Re: Supernatural

I really enjoyed the 300th episode from an emotional standpoint.  I thought it was a really nice moment in the series, and I thought they hit on all the notes they were supposed to.

And I get why they had to have both brothers leave for story reasons, but their dad has been gone for 15 years and both brothers go out for groceries?  It could've been cool if they'd had JDM for more than one episode because this could've been a cool 2-3 episode arc.  Maybe get old John on one last hunt?

There are a lot of nits I could pick about how the timeline worked, but I'm going to leave it be.  The scenes between John and Sam/Dean were good enough for me.

Re: Supernatural

The storyline with Nick is interesting because Lucifer corrupted him. Lucifer's whole shtick is that he is appealing and following him makes people feel good as they head toward Hell. That said, I don't really get the story. This isn't Nick's body. Nick shouldn't be in there any more than Jimmy is in Castiel. It's another example of the show contradicting established mythology this season, and why I think it is time for a new showrunner.

I don't think that it would work to reveal the supernatural stuff to the world. Supernatural works as a truckstop horror story, but whenever they try to go bigger, it falls apart. Kripke understood this about the show, but others don't seem to. The more you see, the less scary something is. The bigger you go, the less impact it has. The more you bring people back from the dead, the less anyone cares about life or death on the show. This is why the Heaven/Hell stuff became almost comedic and silly after a while. People in suits talking about how powerful they were while accomplishing nothing. It was so much more powerful when we got bits and pieces, but never saw what was really going on.

Season 7 was the closest we've come to seeing the world let in on the big secret, and it was a mess. We later had the President and big government agencies, and it looked ridiculous. Whereas one FBI agent tracking Sam and Dean in the early seasons felt like a real threat.

One of the most overlooked parts of storytelling these days is just establishing boundaries. Now that we can show anything on screen by using computer animation, everyone wants to show everything.


The 300th episode had some good moments, but I'm not sure it was really on the mark. It captured how far Sam and Dean have come, but it didn't capture where John was at that time. He didn't act like the John Winchester of that era. I don't think that he needed to be all angry and abusive, but I think that he definitely would have questioned some of the decisions that his boys have made.

It did feel rushed (maybe we didn't need the whole storyline with the kids and the town). Parts felt too wacky (Sam's Steve Jobs costume). There was some good emotion, and I think that Samantha Smith did a great job of making us feel a connection with someone whom she barely worked with 14 years ago. That said, the overall execution of this scenario didn't feel... real. It seemed more fanfic-y than, say, the time travel episodes where Sam and Dean interacted with their parents in earlier seasons.

I get that they probably didn't have JDM for very long and it was easier to play it out on one stage, but it felt off to me.

Re: Supernatural

It really did feel fanfic-y.  Like a small little story where the boys get this little moment because that's essentially what happened.  The rest of the story was simply set-up for the story to happen and for it to end so quickly.

I do wonder, if given more time, whether we could've gotten more about John's philosophy vs. the brothers'.  Whether or not the brothers have outgrown their father or not.  All those are interesting questions the show could look at.

I agree with your stance on the supernatural elements going public, but I wonder if, after 15 years, it's no longer believable that any of this would still be a secret.

Re: Supernatural

It's not really a secret. The show is (or was) based mostly on urban legends, ancient folklore and religion. All of those things are widely available. The world knows about reports of werewolves going back hundreds of years. Everyone tells ghost stories. We make tons of movies based on those stories.

The thing is, most people will choose to ignore the scary realities of the world until they're in a situation where they have to address it themselves. How many people take part in any charitable 5K when they haven't been personally impacted by whatever disease they're running for? What percentage of the population even joins the military to fight enemies that we know are actively trying to kill us? (0.4 percent. I just looked it up)

Hunters have always been portrayed like the soldiers who are fighting that war. The normal people might toss salt over their shoulder, or go to church on the big holidays, but they're not really interested in the war. They don't want to think about what could be lurking under their bed, or the demon that might take over their body at any moment. Even in our world, we have stories of demonic possession, and you could probably find thousands of people to back up those stories, complete with video evidence and horrible stories of normal people suddenly developing a taste for human faces. At the end of the day, people will laugh off the idea of a demon in favor of something that we can medicate and lock away, but do we really know for sure?


Granted, the show has gone a bit far with their monsters. As I said, they're relying much more heavily on showing us everything in great detail these days, and that doesn't help the show at all. They could easily have Rowena die and come back to life on camera, or Castiel do whatever his level of power will allow him to do this week (I'm still not sure what his deal is this season). But the general idea is that people know, but they'd rather not.

Re: Supernatural

I never understood all the weight the fans and fan-press put on bringing Jeffrey Dean Morgan back. Occasionally, he was needed for flashbacks and they settled for a younger actor playing him at a younger age. But functionally, John Winchester was dead; he gave his life to save his son in the Season 2 premiere. What more was there to gain? Since then, the show had done a fine job of exploring the character’s mixed legacy with Sam often speaking poorly of John as abusive and insane while at other times saying that John had taught him how to protect himself and others.

