Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Last night's episode had some weird conflict.  It eventually worked its way out, but I thought the whole thing was bizarre for the first 90%.

Cisco is healed from his encounter with Cicada, but he sorta liked not having his powers and the troubles that resulted from that.  He wants to be a normal person, and he thinks he might have found a way to "cure" people of their metahuman abilities.  He's excited, and Caitlin hates hit.  She (and then Killer Frost) decide that he's making a huge decision, and Killer Frost ruins his work.  Caitlin likes having Killer Frost around and doesn't want her cured.  She points out that metahuman abilities (including Barry's and their own) have done a lot of good.  Cisco counters that a ton of people have powers because of their mistake, and that a cure could easily correct a lot of lives that could be created.

Eventually, they agree that they can work on a cure, but they won't force it on anyone.  Which neither of them wanted.  Their whole conflict was resolved because they actually had a conversation.

It was so bizarre.  Cisco, at no point, is talking about creating a cure and then forcing anyone to use it.  Caitlin simply assumes that either Cisco is going to pour the cure in the water supply or go door do door hunting and curing metahumans.  It's mostly her fault for jumping to conclusions, but Cisco could've easily talked her down by talking about how it'd still be a choice.

It was a very lazy conflict just for the sake of a conflict.  I do like the idea of Cisco potentially curing his powers.  I also think a metahuman cure could end up being a powerful storyline.  If it were possible to cure powers, would every supervillain have their powers removed immediately by the police?  Would that be legal?  Would people on Team Flash push for that to be used against villains that are in the pipeline (is anyone being held in the pipeline at this point?).

Could we, at some point, see CCPD armed with "cure weapons" like in X-Men: The Last Stand?

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

It is weird. Cisco's special ability has mostly been replaced by a tiny prop that anyone can use whenever they want, and now they're bringing in the idea of a cure. Is Carlos Valdes leaving the show or something?

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Team Flash had Cicada cornered and they swapped out Killer Frost, their only weapon, for Caitlin, who ran up to the stabbed woman to say "we need to get her to a hospital."

Ralph could've done that....

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I wrote that during the episode.  When I finished it, I still have a lot of problems with Cicada as a bad guy.  He's essentially worthless without the dagger.  So I don't understand why Barry doesn't just speed him to the Pipeline whenever he has the opportunity.  If you really want to beat him up, you can do it there.  Or if it'd cut through the Pipeline, run him to the other side of the Earth - the dagger only moves about 20 miles an hour - he'd have plenty of time to beat up / interrogate Cicada before the dagger gets anywhere near him.

Or just run to Earth 2.  Or any other Earth - the dagger can't follow him there.

And I still don't understand why Oliver can't beat him.  He's literally just a guy, and Barry was able to keep up with him for a while without his powers.  Oliver should be able to crush him, and his dagger won't do any good (no more than a regular sword).  Granted, Nora was the one who told him that Oliver failed, and they just listened to her.  So maybe Oliver absolutely could, and she lied because defeating him too early would mess with her plan.

I don't know, I just have a lot of problems with him as a villain.  I think he's an interesting-enough character with believable motivations, but I don't see any reason why he's any harder to defeat than any other Meta of the week.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Yeah, there are a ton of problems. And they really could have given better reasons for not calling Joe or Cisco back this week. Nora was horribly, horribly injured, and people were being slaughtered left and right. Still, Cisco's time is better spent sitting alone in a lab somewhere, working on his pet project?

I really think that they'd be better off just having mini-arcs for these villains sometimes. Stretching them out for an entire season makes everyone look stupid, but there could have been a solid six episode arc with Cicada.

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Yeah, that's not a terrible idea.  I also wouldn't mind a situation where Team Flash either doesn't fight or doesn't find out about the Big Bad until the end of the season.  Maybe a situation where the Big Bad has a handful of lieutenants (mini-bosses) that the team has to fight and take down throughout the season and then the big fight is only one fight and it's in the finale.

It reminds me of Jessica Jones.  Killgrave was a great villain, but there were a handful of times in the season when he should've been captured.  And the only reason he wasn't was random chance or massive stupidity on the part of the heroes.  Cicada is an interesting villain, but there's no reason why he shouldn't have been captured by now.  It's insane levels of incompetence that has allowed him to still be out there.

I find myself re-writing stories where I don't feel there is enough meat.  If it were me, I'd do it differently.

Cicada was an elite soldier or assassin.  It's the same backstory where he ends up with this kid and then he grows to love her and then she's horribly injured.  Makes sense.  So now he's Cicada, and he's killing metas.  He has the dagger to even the playing field, and because he's this elite fighter, no one stands a chance against him.  Early in the season, they fight him, and he kicks all their butts.  "Kills" Cisco, cripples XS, whatever.  So they reach out to Oliver for help, but he's in prison.  So Oliver sends someone - say Thea or Roy or someone that Oliver has trained.  And so that person is the guest star for the season, and he/she starts training Team Flash on how to fight in a "fair" fight.  So now you have Barry, who's always gotten by with his super speed, getting Oliver-level training.  So they train harder.  If you want to up the stakes, maybe Cicada goes toe to toe with Oliver's trainer, and Cicada comes out on top.

It would force Barry and the team to face the idea that, without their powers, they're essentially helpless.  Maybe instead of the dagger being an actual dagger, maybe it's embedded in his body so there's no way to "get the dagger away from him?" so there's not that little trick that Team Flash can do but fail at five times.  There's no "the one guy you never caught" or anything like that - if this is all about Thawne using a different guy to be Cicada, that's fine.  Just have Cicada be this dumb villain that Nora barely remembers.  He was a joke, not unlike any of the hundred villains Barry takes out week to week.  The fact that he's this badass now is the scary part.

That's how I'd approach it.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Another idea: What if a large chunk of the population actually sided with Cicada? What if he wasn't a mustache twirling bad guy, but someone who was actually making a dent in the number of meta-related crimes? He's killing people, and that's illegal, but is it more illegal than, say, what Oliver Queen did?

And yet, our team is still made up of metas, so they might be targets. At the very least, Killer Frost would be a target, because she has a genuine history with the other side.

Please be informed that the political, scientific, sociological, economic and legal views expressed in Informant's posts and social media accounts do not reflect any consensus of Sliders.tv.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

That'd be them stealing a storyline from Supergirl wink

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Would it? Man, I have no idea what's going on with those shows anymore. The Flash is the only one I'm still going back to at this point.

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1,030 (edited by Slider_Quinn21 2019-01-25 09:01:14)

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I think Arrow is still fine.  They're actually re-introducing the Suicide Squad under a different name which could be interesting (but if they're going to do that....why not get Oliver out that way?).  I think the idea of Oliver as a police-sanctioned vigilante is interesting.

The flash-forwards are still weird, but I don't hate the side characters as much as you.  I'm still betting on Earth 2, but I'm sticking with that theory because I don't really think it makes any sense for these flash-forwards to be canon for Earth 1.

But to answer your question, yes.  The principle story in Supergirl this year is that "alien immigration" is a huge topic in the US, and a large segment of the population (not sure if it's the majority or a vocal minority - I'm sure it's been said) is against her.  The DEO has been taken over by anti-alien members of the government, and Supergirl has been working on her own.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I was planning to go back and watch the rest of the season, but the press coverage of the return is what turned me off. They were promoting the new Green Arrow, the flash-forwards, Diaz, and the new Team Arrow characters, and I realized that I just didn't care about anything that they were saying. Most of the articles that I saw didn't even mention Oliver, who is the actual star of the show.

The show hasn't been right for a long time, and they keep doubling down on everything that's wrong with it. So I decided to catch up on a Million Little Things and season 2 of Patriot, and take a break from Arrow. Possibly a long break. Possibly a forever break.


As for the Supergirl thing, I think the solution is just to cancel Supergirl, so The Flash can have a compelling villain without it seeming like a retread. smile

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Supergirl, Flash, Arrow, and Legends of Tomorrow have all been renewed for another season.

