Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

ireactions wrote:

Well, I hope you're happy, Slider_Quinn21. I'm now going to watch another often expressionless but favourite performer, Saoirse Ronan, and hope she doesn't fall off my list too.

Ha, I haven't seen her in much, but I thought she was great in Brooklyn.  I think you're good there.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

More rumors flying around the Arrowverse than usual.  Arrow ending after Crisis (season 8).  Legends and Supergirl on the bubble after Crisis due to continued low ratings.  A new Superman show featuring Tyler coming in to replace Supergirl.  Cisco and Caitlyn leaving Flash.

I have to say - if they want to do a major shake-up, that’s what Crisis was made for.  From the various articles I’ve read, it seems like Cisco leaving has the most weight to it.  If so, XS already name dropped his replacement at the start of this season - Ryan Choi (the successor to Ray Palmer’s Atom in the comics):

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I think the Arrowverse could use a shakeup.  Who's the biggest death in the Arrowverse that wasn't written out?  Dr. Stein?

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Slider_Quinn21 wrote:

And I'm interested in seeing what happens with Oliver.  We were teased with TF's thought in Part 3 - both Barry and Kara were supposed to die, and they're the ones who die in the original Crisis.  Obviously Oliver made some sort of deal with the Monitor to die in their place - but does that mean that Arrow won't get renewed?  Or would they really be able to kill off Oliver mid-season, possibly on an episode of a different series?  If they announce that Arrow is going to only be 11 episodes next season, won't that be a pretty big tip-off that something is going to happen?  Or would they actually try and do a final half-season of Arrow without Oliver on it?

Well, I sorta nailed this.  Stephen Amell came out on Twitter and announced that Arrow is only coming back for 10 episodes next season.  Would put their finale around the time of the crossover.

Would they really kill off Oliver in a crossover?  Would they really make a crossover the series finale of Arrow?  Or would he die in the crossover and then the finale is aftermath?  Or would it be the opposite - the actual end of Arrow is prior to the crossover, and the crossover would be the end of his character?

Or is it all built for hype to make people believe that Oliver is actually going to die?  They could never pull off "JUST KIDDING, we're actually back for a full 23 episodes" after the crossover, but it'd be incredible to see them try that.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I'm sad that ARROW is ending, but it makes sense on every level. I could have seen ARROW going on and on like SUPERNATURAL, but ARROW seeded a whole family of shows with THE FLASH, SUPERGIRL, LEGENDS, BLACK LIGHTNING and BATWOMAN. SUPERNATURAL will likely cease to be a going concern once Jared and Jensen retire as neither BLOODLINES nor WAYWARD SISTERS went to series; the Arrowverse doesn't need ARROW to keep going.

Season 1 of ARROW was a masterpiece of unintentional comedy, trying to do a grim and gritty Christopher Nolan movie on a SMALLVILLE budget. Season 2 found its feet as an operatic, larger than life fantasy with Felicity's regular role lending some much-needed self-awareness. Season 3 started strong until it stumbled into the nonsensical mythology of death cults and magic resurrections and what-not.

Season 4 was even more nonsensically magical with demons and telekinetics and voodoo rituals and Stephen Amell was appalled, declaring that if Season 5 didn't return to ARROW as a street-crime series, there shouldn't be an ARROW series at all. Season 5 was almost universally acclaimed as a return to form; Seasons 6 - 7 have retained that back-to-basics template and some people like it and some don't.

Stephen Amell confessed in his podcast with Michael Rosenbaum that he was tired and that it would be up to him if ARROW were to have an eighth season and he would make that decision with thought and care.

I'm glad ARROW will get a good finale. I'm glad that Stephen Amell, having launched the DC television universe, can get some well-earned rest and maybe drink beer and eat chips again. I'm grateful that ARROW introduced us all to our friends Barry and Kara and Caitlin and Iris and Cisco and Alex and Jefferson and Jennifer and Sara and Ray and Nate and Eva.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Looks like my Earth 2 theory was wrong.

But if this is canon and Oliver is alive....I guess he won't die in the crossover?

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I can't quite figure out what the problem with THE FLASH is this season as each new episode seems to have a different set of problems. It was interesting to watch last week's FLASH and last week's ARROW. THE FLASH has spent all season plodding with low intensity towards a confrontation with Cicada, but as noted above, Cicada is simply a thug with a knife and not remotely compelling. There is no reason why Barry can't knock him out like any other freak of the week.

Last week, Nora was exposed as being in league with Thawne and it fell flat, partially because we've known for weeks and are ahead of the characters. But it also occurs to me that THE FLASH isn't really using superspeed in daring, inventive ways this year. Barry and Nora are just speeding in and out. Aside from a few isolated moments, there have been no memorable moments of exploring frozen time or manuevering through impossible situations. Even Nora's endless timeloop episode had Nora unable to stop Cicada because of what looked suspiciously like luck without the story presenting an actual no-win situation. Have the writers used up all their ideas in previous seasons? In contrast, the combat in ARROW this year is quite deliberate in creating situations that call for Oliver to use a bow and arrow.

The Barry/Iris/Nora relationship hasn't come alive. Nora is a grown woman and doesn't seem like a child. Barry's tutorials for Nora have been extremely limited and laboured and there is no sense of Barry imparting wisdom or knowledge or ability or confidence that Nora didn't already have. As a result, when Nora confesses that she's been working with Thawne, there's no warm father/daughter bond to shatter, just dialogue that has them declaring their relationship.

THE FLASH seems really slow this year. Compare that to ARROW which showed Mia Smoak's upbringing and combat training in a swift montage. The infiltration of the Glades was taut and gripping. ARROW has a propulsive energy and Katherine MacNamara gives Mia this deranged, homicidal smile before she launches into combat. ARROW has pacing, momentum, a compelling set of parent-child conflicts. THE FLASH has Barry and Nora talking about how much they like each other and Nora telling Iris how Iris has impressed her. THE FLASH has the heroes talking about how dangerous Cicada is when he's just Chris Klein with unpleasant kitchenware. THE FLASH has lost its sense of showing over telling.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I think it would be hilarious if they went back and re-examined their strategies with Cicada after finding out about Nora.  They know that she's working with Thawne, and by putting her in the Pipeline, Barry shows that he can't trust her.

Who was the one who said that Oliver couldn't beat Cicada?  Nora.  So wouldn't it be great if they decided to ignore that, sent in Oliver, and he took out Cicada rather easily?


Regarding lazy use of speed, I laughed as Cicada 2 showed up, and while all the other heroes fired energy blasts of one form or another, Barry just started circling the room.  There's a thousand other things he can do, but he decided to just do a boring lightning bolt.

That being said, I've always found their use of speed to be lazy when it comes to big bad villains.  All of the big "fights" between Flash and any of his speed-based villains always ended up being some sort of race followed by two seconds of punching.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I'm having trouble identifying with Jon Cryer's Lex Luthor.  I think he does a solid-enough job.  I'd like him to be more physically imposing, but I think he has a posture about him that's imposing enough.  I think he has the attitude right, and I think he plays it fairly well.

Am I just bothered by the goatee?

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I thought Cryer's Luthor was great, with a facade of goodwill, charm, consideration and warmth that is plainly a thin layer on top of a cruel, vicious sociopathy matched with a sincere empathy that allows him to manipulate people into doing what he wants. From telling Lena he was cruel to bring out her ambition to mentioning the prison warden's mother and bringing lobster for his fellow inmates, Luthor makes people think he cares about them while Cryer and the writing make it clear he's looking for pressure points to control them.

It was also really neat how in his second episode, Luthor reveals that he has been the villain the entire time: he manipulated President Marsdin's exposure, he saw to it that Ben Lockwood would serve as a figurehead for the humanity first movement, he's been pushing for the superhuman serum and I have to wonder if Manchester Black also factors into his plans. Cryer is terrifying. It's a relief to know that the clumsy non-actor of SUPERMAN IV has blossomed into this incredible talent and a master of his artform.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Apparently Emily Bett Richards isn't coming back for the 10-episode season 8.

If the flash-forwards are real, Felicity is in hiding while Oliver is...somewhere.  So he could be doing something while apart from Felicity and then potentially die in the crossover.

I know Informant will be happy, but I don't really know what Arrow looks like without Felicity.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I don’t see how you can have ARROW without the lead character’s wife, but then again, flash forwards have shown that Oliver and Felicity aren’t physically together for whatever reason, so...

