Re: Supernatural

I really enjoyed the 300th episode from an emotional standpoint.  I thought it was a really nice moment in the series, and I thought they hit on all the notes they were supposed to.

And I get why they had to have both brothers leave for story reasons, but their dad has been gone for 15 years and both brothers go out for groceries?  It could've been cool if they'd had JDM for more than one episode because this could've been a cool 2-3 episode arc.  Maybe get old John on one last hunt?

There are a lot of nits I could pick about how the timeline worked, but I'm going to leave it be.  The scenes between John and Sam/Dean were good enough for me.

Re: Supernatural

The storyline with Nick is interesting because Lucifer corrupted him. Lucifer's whole shtick is that he is appealing and following him makes people feel good as they head toward Hell. That said, I don't really get the story. This isn't Nick's body. Nick shouldn't be in there any more than Jimmy is in Castiel. It's another example of the show contradicting established mythology this season, and why I think it is time for a new showrunner.

I don't think that it would work to reveal the supernatural stuff to the world. Supernatural works as a truckstop horror story, but whenever they try to go bigger, it falls apart. Kripke understood this about the show, but others don't seem to. The more you see, the less scary something is. The bigger you go, the less impact it has. The more you bring people back from the dead, the less anyone cares about life or death on the show. This is why the Heaven/Hell stuff became almost comedic and silly after a while. People in suits talking about how powerful they were while accomplishing nothing. It was so much more powerful when we got bits and pieces, but never saw what was really going on.

Season 7 was the closest we've come to seeing the world let in on the big secret, and it was a mess. We later had the President and big government agencies, and it looked ridiculous. Whereas one FBI agent tracking Sam and Dean in the early seasons felt like a real threat.

One of the most overlooked parts of storytelling these days is just establishing boundaries. Now that we can show anything on screen by using computer animation, everyone wants to show everything.


The 300th episode had some good moments, but I'm not sure it was really on the mark. It captured how far Sam and Dean have come, but it didn't capture where John was at that time. He didn't act like the John Winchester of that era. I don't think that he needed to be all angry and abusive, but I think that he definitely would have questioned some of the decisions that his boys have made.

It did feel rushed (maybe we didn't need the whole storyline with the kids and the town). Parts felt too wacky (Sam's Steve Jobs costume). There was some good emotion, and I think that Samantha Smith did a great job of making us feel a connection with someone whom she barely worked with 14 years ago. That said, the overall execution of this scenario didn't feel... real. It seemed more fanfic-y than, say, the time travel episodes where Sam and Dean interacted with their parents in earlier seasons.

I get that they probably didn't have JDM for very long and it was easier to play it out on one stage, but it felt off to me.

Re: Supernatural

It really did feel fanfic-y.  Like a small little story where the boys get this little moment because that's essentially what happened.  The rest of the story was simply set-up for the story to happen and for it to end so quickly.

I do wonder, if given more time, whether we could've gotten more about John's philosophy vs. the brothers'.  Whether or not the brothers have outgrown their father or not.  All those are interesting questions the show could look at.

I agree with your stance on the supernatural elements going public, but I wonder if, after 15 years, it's no longer believable that any of this would still be a secret.

Re: Supernatural

It's not really a secret. The show is (or was) based mostly on urban legends, ancient folklore and religion. All of those things are widely available. The world knows about reports of werewolves going back hundreds of years. Everyone tells ghost stories. We make tons of movies based on those stories.

The thing is, most people will choose to ignore the scary realities of the world until they're in a situation where they have to address it themselves. How many people take part in any charitable 5K when they haven't been personally impacted by whatever disease they're running for? What percentage of the population even joins the military to fight enemies that we know are actively trying to kill us? (0.4 percent. I just looked it up)

Hunters have always been portrayed like the soldiers who are fighting that war. The normal people might toss salt over their shoulder, or go to church on the big holidays, but they're not really interested in the war. They don't want to think about what could be lurking under their bed, or the demon that might take over their body at any moment. Even in our world, we have stories of demonic possession, and you could probably find thousands of people to back up those stories, complete with video evidence and horrible stories of normal people suddenly developing a taste for human faces. At the end of the day, people will laugh off the idea of a demon in favor of something that we can medicate and lock away, but do we really know for sure?


Granted, the show has gone a bit far with their monsters. As I said, they're relying much more heavily on showing us everything in great detail these days, and that doesn't help the show at all. They could easily have Rowena die and come back to life on camera, or Castiel do whatever his level of power will allow him to do this week (I'm still not sure what his deal is this season). But the general idea is that people know, but they'd rather not.