So unless they pull off something crazy, I don't think Oliver is dying in the crossover smile

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I foresee - the search for Oliver Queen!

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Arrow could always get a shortened season, right?


I haven't been following the Arrow story, but I want to add my prediction:

The writers go crazy with the flash-forward, and then it's all undone after the Crisis event.

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I must've missed something.

When Oliver turned himself in, he took credit for being the Green Arrow *and* the Hood?  And that became public knowledge?  Is Roy still dead according to the public?  And Rene was outed as Wild Dog, but none of the others were unmasked publicly?

I did think the episode was cool, although if they were going to go with the documentary angle, they needed to stick with it.  The fact that it started as a documentary and then went in and out was weird.  Getting back so many people was fun, though.  We even got a Huntress reference.

1,036 (edited by Slider_Quinn21 2019-02-13 09:17:06)

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

So was the Star City Slayer supposed to be a homicidal version of Informant? big_smile

Wanted to get rid of Oliver's team.  Wanted to get rid of Felicity.  Wanted Oliver to work by himself.  Said everyone else was making things worse and making him soft.

big_smile

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Did anyone else find it bizarre that Sherloque Wells was wandering the streets of Central City, getting coffee at Jitters, and wearing the face of known, self-confessed murderer Harrison Wells?

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

ireactions wrote:

Did anyone else find it bizarre that Sherloque Wells was wandering the streets of Central City, getting coffee at Jitters, and wearing the face of known, self-confessed murderer Harrison Wells?

I think the show's essentially given up any sort of logic when it comes to the original Harrison Wells or even Eobard.  Essentially, Eddie's sacrifice is a complete waste.

I didn't really like Cause and XS all that much.  I think time loop episodes are generally pretty fun, but I found it as just an excuse to have meaningless death scenes for all our heroes and to dress up Carlos Valdes in funny costumes like they let Tom Cavanagh.

I'm willing to buy into the fate aspect that XS wasn't going to be able to save everyone - someone had to die and no matter who she saved, someone would die.  But I don't understand how Cicada was able to figure out who to go after.  Logic would say that he'd start out looking for Iris (as he did in the original variation) and then move on to Ralph or Cecile or whoever depending on what happened.

But he doesn't really do this - for the timeline to work the way that it does, Cicada essentially has to know who's going to be alone/separate and go after them immediately.  Otherwise, enough time would pass for Barry to get out of the speed force.

Not only that, how the heck were there 52 variations?  They had one where each of them die, and then she protects them all but Cecile dies.  But the next attempt should've been Nora going back to grab Cecile and watching them all.  What's Cicada's move after that?  Kidnap someone random?  Try to find Joe or Wally?  Keeping everyone (including Cecile) at STAR Labs should've been the solution, but either Nora didn't try it or she did and the writers didn't bother to come up with how Cicada still wins.

I also thought it was weird that Nora:

1. didn't want to tell everyone about the time loop.  the first time she tells them, they win.
2. didn't try to go on the offensive.
3. went to the rooftop at all.  I know she wants to help, but she didn't accomplish anything, and if she dies...everyone potentially dies.

It was just a mess of an episode.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I enjoyed the episode. i don’t have any answer to your plotholes. I also can’t really *defend* the episode except to say that I’ve been approaching THE FLASH with much lower expectations. If you’ll recall SUPERNATURAL’s “The French Mistake” where Bob Singer shrugs at a mediocre script and mutters that it’s Season 6, that’s how I feel about THE FLASH in Season 5. The first two seasons were a deep dive into the seemingly limitless possibilities of superspeed; Season 3 struggled to reiterate and expand on the formula, Season 4 attempted to change it up and Season 5 suggests THE FLASH is simply out of tricks.

They do over 20 episodes a year; they’ve run out of neat speed powers or perceptual tricks or procedural inversions or superhero subversions. So now they’re replaying some of their greatest hits (time loops) with Nora as a fresh perspective by letting Nora take the lead (which also frees Grant Gustin up to shoot crossvers?) and... I don’t think Jessica Parker Kennedy is the right actress. They chose her back in Season 4 for cameo roles, probably not anticipating the decision to bump her up to a regular cast member, they probably didn’t evaluate her skills and I don’t think Kennedy can carry THE FLASH as a leading character or at least not this one.

Casting new characters on THE FLASH has been a mixed bag. Wally was written as a youthful, volatile hellraiser and they cast the low-key and quiet Keiynan Lonsdale. Nora is supposed to be a hyperactive daredevil whose name is pronounced “excess” — and they have chosen a performer who is again, like Lonsdale, a low-key, quiet actor. Kennedy has played many troubled teens in the past, but on both SMALLVILLE and THE SECRET CIRCLE, her characters were sullen, withdrawn, introverted, suspicious.

In contrast, Nora is written to be unrepressed, angry, extroverted — and it’s just not really playing to Kennedy’s strengths. Kennedy is fine, but she doesn’t bring the exuberent, exhillarated delight that Grant Gustin creates for Barry’s joy in running. The sense of seeing THE FLASH’s past wonders through new eyes isn’t coming through at all.

Kennedy manages to hit one consistent note for Nora — innocence — and there’s a weird mismatch to it whether she’s lying to her mother or taking orders from Eobard Thawne because Jessica Parker Kennedy is clearly a grown-ass woman, not a little girl. Kennedy, at this stage, is probably better at playing characters who are older and more jaded; Nora’s being written like a teenager and Kennedy has aged out of that as most young performers do.

So — Season 5 of THE FLASH... it’s okay. They’ve made Sherloque a proper character, I like that. They have Eobard Thawne potentially seeking redemption, that’s cool. They’ve got Caitlin and Killer Frost working with an interesting dual identity. They’ve got fun stuff for Cisco. They’ve had great moments for Barry and Iris. There’s a lot of good stuff there and I have accepted that THE FLASH is never going to be the imaginative, inventive series it was before because they’ve used up all their tricks.

The only solution I have isn’t even a solution — I think that Season 1 built the Team Flash concept entirely too quickly. By episode 2, Barry had confidantes, a support staff, the STAR Labs facilities, access at the police station. I probably would have made Barry a trainee at the police lab instead of seemingly in charge (as the sole police scientist for the entire city?). I would have had the team be no team at all until the end of Season 1. The attitude in the writer’s room, however — they didn’t want to take things slow on a series about The Flash. And I understand that, but now their well is dry.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Yeah, I'm not 100% sure what to do with the Arrowverse.  I think if I were in charge, I'd move the Crisis on Infinite Earths crossover to the end of next season.  I'd make all the storylines in the Arrowverse (save Supergirl) about the coming crisis, and I'd have it end with Barry disappearing, Oliver dying, and the Legends breaking apart (maybe the crisis also ends their ability to time travel).  And the multiverse would collapse into one universe where Supergirl now exists.  I'd allow each show to have their series finale in their respective shows to deal with Oliver's death, Barry's disappearance (and possible hint at a return), and the breakup of the Legends.

You'd have a Supergirl show and a Batwoman show (if that comes through).  Since the network would still want content, I'd do one more show.  Maybe they could spin off John Diggle as a Green Lantern or do something like Blue Beetle or Booster Gold.  I'd love a Nightwing show, but it's probably too similar to Batwoman (although I'd love to see Dick end up on that show).  And finally make a decision on whether or not Black Lightning should be a part of the universe or not.  If we need another show, I'd do the anthology series.  Maybe start with someone like Cisco or Caitlin or someone from Team Arrow or the Legends (Ray Palmer), but move forward with other stuff.  Maybe one season could even see the return of Barry Allen or Oliver Queen or someone like that.

I don't see any need to end the Arrowverse but maybe ending some of the shows in it isn't a bad idea.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I think ARROW had a great Season 5 and Season 6 in returning to the street crime origins of Seasons 1 - 2. I’m very happy with this year as well (sorry, Informant). I’m really enjoying LEGENDS’ craziness and zaniness. SUPERGIRL is also having a fabulous year. And all these shows could run indefinitely: ARROW can forever explore Oliver’s trauma by having each villain represent some aspect of his dysfunctionality and poor human resources skills, LEGENDS is about misfits and SUPERGIRL’s refugee metaphor is evergreen.