I wonder why Rickards isn’t doing the last 10 episodes. I don’t think she would’ve been contracted for anything past this season as all the actors signed at most, seven year contracts, so either she didn’t want to come back or couldn’t agree on a salary or she’s in a sex cult that demands she give her full attention to human trafficking. Hopefully, she can at least be secured for guest appearances.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

People seem to think she's gone gone.  I don't know if she has some sort of problem with the writing, but I've read that she was against the writers making Felicity pregnant because she didn't want to be defined by that.  If she's been unhappy on the show, she's been less vocal about it than Candice Patton or even someone like Katie Cassidy.

It could be pay.  Maybe she wanted to get paid for a full season even though it's a half season.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I can imagine a situation where a performer is being offered other roles in films and TV that are a better offer than a half-year job for half the money and deciding to complete her existing contract and move on. But I find it so difficult to think that Rickards won't come back for at least the finale of a show that elevated her from guest star to recurring to regular to lead -- although I find it hard to believe she won't just endure the last ten episodes. Maybe she wasn't expecting an eighth season when her contract ended at the seventh and made other plans?

I have a lot of irritation with actors who sign multi-year contracts and then complain about fulfilling their agreements, but in this case, Rickards has done her job and given notice so that she can be written out, so I can't really find fault with her aside from wishing she would just stick around for another half a year. I assume that Felicity will go into hiding and her hacker role on the team will be fulfilled by Alena Whitlock?


I'm not up to speed on Candice Patton and Katie Cassidy and Emily Bett Rickards' problems with the writing. What's going on there?

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I'm assuming she gave more advanced notice than yesterday because they're probably done shooting now, right?  Or, at the very least, done writing.  Again, with the flash-forwards, we know that Felicity stays in that cabin outside of town with her daughter.  If those flash forwards are canon, there's the reason for her to be gone.

One interesting question will be what time period an eighth season would take place / where season 7 ends.  Are we going to end a month or so from where we are now?  Flash forward to the cabin after Mia is born?  Or, as someone online suggested, maybe the 8th season takes place entirely in the future with the future Team Arrow.  Unless that storyline is resolved, it's something they could do.  I mean, it didn't work on Fringe, but maybe it can work here.


I don't know a ton about it because, frankly, it's all quite exhausting to follow all these sects of Arrowverse fandom.  Just like there were Felicity and Laurel sects, there are also Caitlin and Iris sects.  So whenever I tried to go down the rabbit hole, everything is tainted with some form of bias, and it's hard to tell what's true and what's rumor based on assumptions from a comment that may or may not have been innocuous.  So take all this with as much salt as you'd like.

Candice - As you might know, racist assholes have been bothering Candice for her entire run on the Flash.  Whether they don't like the race-swapping or the interracial aspect, she's had to deal with a bunch of crap in what was supposed to be a fairly big break.  While she's taken it in stride, some feel that she's bothered by Iris' lack of a clear role or lack of any storyline that she can identify with.  Caitlin fans say that she can't act, and that Caitlin (despite not being the romantic lead) is the female lead of the show.  There was also some drama with Danielle Panabaker behind the scenes that I don't know anything about.  She apparently made some sort of comment that made it seem like she was the only female in the show, but I couldn't find too much about it when I just scanned twitter. 

There's been rumors that one or both of the actresses are leaving the Flash.  And rumors that Carlos Valdes is leaving.  And accusations that Grant Gustin is phoning in his performances.

Katie - The only problems with her stem from her getting killed off originally.  I know she wasn't happy about that.  What's strange is that she had that contract that was supposed to let her appear on all the shows, but I'm not sure she ever appeared on Legends after that and only appeared on Flash once.  There's apparently rumors that she might go to Legends next season.

Emily - The only thing I know is the thing she mentioned that she didn't want to see a pregnancy storyline.  From a TV Guide interview:

"I don't know if I would be interested in exploring that storyline right now with Felicity," Rickards said at the time. "I feel like she deserves a little something more than that, and I don't want that to be taken the wrong way. I'd just be interested in seeing her, I don't know, like, deal with a villain face-to-face for a consistent number of episodes."

So maybe the writers were going to make her more of a "mom" character (or worse, someone who abandons her baby to do "more fun" stuff) and that's not what she wanted to do.  So she thought if that's what they want her to do, Felicity can be that offscreen.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

WOW. I confess that Reddit is my discussion forum of choice, but the ARROW subreddit is so overrun with deranged hatred for Felicity (as opposed to Informant’s critical distaste for her) that I just avoid it. The KSite forum seems unused.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Yeah I had no idea the same sorta stuff happened with fans of the Flash, but apparently there are about 20 sects of fans inside the Arrowverse fandom.  And they all seem to hate each other.  I fell down the rabbit hole around the time that they announced that Arrow was done after season 8.  It was a trending topic on Twitter, and I looked at the top posts about it.  I clicked on one of those posts, and I saw some infighting.  Fans of the Flash were gloating because their show was finally going to the full stage.  Arrow fans said they'd never even have a show without Arrow.

Both sides (correctly in my opinion) complained about the drop in quality on both shows.  Both blamed the crossovers for ruining the other show.

As I clicked and read, I noticed some in-fighting with the Flash too.  How Candice Patton is going to quit because of racism and writing she doesn't like.  How Carlos Valdes is going to quit.  How Candice and Danielle hate each other.  How Danielle might quit and how great that'd be for Candice.  How Grant is phoning it in.  How dumb it was that Killer Frost was in all three parts of the crossover but Iris (the FEMALE LEAD) was only in one.  I didn't see any complaints about Wells or Tom Cavanaugh's acting like we talked about.  No one seemed to have any opinion on Ralph.

It all seemed so bizarre to me.  I like the Arrowverse as much as the next guy, but I've never felt the need to pick a side.  There are still devoted fans of Barry and Caitlin getting together, and that hasn't even been referenced since season one I don't think.  And even then, it was weak.  And as I was writing, I thought of how silly that is because Barry and Iris have been the definitive Barry Allen couple for decades, and it would be a big departure for him to end up with anyone else.  But then I remembered that we actually had that happen on Arrow with Oliver ending up with Felicity over Laurel.  So maybe the "Snowbarry" people have a case.  I don't know and don't really care smile

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I mean, I was a Snowbarry fan myself. But, looking back, I now see that Danielle Panabaker isn't as awesome as I thought and she works best when paired with another actor. When asked to carry a scene, Panabaker reverts to that vacant stare in GIRLS AGAINST BOYS and TIME LAPSE. When sharing the screen with Grant Gustin, the Caitlin character had grief, trauma, loss and duty: she was Barry's personal physician and had deeply passionate feelings -- towards Ronnie, her dead fiance -- feelings which for a time were directed in Barry's direction.

There could have been something romantic, especially given that Iris was written so blandly in Season 1 as a generic female in distress. However, as Iris became a reporter, an investigator and the team leader, it became clear that Caitlin worked best as Barry's doctor and that very much took romance off the table. A doctor should never be romantically involved with the patient and if Barry and Caitlin ever acted on whatever spark was between them, she could no longer be his doctor. I think it was for the best that THE FLASH never pursued that angle regardless of whether Barry was meant to be with Iris or not. Ultimately, I really enjoy seeing Panabaker and Gustin together and their platonic friendship is vivid and compelling.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I really liked the reveal of Nora West-Allen's origin story in the flashbacks, the team discovering her partnership with Thawne, Barry and Iris' reaction and Nora's eventual return. It provided something THE FLASH didn't have enough of in Season 3 and this year in Season 5: a sense of discovery. Too much of Season 5 has been running through what we already know about superspeed and the Flash's legacy. It was wonderful to see Nora discovering her powers for the first time and Barry and Iris having completely different reactions to Nora's friendship with Thawne.

Tom Cavanagh does incredible work at differentiating Thawne from his Season 1 incarnation and from Sherloque. Sherloque is one of Cavanagh's silly comedy accents but with a gentle yet oddly ruthless analytical mind, following the evidence wherever it goes but never seeking to cause people undue harm. Thawne has the ego and condescension of Season 1, but there's also pain and regret and the slightly feeble and unfortunate sense that being kind to Nora is going to be his only meaningful contribution to the world.

It's good. It's a shame THE FLASH didn't get into this material sooner. It's much more interesting than another villain of the week or another pointless faceoff with Cicada.


ARROW: I've liked ARROW a lot with Season 5 going back to basics. I've loved Seasons 6 - 7 -- but there came a point in Season 7 last week when I was appalled. Roy lost control of himself due to Lazarus Pit madness and killed two innocent security guards. So the team... cover up the murders, frame a villain for the crime and then proceed to include Roy on more missions. Are they insane? I thought reconstructing Damian Darkh's totem so he could steal it and repower himself again was stupid, but this is deranged.

