Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Slider_Quinn21 wrote:

Does this mean that Sliders Reborn was part of the crisis officially?

Weren't we all officially part of Crisis?

It's strange -- if "Fadeout" was saying that Earth-1 is now an altered timeline where Tommy survived the Undertaking of Season 1 and Moira survived Slade's murder attempt in Season 2 and Quentin survived Season 6 Emiko survived Season 7 -- then why do Laurel-2 and Thea remember the deaths? Wouldn't they remember this supposedly altered timeline's version and be unaware that some people who were once dead are now alive again (as doubles from an alternate Earth where they didn't die)?

Why are Tommy and Moira and Quentin aware that there was an alternate reality where they perished? Because Thea wonders why Oliver resurrected his mother but not his father (I assume it's because Robert Queen was a murderous little creep). Laurel-2 wonders why Oliver didn't revive Laurel-1 (I assume it's because doing so would have obliterated Laurel-2's development and redemption and he didn't want to take that away).

In addition, if Moira and Tommy had been around for Seasons 2 - 7, the storylines would have unfolded at least a little differently. Which is why I prefer to think that what we saw onscreen is what happened -- and now we have the same reality we had before but with extras and additions that only arrived after CRISIS: an additional Beth in BATWOMAN; an additional Braniac 5s in SUPERGIRL, and an additional Moira / Tommy / Emiko whose doubles on this Earth are dead.

But, not wanting to go all Informant on you: let me be clear that you are in line with the fan consensus that history has been altered.

Clearly, the Arrowverse desperately needed Slider_Quinn21 in the writer's room for this one...

**

The third installment of SLIDERS REBORN ended with several hundred parallel versions of San Francisco now merged into a single reality within Earth Prime and ended with the sliders standing in downtown San Francisco surrounded by a Blockbuster VHS rental next to a smartwatch shop, Hillary Clinton running for mayor after a one-term presidency, anti-depressant cola ads next to posters warning of illegal sugar sales and other contradictory details. The final installment is set 18 months later where San Francisco is now a joyful melting pot of parallel cultures. Princess Diana is doing book signings. There's a Disneyland in Alcatraz's place. The sliders are keeping the city running and have a company, Sliders Incorporated, which sells 3D printed mini-hamburgers, a popular snack sensation.

Transmodiar had officially checked out of SLIDERS REBORN long before this, but unofficially, he was still involved and he expressed great alarm and concern at this madness, saying this would be very difficult to portray and explore sensibly.

Nigel Mitchell declared that he couldn't wrap his head around this merged San Francisco being a cheery wonderland of limitless possibility, told me that I was insane (in a very polite and sweet Nigel way) and checked out both officially AND unofficially. Slider_Quinn21 stepped up, but because of how my previous writer-editor relationships had been rocky, I changed my tactics. Rather than send him outlines to balk at, I sent Slider_Quinn21 about 5 - 10 script pages per day to read and comment upon.

Slider_Quinn21 remarked that he wondered why the outside world hadn't quarantined San Francisco or what happened when people from different Earths left San Francisco (did they return to their own world or would they be in Earth Prime?). He wondered how the outside world reacted to celebrities they knew to be dead wandering the streets alive.

I proceeded to add a running joke where any time anyone asks how San Francisco can co-exist with the rest of the world(s), the response is that San Francisco has always been the strangest place on Earth and this is nothing new.

There are throwaway lines about Sliders Inc. working with municipal governments to contain and manage the situation. There's a couple pages where Quinn explains that the merged San Francisco is like a bus terminal between parallel worlds with people returning to their own Earth when they leave and with checkpoints set up to make sure that buses and cars don't lose passengers and drivers. Thinking about it, Slider_Quinn21 WROTE those script pages with the bus terminal comparison and I forgot to credit him. Must fix it for the relaunch.

