151 (edited by Slider_Quinn21 2018-01-03 08:58:03)

Re: Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker [spoilers]

Something I've been thinking about since I saw the movie a second time?  Does Rian Johnson hate the Force Awakens?  I feel like he took a lot of stuff from that movie and either openly made fun of it or snuffed it out.  Is it pretty consistent that people that liked TFA didn't like TLJ and vice versa?

Things I've noticed:

The Rey/Luke scene:
TFA - Treated like a huge deal/cliffhanger.
TLJ - Treated like a joke.  Luke throws the lightsaber away and walks off.

Anakin's Lightsaber
TFA -This is the key.  Why is it back after so long?  How did it get here?  Now that Luke has it, what will happen?!?
TLJ - Luke doesn't care about it.  Ends up destroyed.

Kylo Ren's Costume:
TFA - "Here's your new Vader!"
TLJ - Treated like a joke.  Snoke specifically says that the helmet and the costume is dumb, and it seems like Kylo did it on his own because he thought it looked cool.  Kylo destroys the helmet and never wears it again.

Rey's Parents:
TFA - A huge mystery.  Maybe *the* mystery of the entire new trilogy.
TLJ - They were no one.  Doesn't matter.

Maz:
TFA - This character knows everything.  Knows everyone.  She holds all the secrets if you know how to ask.
TLJ - She doesn't have time for this movie.  Get your deus ex machina somewhere else.

Hux:
TFA - Here's your new Tarkin.
TLJ - Except he's a total idiot.

Phasma:
TFA - She's a badass.  You'll see.
TLJ - Not really.  Maybe dead?

Snoke:
TFA - This dude is the ultimate evil.  Very mysterious.  Fear him.
TLJ - Wears a dumb-looking gold robe.  Cut in half.  He doesn't matter.

Rey:
TFA - Everyone loves Rey, and she's great at everything.  Always rescues herself.
TLJ - Luke wants nothing to do with her.  Suspects she might be evil.  She struggles with her training.  Has to be rescued by Kylo in the Throne Room.

Finn and Poe:
TFA - Finn is an insider with so much knowledge of the First Order.  Can use that to take them down, and Poe is the only guy daring enough to help him do it.
TLJ - Finn's plan is ridiculous and doesn't work at all.  Nearly gets everyone killed.  Poe's plans are reckless and gets tons of people killed.

Nostalgia:
TFA - Star Wars is the best!  Here's a reference!  And another!  Look, a bigger Death Star!  The Millennium Falcon!  Anakin's Lightsaber!
TLJ - "Let the past die.  Kill it if you have to."

Re: Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker [spoilers]

Again Kevin Smith made a big deal about this, and I think while not good or bad, a lot of fans felt it was ill-advised to just scrap so many TFA talking points.  That said, Rian has said he started righting the script before TFA was released, so he probably read the script at that point only.  For instance, he supposedly didn't anticipate such a cult interest in the identity of Snoke.  That said, scrapping so many plot points, or revealing highly lame answers to them, really annoyed many people.  Look, this is the job of the producers to reign something like this in.  It's bizarre, because Lucas Film seem to micromanage everything about these new films, yet went along with all of this.

Re: Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker [spoilers]

Star Wars has never been about mysteries, and I think the bigger sin is setting up the mysteries at all.  I think Rian Johnson agreed with that, and he's stated as much.  He said if Star Wars is going to survive, it has to become something more than what it was.

The Last Jedi is divisive because it's a hard reset to what JJ Abrams did.  Which is why it's going to be such a problem when JJ comes back.

Re: Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker [spoilers]

I wonder how The Last Jedi would've been received if these changes were made:

- Rose and Finn sneak onto Snoke's ship.  Evil BB8 does not notice them.

- The throne room sequence from Rey's entrance to the death of the imperial guards is the same

- The rebels escape is the same

- When Kylo asks Rey to go with him, we don't see her answer.  It cuts away with Kylo holding his hand out and her looking at him.

- Rose and Finn work on the tracking computer.  They look back and DJ is gone.

- Hux enters the throne room to find Snoke and the imperial guards dead.  No one else is there.  No sign of Kylo or Rey.  Hux assumes command just as the final Resistance ship runs out of fuel. 

- Rose finishes her work and Finn radios to Poe to jump to light speed.  No one answers.  They look out a nearby window to see the ship explode.  As far as they know, the Resistance was just ended.

- Movie ends with the Resistance (the whole group that escaped) on the same red planet.  Their escape worked.  Hux never finds out that they got away.  Finn and Rose are stuck on the big destroyer, thinking they're alone now.  Kylo and Rey are gone.  Hux is in command of the First Order but also thinks the war is over.  Luke's story is still incomplete.

Ways I think it works:

1. It's a shorter movie.  The extra scenes on Ahch-To don't happen.

2. There's less failure (but still enough for the theme to work).  Finn and Rose accomplish their goals - it's just too late to save the ship (and Holdo, I guess).  The Resistance makes a full escape - their plan works perfectly.  Perhaps Rey got through to Kylo.

3. Luke is still an option to use for Episode IX (especially since Leia essentially says goodbye in this movie).

4. The galaxy is in a really interesting place.  The First Order is led by an incompetent fool who thinks the war is over.  The Resistance is small but not too small.  Help could still be coming.  And completely outside of the First Order/Resistance fight is Kylo and Rey, who have disappeared from the playing board.  Are they going to find the Knights of Ren?  Are they on the good side?  Or the bad side?  What will Finn and Rose do now, especially since Finn thinks all his friends are dead?

5. It leaves a lot of mysteries alive (which people seem to love).

What do we think?

Re: Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker [spoilers]

I think it's terrible. I think your film would be the equivalent of those crazy Men's Rights Activists who created a fan edit of the movie where they cut any women and people of colour. Incoherent and baffling.

I don't think you're a terrible writer, I just think that you're better telling YOUR stories rather than trying to tweak someone else's material to suit your sensibilities and interests.

Honestly, the only thing I'd change about THE LAST JEDI is swapping DJ for Lando... And even then, I'm not sure I would. THE LAST JEDI is so intricate and detailed that it'd be better to make a different movie than to mess around with this one.

But I'm just one person.

Re: Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker [spoilers]

Well, I don't know if I love it myself...but I watched the Red Letter Media review on Last Jedi and a lot of the complaints seem to be that nothing is really accomplished.  The film's theme about failure is just not getting through to people.

They also had a problem with Kylo "turning good" and then immediately undercutting that twist by becoming the cliche bad guy again.  In watching Kylo's character, I don't think he wants anything to do with ruling the galaxy.  He and Rey have similar goals - they want to understand their place in the galaxy.  Having them leave suits their interests.

And people seem to want there to be more mystery.  I injected a ton of that stuff in there.

So it's not about whether it'd make the movie better (because I liked it just fine) - would it have been better received by the people who hated it?

Re: Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker [spoilers]

I watched Solo: A Star Wars movie.

That sure was a movie that I watched.

(that's my entire review)

Re: Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker [spoilers]

I haven't seen SOLO and I'm going to try to keep this post short and follow my fiction-restricted diet.

Star Wars: Episode IX - "The Rise of Skywalker" Trailer:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7slB4-0PDU

Is director JJ Abrams going to backtrack on THE LAST JEDI and have Rey be Luke's daughter after all? It was implied by the visual composition of THE FORCE AWAKENS (Han reaches out to Kylo and dies; Rey reaches out to Luke with hope) and the original script (in which Luke would react to Rey by rushing towards her and embracing her). The RISE OF SKYWALKER title is designed to prompt speculation.

