951 (edited by Slider_Quinn21 2018-11-01 13:11:00)

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I'm honestly a little shocked that doesn't seem to be much, if any, conversations between the writing staffs.  Based on their twitter presence, it seems like the shows get along.  But there are many, many times when these shows don't seem to be connected.

I understand not sacrificing quality in terms of a "shared universe", and I understand that's something that these shows have to tread carefully.  This is 80-something episodes a year, and it's a much more daunting task than something like the MCU or the DCEU.  But you're right, there are weird re-treading that the writers have done.  There's also been a distinct drop in the number of overlaps on the show.  I get that they use a lot of resources to do the crossover, and that they want that to feel special.  So if Cisco visited Team Arrow a couple times a season, it wouldn't feel as special when he gets to interact in the crossover.

I always liked those little mini-crossovers, though.  When Diggle would show up on Flash because they needed help from Argus, it was cool.  And I loved Diggle's wonder at what Barry can do.  I get that having Barry makes Team Arrow's job seem a bit redundant, but it boggles my mind that Barry doesn't help more when Oliver is out of commission.  Or Wally.  Or even someone like Cisco or Ralph.

There didn't seem to be many ripples for Team Flash when Oliver was arrested.  I guess the FBI is cool with vigilantes as long as they don't kill?

I get that they want their shows to be their shows.  And maybe its a coincidence that both Barry and Oliver have been to jail.  And that they have future kids interacting on the show.  But it might just be both shows running out of steam at the same time.

We have both of their adult children from the future (and I have to think that if grown William doesn't have some relevance to the current story, it's a HUGE waste of air time).

I don't think flash forwards are a waste of time.  If a decision that Oliver and Felicity makes in the present affects the future, it's cool to see the ripple effects of that.  It could even hypothetically impact what's happening on Flash, since William's story is taking place pretty close to Nora's time, I think?

********

Speaking of Arrow, the Level 2 stuff could get pretty interesting.  I like that they've had some early season bad guys in prison so far.  I'm hoping to see some bigger names and badder bad guys on Level 2 (and maybe Level 3?).  I'm still hoping for a Supermax situation, especially if they can't do the Suicide Squad.

Although ireactions might know - apparently Lyla disbanded Task Force X when she took over for Amanda Waller?  It's in some comic?  I saw a passing reference to that online.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Team Flash didn't even seem to know that Oliver is in prison. They were wondering about getting his help with Cicada earlier this season.

I believe that Nora is from 30 years in the future, while William is 20. So it doesn't appear to be any sort of joint story.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Is Nora from that far out?  I guess, like ireactions, I'm confused on what Nora's age is.

Did Team Flash say that Oliver couldn't help, or that future Oliver did face him and didn't win?  I remember the latter but not the former.

(I watch a lot of these shows while I'm on my phone big_smile)

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Nora told Team Flash that Green Arrow couldn't defeat Cicada, so they decided not to go to Green Arrow. There was no discussion about him being in prison.

I think Nora is 25 years old-ish, from 30 years in the future, but she acts like she's 16. It's all messed up.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

The Flash costume... well, they're lighting it a lot better than they were in the first two episodes of Season 5. It's a bit darker. However -- and this is driving me crazy -- the cut of the cowl at the neck-chin line has not been correctly sized for Grant Gustin's body, and it keeps rolling up or hanging loose, and it doesn't suit a character who should have a very clean, streamlined design. And part of this is because they lost the chinstrap and the secure hold it had on Gustin's face.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

So, when Dinah was lying insensate on the ground and there was a close-up of a bad guy approaching her with a murder implement, I totally assumed we would cut away to another sequence and we'd next see Dinah wandering into the police precinct making reference to an offscreen rescue from ARGUS.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Is anyone as bemused as I am by Ray Palmer’s character trajectory from aloof, distantly mysterious scientist on ARROW to hapless, awkward goofball on LEGENDS?

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

The characterization on Legends has always weirded me out.  As Informant has ranted about before, I don't think there's a huge connection between Sara on Arrow and Sara on Legends.  And with Ray, he does seem to be super awkward most of the time.  He's arguably the biggest actor on the show (he did play *Superman* in a movie), and yet I don't know if the show uses him that often.  I was surprised that they even had him in the Atom suit a couple episodes ago.

Legends could/should be a show where under-utilized characters on the other shows get a chance to stretch their wings.  It's why Wally on the team made so much sense.  It's why it might be a good place for Guardian or someone like Curtis or Black Siren or Killer Frost or Elongated Man.

But if they're just going to take characters that exist and make them into something wholly different from what they were on the show they came from, they might be better off creating their own characters (which is what, for the most part, they've done since season 1).

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Hey, if they move Black Siren to Legends, there will be nothing left for me to be entertained by on Arrow. I could write numerous fanfic stories about the tiny nose ring that she feels a need to wear whenever she goes all Siren-y this season.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Well, I'm just saying that Legends could be used as a vehicle to showcase her more.  Then return her to Arrow as a hero.

