Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

ireactions wrote:

Well, I hope you're happy, Slider_Quinn21. I'm now going to watch another often expressionless but favourite performer, Saoirse Ronan, and hope she doesn't fall off my list too.

Ha, I haven't seen her in much, but I thought she was great in Brooklyn.  I think you're good there.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

More rumors flying around the Arrowverse than usual.  Arrow ending after Crisis (season 8).  Legends and Supergirl on the bubble after Crisis due to continued low ratings.  A new Superman show featuring Tyler coming in to replace Supergirl.  Cisco and Caitlyn leaving Flash.

I have to say - if they want to do a major shake-up, that’s what Crisis was made for.  From the various articles I’ve read, it seems like Cisco leaving has the most weight to it.  If so, XS already name dropped his replacement at the start of this season - Ryan Choi (the successor to Ray Palmer’s Atom in the comics):

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/8/88/AllNewAtom.jpg/250px-AllNewAtom.jpg

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I think the Arrowverse could use a shakeup.  Who's the biggest death in the Arrowverse that wasn't written out?  Dr. Stein?

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Slider_Quinn21 wrote:

And I'm interested in seeing what happens with Oliver.  We were teased with TF's thought in Part 3 - both Barry and Kara were supposed to die, and they're the ones who die in the original Crisis.  Obviously Oliver made some sort of deal with the Monitor to die in their place - but does that mean that Arrow won't get renewed?  Or would they really be able to kill off Oliver mid-season, possibly on an episode of a different series?  If they announce that Arrow is going to only be 11 episodes next season, won't that be a pretty big tip-off that something is going to happen?  Or would they actually try and do a final half-season of Arrow without Oliver on it?

Well, I sorta nailed this.  Stephen Amell came out on Twitter and announced that Arrow is only coming back for 10 episodes next season.  Would put their finale around the time of the crossover.

Would they really kill off Oliver in a crossover?  Would they really make a crossover the series finale of Arrow?  Or would he die in the crossover and then the finale is aftermath?  Or would it be the opposite - the actual end of Arrow is prior to the crossover, and the crossover would be the end of his character?

Or is it all built for hype to make people believe that Oliver is actually going to die?  They could never pull off "JUST KIDDING, we're actually back for a full 23 episodes" after the crossover, but it'd be incredible to see them try that.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I'm sad that ARROW is ending, but it makes sense on every level. I could have seen ARROW going on and on like SUPERNATURAL, but ARROW seeded a whole family of shows with THE FLASH, SUPERGIRL, LEGENDS, BLACK LIGHTNING and BATWOMAN. SUPERNATURAL will likely cease to be a going concern once Jared and Jensen retire as neither BLOODLINES nor WAYWARD SISTERS went to series; the Arrowverse doesn't need ARROW to keep going.

Season 1 of ARROW was a masterpiece of unintentional comedy, trying to do a grim and gritty Christopher Nolan movie on a SMALLVILLE budget. Season 2 found its feet as an operatic, larger than life fantasy with Felicity's regular role lending some much-needed self-awareness. Season 3 started strong until it stumbled into the nonsensical mythology of death cults and magic resurrections and what-not.

Season 4 was even more nonsensically magical with demons and telekinetics and voodoo rituals and Stephen Amell was appalled, declaring that if Season 5 didn't return to ARROW as a street-crime series, there shouldn't be an ARROW series at all. Season 5 was almost universally acclaimed as a return to form; Seasons 6 - 7 have retained that back-to-basics template and some people like it and some don't.

Stephen Amell confessed in his podcast with Michael Rosenbaum that he was tired and that it would be up to him if ARROW were to have an eighth season and he would make that decision with thought and care.

I'm glad ARROW will get a good finale. I'm glad that Stephen Amell, having launched the DC television universe, can get some well-earned rest and maybe drink beer and eat chips again. I'm grateful that ARROW introduced us all to our friends Barry and Kara and Caitlin and Iris and Cisco and Alex and Jefferson and Jennifer and Sara and Ray and Nate and Eva.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Looks like my Earth 2 theory was wrong.

