Re: DC Superheroes in Film (Theatrical and Streaming)

Yeah but that's good and well, but what if both Joker scripts are great?  Do you go with the one that is better and scrap the other?  Do you throw out the Leto version because there's a great Scorcese version?

It's cool that DC is being very open with their ideas, but they need to get some forward momentum.  Aquaman is the only film they have scheduled. It comes out in six months and there's very little buzz about it*.  I even forgot it was coming out and thought Shazam was next.

* I'm actually really excited about it, but because there's been no advanced marketing for it so far, I forgot it was happening.

Then there's Shazam and Wonder Woman 2 in 2019.  Both projects are coming along nicely, but Shazam might not be connected to the overall DCEU and WW2 takes place in the 80s.  Then things get really hazy.  There's potentially a Cyborg movie and potentially a Green Lantern Corps movie - those are the only movies that have confirmed release dates but both are questionable.

Then there's the staggering list of movies that may or may not be in development.

Man of Steel 2
Suicide Squad 2
The Batman
80s Joker prequel
Leto Joker sequel
Gotham City Sirens
Birds of Prey
Harley Quinn solo film
Flashpoint
Justice League Dark
Booster Gold / Blue Beetle
Batgirl
New Gods
Nightwing

I know there's a chance that we'll get none of these movies, and it'd be really cool if we could get all of these to work out.  But it just seems like an overwhelming list of movies that doesn't even include Justice League 2. 

So there's a chance that the DCEU could go over a year without any movies and then have 10 movies in 2020 smile

Re: DC Superheroes in Film (Theatrical and Streaming)

Suicide Squad 2 is supposed to start filming within the next year, I think. I think that's further along than it seems. These movies just don't have a ton of talk around them. The average person probably doesn't even know that Shazam is coming (and I do believe that it is part of the DCEU, but I could be wrong). It is a very different way of going about it, since we know every Marvel movie that will be released ten years in advance, but it's probably smarter. The DCEU won't get good press, so why give people that much longer to write articles about how doomed they are?

Please be informed that the political, scientific, sociological, economic and legal views expressed in Informant's posts and social media accounts do not reflect any consensus of Sliders.tv.

Re: DC Superheroes in Film (Theatrical and Streaming)

Shazam is definitely included in the DCEU but it might not have any *outright* connections.  I know there was talk of Henry Cavill appearing in it, but that was back when the Rock was still going to be in it (now his movie, which I didn't even mention) is a solo film too.

Re: DC Superheroes in Film (Theatrical and Streaming)

Slider_Quinn21 wrote:

Maybe Cavill's character is undercover.  Maybe the mustache plays some part.  Or maybe they did just want to make Cavill less pretty.  Either way, it just seems like an odd choice for Cavill to agree to....or an odd decision to force on him.  It was either petty on Paramount, naive of Cavill, or just a bizarre set of circumstances.

Christopher McQuarrie, director of MISSION IMPOSSIBLE V and VI, doesn't really like computer generated imagery when it's central. Both he and Tom Cruise prefer practical effects as much as possible.

In M:I2 (directed by John Woo), when Cruise had a hunting knife thrust within a few centimetres of his eye, that blade was a real weapon with the actor stabbing towards Cruise's face at full force at Cruise's insistence -- with the cable holding the knife back painted out in post. In M:I5 (which McQuarrie did direct), when Cruise is running across the wing of a plane and hanging onto its side as it takes off or when he's performing motorcycle students or diving into pools, he's doing it for real -- although other cars and harnesses and rigs are removed and the backgrounds are altered.

There's a genuine sense of reality in the McQuarrie's approach: there's wind blowing into Cruise's eyes when he dives off a building and his body is really coiled to anticipate the hundred-foot drop and you can see Cruise's terror and determination as he performs jumps and takes punches and handles falls as Ethan Hunt, a human crash dummy of a secret agent. And Cavill would be made to do the same things.

I don't think McQuarrie would be happy having one of his actors perform such scenes with a CG mustache; it would affect what parts of the actor's face are visible and the actor would adjust his expressions accordingly. I don't think McQuarrie would want a CG creation at the center of Henry Cavill's shots when he wants the actor to control the physicality and tone of the performance, not a special effects artist in a computer lab. CG is for adjustments, not centerpieces, in McQuarrie's world.

McQuarrie will accept CGI for painting out cars, cleaning up backgrounds, removing safety gear, changing a pool into a lake, etc., but he wants his actors to be reacting and performing according to as much physical reality as he can offer and a CG mustache is the antithesis of McQuarrie's aesthetic.

McQuarrie would also not be happy having an actor film chase sequences and fight scenes with a fake mustache that would need to be reglued, rearranged, realigned and restyled for every single shot. "That's just not Mission," he would probably say.

As for why the character had to have a mustache, well -- Cavill has a friendly face, he's playing a deadly assassin who has no issue with casualties in contrast to Ethan Hunt's decidedly non-lethal approach. A mustache makes Cavill look more sinister, it's part of the look that McQuarrie designed for this role and McQuarrie was responsible for MISSION: IMPOSSIBLE - FALLOUT, not JUSTICE LEAGUE.

Re: DC Superheroes in Film (Theatrical and Streaming)

For the record, I don't blame McQuarrie or Paramount for any of the mustache saga.  They signed an actor to play a role, he agreed, and they agreed on an aesthetic.  I thought it was crazy that WB would even ask them to alter their movie for their own.

Looking forward to MI:6 as well.

Re: DC Superheroes in Film (Theatrical and Streaming)

I don't think it is really the fault of either studio or the actor. The person directing those shots should have made adjustments for the situation. If it's raining, you adjust. If the sun is shining into the camera, you adjust. If you can't get your actor back at all, you adjust. The director has to make a million adjustments as he goes along, which is why a good director is a good leader who can make those changes.

This was Whedon, guys. He is stubborn and didn't roll with the punches at all. Honestly, they probably would have been better off letting the DP direct the reshoots (since this person would have worked closely with Snyder on designing the look of the movie), but they brought someone in who was supposed to alter the bones of the movie, yet wasn't up for the task. That part is Warner's fault.

I still like the movie. The mustache doesn't really bother me too much. But still, if it's an issue, it is Whedon who should carry that blame.

Please be informed that the political, scientific, sociological, economic and legal views expressed in Informant's posts and social media accounts do not reflect any consensus of Sliders.tv.

Re: DC Superheroes in Film (Theatrical and Streaming)

Again, it didn't really affect my opinion of the movie - if no one had said anything, I might've thought a couple of shots looked a little funny, but I don't think it's that big of a deal.

What's crazy is that, depending on how much of the Superman stuff they reshot, they could've easily worked a beard into his character (in some of the Mission Impossible trailers, it looks Cavill has a beard too).  Whether or not Clark was really dead or in a comic-accurate "healing coma" - he might've had some beard growth.  It isn't even out of canon in this series because Clark's had a beard before.

The whole thing is more just funny to me because someone probably got paid a decent amount of money to CGI a beard off someone.  They did a good job on it....the situation itself is just funny to me.

Re: DC Superheroes in Film (Theatrical and Streaming)

http://www.superherohype.com/news/41763 … n#/slide/1

In very unsurprising news, Steve Trevor is back.

Re: DC Superheroes in Film (Theatrical and Streaming)

Wasn't this confirmed just after the first move came out?

Either way, I'm intrigued by the whole setup for the new movie. Glad that they didn't jump to the present, but I still feel like they could have kept Steve alive and allowed Diana to have a life with him, rather than kill him off.

Of all the DCEU movies, Wonder Woman gets the most praise, but I think it's the most unfocused and flawed of the bunch. It's my least favorite of the franchise, but I'm still looking forward to seeing the sequel.

Please be informed that the political, scientific, sociological, economic and legal views expressed in Informant's posts and social media accounts do not reflect any consensus of Sliders.tv.

Re: DC Superheroes in Film (Theatrical and Streaming)

Two fun DC nuggets that came out this week.

1. Remember the "Unite the Seven" poster that came out during the promotional period of Batman v. Superman with Aquaman?  For some reason, this poster really bothered people because 1) there were no subsequent posters that tied in (nothing for Flash or Cyborg or Wonder Woman, or even anything that related to Batman or Superman) 2) it didn't make any sense - there's only six Justice Leaguers, even when you include Superman (who wasn't really part of the uniting process).

Well, they've come out with an explanation that fits - it's technically a poster for the Aquaman movie (or, at least, the Aquaman character).  It's to unite the seven underwater kingdoms.  It feels like quite the retrofit, but as I said, it does fit.

2. Matt Reeves says that the first draft of his Batman movie is done.  But I felt like he already had a first draft done.  Or did he only re-write the Affleck draft?  This movie seems like it's a bit of a mess, but with the one-off movies that DC is doing (Joker), I actually think it'd fit in nicely.

*******

Comic-Con news.

1. I'm probably most excited about the Aquaman movie, but I did feel like the trailer was pretty paint-by-numbers.  I'm interested to know how it ties in with what we saw in Justice League.