Although I love that the writers of Arrow think that Laurel, with zero experience, could simply work really hard and be a competent district attorney.  I know most of these writers don't understand how 95% of jobs out there work, but she doesn't have any knowledge of the law.  She'd have to work day and night for years to get where she is.  It might've been a stretch for *original* Laurel to get that job.

Oh and I have a theory about the flash forwards - they're taking place in Earth 2.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I was just talking about this with someone, and Legends really isn’t a DC show anymore.  To use this season so far, there is so much DC lore they could be pulling from to populate this magic story:

The Demons Three - Justice League level villains which include their own quest element with the bell, wheel and jar artifacts used to summon and banish them.

Nebiros - the Demon connected to the origin of Blue Devil - a stunt man who becomes magically fused with his animatronic movie costume.

Neron - DC’s version of Satan who focused on offering villains power ups to encourage them to be evil again - a perfect story for Mick Rory to take part in.

Mordru - the timeless Lord of Chaos with a strong connection to the Justice society, the Legion of Super-Heroes and Gemworld (featuring the hero Amethyst).

That’s just off the top of my head.  There is so much they could be doing, but instead we’re getting unicorns and fairy god mothers. At this point, Crazy Ex-Girlfriend has as much claim of being a DC show as Legends does.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

TemporalFlux wrote:

I was just talking about this with someone, and Legends really isn’t a DC show anymore.

Did anyone else read this and get jealous? Like -- TF is talking to someone about LEGENDS? Someone who isn't US? Who!? Where!? When!?!? Why weren't WE included!??! Oh, wait, we are being included. Okay. Carry on.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

ireactions wrote:
TemporalFlux wrote:

I was just talking about this with someone, and Legends really isn’t a DC show anymore.

Did anyone else read this and get jealous? Like -- TF is talking to someone about LEGENDS? Someone who isn't US? Who!? Where!? When!?!? Why weren't WE included!??! Oh, wait, we are being included. Okay. Carry on.

lol

Earth Prime | The Definitive Source for Sliders™

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

ireactions wrote:
TemporalFlux wrote:

I was just talking about this with someone, and Legends really isn’t a DC show anymore.

Did anyone else read this and get jealous? Like -- TF is talking to someone about LEGENDS? Someone who isn't US? Who!? Where!? When!?!? Why weren't WE included!??! Oh, wait, we are being included. Okay. Carry on.

Well, he is a guy who dresses up as the Ted Kord Blue Beetle in his spare time, so...

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

This conversation has taken a weird turn.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I really enjoy LEGENDS because of the cast, and Ray Palmer is my favourite character on the show. I think Brandon Routh is great. What follows is armchair psychoanalysis regarding Brandon Routh, the way I theorized as to Jerry O'Connell and David Peckinpah and James Gunn's inner thinking. It's theory. Don't take it seriously. I said don't take it seriously. Why are you taking it seriously? Stop taking it seriously!
 
Ray Palmer's character on LEGENDS is one of the high points for me, but there's clearly been a shift from ARROW with Ray almost a different character. Yet, Ray's character rings true for me because of Brandon Routh's performance. Acting isn't about pretending; it's about finding your truth and presenting it in a fictional context, and Ray's trajectory mirrors Routh's.
 
Routh started out as a jobbing actor who worked on soap operas and tended bar and sometimes played bartenders in soap operas before getting laid off soap operas and just being a bartender. Due to auditioning for shows produced by McG, he managed to get an audition for McG's SUPERMAN and the audition videos were kept when Warner Bros. went with another director. Routh was cast as Superman, his career going from zero to blockbuster. 
 
The resulting movie was trounced at box office by romcoms and pirate movies. But Routh was told he'd be in a sequel; the movie had done adequately. Then three years passed, his contract expired and Warner Bros. made no move to renew it and now clearly planned to move on from him.

Routh was quietly shattered by this: he had expected the next decade of his life to be acting as the custodian of Christopher Reeve's legacy. He'd thought, at least, that playing Superman would lead to many other offers. But he didn't get any other offers.
 
He had to go auditioning again and he confessed in a podcast that he was embarrassed at going from playing Superman to TV guest star roles. Routh was depressed, it affected his work. Looking at his acting, it's like he was afraid to make strong, individual choices that might offend anyone and cost him another job (even though he couldn't have done anything differently to see SUPERMAN RETURNS get a sequel). 
 
You can see an anxiety-depression complex in his work on CHUCK and in ARROW's third season: he's earnest and sincere, but it's the only note he hits, making his characterization wooden. He's afraid to embrace the words and make them his own. He's also extremely low energy; he's not enthusiastic, he isn't impassioned. In real life, Routh was tired; onscreen in ARROW, it came off as Ray being a detached, distant, mysterious scientist, haunted by the murder of his fiancee. At the end of Season 3, he went missing and Season 4 revealed that he'd been trapped in isolation for months.
 