Anyway, Slider_Quinn21, because he had the script pages, understood the authorial intent of a merged San Francisco. He saw that every person in the merged San Francisco was now a slider; that the merged San Francisco of infinite wonder and hope represented SLIDERS as a TV show; and that the story was declaring that each person is a story and every story is a SLIDERS story. And because he was onboard with that, he was willing to play along with the merged San Francisco concept and ask questions and suggest answers to make it more plausible.

The Arrowverse, unfortunately, made the foolish and unwise choice to tell a story with a merged timeline and then not consult Slider_Quinn21 on how to present it or explain it and now we seem to be given slightly different versions and perceiving slightly different results of the merged Earth-1. They will rue the day.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Everyone remembers the other timeline because of J'onn.  I assume that Tommy knows just because he was told by the people that J'onn let in on.

And, yeah, that's why I was kinda weirded out by the whole thing.  There's an entirely new version where Tommy lived all eight seasons and things would've definitely been at least a little different.  I imagine things are still supposed to be fairly similar to how they went.  Laurel still showed up from Earth 2 and still had her redemption arc.  And while Emiko survived, I'm assuming Darhk and Diaz still died.

I'd think a decent amount of Arrow would still be pretty much left intact.  Tommy would be alive, but he wouldn't have participated in any adventures.  Oliver still needed his team so things couldn't have gone too far off the rails.  But it's the major moments that Oliver would've gone in and tweaked to make sure he made the right decision at the right time.  It's an Oliver thing to do, but as we're seeing, it's a bigger deal that they sorta glossed over.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

My question would be: if only beneficiaries of J'onn's telepathy remember the other timeline -- then why didn't everyone remember Kate having rescued Beth-2 from the car? Why weren't the DEO staff happily familiar with all the Brainiac 5s as having always been part of the team with some recollection of them having time travelled in?

But then again, I do note that everyone remembers Lex Luthor having been a paragon of virtue except for the ones whose memories J'onn restored.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

A funny thing would be if they did a story highlighting how J’onn inadvertently created a memory “virus” that’s spreading through person to person contact because he altered so many people.  Slowly the world starts to lose it’s mind, and the only cure is to reset everybody to their post-Crisis life with no memories of before.

It would be an interesting way to point out all the differences to us, and then wipe it all away so we don’t re-visit the issue forever.  It’s kind of what happened in the comics as Crisis became this vague memory of something that happened but people really weren’t sure what.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I like TF's theory of a memory virus (but don't we always like TF's theories?). However, a few years ago, there was an episode of DOCTOR WHO where the Doctor shrieks at a woman to stop sitting on a galaxy destroying weapons cube as it's a galaxy destroying weapons cube and not a chair. The woman replies, "Why can't it be both?"

And fewer years ago, there was an episode where the Doctor's companion, Clara, asks him to take her to see Robin Hood. The Doctor says that Robin Hood is a historical fiction, not a historical figure, but he transports the TARDIS to an approximate year and location but tells her she'll be disappointed. They step out to find Robin Hood in Lincoln green emerging from Sherwood Forest. At the end of the episode, Robin asks the Doctor if it's true that in the future, history will remember Robin as a legend instead of a real person. The Doctor confirms this and says he's still suspicious; Robin Hood is a fictional character. Robin smiles and tells the Doctor, "I'm as real as you are."

Memory virus. Altered timeline. Unaltered timeline with doubles. Why be picky? Let's say it's all of the above.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

ireactions wrote:

My question would be: if only beneficiaries of J'onn's telepathy remember the other timeline -- then why didn't everyone remember Kate having rescued Beth-2 from the car? Why weren't the DEO staff happily familiar with all the Brainiac 5s as having always been part of the team with some recollection of them having time travelled in?

I think they're two different things.  I think the Brainiacs and Beth-2 are refugees from Earths that no longer exist (or they're also gifts from Oliver-Spectre to solve future problems).  I think resurrected Lance/Tommy/Emiko/etc are original members of Earth Prime who never died.  So Earth-1 Tommy is dead, but Earth Prime Tommy never died.  The only way Earth-1 Tommy exists is via J'onn's memory transfer.  Beth-1 and Beth-Prime are identical, but Beth-2 came from an Earth that was erased - no one remembers her because they remember Beth-Prime (as Beth-1 was destroyed).