2. The Shazam trailer was pretty entertaining, and I think it'll be like another Suicide Squad - playing on the perimeter of the DCEU.  After a lighter-toned Justice League movie, I think some of the goofiness of this character fits.  And there's rumors of a Superman cameo, which I think would fit right in.

Re: DC Superheroes in Film (Theatrical and Streaming)

The "Unite the Seven" thing... I feel like that was meant to be part of a different plan at the time, but Warner Bros keeps meddling and throwing off the plan, so now it means Aquaman. Which is fine. I don't dislike the Warner/DC movies. I just think that there are people at Warner who see something like Rotten Tomatoes and panic, feeling like they need to change something, when they really just need to let the plan play out the way it was intended. They don't get that comic book fans will usually be divided one way or the other, and the more memorable comic book stories are the ones that fans tend to argue about the most.

It's frustrating to me, even just from a writing perspective. It stresses me out to have a story changed midway through its release (Snyder had an arc planned and it was approved... and then altered)

It hasn't been a complete disaster, but Warner Bros needs to back off and let the DC movie people run themselves. Create a separate studio for them or something.


The Batman movie -
I guess it is what it is. It feels chaotic and troubled to people because we honestly have no idea what's going on behind the scenes or what the product is supposed to look like. Whereas Marvel tells us what their plan is ten years in advance and rarely changes a release date, the DC movies seem to depend on how they develop. It's probably the right way to go about it, but it means that movies feel like they're dangling out in limbo much more than they actually are.



I am looking forward to Aquaman too, but I don't have super high hopes. The character has never been the best DC character, so if they can make a good movie, that will be awesome. However, it's hard to really get into the world of Aquaman from the trailer alone, because it's so alien and so out of context.
What I do know is that a lot of people are still complaining about Jason Momoa playing the part, and how they've changed the style of the character. I really don't care about that.


Shazam's trailer looked a lot better than I expected, actually. It looks fun, in a "Big" sort of way, without looking like a total ripoff. The characters seem to work well. The costume looks pretty good. We didn't get much in regards to the actual plot/threat, but what we did see was pretty nice.




Changing topics back to an old classic...


With updates on all of the DC movies, the press has been talking about the franchise again. What I find annoying is how they're retconning history in ways that the press always seems to do with everything. They just drop little comments in matter-of-fact ways, as though they're common facts that we all know, and then base their whole opinion around those "facts" which aren't really facts.

Two examples that you can keep your eyes peeled for:

1. I saw one article casually refer to Justice League as an "even bigger bomb than Suicide Squad", followed by some comment like "Yeesh" or something like that.

Except, Suicide Squad wasn't a bomb. At all. It actually performed better than most people (or, at least myself) expected. To compare, Guardians of the Galaxy had a similar budget and came out around the same time. Guardians of the Galaxy (a much more kid-friendly movie with talking animals, etc) made  $333,176,600    in the US and $440,152,029 internationally. It totaled  $773,328,629, which is indeed more than Suicide Squad made.

Suicide Squad made $325,100,054 in the US, and  $421,746,840 internationally. It totaled $746,846,894.

All things considered (I don't think many parents took their kids to see Suicide Squad. Even talking about the title of the movie with my nephews made me feel like I needed to have a "Thirteen Reasons Why" type disclaimer before our chat), Suicide Squad is pretty well domestically. Internationally, that number is more impressive than Guardians though. Suicide Squad wasn't released in one of the biggest markets: China.

In China, Guardians made $86,346,366. Had Suicide Squad competed in that market, their overall profits would most likely be higher than Guardians.

I'm not putting the movies in competition with each other. Obviously, they are for different audiences. What I'm saying is, Suicide Squad was not a bomb by any measure. Justice League under-performed. It wasn't totally surprising with the chaos behind the scenes, the press attacking the movie before it even finished production and the studio apparently having no idea what to do with their properties. But still, I wouldn't call it a "bomb". A bomb doesn't make hundred of millions of dollars in profits. A bomb loses money.



2. I've noticed that most articles have stopped mentioning why Zack Snyder left Justice League. A lot of articles simply say that Snyder left the movie. A lot say that the studio replaced Snyder. Most articles make it sound like Snyder was fired because the studio didn't like him. It's become pretty rare to see an article acknowledge that Snyder left because of a seriously horrible tragedy within his family. This is just dishonest reporting, and it's a symptom of a much larger problem with big media outlets.



The one upside to all of this is that we probably won't see the Carrie Kelly Robin on screen. I'm not a fan, and we haven't even gotten a proper normal Robin on screen yet. I see no reason to skip over Dick, Jason, Tim and Damian.

Please be informed that the political, scientific, sociological, economic and legal views expressed in Informant's posts and social media accounts do not reflect any consensus of Sliders.tv.

Re: DC Superheroes in Film (Theatrical and Streaming)

One note before I get quotey - We didn't skip over Dick because he's dead (at least, according to Snyder - https://movieweb.com/batman-v-superman- … -confirms/ ).  Maybe Reeves' movie will explore that a bit, or maybe it won't be in continuity.  All Reeves has said is that it isn't Year One.

I guess it is what it is. It feels chaotic and troubled to people because we honestly have no idea what's going on behind the scenes or what the product is supposed to look like. Whereas Marvel tells us what their plan is ten years in advance and rarely changes a release date, the DC movies seem to depend on how they develop. It's probably the right way to go about it, but it means that movies feel like they're dangling out in limbo much more than they actually are.

Oh, I get that it's a process.  The only thing that surprised me was the whole "first draft" thing.  I get that movies are written and re-written, but a first draft is a first draft.  There was at least one first draft because it was written by Affleck.  Then, I swear, Reeves went to work re-writing that.  I get that Reeves might have started completely over from scratch and this is a new "first draft" but that just surprised me.

I've noticed that most articles have stopped mentioning why Zack Snyder left Justice League. A lot of articles simply say that Snyder left the movie. A lot say that the studio replaced Snyder. Most articles make it sound like Snyder was fired because the studio didn't like him. It's become pretty rare to see an article acknowledge that Snyder left because of a seriously horrible tragedy within his family. This is just dishonest reporting, and it's a symptom of a much larger problem with big media outlets.

Well, the common theory is that Snyder was fired, and they (either the studio or a combination of the studio and Snyder) used the tragedy to cover to avoid the "bad press" of Snyder being fired because they didn't like his vision.  It's a bit irresponsible, but I think most comic book movie sites are just cutting to the chase.  Because there were rumors that Snyder was in trouble before the tragedy, and it makes sense that both parties would be happy to walk away from each other.  And Snyder's activity on social media shows a bit that he's not super pleased with them, meaning there was a lot of stuff going on in the background to indicate that the split was more than it was.

I don't dislike the Warner/DC movies. I just think that there are people at Warner who see something like Rotten Tomatoes and panic, feeling like they need to change something, when they really just need to let the plan play out the way it was intended.

WB/DC made a lot of mistakes along the way.  The first was to try and go head to head with Marvel at a bad time.  Man of Steel came out a month after Iron Man 3.  At that time, Marvel was just about to hit their stride - Phase 2 was just beginning after the mixed bag that was Phase One (I maintain that, outside of the first Iron Man and the fun of Avengers, Phase One is easily the worst, critically and commercially).

If DC had taken things slowly, like Marvel did, they could've been forgiven.  With the exception of Iron Man, people generally love Marvel sequels better than the originals.  Setting up the world is the hard part - playing in the world is easy.

And I'm not even talking about solo films.  I'm just talking about making mistakes.  The first Marvel film is generally considered one of the best MCU films, but the 2nd film was the Incredible Hulk, a movie where the main character was recast and the movie has been all-but-forgotten.  People hate Iron Man 2.  Thor has bleached eyebrows in the first movie.  The First Avenger is "a trailer for the Avengers"

The problem was that, in between Man of Steel and BvS, Marvel started hitting home runs.  Captain America: the Winter Soldier was a critical and financial success.  People went crazy for it, and it's definitely considered one of the best MCU films.  They hit another home run with Guardians of the Galaxy, a quirky and fun movie that surprised everyone.  Then came Age of Ultron, a movie that people generally dislike, but it was the *second* Avengers movie.

And instead of taking their time and building their universe, DC tried to catch up.  They could've released another solo film - maybe hire Affleck to do his Batman solo film before jumping into a shared universe.  Maybe the Affleck Batman movie ends with the battle in Metropolis, leaving a huge tease to Batman facing off against Superman.  Maybe you go Wonder Woman first.  Or maybe you do a Man of Steel 2.

The problem is that you jumped right into a movie that was divisive.  And I don't even mean based on reactions - I mean literally divisive - you have Batman against Superman.  And like with any battle, people are going to pick sides.

It was compared, quite unfairly, to Civil War.  Because there was a lot more nuance, from the audience, in Civil War.  Love him or hate him, we'd cheered for Tony Stark.  Boring or not, we'd cheered for Steve Rogers.  And forgettable or not, we understood all the side characters on the Tony vs. Steve fight.

