2,041

(758 replies, posted in Sliders Bboard)

To me, it's weird.  I feel like I would like Star Trek: Discovery and The Orville more if they were called "Discovery" and "Star Trek: Orville".  I think MacFarlane could've reigned in some of the more absurdist comedy but presented a fun sci-fi show that takes itself less seriously than shows in the past.

Meanwhile, Fuller could've had fun with his own mythology.  The Klingons and Vulcans could've appeared in another form with another name, and the show would've felt freer without stepping on the toes of previous continuity.

I like them both as is, but I feel like they're shows that are playing in the wrong sandbox.

2,042

(758 replies, posted in Sliders Bboard)

Well, was Trek really an ensemble?  We had episodes for Troi or Kim or whatever, but the shows almost always focused on the captain and one or two crew members.

Alan Sepinwall speculated that maybe we'll get a big name (if Jason Issacs and Michelle Yeoh count as big names) captain for each season.  Not necessarily meaning that the captains will end up dead - maybe the ship changes continue - we've never followed one crewmember on multiple ships before - that could be interesting, actually.

But there's actually a decently fresh slate, and it all sorta ties into the idea that this was supposed to be an anthology show.  It'd actually be nice if the ship *wasn't* called the Discovery so it could actually just be about....discovery.  I think they're pretty committed at this point, but I'd be pretty interested in this cast with a new premise. 

I still sorta wish the Discovery had flung itself 400 years in the future.  Maybe they'd trick Starfleet and the rest of the Alpha Quadrant into thinking the spore drive was too dangerous, and that's why no one uses it.  Then they arrive safely in the future, and it's fair game again.  The crew would both be obsolete (a little like Scotty in Relics) and cutting edge at the same time.

2,043

(758 replies, posted in Sliders Bboard)

Yeah, you're hitting a lot of the nails on the head that we all hit.

- It'd be better if it took place in the future - not the Kirk era
- The Klingons should've been a new species
- It doesn't "feel" like Trek.

Did you watch the Orville?  It was more "Trek" than this was, although both took stabs at making Trek more honest and realistic (Orville was lighter and more sophomoric, this was more violent and sexual)

2,044

(486 replies, posted in Sliders Bboard)

Can we just assume, sorta like the Sliders theory, that every episode of the show is hypothetically a different Mulder and Scully from a different parallel universe?

2,045

(267 replies, posted in Sliders Bboard)

Canonically, where is Adam/Michael?  Is he in a separate part of Lucifer's cage?  When we saw the cage a couple of seasons ago, Lucifer was alone.  Was he moved to that separate cage?

And since this season seems to imply that Michael is evil, was our version of Michael evil too?  He never came across that way to me.

2,046

(758 replies, posted in Sliders Bboard)

Ha, possibly. I just worry they've written themselves into a corner.  I'll look forward to seeing how they pull it off.

2,047

(758 replies, posted in Sliders Bboard)

ireactions wrote:

From a scripting standpoint, nothing's at odds with the original STAR TREK except for aspects that should be ignored anyway like "Turnabout Intruder" saying no woman has ever captained a starship. Gaffes like "Vulcan Hello" contradicting "Tholian Web" (in which Spock said there's no record of a mutiny aboard a starship) have been patched with Burnham's record being expunged. Spock has never been forthcoming about his family, not even acknowledging his parents when they were standing right in front of him.

Well, the biggest thing to me is the Spore Drive.  There are a few ways they could've written it so that it would work, but they seem to be doubling down on it.  They're especially backed into a corner with the idea that the Spore Network essentially drives all life.  Therefore, since life exists in TNG/DS9/VOY, the Spore Network (hypothetically) must exist in some form.  And no one is using it for....reasons?

Maybe it's a little like Bruce Wayne's fusion reactor from the Dark Knight Rises....maybe Starfleet mothballs it for "reasons" in hopes that it can be used better in the future.  But....wouldn't Section 31 use it during the Dominion War?  Now that the Klingons seem to know about it (in the Discovery Era), wouldn't they want it (in the same way every nation on Earth wants the nuclear bomb even though many don't intend on ever using it)?  If Starfleet has that kind of technology and simply don't use it, aren't there hundreds of examples where such technology would've saved lives?

Not only that....even if there's a "we can't take advantage of living creatures ever again" kind of reason for shutting it down....are we to suppose that no other Alpha Quadrant species could've figured it out on their own?  The Borg don't even seem to have it, and they'd probably treat the Spore Network, in some ways, with the same reckless abandon that the Terrans used it.

The hologram technology doesn't bother me as much.  Maybe people just don't like it and that's why the holograms aren't big in the later shows.  We have video phones now, but no one likes to use them, opting for the "less advanced" audio-only phone calls.

But the Spore Drive really bothers me.  For some reason.

2,048

(758 replies, posted in Sliders Bboard)

Which sucks, by the way.  I actually really like the idea of Starfleet "softening" their look as they move toward a more exploratory-based mission.

I like the show.  I really do.  In fact, if Discovery was a Orville-type show taking place out of continuity, I think I'd legitimately love it.  The problem is that the show wants me to believe that it's taking place during a period of Trek history that is VERY known to people.  And they keep showing us stuff that is unknown or doesn't fit or was needlessly changed.  We've had the "they should've set this in a different time period" conversation enough that we don't need to re-hash it.

But damn.  It's Trek but it's not.  It's good but it could be great.  It wants to belong but doesn't really.

The people in charge say it'll all make sense.  I don't really believe them, but I'm going to try not to care anymore.

2,049

(758 replies, posted in Sliders Bboard)

Not sure if anyone else is watching this or not, but the finale was pretty good.  I think if this had been the first season of an anthology series then I think it went pretty well (outside of one thing).  It leads right into the TOS-era stuff, and it ends with a cool little nod to the original series.  It's the Enterprise!  And Spock!

(Except that it's a Discovery-ized version of the Enterprise....which sorta goes against the tie-in novel, right?  ireactions?)

The only thing that wouldn't work (and still doesn't) is the spore drive.  The season ends with the spore drive still very-much in Starfleet hands and very-much a part of Starfleet plans.  They've already said that if the spore network collapses, all life will be destroyed....so it's not like they can use that as their Get Out of Jail Free card.

I have no idea how they're going to fix this plot hole.  I think using the Terrans to destroy the network made perfect sense.  Starfleet mastered this amazing technology, and now it's destroyed and no one can ever use it again.

All in all, I think it was a good season.  I'm looking forward to season 2.

***************

All that being said, I'm still shocked that we have so much material taking place in Kirk's lifetime.  I get that TOS is considered the gold standard for Trek, but I don't understand why.  Yes, it was the classic.  Yes, it has nostalgia for a lot of people.  But it would've had even more nostalgia for people back in 1987, and TNG didn't lean on TOS as much as Discovery has.  The people who watched the 60s Trek as kids are all retired now.  The people who grew up watching Trek that are working now would've grown up with TNG, right?  Shouldn't we be in the middle of a TNG nostalgia craze?

2,050

(1,098 replies, posted in Sliders Bboard)

http://www.superherohype.com/news/41171 … black-suit

It's hard to say if this was cut from Snyder's vision or Whedon's, but it's still cool to see the black suit in live action.

2,051

(267 replies, posted in Sliders Bboard)

Informant wrote:

For f*** sake, how many dead characters have they brought back *this season*??? This would have been a great time to bring Michael/Adam back

I was shocked that it was Gabriel.  And, honestly, pissed.

Gabriel's death scene might be one of the best scenes the show's ever done.  It's wonderfully done, wonderfully acted, and it has a ton of real weight to it.  It was a huge win for Lucifer, but it was also what helped the boys come up with the plan to put him back in the cage.  It's one of the most important scenes in the show, and I think it's a lot about the core of what the show is.

I think he was a great character, but he should've stayed dead.  His death should mean something.  Like John's has.