But if this is canon and Oliver is alive....I guess he won't die in the crossover?

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I can't quite figure out what the problem with THE FLASH is this season as each new episode seems to have a different set of problems. It was interesting to watch last week's FLASH and last week's ARROW. THE FLASH has spent all season plodding with low intensity towards a confrontation with Cicada, but as noted above, Cicada is simply a thug with a knife and not remotely compelling. There is no reason why Barry can't knock him out like any other freak of the week.

Last week, Nora was exposed as being in league with Thawne and it fell flat, partially because we've known for weeks and are ahead of the characters. But it also occurs to me that THE FLASH isn't really using superspeed in daring, inventive ways this year. Barry and Nora are just speeding in and out. Aside from a few isolated moments, there have been no memorable moments of exploring frozen time or manuevering through impossible situations. Even Nora's endless timeloop episode had Nora unable to stop Cicada because of what looked suspiciously like luck without the story presenting an actual no-win situation. Have the writers used up all their ideas in previous seasons? In contrast, the combat in ARROW this year is quite deliberate in creating situations that call for Oliver to use a bow and arrow.

The Barry/Iris/Nora relationship hasn't come alive. Nora is a grown woman and doesn't seem like a child. Barry's tutorials for Nora have been extremely limited and laboured and there is no sense of Barry imparting wisdom or knowledge or ability or confidence that Nora didn't already have. As a result, when Nora confesses that she's been working with Thawne, there's no warm father/daughter bond to shatter, just dialogue that has them declaring their relationship.

THE FLASH seems really slow this year. Compare that to ARROW which showed Mia Smoak's upbringing and combat training in a swift montage. The infiltration of the Glades was taut and gripping. ARROW has a propulsive energy and Katherine MacNamara gives Mia this deranged, homicidal smile before she launches into combat. ARROW has pacing, momentum, a compelling set of parent-child conflicts. THE FLASH has Barry and Nora talking about how much they like each other and Nora telling Iris how Iris has impressed her. THE FLASH has the heroes talking about how dangerous Cicada is when he's just Chris Klein with unpleasant kitchenware. THE FLASH has lost its sense of showing over telling.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I think it would be hilarious if they went back and re-examined their strategies with Cicada after finding out about Nora.  They know that she's working with Thawne, and by putting her in the Pipeline, Barry shows that he can't trust her.

Who was the one who said that Oliver couldn't beat Cicada?  Nora.  So wouldn't it be great if they decided to ignore that, sent in Oliver, and he took out Cicada rather easily?

************

Regarding lazy use of speed, I laughed as Cicada 2 showed up, and while all the other heroes fired energy blasts of one form or another, Barry just started circling the room.  There's a thousand other things he can do, but he decided to just do a boring lightning bolt.

That being said, I've always found their use of speed to be lazy when it comes to big bad villains.  All of the big "fights" between Flash and any of his speed-based villains always ended up being some sort of race followed by two seconds of punching.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I'm having trouble identifying with Jon Cryer's Lex Luthor.  I think he does a solid-enough job.  I'd like him to be more physically imposing, but I think he has a posture about him that's imposing enough.  I think he has the attitude right, and I think he plays it fairly well.

Am I just bothered by the goatee?

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I thought Cryer's Luthor was great, with a facade of goodwill, charm, consideration and warmth that is plainly a thin layer on top of a cruel, vicious sociopathy matched with a sincere empathy that allows him to manipulate people into doing what he wants. From telling Lena he was cruel to bring out her ambition to mentioning the prison warden's mother and bringing lobster for his fellow inmates, Luthor makes people think he cares about them while Cryer and the writing make it clear he's looking for pressure points to control them.

It was also really neat how in his second episode, Luthor reveals that he has been the villain the entire time: he manipulated President Marsdin's exposure, he saw to it that Ben Lockwood would serve as a figurehead for the humanity first movement, he's been pushing for the superhuman serum and I have to wonder if Manchester Black also factors into his plans. Cryer is terrifying. It's a relief to know that the clumsy non-actor of SUPERMAN IV has blossomed into this incredible talent and a master of his artform.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Apparently Emily Bett Richards isn't coming back for the 10-episode season 8.