This led to LEGENDS where Routh's performance suddenly changed, as did Ray. Stepping aboard the Wave Rider, Ray became hyperactively enthused about time travel, adventure and superheroics, diving into situations impulsively and constantly making bad situations worse before learning to make them better. 

His high energy was an irritant to the team; his screwups every week led to Reddit starting what the community termed a "Fuckup Counter" for Ray. He was a handsome hero who made a lot of mistakes and he had to struggle and persevere to triumph and needed a lot of help from his friends. He had no ego; he always accepted responsibility for his errors and took his spot on the chore wheel. It's hard to imagine the suit and tuxedo Ray of ARROW doing laundry on LEGENDS. 
 
Onscreen, there was no direct explanation for this change, although Routh's performance suggested that Ray's months of isolation had caused him to regress to a more childish state. After all, the ATOM suit had proven to be a damp squib in the tech community; he'd come to rebuild Star City only for it to carry on without him. All this had eroded Ray's previous superiority complex. 
 
The result is a character I find deeply endearing: an excitable, charmingly earnest and sweet manchild who screws up. A former mogul who's been cut down to size and accepts his diminished stature with a mix of humiliation and grace. And a vastly improved performance from Brandon Routh who has embraced this flawed and lovable character with gusto. Routh is a lifelong gamer and fantasy fan, and he really sold Ray's joy at seeing dinosaurs and the Wild West and the 60s and space.
 
The real reason Ray Palmer changed, however, is that Brandon Routh changed. By the time LEGENDS started, his son was two years old and Routh realized that his depression over Superman was affecting his family life and career. He accepted that he had to audition for roles; he wouldn't be offered leading parts based on SUPERMAN RETURNS. He came to grips with how he would never play Superman again and he would have to find some other life-defining character to play. He understood that becoming Superman had meant skipping over guest-roles, supporting roles and roles as part of ensembles -- roles he would have to not only accept but embrace to rebuild his career.

As he emerged from his depression, Routh also became obsessed with nutrition, discovering the peculiar beverage that is "Bulletproof Coffee," a grammatically curious name for a combination of grass-fed butter and coconut oil into coffee from mold-free beans as well as a high-protein and fat diet with low carb intake. Routh's physical health went on the upswing, his energy levels ramped up significantly and the once withdrawn and quiet Routh became a manic chatterbox. The LEGENDS writers proceeded to rewrite Ray with Routh's new hypercaffeinated personality.
 
In real life, Routh is known to never shut up about Bulletproof Coffee leading to the Season 3 joke where Nate only realizes Ray's been kidnapped after a morning has passed without Ray espousing the benefits of this beverage.
 
Ray Palmer in the third season of ARROW was a deeply depressed person over the death of his fiance just as Brandon Routh was quietly miserable for years over losing his franchise. Depression doesn't always manifest in binge drinking (Jerry O'Connell) or ugly rape jokes (James Gunn) or self-detruction (David Peckinpah). Sometimes, it's just low energy, low enthusiasm, and a low sense of self-worth. And then there's the gleeful joy of a new begnning; just as Routh accepted his career had taken a backwards, Ray became a less mature but happier figure on LEGENDS and took a new path forward.
 
There's a really strong moment in Season 2 where Ray has to destroy the ATOM suit to save the day and he's trying to help Nate trigger his powers. Ray agonizes that by destroying the suit, he is destroying the only thing that makes him special -- a moment that Routh played with such heartfelt grief and loss, undoubtedly drawing on how it felt when Warner Bros. let his Superman contract expire.
 
There's also Season 3 opening with Ray, off the Wave Rider, working as an intern at a dating site and being mocked for having once been a big shot in tech. It isn't remotely realistic; Ray Palmer would have still had his profits and savings. But it's *true* -- that is how Routh felt auditioning to play Cop #3 characters after he'd played Superman. 
 
And that's why I really like Ray Palmer on LEGENDS. Ray is a man who, in losing his fiancee and his company and then the ATOM suit, lost what gave his life meaning, just as Brandon Routh lost what gave him purpose and reason for being when he lost the Superman role. And both men had to rebuild themselves and create new lives. Yes, there are some breaks with strict character continuity, but this character rings true because it's Brandon Routh's truth.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I will never stop being fascinated by ireactions' ability to see so much beauty in something like Ray Palmer.  But that's a really interesting story, and it makes a whole lot of sense.  What podcast did you get all this from?

Also, what is grass-fed butter?

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Grass-fed butter means that the cows were grass fed. They usually recommend Kerrygold, which is Irish, I think. It's available everywhere and it's pretty good butter (when I first tried it, I thought it tasted almost like cheese, but I could have been having an off day).

I will admit, I tried a version of the bulletproof coffee because Routh talked about it so glowingly. I didn't spend the billion dollars on the actual brand, or the expensive coffee, but I did some research and tried to figure out how much was legit science and how much was them trying to get people to buy their specific products. Then I tried it for a while...

