3,181 (edited by QuinnSlidr 2024-11-04 10:57:31)

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Slider_Quinn21 wrote:

Happy to jump in here.

And as far as valid reasons to vote for Trump, I still think a number of people are voting for the lives they had in 2016-2019 (they forget about 2020 or group it in with Biden's years).  If you don't pay attention to politics or watch cable news, it's easy to forget or not care about who's president.  It's easy to miss the things that Trump says or does.  I'm sure plenty of people have missed the violent rhetoric and are simply thinking "I liked my life better when he was president"

And while that's ignorant and naive, I do think it's valid.

Naaahhhh. These are Trumpers (example below). This is what Trumpers are and what they vote for, which is what makes their vote invalid.

They are all the mean and the bad in this country, basically. And President Biden was right calling them garbage.

Sorry, Slider_Quinn21. I don't think your assessment is accurate. They are well aware of Trump's vile and vulgar comments. They celebrate it because that's who they are. They believe that woke-ism is an affront on their right to be mean and racist. So now, they *are* that by default. Trump enables them. And Trump hates who they hate, so they vote for him because of it. I don't buy for one second that they are unaware of everything he has done. Trump is who they are, and that's why he attracts their votes.

From Reddit:


https://i.postimg.cc/CxpG4jjQ/image.png

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Yeah, I just can't lump in 70 million people to be like that guy.  I refuse to do to them what they've done to you/us.  When you de-humanize people, it becomes okay to eliminate them.  I don't want Trump voters to die, and I don't think you do either.  We gotta keep our eyes on who the real enemy is, and we can defeat him as soon as tomorrow.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

The reality is that people can have one set of values on a personal and individual basis and a completely different set of values at the ballot box. An essay I wrote awhile back about someone:

Many years ago, I interviewed an actor who was on a show I liked. This actor would, a few years after our interview, post a lot of Trump-supportive content on his social media. Following Charlottesville with neo-Nazis marching, this actor made a number of posts sharing (false) claims that the Nazi-presence and rhetoric had been overblown or misrepresented. This made me very angry.

I said nothing (well, outside of private conversations, I said nothing). I didn't comment on it in the fan community. I ceased contact and would check in on this actor from time to time, if only as a study of how someone could be radicalized.

This actor eventually scrubbed his social media of all pro-Trump material while leaving behind a few pre-2015, Trump-mocking comments regarding Trump's business practices. Because this actor took down his Trump-support and ceased voicing any support of Trump at all, I'm not willing to name him in this post.

I should note: I don't believe that anyone had to vote for Hillary Clinton in 2016 or Joe Biden in 2020 to make the minimum grade as a decent human being. People I respect voted third party or wrote in names because they didn't support Clinton, or because they believed in term limits when it came to Biden, or for other reasons entirely.

However, I believe that the act of voting for Donald Trump was and is evil.

I felt tremendous confusion when this actor expressed support for Trump's 2016 campaign of obvious racism, bigotry, white supremacy and white privilege. This actor had been so generous to me: a lengthy phone conversation, reviewing his quotes and offering clarifications and corrections, patient explanations of his process and work, indulgently sharing memories of times that were challenging and difficult.

He did all this for me, and I am a person of colour. I am an Asian man and I have a Muslim name (which is incredibly weird because my family has no Muslims and is Buddhist on one side and Mennonite on the other). Someone supporting a racist political party that encourages violence against anyone who isn't Caucasian -- that's not something I can ignore morally or in terms of personal safety.

Why did a Trump supporter do so much for an Asian man with a Muslim name? I had conversations with others and received a number of theories.

From my sister:
"You're not Asian enough for someone to be racist to you. Do you hear yourself on the phone? You sound white."

From my father:
"You're a banana, son. Yellow on the outside, white on the inside and people react to you like you're white. Also, as Chinese people go, you're very pale. You get white privilege." 

From my niece:
"That actor might be nice to you, but he wouldn't ever want people of colour to have any more rights -- or actual rights -- and he wants to keep your lack of privilege where it is and his white privilege where it is and he'll always vote for whatever gives white people more power to be racist."

From an intern in the social justice office:
"The dude was nice to you because he wanted to answer fan questions about his work and not have to talk about it anymore. You were someone he could use."

This twisted me inside for a long time. Eventually, I simply had to bar it from my mind. But in recent days, I've had to think about it, and I've revisited the theories that my friends and family offered me. I have then rejected these theories. I know in my heart (if not for a fact) that they are all wrong.

I have decided that he was sincerely nice to me, a person of colour, in a genuine and heartfelt way and he voted for and supported a white supremacist bigot. Both are true.

Why did he vote for Donald Trump and minimize the presence of Nazis the way Informant, a former poster here, was constantly lying and claiming there where no neo-Nazis even when they were roaring, "You will not replace us"?

A vote for Trump could be, as Grizzlor put it, tribalism, but neo-Nazi denialism goes beyond that.