Alternatively, the Jedi truly are extinct and Skywalker could be a new designation of Force sensitive individuals. As the Empire rebranded into the First Order and the Rebels into the Republic, the Jedi are renamed the Skywalkers.

Re: Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker [spoilers]

I have a complicated relationship with the sequels, but I'm pretty happy with the revelation that Rey is no one.  I hope that doesn't get retconned because I think it creates a great symmetry.  Kylo believes he's royalty.  That his control of the universe is deserved because of his bloodline.  For the Force to choose a random person to rise up to meet him is a great narrative work.  Kylo and Rey are true opposites.  If they end up as cousins...I don't know.

I think you're right - it's a designation of some sort.

I was more intrigued by the Emperor's cackle.  Is he back?  Cloned?  Was he Snoke?

Re: Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker [spoilers]

He could be a Force ghost haunting the wreckage of the Death Star, an artificial intelligence, a flashback or a voicemail.

Re: Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker [spoilers]

I'm waiting until the Marvel shows hit Disney+ to subscribe. But I've read that the STAR WARS (1977) film on Disney+ has yet another George Lucas revision in addition to all the other dumbass alterations he's made over the years: he's added a new shot to Greedo's death scene where Greedo now yells "Maclunkey!" before he and Han fire on each other and Greedo inexplicably fails to shoot a target sitting across a table from him while Han's head nonsensically inclines to the left while Han's blaster kills Greedo.

... it's bizarre. The insert shot of Greedo with his new line breaks the flow of the blaster fire immediately following the, "I've been waiting a long time for this, Solo" / "Yeah, I'll bet you have" exchange. It's a discordant note because "Maclunkey" is not subtitled, so the audience can't even understand what Greedo is saying unless they remember watching THE PHANTOM MENACE and recalling that at one point, the Sebulba pod racer tells Anakin, "Maclunkey," subtitled as "This will be the end of you." https://slate.com/culture/2019/11/star- … unkey.html

Dear God, WHY?! It looks like Lucas made this revision for the 4K release before he sold the franchise to Disney (and, to be fair, gave most of the money to wildlife preservations, inner city youth programs, museums and educational initiatives).

Anyway, I'm never going to watch it. I have the Despecialized Versions. Okay, that's not entirely true -- I watch the blu-ray version of EMPIRE STRIKES BACK.

Re: Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker [spoilers]

Since Disney owns it all now (thanks to buying Fox), they should make the option available to watch the original trilogy as it was first presented in theaters.  Yeah - it would have visual fx problems, but that’s part of the charm.

Re: Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker [spoilers]

Part of Lucas' deal with Disney during the sale was that they would not go back and undo the various special editions and release a 1977 theatrical edition.

Earth Prime | The Definitive Source for Sliders™

Re: Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker [spoilers]

I really enjoyed RISE OF SKYWALKER and thought JJ Abrams made an enjoyable, professional product that will make the fans happy.

Re: Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker [spoilers]

I enjoyed it; but I wish we could have had more of *that* Adam Driver in the rest of the series.

S
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I saw a little Han Solo coming out in him at the end there.  It was a good fit.

Re: Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker [spoilers]

Slider_Quinn21 wrote:

Something I've been thinking about since I saw the movie a second time?  Does Rian Johnson hate the Force Awakens?  I feel like he took a lot of stuff from that movie and either openly made fun of it or snuffed it out.  Is it pretty consistent that people that liked TFA didn't like TLJ and vice versa?

Slider_Quinn21 made a list of all the ways THE LAST JEDI dismissed THE FORCE AWAKENS and I have updated his list to reflect THE RISE OF SKYWALKER (spoilers follow):





















The Rey/Luke scene where Rey holds Luke's lightsaber out to him:
TFA - Treated like a huge deal/cliffhanger.
TLJ - Treated like a joke.  Luke throws the lightsaber away and walks off.
ROS - Rey throws Luke's rebuilt lightsaber towards a fire, Luke catches it and remarks that a Jedi's weapon should be treated with more respect.

Anakin's Lightsaber
TFA -This is the key.  Why is it back after so long?  How did it get here?  Now that Luke has it, what will happen?!?
TLJ - Luke doesn't care about it.  Ends up destroyed.
ROS - Leia has rebuilt the blade and presents it to Rey to indicate that she is a worthy inheritor to the family legacy. Rey later tries to destroy it again, but Luke tells her that he was wrong to throw it away as he did and wrong to turn his back on the galaxy.

Kylo Ren's Costume:
TFA - "Here's your new Vader!"
TLJ - Treated like a joke.  Snoke specifically says that the helmet and the costume is dumb, and it seems like Kylo did it on his own because he thought it looked cool.  Kylo destroys the helmet and never wears it again.
ROS - Kylo rebuilds the helmet but keeps taking it off and ultimately sheds it as he switches sides.

Rey's Parents:
TFA - A huge mystery.  Maybe *the* mystery of the entire new trilogy.
TLJ - They were no one.  Doesn't matter.
ROS - Rey's parents were no one; her grandfather was Emperor Palpatine (possibly procreating in yet another one of his Force-augmented genetics experiments as he created Anakin), planning to use Rey as a younger vessel to house his consciousness and continue his reign of terror.

Maz:
TFA - This character knows everything.  Knows everyone.  She holds all the secrets if you know how to ask.
TLJ - She doesn't have time for this movie.  Get your deus ex machina somewhere else.
ROS - Provides exposition to cover what Carrie Fisher's limited dialogue couldn't explain; that Leia is giving herself over to the Force in an effort to save Rey from Kylo Ren.

Hux:
TFA - Here's your new Tarkin.
TLJ - Except he's a total idiot.
ROS - And ultimately self-serving, not interested in the First Order except for his rank and class, and fed up with Kylo Ren's leadership.

Phasma:
TFA - She's a badass.  You'll see.
TLJ - Not really.  Maybe dead?
ROS - Really dead.

Snoke:
TFA - This dude is the ultimate evil.  Very mysterious.  Fear him.
TLJ - Wears a dumb-looking gold robe.  Cut in half.  He doesn't matter.
ROS - And was ultimately a clone (and one of many) whom Palpatine used as a puppet for his own voice and actions as the actual Palpatine was a damaged, flawed clone form dependent upon life support systems that kept him isolated to a single location.

Rey:
TFA - Everyone loves Rey, and she's great at everything.  Always rescues herself.
TLJ - Luke wants nothing to do with her.  Suspects she might be evil.  She struggles with her training.  Has to be rescued by Kylo in the Throne Room.
ROS - Is the granddaughter of Emperor Palpatine which Luke and Leia sensed and knew all along and is why she had her astonishing control of the Force and machines and weapons with zero training. Can access dark side powers like Force lightning, but also light side powers like Force healing. Becomes the living embodiment of all Jedi in all history and chooses, with Luke and Leia's blessing, to declare her name to be "Rey Skywalker."

Finn and Poe:
TFA - Finn is an insider with so much knowledge of the First Order.  Can use that to take them down, and Poe is the only guy daring enough to help him do it.
TLJ - Finn's plan is ridiculous and doesn't work at all.  Nearly gets everyone killed.  Poe's plans are reckless and gets tons of people killed.
ROS - Finn and Poe have learned to work together and when to take chances and when not to; they've also learned that while they couldn't ask the galaxy to come to their rescue as a doomed resistance, they can lead the galaxy if their fight offers the chance to truly make a difference. Also, they note that certain tactics in TLJ like the Holdo Maneuver were unique to certain individuals and are unlikely to be replicated.