From what I can tell, Morgan’s stipulation for returning for this guest-appearance; he wanted to play Sam and Dean’s father and was extremely displeased with the mixed memories that surrounded John after his death. Morgan had, he felt, always approached his role as a loving but misunderstood father and he wanted that to be his role in his return, which is why, as Informant notes, John isn’t played as the volatile, alcoholic solider forever at war but instead as Jeffrey Dean Morgan’s view of himself.

I liked the episode for all of Slider_Quinn21’s reasons, but I can’t help but think that SUPERNATURAL left Jeffrey Dean Morgan behind a long time ago.

Re: Supernatural

On Taking Monsters Public

Yeah, I hadn't really thought about it that way, but I agree that it's probably as public as it is now.  Someone could die and all the evidence could point to "Vampire" and I might not believe it a normal dude in America.  Without seeing it, I won't believe it.  And even if I saw something filmed on a shaky cell phone, I might think it's a student film before I believe it's legitimately a monster.

The only reason I even asked is because Nick is talking to this policeman about the Devil, and Nick literally holds all the cards to prove it.  He knows where the bodies are buried.  He could do this big Miracle on 34th Street - type show about it.  And for half a second, I thought that's where they were going and was briefly intrigued by it.  Then another half-second later, I thought he could flip on Sam and Dean and bring them in.  Because while the system might want Nick, would they be willing to bargain with him to get Sam and Dean?  I probably watch too many cop shows.

On John

I completely agree with all that.  I think, with more time, they could've done some interesting things with John.  What if he tried to assume leadership of the bunker?  Would Sam be okay with that?  Would Dean?  How would he have handled 13 years of season finale decisions?  Heck, how did the last 15 seasons look?  How did they avoid the apocalypse without Castiel or even Castiel knowing who they are?  These are things I doubt anyone thought about.

And one more thing - the last scene.  I read in an interview that it's simply John waking up from what he thinks was a dream in his time.  Which is funny because I read into it differently - I thought John was in Heaven.

Re: Supernatural

Slider_Quinn21 wrote:

I thought John was in Heaven.

I see no issue with that interpretation.

I think that the rationale for why John is so gentle in this episode in contrast to Sam and Dean's memories of him as a harsh taskmaster -- he's in shock from seeing his sons over a decade older from how he remembers them last, he's in shock from seeing his wife alive again. John never wanted to be a hunter until Mary died; it was Mary who descends from a legacy of hunters and reluctantly showed John her world, and when Mary is alive, John doesn't feel the call to be a hunter anymore.

Re: Supernatural

If they had the option of featuring John more, I could honestly see him on a completely different team than Sam and Dean. Maybe not trying to kill them, but probably trying to stop them... And maybe kill their friends. They live with monsters more than they live with people these days. Even the humans they know aren't of our world. They keep making deals and pushing the line, and while John might not be above those things himself, when it comes to saving his family, I think he would feel a need to correct course if he came back and took it all in. John would not like Castiel. John would not like Rowena. John may warm up to Jack in some ways, but he would always view Jack as a threat.

John would want Heaven to stay in Heaven, Hell to stay in Hell, and hunters to fight monsters, not have them as roommates.

And honestly... I might be on John's side of this fight.

Re: Supernatural

ireactions wrote:

I think that the rationale for why John is so gentle in this episode in contrast to Sam and Dean's memories of him as a harsh taskmaster -- he's in shock from seeing his sons over a decade older from how he remembers them last, he's in shock from seeing his wife alive again. John never wanted to be a hunter until Mary died; it was Mary who descends from a legacy of hunters and reluctantly showed John her world, and when Mary is alive, John doesn't feel the call to be a hunter anymore.

It could be that, but I have two alternate explanations:

1. Instead of being plucked out of 2003, John was plucked out of Heaven.  And after spending 13+ years in Heaven, that's what softened him up.  If my interpretation of the final scene is accurate, then he's been hanging out in an idyllic place, softening up.  So he shows back up, things are looking great, and he stays in a Heavenly mood.

2. The pearl didn't bring back the real John Winchester, but an idealized version that had all the good traits of John but few of the bad ones.  The thing Dean's heart wished for the most wasn't the real John but one that would confirm that Dean did a good job and be someone who'd be proud of him.

Re: Supernatural

Informant wrote:

If they had the option of featuring John more, I could honestly see him on a completely different team than Sam and Dean. Maybe not trying to kill them, but probably trying to stop them... And maybe kill their friends. They live with monsters more than they live with people these days. Even the humans they know aren't of our world. They keep making deals and pushing the line, and while John might not be above those things himself, when it comes to saving his family, I think he would feel a need to correct course if he came back and took it all in. John would not like Castiel. John would not like Rowena. John may warm up to Jack in some ways, but he would always view Jack as a threat.

Yeah.  John is essentially Dean without a Sam, and Sam had to convince Dean to deal with all the monsters they work with.

Re: Supernatural

S14 has been a good one so far.  Yeah some dumb plot arcs here and there, but a lot of really good individual monster stories and whatnot.  Jeffrey Dean's return, despite the Negan beard, was excellent.  Wow!  The EP team they've had the last 3 years has been really strong.  We'll see how long the show goes, though I kind of feel like 15 will be the end, at least that's the impression Sam Smith gave me at a con last November.