I'm prepared to suggest that this actor, like Kelsey Grammer, suffered something in his life that shook him and damaged him and his sense of right and wrong when it came to the specific sphere of politics. There are actually numerous areas in his life where he may have experienced something disturbing and traumatic for which he deserves, like any person, sympathy and understanding.

Without going into detail, there was a very early setback in his education that deprived him of credentials he needed in the field of acting (don't bother trying to look this up, you won't find it). This may have caused a sense of failure and may have made it harder than it should have been to build his career, although he did build it. There may have been distress with the mother of his children not being in his life or his children's lives. I don't know that these were life-altering traumas for him. They may have been merely setbacks, but they probably weren't non-serious issues.

And then there was this actor's biggest job. The pinnacle of his career. He'd acted in small roles and acted in medium-sized roles and acting had become his full time job. Then came a role that would bring him to his largest audience yet. This role, while potentially career-defining, also came with a sense of humiliation: the actor was hired to effectively replace and imitate a different performer.

The original performer in this role was a big name who had played the character for years, but suddenly left the role. This actor I interviewed was the successor and his new job involved mimicking the original performer's performance. (I guess this gives it away)

This job must have come with the constant sense of being second-chosen, second-best, least-wanted, least-remembered, least-respected. There was the sense that the highest amount of regard for his career was when he performed in the shadow of someone else, copying someone else's work rather than offering something uniquely his own. This is an extremely caustic and mocking interpretation, and it is absolutely not how I see this person or his life or his work.

I consider this actor to a more skillful, detailed, thoughtful and talented than his predecessor, and truly a master thespian. I was impressed by how the actor's work was not imitation, but tribute where mimicry of the previous performer was just one facet of a very complex performance. And this actor could have built a successful career beyond this big role. He had the talent and physical appeal to do so, but he decided to end his acting career a short time after this job due to the need to spend more time with his family.

He left acting and found success in a different field. As a result, his former acting career was then defined by this one part where people saw him as a stand-in for somebody else; a scab, a stand-in, a substitute.

I have never and will never see him as a substitute for anybody. But it is how many others viewed him and viewed his life and viewed his work. That had to have affected him, especially when he was told by cruel fans in public that his failure to live up to his predecessor was why the show was cancelled.

These are not easy experiences.

As Dr. Frasier Crane might say: someone who experiences a sense of disenfranchisement, abandonment -- and who is treated as a shabby substitute -- could experience dire feelings of inadequacy, inferiority, weakness, and frustration that he is viewed as a second-rate copy rather than someone with his own set of experiences and skills and approach to his profession and craft.

Someone might go through this and then in their politics feel a desire for control, dominance, privilege, elevation, superiority, vindication and obedience, and this might be reflected in their voting for and supporting fascist authoritarianism and entitlement.

Someone could experience all these things and cast that vote... but still retain the ability to dismiss race and ethnicity on a personal level (like when interacting with a fan) while making racist and white supremacist choices on a political level.

One does not negate the other. Being kind to me does not erase the fact that this person cast a ballot for racism, fascism and authoritarianism. At the same time, casting that ballot did not erase the fact that this person was extremely generous to me on a personal and psychological level and, in their kindness to me, was also being kind to every other fan of his work.

This person has ceased supporting Donald Trump publicly. This means that their politics today are now a private affair as they are no longer voicing any opinion of it at all and have removed their previous opinions from their platform. For this reason, I will not name this actor nor will I associate this person with the cause from which he severed his public (if not private) allegiance. I have said nothing about this online for the past seven years because I did not want to diminish this person's standing or what he had shared with fans.

As someone who has voted for different parties at different times, I can say that there are votes for parties that I regret casting. I have made votes that, upon reflection, I consider to have been acts of evil on my part. I wouldn't want to be defined by a vote that I now regret, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

These are important subjects to discuss, and I don't feel silence serves anyone. However, I make the request that if we talk about this more, we avoid using this person's name as search engine optimization can cause associations that this person clearly no longer wants to maintain... and as this person never committed any actual crimes (none that I'm aware of, anyway), he has the right to change, to chart a new course, and to move on.

**

There are dark days ahead of you. You're all going going to be tested. And I'm so sorry for how hard it will all be.

But... I have faith in you.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

That was very insightful - thank you for posting it! smile

******

I forgot to share a story from the weekend.  The area that I live in is trending blue but is still pretty red.  There's a number of Trump signs that I glare at angrily as I drive by.  A number of homes in my neighborhood have Trump signs in their front yards, and I make sure to not look directly at their houses as I walk by with or without my children.  I judge them, and I don't feel good about that.  They are my neighbors, after all.

On Saturday, I was out with my youngest daugher.  She'd been good all week, and I was taking her to the park and out to lunch as a reward.  In between the park and lunch, I had to take some items to the UPS store to return them to their respective stores.  As I pulled up, I noticed a young teenager (my guess is 13 but as I've gotten older, teenagers are looking younger and younger so I suppose he could've been as old as 16 or 17) taking boxes into the store with his mother.  He was wearing a red hat.