Michael would've made sense.  Even a miracle resurrection by Raphael would've been better.  I hate this.

2,052

(1,098 replies, posted in Sliders Bboard)

http://www.superherohype.com/news/41166 … solo-movie

Just the concept of this movie confuses me so much.

2,053

(486 replies, posted in Sliders Bboard)

Informant wrote:

Question, going back to the politics of this season: these episodes take place shortly after My Struggle II, right? So we'd be in maybe April of 2016 by now? So there is no President Trump yet. I guess they're fudging the dates so they don't end up making a period piece when all is said and done, but this is a great reason why they shouldn't be doing political commentary.

Mr. Robot did a similar thing.  Their show definitely takes place in 2016, but they're making one of the plotlines about political maneuvering to get a guy like Trump in the White House.  Then there's one scene where a big time player is watching a Trump rally or speech.

I get that Hollywood hates him, and they feel like they're doing their form of protest.  But I don't really see the point of hitting us so hard with it.  I don't like him either, but I don't bring it up all the time at my work.

2,054

(267 replies, posted in Sliders Bboard)

Well, that's the thing.  There are tons of cool characters that could've been brought back if they really wanted (going back to Jo and Ellen).  And yet Rowena comes back time and again.  A super-powerful witch is a cool anti-hero, but couldn't they just introduce someone new?

2,055

(267 replies, posted in Sliders Bboard)

What the heck is up with the writers' obsession with Rowena?

2,056

(1,684 replies, posted in Sliders Bboard)

Well, another way they could do it would be for Oliver to get thrown in prison for vigilantism (not able to connect him to any murders as the Green Arrow, since "The Arrow" did more murdering than GA), and then for the city to vote to legalize vigilantism.  Or for James to threaten the city to the point where the city/government has to officially pardon Oliver to save them.

It wouldn't really work if both of them were unmasked, but maybe he gets thrown in a secret prison so the general public doesn't know his identity? (He probably couldn't be mayor in this case)

2,057

(1,684 replies, posted in Sliders Bboard)

I actually have enjoyed the season, but I'm just a bit weirded out by some of the characterization.  There's actually quite a bit of growth they could be exploring but just aren't.

2,058

(1,684 replies, posted in Sliders Bboard)

If I were in charge, Oliver would've gone to prison and Barry would've revealed his identity to the world.  It's the most-interesting way to deal with the two characters.  The more-powerful guy has to worry about being vulnerable (since people know who he is and who Iris is).  For example, would Barry get to keep his job at CCPD?  Would Joe?  Would Iris have to go into hiding?  There's a ton that could be done with it.

With Oliver, I don't know if they could follow the plot of SuperMax, but it'd be interesting if he was in prison and resigned to it like Barry was.  The problem is....where do you go with it?  Oliver couldn't have his case overturned - he did murder people.  Would he escape Supermax and just be a fugitive?  Would he have to fake his death....again?

2,059

(486 replies, posted in Sliders Bboard)

Well, even putting aside any part of whether or not it's true, it's just a weird thing to put in there.  Because let's assume that Trump *doesn't* shut down the FBI, and let's assume that he either has one term or gets out before one term. 

The jokes are gonna be weird and irrelevant in just a couple of years.  If you tried to watch it in a few years, you'd wonder if you missed some segment of the X-Files where the President was involved.  Because these jokes are really only relevant now.

I think "fake news" and media/government propaganda belongs on the X-Files because they're constantly dealing with misinformation.  Having Mulder say something in one episode or two might be a clever little wink to the audience, but the show is doing it over and over again.  And while they might have something to say now, Trump is a very temporary problem.  It'd be like if every single episode of the Simpsons' first few seasons had a Dan Quayle joke.  It's just weird.

2,060

(758 replies, posted in Sliders Bboard)

Spoilers for this week's Discovery:

S
P
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S

So we got to the end of the Terran arc.  I thought it was pretty good, but then they came to the end.....and I thought they were going to make everything right.  There were a couple of lines of dialogue that seemed like they'd be solving the puzzle.

1. They talk about the Terrans destroying the network.  I thought...."okay, here's how they fix the spore problem.  The Terrans destroy the network for everyone, across all universes, and then no one can ever use it.  People could try and recreate it, but it'll never work again.  That's why we never hear of it again."

But, nope.  They save it.  And the spore network....controls all life in the multiverse?  I'm sure they mentioned something about it in a previous episode, but I started getting visions of midichlorians.

2. (summarized) "We're back in the Alpha Quadrant in our universe, but we missed the time by a little bit" - I thought "YES! This is when they move this to the future.  Maybe they end up in the 25th century and we can take this beyond the TNG era into a new place.  We can have this ship out of time, and maybe the fact that the Discovery vanished without a trace convinces the Alpha Quadrant species to come together and agree not to research the spores or something."

But nope.  They're a few months in the future and they're sticking with the Klingon War stuff.  I understand that it's the crux of the show (and, specifically, Michael's character).  But if they're gonna play with time travel, why not move the show into the future if they can?

It was still a great episode, but I was hoping it'd take this thing in a new direction.

2,061

(954 replies, posted in Sliders Bboard)

The hype is pretty big as far as I can tell.  I've heard a lot of people who don't watch comic book movies getting really excited to see it.

2,062

(486 replies, posted in Sliders Bboard)

Oh and BTW, I'm also a little tired of the Trump jabs.  If Fox is so pissed off about Trump, why doesn't he spend his time trying to investigate him?  He's already free, apparently, to do whatever he wants.

I get that Hollywood doesn't love Trump and wants to pat themselves on the back for speaking out to millions of people, but it really dates the show.  He's going to be out of office before we know it, and these little comments are going to look so petty one day.

2,063

(4 replies, posted in Sliders Bboard)

I saw a trailer for this, and I might check it out.  Looks pretty solid.

2,064

(486 replies, posted in Sliders Bboard)

I really enjoyed this episode.  I thought it was a ton of fun....particularly when Reggie was re-edited into the opening credits and clips from the show.  I thought the actor that played Reggie had great comedic timing and played the part perfectly.

The scene with They and Mulder was played with this fun, surreal quality, and I think the whole Mandela/Mengele Effect was played wonderfully.  It's strange that the best two episodes of the revival (IMO) have been, basically, straight-up comedies, but it's really worked for them when they've gone for it.

2,065

(1,684 replies, posted in Sliders Bboard)

Does Cisco not want to be a main hero?  It seems like he's only willing/able/happy to help when the "top" hero needs help?  He's more than capable on his own, but it seemed like they immediately went from "Trust only Barry' to "Trust only Ralph"

I did like the way Harry and Cisco summoned Killer Frost.  Although I have no idea whether she's good or bad or whatever anymore.  Now she's just a tool that the team uses.  Is she okay with that?  Is Caitlin?  Does any of that matter?

The Barry in prison scenes are pretty good, although if he's willing to use his powers in a fight and to go through the glass.....why isn't he willing to use his powers to escape prison, fight, and then go back?  Is he not *that* fast?

2,066

(1,098 replies, posted in Sliders Bboard)

It is weird.  If the chaos behind the scenes of the Han Solo movie had been for a DC movie, I think it'd be out of control.  But since it's Star Wars, it seems like the bad news is tempered a bit.

Does Disney pay off people to give them better press?  It wouldn't surprise me.  But I think the most likely case is that people want to hear about chaos at DC.  I think the public persona is that those movies are failures and the Marvel movies are successes.  So people will click to read a story about "behind the scenes problems at DC" or "will Affleck leave?  who will replace him?"  Right now, superhero films are the height of clickbait, and I think these sites are just playing to the crowd.

If DC films were more beloved and Marvel films more chaotic, I think it'd be swapped....Disney or no.