Nostalgia:
TFA - Star Wars is the best!  Here's a reference!  And another!  Look, a bigger Death Star!  The Millennium Falcon!  Anakin's Lightsaber!
TLJ - "Let the past die.  Kill it if you have to."
ROS - Here's a reference and another and another, look, Star Destroyers with Death Star weaponry, the Falcon, Anakin's lightsaber and the voices of Samuel L. Jackson, Liam Neeson, Hayden Christiansen, Ewan McGregor, Olivia D'Abo, Ashley Eckstein, Jennifer Hale, Frank Oz, Angelique Perrin and Freddie Prinze Jr.! But also some small roles from various non-Jedi and Finn to indicate that the Jedi are not the be-all, end-all of the Force as TLJ established -- although we'll definitely stick to Jedi characters AND have Luke Skywalker tell Rey that he was wrong to say that the Jedi should end and that it's important that she preserve the Jedi and face down Palpatine.

A lot of fans seem to consider THE RISE OF SKYWALKER a repudiation of THE LAST JEDI just as Slider_Quinn21 felt THE LAST JEDI was a counterargument against THE FORCE AWAKENS.

I personally feel a bit torn about it. I really liked THE LAST JEDI and RISE OF SKYWALKER and I don't feel that the two movies are against each other, but they are bringing in different perspectives and have very different goals and while RISE OF SKYWALKER hits different notes from THE LAST JEDI, I personally feel that those notes are mostly in harmony.

The vast majority of the world disagrees strongly and I don't want to go full Informant and say that everyone else is wrong; I'll just say that I like Rian Johnson a lot, I like JJ Abrams a lot, but they don't make the same kinds of movies and I have space in my heart for both.

Re: Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker [spoilers]

I enjoyed RISE OF SKYWALKER and am happy with it, but a lot of people aren't and I have a lot of room in my heart and head for different views.

Style: RISE OF SKYWALKER is so tautly, quickly, forcefully paced that it goes by fast. JJ Abrams is an entertainer whereas Rian Johnson is a philosopher. Rian Johnson was making pointed remarks about dynastic bloodlines, military strategy, theocratic governance and the hollowness of legacies. Abrams is making the point that it is COOL to have the Millennium Falcon flash-jump to different planets and to have Rey take down a TIE Interceptor with a lightsaber.

Space: STAR WARS has the space to welcome both, but it does leave RISE OF SKYWALKER open to valid criticisms: that it is shallow where THE LAST JEDI was deep. Also, THE LAST JEDI let the Empire/First Order win, had the Rebels/Resistance reduced from an army of hundreds of thousands to maybe 40 - 50 people aboard the Falcon, the Jedi represented only by Leia (whose actor died shortly after filming) and Rey (who is physically capable but emotionally troubled).

This is a massive shift from the capable if underpowered Rebels of A NEW HOPE and EMPIRE and a total reversal of their apparent victory in RETURN OF THE JEDI.

Repetition: In contrast, RISE OF SKYWALKER ends with the Rebels/Resistance having triumphed by killing Emperor Palpatine which seems significantly important except they'd accomplished the same thing in RETURN OF THE JEDI which means RISE OF SKYWALKER is in the unfortunate position of resurrecting Palpatine just to kill him again.

In a few decades time, we may find Rey leading a losing resistance once again while the Empire dominates the galaxy with, I dunno, a resurrected Phasma in charge.

Mastermind: However. RISE OF SKYWALKER establishes that the destruction of the Death Star 2.0 in RETURN OF THE JEDI was merely a decisive battle and that the Emperor survived but in so damaged a body that he can't leave his life support system. Which means that the Resistance being on the losing side of THE FORCE AWAKENS and THE LAST JEDI was all due to the Emperor running the First Order through the Emperor speaking through the Snoke clones (earlier versions of which are glimpsed in Palpatine's lair).

Details: Furthermore, RISE establishes that the planet of Exogol houses the Emperor's fleet; destroy the fleet, kill the Emperor, and the First Order loses all coordination and leadership as well as their most powerful weapons, so even though RETURN declared that destroying the Death Star 2.0 would be the final and decisive battle, RISE does some work to say that this showdown on Exogol will truly be the final and decisive battle and they meant it before but this time they mean it for realzies, but this is a yet another rerun.

RISE splits various hairs to claim this finale really counts, but if RETURN didn't count, why should this?

Reversal: Fans are also offended by Luke saying that he was wrong to have the attitude he did in THE LAST JEDI and Rey being revealed as not being nobody from nowhere but the Empress of the Sith and Palatine's granddaughter.

Enjoyable: I personally am not blind to these problems, but I feel that RISE OF SKYWALKER gets past all of these issues by being so quickly paced. Each scene flies by so fast with a minimum of exposition. Chris Terrio's script is expressive and sparingly dialogued. Where THE LAST JEDI was deliberate and controlled, RISE OF SKYWALKER is a relentless adrenaline burst and skillfully hurried and therefore a lot of fun.

Entertainer: There's also a certain desperation that reflects the pressure Abrams was under. Abrams has talked about how, when directing STAR TREK: INTO DARKNESS, he lost track of the core themes of the story and just tried to make each scene as exciting as possible and hoped it would be coherent.

It looks like he has attempted the same with RISE OF SKYWALKER where he was parachuted into the film with two years to write, pre-produce, film and edit the movie; the previous script had been thrown out due to Carrie Fisher's death.

Continuation: Rian Johnson shuttered the Resistance, killed off Luke, left the First Order victorious, and suggested that the First Order would be defeated not by the Jedi and not by the Resistance but by a new generation of heroes. Abrams had to create a script that would follow up on all that but also feature Daisy Ridley, John Boyega and Oscar Isaacs front and center, address Carrie Fisher's absence, resolve the Resistance/First Order conflict, conclude Kylo Ren's situation and serve as a finale.

Necessities: As a result, some of Abrams' obligations conflict with Rian Johnson's vision in THE LAST JEDI; THE LAST JEDI proposes that the STAR WARS universe continue with new characters in a First Order dominated galaxy with an open-ended approach; Abrams is required to cobble together a conclusion by undoing RETURN OF THE JEDI to restage its victory.

THE LAST JEDI suggests moving onto new characters represented by the boy with the broom and Rose Tico; Abrams is contractually obligated to have his core cast feature front and center and build their relationships with each other and conclude them in the same movie as they had only one scene together in the previous film.

Acknowledgement Without Focus: Due to this need, Rose Tico becomes anonymous base personnel. RISE OF SKYWALKER also fails to focus on the idea that there may be heroes outside the Resistance and the Jedi Order and the Skywalker families, but it does nod to it with Finn and Jannah both being former stormtroopers who have Force sensitivity.

And due to the need to reintroduce the Emperor to defeat him again and offer a sense of closure, Abrams is required to link him to a core cast member and chooses to reveal him as Rey's grandfather.

Blood: This last one rankles severely with fans. Fans who are adopted children were hurt by RISE OF SKYWALKER suggesting that people need to have defined bloodlines to have identities; critics have noted that the idea of children of legacies being above others is undemocratic and has no place in a world where people should be evaluated by ability and attitude over birth; viewers are irked that RISE OF SKYWALKER suggests that only people from important families can make a difference.

Harmony: Personally, I see all of that, but what I also see is another note to THE LAST JEDI, a film that declared that heroes can come from anywhere. When Rey confessed in THE LAST JEDI that her parents "were nobody," it was a moment of grief and loss.

