening to the fangirl delusion that the Winchesters would fall in love with them.

This claim that the writers stole a fan idea makes me even more mad. Maybe it's the writer in me, but it's infuriating.

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Re: Supernatural

What do the fans want?  A "Developed by the fans of supernatural?" credit?  Do they want to be hired as writers?  What's the plan?

Re: Supernatural

In general, I think the plan for Supernatural fangirls has always been to be as whiny and bitchy as humanly possible.

Mission accomplished.

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Re: Supernatural

Maybe they want female representation that's not just a love interest.  I've heard that women are capable of other things.

Re: Supernatural

We have tried different types of female characters on the show. Ellen and Jo were more like a mother and sister to them in season two, for example. But the fangirls screamed until they were written off. And the show is going into season 13, and we've had one long-term relationship on the show (which the fangirls rejected), with another multi-episode relationship that was over before we even saw how it played out. I don't think the show can be accused of reducing women to housewife cliches.

That said, there was nothing wrong with the Lisa character. They should have kept her around and allowed Dean to hold onto the maturity that his season 6 arc brought to his character.

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Re: Supernatural

The show has unfortunately devolved into a soap.  Out of ideas.  Season was pretty bad arc-wise.  Now they're saying there's NO end in sight, and old characters will return, I guess from the dark universe, IDK.

Re: Supernatural

I am a little uneasy with what I've heard about the new season. I wish the alternate reality would be resolved quickly and not get much focus. I wish there was no more Heaven/Hell/angel/demon stuff...

But then again, the show has surprised me in the past. Maybe this won't suck, but last year's arcs could have been better.

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Re: Supernatural

yep tue after Gilmore girls as he was formerly from gg, then ironically after smallville the following year as the other brother was from year 1 of smallville, then followed smallville from thur to fri, then back to thur, to wed, to thur again always at 9pm till midpoint last season

Re: Supernatural

I actually liked the premiere more than I thought I would. Jack isn't as bad as I expected. I like the vagueness of the character. He could go either way. At times he seems like Castiel, and at other times it seems like he could blow the world up with his brain. I'm curious to see how long they walk this line with him, and which side he ends up on.

Still not a big fan of the alternate universe though.

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Re: Supernatural

Yeah, I thought it was pretty good.  Although I'm still completely confused on what shape Heaven is in.  Every year they seem to lose whoever's in charge.  This week, the lead female angel acted way more like a demon than an angel, and that's what I thought she was until the second she died.  I thought the angels and demons were working together.

You've said this for a while, but they all need to be retired.  Heaven and Hell are too mangled by this point.

Re: Supernatural

I really didn't expect tonight's Supernatural to work for me. Oddly, it did. I still think that Jack is a strong addition to the show, and seeing the angels take action, rather than stand around in suits and talking a bunch, actually didn't annoy me. They reminded me of the angels from season 5.

Still not a huge fan of the Supernatural multiverse, but it wasn't too bad today.

The one beat that was weird was when Patience's father told her not to come back. I expected it, because I knew that she is going to join Jody's team, but it didn't seem natural to me. Even when he said it, the delivery struck me more like "Once you get into that life, there's no going back" when it seemed to be scripted more like a "If you leave this house, don't bother coming back."

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Re: Supernatural

I'm probably a week behind, but it's been a good season so far.

Re: Supernatural

Wayward Sisters -

Sam and Dean were trapped in Land of the Lost!

Overall, I liked the episode and the setup for the new series. I think it's smart to have a group of characters with different skills, so they can rotate from week to week. Everyone worked really well together. Usually, there's not a lot to say about the things that work in a story, while the down sides are a bit easier to discuss. So don't read the following as a negative review of the episode. I liked it. With that in mind...

I'm still not a huge fan of the Supernatural multiverse, but it worked for this story. I do kinda miss the Kripke era, when they would keep monsters in shadows a lot of the time, or give them human faces. I don't think we needed to see the giant monster at all. Letting the audience fill in blanks with their imagination works really well in a lot of stories, and I think the show is losing sight of that more and more each season.

I don't know if it's just my local station's broadcasting, or what, but the audio for Supernatural has sounded weird lately. Like they have bad mics or something. Combined with unnecessary background music in some scenes, or "cheap" background music in other scenes, the series can sometimes feel like a lower quality production than it is. Some of the directing choices have been weird too (like that weird handheld camera zoom/unzoom thing that people use when they want to look gritty, but it usually just looks lame).

I don't know who left the show or who joined the show behind the scenes over the years, but it seems like corners are being cut to save money, while money is being spent unnecessarily in other places (big giant CG monster that we didn't need to see). Some of this could be the broadcast quality where I am, but some of it is definitely on the production side. They should tighten that up.

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Re: Supernatural

What the heck is up with the writers' obsession with Rowena?

Re: Supernatural

I honestly don't know. The season was fine without her, and I don't see a huge need for her. Ruth Connell has said that she always knew that it wasn't going to stick, so this was the plan all along. I just don't get why. Why kill her? Why bring her back? Even in this episode, I think they could have done without her.