In contrast, THE FLASH doesn’t have that boundless applicability. THE FLASH has never identified a central metaphor. It’s not about growing up too fast; it’s not about trying to keep pace with the forward motion of the world around us; it doesn’t really have anything to SAY that’s specific to superspeed. THE FLASH has been about Barry trying to resolve his childhood trauma and embrace his future destiny as a legendary superhero. As of the Season 2 finale, it’s all been done.

I don’t have an encyclopedic knowledge of FLASH comics, but the era I read and enjoyed most was when Wally West was the Flash; Barry was dead. Writer Mark Waid was not the first writer to script Wally as the Flash, but Waid identified a central character flaw in Wally to explore in nearly every story: Wally was impatient. It was his greatest weakness.

He was always in a hurry; he was always leaping before looking; he was constantly underinformed and unprepared. At the end of Waid’s run, he explained that he had loved writing THE FLASH because Waid himself had been a deeply impatient person. But, in recent years, Waid had learned how to be patient and as a result, he no longer felt the intimate connection to Wally West that he had before.

THE FLASH as a TV series never found a central point of the human condition. Impatience was not one of Barry’s failings aside from Oliver pointing out that Barry needed to review environments before entering. THE FLASH pinned all its content on the Flash mythology. It worked for two seasons. Now it’s just going in circles. But, I mean — it’s not like the pure frustration of HEROES or the tedium of IRON FIST. THE FLASH has accomplished all of its goals... and it keeps getting renewed every year and has more hours to fill.

One show Informant and I have agreed to disagree on: ANGEL. ANGEL, like THE FLASH, was a paranormal procedural. However, ANGEL periodically shook up its format. Season 1 was about helping a weekly guest-star; Season 2 shifted into Angel’s dysfunction breaking up the team; Season 3 was about Angel accepting a new role as an employee working for the people he used to lead; Season 4 was a 22-episode movie about Angel and his friends facing the Antichrist; Season 5 was about trying to turn the evil law firm they’d fought for four years into a force for good.

Informant argues that ANGEL lost its way by abandoning the Season 1 template and that’s a fair criticism, but I think THE FLASH demonstrates what can happen when a show refuses to build regular evolution into its formula; it can become stagnant, tired, repetitive, predictable and every formula risks becoming formulaic.

I dunno. THE FLASH would benefit from a rest. That said, I’m always happy to see Danielle Panabaker and Tom Cavanagh working.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

ireactions wrote:

I dunno. THE FLASH would benefit from a rest. That said, I’m always happy to see Danielle Panabaker and Tom Cavanagh working.

Aside - do you like Danielle Panabaker as a actress?  Because while I agree that Caitlin's character is currently one of the more interesting, I don't really find her that great as a performer.  I don't' think the show is to blame for this, either.  She was also sorta stumbling through the only movie performance I've ever seen her in - a movie called Time Lapse.

I don't have any problem with her as a person.  She seems to have a great passion for her work and the fans, and I think that's great.  But, at times, it feels like she's simply reading lines without doing any real acting at all.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I actually feel the same way about Panabaker that I do about Cavanagh -- a very talented actor whose material has been increasingly muddled over the course of five years. Cavanagh's issue: the writers started writing his stand-up comedy impressions instead of writing his character and Cavanagh's comedy voices are not a fully-dimensionalized character. Panabaker's issue: the writing has lost Caitlin's original voice and the current characterization isn't a logical fit.

I've never been entirely clear on WHY the series named the character "Caitlin Snow," the name of the DC Comics supervillain Killer Frost. THE FLASH's procedural template did not require a future supervillain on Barry's team nor did they write her as one. Caitlin was a biologist, a scientist, a medical doctor, specifically Barry's personal physician. In Seasons 1 - 2, she was written with a crisply scientific, result-oriented characterization and Panabaker did a great job of selling Caitlin's medical acumen and the perpetual trauma of seeing Ronnie die followed by her betrayal by Hunter Zolomon. Because her name was Caitlin Snow, the expectation was that she'd become a villain -- which wouldn't have made any sense; Panabaker was contracted as a regular. The fate of most if not all villains: they are defeated and written out.

Season 2 showed an alternate universe Caitlin as Killer Frost. That really should have been the end of it. But with the writers looking for FLASHPOINT consequences, they decided in Season 3 to make the prime Caitlin into Killer Frost and... it didn't work. There was no explanation for where this Killer Frost personality came from; it had nothing to do with the onscreen Caitlin. There was no reason for why the Killer Frost persona would be so homicidal and malevolent; it didn't reflect or invert Caitlin's desires. Killer Frost was a villain of the week who kept coming back and was played by one of the regulars and inhabiting the place of a lead cast member -- and it didn't make any sense.

And with Killer Frost being a murderous loon, Panabaker was required to make the Caitlin persona distinct. And without a clear line of characterization as to how Caitlin and Killer Frost were even connected beyond sharing the same body, Panabaker unfortunately flattened Caitlin into generic, guileless innocence while Killer Frost was violent and volatile. With Season 4, the writers remembered that Panabaker was on contract, so they toned Killer Frost down and since then have written Caitlin as a member of Barry's team.

Unfortunately, they've lost Caitlin's voice with all the changes and awkward rollbacks; they've lost the Caitlin/Barry relationship with Barry as her patient. They've lost Caitlin's sense of tragedy and loss because her arc is now focused on this dual persona. They've lost the focus on Caitlin's biology background, so she's just a science girl alongside Cisco. Panabaker's performance is no longer emphasizing Caitlin's scientific nature; instead, she and the scripts are focused on making her Caitlin performance *unlike* Killer Frost and when you define a character by what she isn't, there's no sense of who she is.

Many aspects of THE FLASH have become dulled and faded due to five years of adhering to a formula, occasionally threatening sweeping change but never really wanting to lose anyone from the STAR Labs hallways, and both Caitlin and Harrison Wells have suffered for it.

I've always liked Panabaker. One of my favourite children's movies is READ IT AND WEEP where young high school student Jamie writes a daydream journal featuring a fantasy version of herself, Isabelle ("Is"), who is sharper, wittier, stronger and more well-groomed and who defeats all the classmates and teachers who annoy her. When Jamie's daydream novel is actually printed in the school paper, it becomes popular, is published as a successful novel and Jamie starts having lengthy conversations with her fictitious self, Is, and Is starts taking over Jamie's life.

Jamie is played by Kay Panabaker and Danielle, Kay's older sister, plays Is as the taller, prettier, more self-assured image of what Jamie would like to be. It's a fascinating performance where Kay and Danielle often swap places in the same scene to indicate how the Is-persona is starting to dominate Jamie. Panabaker was also in SKY HIGH playing a superheroine who could control plant life. I'm not saying READ IT AND WEEP and SKY HIGH are cinematic masterpieces -- they're low budget children's movies, but I grew up with Danielle Panabaker and she'll naturally always feel like the cool older sister to me... or, in Caitlin's case, my personal medical doctor.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I watched TIME LAPSE and Slider_Quinn21 is right. Danielle Panabaker's performance is acceptable for the first half, but there comes a point when her character, Callie, is watching people get murdered in her living room and having a gun put to her face and Panabaker's reactions are muted and sleepy. I'm not sure what's going on here, but in an interview, the director mentioned that the actors all had very different attitudes to how to rehearse and they had extremely limited time to film as the apartment in which they were filming was scheduled for demolition.

TIME LAPSE reminded me of one of my niece's student films, actually -- there was a key moment when an character was supposed to react with terror and shock in response to a ghost, but my niece was shy and didn't tell the actress to emote and failed to provide a cue and therefore never got the shot she needed. Since then, she's learned to be clear and assertive. TIME LAPSE is full of little moments where the direction and the performances just aren't capturing the details needed to convey the situation.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

The flash, always intended to have killer frost be involved same with Firestorm, as the Flash universe was going to use the Firestorm universe for a bigger rouge gallery.