For me, it was gross. Putting both butter and MCT oil in the coffee was disgusting. Then it became too frothy when I blended it up, so the texture was just greasy froth, and it made me gag. There's some legit science behind the oils and all of that, but I couldn't do it. And while I tried to gag it down for a while, to see if it would give me more energy over time, and make me feel like sunshine and rainbows, it didn't really do that for me.

Maybe there's something to the name brand that I couldn't get in my version. But spending that much money on coffee would probably only make me more depressed. smile

If you want to try a super basic version of it, to get the idea, just put two tablespoons of Kerrygold butter and a couple tablespoons of unrefined coconut oil in your coffee, and blend it all together. The coconut oil isn't quite the same as pure MCT oil, but it's along the same lines.



Now I feel bad for not being able to watch Legends. Despite not liking Superman Returns, I have always gotten the impression that Routh was a good guy and there was no reason for him to not have more success (except he was tied to a horrible movie, which seems to have killed a few careers, especially since the director and one of the stars are tied to some gross sexual crime stuff). I just feel like Routh has been really let down by the writing. He came in on a weak season of Arrow, and then things got even worse with Legends. It's not his fault at all. Just like it's not Caity Lotz's fault that they ruined Sara.

As TF pointed out, Legends doesn't seem like a DC show at all. As I've said before, I get the impression that the Arrowverse writers, for the most part, have no interest in the source material, iconic characters or comic book history. Legends is the worst offender with that, aside from a few times when Arrow writers basically insulted any comic book fans who wanted to see more Green Arrow influence on Arrow.

It's frustrating when there are elements of a project that I really want to enjoy and support, but other elements that make it impossible.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

This is the podcast: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PW5jbG1Ydcc -- although I downloaded it as an MP3 using the y2mate.com YouTube to audio site.

I think combining fat and caffeine is a pretty effective way to start the day. The typical American diet is overly dependent on carbohydrates and sugar which are taxing to break down for energy with most of it being stored as fat whereas fat can be burned more directly for fuel (which is why high fat, low carb diets tend to work for weight loss). That said, I dunno that it HAS to be Bulletproof's products -- I just dissolve unsalted no name brand butter in my grocery store brand coffee. It works!

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Maybe it'd be better with just the butter, since that's kinda like putting cream in coffee. The oil and butter together was just too much for me. It could have been the brand that I was using, or something like that. Coconut oil would probably be nicer, with the coconut flavor (still present in unrefined oil, but not in the refined oil)

In theory, I can see how it would work. Like you said, it would be used for energy pretty easily. For me, it just didn't do much. I might be a difficult case though. I'm always tired and drained. I'd love a solution that gave me tons of energy and focus.


That sounded like I'm in the market for drugs. I'm not. smile

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

https://www.superherohype.com/news/4273 … ver-teaser
https://www.superherohype.com/news/4274 … ver-teaser

Spoilers for the crossover if anyone cares (and I don't think anyone does).

So that's a little disappointing.  I was hoping that we'd be fully immersed in a "what if?" scenario where Barry grew up and became the Green Arrow and Oliver got the Flash powers.  I was looking forward to a fun-loving Stephen Amell and a dark and brooding Grant Gustin.

Instead, it seems like it's a body switching movie.  Which is going to be fun for a couple minutes and then (potentially) a big mess.  The crossover has been fun every year so I'm still looking forward to it, but this is not the way that I would've gone with it.

972 (edited by Slider_Quinn21 2018-11-15 09:49:08)

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

The shows have made more references to Gotham City and a couple indirect references to an Earth-1 Batman.  I hope that, at some point down the line, they let Batman on the show.

Although if they don't, I like thinking about an Arrowverse Bruce Wayne who is either too focused on Gotham to worry about reaching out to the other, more-well-known heroes, or someone who just doesn't have any interest at all in reaching out.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I prefer to think of Batman as someone who has kept himself aware of the Arrowverse and has decided that he doesn't want to be involved, due to creative differences. smile

I have always kind of imagined Gotham as taking place on Earth 2 though.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Informant wrote:

I have always kind of imagined Gotham as taking place on Earth 2 though.

It'd have to be a prequel to Earth 2 because Barry has Bruce on speed dial in the present.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

New theory: Iris blocked Nora's abilities because Nora would age rapidly without the blocker. Nora removed the blocker on her own and began age rapidly. She is actually only 17 years old.

Otherwise, she is out-millennialing the millennials with her childish behavior.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

The Nora stuff is sorta driving me nuts.  She's a fairly interesting character, but understanding her timeline is a bit of a fake-out since we know it'll be erased at some point.  The future where Barry is gone forever is probably not happening.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Jon Cryer has been cast as Lex Luthor. I haven't seen the show since season 2, so I barely know Lena. I know enough to remember that she isn't in her 50's, as her brother will now be. Also, Brenda Strong played his mother. She doesn't look like she could have a 50-something child.