With jumping right into BvS, you're forcing fans to choose between them.  And while most fans know Downey as Iron Man and Evans as Captain America, Batman and Superman are timeless.  You're not only having Cavill vs. Affleck, you're having Bale and Keaton vs. Christopher Reeve.  These characters mean something different to everyone.  And to get two good guys to fight, they had to make the other look a little sinister, screwing with the way we see the characters.

Batman has to be legitimately dangerous for Superman to treat him like any other criminal.  So Batman has to casually kill and brand people.  Superman has to be a legitimate threat to humanity for Batman to want to eliminate him.  So Superman is cold and alien whenever he's in public.  You have the World's Greatest Detective and *two* great Daily Planet reporters, and neither does enough investigation to see that both guys are, generally, pretty good.

I mentioned the Affleck solo film that ends in Metropolis.  Maybe it shows how tired Batman is.  Maybe it's one last hurrah for him - he's either sufficiently cleaned up Gotham or he's about to give up.  And Metropolis shows him that he has one more fight.  But Man of Steel could've been Superman's set up.  Maybe Superman faces off against someone like Parasite, and that fight takes him to Gotham.  A B-story could be Clark or Lois looking into this mysterious Batman.  He started off a noble and virtuous vigilante, but now something is happening to him.  Whenever Clark gets close enough, he's forced back.  The investigation doesn't end - Superman is still suspicious.

If you do stuff like this, you spend an entire movie inside the character's mind - and you can understand his viewpoint.

The other issue with BvS is that it felt so much like a catch-up.  It's the second movie in the franchise, and here's a Batman solo movie blended into a Man of Steel sequel.  And Wonder Woman is in it!  And Flash!  Aquaman!  Cyborg!  Doomsday!

It felt like an attempt to do Marvel Phase One in one movie.  Thor and Hulk and Captain America solo films were lazy so we'll just throw in bits and pieces of Wonder Woman/Aquaman/Cyborg/Flash and pretend that they were solo films that you saw and forgot about.  It's five films in one, and that's why it felt so overloaded to some.

If you take your time and make some of these movies, I think you give the audience a chance to warm up to your vision.   Like I said, make your Batfleck movie.  Make Man of Steel 2.  Make Wonder Woman.  If you want to grow the universe with each movie, do that.  There's ways to bring Aquaman or Atlantis or Atlanteans in your Wonder Woman movie like you had with the Flash cameo in Suicide Squad.  Cyborg could easily be in a Man of Steel sequel.  Batfleck could connect to Suicide Squad.

And if you want to move from Batman to Superman, don't make them immediately fight.  Have them team up but not entirely trust each other.  Or have them cross paths but not meet.  Let us meet the characters before we're forced to root against them.  Take things slowly.

It's why Marvel can make 20 films in 10 years and it felt fresh, and why DC can only make a handful in half the time and feel bloated.

Re: DC Superheroes in Film (Theatrical and Streaming)

I obviously disagree, but I won't rehash the entire conversation that we've had a million times. I think the only thing plaguing the DC movies is that Disney made the Marvel movies to kinda-sorta appeal to everyone in some way, to make as much money as they can (it's the Disney way), while DC played to a narrower audience. Yet they're being compared as the same thing, because they're both "comic book" franchises.

I don't view the DC movies through the lens of how it compares to Marvel or how Marvel approached their movies. There are a million ways in which we can't compare the two franchises.

I think Warner Bros was probably looking at the MCU more than the people actually making the DC movies were. The problem is that there seems to be a constant tug of war within Warner. They're not battling Marvel, they're battling themselves. Justice League under performed because someone at Warner Bros didn't get it, and panicked. This isn't unique to comic book movies. Most horror movies today aren't remotely scary, because studios believe that we need to see big spectacles in order to be scared. The opposite is actually true.

Hollywood isn't about art or artists. Ultimately, this is why so many (the majority, really) of their movies fail to connect with the audience in any significant way. Even when we see a movie that we like, we usually forget about it an hour later.



As for Snyder, I think there are a lot of people who think that they know more than they do, because of all of the things that they've read in clearly-biased articles. I do think that there was probably tension between Snyder and the studio, for the reasons that I gave above, but actual news articles have no business taking their own opinions and internet gossip, and publishing it as news.

If Snyder was in a constant battle with the studio to make the movie that he wanted to make, there is a very, very good chance that he just stopped caring about that fight once his daughter died. That fight with the studio isn't uncommon. Every director probably does it. We don't know what that struggle looked like with Justice League, and it's unfair to speculate about something that we don't really know.

If Snyder was fired before his daughter died, I think we would have known about it before his daughter died (unless the studio somehow knew that they'd have this huge excuse to use). If he was fired after his daughter died, it was most likely because he just didn't care enough to fight them anymore.

Please be informed that the political, scientific, sociological, economic and legal views expressed in Informant's posts and social media accounts do not reflect any consensus of Sliders.tv.

Re: DC Superheroes in Film (Theatrical and Streaming)

Well, it's one thing to say that Marvel is Disney and is going after a broader audience, but I really think that only applies to kids.  The days of comic book movies only going after comic book audiences is sorta over.  It started with Spider-Man, continued through with the Dark Knight, and Marvel has really picked up the torch and ran with it.  People that don't love comic book movies love Marvel movies, and it's not just kids.  Kids help, obviously, because it's a whole segment of an audience, and kids see movies multiple times (and come with parents/guardians that pay to see the movie multiple times too).

DC might not be trying to reach the kid audience, but they can still reach a broader audience.  And that's why I think the Marvel/DC conversations are relevant.  But it's also why the DC/Dark Universe conversations are relevant and the DC/Monsterverse conversations are relevant.  These are big studio, shared universe movies that don't exist in a bubble.

It's easy to call DC a bit of a financial mixed bag.

But it's first movie was successful enough to actually launch a series (The Mummy / Dark Universe)
It's done a good-enough job of linking the universe to feel wholly connected (Godzilla / Monsterverse)
It still feels fresh/fun after many movies (Pirates of the Caribbean franchise, Transformers franchise, etc)

Marvel is the gold standard for shared universes, but DC isn't far behind.

DC is actually doing what I'm talking about now.  They rushed in with the "Superman Trilogy" of Snyder films, but the movies they're talking about now are the smaller movies that are allowed to play in the sandbox.  Wonder Woman was a self-contained movie.  The sequel looks the same.  Suicide Squad was fun and played around its own world.  Aquaman is expanding it under water.  Shazam is experimenting with magic.  Everything about the Batman seems like it's smaller and lower stakes.  The Joker movie is going to be unique.

These are the movies that are going to build this universe into something where we look forward to team-ups and connections.  And maybe, to that grander audience, Phase One of the DCEU will be just like the Phase One of the MCU - important but not necessarily worth revisiting smile

Re: DC Superheroes in Film (Theatrical and Streaming)

Supergirl movie?

https://deadline.com/2018/08/supergirl- … 202440687/

Looks like WB is back grasping at what they already have instead of moving forward.  If they’re looking for a back door Superman reboot, they should take us to the 30th century Legion of Super-Heroes and look back at a new history.  Marvel is owning cosmic at the moment, but Legion gives the opportunity to play with new ground in time travel - especially if the Time Trapper is involved.

It would also serve to beat Marvel to the punch for once instead of chasing behind them.  Now that Disney has Fox, they’ve got the rights back to Fantastic Four and Kang the Conqueror.  You can bet time travel is about to be a big component in Marvel movies.

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Well, as we've discussed, WB is throwing a lot of darts on the board and seeing what sticks.  Which, and I agree with Informant here, is a good strategy.  Get a couple dozen scripts, and produce the best ones.  Maybe they'll be big ones (Man of Steel 2, Flashpoint, etc), maybe they'll be smaller (Nightwing, Blue Beetle, New Gods, etc), or maybe they'll be out of continuity (Joker, maybe the Batman, etc).  At the end of the day, I'm interested in more good comic book movies, and this is definitely more "creative pool" than any of the other shared universes.

I think this is what really bugs me about the way DC has handled things so far.  I think DC probably could've done a bigger, badder version of what Marvel did.  Not only should they have done it first, but they had all the pieces to do it.  DC has most of the heroes that people recognize and could've done things in a really cool way.  A Superman movie, a Batman movie, a Wonder Woman movie, a Flash movie, a Hawkman/Hawkgirl movie, an Aquaman movie, a Suicide Squad movie, a Teen Titans movie.  Then BAM, Justice League with all these heroes in one movie.

They had all the rights, and name-brand characters.  There's no excuse that we're getting two Ant-Man movies before we get Aquaman *or* Flash.

You'd think it'd be Marvel who, stringing together all the characters they had rights to, throwing together a cinematic universe to try and keep up.  Iron Man (2013), followed by Iron Man and the Hulk (2016), leading to a divisive Avengers movie (2017).