Roy could lose it again and turn on the team or kill more innocent people. The team provide various reasons for why Roy can't be prosecuted: a biological attack is coming, Team Arrow cannot lose its partnership with the police department right now. I wasn't entirely clear if Roy knew the Lotus elixir had failed to treat his bloodlust or if he only discovered it after killing two security guards. But regardless, Roy should be held in Andy Diggle's old cell, not free to roam and wander. That said, there is definitely going to be some follow-up with serious consequences for the cover-up.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

THE FLASH: *sigh* And now we're back to mediocrity. Neither Cicada works as a villain. I wondered why for awhile and it's interesting to compare the Cicadas to Thawne in Season 1. Thawne could be avuncular, warm, earnest and kind. You could see him casually murdering the cast if it suited him, but you could also see him hitting Big Belly Burger for a snack. He had characterization outside his immediate need to be threatening and manipulative and cruel; he wasn't just a rasping voice who snarled threats.

In contrast, Chris Klein and Sarah Carter as the Cicadas exist to do nothing but raspily snarl threats. There was an episode of flashback for Chris Klein and it was singularly incapable in adding sympathy to Cicada probably because Klein is one of the worst actors in Hollywood today. Klein is incapable of appearing natural; he cannot even walk through a door without indicating that he is an actor trying to hit his mark and has rehearsed every movement. Sarah Carter is better, having salvaged the Alicia Baker character on SMALLVILLE and made a video game fight movie like DOA watchable, but her Cicada is just as limited.

There came a moment in this week's FLASH when I just gave up on the show -- the point where Joe has a crisis in the middle of a police station because he doesn't have the confidence to give orders. This is the veteran police detective of five years? And the reasoning behind Joe's inability to command is that Captain Singh isn't around at present, a nonsensical justification that ignores five seasons of Joe never having any difficulty providing anyone with instructions. Why is it there? It looks suspiciously like Bill Dial style padding to stretch out a script that was short a few pages. This is the first time in the history of THE FLASH that I've seen an episode clearly fail to fill its own timeslot as though extending stock footage of the speedsters a bit was not an option.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

So I'm not sure I fully understood where they're going with the Arrow finale.  And, by extension, I'm not sure where they were going with the season as a whole.  I never really bought the Ninth Circle or Emiko as a compelling villain.  In fact, part of me thought that there was going to be a revelation that she'd lied about being related to him in the first place.  I don't think the connection they tried to make between Oliver's guilt and Emiko worked.

At the end of the day, I hate bringing in a long-lost sibling this late in the game.  I don't think it worked.  I almost would've rather had the villain be someone like Huntress or even Roy.  If the whole point was that the team is what made Oliver a great hero, then show someone who tried to go Oliver's original route and it turned them on a darker path.

So where do we go from here?  It's a shortened season that seemingly ends with the crossover.  But....what's Oliver going to be doing?  Is the Monitor going to put him back on Earth in secret where he can never speak with his family?  I thought for a second, while they were wrapping things up, that he might be taking down the Ninth Circle (because that seemed to be the reason they went into hiding).

Is Season 8 going to be "galactic" the right word?  Will it be Oliver and the Monitor prepping for the Crisis?  Do we even need 10 episodes of that?  Or would it be better for Arrow to end there and have Oliver simply make his return in the Crossover?

Did season 7 give us the right closure?  Because I have a feeling that Season 8 is going to be more of an epilogue than anything.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I’m getting the impression that Oliver is going to take on the role of Harbinger (The Monitor’s right hand in testing and recruiting people to fight the Anti-Monitor):

I’m also sure it’s going to come up that the woman who became Harbinger in the comics already exists in the Arrowverse - she’s Diggle’s wife, Lyla.

If Oliver does take on the role of Harbinger, then he may also gain some powers of his own (like the ability to duplicate himself).  Regardless, it only makes sense for these last 10 episodes to all be Crisis related.  Will the other series follow suit?  I’m beginning to think Crisis really is going to be a season long thing and not just a three episode event in November.

Everybody may have the same big bad for their next season long arc.

1,073 (edited by Slider_Quinn21 2019-05-16 08:51:10)

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Yeah, I could see that.  It could be cool to do it that way, and they've definitely positioned both the Flash and Arrow to work that way.  You could even have Arrow have a mostly-new cast and have any of the Arrow cast move to the Flash full-time.

I don't think we'll see LoT involved full-time, and I'm also not sure Supergirl will go there.  I guess we'll find out after those finales.

*Edit - Legends is being held until midseason.  So there might be some aftermath from the crossover (and they might appear), but it seems like they're just skipping the whole thing.  I also forgot about Batwoman - it'd be hard not to have that show be involved, but would they want to bog down their first season with a huge event like this?

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Flash -

I didn't love this season.  I think having Thawne be the big bad was cool, but it was also frustrating that they let him go and still lost Nora.  I'm guessing Thawne got Nora's name wrong (when Barry and Nora went back in time) because she was never meant to exist?

I also wonder if they always meant to move the Crisis up, or if they overshot how long they thought these shows would go on.

Final also wonder - is Cisco leaving the show?  I know there was talk of a lot of people leaving, but I'm not sure if any of that was actually confirmed.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Slider_Quinn21 wrote:

I'm guessing Thawne got Nora's name wrong (when Barry and Nora went back in time) because she was never meant to exist?

That’s where things start to get interesting.

In the comics, Barry and Iris have twins - Don and Dawn (also called the Tornado Twins).  Dawn’s daughter is Jenni Ognats - the true XS in the comics.  Barry and Iris could meet XS again; but she would be their grand daughter and have no memory of them.

Don also went on to have a son - Bart Allen known as Impulse and later the new Kid Flash.  But Bart’s mother?  Well, Don married Meloni Thawne (a descendant of the Reverse Flash).

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Slider_Quinn21 wrote:

*Edit - Legends is being held until midseason.  So there might be some aftermath from the crossover (and they might appear), but it seems like they're just skipping the whole thing.  I also forgot about Batwoman - it'd be hard not to have that show be involved, but would they want to bog down their first season with a huge event like this?

There's an image from the CW Upfronts that said that the Crossover would be 5 hours and "2 quarters"

Since it's a financial meeting, I have to assume they mean two financial quarters.  Since it's 5 hours, it would have to include all 5 connected shows (including Batwoman), and the picture on the image also would indicate this (as both Sara and Mick were in the picture with Batwoman, Kara, Barry, and Oliver).  Since LoT was held until midseason, that also makes sense.

The crossover might start in November, have a big cliffhanger at some point, and conclude in January or February.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

There's been no announcement about Carlos Valdes leaving the show. I assume he'll be back as Cisco. Season 5 of THE FLASH was very strange and oddly deficient. I wonder why. It's odd to chart THE FLASH's creative decline from Seasons 3 - 5, much like SLIDERS.

Season 3 crashed hard. Season 3 was attempting to continue the same successes of Seasons 1 - 2: a new turn on the Flash mythology with the Flashpoint timeline, another villain from the Flash's future -- but the episodes were not written well enough to capitalize on Savitar being a time remnant of Barry or how Flashpoint had warped the lives of Barry's friends. Despite spending all of Season 3 piling guilt on Barry, the main villain of Season 3 had nothing to do with any decision Barry had ever made onscreen; Savitar was a time remnant from some future event that we'd never seen.

There was the sense that the showrunners had gone from running ARROW to running ARROW and THE FLASH and LEGENDS OF TOMORROW and SUPERGIRL. Every year, there was one show that seemed to receive the least attention and suffer the most as a result: LEGENDS' first season was clumsy and formulaic; ARROW's fourth season drifted too far from street-level heroics; SUPERGIRL's first season featured two mutually exclusive takes on Kara as either a college student or a late 30s reporter. And THE FLASH's third season was painfully undercooked. Eventually, there was some internal rearranging and each show had its own dedicated showrunner.

Season 4 of THE FLASH stepped up: there was a shift to more comedy (that rubbed some the wrong way), a return to familiarity by making Harry Wells a regular, and in a clever turn of plotting, Season 4 had the Flash facing a villain whose intellect made Barry's speed useless and irrelevant. Season 4 progressively upped the situation as Barry seemed hopelessly outmatched by the Thinker, an antagonist who could match Team Flash's brainpower, who would later augment intelligence with Sylar-esque levels of power. And then came the finale where... the Thinker is abruptly unplugged and the story switched to punching a big rock falling out of the sky. It was an adequate end to Season 4, but something seemed to go off track.

Then we come to Season 5 where we are back to undercooked stories. The show seemed unable to capitalize on Barry and Nora's father-daughter relationship except in very overt, obvious, clumsy terms with the characters blatantly stating their emotions.