The casting on Supergirl continues to baffle me.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Crazy.  I actually didn't consider that, but the ages are weird.  But I'm sure Jon Cryer can play early 40s.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

More details have emerged about the Crossover, including confirmation that Barry and Oliver are doing a body-switching movie, essentially.  I maintain it would've been more fun if we were simply watching a story where a carefree Oliver Queen ended up as the Flash and events led to Barry Allen becoming the Green Arrow.

They've also directly answered the Batman question.  Apparently Batman has been gone for three years, and he's still regarded as a potential urban legend.  Oliver doesn't believe he exists.  Barry does.  So it's possible he showed up around the time Barry got his powers, but he didn't stay long enough to meet anyone and now he's "gone."

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I'm not really sure what I think about this season of Arrow.

On one hand, I think it's a great celebration of the show.  I wish that there had been more returning bad guys come back for the prison sequences (even though a lot of the bad guys end up dead), but it's cool that Oliver's time in prison feels real and has weight.  I like how his absence is felt by the city itself.  The new Green Arrow could be cool as long as it's handled properly (kind of like a Sons of Batman thing - someone inspired to do good).  I even think the Diggle/Curtis/ARGUS thing feels like it makes sense, and I sorta like the Dinah/Renee disagreement on vigilantes.  I even think the flash-forward stuff is cool (still calling Earth 2, though).

That being said, I feel like there are tons of missed opportunities. 

- The Felicity stuff has been discussed.  She's become much too big a part of the show, and nothing that's happened has felt earned or warrants this much screentime.  No need to discuss.
- I don't feel like the Longbow Hunters are threatening enough.  They seem like decent-enough fighters, but nothing about them makes them seem any scarier than just regular thugs.  We're more than a handful of episodes in, and only Silencer has left any impact at all.
- I understand that, in the Arrowverse, Metahumans seem to be restricted to Central City - but I was *very* disappointed that we didn't get to see much of Level 2 at all.  And only one returning character?  I was hoping that Level 2 would be full of supervillains, especially since they're making more subtle hints that Batman exists in this universe.  Could they have thrown in someone like Poison Ivy?  Or someone like that?  We had this big bad level two, and the only real conflict was with a half-assed Hugo Strange.
- I guess the Supermax rumors weren't true.  We didn't really get anything like that.  I thought the prison break / lockdown action sequences were pretty impressive, but it didn't feel like enough to me
- Just like that, Oliver is out?  Not even a passing mention of the Suicide Squad?  We're allowed to get Batwoman, Gotham, and Nora Fries (with a Flash mention of Victor), but we can't even talk about Task Force X when it's *already been on the show*?  Oliver getting out with time served after going full Suicide Squad makes so much sense, and I have to think this was something they just weren't allowed to do.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

There are parts of this season that are impressive, but there are also parts that just boggle my mind. Too much of the show feels like the writers didn't put any thought into it, and just went with whatever they thought would be cool.

The actual prison fight sequence this week was really impressive and well choreographed. It reminded me of season 1... and it reminded me why Oliver is better without a team of. I still don't get why we need Dina, Rene or Curtis. They're time wasters.

I have to say, I'm not a huge fan of the ARGUS stuff. I just don't think the writers have what's needed to pull off a strict government-run organization like that. It comes across (to me) as cartoonish in large doses. The writing works better with a team that is less official and less organized.

The flash-forward is a waste of time. I don't even know what we're supposed to be caring about with this story. They are dishing it out so slowly that it felt like weeks before we got anything more than veiled hints of a story, and now we have this big story with Star City in shambles and (possibly evil) Felicity (possibly) dead... and I'm still not sure what this has to do with the show that I'm tuning in to watch. The flashbacks made sense, because they were telling us how Oliver got to the point of being Green Arrow (even if the flashbacks themselves were weak after season 2). With the flash-forward... they just haven't given me a reason to be drawn into the "mystery" of that story, or how it will impact the present-day storyline. The producers have said that Roy is really *our* Roy, which would seem to debunk the alternate-universe theory.

I don't know. so far, it just seems like another excuse to make Felicity the central focus of the series. She's the one who sent the thing to William (who was apparently just forgotten in boarding school for twenty years). She's the one who set up this scavenger hunt. She's the one whose building they're searching (remember when the Flash newspaper hinted at Oliver reclaiming his family business/legacy somehow?). She's the one who possibly went evil. She's the one who is shockingly dead... Why is Oliver's son's storyline wrapped up in his step-mother, whom he lived with for less than a year? The show should just be called "Felicity"... but then it'd be confused with that other show, with the much less melodramatic lead character.

I don't get why Diaz is still a thing. The only reason that he is still alive is because people keep letting him live and escape for some reason. He's not threatening or scary, like Slade or even Adrian Chase. He doesn't have a master plan, like Malcolm Merlyn in season 1. He's just... there. And everyone is scared of him, despite the fact that they track him down and confront him in every other episode.

Level 2 really didn't make sense. Aside from the fact that Talia shouldn't have been there (sorry, I don't care how scary of a fighter she is, she's not going to be put in that prison with a bunch of the most dangerous male criminals). In the end, Level 2 seemed like a way to burn off an episode.