And I should note that there's been a thought to doing Supergirl since the original Man of Steel.  There's an open pod on the Kryptonian ship that was a backdoor way of getting Kara involved.

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The MCU movies have done a good job of marketing to everyone, while not really targeting any one specific audience. They're very accessible to non-comic book fans in the same way that cartoon series are, but they lose many of the layers that comic books build into the worlds and characters. Again, this is like we'd see in a cartoon.

And that's a very valid way to approach it. It has made it seem like everyone loves comic book stories, even though that's not really the case. The "cool kids" are into these movies now, but only as long as they don't get too geeky. The mountain went to Muhammed.

The problem is, Superman and Batman have been telling widely accessible stories on screen for 70+ years. If they release another scene of Clark hopping around in a corn field, the audience will scream. Yet at the same time, that's what the wider audience expects.

With Batman and Superman (and to a lesser extent the Flash), there isn't much chance of pleasing the wide, broad audience in the same way that Marvel does. Some people want a shot-for-shot remake of the Donner movie. Some want to see obscure comic arcs on screen. Most wouldn't recognize the comic book characters and want the cartoon characters. Some loved Bale, while others want Keaton.

DC has a ton of baggage that Marvel doesn't. Marvel can play it safe, but DC needs to change things up. Wonder Woman probably performed the best because most people know the character while not really having any expectations of the movie.

All I know is that when I get into conversations about the DC movies, people usually hate the movies because "that's not my Superman." He emotes, so he's too emo. He has doubts, so he's cold. He isn't Reeves, because Reeves would never kill Zod (an actual conversation I had, despite my linking to the scene where he kills Zod in Superman II)

It's probably more fair to compare DC movies to Godzilla or Dracula at this point. Or James Bond. Especially with Superman and Batman.

Please be informed that the political, scientific, sociological, economic and legal views expressed in Informant's posts and social media accounts do not reflect any consensus of Sliders.tv.

Re: DC Superheroes in Film (Theatrical and Streaming)

Informant wrote:

All I know is that when I get into conversations about the DC movies, people usually hate the movies because "that's not my Superman." He emotes, so he's too emo. He has doubts, so he's cold. He isn't Reeves, because Reeves would never kill Zod (an actual conversation I had, despite my linking to the scene where he kills Zod in Superman II)

Well, and I think that's another issue with the route that Snyder took with this.  In my opinion, he messed it up a couple of different times but in different ways.

Man of Steel is one of two "solo" movies that the DCEU has done - everything else is an ensemble piece with no clear protagonist.  In that movie, we get a pretty good idea of who Superman is.  There are three moments in that film that really bug people, and I think at least 2/3 of them can be written off.

- Clark kills Zod - this is what bothers people, and I don't get it.  People say that "Clark doesn't kill" but that doesn't really seem to be a guiding principle for him (and doesn't really seem to be an issue for Snyder, as I'll get to later).  Zod was a threat to humanity as a whole, and he had to be dealt with.  Clark tried to reason with him, but it didn't work.  Clark also has a bit of a breakdown after this, implying that he knew it was a bad thing to do, even if it was the right thing to do.

- Clark's fight with Zod leads to collateral damage.  This, again, isn't a problem.  A fight between two gods would result in collateral damage.  The one thing I can point to is that Clark doesn't seem overly concerned with the damage, either in Smallville or Metropolis.  If Metropolis were the only fight, I could see it getting out of hand.  But after essentially destroying Smallville (and that's something people don't usually point out), he should've been more prepared to *try* to draw the fight away from the city.  He knows the damage that a fight like that would cost, and I wish there were a line in the movie where he tries and Zod won't let him.  At the end of the day, this doesn't bother me as much - what bothers me is the way the *films* handle it, and that's not on Clark.

- Clark lets his father die.  This is the biggest "that's not my Superman" argument in my opinion.  Clark is fast enough to save Jonathan without outing himself.  I think it's an incredibly dumb scene that didn't make sense.  I almost understand what they're going for, but the idea of something killing a loved one that Clark can't fight (like the traditional heart attack) is a much better lesson to teach Clark.  Especially because, when Clark revisits Jonathan's lesson from the movie (exposing his secret), there's zero consequences.  So, in my eyes, Jonathan dies for no reason and Clark learns nothing.

If you can forgive that Clark was just doing what his father told him to do (however irresponsible), Clark's characterization in Man of Steel makes sense.  I think Man of Steel is a solid movie that provides a nice introduction to a DC Extended Universe.

The problem comes in BvS.  We've already gone over this ad nauseum, and there's no reason to go line by line again.  The main issue, for me, is that the characterization from Man of Steel doesn't seem to translate to BvS.  Clark from MoS and Superman from BvS seem like two very different characters.  And while Superman is allowed to emote without being emo, Clark's public persona always seems to be scowling or frowning.  It's hard to represent hope when it looks like you're fighting a battle that you're, at best, indifferent to.

I think that's what people liked about Superman in Justice League.  It's the same thing that people liked about Wonder Woman in her three movies - she seems to genuinely enjoy the fight.  She finds joy in defeating the bad guy and saving the innocent.  Clark finds joy in Lois, and he seems to dread every second he's wearing the costume in BvS.

With Batman, Snyder made the opposite mistake.  With no solo film, we don't really know what to make of Batman.  Like Superman, he seems to have no qualms about killing people.  I know that "Batman doesn't kill people" is a rule that doesn't really fit in the movies, but a more apt rule is "Batman doesn't try to kill people."  In BvS, he does seem to go out of his way to kill people, using unnecessary force in situations he has complete control over.  In the chase sequence, he's in an unstoppable tank doing unnecessary damage.  In the warehouse fight, he's being unnecessarily brutal against people that can't compete with him.

In the scenes where we get to look inside Batman's head, there's a clear disagreement from Alfred, but there's never a scene where it's discussed.  And because Alfred has been there the whole time, he's either okay with how Batman now operates, or it's how Batman has always operated.  Either way, it's a departure from what we've seen before.

It comes down to two things for me:

- In BvS, the characterization issues come down to the fact that they lend themselves to the story that Snyder wanted to tell.  If he's going to tell a story where Batman and Superman are both good guys that decide to try and kill each other, then they have to see each other as threats.  Batman has to be a deadly, murderous vigilante who has taken things too far.  Superman has to be a cold, distant alien.

- Snyder himself sees heroism in a very uber-masculine way.  Superman and Batman are both insanely jacked (like Leonidas before them), and they do what's necessary to save the day.  If that means snapping a neck or blowing up a car full of bad guys, so be it.  Superman and Batman don't have "no kill" rules because Snyder thinks they're dumb.  And that's fine - they're his movies.  But I think that's where the criticism comes from.

It's what makes me a little curious about Snyder's original Justice League vision.  From the bits and pieces I've figured out, it would've featured a more troubled/suicidal Victor Stone, and a depressed/alcoholic Arthur Curry.  And from the trailers, it seems like Wonder Woman would've failed to stop the bombs in Paris.  It might've taken BvS' depressing tone and turn it outright nihilistic.

Re: DC Superheroes in Film (Theatrical and Streaming)

The Wonder Woman failure with Paris would have explained her reluctance a little better.  That feeling was obviously already there from where we first met her, but she seemed to get past that by the end of BvS; then suddenly she was back to being reluctant about joining a team.

And what was with the Alfred scene where the green glow is in his glasses?

https://pics.me.me/thumb_herd-daily-some-people-think-this-is-a-reflectionn-from-26291156.png

But who was Alfred talking to?  That whole bit was just dropped.  Did Superman go after Alfred while he was crazed?

Re: DC Superheroes in Film (Theatrical and Streaming)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbQ4sB-mSHc

This was released as a deleted scene.

Re: DC Superheroes in Film (Theatrical and Streaming)

Oddly enough, my brother and I were discussing the Jonathan Kent death scene just a few days ago. We came to the conclusion that it was probably one of the more important scenes for Clark's overall arc, to get him from the life he needed to have as a child (protected, safe, secret) to the life that he has an adult (the hero).

It's a really layered scene, that people don't think about enough.

Jonathan and Martha needed to tell Clark to keep his abilities a secret growing up. They were his parents, and it was their job to protect him above all else. They were terrified of what would happen to him if anyone ever discovered his secret. So they hammered it into his head, over and over again, not to use his abilities.

As we see with the bus crash, that lesson goes against what his parents taught him about being a good person. It's not who they are, and it's not who he is. But they're parents and they're scared. Jonathan's reaction to Clark saving the bus was understandable, because at the moment when Jonathan is having that doubt, the only threat is to Clark, his son. Even Jonathan doesn't believe that Clark should have done nothing, but he's not sure what he should have done, because people saw it. Ultimately, saving the bus is what exposed Clark as an adult.