2,067

(1,098 replies, posted in Sliders Bboard)

I don't know...I think the DCEU was behind the 8-ball even without the press.  I know, considering everything political, you're anti-media right now (and that's a discussion for another date and time), but the DCEU has been a mixed bag for a majority of people.

When you're talking about comic movies, you have to remember that the vast majority of the audience doesn't know most of these characters.  Most people know Superman and Batman, but even 1/3 of the DC Trinity (Wonder Woman) is a virtual unknown.  There was the show in the 70s, but that's about her biggest touch with mainstream America.  I'd guess most people would assume she's just a female Superman.

I'd say just about no one outside of the comic community knows who Cyborg is.  The Flash might have some extra reach because of the CW show, but I'm sure most people know he "runs fast."  Aquaman is a joke.

So here's where we get back into Marvel/DC.  The MCU has literally made billions of dollars on characters that are even less popular.  No one knew Iron Man, and now he might be one of the most popular/known superheroes out there.  People now know all about Captain America and Ant-Man and Dr. Strange.  Hell, Marvel has turned Rocket Raccoon into a household name.

And whether you like the movies or not, they play to a larger audience because they're simple premises with bright colors and lighthearted comedy.  From a box office standpoint, a mid-level MCU movie can compete with a DC movie for two reasons:

1. Children can go and see them.  Which means that parents go, and it often means that children and parents go multiple times.
2. Non-comic fans find it easier to go because they're more welcoming.

I dragged my fiancee to Dr. Strange because I wanted to see it.  Even though she'd never heard of it (and definitely not him), she ended up having a good time.  I did the same with Suicide Squad, and she couldn't get into it.  One was a fairly straightforward movie with the girl from the Notebook and a love story, and the other was a CGI explosionfest with a bunch of characters she didn't recognize. 

She's not a movie person, and she's definitely not a comic person.  She's one of those people who thinks that all comic characters exist in the same universe and wonders why Iron Man and Superman don't show up in a movie together.  And because Marvel makes movies for children and non-fans, she was able to understand and enjoy what was going on.

I don't think it's a coincidence that the DCEU movie that was the most successful was a) the story that was the most paint-by-numbers origin story and b) the one that you liked the least.  As far as a) is concerned, it made Wonder Woman the most approachable DC movie.

Because you can go see Wonder Woman without seeing anything else.  You can go see Spider-Man: Homecoming without seeing any previous MCU movies.  You might not know who Iron Man is, but the movie plays it pretty safe with his character.  Tony is a mentor character named Iron Man in an iron suit who leads a group called the Avengers that Spider-Man wants to be a part of.

The DCEU is much more stream-lined.  A lot of the character moments require you to understand and know each movie.  Man of Steel plays a huge part in Bruce Wayne's motivations in Batman v Superman (the movie shows that Superman was involved in the fight but it doesn't go into who Superman was fighting or why the collateral damage was explainable).  The scene with Kevin Costner could be confusing if you have no idea who he is, that he's dead, that he died tragically, etc.  The movie plays like a direct sequel to Man of Steel at times, but even team-up Avengers movies usually treat the audience like children when it comes to "this is (hero), this is who they are and this is what their powers are"

Then there's the tone.  The movies are too dark and too scary for young kids to go.  In BvS (the theatrical cut), neither Superman nor Batman are all that heroic or all that likable.  It ends up being a little like Batman Returns where it ends up scaring kids away.  And while Marvel movies are fun and exciting and funny, DC movies are more serious and real and dour.  So, again, you lose casual viewers who like the escapism of lighter movies.  My fiancee would be much more likely to watch a Pixar/Disney movie than a darker, action-thriller.  So she's more excited for me to drag her to Dr. Strange than a Suicide Squad.

(And, honestly, the same applies to Star Wars - those movies are safe and made for anyone to enjoy, regardless of age or awareness of the source material)

So the audience for Justice League shrinks.  BvS wasn't well-received, and Justice League looked like more of the same.  Kids weren't going to go, and they'd already lost a lot of the casual audience because of tone and story. 

Media probably didn't help, but decisions that the DCEU made had already cut out a large part of the audience.

2,068

(1,684 replies, posted in Sliders Bboard)

Informant wrote:

Does Iris manage to stay out of danger now? smile

Well that's the thing.  In a city where a guy can have a meta power that turns him into a nuclear bomb, is Iris really *ever* safe?

2,069

(330 replies, posted in Sliders Bboard)

Well, I don't know if I love it myself...but I watched the Red Letter Media review on Last Jedi and a lot of the complaints seem to be that nothing is really accomplished.  The film's theme about failure is just not getting through to people.

They also had a problem with Kylo "turning good" and then immediately undercutting that twist by becoming the cliche bad guy again.  In watching Kylo's character, I don't think he wants anything to do with ruling the galaxy.  He and Rey have similar goals - they want to understand their place in the galaxy.  Having them leave suits their interests.

And people seem to want there to be more mystery.  I injected a ton of that stuff in there.

So it's not about whether it'd make the movie better (because I liked it just fine) - would it have been better received by the people who hated it?

2,070

(330 replies, posted in Sliders Bboard)

I wonder how The Last Jedi would've been received if these changes were made:

- Rose and Finn sneak onto Snoke's ship.  Evil BB8 does not notice them.

- The throne room sequence from Rey's entrance to the death of the imperial guards is the same

- The rebels escape is the same

- When Kylo asks Rey to go with him, we don't see her answer.  It cuts away with Kylo holding his hand out and her looking at him.

- Rose and Finn work on the tracking computer.  They look back and DJ is gone.

- Hux enters the throne room to find Snoke and the imperial guards dead.  No one else is there.  No sign of Kylo or Rey.  Hux assumes command just as the final Resistance ship runs out of fuel. 

- Rose finishes her work and Finn radios to Poe to jump to light speed.  No one answers.  They look out a nearby window to see the ship explode.  As far as they know, the Resistance was just ended.

- Movie ends with the Resistance (the whole group that escaped) on the same red planet.  Their escape worked.  Hux never finds out that they got away.  Finn and Rose are stuck on the big destroyer, thinking they're alone now.  Kylo and Rey are gone.  Hux is in command of the First Order but also thinks the war is over.  Luke's story is still incomplete.

Ways I think it works:

1. It's a shorter movie.  The extra scenes on Ahch-To don't happen.

2. There's less failure (but still enough for the theme to work).  Finn and Rose accomplish their goals - it's just too late to save the ship (and Holdo, I guess).  The Resistance makes a full escape - their plan works perfectly.  Perhaps Rey got through to Kylo.

3. Luke is still an option to use for Episode IX (especially since Leia essentially says goodbye in this movie).

4. The galaxy is in a really interesting place.  The First Order is led by an incompetent fool who thinks the war is over.  The Resistance is small but not too small.  Help could still be coming.  And completely outside of the First Order/Resistance fight is Kylo and Rey, who have disappeared from the playing board.  Are they going to find the Knights of Ren?  Are they on the good side?  Or the bad side?  What will Finn and Rose do now, especially since Finn thinks all his friends are dead?

5. It leaves a lot of mysteries alive (which people seem to love).

What do we think?

2,071

(1,684 replies, posted in Sliders Bboard)

Telling the city Barry's secret might actually cause some...good storytelling.  It might be a little too similar to how Arrow's season is playing out, but I think it'd be a bigger deal for Barry.

I just don't think that many villains would go after Iris.  If someone wanted revenge on Flash....maybe.  But most villains have a specific plan and want to *avoid* dealing with Barry.  Bringing Iris in would guarantee that the Flash would get involved.  If I were a villain, I wouldn't go anywhere near her.

2,072

(724 replies, posted in Sliders Bboard)

Psych is one of the shows I completely missed when it was on.  I've never seen more than 5 minutes of it.  Seems like something I'd like, but I've never seen it.