When Rey discovers that her grandfather is Palpatine, she is consumed with self-loathing, isolating herself to Ahch To as Luke did, burning her spacecraft, throwing away the lightsaber -- only for Luke to catch it and inform her that Luke and Leia have known all along about Rey's parentage and still chose to teach her, Luke in his indirect and cynical fashion and Leia with wholehearted love and devotion.

And while THE LAST JEDI has Luke declaring that it is time for the Jedi to end, his final scenes in that film had him changing his mind, saying that he wouldn't be the last after all, so Luke in RISE OF SKYWALKER declaring that he was wrong in THE LAST JEDI to isolate himself is continuing Luke from where Rian Johnson left him.

Legacy: THE LAST JEDI also had Luke calling the Jedi Order a legacy of failure noting that the prequels showed them to be incompetent (they allow slave labour to prosper), blind (they allowed the Sith to rise in their own government) and not worth preserving. RISE OF SKYWALKER has Luke telling Rey that she must face Palpatine or the Jedi will die, but Luke is noticeably not calling for the Jedi to be restored as a governing body; he merely wants there to be at least one Jedi in the galaxy and for that Jedi to be Rey.

Identity: There is affirmation and beauty in Luke revealing that he and his sister chose to see Rey in terms of who she was and could be instead of where she came from because, as THE LAST JEDI declared, heroes can indeed come from anywhere and I think that's summed up beautifully in the final scene. "I'm Rey." "'Rey' who?" "Rey Skywalker."

In taking on the Skywalker name with Luke and Leia watching approvingly, Rey is committing not to bloodlines -- but to the legend of Luke Skywalker as a person who will (in the end) help people find light and hope whether they're Darth Vader or the last 40 - 50 fighters in a failed Resistance or the Empress of the Sith.

Action: And it was nice to see all this in a fast-paced, driven, exciting action movie with so many cool scenes from Rey and Kylo fighting in the wreckage of the Death Star 2.0, the light-speed skipping sequences, Rey's obstacle course, Rey aided to victory by previous the voices of Jedi.

There's also some nice loophole logic where the Emperor declares that Rey killing him in rage and hatred will allow him to possess her body; Rey instead reflects the Emperor's lightning back at him and he kills himself.

I liked THE LAST JEDI as a thoughtful, contemplative film of defeat and I like RISE OF SKYWALKER as a widescreen action extravaganza of victory that harmonizes with THE LAST JEDI but is more of a crowdpleaser. I find that THE LAST JEDI and RISE OF SKYWALKER aren't at odds; they're saying similar things but with very different words spoken by very different people and I'm happy to have both.

Disclaimer: I may be in the minority on this. I liked JUSTICE LEAGUE, after all.

Re: Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker [spoilers]

I had a great time watching the film in the theater yesterday, so there's not much I can really say to bash or praise it.  LucasFilm made it quite clear this one was wrapping up the Skywalker story, and it did that for sure.  I felt the story itself, was very strong, overflowing with Star Wars mythos and the action was nonstop.  The major issue I had was the editing.  Way too often, it was abundantly clear that they were chopping massive swaths of story out of the film, leaving the viewer with head-scratching confusion.  The Lorii/Poe interaction, big time.  Poe and Finn sadly remained complete corn-balls right to the end, a drastically lame choice for a series that gave us Solo and Lando.  Rey was amazing, Daisy was amazing, well done.  Driver, ehhhh, just can't get used to him.  The cameos were terrific.  Again, had this been a mini-series or TWO movies rather than one, the story would really have come to life.  As a result, it was just rushed way too much.  I have to think an extended cut could be in the cards that might return the pace to normal.

Re: Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker [spoilers]

Well, I think ireactions did a fantastic job of summarizing a lot of things about the movie.  So I'll just make a list of my thoughts since it will be hard to be a lot more eloquent and detailed than him.

- Overall, I had fun with it.  I think what they decided to go with worked, I thought the movie was fun, and I think the character pieces worked.  Leia was a bit distracting, but I thought their use of her was nice and effective.  I feel pretty good in thinking that they were almost able to do exactly what they wanted with her.

- I think it's a fine wrap-up.  I don't necessarily agree with Grizzlor that it's definitely a wrap-up of the Skywalker story.  Especially because of what I'm about to get into.

- Palpatine.  I was very uneasy with this plot direction for a lot of reasons, which I'll hopefully get to.  I'd be curious to know why this path was chosen.  Was this JJ's plan all along?  Or did he have to pivot when Rian Johnson killed Snoke?  Was this a matter of sticking to the plan, or did they have to frantically throw together a new plan when Rian Johnson left his movie the way he did?  I don't know.  I liked The Last Jedi, but I do think it's a movie that feels either complete or ends on such a low note that it's hard to imagine the good guys winning.

The problem with using Palpatine are two-fold.  The first is the bigger concern, and that it just comes so far out of left field.  Nick Mason on the Weekly Planet podcast had a good point - The Rise of Skywalker doesn't feel like a sequel to either Last Jedi or even the Force Awakens.  It feels like a sequel to an unproduced Episode VIII that exists only in JJ Abrams' head.  I'm sure they'll retcon stuff to make pieces fit, but it feels like so much is missing since there weren't really any indications that Palpatine was alive or pulling any strings.  There were no hints, no clues, and no mystery boxes even implying that.

And I get where they're coming from.  If this series has an overarching villain, it's Palpatine.  He's there in Episode I and he's there in Episode VI.  The second that the sequel trilogy's Darth Vader was revealed to be Han and Leia's son, we knew he wasn't going to be the overall bad guy.  So when Snoke died...who else was there?  Hux?  Laughable.  They could've brought back Snoke in the same nebulous way they brought back Palpatine....but why?  Snoke is barely a character.  Even if you reveal him as Plageous - that's essentially a brand-new character.  So outside of just doing a brand-new character, why not bring in someone who was the villain for at least six of the movies.  Bringing him in at the last minute worked in Episode VI.  Why not here?

Well....we've been there.  We've seen that.  Not only does it undercut Episode VI's ending, I think it sorta undercuts this movie's ending.  Is the Emperor dead this time?  Was he actually dead the first time?  Does the movie even tell us what happened?  Is he a clone?  Or did he survive falling down that shaft?  The comics famously had a situation where Sidious simply transfers into a new clone whenever he dies.  So is that possible again?  Is there any reason to believe that Rey wouldn't end up fighting the Emperor again?  And if so, can this really count as a definitive ending?

- Dismissing Rian Johnson so hard.  I get it.  People didn't like the Last Jedi.  But it's one of the 9 episodes of this saga.  People don't like Episode I, but Darth Maul has been resurrected into canon because people like him.  There's a whole TV show about the events between Episodes II and III.  The prequels are hated, but there hasn't been any effort to erase them from existence. 

As ireactions showed, JJ Abrams and Rian Johnson essentially played tennis with this trilogy.  JJ Abrams did some stuff.  Rian Johnson turned that stuff on its ear and overrode some of it.  JJ Abrams did the same.

And that's fine.  Rian Johnson essentially tried to make Kylo Ren the main bad guy, but JJ (obviously) wanted him to be a character that can be redeemed.  Rian Johnson wanted to make a statement that the Force doesn't care what your last name is - it can pick anyone to stand up and face the darkness - that even an orphan scavenger girl can stand up against the Crown Prince from the most powerful family in the galaxy, but JJ wanted her to be someone important.  Rian Johnson thought the mask was stupid, but JJ knew they could sell toys and that they needed the mask for Galaxy's Edge.

But therein lies the problem.  You have created a trilogy that became a tug of war against itself.  I don't think TROS is disrespectful to the Last Jedi, but it obviously wants to do its own thing.  So it almost makes TLJ seem like an unrelated adventure, and like Nick Mason said, it makes TROS feel like a sequel to a movie we never got.  It feels disjointed because it's a three-episode TV show with no second episode.