So, the tornado scene. Clark wants desperately to fight the lessons that he's been taught for as long as he could remember, but he's terrified. I've experienced moments of danger (when younger) that happened in such a way where my body and mind were at odds. I couldn't think or process, so I fell back on what I knew. When Clark does that, he falls back to doing what his father tells him to do (despite having been arguing with his father about this very subject only minutes earlier). Clark is still young, and scared, and his instinct isn't lined up with his teachings.

In that moment, Clark does what his father tells him to do. He plays it safe. He ignores his instinct and everything that he is as a person, and he follows orders. Because he does this, he loses his father. He loses everything that he had been taught, because it didn't matter. He played it safe, and he still lost. He let fear keep him from action that he knew was right, and his father died because of it.

But the scene is more than that. Because despite what Jonathan Kent taught his son out of fear of losing his son, Jonathan sacrificed himself for someone else. His actions and his words didn't line up. Jonathan, the man, was a hero. Jonathan, the father, was just scared. Every day. For decades.


The scream that Clark lets out when Jonathan dies mimics the scream that he lets out when he kills Zod. It's the loss of something vital to the core of who he is. Action or inaction, it didn't matter. He still lost. But without Jonathan's death teaching Clark that lesson, i'm not sure that he could become the hero that he was meant to be. Sure, Clark wanted to do something good, but that was a childish desire to act for his own sake. It was rebellion. At that point, he wasn't capable of being what he needed to become in order to use his powers responsibly and safely.



The scene can probably be discussed and perceived in different ways, if we really wanted to get into it. But I don't think that it was a scene that was ill-conceived or careless. I don't think that it was a scene that could easily be removed from the movie without removing something vital to the arc of Clark's character, as well as Jonathan's. It's easy to say that the scene could just be removed and that it was a bad scene, because most people don't need to character arc at all. A lot of people would be happy with the basic, cotton-candy version of the Superman origin that we've seen a hundred times before. But for this movie, and this Clark's development as a character, I think that losing that scene would do a lot of damage.

Please be informed that the political, scientific, sociological, economic and legal views expressed in Informant's posts and social media accounts do not reflect any consensus of Sliders.tv.

Re: DC Superheroes in Film (Theatrical and Streaming)

Henry Cavill has been fired????  If true, this is totally absurd.

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat- … up-1142306

Re: DC Superheroes in Film (Theatrical and Streaming)

If true, that's upsetting. Mostly because the biggest problem for the DC movies has been Warner Bros, not any of the actors or writers/directors. However... I don't know that I trust the report. It states that they want to shift the focus to a Supergirl movie, and that this would boot Superman because he'd be an infant when she's around. This isn't remotely true. In fact, you'd NEED an established Superman in order to tell a Supergirl story, and telling the story of her before that would mean telling the story of Krypton, without any superpowers at all.

And all of this is assuming that a Supergirl movie happens at all, which is unlikely since there is a Supergirl series, so this would cause the same issues that the Flash movie has had.


Cavill has never struck me as someone who wanted out of the role. His social media posts seem rather enthusiastic about the role, honestly. And his signing on to another project doesn't really impact the Superman productions at all. Especially since it's a Netflix series, so they're probably working around his prior commitments.

According to him, he's probably already contracted for one more movie at least:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-7Nvmd0178


This sounds like more bullsh*t news surrounding the DC movies. They've been unable to confirm that Affleck is leaving, and that rumor is nearly a year old. While I think that there are some major issues with the Warner Bros side of things (mostly, they have no idea what the f--- they're doing with comic book movies and they are constantly panicking and trying to adjust), I think that a lot, lot, lot of the news surrounding the DCEU has been crap. And it seems to be a constant cycle of the same rumors, over and over again, just swapping out names.

Please be informed that the political, scientific, sociological, economic and legal views expressed in Informant's posts and social media accounts do not reflect any consensus of Sliders.tv.

Re: DC Superheroes in Film (Theatrical and Streaming)

The main problem, in regards to the media, is the fact that no one is the face of DC right now.  I hate to keep harking on the Feige thing, but if Feige says something, it's news.  It's official.  At DC, it's the Wild West so rumors are free to run wild and rampant.

With dozens of ideas floating around tied to dozens of creatives, it's hard to tie down what's really happening at DC.  Only a couple of movies are official, and it does seem like DC is in the process of going from more of a shared universe to more of a multiverse concept with a standalone Joker movie and a potentially-standalone Batman movie among the likelier films to get made.

Rumors like this don't happen at Marvel - good or bad.  I think that's because everything flows through Feige.  If he hasn't confirmed it, it's not real.  When there's no one to confirm or deny, anything is potentially true.


*****************************

Speaking of rumors, there was a thought that WB might want Kit Harrington star as Batman.  That's just such a bad idea that I'm hoping Informant's thoughts on the media is 100% right.

Re: DC Superheroes in Film (Theatrical and Streaming)

I do agree that they need to have a dedicated DC person/department. I don't think it would solve all of the problems, but it would probably help with a bunch of them.

The problem is that people expect Marvel-type news. They want a schedule 200 years in advance, and they want to know every detail of every decision made about those movies. The fact is, DC isn't doing that. They can't give us details on when Man of Steel 2 is coming out because they won't know until they have a solid idea of what that movie is going to be. It doesn't mean that it's not happening. It just means that nothing is set right now.

That's great in terms of quality of their products, but it's not great for the news outlets, who will then go on to publish any random crap they hear, because there's no news otherwise.



In general, I'm sick to death of the media. They report bullsh!t, knowing full-well that it's not true, but they also know that people will believe it, because they read it from a "reliable" source. And nobody goes back to check to see if those stories are altered later (official retractions don't happen as much as unadvertised rewrites these days).

I hate the media. Not just with entertainment, but in general. The big news outlets need to just go away.



And why is nobody else mentioning how stupid it is to say that Cavill's age would stand in the way of him appearing with a teenage Supergirl? Some of these geeky sites have to know Supergirl's story, and therefore know that this age issue is crap. Why aren't they saying it?



Now, all that said... if we have seen the last of his Superman, I think his arc plays well. It's not the complete arc that we were hoping for, but it does resolve his overall arc in a lot of ways. He went from being a lonely young man, scared of his own powers, to being a hero, surrounded by a team of friends and allies, celebrating his abilities. That's pretty solid.

Please be informed that the political, scientific, sociological, economic and legal views expressed in Informant's posts and social media accounts do not reflect any consensus of Sliders.tv.

Re: DC Superheroes in Film (Theatrical and Streaming)

The new rumor is that they're considering Michael B. Jordan as Superman.

Because that worked really well last time....

Re: DC Superheroes in Film (Theatrical and Streaming)

Well, they’ve got a few existing options for a black Superman.  One is the bold choice to essentially make Obama be Superman.

http://superman.wikia.com/wiki/Calvin_Ellis

Then there is Val-Zod who has a better story and a more direct tie to Supergirl:

http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Val-Zod_(Earth_2)

And then there’s the Sunshine Superman, but he’s just silly.

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/sunshine … 005-62027/

Re: DC Superheroes in Film (Theatrical and Streaming)

I have nothing against Michael B. Jordan, and I'm sure that there are many characters that he'd be great for. But no. If these rumors were true (and I don't believe them), I'd probably just walk away. They have a good thing going in the movies, so if they choose to much that up for some silly reason, I'm out. The DC tv shows crumbled (at least a couple of them because of their over-politicization) and I find this whole environment exhausting.

Please be informed that the political, scientific, sociological, economic and legal views expressed in Informant's posts and social media accounts do not reflect any consensus of Sliders.tv.

Re: DC Superheroes in Film (Theatrical and Streaming)

Refreshing myself on the history, I believe Jordan would be good as Val-Zod.  It would be pretty easy to rework the Earth 2 story by just saying Kal-el disappeared and save the Darkseid / Apokolips invasion for later.  It could actually work as the soft continuation of the DCEU Warner seems to want; and Val had closer ties to Supergirl as they were both older when launched from Krypton.

As for the finale to the Kal-el arc, they could have the villain in full body armor (ala Darth Vader), and when he’s defeated we see through the crack in his chest plate that the S shield of Cavill’s costume is showing through.  It would still be open to bring Cavill back down the road as even the Earth 2 story had that initial evil Superman as just one of an army of clones Darkseid created.

Re: DC Superheroes in Film (Theatrical and Streaming)

The problem is, they already killed him off... and brought him back.
They already made him bad... and turned him good (though, very quickly)

They spent Suicide Squad and Justice League showing us a world without Superman. It wasn't good. So if they then turn around and boot Superman from the DCEU, they undermine everything that they've built.

I have no problem with them deciding to bring in some other characters, no matter how obscure. But they need to leave Superman alone.

It just doesn't make sense, which is why I have a hard time buying these rumors. If Warner is doing this to try to appease all of those people who whined about "Not my Superman" when they saw Man of Steel, why would they choose to make an even bigger move away from Superman, right as they've positioned Clark to become the person that everyone wanted him to become in the first place?

