Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Slider_Quinn21 wrote:

Does this mean that Sliders Reborn was part of the crisis officially?

Weren't we all officially part of Crisis?

It's strange -- if "Fadeout" was saying that Earth-1 is now an altered timeline where Tommy survived the Undertaking of Season 1 and Moira survived Slade's murder attempt in Season 2 and Quentin survived Season 6 Emiko survived Season 7 -- then why do Laurel-2 and Thea remember the deaths? Wouldn't they remember this supposedly altered timeline's version and be unaware that some people who were once dead are now alive again (as doubles from an alternate Earth where they didn't die)?

Why are Tommy and Moira and Quentin aware that there was an alternate reality where they perished? Because Thea wonders why Oliver resurrected his mother but not his father (I assume it's because Robert Queen was a murderous little creep). Laurel-2 wonders why Oliver didn't revive Laurel-1 (I assume it's because doing so would have obliterated Laurel-2's development and redemption and he didn't want to take that away).

In addition, if Moira and Tommy had been around for Seasons 2 - 7, the storylines would have unfolded at least a little differently. Which is why I prefer to think that what we saw onscreen is what happened -- and now we have the same reality we had before but with extras and additions that only arrived after CRISIS: an additional Beth in BATWOMAN; an additional Braniac 5s in SUPERGIRL, and an additional Moira / Tommy / Emiko whose doubles on this Earth are dead.

But, not wanting to go all Informant on you: let me be clear that you are in line with the fan consensus that history has been altered.

Clearly, the Arrowverse desperately needed Slider_Quinn21 in the writer's room for this one...


The third installment of SLIDERS REBORN ended with several hundred parallel versions of San Francisco now merged into a single reality within Earth Prime and ended with the sliders standing in downtown San Francisco surrounded by a Blockbuster VHS rental next to a smartwatch shop, Hillary Clinton running for mayor after a one-term presidency, anti-depressant cola ads next to posters warning of illegal sugar sales and other contradictory details. The final installment is set 18 months later where San Francisco is now a joyful melting pot of parallel cultures. Princess Diana is doing book signings. There's a Disneyland in Alcatraz's place. The sliders are keeping the city running and have a company, Sliders Incorporated, which sells 3D printed mini-hamburgers, a popular snack sensation.

Transmodiar had officially checked out of SLIDERS REBORN long before this, but unofficially, he was still involved and he expressed great alarm and concern at this madness, saying this would be very difficult to portray and explore sensibly.

Nigel Mitchell declared that he couldn't wrap his head around this merged San Francisco being a cheery wonderland of limitless possibility, told me that I was insane (in a very polite and sweet Nigel way) and checked out both officially AND unofficially. Slider_Quinn21 stepped up, but because of how my previous writer-editor relationships had been rocky, I changed my tactics. Rather than send him outlines to balk at, I sent Slider_Quinn21 about 5 - 10 script pages per day to read and comment upon.

Slider_Quinn21 remarked that he wondered why the outside world hadn't quarantined San Francisco or what happened when people from different Earths left San Francisco (did they return to their own world or would they be in Earth Prime?). He wondered how the outside world reacted to celebrities they knew to be dead wandering the streets alive.

I proceeded to add a running joke where any time anyone asks how San Francisco can co-exist with the rest of the world(s), the response is that San Francisco has always been the strangest place on Earth and this is nothing new.

There are throwaway lines about Sliders Inc. working with municipal governments to contain and manage the situation. There's a couple pages where Quinn explains that the merged San Francisco is like a bus terminal between parallel worlds with people returning to their own Earth when they leave and with checkpoints set up to make sure that buses and cars don't lose passengers and drivers. Thinking about it, Slider_Quinn21 WROTE those script pages with the bus terminal comparison and I forgot to credit him. Must fix it for the relaunch.

Anyway, Slider_Quinn21, because he had the script pages, understood the authorial intent of a merged San Francisco. He saw that every person in the merged San Francisco was now a slider; that the merged San Francisco of infinite wonder and hope represented SLIDERS as a TV show; and that the story was declaring that each person is a story and every story is a SLIDERS story. And because he was onboard with that, he was willing to play along with the merged San Francisco concept and ask questions and suggest answers to make it more plausible.

The Arrowverse, unfortunately, made the foolish and unwise choice to tell a story with a merged timeline and then not consult Slider_Quinn21 on how to present it or explain it and now we seem to be given slightly different versions and perceiving slightly different results of the merged Earth-1. They will rue the day.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Everyone remembers the other timeline because of J'onn.  I assume that Tommy knows just because he was told by the people that J'onn let in on.

And, yeah, that's why I was kinda weirded out by the whole thing.  There's an entirely new version where Tommy lived all eight seasons and things would've definitely been at least a little different.  I imagine things are still supposed to be fairly similar to how they went.  Laurel still showed up from Earth 2 and still had her redemption arc.  And while Emiko survived, I'm assuming Darhk and Diaz still died.

I'd think a decent amount of Arrow would still be pretty much left intact.  Tommy would be alive, but he wouldn't have participated in any adventures.  Oliver still needed his team so things couldn't have gone too far off the rails.  But it's the major moments that Oliver would've gone in and tweaked to make sure he made the right decision at the right time.  It's an Oliver thing to do, but as we're seeing, it's a bigger deal that they sorta glossed over.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

My question would be: if only beneficiaries of J'onn's telepathy remember the other timeline -- then why didn't everyone remember Kate having rescued Beth-2 from the car? Why weren't the DEO staff happily familiar with all the Brainiac 5s as having always been part of the team with some recollection of them having time travelled in?

But then again, I do note that everyone remembers Lex Luthor having been a paragon of virtue except for the ones whose memories J'onn restored.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

A funny thing would be if they did a story highlighting how J’onn inadvertently created a memory “virus” that’s spreading through person to person contact because he altered so many people.  Slowly the world starts to lose it’s mind, and the only cure is to reset everybody to their post-Crisis life with no memories of before.

It would be an interesting way to point out all the differences to us, and then wipe it all away so we don’t re-visit the issue forever.  It’s kind of what happened in the comics as Crisis became this vague memory of something that happened but people really weren’t sure what.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I like TF's theory of a memory virus (but don't we always like TF's theories?). However, a few years ago, there was an episode of DOCTOR WHO where the Doctor shrieks at a woman to stop sitting on a galaxy destroying weapons cube as it's a galaxy destroying weapons cube and not a chair. The woman replies, "Why can't it be both?"

And fewer years ago, there was an episode where the Doctor's companion, Clara, asks him to take her to see Robin Hood. The Doctor says that Robin Hood is a historical fiction, not a historical figure, but he transports the TARDIS to an approximate year and location but tells her she'll be disappointed. They step out to find Robin Hood in Lincoln green emerging from Sherwood Forest. At the end of the episode, Robin asks the Doctor if it's true that in the future, history will remember Robin as a legend instead of a real person. The Doctor confirms this and says he's still suspicious; Robin Hood is a fictional character. Robin smiles and tells the Doctor, "I'm as real as you are."