The big dilemmas of major episodes boiled down to Barry, Nora and Joe finding the right words to talk Cicada out of a killing spree or to rally the troops, a strangely small-scale insecurity. Season 5 scripted the 34-year-old Jessica Parker Kennedy to play Nora with the maturity of a teenaged girl and the visual disconnect was bizarre.

It wasn't all bad. Tom Cavanagh as Sherloque was a delight as Cavanagh and the scripts found an actual character to go with one of Cavanagh's comedy accents. Ralph Dibney was a joy as a more competent detective this year. Iris and Barry were a lot of fun as astonished parents. Caitlin had some great episodes this year. The Nora/Thawne dynamic was earnest and disturbing in how utterly sincere Thawne was in his love for Nora even as he manipulated her into erasing herself from existence.

However, in terms of plotting, Season 5 revolved around Team Flash inexplicably unable to take on Cicada, a thug with a magic knife whose superpower was to stretch out short sentences to unbearable length with extremely slow line deliveries, a gift he apparently passed on to the second Cicada.

I watched Season 5, Episode 21 yesterday and I honestly can't remember most of what happened. It made nearly no impression on me as poor Sarah Carter took half a minute to deliver 10 seconds' worth of dialogue. THE FLASH, a show about superspeed, seem to be going so slow that time felt like it was ticking backwards. Only when Thawne got free and Nora and Barry had to race against him did the episode finally come alive. Only then was there suddenly speed and motion and pacing and stakes and energy and danger -- at which point I realized that THE FLASH had spent 21 episodes -- TWENTY ONE EPISODES -- with speedsters circling awkwardly around a villain whose great threat was an unwieldy looking knife.

Looking back, I think there was maybe 10 episodes of story here. Nora and Thawne working together should have been exposed to the audience by the second episode, the discovery should have come in the fifth episode, Cicada should have been dispatched by the sixth and Thawne breaking free and Nora being erased should have been the mid-season finale. There simply wasn't enough content here for an entire season of THE FLASH.

What on Earth made the writers stretch out half a season of material to a whole year? My painful suspicion is that known sexual harasser Andrew Kreisberg brought a certain magic to THE FLASH and took it away with him when he was fired off THE FLASH during the middle of Season 4. Infamous sexual harasser Andrew Kreisberg had a specific approach during Seasons 1 - 3 that terrified his workers. Not only did he grope and grab and hump his writers, reputed sexual harasser Andrew Kreisberg insisted on putting multiple ideas into individual episodes that, on any other show, would have sustained entire seasons.

Most shows would have held back revealing Harrison Wells as a villain, the Flash's future in the Crisis and the exposure of the Reverse Flash and distributed one reveal for each season finale. Accused sexual harasser Andrew Kreisberg put all of that in the first half of Season 1. Most writers would have revealed how Thawne stole Harrison Wells' life across a season finale and a subsequent season. The despised sexual harasser Andrew Kreisberg revealed all in one episodes. Most showrunners would have spread out alternate universes, Jay Garrick and creating Flashpoint across three seasons. The now unhirable sexual harasser Andrew Kreisberg put it all in Season 2.

Somewhat overstretched sexual harasser Andrew Kreisberg seemed to take his eye off THE FLASH for Season 3, but blackballed sexual harasser Andrew Kreisberg gave THE FLASH his full attention for Season 4. Halfway into Season 4, industry punchline and sexual harasser Andrew Kreisberg was fired off every single one of his shows.

It's interesting to look at Season 5's plotting and compare it to Season 1. There are some very good and strong concepts for a season of TV, but the big tentpole moments are extremely few when stretched across 21 episodes and padded out with empty supervillain procedurals. In contrast to Seasons 1 - 2 having Barry constantly learn new speed flourishes, Season 5 had next to no discoveries and made little to no use of Nora picking up Barry's tricks. There simply isn't enough material and rather than add more and make sure every episode is full of twists and turns and revelations and story, what's present is simply overextended.

Universally loathed sexual harasser Andrew Kreisberg has no business working in television (he literally has no more business), but it's painful to consider that he had a strong vision for THE FLASH and his successors don't seem to have any vision for it at all.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

It's weird.  The Monitor showed up on Arrow first, and he had the biggest "cameo" on that.  Then he showed up on Supergirl and Legends, while also sorta being a part of the Flash finale (as the crisis moved up to 2019).

But what are we to make of his appearances on Supergirl and Legends?  On Supergirl, he release's J'onn's (evil?) brother from some sort of imprisonment.  Then he rescued (?) the dead (?) Lex Luthor to end the season.  On Legends, he showed up, did nothing, and was used mostly for comic relief as he was seen eating popcorn.

I don't know what they're setting up with him.  He seemed like a good guy fighting an impossible fight on the Arrow finale (after being a sometimes good / sometimes bad character in the crossover).  On Supergirl, he seemed like a bad guy (working with / helping two supervillains).  On Legends, he did nothing.

It's cool that they're going to have a storyline potentially bleed through all five shows next season, and it's going to potentially be a cool sendoff to Arrow and a big step in the Arrowverse.  But I found the Monitor cameos to be much more confusing than the "WOW" tease that I think we were supposed to be left with.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Hey, I haven’t responded because I haven’t seen the SUPERGIRL and LEGENDS finales yet. I’ve been working out a lot, watching ONCE UPON A TIME in the gym, but I’ve enjoyed the CW shows so much this year that I want to watch these two finales on the big screen. (Uh. On the 55 inch tv in my living room. Which by modern standards is pretty average.)

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

That was the Monitor’s behavior in the year leading up to Crisis back in 1985.  He made brief shadowy cameos in just about every DC title - often as a weapons dealer to super villains.  He wasn’t evil per se’ - more of a neutral party just testing heroes and villains in search of the best people to fight the threat of the Anti-Monitor.

The interesting thing is Luthor.  Alexander Luthor (son of the heroic Earth 3 Lex Luthor) was a pretty integral part Crisis on Infinite Earths.  So they’re likely to play with that character in some form; and the ending of Supergirl could have been related to however they are going to spin their version of that.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Well, I did see the ARROW finale and I liked it. They did a good job of bringing the season to a close and continuing the restoration of the street-level superheroics of Seasons 1 - 2 -- which is why, as Slider_Quinn21 noted, it was just bizarre for a cosmic character like the Anti Monitor to come in at the end. It didn't feel like an episode of ARROW. It felt like a completely different series.

Emiko was adequate, but I'd agree with Slider_Quinn21 that she didn't really come alive as Oliver's sister. It actually reminded me of Season 2 of REVENGE where characters were almost at random declared to be someone's daughter's son's long-lost cousin's roommate's older sister to stir up some quick drama. If they'd had more screentime for her, it might have worked, but she was a bit crowded out by the flash forwards.

I really loved Katherine MacNamara is Mia Smoak, however, and thought that as superhero children go, she was much more exciting than Nora Allen with a streak of wild defiance and a terrifying glee in the fight scenes. I've walked past MacNamara twice on the streets of Toronto and recognized her and she always looked back at me with the pleasant, well-practiced smile of a celebrity who realizes she's been recognized and will gamely provide an autograph and a selfie if asked but is actually a bit tired and would be ever so grateful if you would just keep on walking and leave her to her thoughts.

In contrast, if I saw Mia Smoak on the street, I would turn the other way and run.

I was a bit surprised that Alena Whitlock wasn't formally inducted into the Arrowcave as the new Overwatch. I'm really enjoying Juliana Harkavy and I'm glad she'll be back for Season 8. Wild Dog continues to be great fun. I'm not sure how Season 8 will play out, but the showrunners say they hope Felicity will be in the series finale, so that's something.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

DC Comics has been releasing a series called DOOMSDAY CLOCK which is arguably the SLIDERS REBORN of the Superman mythology. Actually, I would say that DOOMSDAY CLOCK is SLIDERS REBORN, Part 4, "Reminiscence" where Quinn reflects upon five years of crazy continuity and explains why episodes aired in the wrong order, why the extra sliders and Henry disappeared, why Season 3 had monsters, why the Kromagg Prime backstory made no sense, why the show was stuck on the backlot in Season 5, why Quinn-doubles vanished after Season 4 and, most importantly, why it's 1994 in the Pilot but 1995 in "Summer of Love."

DOOMSDAY CLOCK is fascinating in its blatant metatextualism and a sequel to WATCHMEN, a seminal superhero epic published independently of DC Comics in 1986. Written by comic book visionary Alan Moore, WATCHMEN featured superheroes in a starkly realistic context in contrast to other superhero comics. In WATCHMEN, superheroes are a part of American history and led to America's victory in Vietnam with President Nixon never ousted and most heroes becoming part of the military and part of a global arms race of superhumans leading inevitably to another world war.