I think they mentioned the Suicide Squad, when they brought up Turner's history. I think they implied that it just wasn't a thing anymore. We'll just have to go with it, I suppose.


Some of the stuff in the prison was interesting. They should have focused more on Oliver in there, and less on the drama with all of the other characters who are only on screen because they're under contract. The city falling apart without him was an interesting idea, but poorly executed. I don't want to make it sound like I'm criticizing all female writers, since I think there are some who could really do this show justice (and because the men involved with the show have been just as bad), but specifically with the writers who have been running Arrow, I don't think they care about or "get" the action/superhero stuff. They focus too much on the relationship drama and the teary-eyed arguments, and the false-feeling soap opera elements. The action/superhero stuff feels like an afterthought, or something that they only do because they have to. I don't think that these showrunners are right for this show. I don't think they know when, or how, to hit hard with the story. The show would benefit from a producer who was excited about Green Arrow, and comic books and action, and all of that stuff.

This season isn't the worst that the show has ever been. It just seems like the writers are only writing it because they have to. So far, the flash-forward doesn't even have anything to do with the *actual* main character of the show.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Slider_Quinn21 wrote:

More details have emerged about the Crossover, including confirmation that Barry and Oliver are doing a body-switching movie, essentially.  I maintain it would've been more fun if we were simply watching a story where a carefree Oliver Queen ended up as the Flash and events led to Barry Allen becoming the Green Arrow.

Hadn’t been paying much attention, but the story is going to feature an Arkham Asylum doctor named John Deegan.  In the comics. Dr. John Dee is the Justice League villain Doctor Destiny who through use of his Materioptikon device is able to make dreams into reality.  He’s basically the DC version of Freddy Kruger but looks like Skeletor.  It’s not a rip off in the way one might think, though.  Destiny pre-dates those more famous ideas by twenty years or so.

They did a story in the comics where Doctor Destiny was mixing up the identities of heroes, so this crossover would play into that idea.  At the end of the day, it’s seeming like the title of the Elseworlds crossover is a bit misleading.  This doesn’t look like much of a parallel earth story beyond Supergirl and Flash.  The Monitor is involved (known for his role in Crisis on Infinite Earths), but I’m starting to think he’s only there to tease the greater story yet to come.  They did that in the comics too - Monitor was a shadowy, mysterious figure popping up in comics stories for a year before Crisis ever happened.

Something too that people tend to gloss over when talking about where this is going in the Arrowverse.  Crisis certainly was the death of the Flash; but it was the death of Supergirl too.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I seriously don't know what to make of Legends.  It honestly doesn't feel like a part of the Arrowverse anymore.  The team doesn't make a ton of sense, and the time travel aspect just seems to have been continued because it's been baked into the show since the beginning.

But the show is consistently fun every week.  I don't know why I watch it at all sometimes, but I almost always end the show feeling pretty good.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

They did it again!

This season, Flash and Supergirl both have middle-aged male villains that were direct witnesses to previous finales and faced collateral damage to their families due to the hero's actions.  And now they have complete hatred of a certain group, dedicating themselves to destroying that group while wearing the mask they used at their blue-collar jobs.  Both had flashback episodes inserting themselves into previous action sequences to make them more 3-dimensional to the audience.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I just realized that I haven’t posted my off-the-wall Flash theory of the season.  Meta-tech?  First appearance was the cell phone hacking people’s brains.  Flashed a purple glow in their eyes.

Is the true villain of the season the Kilg%re?  He may have been able to upload himself into that satellite before it blew up; and even in the comics, the nature of Kilg%re’s powers did not require a body - he was more of a computer code / consciousness.  Kilg%re could have survived Thinker once the Thinker’s grip was released thus freeing him.

In the comics, Kilg%re ended up outgrowing humanity and their petty concerns; and his “defeat” was that he essentially left for greater things in the universe that more deserved his attention.  But Kilg%re did save the life of Flash before he left - Flash had a pretty big bullet hole in his chest thanks to Vandal Savage.

https://s3.birthmoviesdeath.com/images/made/FFKilg_re1_1050_591_81_s_c1.jpg

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Another example of the current writers of Arrow just not getting the show they're working on:

This week, an assassin broke into Felicity and Oliver's apartment. Oliver went to fight him. Felicity went to grab her handgun. Oliver stopped in his tracks to lose his sh*t over Felicity's handgun, including asking her where she got it.

For starters, where she got it should probably have just been... the store. It wasn't a rocket launcher. It wasn't a machine gun. It wasn't even the "should be illegal because it looks scary" AR-15.

Second, Oliver wouldn't react like that. He just wouldn't. It was a reaction born from the mind of someone who doesn't know guns (most people who freak out at the sight of a gun are reacting out of ignorance. Those who know weapons see guns in much the same way they'd see a hammer. It's a tool).

Oliver has tried training Felicity to defend herself on several occasions, and has failed at it. Someone in Oliver's shoes would *expect* his wife to own a gun, because it is the only way she would be able to defend herself against a normal attacker, much less a supervillain.