And again, why does a "teenage Supergirl" concept mean that Cavill is too old? Is there a continuity where she becomes Supergirl while he is still a baby? None of this makes any sort of logical sense, even from a panicked, reactionary position. Bringing in a new director to make a Man of Steel sequel, with Clark as he is now, seems to be the answer to everyone's problems. And it's what Cavill was talking about a little while ago... which is the only legitimate information we have on any sort of talks that have taken place.


I never believe news just because people tell me to. Every major news outlet is referring back to The Hollywood Reporter, which is itself basing its story on an anonymous source, who doesn't seem to know anything about the source material, or the contracts that are in place. They play down the comments from Warner Bros, but that is the only legitimate part of the whole story.

Please be informed that the political, scientific, sociological, economic and legal views expressed in Informant's posts and social media accounts do not reflect any consensus of Sliders.tv.

Re: DC Superheroes in Film (Theatrical and Streaming)

Well, I think WB has no idea what they're doing.  I think they gave Snyder the bandwidth to make his three-part story, and that's essentially all they had.  Without Snyder, they're scrambling for someone to have a vision.  In the mean time, they had Suicide Squad and Wonder Woman, which had their own separate visions that really didn't tie into the Snyder movies.  With Wonder Woman 1984 still keeping itself separated from the regular continuity (as another prequel), Aquaman doing its own thing, and the Joker movie being in a completely separate continuity (unless they surprise us all and end it with a Jared Leto cameo of Joker being someone like Jason Todd or Dick Grayson), they're moving away from a shared universe.

I don't think their strategy is a bad one.  All these movies don't have to tie together like Marvel does.  There's no need to shoehorn Cyborg into an Aquaman movie to make it work.  Wonder Woman has a huge hole to fill in her history, and doing a movie in the 80s makes sense.  And if Joker is an Elseworld, then it opens up the idea of doing other Elseworlds.  It might even make it easy to replace actors or follow the model from the animated movies (where each movie is its own thing, and voices are always changing).

But I'm still looking for someone to have a vision for where this universe/multiverse is going.  WB has been very reactionary, and it's messed with the tone of both the universe itself and the individual movies.  They're trying to copy everything about the Marvel model except for the stuff that makes Marvel feel cohesive - singular leadership at the top whose sole purpose is to keep the universe feeling connected and moving forward.

Re: DC Superheroes in Film (Theatrical and Streaming)

I think you're looking for the wrong things from DC. So far, the movies have felt like the same universe to me, but more than that, they've felt like the comic books. Yes, different stories have different tones or even styles, but they still fit into the same world. Suicide Squad felt like BvS to me. Wonder Woman feels like Man of Steel (in terms of universes, not overall story).

But if you're looking for "Where is this going", I think you'll be waiting for a while. The DC universe isn't about where we'll be ten years from now. It's about the movie we're watching right now. This probably makes it look more chaotic than it is, in the press, because they're looking for "In six years, we'll have Darkseid show up, but we have to set up Jason Todd and Booster Gold first", and that's just not happening.

Shazam is in the DCEU. As is Aquaman. They might not have a ton of crossovers, but that's not any sort of correction. It's been the plan all along.




Anyway, does anyone follow Henry Cavill on Instagram? He is either trolling all of the people who are upset at his leaving (which would be out of character for him), or he is making fun of the needless chaos.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BnpPIrmFN9n … snwxs5vqh4

Please be informed that the political, scientific, sociological, economic and legal views expressed in Informant's posts and social media accounts do not reflect any consensus of Sliders.tv.

Re: DC Superheroes in Film (Theatrical and Streaming)

I'd be more inclined to believe that there's a singular vision for this if there wasn't a standalone Joker movie.  It's not a DCEU prequel because they're looking to hire someone to play Thomas Wayne, and they haven't approached Jeffrey Dean Morgan.

Then there's all the talk that the Batman movie is outside of continuity.  That Aquaman doesn't really connect to the DCEU (it, at least, has consistent actors). It seems, at least, that they wanted/still want Superman to appear in Shazam, and there's a lot of DCEU references in that movie.

It just seems inconsistent on whether or not they're committed to sticking with what was essentially Zach Snyder's universe.  I don't think they need to replicate Marvel - the way they're doing things is okay.  I just would like for there to be some sort of indication that they have a plan.  If they want to do a shared universe, cool.  If they want to do Elseworlds, cool.  But if they do a little bit of this and a little bit of that, I think they're going to lose the non-comic audience.

Re: DC Superheroes in Film (Theatrical and Streaming)

The Joker movie is a different thing. I have no idea what it is, or how to judge it just yet. Sometimes it sounds cool, and like it could be disconnected from the Batman character entirely. It could just be a crime story, based on the character. But at other times, the movie sounds like a disaster, filled with poorly-conceived political commentary and horrible casting.

I guess we'll see.

Aquaman does connect to the DCEU. It features at least two characters/actors from Justice League. I don't see how that's viewed as any sort of step away from the established continuity. The movie is about Aquaman, and will be its own thing, but it's the same universe, the same characters, the same mythology created as a backstory in Justice League.

And the Batman movie... we know nothing about. There's talk that it's a whole new thing, with a whole new cast... but these rumors are born from not having any actual information. We have to separate out the wild speculation and sloppy ponderings from the actual reality of the situation.


Is it me, or could we just swap out comic book themes for politics and just as easily be talking about any other story in the news right now? smile

Please be informed that the political, scientific, sociological, economic and legal views expressed in Informant's posts and social media accounts do not reflect any consensus of Sliders.tv.

Re: DC Superheroes in Film (Theatrical and Streaming)

The only reason I mention that Aquaman is a step away from the DCEU is that Wan has repeatedly said that it's "isolated" from the rest of the DCEU.  Which is fine...like I said, there don't have to be shoehorned Justice League cameos for no reason.  But if the movie doesn't address the growth Arthur's character went through in Justice League, it'll be weird.

I heard something about DC finally naming their universe officially "The Worlds of DC" - but that might be a more-inclusive label for all their properties, including animation, TV, and video games.

And, again, this is where a spokesman/figurehead/centerpiece would be beneficial.  Just someone to stand up when rumors happen and say "listen, I'm the only one who is speaking officially on this.  Cavill is not out.  Aquaman and Shazam are very much in our connected universe, which is proceeding.  The Joker movie is (blank).  We're excited about developing movies for (whoever) and you'll get more information on that when it's ready."

It doesn't have to be anyone with any real power at DC.  If they don't want a Kevin Feige, they don't need one.  But someone who can speak for the company when rumors start swirling.

But maybe they don't care.  Maybe they like the rumors.  Maybe they create the rumors themselves to float ideas.  I have no idea.

Re: DC Superheroes in Film (Theatrical and Streaming)

I think they just mean that, like Wonder Woman or Suicide Squad, the movie is its own thing, while existing in that universe. Whereas Marvel will bring Spider-Man into Civil War and then his whole movie has to revolve around that Peter/Tony angle, Aquaman won't be feeding into any larger DCEU stories, or following up on any from before, which makes sense. It's very much in keeping with the comic books, whereas the Marvel approach is to create one large painting with all of these characters in different corners of the same canvas.

I don't think non-comic book people are going to follow the DCEU. I think that well probably dried up a while ago (at least for Batman and Superman), so they have to take those characters who have already been in a ton of movies, and try to play a different angle. This is another reason why the Aquaman/Shazam/Wonder Woman movies would be handled differently than the Batman/Superman movies.

It would be nice to have someone officially representing the franchise. I thought Geoff Johns was supposed to be doing that, but he doesn't seem to be.

That said, letting the press go crazy is sometimes a smart tactic. Warner can release all of these rumors about Cavill being fired, which will bring more support to Cavill (because people like him as an actor). Then the next Superman movie, which non-DCEU fans would probably not care about, suddenly becomes a rallying point... all while Warner Bros gets to shrug and ask what all of the fuss was about, because they never fired anyone. They have no movie in production, but they still have headlines.

Knowing how to manipulate the swarm of hack reporters is a talent that people underestimate.


TMZ is reporting that the whole thing is fake:
http://www.tmz.com/2018/09/13/henry-cav … ch_Results


Negotiating in the press? Maybe. I love how they're keeping open the possibility that someone else would come in to play him. At face value, it seems like Warner Bros is trying to keep Cavill on his toes during negotiations. However, I'm inclined to believe that they're keeping the rumor mill spinning. Cavill has another movie on his contract (probably with a big pay raise over his previous movies). The Shazam movie would have been a new negotiation, and it (apparently) fell through (thought there has been some interaction between Cavill and Zachary Levi on social media). Cavill loves playing with the minds of the fans (as he did while teasing Green Lantern stuff before Justice League came out), so he knows what he's doing here.

People (and by this, I mostly mean entertainment reporters) need to spot BS. There were a lot of tells in that original report, which anyone with a passing knowledge of DC characters, or Cavill's position on the DCEU should have picked up on.

Please be informed that the political, scientific, sociological, economic and legal views expressed in Informant's posts and social media accounts do not reflect any consensus of Sliders.tv.