Memory virus. Altered timeline. Unaltered timeline with doubles. Why be picky? Let's say it's all of the above.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

ireactions wrote:

My question would be: if only beneficiaries of J'onn's telepathy remember the other timeline -- then why didn't everyone remember Kate having rescued Beth-2 from the car? Why weren't the DEO staff happily familiar with all the Brainiac 5s as having always been part of the team with some recollection of them having time travelled in?

I think they're two different things.  I think the Brainiacs and Beth-2 are refugees from Earths that no longer exist (or they're also gifts from Oliver-Spectre to solve future problems).  I think resurrected Lance/Tommy/Emiko/etc are original members of Earth Prime who never died.  So Earth-1 Tommy is dead, but Earth Prime Tommy never died.  The only way Earth-1 Tommy exists is via J'onn's memory transfer.  Beth-1 and Beth-Prime are identical, but Beth-2 came from an Earth that was erased - no one remembers her because they remember Beth-Prime (as Beth-1 was destroyed).

Technically, Barry is Barry-Prime with the memories of Barry-1.  Same with Kara and everyone else.

It's funny that TF mentions the memory virus.  Because for Team Arrow or Team Supergirl, the memory stuff wouldn't matter.  If Chris Pine played Captain America instead of Chris Evans, they could usually write most of that stuff off when they're talking to a random character.  "Evans.  Oh I meant Pine" they'd say.

But what if you're someone like Tommy, who almost never interacts with people who remember the Earth-1 timeline.  Or even someone like William.  How crazy would it be if you had memories of entirely different world that literally no one else remembers.  You could potentially be getting things wrong all the time, and people would just think you were crazy.

(I don't think Tommy got a full memory restoration but I'm just thinking of people on the edge of this universe who wouldn't interact with superheroes 99% of the time like Kara or Barry).

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Hmm. Now I'm uncertain -- because SUPERGIRL's history was definitely altered. The fourth season with Lex Luthor fomenting anti-alien aggression and being exposed and killed now never happened; the post-CRISIS episodes make it clear that as far as the populace is concerned, Lex has always been heroic and on the side of aliens as the head of a benign DEO which employs Supergirl. So I guess that's a point in favour of ARROW's continuity having been altered so that Tommy, Moira, Quentin and Emiko never died.


Probably going off topic -- back in 1993, Spider-Man's best friend, Harry Osborn, went insane, became the Green Goblin, tried to kill Peter Parker, had a change of heart, overdosed on the Goblin serum and died in front of Peter (but apologized for his actions and reaffirmed their friendship). However, Peter's next encounter with Harry's legacy was when a post-death plan of Harry's activated where he tricked Peter into thinking Richard and Mary Parker, his parents, had faked their deaths and returned now to be with their son. The parents turned out to be robots programmed by Harry and a pre-recorded video had an insane Harry crowing, "Gotcha," triggering a mental breakdown in Peter that lasted years.

In 2008, Harry Osborn is shown alive and well, saying he's been absent in Europe detoxing from a drug addiction. Harry and Peter have resumed their friendship between issues. A short story in the SPIDER-MAN FAMILY anthology, however, shows Peter finding Harry on his doorstep, alive and well and claiming to have no memory of their last meeting, that his father spirited him away to detox and he is now sober but confused and in need of his friend. Peter slams the door in Harry's face, haunted by the memory of Harry in the Goblin mask sneering, "Gotcha," but Harry persists in reaching out to Peter and Peter realizes he doesn't see the Green Goblin in Harry any more, only his friend.


The creator-owned ASTRO CITY by Kurt Busiek has a one-issue story where a man is haunted by dreams of a woman he is hopelessly in love with but never met in real life. A ghostly figure visits the man and explains to him that in one of those reality warping crossover CRISIS situations, his wife was erased from existence. The ghost offers to remove the memories, but the man chooses to retain them and find peace in knowing that he was loved.


An issue of HULK by Peter David has the Howling Commandos informed that Nick Fury has died. After a stunned silence, they respond with laughter, joking that everyone at the table has been reported dead at one point or another only to turn up alive and they imagine Nick will be back within the customary six to 18 months (and he was).


One of my favourite Marvel characters, Echo (a deaf woman who dated Matt Murdock and is a ninja warrior), was killed off in the 2011 MOON KNIGHT series. Echo reappears in the 2016 DAREDEVIL ANNUAL #1 (v4), running into Daredevil who didn't seem surprised that she was alive. It gave me the impression that they'd met earlier after her resurrection -- or that people come back to life so often in a superhero universe that Daredevil just shrugged it off -- or that the writer had forgotten that Echo had died five years ago.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

So I'm watching Legends of Tomorrow and the villain comes out of the shadows.  Mick shoots him with his fire gun, and the villain repels the fire and then shoots it back to him.  Mick is burned up on the ground.  Sara indicates that he's dead.  She's upset because her friend is dead and says as much to the villain.

Later in the episode, someone says "where's Mick?" but it's actually a joke because Mick is making out with an old flame (PUN INTENDED).

....wait, what?  I never thought for a second that Mick was dead because they played it off very cavalierly.  And I know that Legends has a limited scope of reality, but was Mick saved because they stopped the mom in the past?  So the section in the future never happened?  I read a couple of recaps after I was done, and the ones that referenced Mick dying never referenced his resurrection.

I had familial distractions around that time in the episode so maybe I just missed the explanation.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Oh and I also noticed post-Crisis, both Legends and Flash have fancy new intro sequences.  I don't love either of them, but I did notice them.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

This is how Flash season one should have ended.  Barry makes Eddie realize the truth about himself, and Eobard blinks out of existence. … ut-as-gay/

Joking aside, I’m honestly shocked they didn’t do it given the themes these producers constantly promote.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Mick (and his high school girlfriend) both died and both were indeed resurrected when history was altered. I am absolutely sure about this, as certain as I was that ARROW's continuity remains intact and all the resurrected characters are in fact doubles from alternate timelines where they survived their Earth Prime deaths. (Which is to say I'm a bit unsteady on it).

I like the title sequences a lot for FLASH and LEGENDS, but I also don't feel they really matter -- they have no bearing on the story, really. I'm relieved that LEGENDS has a new sequence because the original was, for me, entirely too reminiscent of the AVENGERS titles.


Of all the shows to address the post-CRISIS fallout, FLASH has been the most fun with Cisco aghast that he doesn't remember ever owning a Superman T-shirt and very worried that all the villains Team Flash has stopped could be back in new and disturbing forms. It's a very enjoyable, pleasant show -- and wasn't it weird how Joe's office was so full of what looked like multiple coffee brewers? Joe seemed to have two drip machines and a massive grinder which makes me wonder if, at a loss of set dressing, the crew grabbed some unused items from the Jitters set and put them behind Joe's desk.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Yeah I thought about that.  It makes sense for the girlfriend, but I figured the Legends were out of time so their presence doesn't matter.  I guess it's erased because, since the mom was captured in the past, there's no reason for the Legends to go to the future?

I don't know.  Legends doesn't owe me an explanation - they've earned their ridiculousness.