Re: Supernatural

I never understood all the weight the fans and fan-press put on bringing Jeffrey Dean Morgan back. Occasionally, he was needed for flashbacks and they settled for a younger actor playing him at a younger age. But functionally, John Winchester was dead; he gave his life to save his son in the Season 2 premiere. What more was there to gain? Since then, the show had done a fine job of exploring the character’s mixed legacy with Sam often speaking poorly of John as abusive and insane while at other times saying that John had taught him how to protect himself and others.

From what I can tell, Morgan’s stipulation for returning for this guest-appearance; he wanted to play Sam and Dean’s father and was extremely displeased with the mixed memories that surrounded John after his death. Morgan had, he felt, always approached his role as a loving but misunderstood father and he wanted that to be his role in his return, which is why, as Informant notes, John isn’t played as the volatile, alcoholic solider forever at war but instead as Jeffrey Dean Morgan’s view of himself.

I liked the episode for all of Slider_Quinn21’s reasons, but I can’t help but think that SUPERNATURAL left Jeffrey Dean Morgan behind a long time ago.

Re: Supernatural

On Taking Monsters Public

Yeah, I hadn't really thought about it that way, but I agree that it's probably as public as it is now.  Someone could die and all the evidence could point to "Vampire" and I might not believe it a normal dude in America.  Without seeing it, I won't believe it.  And even if I saw something filmed on a shaky cell phone, I might think it's a student film before I believe it's legitimately a monster.

The only reason I even asked is because Nick is talking to this policeman about the Devil, and Nick literally holds all the cards to prove it.  He knows where the bodies are buried.  He could do this big Miracle on 34th Street - type show about it.  And for half a second, I thought that's where they were going and was briefly intrigued by it.  Then another half-second later, I thought he could flip on Sam and Dean and bring them in.  Because while the system might want Nick, would they be willing to bargain with him to get Sam and Dean?  I probably watch too many cop shows.

On John

I completely agree with all that.  I think, with more time, they could've done some interesting things with John.  What if he tried to assume leadership of the bunker?  Would Sam be okay with that?  Would Dean?  How would he have handled 13 years of season finale decisions?  Heck, how did the last 15 seasons look?  How did they avoid the apocalypse without Castiel or even Castiel knowing who they are?  These are things I doubt anyone thought about.

And one more thing - the last scene.  I read in an interview that it's simply John waking up from what he thinks was a dream in his time.  Which is funny because I read into it differently - I thought John was in Heaven.

Re: Supernatural

Slider_Quinn21 wrote:

I thought John was in Heaven.

I see no issue with that interpretation.

I think that the rationale for why John is so gentle in this episode in contrast to Sam and Dean's memories of him as a harsh taskmaster -- he's in shock from seeing his sons over a decade older from how he remembers them last, he's in shock from seeing his wife alive again. John never wanted to be a hunter until Mary died; it was Mary who descends from a legacy of hunters and reluctantly showed John her world, and when Mary is alive, John doesn't feel the call to be a hunter anymore.

Re: Supernatural

If they had the option of featuring John more, I could honestly see him on a completely different team than Sam and Dean. Maybe not trying to kill them, but probably trying to stop them... And maybe kill their friends. They live with monsters more than they live with people these days. Even the humans they know aren't of our world. They keep making deals and pushing the line, and while John might not be above those things himself, when it comes to saving his family, I think he would feel a need to correct course if he came back and took it all in. John would not like Castiel. John would not like Rowena. John may warm up to Jack in some ways, but he would always view Jack as a threat.

John would want Heaven to stay in Heaven, Hell to stay in Hell, and hunters to fight monsters, not have them as roommates.

And honestly... I might be on John's side of this fight.

Re: Supernatural

ireactions wrote:

I think that the rationale for why John is so gentle in this episode in contrast to Sam and Dean's memories of him as a harsh taskmaster -- he's in shock from seeing his sons over a decade older from how he remembers them last, he's in shock from seeing his wife alive again. John never wanted to be a hunter until Mary died; it was Mary who descends from a legacy of hunters and reluctantly showed John her world, and when Mary is alive, John doesn't feel the call to be a hunter anymore.

It could be that, but I have two alternate explanations:

1. Instead of being plucked out of 2003, John was plucked out of Heaven.  And after spending 13+ years in Heaven, that's what softened him up.  If my interpretation of the final scene is accurate, then he's been hanging out in an idyllic place, softening up.  So he shows back up, things are looking great, and he stays in a Heavenly mood.