Re: DC Superheroes in Film (Theatrical and Streaming)

Firstly, it was The Hollywood Reporter, reporting on backroom Hollywood negotiations.  I don't see what the big deal is.  It's GOSSIP.  Also, the "news" that there is no active Superman project still stings, and, honestly, proves that Cavill's time wearing the cape is likely over.  They need a young director with a strong vision to come forward.  Heck, maybe this will do that?

Re: DC Superheroes in Film (Theatrical and Streaming)

They've said repeatedly, they're working on the next Man of Steel movie. They have nothing to move forward with because they're trying to put the project together. There are about a hundred movies in the same position, which you'll be sitting down to watch in a couple of years.

And yeah, it's gossip. But it was sloppy gossip that shouldn't have been picked up by nearly as many of the media outlets as it was. Especially the geekier sites, which reported it despite the obvious flaws in the story. I can never understand why people will believe whatever they're told, regardless of how credible those reports are. If I could look at that report and tell that it was fake, the Hollywood Reporter, and all of the other people who make a living at this crap, have no reason not to do the same. Which mean, they reported it despite knowing that it stank.

Please be informed that the political, scientific, sociological, economic and legal views expressed in Informant's posts and social media accounts do not reflect any consensus of Sliders.tv.

Re: DC Superheroes in Film (Theatrical and Streaming)

See, I really don't think anything nefarious is going on.  It could be nothing more than an adjustment to the way an industry like Hollywood releases news.  If WB is, in fact, leaking stuff to negotiate in the media, then there used to be a very simple way that this was done - they'd tell a reporter at variety or whatever and it'd get released as a rumor through an outlet or two.

Now any of us could have a web site or a twitter, and it wouldn't take much to start a rumor.  And with all these people trying to one-up each other for a scoop, some people could tweak the rumor to be "right" when it happens.  And it works the other way too.  People could make up a rumor, claim to be an anonymous source, and then get a story on a smaller site.  Then the bigger sites, trying for a scoop, report it.

I hope that they get it worked out.  I liked Cavill in Justice League, and I think he wants the role.  And it's a cameo...this is something they need to figure out.

Re: DC Superheroes in Film (Theatrical and Streaming)

Geoff Johns seems to have been, in practical terms, kicked to the curb except for projects that were already in development.  The exception may be the Berlanti shows, but time will tell.

Johns and Diane Nelson made a mistake in trying to fix the Justice League movie; they should have let it stand or fall for what it was, and then picked up the pieces afterward to do it right with the films that followed.  By stepping in, all Johns and Nelson accomplished was to take a share of the blame; and it cost them.

Johns was already on shaky ground after Green Lantern, though.  He fought tooth and nail to get it done his way; but because Warner only half listened to him, it ended up being messy.

Re: DC Superheroes in Film (Theatrical and Streaming)

What did Johns want for Green Lantern?

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Never saw any details leaked; just reporting about the struggle.

By the time Johns was given the Green Lantern comic, he was popular enough and established enough at DC Comics to have the freedom to do what he wanted; so I would say look to his comics run for how he would do it.  In those comics, Krona is not Parallax; Abin Sur dies of his own fear and paranoia that grew from a prophecy an enemy shared; Sinestro trained Jordan personally (which led to Sinestro being thrown out of the Corps when Jordan exposed that Sinestro was using his ring to control his home world like a fascist dictator).  That’s just a few things off the top of my head; but I feel confident Johns comics likely show what he wanted.

Re: DC Superheroes in Film (Theatrical and Streaming)

Joker.

http://www.superherohype.com/news/42199 … ker-makeup

Re: DC Superheroes in Film (Theatrical and Streaming)

Well, this doesn't sound very good.

http://www.superherohype.com/news/42206 … e#/slide/1

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It depends, really. In a weird way, Harley kidnapping Dr. Phil sounds like something that the old cartoon Harley would do.


As with everything having to do with these movies, I'm just going to have to wait and see. Who knows what's going on at this point? The Joker movie could be interesting, but I wonder if they'll even tie it to the DC world/characters, or just use the Joker as inspiration for some crazy 1980's serial killer story.

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Re: DC Superheroes in Film (Theatrical and Streaming)

Apparently Thomas Wayne is going to be in it so it'll definitely have connections to DC.  I think it could actually be one of the "better" DC movies because it's so simply its own thing, and it won't have to worry about franchises or anything like that.

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Well, I'm looking forward to AQUAMAN. I've never read a single issue of his comic, but I really enjoyed Jason Momoa in JUSTICE LEAGUE. I'm excited for the next WONDER WOMAN and SHAZAM features Zachary Levi from CHUCK, so I'm eager for that. BIRDS OF PREY has a 2020 release date and I love the old TV show although it wasn't actually good.

... as for the swirling fog that is DC after these three films -- whatever. There's not much to discuss in terms of specifics.

When it comes to generalities, though -- what we're looking at is that the bubble has burst on the blockbuster feature film extravaganza which is globally successful to audiences who don't speak English, see subtitled versions and enjoy computer generated lunacy. TRANSFORMERS really tapped into this subliterate, visual-seeking market.

Since then, the cost of movie tickets and the rise of streaming services has more of the audience staying home. Movies like JUSTICE LEAGUE simply cost too much and profit too little and I think Warner Bros. is going to have to seriously rethink how much they spend and on what they spend it.

SUPERGIRL presents Superman-powers on a TV budget and while its effects would most definitely not pass muster on the big screen (and struggle already for the small), there's got to be some mid-point between two million an episode (a guess) and 300 million for a two hour JUSTICE LEAGUE movie at which a 660 million dollar gross for movies like JL is a success instead of a failure.

There is probably a way to make good, modern, $80 million dollar SUPERMAN and BATMAN movies -- but I suspect that you can't make them with Henry Cavill and Ben Affleck as their current contracts were designed with the TRANSFORMERS-style model in mind. You could probably make SUPERGIRL and ARROW movies for $80 million as Melissa Benoist and Stephen Amell charge a lot less.

I remember, maybe 10 years ago, I said that the best medium for superhero movies was animation. The technology has advanced; the days of SMALLVILLE restricting Clark's powers to the budgetary minimum is over and even on a CW budget, Supergirl can fly in every episode, but currently, the most profitable medium for superheroes is the TV model and market. Maybe it's time to bring Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Aquaman and Green Lantern to the Arrowverse -- and let them rise from there to the big screen, but on a budget closer to TV. I suppose that's the DC streaming service?

Re: DC Superheroes in Film (Theatrical and Streaming)

Well, I wonder if WB could've used a successful tactic from the days of old and done serials of sorts.  What if, instead of two $300 million movies, they did 12 $50 million movies?  Hire young actors/actresses and lock them into 10+ movie contracts, and do stories that don't require a bunch of special effects.  Every month, release a movie.  A Batman noir detective story.  The origin of Barry Allen.  A grounded Wonder Woman story.  Green Arrow.  Every movie is about 90 minutes, and if you want, do a 10-15 minute mini-movie about someone like the Question or Blue Beetle or someone like that.

Maybe after the first year, they start bumping into each other.  Batman meets Flash.  Cyborg meets Wonder Woman.  And then you start seeing some blue woosh every once in a while.  Characters start talking about an invulnerable man with incredible strength.  Maybe Barry sees a man running pretty fast - maybe as fast as he is.  Maybe you get a Supergirl movie where Kara is trying to understand what's happened to her and looking for her cousin.

Then you do one big budget film as Superman shows up, steps out of the shadows, and the Justice League rises to face some big villain.

So it's the ireactions idea - small-screen stories bumped up for the big screen, told like they were on television on a budget that's fairly easy to get back.  Probably too much to coordinate but I think you'd just need to run it like the Arrowverse is run and churn everything out as best as you can.

Re: DC Superheroes in Film (Theatrical and Streaming)

I think that the future is in television. The old excuse was that tv was a cheap, shallow way to tell stories, but that isn't true anymore. The Netflix Marvel shows probably look better than the MCU movies. The Veronica Mars revival will be filming from October through March for eight episodes. So TV is no longer cheap, shallow crap that is produced in bulk, as quickly as possible. Is Man of Steel 2 were to become an 8 episode miniseries on a streaming platform, that might be cool. And Cavill might even be into it.

That said, nothing should ever he done in the fashion of the Arrowverse. That franchise has become such a huge mess, I've been considering dropping it entirely. The Arrow writers made a post on Twitter the other day, celebrating how diverse their writers room is, and it made me kinda mad. Not because I'm against diversity or whatever, but because they think their room is worth celebrating when nobody there knows how to do their job. This mentality is showing in all of the Arrowverse shows, and it is frustrating to me because it is so unnecessary. I used to really look forward to Arrow and The Flash, and now they're garbage, because the writers don't actually give a damn.

I hope that the DCU shows are better, but there is some crossover behind the scenes, so I don't know.