Firestorm. became less involved when they decided he was going to go full time in legends of Tommorrow so the recast happened, with Jax taking over for Ronnie, The Caitlin story now got muddled as their plans changed.

I remeber from interviews during season 1 that they were very aware of the killer frost connection and waiting to use her.

On Tom, do agree having 5 different versions

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

They were playing a little mix and match too.  In the comics, the first Killer Frost was a love interest of Martin Stein, but he rejected her which led her to her fate as Killer Frost.  Having Caitlin as Ronnie’s love interest, I would guess they were setting up a potential love triangle if they introduced Firehawk down the line; and that could then lead into Killer Frost.  But actors leave and plans change and orphan ideas live on.

I am surprised we haven’t seen Firehawk pop up in some form (especially since we did see Henry Hewitt / Tokamak whose experiments created her).

http://firestormfan.com/images/firehawk_ww85_1000.jpg

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

ireactions wrote:

I watched TIME LAPSE and Slider_Quinn21 is right. Danielle Panabaker's performance is acceptable for the first half, but there comes a point when her character, Callie, is watching people get murdered in her living room and having a gun put to her face and Panabaker's reactions are muted and sleepy. I'm not sure what's going on here, but in an interview, the director mentioned that the actors all had very different attitudes to how to rehearse and they had extremely limited time to film as the apartment in which they were filming was scheduled for demolition.

TIME LAPSE reminded me of one of my niece's student films, actually -- there was a key moment when an character was supposed to react with terror and shock in response to a ghost, but my niece was shy and didn't tell the actress to emote and failed to provide a cue and therefore never got the shot she needed. Since then, she's learned to be clear and assertive. TIME LAPSE is full of little moments where the direction and the performances just aren't capturing the details needed to convey the situation.

ireactions' dedication to knowledge (even if it's just pop culture knowledge) is astonishing sometimes (and I mean that in an honestly positive, complimentary way).  I made an off-hand reference to a made-for-digital movie, and he tracks the movie down, watches with analytically, and even goes out of his way to find behind-the-scenes interviews that might explain why some of the acting is off.

With 100% sincerity, a tip of my hat to you. smile

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

To be honest, I’ve been wondering if you might be onto something about Danielle Panabaker. The truth is, despite having fond memories of her in READ IT AND WEEP and SKY HIGH, I didn’t see her in anything for years until she popped up in ARROW as Caitlin and was revealed as a regular on THE FLASH. I was delighted to see her and actually confused because I’d mistakenly thought Dr. Caitlin Snow on ARROW had been a teenaged intern at STAR Labs. Panabaker had barely aged since she played a high school student in SKY HIGH.

And now, you point out she isn’t really that awesome on THE FLASH and was particularly poor in TIME LAPSE and I had to see that for myself. And you were right — Panabaker was very oddly distant in TIME LAPSE. Following that — well, I got around to watching Panabaker in the movie GIRLS AGAINST BOYS and I still have half an hour left, but this is another movie where there’s gunslinging and people are getting shot in a living room with Panabaker standing right there and... she’s really muted and blank and detached from the scene. Again.

Panabaker isn’t explicitly *bad*, but she really isn’t selling the audience on her character going on a murder spree of her own. She doesn’t convey rage, trauma, madness or homicidal intent. She’s just low-key, thoughtful, quiet, and certainly *adequate*, but there’s more to acting than having the right facial expression.

I think of how Gillian Jacobs brings so much spontanaity and insecurity and madness to Britta or how Alison Brie infuses Annie with a neurotic precision on COMMUNITY or how Anna Torv gives Olivia Dunham a military bearing matched with a melancholy loneliness — and next to them, I’m reluctantly finding that Panabaker has the presence of a well-designed, extremely articulate shop window dummy. A magnificently built one, to be sure. She doesn’t make what’s on paper come alive as a fully-dimensionalized person.

... I’m starting to seriously question my fondness for Danielle Panabaker. I mean, in READ IT AND WEEP, i’m now remembering that it was Kay Panabaker who played most of that role and Danielle was really in specific insert shots and fantasy sequences. And SKY HIGH was really about Michael Angarano as a teen superhero with Panabaker playing a classmate who was hopelessly crushing on him. And in Seasons 1 - 2 of THE FLASH, her job was to take care of Barry, something she fixated on at times because she was mentally using him as a replacement for her deceased fiance.

Is it possible that I only like Panabaker because she was playing a pretty, besotted high school student back when I would have liked for someone who looked like Panabaker to be crushing on me? And because I wouldn’t mind having someone like Danielle Panabaker tasked with keeping me healthy and hydrated and nourished? Do I only like Panabaker because she’s pretty?

..................

Well, it could also be that Panabaker’s range just doesn’t extend to shooting people and that’s just not suited to her strengths as an actress.

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Ha, it was certainly not my intention to sour you on her.  I guess I sorta had the same process just stumbling on it on my own.  When the Flash first started, I definitely had my own little crush on Panabaker - she's very pretty and she was fun and smart and lively.  I never had any trouble buying her as a medical doctor, regardless of her age, and I thought she added to the team and wasn't just there as part of a love triangle or to be attractive.

And when my friend wanted to watch Time Lapse, I watched and was pleasantly surprised when Panabaker showed up.  "She's on the Flash!" I probably exclaimed to my friend who certainly didn't care.  And her performance in that movie was noticeable in a bad way.  And ever since then, I've been a little more attentive of her acting to see if she was bad in Time Lapse or if she's just not great.

I definitely don't want to bash her or anything.  Again, I think she's fine - she doesn't drag down scenes in the Flash, and I think I've noticed enough from her social media presence that she legitimately loves the show and the fans and wants to be great.  I think she seems to have a lot of fun playing Killer Frost, and she does a good-enough job acting the way you described (by dulling down Caitlin to make Killer Frost more lively).

It's funny, the Arrowverse generally has pretty solid actors and actresses.  I was going through the four main shows, and I struggled to come up with anyone who I thought struggled through their part.  Everyone's done a pretty good job.  So maybe, on a show with some actors who really can sell their characters, Panabaker is just okay?

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... I've decided to break up with Danielle Panabaker. I'm taking her off my list of favourite actresses. There will now be an opening for #7.

After watching TIME LAPSE and GIRLS AGAINST BOYS, I watched the FLASH pilot. My conclusion about Panabaker: she is an intensely likable performer and her smile, body language and mannerisms encourage fondness. She also has the ability to look astonishingly young; it's been 15 years since SKY HIGH and she's aged maybe five. However, her she passed through TIME LAPSE and GIRLS AGAINST BOYS with performances that were little more than variations on the same vacant stare.

The script for THE FLASH seems written specifically for Panabaker. Barry remarks on her perpetual frown; Caitlin informs him that her blank expression is because she is deeply traumatized by the particle accelerator explosion and the death of her fiance. Throughout THE FLASH, Caitlin is largely a supporting character; Panabaker is always playing off another actor and she's terrific.

She's good at developing a rapport with others, she can support her co-stars -- but she doesn't have the screen presence to carry a scene on her own the way TIME LAPSE and GIRLS AGAINST BOYS call upon her. And, watching her in other roles, the empty distance that conveyed Caitlin's grief over Ronnie and her using Barry as a substitute -- it starts to look less like an acting choice and more like an acting limitation. Even as Killer Frost, Panabaker is depending on the wig, the sound editing and the costume to play the character for her; she doesn't personify or deepen her roles.

Well, I hope you're happy, Slider_Quinn21. I'm now going to watch another often expressionless but favourite performer, Saoirse Ronan, and hope she doesn't fall off my list too.

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ireactions wrote:

Well, I hope you're happy, Slider_Quinn21. I'm now going to watch another often expressionless but favourite performer, Saoirse Ronan, and hope she doesn't fall off my list too.