And yeah the title sequences don't matter.  I just found it odd that they decided to do it post-crisis instead of the beginning of the season. I'm assuming Supergirl and Batwoman have them too now, but I haven't watched their new ones yet.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I actually don't remember SUPERGIRL and BATWOMAN having new sequences, or the changes were minor in the way SUPERNATURAL alters the foreground elements of its titles each year but the composition and direction remains basically the same.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Spoilers for BATWOMAN

Seeing Beth Kane die and Alice live was so upsetting to me; a life-defining trauma akin to the death of Professor Arturo. I haven't seen SUPERGIRL yet and it's going to be WEIRD to go from that to something so lightweight.

... the title sequence did not look any different to me.

*sigh* I'm glad Rachel Skarsten is doing so well. I met her once, but I was too shy to say anything at the time; I was in college and she was working at an Abercrombie and Fitch and I thought I needed jeans but wasted her time as she helped me locate my size and I concluded that denim is not for me. It would be another decade before I realized that I do best with dress pants and not natural fibers but synthetic blends because those hold creases and resist stains better and I fled the store without thanking her and only years later did Transmodiar cure me of my anxiety and I'm getting off track. For awhile, Skarsten was living out of her car until she booked a job on LOST GIRL. She appeared in the Season 2 premiere of WYNONNA EARP and was introduced as a new addition to the team only to be killed off within the same episode. I was so happy to see her on BATWOMAN and so pleased to see her showing her range as both Beth and Alice and I miss Beth but I understand that the show didn't really need an astrophysicist to join the cast.

Jesus, I can’t watch SUPERGIRL right now and watch Kara goofing around singing karaoke. Beth just died. :-(

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Wait....did Batwoman break the Arrowverse?

I understand the point of it all.  Why Beth survived the Crisis and showed up.  And why they couldn't have Beth and Alice on the show.  I get it.  But are we now definitively saying that two people can't exist on Earth Prime at the same time without dying?  And that the time has already elapsed on which people would die if that were the case?

So if the Brainiacs that survived Crisis hadn't sacrificed themselves, all of them would've died?  Both the bar owners on Supergirl are dead now (or one is dead and the other lived, I guess)?  If they're planning on saving Harry on Flash, as has maybe been referenced, are we saying both he and Nash are dead now?

If they were going to just have Mouse's dad kill one of them....why not write the same thing without the multiversal twist?  Because it doesn't really make sense.  Barry went to Earth-2 (with another Barry) and was fine.  There's a whole multiversal bounty hunter system where people jump from Earth to Earth.  They had a Superman jumping from Earth to Earth trying to collect other Supermen.  If Brandon Routh had stayed during the Crisis for longer, would he and Tyler Hoechlin Superman have both died?

And they can say all they want that the  Multiverse doesn't exist but it does.  The rules pre- and post-Crisis shouldn't be different.  And by saying "there can only be one" - that's a huge rule that I'm not sure the other shows can (or are going to want to) write around.

And Luke was right.  They were absolutely insane not to call Flash or Supergirl or *someone*  to help with it.  I know every week can't be a crossover, but no one has crossed over to Batwoman.  Having Brainiac show up would've been easy and effective.  Or Cisco (he's already left Central City so he could be in Gotham anyway). 

Then Luke was dumb.  They could've kept Beth in the Batcave for a year and no one could've tracked them.  You knew exactly when the timer was going to go off.  Wait until that is over.  Then deal with the Crows.

I'm sorry.  Parts were emotional and well written.  But I think they also made critically dumb mistakes that kill this episode for me.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Well, Kate says that the Crows will inevitably locate the Batcave; that they will inevitably locate the access point as they tear apart the building and go through every bookshelf.

That said, the Crows onscreen have been grossly incompetent, allowing Alice to escape just by trouncing two guards, so if Slider_Quinn21 didn't find it plausible that the Crows would get into the cave, then I concede to him. I am just so upset right now over Beth's death that I couldn't bring myself to finish watching THE MARVELOUS MRS. MAISEL despite having stolen my niece's Amazon Prime password to watch it. I drove past that Abercrombie and Fitch this morning and wept. And, just like with Arturo's death, it looks like we're following up on it next week by fighting horror monsters. Vampires, apparently.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Maybe they'll address it later, but they couldn't wait a few more minutes until they were sure Alice was dead and everyone was safe?  I realize there's a good chance that Beth still could've been killed by Mouse's dad....but that wouldn't have been on Luke and Kate.  This bungle was.

And I'm much more upset about possibly having them wreck doubles than anything else.  Just because it was very unnecessary, especially on a show that was the least affected by Crisis.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Maybe it has to do with the method used to bring the double over?  On Supergirl, I think they mentioned that a wormhole opened bringing the various doubles to the bar.  On Black Lightning, his daughter was phasing in and out of other realities more directly connected to her doubles (even sharing the same head space).  On Flash, Nash is his own special circumstance thanks to the direct influence of the Anti-Monitor.

Did they say how Beth came over?  I haven’t really been watching Batwoman.  Seems to me she’s more of the Black Lightning method.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Hmmm, it's possible that different reasons would create different consequences.  Beth didn't even know she was on a different Earth so I figured it was identical to how the people in the bar go there on Supergirl.  I guess we'll see.

I liked the Winn two-parter on Supergirl.  I'd sorta forgotten about him (even to the point where I didn't recognize him a couple of episodes ago when this plot point was teased).  I remember liking him, but I also thought the transition from Winn to Brainy was seamless enough that it didn't really matter.  But I think the actor and the character were actually a ton of fun.  I know he left on his own and doesn't seem terribly interested in doing these TV shows anymore, but I think he'd be a great addition to Legends.  Or heck, if they wanted to do a Legion show that he'd co-star on, I'd be interested in that as well.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Well, Cisco says that all the previous rules of the multiverse have been replaced with new ones that he doesn't know, so doubles occupying the same world is open to different results. ARROW has (according to Slider_Quinn21) featured doubles who were 'created' by altering the past so that where they originally died, they now survived to the present in the new timeline. The Brainiac 5 doubles of SUPERGIRL were (presumably) from alternate/potential futures who have time travelled back to the present which is now the merged Earth Prime. And Beth was, like Supergirl, from a parallel Earth that has folded into Earth 1 except where Earth 1 didn't have a Supergirl, Earth 1 did have a Beth in the identity of Alice.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Probably most relevant here given the comics creators and modern ideas that have been involved in these shows, but Co-Publisher Dan Didio was just fired by DC Comics.  Didio has been the guiding voice behind DC’s direction over the past 10 to 15 years (including what he’ll most be remembered for - the New 52, which rebooted all of DC Comics).

Didio was about to reboot all of DC Comics again with his Generation Five initiative (aging up Clark Kent, Bruce Wayne, etc into their 80’s with their children and other characters taking over the monthly titles).  The problem?  Didio was reportedly doing this with big ideas but without a real plan; he was just going to improvise it as it went along and let his employees carry the burden (much as he did with many during New 52).   But this time, his editors started quitting en masse, and that got Warner’s attention.

So with Didio gone, where will DC go now?  Lots of rumors, but I think it’s safe to say we won’t see a line-wide reboot with Generation Five.  That’s likely to now go down as an interesting footnote in history. … dc-comics/

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

On G5:

I can't really wrap my head around why GENERATION 5 would be a good idea as anything but a temporary situation or a separate line of comics -- such as DC ONE MILLION where crazy brilliant writer Grant Morrison explored what the JUSTICE LEAGUE would be like in the year 1,000,000 and DC's books all did the year 1,000,000 version of their series or when the Marvel Universe created the 2099 line of comics set in the far future of their universe.