That said, the episode wasn't horrible. The story of the two witches trying to revive their mother could have been a fun episode on its own.

I'm super tired of the demon lair, with the throne room and the dungeons and all that. It is a set that's dedicated entirely to useless dialogue. I wish that Lucifer really was dead, but we know he's not. I think that at this point, the writers need to make death mean something again. Maybe introduce a third tablet: the tablet of life and death. Explain that it went missing about ten or fifteen years ago, and it's throwing off the balance of the world by allowing the dead to come back. Maybe a reaper went nuts and stole it. Then you have three tablets that can solve all of the show's major problems at this point. smile

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Re: Supernatural

Well, that's the thing.  There are tons of cool characters that could've been brought back if they really wanted (going back to Jo and Ellen).  And yet Rowena comes back time and again.  A super-powerful witch is a cool anti-hero, but couldn't they just introduce someone new?

Re: Supernatural

I think that the problem with a character like that in general is that they become an easy answer for everything. A puff of smoke and some mumbled latin, and the need for any significant plot resolution flies out the window. This was a problem on Buffy too. Eventually, Willow was more powerful than Buffy.

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Re: Supernatural

For f*** sake, how many dead characters have they brought back *this season*??? This would have been a great time to bring Michael/Adam back.

And we have another throne room.

They really need to do away with some of their storytelling safe zones on this show. The arc/mythology episodes are 90% filler scenes and usually just repeated stuff that we've seen a million times before.

I will be happy when Jack and Mary get back, but after that, I want some stand alone episodes, so I can remember why I watch this show.

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Re: Supernatural

Informant wrote:

For f*** sake, how many dead characters have they brought back *this season*??? This would have been a great time to bring Michael/Adam back

I was shocked that it was Gabriel.  And, honestly, pissed.

Gabriel's death scene might be one of the best scenes the show's ever done.  It's wonderfully done, wonderfully acted, and it has a ton of real weight to it.  It was a huge win for Lucifer, but it was also what helped the boys come up with the plan to put him back in the cage.  It's one of the most important scenes in the show, and I think it's a lot about the core of what the show is.

I think he was a great character, but he should've stayed dead.  His death should mean something.  Like John's has.

Michael would've made sense.  Even a miracle resurrection by Raphael would've been better.  I hate this.

Re: Supernatural

Yeah, I know that a lot of fans online are really psyched, but I'm not there. It didn't make sense. It didn't seem necessary. And after Castiel, Ketch and Rowena coming back, I'm just not happy with some of the decisions being made.

I like Jack. I even kinda like having Mary back. I still think that the stand-alone episodes are great and prove that the show isn't past its expiration date. But things need to change.

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146 (edited by Grizzlor 2018-02-16 10:04:43)

Re: Supernatural

I'll admit, for a split second, I thought of Info and how his eyes were widening.  Then saw my boy Richard Speight, Jr., and thought of Info screaming bloody murder!  Ha ha ha! 

I don't think that Jake Abel is on the outs with production, because he regularly appears at the Creation conventions.  If he were, they'd probably block him from those.

Re: Supernatural

I think it's strange, how the Supernatural team have handled Adam. They act as though he is a mistake that should never be referenced again (like the Leviathans), but the fans have never shared this view of the character. To the home audience, it's always been baffling that such family-driven characters would forget their own brother, who also represents a massive failure for them. The characters don't even seem to remember him (when they're alive), which could make for a great setup for a story, but the time for that story was years ago.

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Re: Supernatural

Canonically, where is Adam/Michael?  Is he in a separate part of Lucifer's cage?  When we saw the cage a couple of seasons ago, Lucifer was alone.  Was he moved to that separate cage?

And since this season seems to imply that Michael is evil, was our version of Michael evil too?  He never came across that way to me.

Re: Supernatural

Supernatural is back for Season 14.

And Scoobynatural was tons of fun.

Re: Supernatural

Woohoo! The show will go on forever. They need more human characters. Old Castiel will be weird.


Forgot to reply about Adam. As far as we know, yeah is still in the cage. The cage we saw was more like a sub-cage, I think. Why haven't they freed Adam? I have no bloody clue. His soul is probably mush by now though. Unless Good plucked him out at some point.

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Re: Supernatural

Technically the show was already "renewed" for 14 like a year ago, as the boys signed two year deals.  Scoobynatural was incredible.  I laughed nonstop.

Re: Supernatural

I still hate that Gabriel is back.

Re: Supernatural

Agreed. Is it the alternate Gabriel, or did he just not die? We first saw him weeks ago, but they just let it sit there. If they wanted to bring him back, they should have done a better job of it. If they want me to buy his being back after all this time, they needed to set it up beforehand, and explain it when it happened. Right now, every time I see him, my reaction is "nuh-uh"

I'm also experiencing some serious Mandela effect symptoms right now. I could have sworn that the symbol used to hold demons was the Seal of Solomon. Now I'm looking it up and people are calling it the Key of Solomon.