Ha, I haven't seen her in much, but I thought she was great in Brooklyn.  I think you're good there.

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More rumors flying around the Arrowverse than usual.  Arrow ending after Crisis (season 8).  Legends and Supergirl on the bubble after Crisis due to continued low ratings.  A new Superman show featuring Tyler coming in to replace Supergirl.  Cisco and Caitlyn leaving Flash.

I have to say - if they want to do a major shake-up, that’s what Crisis was made for.  From the various articles I’ve read, it seems like Cisco leaving has the most weight to it.  If so, XS already name dropped his replacement at the start of this season - Ryan Choi (the successor to Ray Palmer’s Atom in the comics):

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/8/88/AllNewAtom.jpg/250px-AllNewAtom.jpg

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I think the Arrowverse could use a shakeup.  Who's the biggest death in the Arrowverse that wasn't written out?  Dr. Stein?

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Slider_Quinn21 wrote:

And I'm interested in seeing what happens with Oliver.  We were teased with TF's thought in Part 3 - both Barry and Kara were supposed to die, and they're the ones who die in the original Crisis.  Obviously Oliver made some sort of deal with the Monitor to die in their place - but does that mean that Arrow won't get renewed?  Or would they really be able to kill off Oliver mid-season, possibly on an episode of a different series?  If they announce that Arrow is going to only be 11 episodes next season, won't that be a pretty big tip-off that something is going to happen?  Or would they actually try and do a final half-season of Arrow without Oliver on it?

Well, I sorta nailed this.  Stephen Amell came out on Twitter and announced that Arrow is only coming back for 10 episodes next season.  Would put their finale around the time of the crossover.

Would they really kill off Oliver in a crossover?  Would they really make a crossover the series finale of Arrow?  Or would he die in the crossover and then the finale is aftermath?  Or would it be the opposite - the actual end of Arrow is prior to the crossover, and the crossover would be the end of his character?

Or is it all built for hype to make people believe that Oliver is actually going to die?  They could never pull off "JUST KIDDING, we're actually back for a full 23 episodes" after the crossover, but it'd be incredible to see them try that.

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I'm sad that ARROW is ending, but it makes sense on every level. I could have seen ARROW going on and on like SUPERNATURAL, but ARROW seeded a whole family of shows with THE FLASH, SUPERGIRL, LEGENDS, BLACK LIGHTNING and BATWOMAN. SUPERNATURAL will likely cease to be a going concern once Jared and Jensen retire as neither BLOODLINES nor WAYWARD SISTERS went to series; the Arrowverse doesn't need ARROW to keep going.

Season 1 of ARROW was a masterpiece of unintentional comedy, trying to do a grim and gritty Christopher Nolan movie on a SMALLVILLE budget. Season 2 found its feet as an operatic, larger than life fantasy with Felicity's regular role lending some much-needed self-awareness. Season 3 started strong until it stumbled into the nonsensical mythology of death cults and magic resurrections and what-not.

Season 4 was even more nonsensically magical with demons and telekinetics and voodoo rituals and Stephen Amell was appalled, declaring that if Season 5 didn't return to ARROW as a street-crime series, there shouldn't be an ARROW series at all. Season 5 was almost universally acclaimed as a return to form; Seasons 6 - 7 have retained that back-to-basics template and some people like it and some don't.

Stephen Amell confessed in his podcast with Michael Rosenbaum that he was tired and that it would be up to him if ARROW were to have an eighth season and he would make that decision with thought and care.

I'm glad ARROW will get a good finale. I'm glad that Stephen Amell, having launched the DC television universe, can get some well-earned rest and maybe drink beer and eat chips again. I'm grateful that ARROW introduced us all to our friends Barry and Kara and Caitlin and Iris and Cisco and Alex and Jefferson and Jennifer and Sara and Ray and Nate and Eva.

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Looks like my Earth 2 theory was wrong.

But if this is canon and Oliver is alive....I guess he won't die in the crossover?

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I can't quite figure out what the problem with THE FLASH is this season as each new episode seems to have a different set of problems. It was interesting to watch last week's FLASH and last week's ARROW. THE FLASH has spent all season plodding with low intensity towards a confrontation with Cicada, but as noted above, Cicada is simply a thug with a knife and not remotely compelling. There is no reason why Barry can't knock him out like any other freak of the week.

Last week, Nora was exposed as being in league with Thawne and it fell flat, partially because we've known for weeks and are ahead of the characters. But it also occurs to me that THE FLASH isn't really using superspeed in daring, inventive ways this year. Barry and Nora are just speeding in and out. Aside from a few isolated moments, there have been no memorable moments of exploring frozen time or manuevering through impossible situations. Even Nora's endless timeloop episode had Nora unable to stop Cicada because of what looked suspiciously like luck without the story presenting an actual no-win situation. Have the writers used up all their ideas in previous seasons? In contrast, the combat in ARROW this year is quite deliberate in creating situations that call for Oliver to use a bow and arrow.

The Barry/Iris/Nora relationship hasn't come alive. Nora is a grown woman and doesn't seem like a child. Barry's tutorials for Nora have been extremely limited and laboured and there is no sense of Barry imparting wisdom or knowledge or ability or confidence that Nora didn't already have. As a result, when Nora confesses that she's been working with Thawne, there's no warm father/daughter bond to shatter, just dialogue that has them declaring their relationship.

THE FLASH seems really slow this year. Compare that to ARROW which showed Mia Smoak's upbringing and combat training in a swift montage. The infiltration of the Glades was taut and gripping. ARROW has a propulsive energy and Katherine MacNamara gives Mia this deranged, homicidal smile before she launches into combat. ARROW has pacing, momentum, a compelling set of parent-child conflicts. THE FLASH has Barry and Nora talking about how much they like each other and Nora telling Iris how Iris has impressed her. THE FLASH has the heroes talking about how dangerous Cicada is when he's just Chris Klein with unpleasant kitchenware. THE FLASH has lost its sense of showing over telling.

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I think it would be hilarious if they went back and re-examined their strategies with Cicada after finding out about Nora.  They know that she's working with Thawne, and by putting her in the Pipeline, Barry shows that he can't trust her.

Who was the one who said that Oliver couldn't beat Cicada?  Nora.  So wouldn't it be great if they decided to ignore that, sent in Oliver, and he took out Cicada rather easily?

************

Regarding lazy use of speed, I laughed as Cicada 2 showed up, and while all the other heroes fired energy blasts of one form or another, Barry just started circling the room.  There's a thousand other things he can do, but he decided to just do a boring lightning bolt.

That being said, I've always found their use of speed to be lazy when it comes to big bad villains.  All of the big "fights" between Flash and any of his speed-based villains always ended up being some sort of race followed by two seconds of punching.

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I'm having trouble identifying with Jon Cryer's Lex Luthor.  I think he does a solid-enough job.  I'd like him to be more physically imposing, but I think he has a posture about him that's imposing enough.  I think he has the attitude right, and I think he plays it fairly well.

Am I just bothered by the goatee?

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I thought Cryer's Luthor was great, with a facade of goodwill, charm, consideration and warmth that is plainly a thin layer on top of a cruel, vicious sociopathy matched with a sincere empathy that allows him to manipulate people into doing what he wants. From telling Lena he was cruel to bring out her ambition to mentioning the prison warden's mother and bringing lobster for his fellow inmates, Luthor makes people think he cares about them while Cryer and the writing make it clear he's looking for pressure points to control them.

It was also really neat how in his second episode, Luthor reveals that he has been the villain the entire time: he manipulated President Marsdin's exposure, he saw to it that Ben Lockwood would serve as a figurehead for the humanity first movement, he's been pushing for the superhuman serum and I have to wonder if Manchester Black also factors into his plans. Cryer is terrifying. It's a relief to know that the clumsy non-actor of SUPERMAN IV has blossomed into this incredible talent and a master of his artform.

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Apparently Emily Bett Richards isn't coming back for the 10-episode season 8.