If the flash-forwards are real, Felicity is in hiding while Oliver is...somewhere.  So he could be doing something while apart from Felicity and then potentially die in the crossover.

I know Informant will be happy, but I don't really know what Arrow looks like without Felicity.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I don’t see how you can have ARROW without the lead character’s wife, but then again, flash forwards have shown that Oliver and Felicity aren’t physically together for whatever reason, so...

I wonder why Rickards isn’t doing the last 10 episodes. I don’t think she would’ve been contracted for anything past this season as all the actors signed at most, seven year contracts, so either she didn’t want to come back or couldn’t agree on a salary or she’s in a sex cult that demands she give her full attention to human trafficking. Hopefully, she can at least be secured for guest appearances.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

People seem to think she's gone gone.  I don't know if she has some sort of problem with the writing, but I've read that she was against the writers making Felicity pregnant because she didn't want to be defined by that.  If she's been unhappy on the show, she's been less vocal about it than Candice Patton or even someone like Katie Cassidy.

It could be pay.  Maybe she wanted to get paid for a full season even though it's a half season.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I can imagine a situation where a performer is being offered other roles in films and TV that are a better offer than a half-year job for half the money and deciding to complete her existing contract and move on. But I find it so difficult to think that Rickards won't come back for at least the finale of a show that elevated her from guest star to recurring to regular to lead -- although I find it hard to believe she won't just endure the last ten episodes. Maybe she wasn't expecting an eighth season when her contract ended at the seventh and made other plans?

I have a lot of irritation with actors who sign multi-year contracts and then complain about fulfilling their agreements, but in this case, Rickards has done her job and given notice so that she can be written out, so I can't really find fault with her aside from wishing she would just stick around for another half a year. I assume that Felicity will go into hiding and her hacker role on the team will be fulfilled by Alena Whitlock?

**

I'm not up to speed on Candice Patton and Katie Cassidy and Emily Bett Rickards' problems with the writing. What's going on there?

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I'm assuming she gave more advanced notice than yesterday because they're probably done shooting now, right?  Or, at the very least, done writing.  Again, with the flash-forwards, we know that Felicity stays in that cabin outside of town with her daughter.  If those flash forwards are canon, there's the reason for her to be gone.

One interesting question will be what time period an eighth season would take place / where season 7 ends.  Are we going to end a month or so from where we are now?  Flash forward to the cabin after Mia is born?  Or, as someone online suggested, maybe the 8th season takes place entirely in the future with the future Team Arrow.  Unless that storyline is resolved, it's something they could do.  I mean, it didn't work on Fringe, but maybe it can work here.

*****

I don't know a ton about it because, frankly, it's all quite exhausting to follow all these sects of Arrowverse fandom.  Just like there were Felicity and Laurel sects, there are also Caitlin and Iris sects.  So whenever I tried to go down the rabbit hole, everything is tainted with some form of bias, and it's hard to tell what's true and what's rumor based on assumptions from a comment that may or may not have been innocuous.  So take all this with as much salt as you'd like.

Candice - As you might know, racist assholes have been bothering Candice for her entire run on the Flash.  Whether they don't like the race-swapping or the interracial aspect, she's had to deal with a bunch of crap in what was supposed to be a fairly big break.  While she's taken it in stride, some feel that she's bothered by Iris' lack of a clear role or lack of any storyline that she can identify with.  Caitlin fans say that she can't act, and that Caitlin (despite not being the romantic lead) is the female lead of the show.  There was also some drama with Danielle Panabaker behind the scenes that I don't know anything about.  She apparently made some sort of comment that made it seem like she was the only female in the show, but I couldn't find too much about it when I just scanned twitter. 

There's been rumors that one or both of the actresses are leaving the Flash.  And rumors that Carlos Valdes is leaving.  And accusations that Grant Gustin is phoning in his performances.