As we've seen with SLIDERS, replacing the core cast with newcomers is ultimately alienating and alarming; people want to see Clark Kent and Bruce Wayne. You can do a temporary situation with Dick Grayson taking over as Batman for a time so long as the story indicates that it's as much about Bruce's absence as it is about Dick's succession. Certainly, some lengthy stories such as THE DEATH OF CAPTAIN AMERICA and SUPERIOR SPIDER-MAN suggested that Steve Rogers and Peter Parker had permanently been replaced by Bucky and Dr. Octopus, but the audience knew that the replacement was not to last.

Even in cases like Barry Allen, Hal Jordan, Oliver Queen, Quinn Mallory, Wade Welles and Professor Arturo where the intention was to permanently replace them with Wally West as the Flash, Kyle Rayner as Green Lantern, Connor Hawke as Green Arrow, Mallory as the Caucasian action lead, Maggie as the leading lady and Diana as the scientist -- it was clear that a future creative team would inevitably restore the originals -- unless the TV show were to be unceremoniously cancelled by the Sci-Fi Channel.

On Dan Didio:

Dan Didio did many excellent things and many terrible things during his time at DC. Let's start with the positive: when Didio came aboard DC, DC had done a lot of shortsighted if well-intentioned things in the 80s and 90s; they'd killed off the 60s versions of the Flash and Green Lantern and replaced them with new ones only to discover: TV and movies invariably used the 60s versions. Didio began seeing to it that the comics would reflect the future adaptations by having Geoff Johns restore Barry and Hal as the Flash and Green Lantern.

Didio oversaw GREEN LANTERN going from an awkward, disliked series to one of the company's biggest franchises. Didio also maintained the BATMAN line of books as written by crazy brilliant writer Grant Morrison and saw to it that the BATMAN line maintained a high standard with top talent like Peter Tomasi, Scott Snyder, Gail Simone, James Tynion IV and other phenomenal writers. BATMAN and GREEN LANTERN comics sold well and Didio largely let talented writers work well. If a DC book sold well, Didio encouraged and supported its continued success.

However, outside of BATMAN, GREEN LANTERN and THE FLASH, DC was and isn't doing well; most comics aren't. Didio's attitude with lower selling titles like SUPERMAN, WONDER WOMAN, LEGION and others was constant, contradictory interference. He created a culture where creators would see stories and artwork approved only for Didio's editorial to ask for changes and then those changes would be reversed and then re-reversed and then issues would be redrawn, delayed or pulped. BATWOMAN's 2012 creative team received approval for Kate Kane to marry Maggie Sawyer and this was abruptly withdrawn after scripts and outlines were submitted; the team gave up and quit. SUPERMAN's 2011 writer, George Perez, was given contradictory information as to whether or not Clark Kent's parents were dead or alive in the new reboot; he also gave up. Dwayne McDuffie, writer on JUSTICE LEAGUE, found himself regularly being told that characters were no longer available to star on the team after he'd written the scripts.

It looks to me like Didio, in an effort to create short term sales spikes, would regularly come up with crossover ideas but refuse to inform his creative teams or give them or himself enough lead in time to prepare, hence all the last minute changes and disapprovals on what was previously approved. There was a dismissive attitude to the creators who are all freelancers; an attitude that they could be replaced by anyone, so respecting them was not needed even as 2011 - 2019 saw creators leaving DC and Dan Didio. Didio made sure to treat the highest selling writers with consideration, giving Grant Morrison and Scott Snyder and J. Michael Straczynski and Brian Michael Bendis plenty of space but having little concern for George Perez or Paul Jenkins or JH Williams III.

Didio would often order linewide reboots and new directions but not have a clear direction or guidelines for his creators except constantly telling them that what they'd produced in lieu of clear management was not what he wanted from them at which point they would leave and be replaced. This led to schizophrenic reading for any books that weren't top sellers. WONDER WOMAN received a serious reboot which made Diana a younger trainee rather than a seasoned veteran warrior; then got rebooted again 12 months later to make her a more savage character. BATWOMAN was interrupted in mid-storyline on a cliffhanger at #23 that was resolved in an annual months later by a different writer. SUPERMAN was incomprehensible as it shifted between George Perez, Dan Jurgens, Keith Giffen and Scott Lobdell, being pulled in four different directions inside 24 months with each writer's stories abruptly truncated.

While Dan Didio has many, many, many winning books to point to as a success, they are surrounded by many more comics where creators leave in mid-storyline with plots unfinished or wrapped up by a last-minute replacement writer. It looks like by 2020, this disdain for freelancers from Didio extended to his editors as well -- people who are actually on the company payroll and whose departures will indicate that their former manager isn't very good at management.

I'm not saying Marvel doesn't make the same mistakes, but they plan out their universe a year or two in advance. Sometimes, their directions are very successful: CIVIL WAR was a hit, DARK REIGN went really well, MARVEL NOW was another hit. Sometimes, their directions backfire: the SECRET EMPIRE storyline where Captain America is replaced with a parallel Nazi version was badly received; the DECIMATION era of X-MEN being reduced to around 200 mutants globally wasn't well-liked -- in which case, Marvel would see their plans through, wrap up those stories and then try something new.

In contrast, Didio was constantly changing his creative teams and storylines before they could even be evaluated for success or failure; SUPERMAN in in the New 52 went through three writers in one year.

In addition to that -- Didio ignored numerous complaints of sexual harassment from his staffers. Former editor Eddie Berganza of the SUPERMAN titles was reported repeatedly for grabbing women and forcing unwanted kisses on them. His victims were silenced through firing, layoffs, non-disclosure agreements and Didio simply banned the SUPERMAN office from hiring women as staff or freelancers. Berganza's assaults were reported for years in comics press; only when they were repeated in Buzzfeed-- not reported for the first time, just repeated -- did Didio finally fire Berganza.

Former editor Valerie D'Orazio revealed that when editor Mike Carlin was repeatedly demanding that she date him, Didio's response was to offer D'Orazio a raise for having to put up with Carlin. When D'Orazio asked for paid medical leave to deal with the trauma, Didio informed her that the company would not allow it and D'Orazio resigned at which point Didio offered to extend her health insurance by 30 days if she would sign a non-disclosure agreement. She refused. Shortly afterwards, Warner Bros. human resources informed D'Orazio that Didio had lied to her; the company would have granted her paid medical leave. Didio didn't want to acknowledge that his staff had sexual harassers; he tried to cover it up.

Didio's unwillingness to chart a course and see it through before starting another one has finally seen him removed from a job at which he was occasionally brilliant, but occasional brilliance doesn't counter regular incompetence.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

And now this: … van-sciver

If they were smart (and AT&T is not smart), they would license the publishing out to other companies. Even Marvel has already done this by letting IDW print its kid’s line using Spider-man, Avengers, etc

If IDW didn’t jump at the chance for DC, I imagine there are other companies like Boom Studios that would love a shot. Don’t see Image doing it, though - they have a unique business model where Image basically licenses out their logo to put on a book (the company itself doesn’t fund much).