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Re: Supernatural

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

NO.

NO!

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Re: Supernatural

Informant wrote:

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

NO.

NO!

I guess I'm watching this tonight.

Re: Supernatural

Hahah that's not what I was expecting.

Poor Informant.

Re: Supernatural

This season has been a little problematic for me. I like a lot of it, but they keep bringing back dead people (Ketch, Rowena, Gabriel) which I find frustrating. I also find the parallel dimensions to be out of place on the show. It's fun for an episode here and there, but over many episodes, it feels wrong. Plus the very alien world's, I'm not a huge fan of.

Then they bring back dead characters in the other dimension and I'm not sure which gripe gets dibbs on that one.

I wasn't a huge fan of this episode anyway. I did like that Col. Sanders died, but not much else. It felt like they were treading water.

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Re: Supernatural

Gabriel's fake out death both makes some sense (in a Loki sort of way), but I still don't like it.  I feel like Lucifer would've noticed.

And it's still one of my favorite scenes, and for it to be retconned just really upsets me.  *Especially* since I liked the character.  His death might've been the most effective in the entire series.  Maybe more than John's.

Re: Supernatural

Yeah, and you'd think that God would have noticed too.

I know that each showrunner has had their own style and arc for the show, and like comic books, undoing deaths sometimes open up stories... But I'm not sure how many of these were necessary this year. Did we need Ketch and Rowena back? Did we even need Lucifer back on the show to this degree? And unless Gabriel is super, super important, bringing him back could be a huge mistake.

I feel like they're trying to go backwards too much, rather than move on to new arcs.

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Re: Supernatural

Well, and these roles could've been filled by new characters that could flesh out the world.  Or returning characters that could be secretly working for Asmodeus - like Garth.  Or it could be another young hunter that Sam and Dean try to help out (maybe to fill in for the loss of Jack) that ends up betraying them.

For the witches....bring in a new character to be a powerful witch.

For the archangel, if you want to resurrect someone, use Raphael.  Or, you know, since you already have a Michael on the show...use a rehabilitated Michael.  They're already going with "tortured Gabriel" - they could've just as easily used Michael.

Re: Supernatural

Agreed all around.

The thing with having a powerful witch on the show is, they become a too-easy solution to too many problems. On top of that, Supernatural tends to work best when they keep the CG fireworks to a minimum. As the years go on and these things become more affordable, the show has started relying on more an more computer generated effects, and monsters. However, Kripke always said that the Wendigo taught him that things worked better when they were in shadows, and I think that's true, even if we're not talking about rubber masks anymore.


Speaking of how the show looks... I forget if I have mentioned it before (probably have), but I've noticed that some episodes seem to look and sound cheaper than other episodes. While some episodes look great, others look like an old kid's show from the 90's, in some way. I don't know if it's lighting, color correction, or the camera they're using. But I've noticed that the audio sounds less refined as well.

I'm wondering if it's just me, or if other people have noticed this

Please be informed that the political, scientific, sociological, economic and legal views expressed in Informant's posts and social media accounts do not reflect any consensus of Sliders.tv.

Re: Supernatural

Two things:

1. Wayward Sisters apparently didn't get picked up.  I enjoyed the little backdoor pilot they did.  Sad it won't get a chance to go.

2. Come on, Sammy.  I know what he was trying to do, but it was just stupid to betray the Devil like that.  You know he's going to find his way back, and you know Jack is going to be mad when he finds out what you did.  Honestly, I felt it was more of a Dean move than a Sam move.  Maybe that was the point....but it was really dumb (of the character, not necessarily the writers).

Re: Supernatural

Supernatural is moving......to the same place.  The CW is actually keeping them at the same day and time next season!

Re: Supernatural

That's new! smile

I'm curious to see where they go with the show. I'm not totally into having the other-worlders settling in the main universe. However, the angels from that world have been handled better than the prime angels lately. With no king of Hell, and Heaven being closed off, the show might finally lose some of their crutches.

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Re: Supernatural

Supernatural finale:

I'm torn on this. There are elements that I was really drawn into, and elements that I thought were kinda cringy. I think that can be said for this entire season's arc.

The alternate world arc wasn't great overall. I like that the angels over there weren't the stupid corporate angels that we've seen over the last however many years. They were dangerous, and didn't spend scene after scene just talking about how powerful they were. However, as a whole, I'm just not sure about the other universe. Using it was a way to undo deaths without undoing deaths felt gimmicky to me. In a whole entire other world, they just happen to bump into a bunch of their old dead friends (and not even the ones that I'd be willing to have back even if the method of doing it was kinda weak). And Bobby/Mary? No.

It wasn't horrible. It just didn't feel like Supernatural to me.

However, we got Jack this year. I didn't like how he came about last year, and I didn't like bringing Lucifer back at all, but I did end up liking Jack a lot, which surprised me. Not only did I like him as a character, and how he works with all of the other characters, but I liked this underlying question of whether or not he was born to be bad. There was always this threat that he was too powerful and could do horrible things, even if he didn't meant to. Watching that tension fill the room in each scene, even if it wasn't being directly addressed, was fascinating.