If the flash-forwards are real, Felicity is in hiding while Oliver is...somewhere.  So he could be doing something while apart from Felicity and then potentially die in the crossover.

I know Informant will be happy, but I don't really know what Arrow looks like without Felicity.

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I don’t see how you can have ARROW without the lead character’s wife, but then again, flash forwards have shown that Oliver and Felicity aren’t physically together for whatever reason, so...

I wonder why Rickards isn’t doing the last 10 episodes. I don’t think she would’ve been contracted for anything past this season as all the actors signed at most, seven year contracts, so either she didn’t want to come back or couldn’t agree on a salary or she’s in a sex cult that demands she give her full attention to human trafficking. Hopefully, she can at least be secured for guest appearances.

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People seem to think she's gone gone.  I don't know if she has some sort of problem with the writing, but I've read that she was against the writers making Felicity pregnant because she didn't want to be defined by that.  If she's been unhappy on the show, she's been less vocal about it than Candice Patton or even someone like Katie Cassidy.

It could be pay.  Maybe she wanted to get paid for a full season even though it's a half season.

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I can imagine a situation where a performer is being offered other roles in films and TV that are a better offer than a half-year job for half the money and deciding to complete her existing contract and move on. But I find it so difficult to think that Rickards won't come back for at least the finale of a show that elevated her from guest star to recurring to regular to lead -- although I find it hard to believe she won't just endure the last ten episodes. Maybe she wasn't expecting an eighth season when her contract ended at the seventh and made other plans?

I have a lot of irritation with actors who sign multi-year contracts and then complain about fulfilling their agreements, but in this case, Rickards has done her job and given notice so that she can be written out, so I can't really find fault with her aside from wishing she would just stick around for another half a year. I assume that Felicity will go into hiding and her hacker role on the team will be fulfilled by Alena Whitlock?

**

I'm not up to speed on Candice Patton and Katie Cassidy and Emily Bett Rickards' problems with the writing. What's going on there?

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I'm assuming she gave more advanced notice than yesterday because they're probably done shooting now, right?  Or, at the very least, done writing.  Again, with the flash-forwards, we know that Felicity stays in that cabin outside of town with her daughter.  If those flash forwards are canon, there's the reason for her to be gone.

One interesting question will be what time period an eighth season would take place / where season 7 ends.  Are we going to end a month or so from where we are now?  Flash forward to the cabin after Mia is born?  Or, as someone online suggested, maybe the 8th season takes place entirely in the future with the future Team Arrow.  Unless that storyline is resolved, it's something they could do.  I mean, it didn't work on Fringe, but maybe it can work here.

*****

I don't know a ton about it because, frankly, it's all quite exhausting to follow all these sects of Arrowverse fandom.  Just like there were Felicity and Laurel sects, there are also Caitlin and Iris sects.  So whenever I tried to go down the rabbit hole, everything is tainted with some form of bias, and it's hard to tell what's true and what's rumor based on assumptions from a comment that may or may not have been innocuous.  So take all this with as much salt as you'd like.

Candice - As you might know, racist assholes have been bothering Candice for her entire run on the Flash.  Whether they don't like the race-swapping or the interracial aspect, she's had to deal with a bunch of crap in what was supposed to be a fairly big break.  While she's taken it in stride, some feel that she's bothered by Iris' lack of a clear role or lack of any storyline that she can identify with.  Caitlin fans say that she can't act, and that Caitlin (despite not being the romantic lead) is the female lead of the show.  There was also some drama with Danielle Panabaker behind the scenes that I don't know anything about.  She apparently made some sort of comment that made it seem like she was the only female in the show, but I couldn't find too much about it when I just scanned twitter. 

There's been rumors that one or both of the actresses are leaving the Flash.  And rumors that Carlos Valdes is leaving.  And accusations that Grant Gustin is phoning in his performances.

Katie - The only problems with her stem from her getting killed off originally.  I know she wasn't happy about that.  What's strange is that she had that contract that was supposed to let her appear on all the shows, but I'm not sure she ever appeared on Legends after that and only appeared on Flash once.  There's apparently rumors that she might go to Legends next season.

Emily - The only thing I know is the thing she mentioned that she didn't want to see a pregnancy storyline.  From a TV Guide interview:

"I don't know if I would be interested in exploring that storyline right now with Felicity," Rickards said at the time. "I feel like she deserves a little something more than that, and I don't want that to be taken the wrong way. I'd just be interested in seeing her, I don't know, like, deal with a villain face-to-face for a consistent number of episodes."

So maybe the writers were going to make her more of a "mom" character (or worse, someone who abandons her baby to do "more fun" stuff) and that's not what she wanted to do.  So she thought if that's what they want her to do, Felicity can be that offscreen.

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WOW. I confess that Reddit is my discussion forum of choice, but the ARROW subreddit is so overrun with deranged hatred for Felicity (as opposed to Informant’s critical distaste for her) that I just avoid it. The KSite forum seems unused.

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Yeah I had no idea the same sorta stuff happened with fans of the Flash, but apparently there are about 20 sects of fans inside the Arrowverse fandom.  And they all seem to hate each other.  I fell down the rabbit hole around the time that they announced that Arrow was done after season 8.  It was a trending topic on Twitter, and I looked at the top posts about it.  I clicked on one of those posts, and I saw some infighting.  Fans of the Flash were gloating because their show was finally going to the full stage.  Arrow fans said they'd never even have a show without Arrow.

Both sides (correctly in my opinion) complained about the drop in quality on both shows.  Both blamed the crossovers for ruining the other show.

As I clicked and read, I noticed some in-fighting with the Flash too.  How Candice Patton is going to quit because of racism and writing she doesn't like.  How Carlos Valdes is going to quit.  How Candice and Danielle hate each other.  How Danielle might quit and how great that'd be for Candice.  How Grant is phoning it in.  How dumb it was that Killer Frost was in all three parts of the crossover but Iris (the FEMALE LEAD) was only in one.  I didn't see any complaints about Wells or Tom Cavanaugh's acting like we talked about.  No one seemed to have any opinion on Ralph.

It all seemed so bizarre to me.  I like the Arrowverse as much as the next guy, but I've never felt the need to pick a side.  There are still devoted fans of Barry and Caitlin getting together, and that hasn't even been referenced since season one I don't think.  And even then, it was weak.  And as I was writing, I thought of how silly that is because Barry and Iris have been the definitive Barry Allen couple for decades, and it would be a big departure for him to end up with anyone else.  But then I remembered that we actually had that happen on Arrow with Oliver ending up with Felicity over Laurel.  So maybe the "Snowbarry" people have a case.  I don't know and don't really care smile

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I mean, I was a Snowbarry fan myself. But, looking back, I now see that Danielle Panabaker isn't as awesome as I thought and she works best when paired with another actor. When asked to carry a scene, Panabaker reverts to that vacant stare in GIRLS AGAINST BOYS and TIME LAPSE. When sharing the screen with Grant Gustin, the Caitlin character had grief, trauma, loss and duty: she was Barry's personal physician and had deeply passionate feelings -- towards Ronnie, her dead fiance -- feelings which for a time were directed in Barry's direction.

There could have been something romantic, especially given that Iris was written so blandly in Season 1 as a generic female in distress. However, as Iris became a reporter, an investigator and the team leader, it became clear that Caitlin worked best as Barry's doctor and that very much took romance off the table. A doctor should never be romantically involved with the patient and if Barry and Caitlin ever acted on whatever spark was between them, she could no longer be his doctor. I think it was for the best that THE FLASH never pursued that angle regardless of whether Barry was meant to be with Iris or not. Ultimately, I really enjoy seeing Panabaker and Gustin together and their platonic friendship is vivid and compelling.

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I really liked the reveal of Nora West-Allen's origin story in the flashbacks, the team discovering her partnership with Thawne, Barry and Iris' reaction and Nora's eventual return. It provided something THE FLASH didn't have enough of in Season 3 and this year in Season 5: a sense of discovery. Too much of Season 5 has been running through what we already know about superspeed and the Flash's legacy. It was wonderful to see Nora discovering her powers for the first time and Barry and Iris having completely different reactions to Nora's friendship with Thawne.