By this point, Felicity should be very well trained in how to use a gun, so there's no reason why Oliver should freak out. She sure as hell wasn't a pacifist before he went to prison. Maybe season 1 Felicity wouldn't own a gun. Season 2 Felicity probably would have.

That said, the way she was handling the gun was horrible. They should have had someone on set to teach her how to handle the gun, so that Felicity didn't look like an actress stumbling around holding a gun.


This isn't a pro-gun/anti-gun issue. These people regularly waged war in the middle of the city and mowed bad guys down on a nightly basis. We're way beyond that debate as far as the show is concerned. What this is about is the fact that the writers aren't capable of thinking of Oliver as a warrior, because they don't understand that mindset. They can't wrap their mind around Felicity pulling a gun, because that is something that would absolutely shock the crap out of the writers themselves, in their own lives. They are writing a show about a vigilante who just got out of prison because he's killed a bunch of people, freaking out over the fact that his wife just pulled a handgun on a guy who was literally trying to murder them in their own home... WHILE OLIVER WAS FREAKING OUT!

With probably 90% of TV characters, the gun freakout works. That's because 90% of TV characters are just regular people, with liberal politics, and they don't want anything to do with guns. When you play that card on a show like this, it's just comedic.


Sorry. It's a peeve of mine. I know that the writers want to play guns from their point of view, because they don't want the "wrong" message to get across. But it's not good writing. I'm not saying this because of my political views, and I hope that this doesn't turn into some political debate, because that's not the point.

They could have played a similar note, if Oliver said that if they're caught with a gun in their apartment, he could be sent back to prison. But they didn't even hint at that, so I'm not going to bother with that angle.


Also, I still don't care about the flash forward. Honestly, I'm sick of Felicity in the present. The fact that we know *know* she's still getting the spotlight 20 years from now doesn't help my interest in the show.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

TemporalFlux wrote:

I just realized that I haven’t posted my off-the-wall Flash theory of the season.  Meta-tech?  First appearance was the cell phone hacking people’s brains.  Flashed a purple glow in their eyes. Is the true villain of the season the Kilg%re?

On the subject of Temporal Flux's theories, I remain absolutely convinced that HR of Season 3 was indeed the so-futuristic-his-powers-seem-magical villain Abra Kadabra. I realize that we've been through Season 4 and are now in Season 5 and at this point, barely anyone even remembers HR -- but I still feel certain that any week now, we'll be getting an episode where HR reveals he faked his death and he is indeed Abra Kadabra. Maybe even in the ELSEWORLDS crossover. Temporal Flux will be proven right. It's coming. I feel confident. I feel sure. I felt sure last season too.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Does anyone think there's a chance that the flash forwards aren't really the future, and young William has been kidnapped and hooked up to some wacky machine in order to help someone infliltrate Felicity's world? (I say Felicity because Oliver appears to be totally irrelevant to that storyline)

I'm just trying to figure out how, without using time travel, these flash forwards could possibly add anything useful to the series. I still don't see a point in them. It seems like a lot of filler, to give other actors more time off.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Informant wrote:

Does anyone think there's a chance that the flash forwards aren't really the future, and young William has been kidnapped and hooked up to some wacky machine in order to help someone infliltrate Felicity's world? (I say Felicity because Oliver appears to be totally irrelevant to that storyline)

Yup! And it’s likely HR Wells holding William in this dream world and HR will reveal himself as being Abra Kadabra. Any day now. Temporal Flux is always right about such things.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I know they said it's "our" Roy, but I'm still very confident that it's Earth 2.

And did you guys notice that Smallville's Green Arrow showed up in the Earth 90 scene?  If they're going to introduce a version of Barry Allen that doesn't look like Grant Gustin, I'd love a Smallville crossover.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Team ups are already happening off screen!

http://www.kryptonsite.com/stephen-amel … rosenbaum/

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I wonder where the writers are going with having Thawne address Nora as "Dawn," the name of Barry's daughter in the comic books. Is it simply a nod to the source material while noting that, in this version of the timeline, Barry naming his daughter after his murdered mother makes more sense? Or is it a hint that Nora isn't who she claims to be?

**

So, how do we feel about THE FLASH in Season 5? I think it isn't terrible and it isn't great, creating a muted version of what made the first two seasons strong, dodging most of the weaknesses of Season 3 but largely missing the strengths of Season 4. Season 1 created a wide and ominous sense of myth around Barry's destiny and future; Season 4 has brought in Nora, but despite her establishing Barry's future disappearance, there hasn't been much action on trying to prevent it, so the danger and peril is somewhat lacking.

Season 2 had a truly disturbing villain in Zoom and Season 4 did a great job of having Barry face a villain whose threat wasn't in speed but rather intelligence. Season 5 has brought in Cicada -- and Cicada, despite a tragic backstory, is simply a thug with a magic knife.