There was real tension with Lucifer and Michael, even if I didn't love them being there at all. Lucifer trying to lure Jack to the dark side, using his same old Lucifer methods, was interesting. And when he finally turned on Jack, it wasn't really surprising, but it was emotionally charged, just because we care for Jack at this point. I do like that they took Jack's power away. Even having Castiel around is too much of a crutch for the series, so if Jack is to stay, he needs to be a person, not a super powerful being.

And then Dean saying yes to Michael after all these years... it was cool. However, it led to some of the more horrifically corny visuals to ever grace this show. The flying battle was bad. It was like watching a B-Movie from the 80's, to the point where I kinda think that they might have been riffing that style on purpose (especially with the freeze-frame at the end of the episode).

I'm sure I'm supposed to be wondering how they will get Dean out of this, but I was just left screaming at my TV "Boot him! Why are you whining about having a deal instead of saying no?!"

But whatevs.

So yeah... I don't know. The episode wasn't horrible. The whole arc wasn't horrible. It just didn't feel like it was taking place on the right show for me.


And lest I forget, I am going to ding Supernatural for doing something that I've bashed the Arrowverse for. No special treatment.

TRUMP IS NOT PRESIDENT IN THE SUPERNATURAL UNIVERSE!!!!!!!!! Watch your own damn show, people!!! Jack is genetically the damn president's son! Yes, it was a stupid idea, but you did it anyway. Now you don't get to make Trump jokes!

Please be informed that the political, scientific, sociological, economic and legal views expressed in Informant's posts and social media accounts do not reflect any consensus of Sliders.tv.

Re: Supernatural

I enjoyed the season, but the finale was a mess.  Between who they killed off, and what not, ehhhh, I don't get it.  Whatever.

Re: Supernatural

Yeah, I don't get a lot of the decisions that went into the finale. I could do without bringing over the doubles of people that we know. It doesn't feel like Bobby, so I don't see the purpose in bringing him back to the show as anything more than a quick nod. Having him on the show for keeps will feel weird, because it's Jim Beaver, but not really Bobby. And the longer they keep him around, the more questions will pop up about how the whole alternate history thing works on the show.

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Re: Supernatural

Informant wrote:

Dean saying yes to Michael after all these years... it was cool. However, it led to some of the more horrifically corny visuals to ever grace this show. The flying battle was bad. It was like watching a B-Movie from the 80's, to the point where I kinda think that they might have been riffing that style on purpose (especially with the freeze-frame at the end of the episode).

I've always found Informant to be one of the most visually illiterate people in fandom -- so when even he notices problems in the cinematography, choreography, blocking, composition and editing on SUPERNATURAL and AGENTS OF SHIELD, you know something's gone really, really, really wrong with the production.

Re: Supernatural

Should I take offense at that comment?

I just think that Chuck managed to remain enjoyable despite their limitations!

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Re: Supernatural

SUPERNATURAL and AGENTS OF SHIELD should definitely take heed of how dire their situations have become.

Re: Supernatural

Two quick notes:

1. I don't really understand what they're doing with Michael.  Is he evil or is he not?  Because after trying to defeat Michael the whole season, the idea of them just letting him be the hero at the end was really strange.  I also don't really understand why Michael is evil in the Apocalypse World or what he was doing.  Is there no Chuck in the other world?  Did Michael kill Chuck?  Because Chuck was around during the Michael/Lucifer fight in the main world, and he was actively working to help the brothers. 

We had that alternate apocalypse world in season 5, but that was based on Lucifer winning.

2. There's a small chance that there was an election in 2017 that Trump could've won.  I don't know if they've ever specifically said that elections happened at the same time in their world and our world, but on shows like the West Wing, they've made little explanations for why the elections are off.  So maybe there was an election between Jack's birth and the finale. 

But it was a lazy joke that should've been caught.

Re: Supernatural

Yeah, the alternate history doesn't really hold up as a version of the story that we know. Without Sam and Dean, how did Lucifer go free? How did Michael and Lucifer face off? Why wouldn't Charlie immediately get killed? The list goes on.

Probably best to not think about it. smile

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Re: Supernatural

I mean I'd love to dismiss it, but now it's such a big part of the show.  What's crazy is that it didn't even have to go that route.  If they wanted an alternate universe where the apocalypse happened in season 5....I think it's a great idea.  It really ties into the mythology of the show, and I sorta like how they can bring back gritty versions of everyone.

But it seems like a simple move to make.  Lucifer won.  He wipes out humanity because he's evil.  Or if you want to do the Michael thing....no one won.  The world is destroyed because Lucifer and Michael have been fighting for 8 years and don't care about collateral damage.  Michael can be a little twisted because of how long he's been at war, but he shouldn't just be executing people for no reason.

Instead of bringing back Gabriel, bring back Cage Michael.  He'd be just as twisted, and they could rehabilitate him.  And when you have Dean say yes to Cage Michael, you'd get a cool Sam/Dean dynamic because Cage Michael has been trapped with Sam in the Cage before.  They have actual history together.