Mad Scientists: The most powerful of the WATCHMEN heroes, Dr. Manhattan, is a detached, aloof being of omnipotent, time-altering, reality-warping power devoid of empathy or love; becoming super has completely eroded his humanity. One of the supposed heroes attacks civilians, murdering half of New York City, then claims non-existent aliens were responsible in order to unite all countries and avert WWIII.

Dr. Manhattan elects to leave Earth, tiring of human life and its confusion and disorder. WATCHMEN is a cynical, insistently logical take on superheroes declaring that in a realistic world, superpowers would corrupt any human who had them. It was highly influential and very much why other superhero comics adopted the 'grimdark' in which Zach Snyder labours for not only his DC movies, but the WATCHMEN movie he directed.

Genesis: In 2011, DC rebooted its universe with the New 52 relaunch. Many superheroes got new starts while superheroes who sold well (like Batman and Green Lantern) continued their pre-reboot plots as though nothing had changed. Superman had not been selling well; Superman was rebooted into a more alien version to emphasize his detachment from normal people. Some good stories were told with this Superman, but a few years in, DC editorial decided it had been a mistake to eliminate Superman's marriage.

A LOIS AND CLARK mini-series revealed that the pre-reboot Superman had survived the relaunch; he and Lois were living under false identities in this new universe, avoiding contact or interference with the current Superman, and they'd also produced a son named Jon. The contrast was striking; this extremely human Superman struggling to wrangle his kid and having conflicts with his wife was a lot more fun to read.

The Unstuck Man: In a reality-warping plotline where reality around the Loises and Clarks began to break down, it was revealed that the New 52 Superman and Lois had were not doubles, but fragments of the originals. The story ends with the love between the original Lois and Clark restabilizing reality and they absorb their fragments back into themselves. The pre and post New 52 timelines are reconciled into one reality with the original Lois and Clark having never been absent. Their friends Jimmy and Perry and others now remembered Lois giving birth to Jon and Lois and Clark raising him.

It was inelegant, but it took the sting off deleting either version of Superman. DC had decided to merge their two Loises and Clarks much in the same way Dr. Geiger had combined Jerry O'Connell and Robert Floyd. Long-term fans were placated; new readers weren't that interested, but superhero comics lately have really been research and development for movies and TV shows and for superheroes, sales matter less than in other publishing endeavours.

Roads Taken: Despite the happier situation, Superman and Lois were still unsure: what mysterious force had attempted to sever Superman's connection to humanity? What unknown entity had cut open his timeline to remove the Legion? To kill Jonathan and Martha Kent earlier? To erase his marriage? And why did the reality around them begin to fall apart?

This is also the period where Wally West, the red-haired Flash who was erased from existence, also returned to the DC Universe. Wally warns that some dark force from beyond has been changing the DC Universe, erasing Wally, erasing families, legacies, histories, ripping time itself out of the superheroes' lives, making them angrier, colder, crueller and alone. The man responsible for all this is revealed to be Dr. Manhattan from WATCHMEN.

Revelations: Doomsday Clock delves into what Dr. Manhattan has been doing to the DC Universe. Ever since the events of WATCHMEN, he has been wandering. He has become fascinated by the DC Universe's heroes but found them difficult to relate to and their history of shifting retcons and reboots confusing. He sees that it starts out straightforward enough with the Golden Age Earth where Superman debuted in 1938.

But then there's a second Silver Age Earth where Superman first appeared in 1956 and both Earths' timelines begin to overlap. Then the Crisis moves Superman's origin to 1986. And Dr. Manhattan notes that moving Superman's debut changes the underlying structure of reality: Batman and Wonder Woman always come after Superman with the past rewritten to move Bruce Wayne and Diana Prince to be born later in time.

This confounds Manhattan; the confusing, asynchronous, unchronological nature of events in the DC Universe is troubling and he begins to experiment, wondering if he can make the DC Universe more orderly, more sensible.

A Thousand Deaths: He makes one small change in the DC Universe: he observed the origin story of first Green Lantern, Alan Scott, was a 1940 railway engineer who was caught in a bridge collapse. Alan survived by grabbing a nearby lantern that turned out to have paranormal properties that gave him his powers. Manhattan alters time to move the lantern six inches away. Alan Scott dies, never becomes Green Lantern, never establishes the WWII Justice Society, never creates a legacy of heroism that will later inspire the Legion -- and the ripple effect creates the New 52 version of the superheroes and a Superman who debuts in 2011. This Superman is distant from humanity due to losing Jonathan and Martha at a very young age.

Applied Physics: Manhattan declares that he prefers this detached, aloof Superman, that Manhattan finds him more relatable -- and Manhattan is alarmed when the original Superman is restored. Manhattan realizees that the DC Universe is resisting Manhattan's changes, and that the DC Universe is, in his observation, a DC Metaverse, a central reality of which other universes are branches and reflections. It defends itself. And Superman is the crux of the DC Metaverse.

Manhattan notes that supervillains like the Anti Monitor of the 1986 Crisis or the Monarch of the 1994 Zero Hour situation have altered history to make Superman darker and colder, but Superman's hope and humanity are always restored -- and now Superman has become aware of Dr. Manhattan and is coming for him.

"To this universe of hope, I have become the villain," Manhattan observes. "I am a being of inaction on a collision course with a man of action."

The thing I like about DOOMSDAY CLOCK -- everything it's asserting within the fictional reality of the DCU/DCM -- it's true. It is completely true. The text reflects the reality and writer Geoff Johns has found a way to create a beautiful synchronicity between truth and reality from writers trying to alter Superman's hope and optimism to suit passing trends to WATCHMEN having darkened the DC heroes and the reality itself of the DC heroes now fighting back.

I almost wish I could go back and rewrite SLIDERS REBORN to tap into some of these metatextual techniques. The alterations to SLIDERS continuity detailed in "Reminiscence" (5) are explained as Dr. Geiger's Combine experiment retroactively altering the past, changing four years of happy adventures in alternate histories with the original quartet into the horror show it became by Seasons 3 - 4.

However, the motive for this is non-existent: "Reminiscence" asserts that it was completely accidental on Dr. Geiger's part, the unwitting effect of ripping Quinn Mallory and all of his doubles out of all realities, with Quinns (who are mostly sliders) having entangled themselves in so many timelines that removing him is like taking load bearing walls out of the apartment complex that is reality: it begins to collapse upon itself. I wonder if "Reminiscence" would have gained anything from making the alterations more deliberate and malicious.

Eye of the Storm: The other thing I really like is the awareness that Superman's presence specifically rewrites reality in ways that are still not fully understood. This is something you can only get away with when writing of a cultural icon like Superman. In X-MEN FIRST CLASS and APOCALYPSE, it was ridiculous to see Cyclops, Jean Grey and Angel appearing in the 60s and 80s when they would have either been non-existent or infants in order to be at their twentysomething ages in the 2000-era X-MEN films. Superman arriving to Earth later by two to six decades shouldn't change Batman and Wonder Woman debuting in the 1930s and 1940s, but it does -- and the justification that the DC Metaverse has made Superman its crux makes complete sense because this is SUPERMAN.

The Seer: The other fascinating thing is how Dr. Manhattan, while separated from any real emotion beyond empty and uncaring curiosity and a desire for order, seems to be at the closest he can get to experiencing fear. Dr. Manhattan can see time to beginning and end, but when he looks at the end for himself in the DC Universe, he sees Superman facing him and then nothing with the sense that Superman confronting him will result in some sort of cataclysmic end to time itself. Dr. Manhattan is afraid of Superman.

In contrast, I can't actually imagine any villain -- ever -- being afraid of Quinn. Quinn comes off as incompetent and barely functional and prone to being underestimated by his villains.

DOOMSDAY CLOCK is... wow. I normally wait until a series is complete before expressing anything towards it, even positivity, but wow.

Oh, I forgot to post about SUPERGIRL's Season 4 finale! I liked it.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I know I should be reviewing SUPERGIRL, but instead, I'm going to talk about off-brand Bulletproof Coffee. Bulletproof Coffee itself is coffee brewed from Bulletproof beans and blended with their brand of butter and MCT oil.

Informant wrote:

I will admit, I tried a version of the bulletproof coffee because Routh talked about it so glowingly. I didn't spend the billion dollars on the actual brand, or the expensive coffee, but I did some research and tried to figure out how much was legit science and how much was them trying to get people to buy their specific products. Then I tried it for a while...