2,073

(1,684 replies, posted in Sliders Bboard)

Also....why can't Barry reveal his secret?  Literally every one of his big bads has known his secret before Team Flash knew the bad's secret.  It wouldn't affect Cisco/Caitlin because they already openly work with the Flash, right?  If not, they can defend themselves.  Joe is a cop and fights metas anyway.

The only person it'd affect would be Iris, and she's in danger all the time anyway.  Plus, most of Flash's villains don't have any particular problem with Flash until he interferes with their plan.  Iris would just need some sort of way to signal Barry or anyone on Team Flash, and he could literally be there in a....flash.

2,074

(724 replies, posted in Sliders Bboard)

Anyone watched Black Mirror Season 4 yet?

I really liked it.  I found this year's stories to be less dark, especially the endings.  Even when there are episodes where people do really horrible things (episodes 1 and 3, for example), justice is served by the end.

Slight spoilers for the final episode - I'm really hoping that it takes place in some weird continuity and isn't actually an attempted to tie the whole series together.  To me, Black Mirror functions the best when they're showing us a different world each week.  I don't want it to be one universe and I don't want it to be our world.  Just close enough to scare us but just far enough away that we can steer away smile

2,075

(486 replies, posted in Sliders Bboard)

Yeah, after reading your "This" post, I can buy that logic.  So my casual watching of the show works fine because it isn't important to understand what came before smile

2,076

(486 replies, posted in Sliders Bboard)

In my continuing "casual X-Files fan" mode of watching this show, I was confused - I thought Mulder and Scully were actively a couple.  Weren't they living together and snuggling on the couch last episode?

(I just read irreactions' "This" review so maybe that was a simulation or an individual's vision of Mulder and Scully?)

2,077

(1,098 replies, posted in Sliders Bboard)

I mean if the US government was cool paying out $1 trillion because it owned up to Superman's actions, then great.  And if Superman was willing to work to rebuild (saving billions of dollars), then I'll stand corrected.

******

Changing gears a little bit.

The Ultimate Edition has really got my mind going regarding Bruce Wayne.  Because we get almost no context of what his character was pre-Superman, I have to wonder about what he was like before.

There are so many things about the character that are contradictory or confusing.  Was the Bat-branding something new, or is it only new that people are getting killed for it in prison?  The movie implies that it's new (with the newspaper coverage of it), but neither Bruce nor Alfred ever mentions it.  If it's new, it's something you'd think Alfred would be upset about.  But, again, he seems almost more upset about Bruce not having a girlfriend or a social life than any new parts of Bruce's behavior as Batman (he mutters something about Bruce's love/social life 2-3 times).

If the Bat-branding is new, why is Bruce so nonchalant about people getting killed?  Or does he not care?  Superman spends a lot of time investigating the branding, but the World's Greatest Detective doesn't even seem to notice it.

Speaking of newspaper coverage, Clark treats Batman like he's a brand-new thing.  "This Bat vigilante" is what he keeps calling him.  Batman is stated to have been active for 20 years - has Clark never heard of him in 20 years?  Or is Clark just being dismissive of him, thinking that if he calls him "Batman", he's legitimizing him?

Or is it something else?  Has Batman worked way under the radar for the entire time, and is the emergence of the Bat-branding a thing that has forced the media to finally acknowledge him as real?  Alfred mentions "exploding penguins" at one point so I'm assuming there was a time when the Penguin attacked Gotham with exploding penguins and Batman saved the day.  Did this all happen outside of the media's coverage?

But there's a Bat-signal?  And Gordon seems pretty chummy with Batman.  So he can't have been *that* underground.  Plus, Suicide Squad shows that Batman has no problem jumping on cars in the middle of active streets and driving his Batmobile all over town.  He's not exactly being overly stealthy.

Then there's the killing.  Is that new?  Has this version of Batman always been okay with casualties in his war on crime?  Even after the "Martha" scene, Bruce kills a handful of people without thinking.  He's in a hurry and against a clock, but he definitely uses lethal force a lot.  Alfred doesn't mention the killing either (at the docks or at the warehouse, where he leaves multiple bodies each) so I have to assume it's not new either.  Did he start killing after the death of Robin?  That's the kind of thing that would make Bruce go dark, I'd assume.  If the killing and branding has been around since the death of Robin, Alfred would probably be used to it by now and might not mention it.

Which brings me to my idea.  The DCEU seems to be content on doing smaller, less connected movies.  Aquaman is standalone.  Patty Jenkins says that Wonder Woman 2 isn't dependent on Justice League.  There's no indication that Shazam will involve anyone else in the DCEU.  The Harley/Joker stuff might involve Batman but doesn't need to.  And there's no Justice League 2 in development.  Whenever Matt Reeves talks about The Batman, he says it stands alone.  With Ben Affleck wavering on playing Batman again.....what if they decided to take the opportunity to answer some of my questions, while also getting a chance to re-cast.

What if The Batman is a prequel?

Cast a younger actor that looks enough like Ben Affleck to make it work.  Or, if Ben Affleck wants to do it, de-age him a bit (either with makeup and hair dye or slight CGI).  Show me what Batman was like before.  Either tell the Bat-Family story or the death of Robin story.  If there's a Nightwing or a Batgirl out there, explain what happened to them and why they don't talk to Bruce anymore.  If he didn't kill before, explain why he's okay with it now.  If the branding isn't new, explain what happened there.  Bring back JK Simmons and show his relationship with Gordon.  Show his relationship with the media. 

If you cast a new actor and it works, then you can bring the new actor into the world with Flashpoint.  If you cast a new actor and it doesn't work, Affleck can take back over as the older Batman.

Batman is crucial to this universe, but we have such a little understanding to how his character works.  Fill in the gaps for us, DC.

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What is Discovery?

In watching the show, it's decidedly not-Trek.  I know it's set in the regular Trek universe, but it feels a lot more like the Abrams universe.  Even with tie-in novels that try to connect this to 1960s Trek, it just doesn't feel like Shatner and Nimoy are out there (even if they aren't working on the Enterprise together, yet).

It's busy for Trek, but that's because it's the first show that's really serialized.  But at the same time, I think it's busy even for a modern show.  Is the show about the war with the Klingons?  Is it about what a good man will do to win a bad war?  Is it about a woman torn between two worlds trying to make up for a very costly mistake she once made?  Is it about a man torn between two worlds and two women he claims to love?  Is it about trying to stay good in a world gone insane?  Or is it about exploring a new way to travel?

None of these things are really Star Trek.  And in a year when the Orville decided to be a modern (less Roddenberry) version of Star Trek: the Next Generation, it feels even less like Star Trek.

The show is good.  But I struggle to really identify what it is or where it's going.  Is it too late to go the anthology route?

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ireactions wrote:

It is impossible to write a sequel to MAN OF STEEL where Superman is charged for the attack on Metropolis. He worked with the army to fight Zod. It's a matter of public record.

He worked with the army, but people sue other people all the time for all kinds of reasons.  People could easily argue that he used excessive force.  Insurance companies would probably go after him as the reason why the buildings were knocked down and lives were lost.  "Superman is liable for the destruction of the Claremont building, as he is clearly shown to be throwing General Zod into that building.  He is not responsible for the destruction of the Bakerfield building, as Zod's heat vision clearly caused that building to be destroyed."

I mean, hell, if Bruce really wanted to make Clark's life a living hell, he could go after him for the destruction of the Wayne Building.

I mean, we're talking about an incident where thousands (a ridiculously low number) of people were killed and billions (trillions?) of dollars in property damage.  It would bankrupt the city and put enormous strain on the nation to rebuild it as quickly as they did (the city looks normal 18 months later).  You don't think there'd be hearings where people would try to hold him financially responsible? 

Then there's the fact that there would need to be an investigation into Zod.  Where did the Kryptonians come from?  Are there more of them?  Are more coming?  The public would have a billion questions, and the only reliable witness is Superman.