Technically, Barry is Barry-Prime with the memories of Barry-1.  Same with Kara and everyone else.

It's funny that TF mentions the memory virus.  Because for Team Arrow or Team Supergirl, the memory stuff wouldn't matter.  If Chris Pine played Captain America instead of Chris Evans, they could usually write most of that stuff off when they're talking to a random character.  "Evans.  Oh I meant Pine" they'd say.

But what if you're someone like Tommy, who almost never interacts with people who remember the Earth-1 timeline.  Or even someone like William.  How crazy would it be if you had memories of entirely different world that literally no one else remembers.  You could potentially be getting things wrong all the time, and people would just think you were crazy.

(I don't think Tommy got a full memory restoration but I'm just thinking of people on the edge of this universe who wouldn't interact with superheroes 99% of the time like Kara or Barry).

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Hmm. Now I'm uncertain -- because SUPERGIRL's history was definitely altered. The fourth season with Lex Luthor fomenting anti-alien aggression and being exposed and killed now never happened; the post-CRISIS episodes make it clear that as far as the populace is concerned, Lex has always been heroic and on the side of aliens as the head of a benign DEO which employs Supergirl. So I guess that's a point in favour of ARROW's continuity having been altered so that Tommy, Moira, Quentin and Emiko never died.

**

Probably going off topic -- back in 1993, Spider-Man's best friend, Harry Osborn, went insane, became the Green Goblin, tried to kill Peter Parker, had a change of heart, overdosed on the Goblin serum and died in front of Peter (but apologized for his actions and reaffirmed their friendship). However, Peter's next encounter with Harry's legacy was when a post-death plan of Harry's activated where he tricked Peter into thinking Richard and Mary Parker, his parents, had faked their deaths and returned now to be with their son. The parents turned out to be robots programmed by Harry and a pre-recorded video had an insane Harry crowing, "Gotcha," triggering a mental breakdown in Peter that lasted years.

In 2008, Harry Osborn is shown alive and well, saying he's been absent in Europe detoxing from a drug addiction. Harry and Peter have resumed their friendship between issues. A short story in the SPIDER-MAN FAMILY anthology, however, shows Peter finding Harry on his doorstep, alive and well and claiming to have no memory of their last meeting, that his father spirited him away to detox and he is now sober but confused and in need of his friend. Peter slams the door in Harry's face, haunted by the memory of Harry in the Goblin mask sneering, "Gotcha," but Harry persists in reaching out to Peter and Peter realizes he doesn't see the Green Goblin in Harry any more, only his friend.

**

The creator-owned ASTRO CITY by Kurt Busiek has a one-issue story where a man is haunted by dreams of a woman he is hopelessly in love with but never met in real life. A ghostly figure visits the man and explains to him that in one of those reality warping crossover CRISIS situations, his wife was erased from existence. The ghost offers to remove the memories, but the man chooses to retain them and find peace in knowing that he was loved.

**

An issue of HULK by Peter David has the Howling Commandos informed that Nick Fury has died. After a stunned silence, they respond with laughter, joking that everyone at the table has been reported dead at one point or another only to turn up alive and they imagine Nick will be back within the customary six to 18 months (and he was).

**

One of my favourite Marvel characters, Echo (a deaf woman who dated Matt Murdock and is a ninja warrior), was killed off in the 2011 MOON KNIGHT series. Echo reappears in the 2016 DAREDEVIL ANNUAL #1 (v4), running into Daredevil who didn't seem surprised that she was alive. It gave me the impression that they'd met earlier after her resurrection -- or that people come back to life so often in a superhero universe that Daredevil just shrugged it off -- or that the writer had forgotten that Echo had died five years ago.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

So I'm watching Legends of Tomorrow and the villain comes out of the shadows.  Mick shoots him with his fire gun, and the villain repels the fire and then shoots it back to him.  Mick is burned up on the ground.  Sara indicates that he's dead.  She's upset because her friend is dead and says as much to the villain.