For me, it was gross. Putting both butter and MCT oil in the coffee was disgusting. Then it became too frothy when I blended it up, so the texture was just greasy froth, and it made me gag. There's some legit science behind the oils and all of that, but I couldn't do it. And while I tried to gag it down for a while, to see if it would give me more energy over time, and make me feel like sunshine and rainbows, it didn't really do that for me.

Maybe there's something to the name brand that I couldn't get in my version. But spending that much money on coffee would probably only make me more depressed. smile

If you want to try a super basic version of it, to get the idea, just put two tablespoons of Kerrygold butter and a couple tablespoons of unrefined coconut oil in your coffee, and blend it all together. The coconut oil isn't quite the same as pure MCT oil, but it's along the same lines.

I was dissolving unsalted butter in my coffee for awhile, but afterwards, I just decided to put more cream in my morning cup as that had about the same fat content and made my coffee creamier. I also decided to go off my low carb diet and start eating junk food and processed frozen foods again and compensate by exercising more. It did not work; I regained much of the weight I'd lost and realized that I simply don't process grains and sugars and starches as efficiently as I burn fat, and I would have to return to my former eating plan. To help get back on track, I bought a bunch of ketogenic diet books and was recently reading THE BULLETPROOF DIET book.

While many of its suggestions for a purely organic diet were impractical and unfeasible, I attempted an actual no-name Bulletproof Coffee. Routh made it sound like Bulletproof Coffee is, very simply, a high fat beverage with the fat warding off cravings for food, providing the body with fuel and slowing the speed at which caffeine metabolizes so as to prevent a caffeine crash.

However, the book went into more detail, explaining that Bulletproof Coffee beans are made in a mold-free process that prevents many of caffeine's unwanted side effects, that the butter provides needed fat -- but that the MCT oil, extracted from coconuts, isn't just helpful for the fat content. MCT stands for medium chain triglycerides and Bulletproof Coffee uses MCTs with a chain of eight carbons (C8 MCT), a form of fat so easy to break down that the body immediately metabolizes it into energy without storing it and encouraging the body to continue breaking down fat for fuel -- which could be very useful for me, someone trying to return to burning fat instead of sugar and starches.

Living in Canada, I made Tim Horton's coffee instead of Bulletproof. Not wanting to spend over a hundred dollars on a month's supply of Brain Octane Oil from Bulletproof, I bought grocery store MCT oil. Not having the patience for butter, I kept adding more cream to the coffee along with the oil and I blended it with an egg beater.

I didn't notice the oil at all in drinking the coffee and the lack of butter helped. I have to say, I felt quite the boost from it. 10,000 step sessions on the treadmill became 20,000. I felt myself waking up more gradually in the mornings with coffee but staying awakened right into the evening. I don't usually eat during business hours but become ravenous upon closing time, but for the last few days, when clocking out, I haven't been super-hungry for food and can cook meat and vegetable meals as needed for nutrition without serving appetite.

It's pretty cool, but unless you're a regular on a CW superhero show, you probably don't need to buy the Bulletproof brand products.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

There was a report that Tom Welling had announced he'd appear on ARROW in Season 8 ("I will be on ARROW next season") immediately followed by a report where Tom seemed confused and thought ARROW had ended with Season 7. Bizarre. Now there are clickbait articles claiming Welling will play Batman but merely show fan art of Welland in Ben Affleck's suit.

Still, it seems worth getting into. I'd love to see Tom Welling in anything! I can't really see him playing Superman as Tyler Hoechlin has that job, but I could see him playing a police officer or a friend. I can't see him playing Batman. The role calls for a certain cultured, moderately elitist, sharp intelligence and that's just not in Welling's wheelhouse. Welling is best playing characters of humble, earnest decency who give freely and without thought; he convinces you of his superhuman goodness. Welling's characters are not characters of calculating thought or defined by brainpower. Instead, Welling gives the sense that doing the right at personal cost is his natural instinct, his default setting, an immediate reflex that requires no thought whatsoever.

I guess I'd have him play Apollo. Apollo is from the Wildstorm comics, a company that presented analogue versions of DC characters in their comics WILDCATS, STORMWATCH and THE AUTHORITY. They had multiple variations on Superman: Mr. Majestic was a regal, royal Superman; Spartan was a robot and an AI Superman and Apollo was Superman as a social justice activist (freeing children from shoe factories) and he was gay and dating Wildstorm's gay version of Batman (the Midnighter). Yeah! I'd have Tom Welling play his best role, Superman -- but gay. It'd be a wonderful step forward for representation. Not as awesome as actually hiring a gay actor, but it's Tom Welling and Tom Welling is only slightly less awesome.

My niece wishes to inform me that it'd preferable for gay actors to play gay roles so that when young people who are gay look up the actors playing gay characters, they feel the actors represent the fans who need them. Oh, alright. Matt Dallas can play Apollo. Tom Welling should play Dick Grayson. My niece informs me that this is acceptable.

1,085 (edited by Slider_Quinn21 2019-08-05 09:22:57)

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

There's a lot of movement on the Crisis front, but nothing on Tom Welling.  The most exciting one for me is the news that Kevin Conroy is going to appear as an older version of Bruce Wayne.  I don't know if he has the physicality to portray Bruce, even as someone who was Bruce a long time ago, but I love Kevin Conroy and love this idea.  Maybe they'll put him in a muscle suit or maybe it'll be an audio-only cameo.  Either way, linking up BTAS with the Arrowverse is just the coolest idea.

The one that has me a bit puzzled is Brandon Routh playing Superman.  The rumor is that he's going to be playing the Kingdom Come Superman, either as that actual version or just in the suit.  It's a cool idea and maybe the biggest idea that they're incorporating into the Arrowverse (because if it's even implied that he's reprising his role from Superman Returns, that would link the Arrowverse to the Christopher Reeve Superman which would easily be the biggest connection).

The reason for my puzzlement is that, with no announcement on Tom Welling, I feel like that part was written for Tom and he turned it down.  It feels like something that they'd do (an older Superman played by the godfather of the Arrowverse) and that Brandon was an equally-interesting and definitely-easier (but obviously second) choice.

If they do Crisis on Infinite Earths and don't make any allusion to the Smallville universe, I think you can essentially write off there ever being a direct connection.

(And to comment on your post, ireactions, if there's ever going to be a Dick Grayson on the CW, it needs to be Jared Padalecki or bust)

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Well, the Kingdom Come Superman was used as a kind of stand-in for the original golden age Earth 2 Superman in the JSA comics; and the older Superman played a significant role in Crisis.  Routh, through his connection to the Christopher Reeve continuity, is probably the closest they can get to a golden age Superman at the moment.   Even Dean Cain beats out Welling as an older Superman.

Additional news coming out says they have another Arrowverse series in development for next season, but won’t say what hero: … 202660964/

There’s been a long rumor of CW wanting to do a Superman series with Tyler Hoechlin, but I would like to see them give something else a chance.  They should just bite the bullet and do a Green Lantern series.  The Kyle Rayner era was largely earth bound at its start (since as the last Green Lantern he had no one to answer to).  Kyle’s story also hits a lot of social notes CW and Berlanti would like - Kyle is Hispanic; he had lesbian neighbors; he frequented Radu’s coffee shop (an immigrant).

I think they’ve all but said Diggle is the John Stewart Green Lantern, and they would likely keep it in-house with their established actors and continuity; but I would rather see Kyle.  Kyle’s never had a real chance in the spotlight where John already had years in the Justice League cartoon.

1,087 (edited by Slider_Quinn21 2019-08-06 12:10:43)

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

TemporalFlux wrote:

Well, the Kingdom Come Superman was used as a kind of stand-in for the original golden age Earth 2 Superman in the JSA comics; and the older Superman played a significant role in Crisis.  Routh, through his connection to the Christopher Reeve continuity, is probably the closest they can get to a golden age Superman at the moment.   Even Dean Cain beats out Welling as an older Superman.

Yeah, I get that.  My point is that the Arrowverse seems to imply that the TV shows are connected but that the movies aren't.  So having someone from Gotham show up might make sense - having someone from the Dark Knight universe might not.  And when you're talking about Superman on TV, yes Dean Cain would have him beat, but I think for the Arrowverse, Tom Welling makes so much sense.

Routh might make more sense in the end because you're going back to the beginning of the modern superhero genre (through Reeve).  But this just feels like something they wrote for Welling and he turned down.