It's also silly to think that Superman would be instantly cleared for Man of Steel but quickly roped into a hearing because a handful of people were clearly shot and then burned smile

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Informant wrote:

I see where you're coming from with the Africa storyline, but I disagree. If the movie was about Snyder defending Man of Steel, it wouldn't have served the story well, and it would have looked like a petty response to criticism (even if I kinda think that criticism was petty to begin with).

Well, there's still a lot of him responding.  The movie goes out of its way to talk about how there are no civilians anywhere at night in either Metropolis or Gotham.

In our world, there are hearings on everything.  I mean, look at how involved the Benghazi stuff got with only four people dying.  Having the Senate hearings be about Metropolis would make a ton of sense.  I mean, imagine how many lawsuits Superman would be involved in?  Even if he was completely blame-free, he'd be involved in so much red tape.

I think Lex took advantage of the fact that Bruce was already at the end of his rope, suffering from what appears to be some sort of PTSD, combined with his desire to bring justice. Bruce was broken when Robin died, and he wanted to destroy the bad guys at that point. Lex just redirected Bruce's focus.

They could have made things more personal for Bruce, but that wouldn't have furthered other aspects of Lex's plans, like gaining access to the Kryptonian ship.

But here's the thing....the movie still doesn't give us enough context to understand Bruce Wayne.  Is he suffering from PTSD?  There's a lot of clues, but the movie never comes out and says it.  Alfred seems irritated by his revenge plot, but he seems just as irritated by the fact that Bruce doesn't have a social life.  If Bruce was a completely different person, the movie needed an "Alfred confronts Bruce" (sorta like a similar scene in The Dark Knight Rises) where they could drop some crucial information.

Is the mere presence of Superman enough to drive Batman to criminal insanity?  The movie fills in a lot of the plot holes in Lex's plan, but Bruce is still branding criminals and doesn't seem to care that they're getting killed in prison.  He's still willing to kill people to further his goals.  I don't know if the movie gives us enough to believe that Bruce would turn into Lex. 

In my opinion, it still needed a personal touch.  In The Killing Joke, it took attacking Jim Gordon's daughter to break him.  Killing "Jack" shouldn't been enough to break Bruce.  IMHO.

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Batman v Superman: The Ultimate Edition

You guys are right.  It's way more rounded.  I'd say it's better....there are still problems, but it's better.

Some of the cuts they make are, frankly, insane.  The parts after the Capitol attack are criminal to Superman's character.  The part where he flies off immediately after standing, blank-faced, in a room full of scorched bodies showed that Superman didn't care.  Cutting the scene where he's trying to help but doesn't really have any ability to help shows how powerless he feels.  There are a few other moments of humanity that were lost, and I honestly don't understand what the edits were going for.  The movie is bloated in other ways, and they could've found a better way to cut it.

Where I would've started was the Africa sequence.  The Ultimate Edition fills a lot of plot holes.  It makes it clearer that Lex has been setting things up for the whole time - he knows who Batman is and knows who Superman is.  He knows how to manipulate them, and he's covered all of his bases.  While the theatrical version rushed through a lot, the ultimate edition really lets it sink in.  The Africa sequence feeds into the Capitol sequence and turns the public mood against Superman enough.

The problem is....it's not really enough.  I maintain that the Capitol hearing should've been about Metropolis.  It could've been Zach Snyder's forum to defend Man of Steel through Clark, and it could've shown his humanity.  "I didn't do anything wrong.  I did my best to save as many people as I could." Clark would think.  But he'd go because he won't rest until humanity trusts him.

To me, there's still not enough of a reason for Batman to want to kill him.  To get the weapons, yes.  That's very Batman.  But the problem with the Ultimate Edition making Clark more human is that it, by association, makes Bruce crazier.  Yes, a lot of people died.  But Bruce, Lex Luthor, and Wally are the only ones in the world, it seems, who can't get passed it to see the good that Superman did.  That he continued to do.  Bruce didn't lose anyone.  He lost....Jack?  Some guy?  Not even Lucius Fox?

I'd have lost the Africa sequence and replaced it with something that relates to Bruce specifically.  Metropolis made Bruce suspicious and then you see the public's understanding.  You see the news clips and the commentators debating whether Superman is good or bad.  And then break Batman's mind with something that hits home.  Not just some guy.  Wally didn't mean much to Bruce because he didn't even know about the checks.  Either make Wally a character that Bruce really has cared about the last 18 months or do something drastic.

What if there's an incident where Alfred dies?  I think that's how you do it.  I love this version of Alfred, but replace the Africa sequence with something that causes Alfred to die.  Now Bruce, already suspicious after Metropolis, is alone in his grief.  His father died anew. 

Because, even in 3 hours, we don't get enough of Bruce to understand why he's so angry.  It's not a fit of rage...at times, he's calm and decisive.  He's lucid and he's still caring.  He's not a bad guy....but the movie has him act like the bad guys.  The only problem with Bruce's plan is that Lex's plan is better.  Otherwise, it's the exact same plan.

I know killing Alfred would be a big step, but they kill Jimmy Olson with a lot less regard.  And if not, put him in a coma or something.  Batman would still be alone, and that could put it over the top.

*****

Some other random thoughts:

1. Man I hate Jesse Eisenberg as Lex.  It's a terrible, terrible performance.  Lex is crazy the entire time, and he's still respected for some reason?  I don't understand it at all.  His company would've been taken away from him years before.

2. The dream sequence is cool, but it's a problem for so many reasons.  First, does Barry come back?  It happens in a dream within a dream, but I think we're supposed to accept it as some sort of vision?  And why does Barry say "You were right about him, you were always right about him?"  I thought maybe this would be referenced in Justice League, and some say it was ("Lois is the key!").  But Barry's basically telling Bruce that he's right to want to kill Superman.  I don't understand it.

It becomes an even bigger problem with Justice League.  Bruce does a 180 with his logic in Justice League, saying they 100% have to bring Superman back.  But even after talking about how Superman might not come back as the same person, Bruce doesn't consider that they could be *causing* his nightmare by bringing Superman back.....with an army of parademons...that are already on Earth.

3. Clark was dead.  He wasn't in a "healing coma" or anything.  Why did the dirt float at the end?

4. I still don't buy that so much hope rested on Superman.  Justice League wants us to believe that everything fell apart because Superman died, but he was only active for 18 months.  This wasn't a world that was held together by Superman - there wasn't enough time for us to adjust to it.  There's no indication that he stopped any wars or that he prevented anything catastrophic.  Yeah it was cool to have a Superman, I'm sure Metropolis would be extra sad, and a lot of his more-culty people might've gone off the deep end....but was he really that instrumental?

5. Bruce mentions that they buried an empty box.  Even if the public was told that his body was buried....what's the in-government explanation?  Did they know his secret identity following his death and let him bury the body in Kansas?

I know I've been negative, but I did have a good time.  I think it's a lot better, and like I said, they filled in a lot of plot holes.  I don't remember the "bat brand" getting explained, and they explained that.  They covered a ton of plot holes.

Informant is right...it's the complete movie.  The only problem is....how did they create a movie that had to be 3 hours to make sense?  And when they realized that....did they need to break it into two movies?  Is releasing two movies better than releasing a 3-hour movie? 

(If you want ideas on how to make the movie an hour longer so that it can be two 2-hour movies, I'd add some more Bruce backstory and add some sort of extended Superman rescue sequence - a la the plane rescue in Superman Returns.  This movie desperately needed a Superman heroic moment, and the movie is surprisingly short on them)

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I hadn't thought about the Disney side, but I wonder if that's a brand they even want to cultivate.  I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't shelve a lot of the "FOX" stuff and try and build a softer image for the network.  There's a ton of wiggle room between being not as edgy as FOX used to be and being edgier than ABC.