2. The pearl didn't bring back the real John Winchester, but an idealized version that had all the good traits of John but few of the bad ones.  The thing Dean's heart wished for the most wasn't the real John but one that would confirm that Dean did a good job and be someone who'd be proud of him.

Re: Supernatural

Informant wrote:

If they had the option of featuring John more, I could honestly see him on a completely different team than Sam and Dean. Maybe not trying to kill them, but probably trying to stop them... And maybe kill their friends. They live with monsters more than they live with people these days. Even the humans they know aren't of our world. They keep making deals and pushing the line, and while John might not be above those things himself, when it comes to saving his family, I think he would feel a need to correct course if he came back and took it all in. John would not like Castiel. John would not like Rowena. John may warm up to Jack in some ways, but he would always view Jack as a threat.

Yeah.  John is essentially Dean without a Sam, and Sam had to convince Dean to deal with all the monsters they work with.

Re: Supernatural

S14 has been a good one so far.  Yeah some dumb plot arcs here and there, but a lot of really good individual monster stories and whatnot.  Jeffrey Dean's return, despite the Negan beard, was excellent.  Wow!  The EP team they've had the last 3 years has been really strong.  We'll see how long the show goes, though I kind of feel like 15 will be the end, at least that's the impression Sam Smith gave me at a con last November.

Re: Supernatural

So....what is this season about?  Is it about Michael creating a monster army?  Or Jack possibly going to the Dark Side?  Or Lucifer coming back somehow?  Or the void's deal with Castiel?

It sorta seems all over the place.  I'm enjoying individual episodes, but the overall season-wide storyline seems a lot less clear than it usually is at this point.

Re: Supernatural

https://deadline.com/2019/03/supernatur … 202581010/

The longest-running series on the CW is coming to an end. Supernatural will wrap its run after its upcoming 15th season, which will consist of 20 episodes

Re: Supernatural

IB: "Lauren! Next year, will you watch FRINGE so we have something to talk about without SUPERNATURAL?"

LAUREN: " ... I am not ready to joke about this yet."

Re: Supernatural

I thought the way they announced it was pretty cool.  You can tell they felt terrible, like they were letting the fans down.  But I think Jensen and Jared are pretty fun actors, and I think it's time to let them do something else.

I have a feeling that they'll come back to this well at some point.  Maybe a TV movie or something.  I think they love the characters, but I don't think they should have to do the show forever.  And I think there's a chance the network was running out of eternal patience with them.

I'm glad they have a lot of time to plan the ending.  Because there's a lot of stuff I'd love for them to touch on.  Like, can we find a way to save Adam?

Re: Supernatural

In leaving his show, Jerry O'Connell was ridiculous, refusing to perform an exit story for SLIDERS. In leaving her shows, Katherine Heigl was ridiculous, whining about how she hated being on ROSWELL and GREY'S ANATOMY for the long hours when she knew what they'd be when she took those jobs. Wil Wheaton was also ridiculous, quitting STAR TREK after three seasons because he believed regularly being in people's homes every week was somehow holding him back from superstardom.

But Jared and Jensen -- they've been the leads of a show that has them in nearly every scene for 15 years. When SUPERNATURAL first started, their characters would pretend to be community college students; now they pretend to be FBI veterans. The recent 20 episode orders are to give them a longer rest after over a decade of 18 hour days. They've profited greatly from 15 seasons of pay, royalties, merchandising, conventions and other businesses. In return, they've done their part and more for the show and the fans.

The real disappointment, for me, is that WAYWARD SISTERS wasn't picked up. Had the spinoff been successful, the SUPERNATURAL universe could have continued in that form to cushion the blow. It is likely that SUPERNATURAL will continue after its conclusion as a digital comic that Slider_Quinn21 won't read just as SMALLVILLE and REVOLUTION did for a time and there could be a WAYWARD SISTERS digital comic as well that Slider_Quinn21 won't read.

SUPERNATURAL doesn't have anything left to prove or achieve at this point, so the reason why its departure is painful is because it had become an institution. I can't remember my life before watching the show; I am not sure if I even existed before its premiere and that's insane. I watched the pilot and then didn't watch it again for about eight years, getting caught up only because my niece was obsessed with it and I had to watch it to understand anything she was saying. Seasons 1 - 2 were a poor X-FILES clone, Season 3 found its feet and I've enjoyed every season of the show and outside of killing Kevin and Charlie and the alternate universe hunters, I've never felt hostile to the series or felt bored with its content.