Later in the episode, someone says "where's Mick?" but it's actually a joke because Mick is making out with an old flame (PUN INTENDED).

....wait, what?  I never thought for a second that Mick was dead because they played it off very cavalierly.  And I know that Legends has a limited scope of reality, but was Mick saved because they stopped the mom in the past?  So the section in the future never happened?  I read a couple of recaps after I was done, and the ones that referenced Mick dying never referenced his resurrection.

I had familial distractions around that time in the episode so maybe I just missed the explanation.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Oh and I also noticed post-Crisis, both Legends and Flash have fancy new intro sequences.  I don't love either of them, but I did notice them.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

This is how Flash season one should have ended.  Barry makes Eddie realize the truth about himself, and Eobard blinks out of existence.

https://nypost.com/2020/02/14/the-flash … ut-as-gay/

Joking aside, I’m honestly shocked they didn’t do it given the themes these producers constantly promote.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Mick (and his high school girlfriend) both died and both were indeed resurrected when history was altered. I am absolutely sure about this, as certain as I was that ARROW's continuity remains intact and all the resurrected characters are in fact doubles from alternate timelines where they survived their Earth Prime deaths. (Which is to say I'm a bit unsteady on it).

I like the title sequences a lot for FLASH and LEGENDS, but I also don't feel they really matter -- they have no bearing on the story, really. I'm relieved that LEGENDS has a new sequence because the original was, for me, entirely too reminiscent of the AVENGERS titles.

**

Of all the shows to address the post-CRISIS fallout, FLASH has been the most fun with Cisco aghast that he doesn't remember ever owning a Superman T-shirt and very worried that all the villains Team Flash has stopped could be back in new and disturbing forms. It's a very enjoyable, pleasant show -- and wasn't it weird how Joe's office was so full of what looked like multiple coffee brewers? Joe seemed to have two drip machines and a massive grinder which makes me wonder if, at a loss of set dressing, the crew grabbed some unused items from the Jitters set and put them behind Joe's desk.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Yeah I thought about that.  It makes sense for the girlfriend, but I figured the Legends were out of time so their presence doesn't matter.  I guess it's erased because, since the mom was captured in the past, there's no reason for the Legends to go to the future?

I don't know.  Legends doesn't owe me an explanation - they've earned their ridiculousness.

And yeah the title sequences don't matter.  I just found it odd that they decided to do it post-crisis instead of the beginning of the season. I'm assuming Supergirl and Batwoman have them too now, but I haven't watched their new ones yet.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I actually don't remember SUPERGIRL and BATWOMAN having new sequences, or the changes were minor in the way SUPERNATURAL alters the foreground elements of its titles each year but the composition and direction remains basically the same.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Spoilers for BATWOMAN






































Seeing Beth Kane die and Alice live was so upsetting to me; a life-defining trauma akin to the death of Professor Arturo. I haven't seen SUPERGIRL yet and it's going to be WEIRD to go from that to something so lightweight.

... the title sequence did not look any different to me.

*sigh* I'm glad Rachel Skarsten is doing so well. I met her once, but I was too shy to say anything at the time; I was in college and she was working at an Abercrombie and Fitch and I thought I needed jeans but wasted her time as she helped me locate my size and I concluded that denim is not for me. It would be another decade before I realized that I do best with dress pants and not natural fibers but synthetic blends because those hold creases and resist stains better and I fled the store without thanking her and only years later did Transmodiar cure me of my anxiety and I'm getting off track. For awhile, Skarsten was living out of her car until she booked a job on LOST GIRL. She appeared in the Season 2 premiere of WYNONNA EARP and was introduced as a new addition to the team only to be killed off within the same episode. I was so happy to see her on BATWOMAN and so pleased to see her showing her range as both Beth and Alice and I miss Beth but I understand that the show didn't really need an astrophysicist to join the cast.

Jesus, I can’t watch SUPERGIRL right now and watch Kara goofing around singing karaoke. Beth just died. :-(