I just have a feeling that, as soon as the purchase is done, Disney is gonna toss a lot of older/flailing properties in the trash.  This is a potential one, especially if viewership isn't strong and costs are.

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They didn't buy the network, but they did buy a lot of the properties (including the Simpsons, Family Guy, etc).  Fairly certain X-Files would've been in that box.

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Well doesn't Disney own it now?  Wouldn't it be up to them if they want to bring it back or not?

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Informant wrote:

At the end of the day, I feel like the Ultimate Edition is the movie that we're supposed to watch when we go back to rewatch the movie.

Yeah, but that's the thing....it's a special edition.  This isn't the Star Wars special editions - it doesn't override all versions.  If you watch BvS on HBO or HBO Go (where the movie is currently streaming), it's the theatrical version.  I recently moved and got rid of almost my entire video collection - I have subscriptions to the streaming services so I can see just about anything.  Combine that with the fact that I don't have a DVD player, and it doesn't make any sense for me to run out and buy the blu-ray.

If I can stream the ultimate edition on amazon prime, I can do that.  But in today's unplugged environment, asking someone to buy a specific version of the blu-ray so that you can enjoy a movie you've already paid to see in theaters is a little much.

(You guys know how I feel about having to buy tie-in material to understand the primary movie).

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I actually have quite a bit of time this weekend.  Is there a way to stream the Ultimate Edition?  I don't have a blu-ray player, nor (currently) any way to watch a DVD. 

I knew that Superman wasn't on trial for the Metropolis incident, but the way I remember, he was being accused of killing the people in the village.

The problem with the Ultimate Edition is.....is it canon?  Is Justice League a sequel to one or the other?  Or....both?  Are deleted scenes generally regarded as canon?  This is more of a philosophical question than anything.  I suppose the world's love for Superman is canon, since it's said in the movies. 

I also don't doubt, watching either edition, that Superman is heroic and cares about people.  What I don't understand, mostly because it's painted as being controversial in BvS, how everyone in the world has decided, by Justice League, that he was really great.  He was being protested pretty heavily outside the Capitol Building, and this was *after* he'd saved the world from invading aliens.  Was dying during another attack enough to turn the tide completely?

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Informant wrote:

However, I think that you end up sacrificing the central theme of Justice League in favor of creating a movie where a bunch of people just come together because the movie needs them to come together. As it stands now, their coming together is what drives them to be better apart. And if you try to keep that emotional center in a JL movie after having each of them in a solo movie, you'd have to water down the solo movie and create an incomplete character arc for them.

Yeah, I just don't agree with this.  You're saying that nothing happened in any of Flash's/Cyborg's/Aquaman's lives that was worthy of a solo movie?  I just don't see that.

I think you're thinking it's going to be a paint-by-numbers origin movie, but it could be literally anything.  It could be the story of how Arthur found that fishing village and started being their protector.  It could've been a story of Barry growing up with his dad in jail, coming to terms with autism, etc, and then getting these insane powers.

Even if we got stories from all three that *don't involve superheroics*, then we'd know who these folks are.  And if we know who these folks are:

1. More time can be used telling the story because we don't have to be told who they are.
2. All the character moments have more impact.

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Informant wrote:

Then again, the Batgirl movie might be about Barbara joining Bruce as his first and only partner since Robin died. If this happens, it will be a continuation of his arc through his last two movies.

See, I can get into this.  Let's say that Dick was the only Robin and he died....that clears Bruce from any wrongdoing (and the filmmakers from touching on a *very* important part of Bruce's life).  If Batgirl is about a grown-up Barbara Gordon returning to Gotham for the first time since her childhood and working with her father....and meeting Batman, I think that could be cool.  It's sorta Barbara's arc in the Lego Batman movie, when I think about it.

The way I see it, if Dick is alive out there and Bruce didn't call him, Bruce is a terrible person.  If Bruce was trying to kill Superman, and Dick didn't call him, Dick is a terrible person.  And if Alfred didn't call Dick or tell Bruce to call them, then he's a terrible person.  So for the sake of the characters, I'd just prefer for there to be no Dick (Jason Todd was the only Robin) or for him to be dead.  It's the only way to clear everyone of, in my eyes, terrible wrongdoing.

If you're right and the call might've happened offscreen, then the writers are awful for cutting out a part that could've easily been Bruce's entire emotional crux of the movie.

*******

Everything else is sorta in that whole "personal preference" thing.  I get what you're saying about cutting off Flash/Aquaman/Cyborg's stories.  And I can see some merit in using Justice League as a launching pad so that they can hit the ground running in their own movies.  Barry now has the confidence to be the hero he wants to be - his life is starting anew.  Aquaman knows the value of trusting others and working as a team - that will drive him to face his Atlantean roots.

Victor......well, Victor was the worst part of the movie....which wasn't really his fault because it seems like the emotional core of his story might've been lost in edits.  And he's the one who's least likely to get a solo film at this point so there's that.

But I think if you carve out the stories in Justice League and create solo films from them....your story in Justice League can grow exponentially.

FLASH - I actually like a Barry that's a timid version of Clark from Smallville.  He has these powers, but his primary advantage is just being able to move so fast that people can't see him.  So he shows up, saves the day, and no one even knows he's there.  It can play into the fact that he's so fast that he doesn't really feel like he's on the Earth with anyone else.  Maybe it physically affects him (he stays sorta one half/step from the rest of the world so that he can speed up immediately if anyone is in danger).  The only time he slows down is to talk to his dad.

Over the course of the movie, he learns to control the speed, gets the courage to talk to Iris, and through his dad, decides to become a forensic scientist.

In Justice League, now he's his own man.  He's built the suit, he's taken down some criminals and he's made a name for himself.  But now he's standing beside these literal gods, and it knocks him back down.  How can he stand with these guys?  He wants to, but how can he?  He has this doubt because he still doesn't know how to fight.  And maybe, when Superman comes back, there's a scene where Barry thinks, "I'm the Fastest Man Alive.  It's what defines me.  If this guy is as fast as me but can also fly and punch steel and shoot lasers from his eyes, then what am I anymore?)

Instead of his solo movie being an extension of his journey, Justice League becomes an extension of his own movie.

AQUAMAN - You can do a lot of the same stuff.  Arthur starts in the same village, but now an Atlantean scout comes to find him to bring him home.  Maybe tie it to the World Engine in Man of Steel - it's destroying Atlantis.  So he has to face these two sides to himself and his mother and feeling abandoned and all that. And the movie ends with him in command of Atlantis and feeling good about his connection to the Earth.

Now in Justice League, he's not this lone wolf who decides to help.  He's a man torn between two worlds.  He has to fight Steppenwolf to defend Atlantis, but he also has this moment where he realizes that he's about to abandon the people he just spent a movie fighting to earn the trust of.  Can he do that?  Does he even want to?  And you can tie him in with Superman, who's in a similar situation.  He identifies with everyone else, but he has this destiny that seems so alien to him.

*****

The Superman stuff we are never going to agree on smile

*****

I started thinking about Steppenwolf and the villains, and I wonder if, in hindsight, they got the villains backwards.  What if the villain of Man of Steel was Steppenwolf?  You have to change some of the Krypton stuff around, but maybe Jor-El faught against Steppenwolf back on Krypton.  Maybe a war with Darkseid is what destroyed Krypton.  I don't know how you make it tie emotionally but let's say that's how they did it.

Steppenwolf shows up, tries to destroy the world, and Clark stops him.

BvS plays similarly.  Lex re-animates Steppenwolf instead of Zod.  And in the final fight, Clark still uses the Kryptonite spear, either because it's the strongest weapon available to him or because zombie-Steppenwolf was raised with Kryptonian tech. 