In retrospect, they either needed to stick with the plan of 3 different directors or have JJ direct all three.  Because having Rian Johnson subvert JJ Abrams' ideas obviously hurt the flow of the movies.  And I think if Colin Trevorrow or anyone else had directed this, I think it would've one it it's own direction instead of (at times) awkwardly pivoting in a direction that it was no longer traveling.

Because I think Rian Johnson left breadcrumbs on how he wanted his version of the story to end.  The little boy with the mop at the end showed that anyone can have the force.  So maybe Trevorrow or Deborah Chow's version ends with a bunch of Reys stepping up to fight the evil of the galaxy.  Nobodies standing up against the Skywalker legacy that had so much good and bad.  I don't know - JJ didn't seem to care about that much.

- The Batman v Superman / Justice League connection.  Chris Terrio co-wrote this film.  He also co-wrote BvS and Justice League.  I bring this about because I think those movies are tied to these movies.  Batman v Superman was the Last Jedi for DC.  Zack Snyder, love him or hate him, did some things with characters that were unexpected.  Batman kills.  Superman's relationship with humanity is...complicated.  These characterizations were hated, and when Justice League came around, they were mostly ignored.  Batman doesn't kill.  And Superman is remembered as a guy who was revered by everyone.  They're the characters we love and remember.

Kinda feels like the Last Jedi.  People hated how the Last Jedi treated Luke Skywalker.  So the Rise of Skywalker goes out of his way to say that Luke was wrong to do and say the things he said.  He's the Luke we all loved and remembered.

I'm not comparing the movies any more than that because I don't think there's much more to it than that.  I just think it's kinda funny that BvS and TLJ are two of the most controversial genre movies we've ever seen, and Chris Terrio essentially Jedi Mind Tricked us both times into ignoring the things we didn't like about the previous movies.

- Wrap Up.  All in all, I liked it for what it chose to be.  I just don't really understand why it chose to be that.

Re: Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker [spoilers]

Palpatine is an awkward reversal on RETURN OF THE JEDI and I'd agree his presence is to give the Disney trilogy a definitive conclusion by undoing RETURN OF THE JEDI's ending to repeat it. I think Abrams had intent that Rey would be Palpatine's granddaughter, but with Disney setting a schedule for STAR WARS episodes to be released every two years, he didn't expect to direct anything after THE FORCE AWAKENS. In fact, the two year schedule and the desire to have Abrams direct THE FORCE AWAKENS meant he couldn't act in a Kevin Feige type role for the subsequent films or direct the second one, much in the same way Rian Johnson was asked to direct THE RISE OF SKYWALKER but was too busy with THE LAST JEDI.

In addition, Disney wanting of a summer blockbuster finale to the Disney trilogy conflicts with expanding on Rian Johnson's ideas. Even if THE LAST JEDI ended with claiming that it would be new characters who would defy the First Order, it's John Boyega, Daisy Ridley and Oscar Issac who are on contract to return and the studio was going to make full use of their actors for their final films. Therefore, THE RISE OF SKYWALKER acknowledges that the Force is strong within two former stormtroopers, so it makes a token nod to THE LAST JEDI but doesn't focus on it.

In the future, it might be best if one person creatively oversees the writers and directors whether that person is Abrams, Johnson or someone else.

Personally, I feel that Rian Johnson is such an eccentric visionary that it would be foolish for anyone other than Rian Johnson to continue and elaborate on his approach, so what we have is Abrams making an action movie that includes references to Johnson's material but doesn't make it integral to Abrams' movie. That said, I don't feel THE LAST JEDI is dismissed; at the end of that film, Luke declared that he wouldn't be the last Jedi and that the Resistance would be reborn, so Luke saying, "I was wrong" in RISE is continuing that.

I am okay with THE LAST JEDI being an unusual outlier bookended by two more conventional entries. I think it's cool that we have a very reverential opening in THE FORCE AWAKENS, a wider exploration of settings and themes in THE LAST JEDI and then a return to conventionality in RISE.

I don't disagree with the tennis metaphor, but I don't feel that Johnson and Abrams are on different sides; they just have different tools for expressing similar sentiments ("Rey is nobody from nowhere and has to define herself on her own terms" / "Rey is the granddaughter of Darth Sidious and has to reject that and define herself on her own terms") and it can feel like they're in opposition because their styles are so dissimilar.

Without being in any way denigrating to Abrams, I would say that he makes ice cream whereas Johnson makes crème brûlée. They're both good.

Re: Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker [spoilers]

I think I agree with that.  I think the primary issue is that I don't feel like either of them ever even worked together.  And I don't even necessarily mean they got in a room for days to plan things out.  I don't even feel like there was an email with a list of possible directions to go in that either of them used or referenced.  If I were JJ Abrams and I've just completed the Force Awakens, I would've made a list of directions that I was hoping to go. 

- Rey is a Palpatine
- Palpatine is still alive / is the embodiment of all Sith evil on a distant planet
- Leia is going to sacrifice herself to redeem Kylo who also sacrifices himself to save Rey

Even if its just a photo of rambling notes, I'd write something down so that the next person has a general idea of where things were meant to go.  Either Abrams did this and Johnson threw it in the trash, or Johnson made the theme of his movie about the idea that mystery boxes don't matter.  Either way, there's not really any connective tissue between Episodes VII and VIII.  And if episode IX was directed by someone else entirely, then maybe that would work.  It'd be an anthology of Star Wars movies that have a different visual or tonal style telling one mostly-coherent story.

But even if Abrams and Johnson weren't working against each other, they're not working with each other enough for the story to make the ride feel smooth.  Abrams decided he wanted to take the left path through the exciting forest, and he started down that path.  And Johnson decided he didn't like the forest and wanted to take the windier path that goes alongside the ocean so he could contemplate the vastness of the ocean without all the noises and distractions from the forest.  Neither seemed to notice or care that there was a middle path where you could still see the ocean and still hear the forest that was both safer and faster.

And again I don't think this is all that strange, even in Star Wars.  Star Wars is notorious for its wide and expansive Legends universe full of tons of stories from hundreds of different creative minds.  But if Lucas wanted the Clone Wars not to be touched upon, they weren't.  When the comics wanted to bring in a clone of Vader, Lucas insisted they make it a clone of Palpatine.

I don't think it would've been a stretch for Disney to have the same philosophy.  "Rian, you're the mastermind of Episode VIII, but JJ has some plot points that we would like you to either build on or at least don't directly contradict."  So it's still collaboration even if they're still working 100% independently.

Re: Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker [spoilers]

I read that Colin Trevorrow was reviewing THE LAST JEDI and monitoring where Rian Johnson's film EPISODE IX was going to prepare for filming the next movie. He confirmed that he had asked Johnson to include at least one additional scene -- it's where Rey introduces herself to Poe. Johnson didn't have it in his original script, but Trevorrow asked for it to be filmed. He wanted to be spared the need to have Rey and Poe meet for the first time in EPISODE IX.

However, whatever plans were in place were scrapped when Carrie Fisher died and then Trevorrow left. Instead of a third director taking the third installment in a style that would build upon the second, the third installment looped back to the approach of the opening act. It might seem symmetrical and fitting; it might also seem disjointed and contradictory.

I guess, for me, I don't really expect anything as provocative, subversive and individual as THE LAST JEDI from tentpole blockbusters and it was a pleasant surprise with the second film, but I never expected such iconoclasm to be sustained. It's sort of like on SUPERNATURAL where I enjoy the eccentric comedy episodes now and then, but I don't expect them to be the bulk of the season or the season premiere or the series finale.