Tom Cavanagh does incredible work at differentiating Thawne from his Season 1 incarnation and from Sherloque. Sherloque is one of Cavanagh's silly comedy accents but with a gentle yet oddly ruthless analytical mind, following the evidence wherever it goes but never seeking to cause people undue harm. Thawne has the ego and condescension of Season 1, but there's also pain and regret and the slightly feeble and unfortunate sense that being kind to Nora is going to be his only meaningful contribution to the world.

It's good. It's a shame THE FLASH didn't get into this material sooner. It's much more interesting than another villain of the week or another pointless faceoff with Cicada.

**

ARROW: I've liked ARROW a lot with Season 5 going back to basics. I've loved Seasons 6 - 7 -- but there came a point in Season 7 last week when I was appalled. Roy lost control of himself due to Lazarus Pit madness and killed two innocent security guards. So the team... cover up the murders, frame a villain for the crime and then proceed to include Roy on more missions. Are they insane? I thought reconstructing Damian Darkh's totem so he could steal it and repower himself again was stupid, but this is deranged.

Roy could lose it again and turn on the team or kill more innocent people. The team provide various reasons for why Roy can't be prosecuted: a biological attack is coming, Team Arrow cannot lose its partnership with the police department right now. I wasn't entirely clear if Roy knew the Lotus elixir had failed to treat his bloodlust or if he only discovered it after killing two security guards. But regardless, Roy should be held in Andy Diggle's old cell, not free to roam and wander. That said, there is definitely going to be some follow-up with serious consequences for the cover-up.

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THE FLASH: *sigh* And now we're back to mediocrity. Neither Cicada works as a villain. I wondered why for awhile and it's interesting to compare the Cicadas to Thawne in Season 1. Thawne could be avuncular, warm, earnest and kind. You could see him casually murdering the cast if it suited him, but you could also see him hitting Big Belly Burger for a snack. He had characterization outside his immediate need to be threatening and manipulative and cruel; he wasn't just a rasping voice who snarled threats.

In contrast, Chris Klein and Sarah Carter as the Cicadas exist to do nothing but raspily snarl threats. There was an episode of flashback for Chris Klein and it was singularly incapable in adding sympathy to Cicada probably because Klein is one of the worst actors in Hollywood today. Klein is incapable of appearing natural; he cannot even walk through a door without indicating that he is an actor trying to hit his mark and has rehearsed every movement. Sarah Carter is better, having salvaged the Alicia Baker character on SMALLVILLE and made a video game fight movie like DOA watchable, but her Cicada is just as limited.

There came a moment in this week's FLASH when I just gave up on the show -- the point where Joe has a crisis in the middle of a police station because he doesn't have the confidence to give orders. This is the veteran police detective of five years? And the reasoning behind Joe's inability to command is that Captain Singh isn't around at present, a nonsensical justification that ignores five seasons of Joe never having any difficulty providing anyone with instructions. Why is it there? It looks suspiciously like Bill Dial style padding to stretch out a script that was short a few pages. This is the first time in the history of THE FLASH that I've seen an episode clearly fail to fill its own timeslot as though extending stock footage of the speedsters a bit was not an option.

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So I'm not sure I fully understood where they're going with the Arrow finale.  And, by extension, I'm not sure where they were going with the season as a whole.  I never really bought the Ninth Circle or Emiko as a compelling villain.  In fact, part of me thought that there was going to be a revelation that she'd lied about being related to him in the first place.  I don't think the connection they tried to make between Oliver's guilt and Emiko worked.

At the end of the day, I hate bringing in a long-lost sibling this late in the game.  I don't think it worked.  I almost would've rather had the villain be someone like Huntress or even Roy.  If the whole point was that the team is what made Oliver a great hero, then show someone who tried to go Oliver's original route and it turned them on a darker path.

So where do we go from here?  It's a shortened season that seemingly ends with the crossover.  But....what's Oliver going to be doing?  Is the Monitor going to put him back on Earth in secret where he can never speak with his family?  I thought for a second, while they were wrapping things up, that he might be taking down the Ninth Circle (because that seemed to be the reason they went into hiding).

Is Season 8 going to be fully....is "galactic" the right word?  Will it be Oliver and the Monitor prepping for the Crisis?  Do we even need 10 episodes of that?  Or would it be better for Arrow to end there and have Oliver simply make his return in the Crossover?

Did season 7 give us the right closure?  Because I have a feeling that Season 8 is going to be more of an epilogue than anything.

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I’m getting the impression that Oliver is going to take on the role of Harbinger (The Monitor’s right hand in testing and recruiting people to fight the Anti-Monitor):

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harbinger_(DC_Comics)

I’m also sure it’s going to come up that the woman who became Harbinger in the comics already exists in the Arrowverse - she’s Diggle’s wife, Lyla.

If Oliver does take on the role of Harbinger, then he may also gain some powers of his own (like the ability to duplicate himself).  Regardless, it only makes sense for these last 10 episodes to all be Crisis related.  Will the other series follow suit?  I’m beginning to think Crisis really is going to be a season long thing and not just a three episode event in November.

Everybody may have the same big bad for their next season long arc.

1,073 (edited by Slider_Quinn21 2019-05-16 08:51:10)

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Yeah, I could see that.  It could be cool to do it that way, and they've definitely positioned both the Flash and Arrow to work that way.  You could even have Arrow have a mostly-new cast and have any of the Arrow cast move to the Flash full-time.

I don't think we'll see LoT involved full-time, and I'm also not sure Supergirl will go there.  I guess we'll find out after those finales.

*Edit - Legends is being held until midseason.  So there might be some aftermath from the crossover (and they might appear), but it seems like they're just skipping the whole thing.  I also forgot about Batwoman - it'd be hard not to have that show be involved, but would they want to bog down their first season with a huge event like this?

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Flash -

I didn't love this season.  I think having Thawne be the big bad was cool, but it was also frustrating that they let him go and still lost Nora.  I'm guessing Thawne got Nora's name wrong (when Barry and Nora went back in time) because she was never meant to exist?

I also wonder if they always meant to move the Crisis up, or if they overshot how long they thought these shows would go on.

Final also wonder - is Cisco leaving the show?  I know there was talk of a lot of people leaving, but I'm not sure if any of that was actually confirmed.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Slider_Quinn21 wrote:

I'm guessing Thawne got Nora's name wrong (when Barry and Nora went back in time) because she was never meant to exist?

That’s where things start to get interesting.

In the comics, Barry and Iris have twins - Don and Dawn (also called the Tornado Twins).  Dawn’s daughter is Jenni Ognats - the true XS in the comics.  Barry and Iris could meet XS again; but she would be their grand daughter and have no memory of them.

Don also went on to have a son - Bart Allen known as Impulse and later the new Kid Flash.  But Bart’s mother?  Well, Don married Meloni Thawne (a descendant of the Reverse Flash).

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Slider_Quinn21 wrote:

*Edit - Legends is being held until midseason.  So there might be some aftermath from the crossover (and they might appear), but it seems like they're just skipping the whole thing.  I also forgot about Batwoman - it'd be hard not to have that show be involved, but would they want to bog down their first season with a huge event like this?

There's an image from the CW Upfronts that said that the Crossover would be 5 hours and "2 quarters"

Since it's a financial meeting, I have to assume they mean two financial quarters.  Since it's 5 hours, it would have to include all 5 connected shows (including Batwoman), and the picture on the image also would indicate this (as both Sara and Mick were in the picture with Batwoman, Kara, Barry, and Oliver).  Since LoT was held until midseason, that also makes sense.

The crossover might start in November, have a big cliffhanger at some point, and conclude in January or February.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

There's been no announcement about Carlos Valdes leaving the show. I assume he'll be back as Cisco. Season 5 of THE FLASH was very strange and oddly deficient. I wonder why. It's odd to chart THE FLASH's creative decline from Seasons 3 - 5, much like SLIDERS.