So in Justice League....Zod breaks out of the Phantom Zone (maybe there's still a scene in Man of Steel where Zod, having tried something illegal to try and win the war against Darkseid, gets sentenced there) and shows up on Earth to get revenge on Jor-El's son.  Only Jor El's son is already dead.  So he just decides to try and enslave the Earth.

Now now Batman's looking at a situation where there are three evil Supermen and no good one.  Diana maybe could fight one of them, but they're still outnumbered.  Bruce starts the team, but they realize they need Superman back.  They resurrect him, and how Clark can fight Zod.  You get this big payoff from the start of the movies that's been years in the making, and you get bad guys that are truly worth the risk of bringing Clark back.

Plus, with Zod's subcommanders, you get some fun fan stuff.  You get Flash vs. the speed of a Kryptonian.  You get Batman v Superman rematch with Bruce fighting a Kryptonian with no one holding back.  You get Wonder Woman vs. a Kryptonian.  You get Aquaman vs. a Kryptonian.  All these chances for the League to show how powerful they are up against these military-trained Supermen.

Could've been a whole lot of fun.

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I'd be okay with it being David Duchovny as a mentor to younger agents.  I don't really see any point in the show continuing as it is now without Gillian Anderson.  I'm also not sure the story would make sense, as things stand now, with Mulder but no Scully.

I'd end it.

I also think Carter is on record as saying that he's going to end the season on a cliffhanger either way. So look forward to that.

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Okay instead of using quotes, I'm just going to put stuff in bold and hope you get the idea.

On the Avengers model vs. the Justice League model

I still think there's some disagreement here on what I mean.  I completely understand where you're coming from, but you're still talking about "how the Avengers did it" vs. "the Avengers model."  The Avengers model is simply "Do a movie for all the main characters, and then do a movie where they team up."  Man of Steel, in effect, followed the Avengers model.  So did Wonder Woman.  So did Iron Man.  I know you don't actually like Wonder Woman, but they all followed the model of "tell a story about these people."

I agree that Avengers gets bogged down in setting up sequels, but that's not really what I'm talking about.  The First Avenger doing too much to set up the Avengers isn't a problem with the model itself - it's a problem with the movie itself.  If they'd done a "Man of Steel" film for Aquaman/Flash/Cyborg, you'd agree that that's better, right?  Because that's what I'm talking about.  If we knew these characters before we came in, we'd be more invested in what's happening.  Wonder Woman drops Steve Trevor's name without an extended flashback sequence because we know who he is.  The Atlantis/Barry prison/Victor and his dad scenes would've had a lot more weight if we weren't learning who they all were on the fly.

I feel like, because I watch the Flash, I pulled some of my emotion from that for the Henry Allen stuff.  For the Victor stuff....well, I just had to look up Silas Stone's first name so that's one problem.  I also know they cut a lot of the Cyborg stuff out, but you don't think he was in desperate need of a movie?

I said a long time ago, but I think WB could've made a cool movie where they introduced all three new heroes.  Sorta like a grindhouse movie.  Three 30-45 minute adventures setting everyone up.  It'd be super-unconventional, but at least we'd know. Even if they did an in-universe animated movie like "Gotham Knight" (before The Dark Knight was released).  Give us something.

It's like the Atlantis scene - you make a couple different theories on why the air bubble is used.  Imagine if, in Avengers, there had to be an extended sequence in Asgard so that we could understand where Thor was coming from, where he lives part of the time, who Odin is, how he can send Thor to Earth, what Loki and Thor's relationship is.....it'd bog down the movie.  They can explain certain things because we've been to Asgard.  We've seen Thor and Loki, how they grew up, and how they fell apart.  We've met Odin and know about his magic.  You can just catch us up with a line of dialogue.

The Flash

I'd completely forgotten about the Suicide Squad cameo, but looking back, it feels out of place now.  Barry seems, at least to me, like early Clark on Smallville.  The convenience store robbery seems more his style (and he was able to do that without his clothes burning off).  I rewatched the cameo, and it feels like a post-Justice League Barry.  Someone who's proved himself and has more confidence.

I know there's a difference between fighting a regular guy with a boomerang and alien monsters, but Barry (in Justice League) really flips out at the idea of even being on-location for the fight with the parademons.  He doesn't seem like the kind of guy who's been a hero long enough that he does quippy one-liners when he's with Digger Harkness. 

Again, if we'd had a Flash movie before, we'd know more about his character big_smile

Steppenwolf

He's not as bad as everyone is saying, but he was completely one-dimensional villain.  Another gray CGI person with no personality.  The only thing he brought to the table was that he was good enough to fight the heroes on his own.

This is another problem with having to spend so much time introducing characters - your villains suffer.  I don't even know if the movie would've had time for a character with any sort of backstory.

I don't think the movie was necessarily hurt by a bad villain (I like tons of movies without charismatic or interesting villains) because he was simply a catalyst to get these guys to work together....so, in that sense, he "fit the story" - but I can't imagine you're actually saying that Steppenwolf is a good villain by any means.

Bat-Family

The problem with "it might've happened off screen" is a huge problem for this character.  This is Bruce's family.  We got to meet Aquaman's family and Barry's family and Victor's family.  A huge part of this movie is about how Diana closed herself off because she lost her family.  A huge part of her story is about how desperate she is to get that back.  Superman is brought back because he has connections to other people.

If Dick Grayson is alive, Bruce has to make that call on screen.  Commissioner Gordon is in this movie.  Bruce has to call the man's daughter, if she's alive, and tell her that the end could be coming.  Same with Tim Drake, Cassandra Cain...all of them.  Again, Bruce goes on a suicide mission in this movie.  He expects to die.  Calling his family, on screen, is *crucial* to rounding out his character.

There's a moment in Max Landis' retelling of the Death and Return of Superman (I know he's got his own problems now and is probably a garbage human but get passed it for this point) where Bruce is about to go on a suicide mission, and Dick realizes that his father is about to die.  Dick swoops in to save Bruce before he does something stupid, fighting Bruce to make sure that he doesn't get himself killed.  When Dick looks down and says...."Dad....", it makes me tear up every time.  Imagine if Bruce had called Dick as he was driving toward certain death.  It would've added emotional weight.

No one called Bruce when he was fighting the darkness in BvS.  Bruce doesn't call anyone when he's confident he's about to die.  If there's a surviving Bat-Family, they're too torn apart to ever come back together and don't need to be mentioned again.  It's going to do irreparable damage to the characters.

On BvS Revisionist History

Its hard to really explain because I think the movie wants to treat BvS like it happened....the way you saw it.  The only problem is that it didn't happen that way for me.  Bruce keeps talking like Superman was a beacon for hope, but he was literally on trial for murdering civilians.  He was hated by many for what happened in Metropolis.  Bruce literally tried to murder him in the previous movie.

Superman's heroism and sacrifice might've been what eventually saved Batman, but it wasn't Superman's "beacon" that brought him out of the darkness - it was a coincidence.

I think BvS did revisionist history too.  We've talked for pages about how I can't imagine that Superman did enough to be universally loved in Metropolis after what happened at the end of Man of Steel.  it seems crazy to me that he'd have a statue that wasn't constantly being protested at.

Justice League wanted us to think that Superman was a loving, charismatic hero who was universally beloved when, on screen, he should, at the very least, be a very controversial figure who *tons* of people would be happy was dead.

Zack Snyder, at least to me, is showing me one thing and telling me another.

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True.  I think about it like it's a standard job.  I don't consider things like Stephen Amell working on Ninja Turtles or anything.  But I imagine the "Arrowverse" show idea could give the actors whatever freedom they want.  If Stephen Amell was going to be the new Green Lantern or something, Oliver could not show up on the show for months and he could fit in his 20 episodes in some other way.  You could have long stretches where Grant Gustin carries the show while everyone is off filming movies, and then he's relieved by Melissa Benoist.

It's a crazy format, but it could work.  The 4-show, 13-episode, year-round format probably works the best.