I think of STAR WARS as fast food and while it's wonderful to have something as cinematically groundbreaking as STAR WARS (1977) or as high quality as THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK or as clever as THE LAST JEDI, I don't expect it. I generally expect a STAR WARS movie to be at about the level of THE RISE OF SKYWALKER. It's competent and professional. It's a Mighty Angus burger from McDonalds; arguably the best burger to be found in that specific fast food menu using never-frozen meat and well-baked buns, but it's still just fast food.

Re: Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker [spoilers]

I think that's fair.  Stuff like this is fascinating to me, though.  Star Wars is (and has been) a license to print money.  TROS is going to be a financial failure compared to the two previous Disney sequels, but it's still going to be an amazing financial success.  So I wonder how much, if any, the decision makers really care what movie comes out.  The movie could be arthouse, dumb popcorn flick, coherent, or nonsensical, and it's still going to make money.  Different groups of people seemed to hate each of these movies, and they still made ridiculous amounts of money.  So it might not actually matter whether JJ Abrams and Rian Johnson made a cohesive trilogy.

When I look at Marvel, it seems so simple.  Kevin Feige (and I assume a group of others) watches over a series of a couple dozen movies, doing (IMO) a great job of both building and interconnecting a universe while also making that universe feel diverse and unique.  Black Panther and Guardians of the Galaxy shouldn't work together, but while they have very different themes and visuals, they both "feel" Marvel.

TFA, TLJ, and TROS all have the same characters and two feature the same director, and they don't really feel like the same group of movies.  I'd think someone like Kathleen Kennedy would line these scripts and directors up and figure out a way to make everything make sense.  If there isn't a plan for all three movies, are there are at least mile markers we want to hit?  Places for these characters to go?  If Abrams truly threw out everything Trevorrow did, it implies there was never a plan.  On one hand, it means that these movies aren't written by robots like Marvel seems to be.  But on the other hand, I just can't imagine HOW THAT IS POSSIBLE.

But since Marvel seems to be the only one doing it their way and everyone else seems to be doing things their way....I guess maybe Kevin Feige is the crazy one.

Re: Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker [spoilers]

It’s hard to say what the plan was because Colin Trevorrow has declined to elaborate on what his version of EPISODE IX would have been. I find it unhelpful to look at Trevorrow’s filmography: SAFETY NOT GUARANTEED is a sweet little indie romance film with hints of science fiction. JURASSIC WORLD is... uh, I’ve never seen it. I can’t see Trevorrow continuing with Rian Johnson’s approach, however. And I don’t think Abrams threw out Trevorrow’s material. Kennedy said that IX had been planned as Carrie Fisher’s film much as VIII was Mark Hamill’s and VII was Harrison Ford’s. Which means that Trevorrow’s material was discarded because it relied upon Carrie Fisher being alive to perform in it.

I think that the original intent was that THE FORCE AWAKENS would be a safe, reverential entry made by remix artist JJ Abrams followed by an iconoclastic, high cinema entry from Rian Johnson followed by... something. Unfortunately, what we got was a safe, reverential opening act, an iconoclastic, high cinema middle chapter — and then a safe, reverential closing entry that seems like an urgent reversal, but that has more to do with Kennedy electing to hire a safe, reverential director to come in after Trevorrow.

Re: Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker [spoilers]

Jurassic World is a ton of fun.  As someone who has more nostalgia for Jurassic Park than I've ever had for Star Wars, I can safely say that Jurassic World was a love letter to me as a fan.  I think it's a lot like the Force Awakens - it's a retelling of the original story with higher stakes (since the park is open and there are more potential casualties).  I think he might've made a similar movie to The Force Awakens, honestly.  So I assume his Episode IX wouldn't be much different than TFA.

But I don't think there's anything wrong with the Rise of Skywalker in a vacuum.  I think it's perfectly enjoyable on it's own.  I think where this series fails is simply as a cohesive unit.  Episodes VII and IX feel like two ends of the same story since they were made by the same person.  Episode VIII feels like a sidequel or a supplementary comic book adventure because what happens in it adds to the characters but not necessarily the story.

The sequel trilogy, to me, is a delicious gourmet hamburger meal.  Abrams films are two wonderfully toasted buttered buns, and Johnson's films are perfectly fried french fries coated in parmesan and truffle oil.

We're missing the meat.  The connective tissue between Abrams' movies so that the jump into IX isn't so abrupt.  We have a villain in TROS that we don't understand, even though he's a familiar face.  Is Palpatine the original guy we were introduced to in Episode I that survived the destruction of the Death Star?  Or is he, as he puts it, some sort of timeless embodiment of the Sith?  I've heard theories on all of it.  That TROS Palpatine is a clone of the original who was imperfect (or torn apart by the Dark Side energy) so he needs to jump into a new body.  Or that TROS Palpatine is the *true* Palpatine and that the Darth Sidious that was killed in Return of the Jedi was the clone/projection.

Honestly, I don't know, and the movie doesn't really care to answer.  I think maybe they just needed another edit.  Maybe merge the Pasaana and Kijimi scenes so that they can get to Exegol faster.  I don't know.  Even as someone who liked TLJ more than most (and it's my favorite of the sequel trilogy), I wonder if Rian Johnson just didn't do enough to set up Episode IX and Abrams had to cram in Episode VIII and IX into one.  And that's why it was both really long and really rushed.

Re: Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker [spoilers]

I think the only way we're going to be able to get a sense of what the intentions were and how much of a plan, if any, was in place, is to wait. Eventually, Colin Trevorrow's vision of EPISODE IX before Carrie Fisher died will be revealed and then we'll know what the ground beef would have been.

Re: Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker [spoilers]

When Game of Thrones finished, there were a number of videos that came out that showed that the cast sorta didn't like the ending.  They'd be asked a question about how things ended, and they'd either hesitate to come up with a diplomatic answer or they'd give some sort of sarcastic one.  The idea was that they knew the ending was bad and couldn't contain how they felt about it.  The internet did the same thing with questions Mark answered about Luke's portrayal in the Last Jedi, something he's somewhat-openly had issues with.

I've seen in multiple interviews with the younger Star Wars cast (Daisy Ridley, John Boyega, and Oscar Isaac) where they all seem sorta done with Star Wars.  I've seen in multiple interviews that Daisy seemed sorta wooden and checked-out in her performance.  Boyega and Isaac both specifically said they had no interest in any sort of Disney+ supplementary material.

I wonder what to make of that.  I know Harrison Ford was done with Star Wars during the original trilogy.  The fans have all but ruined the experience for someone like Jake Lloyd.  I'm sure it's exhausting to do a Star Wars because you're asked about it all the time, and I'm sure the press junkets made them never want to suffer through something like that ever again.  All three of them have "made it" and I'm sure they don't need Star Wars like they probably did when the Force Awakens was casting.  Daniel Craig essentially said during the press tour for Spectre he'd rather die than do Bond again, and he came back and did another Bond.  So maybe it's nothing.

But with all the chaos at Star Wars, I wonder if there's just something off about the brand at the moment.  Trilogies are announced and cancelled.  Directors are brought on and then fired.  I'm not blaming anyone in particular, but I wonder if the Disney and Star Wars marriage isn't as functional as we all think.  And I wonder if the actors sorta see that.  I think an Oscar Issac-led Poe series would be really cool, and I think there's tons to do with him or Finn.  Especially in light of the success of the Mandalorian and how much Marvel is branching out with TV shows.  And for either actor to outright (and vehemently) dismiss it just came off as really odd to me.