Seasons 3 - 4 brought in new characters with HR and Ralph as comic relief; Season 5 has introduced Nora and she's not terrible but not great. The show has done some interesting things with Barry and Iris finding themselves parents before having produced any actual children, but Nora's a mixed bag. There are some episodes where she's a splendid character and student under Barry and some where her whininess towards Iris is just obnoxious.

Season 3 began the approach of having Tom Cavanagh play everything for laughs, losing the menace and wisdom of his Season 1 - 2 incarnations. Season 4 has found an average point between Cavanagh being a joke and being useful; Sherloque Wells has one of Cavanagh's terrible accents but is being scripted as an actual character.

Ultimately, Season 5 has found a gentle midpoint between the extremes of previous seasons and is therefore extremely middling. I sometimes wonder how we'd feel if we'd gotten to Season 5 of SLIDERS with Quinn, Wade, Rembrandt, Arturo, Vancouver filming and Tracy Torme still on the series; can you imagine feeling that alt-universe concepts are a bit played out, that the original foursome have run out of interesting conflicts and arguments and that a desperate shakeup is in order? I can't, but I wonder if it'd be anything like Season 5 of THE FLASH.

**

I've been pretty happy with Arrow for Seasons 5 - 6 and 7 is turning out well enough. SUPERGIRL seemed to hit a rough patch last year when they threw Andrew Kreisberg out of the studio (and probably lost his scripts and stories as well), but has rebounded nicely this year. LEGENDS remains funny. THE FLASH is acceptably mediocre.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

To be fair, I enjoy all the shows.  I'm not hate-watching any of them.  I still think it's a little bizarre that Supergirl has stayed on Earth 38, but maybe some of this Crisis-level stuff will end with them all on one merged Earth.  At times, Supergirl doesn't really feel like a part of the Arrowverse, and I think that's strange, if only because I think the worlds mesh really well when they're combined.

I think Flash is fine.  The problem is that they've really boxed themselves in a few places.  Barry and Iris are together so they're not really able to work with that angle anymore.  Caitlin's character has been muddled so much that I'm not 100% what's up with her and Killer Frost (at this point, there doesn't seem to be much, if any, difference in the "separate" characters).  Cisco is fun but they don't do a ton with him, especially now that Gypsy is gone, and any other romance plot will probably follow a similar line.  We all feel like the Tom Cavanaugh situation isn't sustainable.  And with villains, they have this weird line they walk where they don't really know how to do action sequences with the Flash.  If it's a speed villain, the "action sequences" end up being CGI races.  If it's a non-speed villain, the plan has either been to power-up the guy (DeVoe) or power down the heroes (Cicada). 

But even then, I don't think Season Five has really established why Cicada is a threat.  He's literally wounded, and he doesn't have a backstory that indicates that he'd be an incredible fighter.  I don't seen any reason why Oliver couldn't beat him fairly easily.  I'm also not 100% sure why Barry didn't drag Cicada 1000 miles away once his spear was taken away.  Everyone just sorta stood around until he got it back, even when they knew it was coming back.  The Killer Frost solution is good for the characterization on the show, but in story, to not even try Oliver is weird.  And now with the crossover, to not use Kara or Clark is weird (as their powers are, also, not related to Dark Matter).

I agree with your thoughts on Arrow, Legends, and Supergirl.  They're all watchable and fun, if not deep or outstanding in any way.

************************

I only watched the first part of the crossover, but I thought it was interesting.  I still wish that it wasn't a body-switching thing.  I feel like, for some reason, they want this to be impactful.  There were still references to Cicada and Oliver going to prison and Kara quitting the DEO, and it seems like this "darkness in Barry" is something that might play out at some point down the line.  Also, I don't know if this is intentional, but it seems that Iris really doesn't like Oliver (if not outright hates him).  Is that something that's been played with before?

But, honestly, I don't think these episodes even really need to be in continuity.  It's why I was really hoping for some sort of "Elseworld" story where Oliver's parents never died and he ended up with speed.  And maybe instead of ending up with the Wests, Barry ends up an orphan who ends up on Lian Yu.  If they wanted to do Batwoman stuff, have him end up with the Waynes (they adopt Barry after their son Bruce was killed by a gunman in an alley).

I think that way, they wouldn't have to worry about any sort of continuity, and they could've had a lot of fun with it.  They could've even played around with some of the other characters.  Imagine Cisco as Speedy, Caitlin as a Black Canary, etc.  Then imagine Felicity as Killer Frost, Diggle as Vibe.  Maybe you bring back Lance in the Joe role, or you bring back Merlyn as the Wells/Thawne role.

That's sorta the fun of Elseworlds stories to me.  So the Monitor changes everything, and either Supergirl comes to investigate, or you throw her into the mix too (maybe it's Kara who was adopted by the Waynes - heck, maybe she's the Batwoman).

The way they did it was a bit lazy, I think.  Still fun.  But lazy.

Although it was basically all forgiven when I heard "Somebody saaaaaaaaaavvvvveeee me" with that overhead shot of Smallville and the Kent Farm.  They get it.