Then there's this: … -character

It's odd because I'm not sure exactly where they can go with this.  If you're talking about a cameo for the fans, I suppose anything would work, but what makes the most sense?  Obviously Welling would be the big one, finally getting him in costume.  The next would be Michael Rosenbaum's Lex, but as the article states, he's already debunked that (but has been known to have tricky negotiations).  Then what?  Would Kristen Kruek's Lana make sense?  Erica Durance's Lois?  Alison Mack is, for sure, out.  Justin Hartley *kinda* made a cameo, but he'd probably be one of the harder ones to get.  Aaron Ashmore's Jimmy? 

Then it starts to get more obscure?  Michael McKean as Perry White?  Annette O'Toole as Martha?  Big characters but maybe not relevant unless you're telling a "everyone in the Smallville universe is dead."

I'm assuming they're pushing for Welling or Rosenbaum.  Hartley would be cool but would almost certainly be a one-day shoot.  It'd be cool to see anyone from Smallville, but I wonder if the majority of that cast has simply moved on.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I love Brandon Routh, but I don't know if I can wrap my head around him playing Superman when we have Tyler Hoechlin doing a great job.

Jared Padelecki would, of course, be a splendid Dick Grayson.


I really loved the last 3 - 4 episodes of SUPERGIRL in its fourth season. It was a spectacular, heartfelt fantasy with truly troubling threats: a criminal presidency using racial tensions and false threats of border security to consolidate power and engage in tyranny with impunity. A deranged fearmonger who injects himself with a what's essentially a steroid form of chemical hatred.

Then we have a Supergirl who discovers that her cape and tights are a liability, her superstrength and superspeed are useless against prejudice and bigotry masquerading as safety and protection, her values a political self-destruct in this climate of human-first activisms. Supergirl takes on everything we're facing and ends up (mostly) dead.

And then it turns around. Supergirl is powerless. Kara Danvers isn't; her journalism powers turn the tide and she exposes the president and sees him marched out of the White House in handcuffs. Ben Lockwood's life as a social justice activist is exposed too: he is a pawn whose paranoia and fear have been exploited to create a figurehead to prop up Lex Luthor and Lockwood ends up overdosing on chemicalized hate and explodes.

The world of SUPERGIRL was so vivid and true and beautiful and comforting that I didn't want to write about it for so long afterwards because it broke my heart to think that it was all make believe and our world doesn't have a Kara Danvers.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

ireactions wrote:

I love Brandon Routh, but I don't know if I can wrap my head around him playing Superman when we have Tyler Hoechlin doing a great job.

Now I can't remember....was the John Wesley Shipp version of Flash that appeared in Elseworlds ever referred to as Barry Allen?  If so, it sorta opens up the doors for "fraternal doubles"  - which would open up the door for a Justin Hartley Oliver Queen or a Tom Welling Superman.

I also neglected to bring up the idea of a Alan Ritchson Aquaman showing up in Crisis.  Or my personal favorite, Kyle Gallner as Bart/Impulse.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Slider_Quinn21 wrote:

Now I can't remember....was the John Wesley Shipp version of Flash that appeared in Elseworlds ever referred to as Barry Allen?  If so, it sorta opens up the doors for "fraternal doubles"  - which would open up the door for a Justin Hartley Oliver Queen or a Tom Welling Superman.

I also neglected to bring up the idea of a Alan Ritchson Aquaman showing up in Crisis.  Or my personal favorite, Kyle Gallner as Bart/Impulse.

I think Shipp represents an older Barry’s appearance whether he’s playing Barry’s father or an alternate Barry.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

This is a ridiculous and unreasonable complaint, but when SUPERGIRL was first announced and when TITANS debuted and when BATWOMAN was launched, it always struck me as absolutely bizarre that we have all these spin-off shows but we don't have the core characters for these different DC families.

In 2006, the Wildstorm 'adult' superheroes line (populated by imitations of DC and Marvel heroes) relaunched its titles: WILDCATS (a bit of an X-MEN knockoff) and THE AUTHORITY (a JUSTICE LEAGUE pastiche) along with other titles such as MIDNIGHTER (Wildstorm's Batman), STORMWATCH: POST HUMAN DIVISION (basically AGENTS OF SHIELD), GEN 13 (an X-MEN/TEEN TITANS knockoff) and a few others. However, due to various production problems, WILDCATS and THE AUTHORITY didn't come out on time or at all even though the other titles did.

It was almost as though SUPERMAN, BATMAN and JUSTICE LEAGUE failed to make it to comic stores and readers had to make do with SUPERGIRL, BATWOMAN, GREEN ARROW, TEEN TITANS, LEGENDS OF TOMORROW, BLACK LIGHTNING and, uh, AGENTS OF SHIELD.

When I look at the CW shows, I can't shake the feeling that we're looking at spin-offs of core shows that were never made. It's weird and it's too late to change it.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

My niece, despite having never seen ARROW, wondered how it would handle Season 8 without Emily Bett Rickards as Felicity. My response: I think Season 7 has done a good job of handling an unfortunate situation and I think Rickards, having fulfilled the six year contract she signed after her Season 1 guest appearances, has completed her obligations.

Season 7's flash forwards have established Felicity's life from post-Season 7 right up to Season 27 of ARROW. Even if we don't see her in Season 8, we know why she and Oliver are apart. We know where Felicity is. We know what she's doing. We know how her story on the show ends. We know that she and Oliver will be reunited and if we don't see it on camera, we know it will happen shortly after the series concludes. Knowing Felicity's whereabouts and activities during Season 8 isn't the same as having Felicity for Season 8, but the writers have made the best of it.


DC Co-Publisher Jim Lee revealed recently that DC Comics' digital sales are flat. That people love DC characters on TV and in film, but they aren't buying comic books digitally (and print sales are continuing to decline). I've said this before: I used to think I was a comic book fan, but I'm not. I read comics because it was the only place to find superheroes.

With superheroes in the cineplex and on streaming services, it doesn't make sense to spend $5 American on one issue of an a SUPERMAN or an X-MEN comic.

The comic book industry is really the superhero comic book industry, a genre that dominates the market, and the superhero comic book industry is failing to justify its existence. HOUSE OF X #1 cost $6 and each subsequent issue costs $5! To follow the X-MEN, SPIDER-MAN and AVENGERS line, you have to spend about $100 a month on 20 comic books that you could read in an hour.

Jim Lee wondered how he might drive more people to buy monthly comics which, to me, is like wondering how to convince more people to buy film cameras or visit Blockbuster to rent VHS cassettes. Over time, these financial models offered terrible value to the customer. Comics offer terrible value for the money. The prices for digital are the same as the prices for print versions.

If comics are to continue as anything beyond research and development for TV and film projects, the monthly 20 page pamphlet format is unworkable. The hackwork of the 1960s that filled these pages with slapdash content will no longer serve. The cost of hiring writers and artists at better rates to produce better 20 page pamphlets has led to a format that is unaffordable for potential readers.

I think the monthly format is no longer workable whether it's in print or digital. A better format might be a quarterly magazine or graphic novel released digitally and in a prestige print format that is the equivalent of the trade paperback collections. In addition, comic books have become so expensive for a consistently dwindling superhero audience: the medium desperately needs to branch out to a wide range of genres. It'd be ridiculous to go to the movies and only ever find medical dramas. Comics need to wean themselves off this overdependence upon superheroes.

If I wanted to save comics, I'd probably look at genres and demographics that are deeply underserved by film and TV. Right now, it's slacker comedies, romcoms, monsters and spoofs. And then I'd aim to produce product that can function in this quarterly or bi-annual format at a price point that offers a better value proposition to the reader.

Spending $5 on a 20 page pamphlet is insane; spending $20 - $30 on a 250 page magazine might make more sense. And the superhero magazines should be written so that casual readers can appreciate what's going on the way most cineplex goers could easily understand AGE OF ULTRON whether they'd seen the previous films or not.

For superheroes, it would be very hard to leave the monthly market, but that market isn't really working anyway. I wonder if the shift could happen gradually. It would require some upfront investment where as the monthly AMAZING SPIDER-MAN and SENSATIONAL SPIDER-MAN are being produced, different teams produce the quarterly magazine content for the following year.

Once the superhero model shifts to the titles receiving four to five 300 page magazines every year instead of one a month, there will likely be a protest that without a monthly supply of new product, the existing market will collapse. While that will happen regardless, DC and Marvel might attempt prequel/interquel material in the same way STAR TREK novels and comics offer prequels and sequels to the TV shows and movies. The magazines should be aimed at a mainstream audience; AMAZING SPIDER-MAN 2020, Volume 2 should work for people who might never have read the comic before.

However, between each of the four volumes, you could have SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN, a monthly pamphlet that might offer additional setup for plot points in the quarterly or could tell stories set in the past. These would be the more intricate, Netflix-series style stories while the quarterlies show the big events.

