Topic: Supernatural

Re: Supernatural

Season 10
Episode 1
"Black"

I wasn't sure what to expect from "Deanmon" (as the promos call him). Would he be good? Would he be evil? Turns out, he's both. He is Dean, but not. He isn't like soulless Sam. Dean is still in there. But at the same time, there's that spark of humanity that Dean has always had that is much dimmer now. It's a weird balance that they found here, but it seems like it's about where he should be. The writers obviously put some thought into what this twist would mean, while lesser writers would have just made him bad and that would be that. If you watch The Vampire Diaries, you see main characters hurting, murdering and sometimes raping innocent people all the time, and it is never depicted as being as horrible as it should be. It's just forgotten about. I love that Supernatural doesn't take stuff like this lightly.

It raises the question of whether Dean will ever go back to the way he was. I mean, he probably will... but does he necessarily have to? This is still Dean. Unlike everything that happened to Sam before, this isn't some outside influence. This is actually Dean. Just not Dean. It's weird.

I was worried that they were going to push Sam too far, just for the sake of making Sam as dark as demon Dean. But nothing that Sam did came across as unnatural or unexpected. He is hunting. Yes, he tortured a demon, but it's not like they haven't done that before. The parts with Sam hunting Dean were so interesting, I almost could have lived with seeing this storyline entirely from Sam's point of view. To see him hunting a demon just like we always see him, only Dean is the demon this time. But that would make it hard for us to get a handle on what Dean is right now.

I don't know what to make of Cole yet. He appears to be human. He says that he has ties to Dean that go way back, which would seem to imply that this is pre-demon Dean. Is he a hunter? Is he law enforcement? I have no idea. But what I like about this story is that it's human! It seems like we haven't had a human on the show for a really long time. I would like to see this develop into bringing the show back to Earth.

And that brings me to the angel storyline. I was okay, don't get me wrong. I just don't feel like I have a team to cheer for in this game. We've seen he angels going round and round with what it means to be on Earth and mingling with humans and who believes what, and what they're willing to do to each other. I was hoping that the war had played out and that we were done with it, because it kinda takes me out of the more interesting story, which is what is happening to Sam and Dean right now. Maybe they should just spin off the angels so that they don't have to keep bringing that story into Supernatural. Honestly, I don't care if angels want to stay down here or go back there. Especially if those angels are just camping out and minding their own business.

Castiel's story could be interesting. To see him lose his power and grow weaker is a solid story to tell. But why keep him separate from the Winchester storyline? Why not just have it happen as he and Sam look for Dean? They don't need an angel/heaven storyline just to have an excuse for keeping him around.


And Crowley. He is a good sidekick for Dean on this trip he's on. That said, one Dean is back to normal, I think that it's time to do away with Crowley. Lock him in Hell or kill him off, or whatever. But he really should go. After a while, if the good guys don't kill the bad guy, they seem incompetent. And if the bad guy doesn't kill the good guys, they seem incompetent. And if they're palling around, then the good guys don't seem like good guys and the bad guy doesn't seem like a bad guy. In which case, what story are they telling?


Overall, it is a solid start to the season. I like how they set things up. I just hope that it plays out well. smile

Re: Supernatural

I thought episode 2 was very strong.  I really liked the way they handled Cole's storyline.  These guys are monsters to certain people - they show up, "kill someone", and hit the road.  You gotta think stuff like this happens all the time.  And it was done very evenly - there's no obvious reason why Dean did it .  Unless I missed it, they never explained what happened to Cole's father.  You never see it from Dean's perspective so, if you're just watching the show, you actually side with Cole.  You want him to get his revenge.

And what I really loved is that he was a total outsider.  He didn't become a hunter.  Never even knew the lore.  He basically just trained, like Batman, to avenge the death of his father.  It was surprisingly cool, and I'm a little sorry he got his ass kicked so bad.

Never did I think the show would introduce a character that I'd be cheering for, against one of the brothers (no matter the circumstances), in his second episode.  That's good writing IMO.

Re: Supernatural

I agree. "Reichenbach" was a very solid episode and this season is turning out to be on of the most interesting season in a while. Not that the last couple of season have been bad, but this story feels personal. It's about Sam and Dean and stories that I can relate to.

Cole is a great character. There is so much emotion to this guy in his first two episodes. We identify with him because his story isn't entirely unlike Dean's story. In some ways, he's like John and Dean combined into one character. And maybe that's the point. Maybe he is supposed to mirror the humanity that Dean has lost. Whether that is what they intended or not, he's very compelling and I hope that he doesn't go away anytime soon. I would like to see him brought into the inner circle eventually.

He also has a family, which I don't think the writers felt free to do with Dean. I always thought it would be a great story for the character, but the fangirls always go crazier when they introduce a long term love interest. Cole could allow them to explore the idea of a hunter with a family. I just assume that he would become a hunter when he finds out WHY Dean killed his father.