They just didn't think Apocalypse World through at all.

Re: Supernatural

Slider_Quinn21 wrote:

Wayward Sisters apparently didn't get picked up.  I enjoyed the little backdoor pilot they did.  Sad it won't get a chance to go.

Well, I can report some pseudo-news on this: some fans are doing a virtual season one of WAYWARD SISTERS and I have been invited to write Episode 5 of this series. It seems I will be writing the meta episode where Donna and Claire are investigating sightings of a monster made of typography that's targeting a group of fans hosting a fanfic reading.

Transmodiar banned me from writing any more fanfic after SLIDERS REBORN, but... my niece is really upset about WAYWARD SISTERS not getting picked up and I have to do this for her. You understand. (It's just going to be a short novella.)

Re: Supernatural

That'll be cool!  Let us know when it's posted!

In Supernatural news, the series order for next season is only 20 episodes.

Re: Supernatural

ireactions wrote:

Transmodiar banned me from writing any more fanfic after SLIDERS REBORN, but... my niece is really upset about WAYWARD SISTERS not getting picked up and I have to do this for her. You understand. (It's just going to be a short novella.)

Write all the fanfic you want, dude! Don't let me deprive the world and your "niece" the glory of a fanfic season of stories for a television series that never got past the pilot stage. smile

Earth Prime | The Definitive Source for Sliders™

Re: Supernatural

Transmodiar said that he would have to hate me on a physical level if I wrote any more fanfic. But I won't be spending much time writing this fanfic. Because I *can't* -- a writer dropped out and I've been asked to meet a deadline so tight that I have to write a beat sheet tomorrow and submit the draft the day after.

Due to this absurd timetable, I told the editor that I couldn't write prose, not even for a short novella -- instead, I would write it in the form of an in-universe document -- a transcript of an audio recording that would consist only of dialogue and sound effects. It'll be like those transcripts of conversations that I'm so fond of posting on this board and it'll let me get away with writing a (very short) script. It's a short audio drama.

Re: Supernatural

Why would there possibly be a deadline for an online continuation of a television series that never went past pilot stage? Talk about putting the cart before the horse!

Earth Prime | The Definitive Source for Sliders™

Re: Supernatural

I have no idea why the deadline is the deadline. All I know is that a WAYWARD SISTERS series would have been a vital platform for women and LGBTQ youth and amended SUPERNATURAL's numerous mis-steps with female characters, that fanfic showrunner Ryah Ignis is possibly the most encouraging editor I have ever worked with and relentlessly enthused by all my weird metatextual craziness to the point of allowing me to write what's essentially a screenplay for what was previously a prose novella format. She gave me some slight parameters, I told her what I could produce within 72 hours that I felt would be a professional and enjoyable product and she not only accepted this but told me how excited she was for such eccentric and bizarre storytelling and I mustn't let her down.

Also, my niece, who obsesses over SUPERNATURAL the way I obsess over SLIDERS, has agreed to rewrite all the dialogue into a pastiche of the actors' performances and I always wanted to work with her.

Re: Supernatural

Well. I turned in my draft. Honestly, this whole experience has made me think that I've been overthinking my stories because less time to write this one forced me to make it all as simple as I possibly could.

Re: Supernatural

So, my script is going to be posted tomorrow. It's been very interesting. Lauren obsesses over SUPERNATURAL the way I obsess over SLIDERS, but to the point of religiously attending SUPERNATURAL conventions. The high point of the last one was apparently this pajama party sleepover event with Kim Rhodes (Jody) and Briana Buckmaster (Donna), both of whom feature in my story, so I asked Lauren to take my draft and rewrite all the dialogue based on her personal interaction with the actresses and their line deliveries and sense of timing. It seemed to go really well; the beta reader said that Jody and Donna sounded just like Jody and Donna... so hopefully, it'll work for everyone else as well or the results will be viewed as an absurd caricature of a caricature which would be instructive as well.

Re: Supernatural

Okay. My Episode 5 is up... https://archiveofourown.org/collections … rd_Project

... and I'm not sure why Episode 4 is late/absent/missing in action while the rushed, cranked-out-in-four-hours Episode 5 made it out ahead of Episode 4 and on time, but the irony is hilarious.

Re: Supernatural

I'm a bit behind on Supernatural. Just watched episode 3 of this season, and I'm confused. First of all, they played Kaia as being more important than she was. The emotion they expressed wasn't warranted for a one-off guest star.

They played Claire's connection to her as being something that really didn't come across at the time at all. And... Did they just gay up Claire in an episode where she didn't even appear?

It's like they kept referencing a totally different show than what I was watching last year.


Anyway, it took me a while to watch this episode and I realized that the excitement just wasn't there. I don't think the Dabb era is working for me. It feels more like Once Upon a Time than Supernatural at times.

I'll still watch, but I'm interested in seeing what the next show runner can do.