Re: Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker [spoilers]

I'd say a massive problem: Disney decided they wanted a new STAR WARS episode every two years. This led to exhaustion and burnout: the cast were strained severely; Rian Johnson declined to sign on for EPISODE IX when EPISODE VII was demanding all his time and energy; JJ Abrams and Chris Terrio were given two years to write, film, edit and release IX -- and now everyone is worn out.

Daniel Craig was worn out from SPECTRE from working 18 hour days and relentless fitness training and also being at the end of his contract and seeing the light at the end of the tunnel. But he wasn't happy with how SPECTRE turned out, so he consented to try to give his Bond another finale.

The development schedule also seems to have been an issue on SOLO where directors Phil Lord and Chris Miller were slowly taking time to let their cast improvise and leading to massive overtime. This didn't suit the factory production model that Disney had stipulated, leading to the no-fuss hyperefficiency Ron Howard hired to replace them.

With a TV show where actors are doing 20 - 22 episodes a year, rest periods are build into the schedule because TV shows stick to specific shooting locations and sets. Also, it's possible to give Jared and Jensen a week off now and then and let an episode focus on Jodie Mills or Eileen or Rowena. Blockbuster films are a relentless race to the finish with STAR WARS films being made all around the world. On the two year schedule, a period of rest is immediately followed by another driven march to finish.

I think Disney may have tried to squeeze too much out of STAR WARS too soon with three core features and two spinoffs so soon. They probably should have aimed for one movie every three years with JJ Abrams leading the stories and supervising directors to handle filming and performances, and only after that should they have entered the spinoffs and TV shows.

Admittedly, the financial success is mostly there, but there is also some withdrawal as Disney has elected to let the film franchise rest for now and focus on TV.

Re: Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker [spoilers]

Yeah.  I know they're doing Mandalorian season 2 and an Obi-Wan TV show.  I'd forgotten they're also doing a Cassian Andor show for Disney+ starring Diego Luna.

But Rian Johnson is still working on something for Star Wars.  So is, apparently, Kevin Feige.  So there will still be Star Wars movie, but Star Wars fatigue is definitely a thing.

Re: Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker [spoilers]

Okay, Trevorrow's EPISODE IX has been leaked, reviewed by a YouTuber and confirmed as genuine by Trevorrow himself.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ShS32kJclU

Re: Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker [spoilers]

Would Duel of the Fates have been better?  I don't know.  It would've faced difficulties since it would've needed changes after the death of Carrie Fisher.  But I think what would've helped it was the idea that it would've made the sequel trilogy feel like a cohesive story, which is the major downfall of what happened after Rise of Skywalker.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uzujpplt-0M

I watched this video, and I think it does a good job of understanding some of the narrative issues of TROS.  When Snoke died and Rian Johnson set up Kylo Ren as the major villain, it caused a lot of issues that Abrams decided to force his narrative through.  He wanted to redeem Kylo so he needed a villain - he chose Palpatine over creating a new villain.  But at the end of the day, it feels the same way.  I also saw another video that talked about how Daisy Ridley seemed to imply that there was enough evidence in The Force Awakens to deduce Rey's parents.  The YouTuber said that it implied, if anyone, that Luke was her father.  But since they needed to force Palpatine in, Abrams changed her parentage to be Palpatine...another twist that seemingly comes out of nowhere.

Duel of the Fates fixes some of this by simply staying the course that Rian Johnson set.  Kylo Ren is the bad guy.  Luke is spending his time trying to redeem his nephew.  The Resistance is defeated but still fighting.  It feels like it's more naturally a sequel, and it even plays with certain aspects of Abrams story with Rey ending up being a student of both sides of the Force.  It respects both Force Awakens and Last Jedi, while I don't think Rise of Skywalker did much but tolerate what parts of TLJ it had to.

At the end of the day, I think it would've *felt* like a better sequel.  Whether it would've been a better sequel is up for debate.  I imagine it could've been improved on rewrites since Trevorrow was canned well before he had the chance to do so.  And maybe Disney would've pushed for changes after TLJ actually came out.

But the more I think about it, it's simply bizarre how much freedom Rian Johnson got.  Bizarre and impressive.

Re: Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker [spoilers]

Oh dear God. Now I have to watch the video. I was hoping you would summarize it and spare me the trouble. Alright fine.

Re: Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker [spoilers]

I can summarize, but I'll only do it from memory:

- Kylo spends the movie trying to find a way to destroy all the Jedi and Sith forever.  He hangs out in Vader's castle, and Luke spends the movie trying to get him to turn back.  But Ben Solo is gone - Kylo is all that's left.

- The First Order has a stranglehold on the galaxy.  No communication can happen between planets.  Hux controls Coruscant.

- Finn and Rose have a lot more to do.  Finn, Rose, and Poe hijack a star destroyer, and Finn ends up leading a rebellion of former stormtroopers (both giving him something to do and finishing his arc).  He's not force sensitive, but he does lead a group of sensitives to Rey at the end (including Broom Boy).

- Rey is still trying to redeem Kylo and they (along with some other force ghost cameos) are forced to kill him.

Re: Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker [spoilers]

I think I'll have to watch the video and offer my own thoughts, but even before that -- I do think it's very easy for an unmade film to be the epitome of excellence because the imagined product will never exist; it'll never conflict with actual reality.

Re: Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker [spoilers]

The script for DUEL OF THE FATES by Colin Trevorrow has been released. Many questions are answered, many quandaries are settled, but I confess that the only one that interests me is what Slider_Quinn21 thinks. :-)

http://freepdfhosting.com/19e18635e0.pdf

Re: Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker [spoilers]

I haven't read the full script but I read portions.

At the end of the day, I think Trevorrow's script would need a ton of polishing (especially after dealing with Carrie Fisher's death), but I think it does a much better job of 1) following up on The Last Jedi and 2) completing the sequel trilogy.

I think JJ Abrams script was too concerned about hitting emotional notes that he set up with The Force Awakens and felt ownership to resolve the entire 9-movie saga.  I do think that Ben needed to be redeemed in some way, especially after Han (and in some ways, Luke) died in order to try and save him.  If he simply becomes an irredeemable villain then both their deaths are in vain.

That being said, TLJ left two options.  Either Kylo is your villain or you bring in someone else.  And, honestly, I think the movies work a lot better if Kylo is your villain.  I don't think Trevorrow handles it correctly either.  He sets up a situation with Luke and Kylo where Kylo can be saved, and he doesn't go that route either.  I think you could write a scenario where Kylo has gone full bad guy, where Kylo still dies for his crimes, and he's still redeemed in the end.  I think it's more fluid and a better connection between the movies.

As far as uniting the movies, I don't really see the reason to do that.  Yes, I think there are people who legitimately think that the series ends with 9 Skywalker movies, but I don't believe that for a second.  There will be an Episode X.  And beyond.  Of course there will.  So tying Episode IX to Episodes I-VI I think is sentimental for the sake of being sentimental.  Bringing in Palpatine doesn't make sense...so much so that they didn't even try to explain it.

Rey showing up on Tattooine doesn't make any sense.  she has no connection there.  She never knew Beru and Owen.  Her only connection to that place was Luke, and he hated it there.  She has no connection to Anakin (and I'm sure there's reason to believe she doesn't even know who Anakin is).  Luke is the only one named Skywalker she ever met, and I can't say their relationship was that strong.

She knew way more Solos.  She liked more Organas.  Solo makes much more sense for her to name herself after, but she chooses Skywalker because it's the Skywalker saga.  She goes to Tattooine because people know that place and it's significant to Star Wars.  It isn't significant to Rey.