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

And speaking to Didio’s successes, I think another thing that hurt him recently was Batman stumbling a bit under Tom King.  I liked some of what King was doing, but it was an unrelenting destruction of Batman that lasted too long, and I believe ultimately readers were so beaten and bruised that they crawled away.  The failure of the Catwoman marriage was probably the turning point for many as it was a gut punch after the build up to it.

And as many have noted, when Batman sales are hurting - usually the higher ups start paying special attention.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I actually haven't gotten to the Tom King run yet. I'm perpetually 2 - 4 years behind comics, buying them in bulk during a Comixology sale and reading through them then. I often wait for a run to be complete -- except I never got around to reading the Brian Michael Bendis run on X-MEN or the recent run of THE FLASH. With superheroes in TV and film, superhero comics aren't a terribly rewarding medium for me these days. But I shall defer to your judgement on it as you know your stuff.


Ethan Van Sciver and Cosmic Book News are... not the most reliable source of 'news,' to be frank. Van Sciver is a brilliant artist, but he hasn't worked for DC since 2017 after multiple writers (with the sales figures for Didio to leave them alone) refused to work with him again for reasons not specified but easily inferred. It was the same year that Van Sciver (a brilliant artist) told a fan to kill themselves and everyone from colorists to writers condemned him.

Van Sciver (a brilliant artist) apologized and made a donation to a suicide prevention charity, but that struck me as the end of brilliant artist Ethan Van Sciver's career in mainstream comics and DC hasn't been willing to hiring him since. When Mark Brooks, Chris Sotomayor, Paul Jenkins, Marc Andreyko, Mark Waid, Cully Hammer, Fabian Nicieza and B. Clay Moore and just about anyone in comics holds him in contempt, who employed at DC or Marvel would even talk to Van Sciver (a brilliant artist) at this point to give him the inside scoop? Would Van Sciver (a brilliant artist) know anyone even peripherally involved with DC who'd be anyone but a fellow disgruntled former employee?

Van Sciver is a brilliant artist, but his story doesn't even make any sense. Why would AT&T fire Dan Didio from DC and then declare that they will be letting the company live or die based on the publishing initiative spearheaded by... the guy they just fired? Don't corporations generally prevent the previous executive's projects from coming to fruition?

What gain would there be in letting Generation 5 go forward? If it's successful, the previous executive takes the credit and one wonders why he was let go. If it's a failure, one wonders why the company allowed a project produced by someone they deemed incompetent to continue existing. There is absolutely no advantage to carrying G5 out especially if the plans were a few Post-Its at best, and there is absolutely no rationality in firing Didio over his management of G5 and then declaring DC publishing to be dependent upon G5's success or failure when firing Didio makes it clear that the project was failing AT&T's standards of competence.

Except there's a grain of truth in the story from the brilliant Van Sciver: DC (and Marvel) haven't made much money from publishing in years. The comics division is largely research and development for feature films and TV shows. And DC's owners could very reasonably decide at some point that they can do R&D without publishing monthly comic books. The brilliant Van Sciver's seemingly revelatory 'news' about DC Comics' fate is something that could have happened at any time in the last 20 years; he's just taken a guess at to what the flashpoint could be and I don't think it's a good guess.

If I keep guessing that at some point, Slider_Quinn21's child will start talking, I'm going to be right eventually. It doesn't mean I've installed spy cameras into his home.


I am still in the process of re-reading VAMPIRELLA comics written by Grant Morrison and Mark Millar from 1997. I'm pretty behind the times in my reading; Grant Morrison and Mark Millar don't even talk to each other anymore. :-)

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

In line with the credibility questions of Cosmic Book News, we have this:

Incredibly hard to believe.   But then again - who would have thought the UK would leave the EU and Trump would be President.  We live in a parallel universe these days.

I would also point out that this did in fact almost happen before.  Marvel was set to outright buy DC in the 80’s, but didn’t go through with it over fear of the feds getting involved.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

It is absolutely possible that AT&T could shut down DC Comics publishing, stick to TV and film and animation for that line of characters going forward. It's also possible that NBCUniversal will announce a revival of SLIDERS. Just because something is possible does not mean that it is impending or even likely; as you said, Marvel contemplated buying DC in the 80s and has extended offers to license Superman. They even offered to license SMALLVILLE to publish a tie-in comic (and were of course ignored).

However, Marvel today isn't really about publishing comic books. Comics are simply an R&D lab for producing copyrights that could conceivably be made into films and TV shows. I'm not sure Marvel, a film and TV studio, would want AT&T's leftovers unless they had the DC film and TV departments as well. Marvel outsourced young adult comics to IDW as Marvel's comics department is really about catering to diehard superhero fans and generating raw material for other departments.

To see Dan Didio's firing as the flashpoint for all these potentialities becoming realities is the domain of self-important clickbait, the kind Cosmic Book News specializes in, and I have a lot of distate for Cosmic Book News and Bounding Into Comics for posting idle speculation from disgruntled former employees no longer in the loop with DC or Marvel as breaking news regarding those companies.

The reality is that DC has fired a manager for constantly demanding last minute changes that would then be reversed and then re-reversed leading to his employees leaving. This was tolerated when suffered by freelancers because freelancers are, on a corporate level, viewed as interchangeable. If Jim Shooter protests having to rewrite an issue of LEGION for the 305th time unpaid, DC will hire Temporal Flux to do it and AT&T isn't going to be concerned with constant turnover in what are essentially short-term, part-time contracts. However, when that's happening with staff members on payroll, it presents the manager's incompetence in a way that became impossible to ignore -- much as Eddie Berganza assaulting women could be ignored when reported on Bleeding Cool and Comics Beat but could not be ignored when it made Buzzfeed.

But hysterics like Cosmic Book News are using Didio's dismissal to declare that the apocalypse has come when the truth is, the apocalypse is always coming for comics whether it's printing costs, sales decreases, the rise of digital, the crash of the speculator market and it won't be one inept manager's firing that sparks the death of the company. Change is coming regardless -- ideally, I'd like that change to be DC shifting into the graphic novel market and leaving the monthly pamphlets behind.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Looks like Generation Five at DC is still moving forward: … comics-5g/

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Kara watching her own show on Netflix is the most joyfully ridiculous thing I’ve ever seen. I love it.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I liked that episode.  What if episodes are fun. 

But I don't buy that Agent Liberty and his cronies could've killed J'onn just because they know that Kara is Supergirl.  I also think we needed Tyler Hoechlin in that episode if we're being honest.  Either in the Lena and Kara are friends timeline or in the Lena doesn't know Kara timeline.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Also... if Lex was a hero in this new timeline (as far as the public is concerned), wouldn't the events of Season 4 be extremely different from what Kara was watching on Myxflix?

Like I said -- people who write altered timelines without Slider_Quinn21's guidance do so at their peril.

1,232 (edited by Slider_Quinn21 2020-03-03 07:51:22)

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Yeah I hadn't thought about that.  In fact, we haven't seen Clark post-Crisis.  How much has Superman's story changed if Lex is known as a good guy?  Did Lex and Clark work together in the same way Lena and Kara did?  Also...and I guess this has to be asked...was Lex actually a good guy in the merged timeline and was simply replaced by a bad guy Lex Luthor?