Please be informed that the political, scientific, sociological, economic and legal views expressed in Informant's posts and social media accounts do not reflect any consensus of Sliders.tv.

Re: Supernatural

Informant wrote:

I'm a bit behind on Supernatural. Just watched episode 3 of this season, and I'm confused. First of all, they played Kaia as being more important than she was. The emotion they expressed wasn't warranted for a one-off guest star. They played Claire's connection to her as being something that really didn't come across at the time at all. And... Did they just gay up Claire in an episode where she didn't even appear? It's like they kept referencing a totally different show than what I was watching last year.

The actresses were extremely flirtatious throughout the Wayward backdoor pilot episode from their hospital meeting to comparing scars to holding hands. The screenwriter confirmed on Twitter that the Claire/Kaia relationship was intended to be romantic. I'm told that Claire wasn't in this episode because the actress's quote has gone up so the show needs to focus on her whenever she appears to justify her rate.

Re: Supernatural

Maybe I'm just forgetting the backdoor pilot episode, but I have no memory of them being particularly flirty or sexual. Certainly not in any sort of real love. To me, it seemed like every time they referenced what happened in that episode, it was like a weird parallel universe version of what I saw.

I might not have been paying attention during that episode. Like I said, the Dabb era hasn't been drawing my attention as much.

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Re: Supernatural

The same source also tells me that Robert Singer directed last season's finale drunk.

... It would explain the wire fight and that ending freeze frame.

Re: Supernatural

That would explain a lot. I figured that they were going for a 1980s sci-fi/horror movie vibe, but it just looked bad. It was never even a good idea in the 80s.

The Halloween episode was pretty fun, and reminded me why I still watch this show. The arc episodes are a chore to get through, but the monster of the week episodes are great.

It also looked better than other episodes lately. I don't understand why some episodes of Supernatural look and sound like they were filmed by a soap opera crew, on someone's iPhone (usually the arc/mythology episodes), and other episodes look like legit tv show episodes that people care about. Do they alternate crews or something?

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Re: Supernatural

SPOILERS

S
P
O
I
L
E
R
S

I never thought this would happen.

https://tvline.com/2018/12/12/supernatu … -spoilers/

Re: Supernatural

About dang time!

Re: Supernatural

Don't get me wrong, it's always good to see Sid running around -- but I feel like SUPERNATURAL has moved past the need for Jeffrey Dean Morgan and they found a good actor to play the younger version of him. The spirit of John Winchester haunts the show, but given that the character is dead and the leads are perpetually struggling with his legacy, the actor's absence has always made sense.

Re: Supernatural

Conversation with the niece!

IB: "So, something I noticed in the episode with the resurrected zombie boyfriend and the serial killer shopgirl -- "

LAUREN: "Yeah?"

IB: "Well, at two points in the episode, Jack and Dean have a clear line of fire to take Harper the Serial Killer Shopgirl out -- but they don't take it. They're keen to stop the zombie boyfriend, but the direction and the blocking and editing are very careful not to show them being physically aggressive towards a woman."

LAUREN: "Well, yeah."

IB: "And a couple seasons ago -- the British Men of Letters organization turned Sam and Dean's mother into a brainwashed assassin who'd killed any number of Sam and Dean's friends. So when they corner the lady who runs the Men of Letters, Sam should be well within his rights to execute this psychotic murderess -- she's declared honest-to-God, all-out war on hunters which is the moral equivalent of sending a sniper after firemen and paramedics. But Sam waits for the lady to pull her weapon BEFORE he shoots her."

LAUREN: "Yeah, it's totally justifiable -- but the show just doesn't want to show men killing women onscreen. Because even if it's not real, it's still -- it's a really disturbing image in real-world situations because in real life, when men kill women, it's about power and dominance and control and SUPERNATURAL doesn't want to endorse that or have footage for that."

IB: "Well, for the third time -- Harper is a serial killer."

LAUREN: "Oh, like Sam and Dean haven't murdered lots of people."

IB: "Like who!? I mean, there was that lady whose blood Sam drank, but she was possessed by a demon -- and there was the werewolf mercy killing -- "

LAUREN: "How about that Frankenstein family member who got dragged into breaking into the bunker?"

IB: "Oh, that's fine."

LAUREN: "How was that fine!?"

IB: "He was part of a home invasion! I'm sorry, but you invade someone's home, you die. Sam and Dean will never feel safe in the bunker again!"

LAUREN: "Oh, I hate the bunker. Sam and Dean are supposed to be working class heroes; I don't like them being heirs to the Men of Letters legacy."

Re: Supernatural

That's actually an interesting dilemma.

For some reason, now I'm trying to figure out where Dean sits politically. I'm fairly certain Sam would be a progressive liberal, but I'm having trouble with Dean.  I think he'd be a conservative, but he's definitely not a MAGA conservative.  He might be a bit more of a John Kasich republican?

(I don't mean to get this political - Lauren's talk about modern imagery got me to #metoo and wondering how the boys would think about modern topics).