I love how they have taken this Dean demon storyline and have used it to ground the show again and make it more human. I don't care about a war in Hell. Crowley and Abaddon exchanged snappy dialogue all year last year, but none of that had a fraction of the tension that I felt in the scene when Dean knocked Crowley down and you realized that if Dean wanted it, he could have it. and it's made creepier by how cool Dean plays it. I have no idea what's going on in his head or where he will go from scene to scene. The way it is being done just draws me into each scene.

The Castiel stuff was fine, but I just don't feel it the way I feel the Sam and Dean stuff. I could care about Castiel dying and being okay with that, but I don't need to see Heaven or other angels. I just feel like that is over. Meanwhile, I could watch an hour from Cole's point of view. He could be the best human character to be introduced since Ellen and Jo.

Re: Supernatural

Idea!

Dean passes the mark of Cain to Castiel. Castiel is not a human soul, so he cannot be corrupted by it and turned into a demon. He can use the power to take over Hell and turn it into the prison that it is meant to be for humans, demons and fallen angels alike. Finally, someone with a moral compass could be running the place!

Re: Supernatural

I do like that idea, BTW.

Did anyone watch the Supernatural Special they aired before the premiere?  It recorded on my DVR and I finally watched it last night.  It didn't reveal a lot of new info, but it's cool how into the show everyone seems to be.  I was thinking it was probably running out of gas, but I could actually see it going another 5 seasons or so.

Re: Supernatural

With the right idea, the show could last a long time. This season has been refreshing so far, with more focus on the Winchesters and less on angels and demons.

I have that special recorded. Still need to watch it

Re: Supernatural

Re: Supernatural

The interesting thing about Demon Dean was that it was still Dean. It wasn't an outside influence or an addiction. It was him, but not him. But I should say that this season has been less about Heaven and Hell, so it's been easier to care. I still find the angel stuff to be a bit much though.

I don't think the problem with Dean is really solved. It's just more of a band-aid at the moment. The mark is still there and it can still corrupt him (though he doesn't have the knife) so I'm sure it will be an issue.

I've seen people mistakenly giving Castiel the credit for curing Dean, but he really just caught Dean and held him in place so that Sam could finish the cure. I don't think it was anything that Sam and Dean couldn't have done, but a one-handed Sam is at a bit of a disadvantage against Demon Dean.

The real meat of Dean's story this year (for me anyway) has been the Cole situation. I hope that his story continues and has an impact on Dean as the season goes on.

Re: Supernatural

Well it wasn't so much that Cass did anything.  It's just that things were miraculously cured when he got there.  It was killing him.  It wasn't what happened with Crowley.  Castiel didn't think it would work.

Then it did.  It was either lazy writing or a rushed ending to get things back to "normal" by the end of this episode.

Re: Supernatural

I don't think it was lazy. The only reason that Dean could escape at all was because the cure was working. It was weakening the demon, but strengthening the human. If the cure wasn't working, there would have been nothing for Castiel to stop in the first place, since Dean would have still been trapped in the demon prison.

Re: Supernatural

Well, then the whole "am I killing Dean?" wrench was poorly executed or poorly explained.  Was Dean faking it to keep the cure from working?  Or was it just the Mark fighting back?

Because it's just left out there.  Why was it "killing Dean?"  Why was it so much different than what happened with Crowley?  If not just for false drama?

Re: Supernatural

The question was mostly about the fact that this was not a demon inside of a host body, like Crowley and the others. Since it was Dean inside of Dean, changed by the mark, Sam couldn't be sure of all of the variables.

I guess I didn't think that "am I killing Dean" was a major plot point, so I didn't put much thought into it during the episode.

Re: Supernatural

Hmmm, yeah, I guess that would change things.  But I thought it was pretty central.  Sam was worried about it.  Then Castiel and the other angel were worried about it.  Then Sam and Cass talked about it.  I thought it was one of the key points - was Sam going to have to kill Dean?  Was Deanmon too powerful for the blood cure?

Then it was like, nope, cure worked.  Just felt a little too easy.  Still a really strong episode.  Just felt like a sitcom ending to get things back to the status quo.  Which is fine because I'm not really sure the Deanmon arc had a lot of gas left.  I think it just could've been done better.

Re: Supernatural

Fair enough. smile

Re: Supernatural

I really liked the 200th episode.  Found a way to pay tribute to the show (with a ton of characters) while also being a very strong meta episode.  I did find two things very interesting:

- First time we've seen Chuck in forever.  I'm surprised that these girls didn't recognize him (which is why I didn't think it was him at first) since he's a celebrity and went to Supernatural cons.  I'm of the mind that Chuck is God so I'm interested to see if he shows up again.

- They mentioned Adam, who disappeared along with Chuck in season 5.  I almost thought remembering Adam would make the boys go on a quest to save him.  After all the lengths they've gone to save each other, they sure gave up on Adam pretty quickly.