Anyway, a really solid series for Superman or Batman, or others from the DCEU would he cool. It just needs to be made by the right people, with the right motivation. If the DCU platform were the only place to find the continuation of the DCEU, I'd subscribe. As it is now... I will wait until Titans finishes their season and then do the free trial. We'll see how it goes from there.

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Re: DC Superheroes in Film (Theatrical and Streaming)

I don't think the divide between MAN OF STEEL and SUPERGIRL is in terms of the amount of effects but rather how elaborate the process is. MAN OF STEEL spent a year or two preparing conceptual work for how it would look when Superman lifted things, punched enemies or flew; SUPERGIRL took maybe a month. MAN OF STEEL's fights unfolded across an entire town and then a city; SUPERGIRL's fights are isolated to a single space. The TV scale is more minimalistic, and maybe movies need to start doing the same thing in process and visualization too.

MAN OF STEEL, BVS and JUSTICE LEAGUE were filmed all around the globe; SUPERGIRL and THE FLASH are filmed entirely in Vancouver these days.

So, if you were to have done MAN OF STEEL and BATMAN VS. SUPERMAN and JUSTICE LEAGUE on a closer to TV budget, you wouldn't have Ben Affleck, Amy Adams, Laurence Fishburne or any other movie star performers with their movie star quotes. You wouldn't have non-Vancouver location filming, so any non-urban environments like Smallville, Africa or the Arctic would be natural Vancouver areas without buildings, stock footage, greenscreen work and sets. Superman and Zod would fight in the sewers, not across a whole city. There would be an emphasis on superheroes using their powers in one specific way in one powerful slow motion shot rather than lengthy sequences of them using their powers in different ways.

Whatever their faults, MAN OF STEEL, BVS and JUSTICE LEAGUE showed superheroes at full power without SMALLVILLE's offscreen power usage, without THE FLASH and SUPERGIRL's reliance on standing sets and a generic city background and without single-room fights. Can an audience that's seen MAN OF STEEL level supeheroics accept stepping back to a superhero film that's closer to ARROW than BATMAN VS. SUPERMAN? I do not know.

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Well, Marvel / Disney is doing what Informant suggests with their streaming service next year.  They’re doing two multi-episode series for Loki (starring Hiddleston) and Scarlet Witch (starring Olsen).  It will be the movies translated directly to the tv format - actors included.  Marvel / Disney is once again ahead of the curve while DC / Warner is left to play catch up.

Re: DC Superheroes in Film (Theatrical and Streaming)

The simple answer for the question of whether a Man of Steel audience would accept Supergirl level stories is... no. I think the CW shows worked when it was Oliver fighting for one city, at street-level. It was gritty and grounded. One you started introducing larger elements like magic, superpowers, or even Felicity's hacking in every episode, the series fell apart. This could be fixed with better writing. But Supergirl (when last I watched, which was a while ago) looked horrible.

I think a TV audience would accept these characters shifting to TV, but we can't be talking about CW-style TV here. We have to be talking more along the lines of Game of Thrones, Man in the High Castle, or Stranger Things... not all necessarily large spectacles, but all carefully considered. The world building still needs to be there. The quality has to be movie-level. The budget would still need to be much higher than what we see on network TV, but there's no reason why a Batman series can't be done on a Netflix budget. Superman would be tricky, because he needs the scale of what we saw in Man of Steel... but we wouldn't necessarily need extended space scenes, massive government forces fighting alien space ships, etc. Some stuff could be trimmed.

Warner Brothers needs to stop throwing money out the window, for sure. The next Batman movie doesn't need a $200 million budget. Batman is a normal people, fighting mostly crazy-but-normal people. With Batman, bigger isn't necessarily better.

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Re: DC Superheroes in Film (Theatrical and Streaming)

TemporalFlux wrote:

Well, Marvel / Disney is doing what Informant suggests with their streaming service next year.  They’re doing two multi-episode series for Loki (starring Hiddleston) and Scarlet Witch (starring Olsen).  It will be the movies translated directly to the tv format - actors included.  Marvel / Disney is once again ahead of the curve while DC / Warner is left to play catch up.


I read about that! I'm curious to see if they turn out more like the Netflix shows, or more like the movies. Loki should have probably been retired a long time ago though...

Honestly, I don't know if I'll ever bother to try the Disney service. Disney quality isn't what it used to be.

Please be informed that the political, scientific, sociological, economic and legal views expressed in Informant's posts and social media accounts do not reflect any consensus of Sliders.tv.

Re: DC Superheroes in Film (Theatrical and Streaming)

Hiddleston’s Loki is popular with fans; but without him, I think people wouldn’t care much for the character.  I’m curious if they’ll pull other stars into it too.  They recently did a storyline where Loki stole Doctor Strange’s mantle as Sorcerer Supreme; and with Benedict Cumberbatch receptive to television, I could see him joining the project to explore that story.

With Olsen, I’m not sure where they could go with that; her solo stories have usually included more than her (either co-starting her brother Quicksilver, Vision or the entire Marvel U such as in House of M).  But, her series would be an opportunity to give a soft introduction to the MCU’s version of mutants and the X-men universe.

Of course, one could argue the DC Universe service is taking steps toward this too.  The new Doom Patrol series has cast Timothy Dalton as The Chief; and he’s a recognizable name.  But even with that, it’s still Berlanti and the feel of an extension to his CW universe.  That’s not a bad thing; it’s just not the theatrical to tv model we’re discussing.

Re: DC Superheroes in Film (Theatrical and Streaming)

James Gunn might be the guy to write and direct the new Suicide Squad movie.

His personal life aside, I think that might be a fantastic match for him, content-wise.

Re: DC Superheroes in Film (Theatrical and Streaming)

No. No. No. Not only do they not need to bring in a guy who immediately makes people think of pedophilia, but they also don't need to bring in another Marvel outcast.

I don't know how true this is, but if rumors like this are true, it's like Warner Bros is actively trying to bring down the DCEU at this point.

James Gunn is no great and special talent. He made one good movie in his multi-decade career, and a sequel that, while great by Marvel standards, was not a good movie. If Warner wants to work with Gunn, they should let him go off and make his own original content. He shouldn't be tied to a franchise like this.

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837 (edited by Slider_Quinn21 2018-10-09 14:41:26)

Re: DC Superheroes in Film (Theatrical and Streaming)

I mean, again, putting aside whatever happened in Gunn's personal life, if DC is going to hire him (and it was widely reported that they want to), I think Suicide Squad is the franchise to give him.  It's a quirky, sorta off to the side, group of misfit characters in a distorted/zany universe of its own.  Guardians worked with a nice ensemble cast of characters, and I think Gunn could do the same with the Suicide Squad cast (which, if anything, was well cast).

It'd be better than giving him something like Flashpoint, Cyborg, New Gods, etc.

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The question is, are they just looking for him to write a Guardians movie and swap out the names? Because while the movies had some similarities, they weren't exactly the same type of movies.

I just don't get why, with all of the talent out there in the world, Warner Bros keeps bringing in Marvel's table scraps. They're the home of Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman. They don't need to chase anyone, and yet they keep doing it. And that is what is ultimately doing them the most harm.

Disney fired Gunn because they didn't want their brand mentioned in the same articles as those horrible tweets and pictures. Warner Bros is actively pursuing those articles. Why?

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Re: DC Superheroes in Film (Theatrical and Streaming)

Informant wrote:

The question is, are they just looking for him to write a Guardians movie and swap out the names? Because while the movies had some similarities, they weren't exactly the same type of movies.

Well, it could be argued that Suicide Squad could be more up Gunn's alley than Guardians ever was.  Gunn, obviously, has an affinity for more violent, adult content than he ever got to play around with at Marvel.  Letting him play around in a sandbox with a bunch of charismatic criminals might actually be something perfectly suited for him.

As for why they're pursuing him, I think he's obviously got some talent.  Is he a pedophile...I really can't say.  All I can say is that he seems like a decent guy from his social media, and if he didn't do anything legally wrong and if he's sorry for being immature...then I'm willing to give him another chance.  And if he got Suicide Squad, it'd be another in the line of strong directors bringing a unique voice to DC movies.  I'd be pretty psyched to see what he can do with it.

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Yeah, I don't know that he is actually a pedophile, and he shouldn't be blacklisted for the tweets (though far less offensive people have been banned for far less offensive material). I just think it is a bad visual all around. Not only will those tweets be mentioned in every article about his connection to Suicide Squad, but it looks like Warner is desperate to chase Marvel, when they shouldn't be.

I do think that this would bring in some viewers who would otherwise be anti-DCEU, but who were upset about Disney firing him. But will that balance out the loss of people who are creeped out by him? While I don't think he should be blacklisted, I'm honestly in no rush to watch one of his movies right now. If I'm being honest, he does gross me out a bit. I'm not boycotting, but I'm also not a fan.

Please be informed that the political, scientific, sociological, economic and legal views expressed in Informant's posts and social media accounts do not reflect any consensus of Sliders.tv.