Re: Supernatural

My opinion is that SUPERNATURAL is not the real world and that a planet Earth with monsters and angels and demons roaming the streets, even in secret, would be in a very different political place from our world. Dean has spent most of his life living off the grid; I can't imagine him bothering with politics.

I think trying to figure out if he voted for Trump or Clinton or third party or whatever is searching for something that just doesn't exist -- and honestly, I don't think we should bring it into existence. For all my Views about Informant, I would prefer that Informant could look at Dean and see whatever he needs to see. It's already tough for him when Superman is presented as an alien citizen of the world who was raised by a hologram of Jor-El instead of being Clark Kent raised by Jonathan and Martha Kent in Kansas. I would not wish to add to his burden.

There's also the fact that many, many, many different writers and showrunners have written for Dean and many fans have reacted to Dean differently and created their own Dean.

For example, Lauren's personal vision of Dean: he's bisexual. I cannot see this at all; Dean to me is one of the most hilariously, ridiculously heterosexual men on television and while I don't think he's homophobic, he's averse to homosexuality. It makes him uncomfortable. If he saw two men kissing, he would avert his eyes, apologize for his discomfort, declare he's trying to give them privacy and then say something like, "My problem, not yours. You do you, boys."

I don't really see Dean as a sexual harasser, either. Yes, Dean is very into casual sex, but Dean's attitude to women seems to be to approach with a compliment and a willing smile and then let the woman make the next move or fail to in which case he immediately moves on to another prospect. Dean is also deeply, innately unattracted to women who are unassertive; if a woman didn't seem interested in flirting back with him, Dean would lose interest straightaway. Dean wants women who match his sex drive.

Re: Supernatural

Yeah, I don't think they'd have time for politics.  No matter what's happening in the world, they've always got bigger fish to fry.  Global warming isn't a concern when Michael wants to end the world right now.  That would definitely skew any of their thoughts on any real-world issues, all of which they'd consider to be minor and petty compared to what they're dealing with.

But if I can humor myself for a while, I'm considering a world where Sam and Dean exist but monsters do not.  Sam might've gone to college, but I don't see him as a lawyer.  Honestly, I think he'd probably be better off as a teacher, but I could also see him in medicine of some sort.  I think he'd want to do something where he's helping mold or save lives.  I don't see him in a court room at all.  I could see Sam getting into politics.  Volunteering for people he believes in, trying to stir up support and votes for those people.  I think he'd skew liberal, caring about issues with the planet and animals.

Dean would be mostly apolitical.  But I think he's more resistant to change, and I think he'd lean conservative.  He'd be someone who'd support Republicans but would be sorta lost in modern politics.  I think he'd probably have gone into the army for a stint and then come back to be a police officer or federal agent.  He'd find harmony in the order of that, and he'd live off the thrill of danger and saving lives.

I'm now picturing an alternate world where Sam and Dean both live in a small town in Kansas.  Dean is either the Sheriff or a deputy, and Sam is the medical examiner.  They solve crimes together.

Re: Supernatural

I hate to say it, but this season really isn't working for me at all. The Michael thing feels weak, like they're just trying to think of somewhere to go with it, and at times the show is contradicting what's already been established. The whole idea of the Empty as being not only another afterlife where angels go, but also as an actual being runs counter to what we've seen before. God couldn't assemble an army of archangels to fight Amara because they were dead and he didn't have time to make more. If he could just pop over to the next room and wake them up, why didn't he? Jack is powerful, but not *God* powerful.
And how can there be a backdoor for Michael to use to get into Dean, when he would absolutely need a "Yes" to get into any person, and the slightest "No" after that would keep him out?

Having a 12 year old girl (or however old she is) leading an army of hunters (and by "army", I mean "the few who could fit into the back of the car") was weird. Especially since she's already been established as someone who isn't a great hunter.

None of it is working. And while I still love the stand-alone episodes, they don't even seem to be doing many of them this year. An like Marc Zicree said, when you're focusing only on one arc for the whole season, it's really hard to fix what's broken along the way, and so much of the main arcs are broken at this point. I realized that as I was watching Dean's dream world and I found myself wishing that *that* was the show each week. Winchester's Roadhouse would allow them to work with other hunters and give the actors time off when needed, but it would feel more "Supernatural" than what the bunker has become.

Speaking of which... this place was supposed to be so mystically warded that even an angel couldn't get into it without a key. Now they have more people breaking into it than the Arrowcave.


I don't think that the show is so broken that it can't possibly be fixed. However, I do think that it might be time for the next showrunner to step in. Someone who is a fan of the earlier seasons and wouldn't mind rolling back the style a little bit. Supernatural, at its best, is a road trip story, with brothers in a cool car, shooting up monsters and exploring the rich culture of America through its urban legends and folklore. Right now, the show is suffocating itself with its own mythology. I don't want to see it end like The X-Files.

Please be informed that the political, scientific, sociological, economic and legal views expressed in Informant's posts and social media accounts do not reflect any consensus of Sliders.tv.