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant … ff-for-5g/

DC's current/remaining publisher, Jim Lee, says that 5G will go forward with Jon Kent as Superman, Lucius Fox as Batman and so forth -- but 5G will not have Clark, Bruce, Diana and others taken out of their titles and replaced by their descendants, so presumably, the new Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman will co-exist the same way Marvel published SPIDER-MAN 2099 but didn't cancel AMAZING SPIDER-MAN.

However, originally, the plan was most definitely to take Clark, Bruce, Diana, Hal, Barry, Arthur, Oliver and the rest out of the comics. It's unlikely that DC could have permanently kept them out; numerous editorial teams have sought to irreversibly replace Barry Allen with Wally West, Hal Jordan with Kyle Rayner, and Oliver Queen with Connor Hawke only for a later team to restore them. But the originals with 5G were planned to be out of circulation indefinitely under Didio -- which will no longer happen now that Didio is out.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

They need to get Kate out of Gotham for season 2.  There's too much history in Gotham, and the show doesn't have the ability (contract-wise) to reference almost any of that.  For example, the antagonist in the most recent episode was Duela Dent - a character known as Joker's Daughter.  Everything was fine except for the fact that they couldn't reference Harvey Dent.  They refer to him as a beloved ADA.

So Batman was around for a while but never faced Two-Face?  Or was Two-Face never confirmed to be Harvey Dent?  It seemed like, based on Elseworlds, that most of Batman's villains are in Arkham, but are they all in there?  Are they still there?  Is that why Bruce left?  Is any of that ever going to be referenced?

If the answer to any of those questions is "probably not" then Kate needs to move to a different city with less history and less baggage.


Has there been any movement on either Superman & Lois or Green Arrow & The Canaries?

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Slider_Quinn21 wrote:

Has there been any movement on either Superman & Lois or Green Arrow & The Canaries?

Superman has already been picked up for a full first season: … by-the-cw/

Green Arrow & The Canaries won’t be decided on until May: … uggenheim/

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

The pilot script for SUPERMAN AND LOIS has been written. Production has cast two boys to play Jonathan and Jordan Kent, the sons of Lois and Clark.

Slider_Quinn21 wrote:

They need to get Kate out of Gotham for season 2.  There's too much history in Gotham, and the show doesn't have the ability (contract-wise) to reference almost any of that.  For example, the antagonist in the most recent episode was Duela Dent - a character known as Joker's Daughter.  Everything was fine except for the fact that they couldn't reference Harvey Dent.  They refer to him as a beloved ADA.

So Batman was around for a while but never faced Two-Face?  Or was Two-Face never confirmed to be Harvey Dent?  It seemed like, based on Elseworlds, that most of Batman's villains are in Arkham, but are they all in there?  Are they still there?  Is that why Bruce left?  Is any of that ever going to be referenced?

If the answer to any of those questions is "probably not" then Kate needs to move to a different city with less history and less baggage.

I'm curious as to why this is where you drew the line, although I admit, SUPERGIRL was not set in Metropolis. I don't question your judgement at all on this; I have regularly joked that the CW is airing low budget cable spinoffs of SUPERMAN and BATMAN shows that never made it to air. But why was Duela Dent the tipping point for you?

I guess, for me, I have a sense of humour about it. We get Luke Fox instead of Lucius Fox! Hush instead of the Riddler! Magpie instead of Catwoman! Mouse instead of Clayface! The Executioner instead of The Reaper! Nocturna instead of the vampire Monk! Parker Robbins instead of the Calculator!

It's funny and I look forward to Batwoman encountering Jason Todd instead of Dick Grayson; Marsha Queen of Diamonds instead of Mr. Freeze; Olga, Queen of the Cossacks instead of Cheshire, Egghead instead of Hugo Strange, and I do hope we'll see Aunt Harriet and Harold Allnut (Batman's mechanic).

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

This wasn't the tipping point - I don't think the show should've ever been set in Gotham.  Let her get all the goodies from Bruce and then go somewhere else.

What bothers me about Duela is the fact that the show around her is disingenuous.  If they're going to do Joker's Daughter with no ability to say "Joker" or mention her father, then why do it at all?  Why not just invent a new character?  When Magpie is running around being Catwoman, shouldn't *everyone* be calling her a Catwoman ripoff?  If we're to presume that Batman had his career with his rogues' gallery, then we have to assume that his villains were well known and would be referenced in casual conversation.

Moving her is such a simple solution.  The show doesn't have to worry about pre-established villains, it doesn't have to worry about Arkham, it doesn't have to worry about ripoffs, and it doesn't have to create this weird private police department (separate from the GCPD?) so that we don't have to talk about the GCPD.  We don't have to worry about Gordon or Riddler or anything - she can just do her own thing.

The show just insists on doing things with an arm tied behind its back because, what, Gotham is cool?  Gotham is cool - and we just had a better show set in it :-/ Do your own thing now.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant … -departure

Considering all that ireactions has taught us about Brandon Routh, this made me sad.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

The essay I wrote on Routh is here:

I'm still offline -- my home internet is down (and I have two technicians coming today and tomorrow), but that's why I haven't been that active and why I haven't been able to stream the Arrowverse shows. I have dial up speed internet through my phone.

I don't have a problem with Ray Palmer being written out. LEGENDS has always been a show where people come and go. Hawkman and Hawkgirl left; Nate came in. Jax and the Professor left; Snart left, Amaya left -- the Wave Rider was a journey for these characters, not their final stop. I don't think Brandon Routh and Courtney Ford would take issue with it -- except that, reading between Routh's extremely unspecific statements, it looks like Phil Klemmer didn't tell Routh and Ford that they were only going to be in eight episodes out of 15 until their contract options were picked up but only for half of their availability, meaning Routh and Ford had to find out from their paperwork when reviewing it with their agents. They did not receive a formal meeting with their showrunner informing them that they were being fired.

Fired is a strong word. Actors are very much freelancers with options for contractual renewal. John Rhys-Davies was fired from SLIDERS. In contrast, Meghan Markle (Amy Jessup) was not fired from FRINGE for having done something wrong; she was intended to be a regular but the season's storyline shifted away from supernatural threats to technological forces and Jessup's faith-oriented character no longer made sense without supernatural elements. Markle didn't do anything wrong and she wasn't thrown off the show, but it amounts to the same result of an actor no longer being employed on the series. Meghan Markle seems to have done okay since then, but if you don't communicate with an actor that their role is being written out and given a happy ending and a fond farewell, it feels like a firing.

And I think that was an issue for Routh and Ford because they had a home in Vancouver and their son was enrolled in school in Vancouver and they had expected to be working in Vancouver for the entire season of LEGENDS. When informed that they were only doing eight episodes, they suddenly had to plan for a move back to Los Angeles to find new work, take their son out of school, confuse their child with abruptly different surroundings, say good-bye to their friends and colleagues in British Columbia -- and the LEGENDS showrunners could have let them know much before they'd planned another year of their lives in Canada.

They may also have not been given enough notice to make sure they had projects lined up to make up for the loss of income after their LEGENDS exits.