Or, going back to STAR TREK, the quarterlies would be like STAR TREK (2008), INTO DARKNESS and STAR BEYOND while the monthlies would be like the COUNTDOWN prequels that explained how the TNG cast were involved in the Romulus crisis and why Khan went from looking like Ricardo Montalban to Benedict Cumberbatch. (I don't think BEYOND got any tie-ins.)

Diehard fans who want monthly comics will appreciate extra tie-in content and see the connections with the quarterlies; casual readers need not buy them to appreciate the quarterly magazines. I suspect that as the monthly market fades away, these tie-ins can dissipate as well.

And ideally, the tentpole quarterlies wouldn't just be superheroes.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

ireactions wrote:

A better format might be a quarterly magazine or graphic novel released digitally and in a prestige print format that is the equivalent of the trade paperback collections.

I very-much agree with this.  Essentially the *only* comic books I buy are TBPs.  There was a brief period about 5-10 years ago where I subscribed to Batman comics, but I didn't love it as much as I thought I would.

TBPs show a full story so I know I have (most) of the full story.  I can read it at my leisure and it's usually easier to put up on a bookshelf than a dozen floppy 20-page issues.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

The one thing that makes me unsure about Tom Welling playing Superman in an ARROWVERSE return -- Tom doesn't look like SMALLVILLE's Clark Kent anymore. He looks more like John Winchester. See here: … mp;preview

Tom has aged. The truth is, he probably aged this much on SMALLVILLE over 10 seasons, but he took certain measures to keep playing a young man. He worked out intensely except for the summer between Season 4 and Season 5 when he returned to the fall production overweight after what he called "a summer of gluttony" where the pressure of Seasons 1 - 4 had him spend the summer eating everything in sight and not exercising. He was constantly shaving and had heavy makeup to keep a smooth complexion, he was likely dying his hair, he had to have been on a specific diet and exercise regimen to have a muscled yet sufficiently narrow physique, he was most likely deliberately dehydrated for shirtless scenes. He likely had a dermatologist giving him daily facial treatments. The only reason to do any of that craziness is to look like a CW superhero.

Since then, Tom has stepped away from such roles. He has widened at the midsection. His hair has silvered. His face is weathered. He's lost the specific musculature he had during SMALLVILLE. For SMALLVILLE, he kept himself looking 25 for 10 years. He's now allowing himself to look 42. He doesn't look like a superhero anymore and I'm not sure if he would want to or if he should even be asked to. Surely Mr. Welling has done his time and given us everything he could (except a final shot of him in the costume which wasn't bright, but Welling's creative instincts for shepherding the SMALLVILLE could be needlessly fundamentalistic at times).

He's said himself that he has aged (because he let himself) and he doesn't know if it would be good for fans to see him as he is now playing Clark Kent. If Tom were still playing his SMALLVILLE role today and the show hadn't ended with Season 10, I can't see him staying 25, but I also don't think he would look the way he does now. Likely, he'd have the same widened frame but with muscle instead of fat and he'd have the smooth complexion he had before. And that might be a bit much to have him affect for a guest-appearance. I say let Tom Welling drink beer and eat corndogs in peace.

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Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

A part Tom would be good for is Jor-el.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I don't know what their plan is for Kingdom Come Superman, but if they had him be an older Superman, they could probably have him be an older Superman who's appropriately aged and "widened"

Maybe as he ages, his Kryptonian metabolism slows down.  Maybe Clark's more of a cerebral hero and less of a "fly/run off to save everyone" kind of person.  You could even have him gain weight as the result of some sort of mental manipulation.  They had a heavy Thor in "Endgame" and a fatter/clumsier older Spider-Man in "Into the Spiderverse"  Maybe they could find a way to make that work.

If I were writing it, I'd make it work for Welling like Welling made it work for Rosenbaum in the series finale.  If Tom doesn't want to work out or look 25, that's fine.  We'll write around it.  Even if that means making his role a cameo or filming him in darkness or whatever.  But if they're going to do Crisis on Infinite Earths, I think Welling needs to be involved.  And while it'd be great to have him involved as (insert character), I think he needs to be Clark Kent.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

To me, the defining characteristic of Jor-El is that he is a scientist. Whether he's Marlon Brando or George Lazenby or David Warner or Terence Stamp or Julian Sands or Russell Crowe, he's a thinker, a philosopher, a man of moral and scientific principle. Jerry O'Connell in Seasons 1 - 2 of SLIDERS makes me think of Jor-El as a young man; Julian Sands had that principled bent in his one full guest-appearance as Jor-El in SMALLVILLE.

I don't see Tom Welling being able to play that. It's funny how Tom Welling was costumed like Jerry O'Connell as Quinn (flannel, jeans, long hair), but Welling doesn't perform brainpower like Jerry. Instead, Welling plays instinctive morality and compassion.

I think maybe Welling could play Commissioner Gordon. If I had to cast Welling as a character in the Superman family, I think I'd have Welling play Dan Turpin, a police officer who works with Superman a lot. Turpin was created by Jack Kirby as a police officer who works with Superman and the SUPERMAN animated series modelled him on Jack Kirby. He's a middle-aged police insepctor and it would be a physical fit for Welling.

Slider_Quinn21 wrote:

I think Welling needs to be involved.  And while it'd be great to have him involved as (insert character), I think he needs to be Clark Kent.

If he HAS to be Clark Kent... I don't know if Tom would be willing to spend three months consuming no carbs and engaging in heavy cardio and weightlifting three times a day, living on egg white omelettes and bacon and salad greens and little else, doing push-ups and crunches to collapsing exhaustion before each filming day -- all for one guest-appearance.

I would probably suggest that Tom play the "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow" version of Superman. I'd say that in the offscreen Season 18 of SMALLVILLE, Clark gave up his powers to save Lois from a Sun Eater by transferring all of his solar energy into the monster and losing all his powers. Since then, Clark has lived as a human, worked as a reporter and mentored Connor Kent (the Lucas Grabeel-played Lex clone) as the new Superman, so Clark is now unshaven and at the average size of most 42-year-old men who aren't playing action heroes in TV and film.

Brandon Routh (whom I think is playing the KINGDOM COME Superman) strikes me as someone who is quite fixated on nutrition. During the miserable period where his SUPERMAN RETURNS sequel option was soon to expire, he was asked yet again when the sequel was coming. Routh said he had no idea, but he had been exercising a lot after a break between film roles. When asked if this was for Superman, Routh said that it wasn't; he was working out "just to do it." Routh lives for exercise and fitness. I think Welling lives for his family having spent 10 years living for SMALLVILLE and acting is now just a day job.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Yeah, I don't want to make Tom work out if he doesn't want to.  I don't want him to suffer for the Arrowverse.

What's great about this situation is that I think you can make it work however you want.  If Welling is the only one returning from the Smallville universe, you can say that Clark has been Superman for 200 years.  He's gotten over losing Lois and Jimmy and Perry and everyone because he understands that it's his burden to carry.  That he might look like he's in his 40s, but his Kryptonian genes keep him looking middle aged...but his metabolism is finally starting to slow down.  Despite that, he's still as fast and strong as he's ever been.

Or you can have Welling's Superman tell Hoechlin's Superman to watch out for the cheeseburgers.

It doesn't really matter to me.  If Superman can live for hundreds of years, maybe his early 20s-30s are simply the tween years for humans where everyone is skinny.  And that now that he's (whatever age you want him to be), he just doesn't look like a Greek God anymore.  Which is fine.

People saw Christopher Reeve in a wheelchair, and they still saw him as Superman.  Tom can bald and gain weight all he want, and I'll still see him as Clark Kent.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I just want to say: I don't think Tom Welling looks out of shape, I don't think he looks fat, I don't think he looks like he let himself go. I think Tom Welling looks like a normal, healthy, average, middle-aged man. :-)

1,100 (edited by Slider_Quinn21 2019-08-21 10:11:21)

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Exactly - I would think, at some point, Clark wouldn't look 25 either.  Since Smallville could exists in our past, it could also exist in the Arrowverse's past.  And depending on how far back you want to put it, you could place Clark in that time period.  Whatever age a middle aged superpowered Kryptonian is.

And, again, if you put Clark in a time far in Smallville's future, you eliminate any future need for a crossover.  The Smallville universe went on, everyone lived full, happy lives, the comics exist, etc....but now they're all gone.  So no need to bother Michael Rosenbaum or Kristen Kruek or Justin Hartley or bother with the tragedies surrounding the show.

Tom Welling's Clark is the only one who still exists.