Duel of the Fates isn't great, but it attempts to be the third part in the sequel trilogy.  And since it's an early draft, I think a final draft of that script could've succeeded at that goal.  Rise of Skywalker tries to be so many different things and fails a lot because it can't focus.  So I'd give RoS a C- and DotF an incomplete.  Maybe it would've ended up worse.  Maybe not.  But its bar was lower, meaning success was more likely.

Re: Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker [spoilers]

The Clone Wars

I just started watching the Clone Wars because I know that Clone Wars and Rebels is going to play into season 2 of the Mandalorian.  I've never seen it before, but I've heard good things.  So far, I like it, but I keep coming up with a question.

The Jedi are generals in the war.  They lead troops, and they're referred to as "generals" - we saw this in the movies as well.

....are the Jedi qualified for this?  I'm only on episode 3, but Anakin is drawing up battle plans.  Are advanced battle strategies part of Jedi training?  In addition to the standard things we see younglings do, are they also in classrooms learning about troop movements and flanking procedures?  Did we miss Luke learning about this stuff during his training on Dagobah?

Mace Windu specifically says "we're keepers of the peace, not soldiers" and you'd think that the clone troopers would be much more qualified.  I know there's a leadership structure for the clones, and I would think the clones with the most experience would be leading the war with the Jedi serving more in a "special forces" capacity.  Even if the Republic didn't have other military leaders to lead the clone troopers, I don't think the Jedi should've been put in charge.

Re: Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker [spoilers]

I don’t get it either. And I’ve only ever seen the Clone Wars movie and the first two prequels.

In the original trilogy, the Jedi are regarded as myth that may or may not have ever been real. But the prequels declare that they were a branch of government, installed in political institutions and present in the public eye. In the original trilogy, the Jedi would have at their height been an urban legend at most.

Re: Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker [spoilers]

Well that's the funny thing.  Han Solo talks about how he's been all around the galaxy and hasn't seen anything that would lead him to believe that the Force is real.  But the Jedi were *everywhere* 30 years earlier.  Even if he never saw a Jedi, there would be *tons* of living beings that would've been alive at the height of their power.

I wonder if the prequels should've gone in a different direction.  Maybe the Jedi officially ended in the Old Republic and the Sith/Jedi were fighting a secret war.  Obi-Wan worked in secret, and he finds Anakin.  The two of them fight for a couple decades, until Anakin is seduced by their rival faction.

Re: Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker [spoilers]

The prequels are bizarre in how overt and obvious the Jedi are in a galactic war despite Han in the 1977 film dismissing them as "ancient nonsense and hokey religions." And in making the Jedi so prominent, Lucas makes the Jedi look incompetent with REVENGE OF THE SITH and THE LAST JEDI calls him out on this.

Luke Skywalker wrote:

Now that they're extinct, the Jedi are romanticized, deified. But if you strip away the myth and look at their deeds, the legacy of the Jedi is failure. Hypocrisy, hubris. At the height of their powers, they allowed Darth Sidious to rise, create the Empire, and wipe them out.

STAR WARS declares the Jedi to be warrior monks working in obscurity and mystery, but the prequels present them as an ineffective galactic city hall.

Re: Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker [spoilers]

I'm to season five of Clone Wars.  I always thought of it as a kids show, but it deals with a lot of fairly adult topics.  The show isn't sexual or overly violent (and with clones and droids, the show kinda gets away with the violence that's there) but they deal with just about everything else you'd expect in an adult TV show.  I think it's done a pretty good job of fixing the mistakes of the prequels - they make Anakin and Obi-Wan seem like true friends, and they flesh out much of the time between episodes II and III.

I'll have some more commentary when I finish, but one thing I'm struggling with is the hopelessness of it all.  Every victory for the "Republic" is a victory for the Empire (and to a lesser but still true extent, the First Order).  When a planet is won or converted to be under Republic rule, I understand that they'll soon be under the boot of the Empire.  Big wins for the clones are big wins for future stormtroopers.

When you start looking at it that way, it's less fun. 

Other than that, I'm really enjoying it.  And I'm excited to see the sister series in Rebels when I'm done.

(All this is in preparation for Season 2 of the Mandalorian)

Re: Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker [spoilers]

Clone Wars was a great show, Dave Filoni is a master mind.

Re: Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker [spoilers]

This article is likely a wild conspiracy of some sort, but an interesting idea (which like anything, I can relate to Sliders).  Be warned that the article has a passing reference to Rebels season four which may or may not be spoilers.

https://cosmicbook.news/disney-resettin … -last-jedi

194 (edited by Grizzlor 2020-06-29 22:09:17)

Re: Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker [spoilers]

That article was pure comedy!  They're not going to "erase" the likely final performances of Harrison Ford, Carrie Fisher, Frank Oz, Mark Hamill, Anthony Daniels, etc.  There's another reason that this seems far fetched.  What they're suggesting is the Star Trek treatment, also ironically involving J.J. Abrams.  His movies were intentionally separated from the previous mythos, and now what has come after on CBS All Access to great fanfare.  In the case of Trek, roles have been recast by younger actors again, but they are operating within the old Trek canon.  Patrick Stewart's return is also within that canon, but features a return of many older actors.  However, the format of the Trek resurgence, led by Alex Kurtzman, has worked.  It's on streaming TV, featuring shorter arcs that have become the new standard for genre drama.  While there's many other creatives involved, Alex is sort of the main guy.  It's gotten to the point where nobody really cares to see another Abrams "Kelvin" Trek movie. 

Back to Star Wars, Dave Filoni has become "that guy" now, and team with Favreau, they are probably the future of Star Wars.  Kathleen Kennedy has become a complete disaster for Disney.  So while the article I feel is mostly fiction, it's been rumored that Favreau may well take her place.  Anyway, why is it fiction?  Well, there's no need.  Think about it.  You've told a story involving new characters and old.  The story is finished.  Disney are not going to recast those roles and start again.  Disney are not going to move forward I don't believe with new films involving them.  So why would you need to retcon or reset anything?  You can move forward with new characters and stories, that are not Skywalker/Palpatine centric.  Because like I said, you cannot rewrite that story, because it would be a fan revolt, and again, several of the actors simply won't do it.

Re: Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker [spoilers]

This is one of those absurd theories that presumes studios and creatives obsess over continuity as much as the fans do. That's simply not the case; outside of X-MEN: DAYS OF FUTURE PAST resurrecting dead characters, FOX/Disney/Lucasfilm is not going to fixate on 'repairing' their previous films. As Grizzlor says, Lucasfilm is not going to dismiss the sendoffs for Harrison Ford, Carrie Fisher and Mark Hamill. There is no profit to dismissing FORCE AWAKENS, LAST JEDI and RISE OF SKYWALKER's place in history with Han, Leia and Luke when Harrison Ford is unlikely to do more than a cameo and Carrie Fisher is slightly unavailable for the foreseeable future. For better or worse, the sequel trilogy they made is the one we have. They're not going to replace it. They'll make new projects that may or may not be in theatres.

STAR WARS under Kathleen Kennedy has had its hits and misses, but aside from SOLO, her cinematic releases have made a profit. RISE OF SKYWALKER was the lowest return on investment, but it was still a return. I'm not sure "disaster" describes her term; I'd call it mixed to above average, about the same as most executives who survive in the business. She's not Kevin Feige with Marvel, but she's not Zack Snyder either.

Re: Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker [spoilers]

The Clone Wars was fantastic.  On to Rebels!