Jan-Mar - Arrow
Apr-Jun - Flash
Jul-Sept - Supergirl
Oct-Dec - Legends

You could still sign people to 20+ episode contracts and it'd free up Gustin/Amell/Benoist for 7+ guest appearances on the other shows.  If it works out, you get a mini-crossover event.

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Discovery returned last night.  Pretty exciting episode if you ask me.

But people were very upset about the (SPOILER) of (SPOILER).

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It's pretty fun being an outsider in the X-Files fandom.  I just sorta watch the "My Struggle" episodes with a child-like "Okay! I guess this is happening now!" way.  Jeffrey Spender shows up and I think "Oh man, I thought he died at some point.  Maybe I'll look that up on the X-Files wiki".  And so I do that and Jeffrey Spender's page is convoluted and it looks like he did die but then was horribly scarred but now is back to normal and I just go "Okay, I guess this is happening now!"

Cigarette Smoking Man is back and seems alive and healthy and has a new name now and I thought he'd died like five times before but I just smile and go "Okay, I guess this is happening now!"

I watched My Struggle III having not seen a good chunk of the beginning of the series, a good chunk of the end of the series, and having forgotten huge blocks of the time when I watched the show religiously.  I watched Season 10 but couldn't remember what the cliffhanger was.  I just smiled like Sammy Jankis and went with the flow.

There are no continuity errors when I watch the X-Files because I don't remember enough and I'm not invested enough to worry about what's a continuity error.  It ends up making the show a lot more watchable.

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I wonder how much the 4-part crossover really screwed with everything.  But I sorta agree with the idea of limiting the number of superhero shows that run at any certain time.  I like TF's idea of cycling them throughout the year - you could even drop each show down to 13 episodes and run them one at a time with no breaks on one specific night/time.

I mean, heck, what if they got really crazy and did one show that ran 52 episodes a year called "Arrowverse" - sign each actor to a 20-something episode commitment and do it Justice League Unlimited style.  One episode, it's Barry and Cisco and Diggle.  One episode it's Black Canary and Killer Frost and Supergirl.  One episode it's Green Arrow and White Canary and Martian Manhunter.  Could be cool.

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I mean, maybe.  But if you're going to go with the Avengers "model" vs. the Justice League one*, I'd rather have solo movies for everyone before they meet.  Every scene could've had more meaning if we understood where people were coming from.  The Mera/Arthur scene could've been better if we knew anything about them.  Heck, the Steppenwolf/Atlanteans fight might've meant as much as the Steppenwolf/Amazons fight if we had any idea who those guys were (or what their power level was).  The Barry/Henry scene would've had more value if we were catching up with them (instead of meeting them both).

I mean, even small stuff....when Barry trips running, it'd either be a huge shock ("BARRY NEVER TRIPS, HE MUST BE TERRIFIED") or something we're used to ("Damn!  Just like his fight against the Reverse Flash").  Arthur getting the Trident.  Victor taking command of the Tank.  These could've all been cooler moments if we had any context for what we're getting.

Granted, this could all still happen....just, in reverse.  So maybe Barry *doesn't* trip against Reverse Flash because he's already fought against frickin' Superman.  But if we're talking about elevating Justice League, I think I'd rather know these characters going in.

* Not talking about quality of Marvel or DC....just the way their leads were brought together.  If we're being fair, Barry/Arthur/Victor are the equivalent of Hawkeye/Black Widow/Coulson/Fury in Justice League - we know them, but they're side characters more than stars.  Maybe that's how it should be for the first-ever Justice League movie (the Trinity is the stars and the others are supporting), but that's how it felt to me.

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Was Barry supposed to be on the autism spectrum?  I couldn't tell if they were going for that or him just being awkward.

I think the characters were good, but since these characters were just being introduced, I think they fell behind because we didn't get a full picture of them.  We got some parent drama with all three new characters, but it wasn't half what we knew about Clark or Diana because we got full movies with them.  You felt more when Diana mentioned Steve Trevor than you did when Arthur was talking about his mother because we have no idea what happened there.  We knew Steve Trevor and cared when he died.

So while we know Diana, we only sorta know Barry/Arthur/Victor.  I feel like we got the clearest picture of Barry.  I don't know if we really know much about Arthur except that he has a good time, he likes saying "my man", and that he doesn't feel like he belongs in Atlantis.  I know we'll get more of him in Aquaman, but if we're talking about *this movie*, then I still say that the three new characters were "guest stars" as opposed to stars

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Informant wrote:

I was more distracted by Cavill's accent just after he was resurrected.

Yeah, I meant to comment on that.  What was up with that?

(Although I think that fight is the highlight for me.  Especially the Flash/Superman stuff).

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Informant wrote:

I've seen Justice League.


I have thoughts.


But you'll have to sit through seventeen other half-assed posts that build up to my underwhelming comments about my thoughts... nah, I'm just joking. My posts aren't Marvel movies. But I don't have time to type them all now, so I will be back later.

Sounds like you want to talk to me about the Avengers' initiative.

Or should we just form a league of our own?

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Star Wars has never been about mysteries, and I think the bigger sin is setting up the mysteries at all.  I think Rian Johnson agreed with that, and he's stated as much.  He said if Star Wars is going to survive, it has to become something more than what it was.

The Last Jedi is divisive because it's a hard reset to what JJ Abrams did.  Which is why it's going to be such a problem when JJ comes back.

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Something I've been thinking about since I saw the movie a second time?  Does Rian Johnson hate the Force Awakens?  I feel like he took a lot of stuff from that movie and either openly made fun of it or snuffed it out.  Is it pretty consistent that people that liked TFA didn't like TLJ and vice versa?

Things I've noticed:

The Rey/Luke scene:
TFA - Treated like a huge deal/cliffhanger.
TLJ - Treated like a joke.  Luke throws the lightsaber away and walks off.

Anakin's Lightsaber
TFA -This is the key.  Why is it back after so long?  How did it get here?  Now that Luke has it, what will happen?!?
TLJ - Luke doesn't care about it.  Ends up destroyed.

Kylo Ren's Costume:
TFA - "Here's your new Vader!"
TLJ - Treated like a joke.  Snoke specifically says that the helmet and the costume is dumb, and it seems like Kylo did it on his own because he thought it looked cool.  Kylo destroys the helmet and never wears it again.

Rey's Parents:
TFA - A huge mystery.  Maybe *the* mystery of the entire new trilogy.
TLJ - They were no one.  Doesn't matter.

Maz:
TFA - This character knows everything.  Knows everyone.  She holds all the secrets if you know how to ask.
TLJ - She doesn't have time for this movie.  Get your deus ex machina somewhere else.

Hux:
TFA - Here's your new Tarkin.
TLJ - Except he's a total idiot.

Phasma:
TFA - She's a badass.  You'll see.
TLJ - Not really.  Maybe dead?

Snoke:
TFA - This dude is the ultimate evil.  Very mysterious.  Fear him.
TLJ - Wears a dumb-looking gold robe.  Cut in half.  He doesn't matter.

Rey:
TFA - Everyone loves Rey, and she's great at everything.  Always rescues herself.
TLJ - Luke wants nothing to do with her.  Suspects she might be evil.  She struggles with her training.  Has to be rescued by Kylo in the Throne Room.

Finn and Poe:
TFA - Finn is an insider with so much knowledge of the First Order.  Can use that to take them down, and Poe is the only guy daring enough to help him do it.
TLJ - Finn's plan is ridiculous and doesn't work at all.  Nearly gets everyone killed.  Poe's plans are reckless and gets tons of people killed.

Nostalgia:
TFA - Star Wars is the best!  Here's a reference!  And another!  Look, a bigger Death Star!  The Millennium Falcon!  Anakin's Lightsaber!
TLJ - "Let the past die.  Kill it if you have to."