I don't know why this happened, but we should never ascribe malevolence to what might be incompetence. Routh is worth $12 million on paper, so I assume he shall make it through the year, but he is of course upset. He says he won't be returning to LEGENDS but will guest-star on FLASH, SUPERGIRL, BLACK LIGHTNING, SUPERMAN AND LOIS and (if picked up) GREEN ARROW AND THE CANARIES.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Oh, I don't feel bad for him.  I just feel like he felt like he found something on Legends and it sucks that he's going to have to re-define himself again.  Maybe not permanently, but I think, from what you'd described, Ray Palmer really filled a gap in his life.  And the writers sorta ended that part of his life.  I'm sure he'll be fine and will recover better and easier than when he lost Superman, but it's a weird thing.

What's funny is that I think Ray would fit on pretty much any of the shows.  I think he'd work well with Kara on Supergirl, he'd fit right in on Team Flash, and he'd be a welcome injection of fun on Batwoman.  This is, of course, assuming they did a different ending for him.  This one is hopefully definitive because I'd like Ray to live happily ever after.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I agree that Routh redefined himself during LEGENDS. He elaborated further on his post-Superman depression during his Inside Of You podcast with Michael Rosenbaum -- he said that before auditions, he resented having to audition at all and wouldn't read scripts properly and he auditioned poorly. Instead of preparing, he would sink into WORLD OF WARCRAFT at the expense of rehearsing and working out -- until his wife gave birth and he realized his video game addiction was a problem.

He wanted to be the charismatic leading man, couldn't get the work -- and on LEGENDS, he came into his own as the dysfunctional manchild who suffers from imposter syndrome who makes error upon error until his persistence leads to success. In Season 1, Reddit set up a "Fuck Up Counter" each week to count how many times Ray screwed up. It was hilarious. It made me -- and Routh, I guess -- realize that it was okay to fail, to lose, to be defeated -- so long as you kept trying to move forward even if your original goal (playing Superman again) might no longer be possible. And in the end, Routh did get to play Superman again. We saw Superman having lost his wife, his best friend, his parents, his father figure -- and he mourned, but he carried on and then at the end, they were restored. LEGENDS gave Routh clarity and closure. It wasn't the feature film release Routh had hoped for, but it was an acceptable facsimile of his hopes much in the way SLIDERS REBORN was an adequate substitute for a revival (for me, at least).

Anyway. I would like to see Routh and Ford in a reboot of REMINGTON STEELE, an 80s TV show about a talented lady private investigator named Laura Holt (Stephanie Zimbalist) whom no one takes seriously because she's a woman, so she starts telling her potential clients that she's a mere employee working for a non-existent detective named "Remington Steele" -- except a con man (PIERCE BROSNAN) sweeps into her life and assumes the name Remington Steele, forcing Laura to play along, continue her cases while trying to uncover who Steele is, why he's come into her life, and how and why he seems to have all the skills and talents that the imaginary Remington Steele would have.

I think Routh should play Loren Holt whom no one takes seriously as a private detective because he's a superstar gamer who was banned after an embarrassing event involving bungee jumping and a bar fight and a Slushie and a woman named Ambrosia. Routh's character decides to present himself as the tech support for the brilliant, deadly and glamourous lady detective named Remington Steele, a fictional creation whose identity is adopted by a con woman played by Courtney Ford, a woman whom Routh is hopelessly crushing on, except -- is this woman he's falling for in any way real? Or is she simply performing in the role of the dream woman Routh imagined for himself as the public face of his detective agency?

Brandon Routh! Courtney Ford! Together, they are REMINGTON STEELE! It could happen. I had to use dial-up speed to post this.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Over in the political thread, I wrote:

ireactions wrote:

This might have fit in better with the Arrowverse thread, but it's political in nature. Since the Season 2 finale, SUPERGIRL has raised a question it hasn't been able to answer: where is Jeremiah Danvers? Where the hell has Dean Cain been?

His character was introduced as Kara's foster father in the pilot, thought dead in the present day, revealed to be alive in Season 2, exposed as being in league with Cadmus, an anti-alien terrorist group, for reasons unknown, aside from a hint that Lillian Luthor was building something for him in exchange for his help.

Jeremiah didn't appear in the Season 2 finale when the Cadmus arc was resolved and a defeated Lillian Luthor said that she didn't know where he was. Cain never returned to SUPERGIRL. Seasons 3 - 4 have acknowledged Jeremiah's existence without indicating his whereabouts and neither production nor Dean Cain have publically addressed his absence.

Why? I've heard that it's because during Season 2, Cain publically supported Trump in the election. And even though he was contracted as a guest star, production decided not to have him on set again after Season 2's fifteenth episode and cut all ties with him. They didn't want Cain associated with the SUPERGIRL brand, a brand that would later take a hit worse than anything Cain might have inflicted when showrunner Andrew Kreisberg was investigated for sexual harassment and fired off all his shows.

So, three years later, SUPERGIRL has apparently decided to, um, kill Jeremiah off camera. Okay then.


SUPERGIRL's episode about transphobia reminds me of the BATWOMAN episode. I was telling my (very gay) niece, Lauren, about BATWOMAN that week; how Gotham assumes Batwoman is straight and starts shipping her with an attractive cop; how the physicality of Kate stopping a runaway train with a grappling hook is nonsensical; how the teenaged Parker tries to flee Alice but helpfully runs towards Alice so Alice can capture her and have a hostage for the climax. Lauren, a film student, agreed that this sounded pretty amateurish.

But when I described how Kate is irked by the press straightwashing Batwoman and how Parker describes her ex-girlfriend outing her and how she doesn't see lesbians represented as people of importance and how Parker dismisses Batwoman trying to console her over her outing, saying a popular and straight lady being shipped with the hottest guy in town couldn't understand -- but then Kate unmasks before Parker to reveal a gay woman as Gotham's protector --

ME: "Lauren, are you crying?"

LAUREN: "I'm a little teary, don't make a thing of it. BATWOMAN sounds like a cheap CW show with some serious blocking problems."

BATWOMAN, despite its faults of scripting and visual storytelling, was clearly saying something that needed to be said (albeit in a crashingly unsubtle and somewhat artless manner). Temporal Flux remarked that shows like THE TWILIGHT ZONE once presented stories in a more artistic and clever fashion with allegory rather than merely transplanting the real world into a fictional context and there is something to that -- which for me, says BATWOMAN could have used some irony, some humour, some charm in its Very Serious Pronouncements.

And I feel the same way about SUPERGIRL's transphobia episode. It's saying things that need to be said. I have regretfully been transphobic in that I have never been able to wrap my head around why a man would want to be a woman and get paid 80 cents on the dollar under a glass ceiling while standing in long lineups for the washroom. That said, people need to be who they are; I myself  wouldn't mind regenerating into Jodie Whittaker. I once went out on a date with a woman and I am ashamed to say that I told her, "I'm sorry; I don't think we can date. I can barely deal with having a penis myself; I don't think I can handle yours as well." The woman told me to go fuck myself and I went to see Lauren.

ME: "Was that transphobic?"

LAUREN: "YES! What the hell is wrong with you!? CHANGE your dating app settings! Holy fuck!"

ME: "Sorry. Sorry."