FRINGE is often considered to be THE X-FILES done properly: it featured FBI agents investigating the paranormal, it played out its five season arc, it had running plotlines that were sustained and concluded, it had great love for its characters and gave them continuing and climactic arcs. But I think SUPERNATURAL is the true successor to THE X-FILES. Yes, it chose the supernatural over the FRINGE choosing the technological. It also features Chris Carter's multi-genre anthology attitude but, unlike Carter, the SUPERNATURAL writers were careful to keep Sam and Dean's characterization consistent even if they'd been in a splatterfest last week and were in a metatextual parody this week. It features lengthy arcs like THE X-FILES, but sustains the arcs even through the standalones. It ensures that monsters-of-the-week are thematically tied to the arc even if they aren't situationally connected.

Almost everything THE X-FILES attempted, SUPERNATURAL perfected aside from its portrayal of women. THE X-FILES inspired a generation of women to go into science, engineering and medicine; SUPERNATURAL wanted to inspire women to go into law enforcement and the military but WAYWARD SISTERS didn't make the CW's cut. Both SUPERNATURAL and THE X-FILES were renewed well beyond their intended or natural lifespan and SUPERNATURAL wrapped up its original myth-arc and conceived new ones while THE X-FILES stalled. THE X-FILES had a revival and still left us on a cliffhanger. SUPERNATURAL will end.

I kind of hope that there might be a revival (not a reboot) every 3 - 5 years with Sam and Dean in a six episode mini-series whenever the actors are available and willing. SUPERNATURAL conventions will likely continue for at least another ten years as 15 seasons gives actors lots of amusing on-set anecdotes.

Re: Supernatural

I actually knew about this from a cast member since last fall (won't squeal on who, ha ha), but I think it's time.  The show continues to churn out great scripts, it's really amazing.  It's been YEARS since I said, well that episode just sucked.  Probably going back to the Gamble-run years.  But it's time, I mean, they had to use a parallel universe to bring in new characters, there's just nothing left to hit on.

Re: Supernatural

Grizzlor wrote:

I actually knew about this from a cast member since last fall (won't squeal on who, ha ha), but I think it's time.  The show continues to churn out great scripts, it's really amazing.  It's been YEARS since I said, well that episode just sucked.  Probably going back to the Gamble-run years.  But it's time, I mean, they had to use a parallel universe to bring in new characters, there's just nothing left to hit on.

Once again, Samantha Smith cannot keep a secret about anything.

Re: Supernatural

ireactions wrote:

I kind of hope that there might be a revival (not a reboot) every 3 - 5 years with Sam and Dean in a six episode mini-series whenever the actors are available and willing. SUPERNATURAL conventions will likely continue for at least another ten years as 15 seasons gives actors lots of amusing on-set anecdotes.

Benedict Cumberbatch and Martin Freeman used to (they don't much anymore) talk about their version of Sherlock and how they'd love to come back and do a "series" of it every few years.  Their plan was, they used to say, to have Sherlock and Watson "grow old together."

I'd sorta love for that to be the case for Sam and Dean.  And while I do think it would've been cool to have Wayward Sisters (or even the other weirder spinoff) work, I think it's sorta appropriate in-universe to have these attempted (then failed) spinoffs.  Sam/Jared and Dean/Jensen would love to be able to retire - they've done the work/show for a lot longer than anyone thought they would, and they'd love to be able to pass it on to someone who could take it over.  Whether it be the Men of Letters/Bloodlines or the new hunters/Wayward Sisters.  But they realized no one could do it better than that.  So if anyone is going to hunt/do Supernatural, it needs to be them.

I know it wouldn't allow for a great wrapup if they left things open enough for Sam and Dean to return every few years, but maybe that's the best for this show.  Maybe Supernatural doesn't need Sam or Dean to die but just drive off into the sunset, allowing us to await the day they show back up.

Re: Supernatural

My niece seems to be experiencing some sort of mental health crisis over the announced conclusion of SUPERNATURAL. Honestly, I think she seriously needs to get a grip on reality because it's just a TV show.

ireactions' SLIDERS bibliography

Re: Supernatural

With Lucifer confirmed to be in the Empty and nothing truly dead ever in this universe, I wonder if the final season is setting up to be some sort of final confrontation with Lucifer.  Trying to recreate season 5 in a way?