Re: Supernatural

Michael remarked on God: "Me and my brother -- my Lucifer -- when we fought in my world, we thought that God would come back. Give us answers: why he'd gone, what we'd done. But instead, you know what happened? Nothing. No God. Nothing. And now -- now that I'm in here -- now I know why. God -- Chuck -- is a writer. And like all writers, he churns out draft after draft. My world, this world -- nothing but failed drafts. And when he realizes that they're flawed, he moves on and tries again. Because he doesn't care! About you, me, anything."

As you, Informant, are a writer, what were your thoughts on Michael's thoughts on Chuck as a writer?

Slider_Quinn21 wrote:

Two quick notes: I don't really understand what they're doing with Michael.  Is he evil or is he not?  Because after trying to defeat Michael the whole season, the idea of them just letting him be the hero at the end was really strange.  I also don't really understand why Michael is evil in the Apocalypse World or what he was doing.  Is there no Chuck in the other world?  Did Michael kill Chuck?  Because Chuck was around during the Michael/Lucifer fight in the main world, and he was actively working to help the brothers.  We had that alternate apocalypse world in season 5, but that was based on Lucifer winning.

How do you feel about this plot point now as addressed by Michael?

Re: Supernatural

I think Michael's comments were similar to what we've heard before, from many other characters. And it makes a certain amount of sense to the characters, but we have seen God/Chuck step in pretty often.

One of the show's themes is free will. You can't have both free will, and God making every decision for us. He can tell us not to eat the fruit, but if He makes it impossible for us to eat the fruit, we don't have free will. The fact that Chuck stepped in so many times on the show just tells us that he loves his world/people too much to sit back and watch them destroy themselves.

God/Chuck is an interesting character, filled with contradictions and layers that ultimately make sense for the character. But I disagree with Michael's theory that Chuck keeps scratching drafts and starting over. If that were true, he wouldn't exist. Michael is avoiding the responsibility of his own actions. Maybe Chuck decided to give the angels a chance to run their own world, and what it became was what they made it.

As a writer, I let my characters run loose at times, but they don't have free will. If they did, they'd probably kill me.

Please be informed that the political, scientific, sociological, economic and legal views expressed in Informant's posts and social media accounts do not reflect any consensus of Sliders.tv.

Re: Supernatural

ireactions wrote:

How do you feel about this plot point now as addressed by Michael?

It makes some sense.  It does feel sorta Chuck-like of him to let them try it their way, but I also sorta agree with Informant that, eventually, he'd step in and try to get things back on whatever version of track he believes in.

I guess I can answer that question with another question - is there only one Chuck?  If so, I think I completely understand where Michael is coming from.  Every alternate world is Chuck trying something else.  In our world, he protects Sam and Dean, and they saved the day.  In Michael's world, he wins and gets to do things his way.  In that case, Lucifer has a world where he won, there's probably a world where they destroyed each other, there's one where Gabriel saves the day, or Raphael, or maybe other scenarios.  Other endings.  He's a writer, and he's experimenting with different ways his story can end.

In that case, Michael sorta has a point.  Because we're cool writing fanfics where Maggie dies a heroic (and in some cases, very non-heroic) death, but none of us want Kari Wuhrer to actually die or suffer.  When Chuck writes something, living creatures die and suffer.  Free will or not, that's messed up.

It's like the plot of Cabin in the Woods or movies like that.  Michael feels like he's doing something he's supposed to do and living a normal life, but he's actually the part of some diabolical scheme.  He could easily be the hero of a story we're sympathetic with.  Instead of being Truman Burbank and giving Christof the metaphorical finger, he goes on a 3rd act rampage and gets his pound of flesh for messing with his life.

If there's one Chuck, I think it says a lot about the show as a whole.  It might also explain where Chuck keeps going.  He's got a lot of pots boiling, and he's really only able to deal with one at a time.

I think it's a satisfactory answer.

Re: Supernatural

Supernatural renewed for Season 15.

Ten seasons post one of the best series finales ever big_smile

Re: Supernatural

I haven't loved the Nick storyline, but I do feel like there was a missed opportunity for some cool stuff.  So Nick's official reason that he gave police was that he was possessed by the Devil.  People laugh at him like "ha ha, you're crazy"

But the Devil is real on the show.  Vampires are real.  Werewolves are real.  There's evidence.  It can be proven.

I know the show has been pretty consistent about "no one is ever going to find out that Monsters are real on any sort of big scale."  But is that something the show should really stick to?  Do we think it would kill the show from a narrative perspective if Nick took his case public.  Prove the monsters are real, and prove the Devil is/was real.  Prove it all without a shadow of a doubt.

Would that kill the narrative?  Or would it be interesting to see Sam and Dean fight monsters when people know they're out there?  Maybe even deputized as agents in some sort of official agency/business.  Men of Letters, Inc. or the Supernatural version of the X-Files.

Speaking of that, and tied into the post I just made about Arrow.....are Sam and Dean still officially dead?  If Nick were to try to flip and give up Sam and Dean, who faked their deaths, could that have been a storyline?  That's another thing the show doesn't really want to touch.