Katie - The only problems with her stem from her getting killed off originally.  I know she wasn't happy about that.  What's strange is that she had that contract that was supposed to let her appear on all the shows, but I'm not sure she ever appeared on Legends after that and only appeared on Flash once.  There's apparently rumors that she might go to Legends next season.

Emily - The only thing I know is the thing she mentioned that she didn't want to see a pregnancy storyline.  From a TV Guide interview:

"I don't know if I would be interested in exploring that storyline right now with Felicity," Rickards said at the time. "I feel like she deserves a little something more than that, and I don't want that to be taken the wrong way. I'd just be interested in seeing her, I don't know, like, deal with a villain face-to-face for a consistent number of episodes."

So maybe the writers were going to make her more of a "mom" character (or worse, someone who abandons her baby to do "more fun" stuff) and that's not what she wanted to do.  So she thought if that's what they want her to do, Felicity can be that offscreen.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

WOW. I confess that Reddit is my discussion forum of choice, but the ARROW subreddit is so overrun with deranged hatred for Felicity (as opposed to Informant’s critical distaste for her) that I just avoid it. The KSite forum seems unused.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Yeah I had no idea the same sorta stuff happened with fans of the Flash, but apparently there are about 20 sects of fans inside the Arrowverse fandom.  And they all seem to hate each other.  I fell down the rabbit hole around the time that they announced that Arrow was done after season 8.  It was a trending topic on Twitter, and I looked at the top posts about it.  I clicked on one of those posts, and I saw some infighting.  Fans of the Flash were gloating because their show was finally going to the full stage.  Arrow fans said they'd never even have a show without Arrow.

Both sides (correctly in my opinion) complained about the drop in quality on both shows.  Both blamed the crossovers for ruining the other show.

As I clicked and read, I noticed some in-fighting with the Flash too.  How Candice Patton is going to quit because of racism and writing she doesn't like.  How Carlos Valdes is going to quit.  How Candice and Danielle hate each other.  How Danielle might quit and how great that'd be for Candice.  How Grant is phoning it in.  How dumb it was that Killer Frost was in all three parts of the crossover but Iris (the FEMALE LEAD) was only in one.  I didn't see any complaints about Wells or Tom Cavanaugh's acting like we talked about.  No one seemed to have any opinion on Ralph.

It all seemed so bizarre to me.  I like the Arrowverse as much as the next guy, but I've never felt the need to pick a side.  There are still devoted fans of Barry and Caitlin getting together, and that hasn't even been referenced since season one I don't think.  And even then, it was weak.  And as I was writing, I thought of how silly that is because Barry and Iris have been the definitive Barry Allen couple for decades, and it would be a big departure for him to end up with anyone else.  But then I remembered that we actually had that happen on Arrow with Oliver ending up with Felicity over Laurel.  So maybe the "Snowbarry" people have a case.  I don't know and don't really care smile

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I mean, I was a Snowbarry fan myself. But, looking back, I now see that Danielle Panabaker isn't as awesome as I thought and she works best when paired with another actor. When asked to carry a scene, Panabaker reverts to that vacant stare in GIRLS AGAINST BOYS and TIME LAPSE. When sharing the screen with Grant Gustin, the Caitlin character had grief, trauma, loss and duty: she was Barry's personal physician and had deeply passionate feelings -- towards Ronnie, her dead fiance -- feelings which for a time were directed in Barry's direction.

There could have been something romantic, especially given that Iris was written so blandly in Season 1 as a generic female in distress. However, as Iris became a reporter, an investigator and the team leader, it became clear that Caitlin worked best as Barry's doctor and that very much took romance off the table. A doctor should never be romantically involved with the patient and if Barry and Caitlin ever acted on whatever spark was between them, she could no longer be his doctor. I think it was for the best that THE FLASH never pursued that angle regardless of whether Barry was meant to be with Iris or not. Ultimately, I really enjoy seeing Panabaker and Gustin together and their platonic friendship is vivid and compelling.