Season 3 crashed hard. Season 3 was attempting to continue the same successes of Seasons 1 - 2: a new turn on the Flash mythology with the Flashpoint timeline, another villain from the Flash's future -- but the episodes were not written well enough to capitalize on Savitar being a time remnant of Barry or how Flashpoint had warped the lives of Barry's friends. Despite spending all of Season 3 piling guilt on Barry, the main villain of Season 3 had nothing to do with any decision Barry had ever made onscreen; Savitar was a time remnant from some future event that we'd never seen.

There was the sense that the showrunners had gone from running ARROW to running ARROW and THE FLASH and LEGENDS OF TOMORROW and SUPERGIRL. Every year, there was one show that seemed to receive the least attention and suffer the most as a result: LEGENDS' first season was clumsy and formulaic; ARROW's fourth season drifted too far from street-level heroics; SUPERGIRL's first season featured two mutually exclusive takes on Kara as either a college student or a late 30s reporter. And THE FLASH's third season was painfully undercooked. Eventually, there was some internal rearranging and each show had its own dedicated showrunner.

Season 4 of THE FLASH stepped up: there was a shift to more comedy (that rubbed some the wrong way), a return to familiarity by making Harry Wells a regular, and in a clever turn of plotting, Season 4 had the Flash facing a villain whose intellect made Barry's speed useless and irrelevant. Season 4 progressively upped the situation as Barry seemed hopelessly outmatched by the Thinker, an antagonist who could match Team Flash's brainpower, who would later augment intelligence with Sylar-esque levels of power. And then came the finale where... the Thinker is abruptly unplugged and the story switched to punching a big rock falling out of the sky. It was an adequate end to Season 4, but something seemed to go off track.

Then we come to Season 5 where we are back to undercooked stories. The show seemed unable to capitalize on Barry and Nora's father-daughter relationship except in very overt, obvious, clumsy terms with the characters blatantly stating their emotions.

The big dilemmas of major episodes boiled down to Barry, Nora and Joe finding the right words to talk Cicada out of a killing spree or to rally the troops, a strangely small-scale insecurity. Season 5 scripted the 34-year-old Jessica Parker Kennedy to play Nora with the maturity of a teenaged girl and the visual disconnect was bizarre.

It wasn't all bad. Tom Cavanagh as Sherloque was a delight as Cavanagh and the scripts found an actual character to go with one of Cavanagh's comedy accents. Ralph Dibney was a joy as a more competent detective this year. Iris and Barry were a lot of fun as astonished parents. Caitlin had some great episodes this year. The Nora/Thawne dynamic was earnest and disturbing in how utterly sincere Thawne was in his love for Nora even as he manipulated her into erasing herself from existence.

However, in terms of plotting, Season 5 revolved around Team Flash inexplicably unable to take on Cicada, a thug with a magic knife whose superpower was to stretch out short sentences to unbearable length with extremely slow line deliveries, a gift he apparently passed on to the second Cicada.

I watched Season 5, Episode 21 yesterday and I honestly can't remember most of what happened. It made nearly no impression on me as poor Sarah Carter took half a minute to deliver 10 seconds' worth of dialogue. THE FLASH, a show about superspeed, seem to be going so slow that time felt like it was ticking backwards. Only when Thawne got free and Nora and Barry had to race against him did the episode finally come alive. Only then was there suddenly speed and motion and pacing and stakes and energy and danger -- at which point I realized that THE FLASH had spent 21 episodes -- TWENTY ONE EPISODES -- with speedsters circling awkwardly around a villain whose great threat was an unwieldy looking knife.

Looking back, I think there was maybe 10 episodes of story here. Nora and Thawne working together should have been exposed to the audience by the second episode, the discovery should have come in the fifth episode, Cicada should have been dispatched by the sixth and Thawne breaking free and Nora being erased should have been the mid-season finale. There simply wasn't enough content here for an entire season of THE FLASH.

What on Earth made the writers stretch out half a season of material to a whole year? My painful suspicion is that known sexual harasser Andrew Kreisberg brought a certain magic to THE FLASH and took it away with him when he was fired off THE FLASH during the middle of Season 4. Infamous sexual harasser Andrew Kreisberg had a specific approach during Seasons 1 - 3 that terrified his workers. Not only did he grope and grab and hump his writers, reputed sexual harasser Andrew Kreisberg insisted on putting multiple ideas into individual episodes that, on any other show, would have sustained entire seasons.

Most shows would have held back revealing Harrison Wells as a villain, the Flash's future in the Crisis and the exposure of the Reverse Flash and distributed one reveal for each season finale. Accused sexual harasser Andrew Kreisberg put all of that in the first half of Season 1. Most writers would have revealed how Thawne stole Harrison Wells' life across a season finale and a subsequent season. The despised sexual harasser Andrew Kreisberg revealed all in one episodes. Most showrunners would have spread out alternate universes, Jay Garrick and creating Flashpoint across three seasons. The now unhirable sexual harasser Andrew Kreisberg put it all in Season 2.

Somewhat overstretched sexual harasser Andrew Kreisberg seemed to take his eye off THE FLASH for Season 3, but blackballed sexual harasser Andrew Kreisberg gave THE FLASH his full attention for Season 4. Halfway into Season 4, industry punchline and sexual harasser Andrew Kreisberg was fired off every single one of his shows.

It's interesting to look at Season 5's plotting and compare it to Season 1. There are some very good and strong concepts for a season of TV, but the big tentpole moments are extremely few when stretched across 21 episodes and padded out with empty supervillain procedurals. In contrast to Seasons 1 - 2 having Barry constantly learn new speed flourishes, Season 5 had next to no discoveries and made little to no use of Nora picking up Barry's tricks. There simply isn't enough material and rather than add more and make sure every episode is full of twists and turns and revelations and story, what's present is simply overextended.

Universally loathed sexual harasser Andrew Kreisberg has no business working in television (he literally has no more business), but it's painful to consider that he had a strong vision for THE FLASH and his successors don't seem to have any vision for it at all.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

It's weird.  The Monitor showed up on Arrow first, and he had the biggest "cameo" on that.  Then he showed up on Supergirl and Legends, while also sorta being a part of the Flash finale (as the crisis moved up to 2019).

But what are we to make of his appearances on Supergirl and Legends?  On Supergirl, he release's J'onn's (evil?) brother from some sort of imprisonment.  Then he rescued (?) the dead (?) Lex Luthor to end the season.  On Legends, he showed up, did nothing, and was used mostly for comic relief as he was seen eating popcorn.

I don't know what they're setting up with him.  He seemed like a good guy fighting an impossible fight on the Arrow finale (after being a sometimes good / sometimes bad character in the crossover).  On Supergirl, he seemed like a bad guy (working with / helping two supervillains).  On Legends, he did nothing.

It's cool that they're going to have a storyline potentially bleed through all five shows next season, and it's going to potentially be a cool sendoff to Arrow and a big step in the Arrowverse.  But I found the Monitor cameos to be much more confusing than the "WOW" tease that I think we were supposed to be left with.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Hey, I haven’t responded because I haven’t seen the SUPERGIRL and LEGENDS finales yet. I’ve been working out a lot, watching ONCE UPON A TIME in the gym, but I’ve enjoyed the CW shows so much this year that I want to watch these two finales on the big screen. (Uh. On the 55 inch tv in my living room. Which by modern standards is pretty average.)

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

That was the Monitor’s behavior in the year leading up to Crisis back in 1985.  He made brief shadowy cameos in just about every DC title - often as a weapons dealer to super villains.  He wasn’t evil per se’ - more of a neutral party just testing heroes and villains in search of the best people to fight the threat of the Anti-Monitor.

The interesting thing is Luthor.  Alexander Luthor (son of the heroic Earth 3 Lex Luthor) was a pretty integral part Crisis on Infinite Earths.  So they’re likely to play with that character in some form; and the ending of Supergirl could have been related to however they are going to spin their version of that.