I don't know what that'd mean, but it'd be nice if they at least tried to save him.

Re: Supernatural

WAAAAAAAAAADDDDDDDEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Re: Supernatural

Interesting.  I must've missed that.  But the fact that the mega-super-fan didn't recognize him still feels weird.  Although I guess I couldn't pick Tracy Torme out of a lineup so what do I know?

Re: Supernatural

Most authors aren't recognizable visually. Especially when they use pen names, as he did. I know what Dean Koontz looks like, but I still might not process it quickly enough to recognize him if I ever saw him. If that Game of Thrones dude ran me over in the street, I would probably just think that he was just a grumpy old guy.

I enjoyed the episode a lot too. It was a good way to go back and pay tribute to where they've been and where they're going. The play within the episode highlighted all of the core elements of who they are, which they've sort of strayed from in recent years.

When they mentioned Adam, I watched the expressions on their faces. Dean looked like he might have a new mission, which I would have loved to see him declare. It would be an awesome, awesome, awesome way for him to reclaim his humanity. Abandoning Adam was a turning point for Dean, in my eyes. It was the first time he ever walked away from family and the first time he didn't try to honor a promise that he made someone. And then they never mentioned it again.

When they said "Who is that?" and they said that it was Adam, I was curious to see if the brothers even remembered Adam. My theory was always that Dean tried to pull Sam and Adam out of Hell and something went wrong, so Castiel made him forget (tying it into what Dean had Castiel do to Lisa, which is maybe where Dean got that very uncharacteristic idea). But they did seem to remember Adam. I just hope that something comes of this. Otherwise, this is salt in an old wound of mine.

The return of Chuck was very cool and sweet. It said a lot about what is happening now. He's still there. This is still part of the plan. I'm curious to see what that means, if anything comes of it at all. Was this God's way of cleaning house in Heaven?

That said, when they were hiding the face of the visitor from the publisher and all we saw was that jacket, I was kinda hoping that the camera would swing around to reveal Adam. I held my breath for it, but it turned out to be Chuck which just threw me way off.

Re: Supernatural

Yeah I can't imagine the Adam thing just being an "easter egg" - acknowledging it means they're acknowledging it's unfinished business.  Maybe the series will end with finding some way to actually kill the devil so they have to re-open the cage, and Lucifer/Michael get out.  It'd be a lot of retread, though.  So maybe not.  And it did take a ton of crap to get Sam out.

Dean made his choice to save Sam over Adam.  But it is weird that Dean just left him there.

Re: Supernatural

I wouldn't be upset if they failed to get him out. It might be interesting to see them try and fail, because they have managed to get John and Bobby out of Hell so maybe seeing a failed attempt would make it seem hard.

But I have always wanted to see them at least try. I wanted them to feel something about it. They feel guilt and loss over soany other people, from close friends to random guest stars, so why not their own brother? Not knowing him could actually make it harder in some ways.

Re: Supernatural

So...

Dean leaves Lisa and has Castiel erase their relationship so that she is no longer in danger.

Chuck wrote the relationship into the Supernatural books.

Crowley has read the Supernatural books. So he and all of his minions know about Dean loving Lisa.

Which means that the only ones who don't know about Dean and Lisa are Lisa and Ben.

Thus leaving them in more danger than before.

Re: Supernatural

I think the reason they brought it up is because Adam is going to come back as the next big baddy. He has been trapped for some time with Lucifer in the cage getting tortured and what not. And I can see him being really pizzed off that his brothers just left him there. Maybe he has absorbed some demon powers from Lucifer or something and comes for his revenge.

Also, Dean still has that mark of Cain... the guy who killed his own brother. Seems like the only way to resolve that, short of them finding Cain and him taking the mark back, might be for Dean to do the same thing. And you know he's not going to kill Sam.

WAAAAAAAAAADDDDDDDEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Re: Supernatural

It might be interesting to see Adam come back as a bad guy. He could certainly be more scary than Crowley is. We know that human souls can be corrupted and become demons after centuries in Hell, so what happens for a human in the cage?

It would be sad though... which could make it a great story.

On the other hand, there are still a few other loose threads from the series that could be tied to Adam's story. Where are John and Mary, since they weren't found in Heaven? Is God assembling an army of his own, somewhere else?

You know, we have been watching the show for so many years, witnessing the brothers do a lot of really bad things in the name of helping each other. What if the final season is about them being hunted? Not by bad guys, but by good ones.

Re: Supernatural

Well it's weird because we've now had two "bad guys" who have turned bad as a result of a hunter doing his job.  The human from episode two and Olivia in Ask Jeeves.  I was thinking tonight that it's possible that they're leading somewhere with that - they've already gone easy on a couple of monsters.  Maybe they're going to start digging into the collateral damage?