But, um, I've done better since then? A little while ago, I was listening to a DOCTOR WHO podcast and really enjoyed it because a prominent SLIDERS fan was speaking about it. I did get confused for a moment, however; why was Ian McDuffie suddenly using they/them pronouns and going by the name Annie Fish? But if Annie Fish were the real person before or even just now, so be it; I sent Annie a message saying I enjoyed their appearance and was happy to learn who they were now and I logged into to take out Annie's deadname and add their real name.

My point is that despite having no dislike for transgender individuals and being ridiculously attracted to androgynous looking individuals (everyone I crush on looks like a thirtysomething Lachlan Watson), I have behaved in transphobic ways and said transphobic things and so SUPERGIRL was saying something important. The transphobic assaulter is shown to be absurd, in no way a character; I believe the Angus character would lure transgender women to beat them, but he specifically seeks out the local transgender superheroine and when he gets his moment with her, he seems to think a hunting knife could defeat a metahuman who can wield psychic energy in any form. What exactly did he think was going to happen? Angus is not in any way a plausible depiction of transphobia; he's a punching bag who spouts some.

And the strong moral argument of the episode is that Dreamer would be wrong to murder Angus, which is absolutely fine, but I'm not sure Dreamer would be wrong to break his hands, break his legs, blind him in one eye and see to it that were he to attempt a future assault, he'd be hobbling towards his victims with limited depth perception and an inability to close a fist. But SUPERGIRL is not a show that seems capable of nuance. One longs for fake feminist Joss Whedon's comic touch -- such as that episode of FIREFLY where Shepherd Book concedes that as a priest, he shall not kill, but the Bible is somewhat vague on maiming and kneecaps.

Anyway. Transphobia is bad. That's something worth saying. Would that it were said... more gracefully. That said, as the SUPERGIRL subreddit is filled with straight white men labelling any story element not relevant to straight white men as "virtue signalling," perhaps TWILIGHT ZONE style allegory is simply mis-timed to the moment.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I have believed a lot of ridonkulous things over the years and still often do. I believe that rock star vampires, super-intelligent snakes, animal human hybrids and Dream Masters fit into SLIDERS. I believe that Maggie Beckett is a very interesting character with a lot to offer. I believe that the sliders could somehow rotate between different outfits and that Arturo could have a tailored suit every week despite nobody ever carrying luggage. I even believe that David Peckinpah was talented.

But I do not believe that the Wave Rider only has one washroom under any circumstances. That's nonsense. It's a spaceship with multiple suites and extensive living quarters.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

So, I've been in no mood for talking about superheroes, but going back to Ray's departure --

Despite Routh's anger over how he was dismissed from the show, the exit for Ray Palmer and Nora makes sense for the characters. Ray had gone from being a mysterious, distant scientist on ARROW to a goofy, hyperactive blunderer who couldn't find a single bad situation he couldn't make worse and whose overeager errors reflected insecurity where he'd once been highly capable.

In Season 2, Ray confesses that he feels worthless because what he has to offer doesn't come from within himself; his contribution to the Legends and the world is the ATOM suit, a suit that is perpetually malfunctioning and dependent upon a rare mineral that he's unlikely to find and reproduce again -- much as Routh's primary place in this world was a single performance as Superman that defined his career but was ultimately discarded.

And then, in Season 3, Ray began to come further into his own as his perseverance, optimism, sense of fair play and teamwork and manic overperformance in all tasks be they laundry or punching villains to the point where his relentless insistence that Nora could be saved turn out to be quite correct. And now that Ray and Nora have gotten married, Ray Palmer's life aboard the Wave Rider has come to a turning point.

They could've kept Ray on the Wave Rider; they could have had more arcs for him and Nora; they could have kept Ray in play and had him deal with living with roommates and his wife, they could have had Nora wrestling with her dark past -- but the writers decided that they had reached a point of closure, completion and fulfillment for both Ray and Nora. And they wanted to let the characters go and send them off to a happy ending.

Probably should've told Routh that properly, in person, over a lavish lunch and with a stipend to cover his expenses for having to move back to Los Angeles and an offer to play Superman again before his exit story.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

I agree.  I thought his exit was done nicely.  Not only did Ray not have to die (like Stein), but he gets a genuinely happy ending.  I think he genuinely loved the Waverider, genuinely loved the adventure of traveling through time, and genuinely loved his fellow legends.  But he also genuinely loves Nora, and he wants to try something else.  It didn't take much to convince Ray to leave because I think, on some level, he knew it was time to leave.

Besides, Legends is equipped (kinda like Sliders) to go through massive cast changes without a beat.  Watch an episode from season 1 and the current season and see how hard it is to remember that it's the same show.  There's a quality to the show that makes it watchable above the cast.  And even though I'm still wishing the show had been an anthology series (especially now, as there are so many different playgrounds they could've played in by now), this show is probably the most consistently entertaining show now.

Best of luck to Ray and Nora, and best of luck to Brandon Routh.


Looks like we'll get a full season of Legends, but we'll get shortened seasons of Flash, Supergirl, and Batwoman.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

LEGENDS was never getting a full season anyway; it only had 15 episodes, the first of which was the CRISIS tie-in.

I have to say, it's not looking good for CANARIES; with so much uncertainty and no sense of when filming can resume, I personally wouldn't greenlight new projects and couldn't blame others for declining to do so.

It's hard to say WHEN filming will resume. While the world will get through this pandemic, it is foolish to say when it will be safe to lower social distancing measures. China took several months to peak and slow down and that was with very intense measures of control that Western countries can't and won't use.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Yeah, I suppose the only way to get back to filming for something like The Flash or Supergirl or Batwoman (just to finish their seasons) is if:

1. The summer heat significantly slows the spread of coronavirus to allow lessening of social distancing measures and allow for a few weeks of filming.

2. Testing improves in both quality and quantity so that *every* person on set can be tested efficiently every day to see if they have the virus.

Otherwise, I agree.  I'd suspect that we won't see newly show TV until sometime in 2021 after the vaccine comes out. hmm

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant … 234595453/

Warner Bros.' TV departments is discussing how they can resume filming after the virus is confirmed to have peaked in Vancouver but before effective antivirals or vaccines are available. They're wondering if they can produce shows with no physical contact between actors and stunt performers, no extras, no outdoor location filming, no open access food tables, and all crew members six feet apart.

... I dunno.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Truly...that sounds like some awful television.  But it would be a new level of irony to see Flash using Zoom.

Re: Arrow / The Flash / Supergirl by Informant

Parks and Rec did an episode last night that was all filmed separately on iPhones.  It worked as a one-off, but it's a crazy strategy and not worth it in almost all cases.

It sounds like the Arrowverse is going to simply cut seasons where they were.  It sounds like Batwoman and Flash are both going to simply restructure existing episodes as season finales.  In the case of Batwoman, I read an interview with a castmember who said he hopes that the other 3 episodes get shown...I don't know if they'd still film them or if they'd incorporate it into the next season or what.  Both shows claim they got lucky and both happened to end on "season finale-like" episodes.  But I can't see how that's the case.  I think it'll just mean that these seasons will bleed into the next season.  Sorta like how Sliders worked, ironically.