Now despite living in a fairly red area, I've only seen two MAGA hats in the wild.  One was at a local nursery (for plants, not children).  He was friendly enough as he saw me with my family, but I did not smile back at him.  We passed each other a couple times in the rows of plants, and I exchanged no pleasantries with him.  He was making a political statement and I gave him no reaction.

This was different.  He's a kid.  Is this a kid who likes Donald Trump enough to want a hat?  Do his parents love Trump enough to get their kid a hat?  Or they let their kid wear that hat?  Do they feel comfortable enough letting their child wear a hat for a felon?  Knowing that they're opening up their kid to political thoughts from both sides?  The man at the nursery that was possibly looking for reactions from both sides was one thing, but this was a kid.

I walked in with my daughter holding my items.  He came in right behind me, and I could see from my periphery that he was, again, holding a stack of boxes in his hands.  As a good Texan boy, I knew it was good manners to hold open the door for him.  He needed my help, and it was my duty to help.  And if he hadn't been wearing that hat, I would have happily done it with a friendly Texan smile.

But he was wearing the hat.  And so, for a moment, I thought about ignoring him and letting him figure out a way into the door.  I didn't see him in my direct vision, after all, and could've easily gotten away with saying that I hadn't seen him.  And if I hadn't been there, he would've had to have opened the door by himself anyway.  And I was holding my own items and my daughter's hand.  I wasn't exactly free.

But I opened it.  I thought about how little I wanted to make a scene in front of my daughter who has no idea who Trump is or what MAGA is or why her dad was arguing with some kid.  I opened the door, he thanked me, and I said nothing.  I didn't look at him or smile.  I did the bare minimum.

And I hated feeling that way.  Again, this kid can't vote, and I have no idea what led him to wear that hat.  Maybe his whole family is conservative and he doesn't know the terrible things that Trump has done or said.  One of the biggest news from the weekend was young voters discovering the Access Hollywood tape and playing it on TikTok for each other.  If he was 13, he would've been 9 when Trump left office.  He might have no idea what January 6th was about any more than I knew about the Oklahoma City bombing when I was around that age.

Maybe he is a little Christian nationalist, white supremacist, future Nazi, but so could any of the kids I passed that day that weren't wearing red hats.  I didn't judge any of them because their clothing gave me no indication of their political beliefs.

And that's what I hate about Trump the most.  The guy is a criminal and a monster and if he wins tomorrow, he will make the world less safe for myself and my kids.  I desperately want him to lose tomorrow so I can stop worrying about this stupid election like I have for the last year+.  But what I hate about him the most is how much he's making me look down upon my neighbors, fellow Texans, and fellow Americans.  I don't want to hate people for their political beliefs.  I don't want to hate some kid because he's wearing a hat.  I want to be able to open a door and help someone and not avoid eye contact.

And, God willing, tomorrow we can put his stupid crusade to rest.  I know there will be battles ahead, but tomorrow is the day we can defiantly scream "NO" into the face of fascism and prepare to defend that decision until Kamala Harris can take office.

I'm terrified of tomorrow, but I'm hopeful.  And I'm ready.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

I think your account is an example of how you treat someone with welcome and consideration on a personal level but are completely opposed to them on a political level.

I do not think we will be getting results until Thursday or Friday. But if I am wrong, I owe you a trip to the Alamo Drafthouse.

3,186 (edited by QuinnSlidr 2024-11-04 21:33:39)

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Slider_Quinn21 wrote:

Yeah, I just can't lump in 70 million people to be like that guy.  I refuse to do to them what they've done to you/us.  When you de-humanize people, it becomes okay to eliminate them.  I don't want Trump voters to die, and I don't think you do either.  We gotta keep our eyes on who the real enemy is, and we can defeat him as soon as tomorrow.

I'm well aware that Trumpers are not all the same. I'm keep them at arm's length. Because I can't stand the circular arguments and less than intelligent assessments of what's going on in the world. Because all they watch is FOX News. I still have friends who are Trumpers. We just can't talk politics because it will devolve very quickly. Granted, these friends are very few in number and I've known them a long time before this Trumper crap started in 2016.

But, sadly, in every Trumper I have come across I see the same similar patterns of belief, self destructive and violent behavior and tendencies. I've come across many and it isn't an isolated incident.

If they're nice, I'll let it slide and treat them the same way. But if they're an a-hole, then we have a problem.

I just don't have the time or desire to deal with people who have a disposition where they think they know everything, and have no desire to admit that they are wrong if presented with the real facts and evidence proving them wrong.

I really hope with this election, we also get a democratic House along with the Senate so we can do some really good work. I'm just really, really tired of the last 9 years. And I'm ready to turn the page.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

ireactions wrote:

I do not think we will be getting results until Thursday or Friday. But if I am wrong, I owe you a trip to the Alamo Drafthouse.

I guess it depends, right?  In 2020, we had the red mirages in all the swing states because a vast majority of mail-in ballots in those states were Democratic.  This year, as republicans love to point out, it's still much more democratic but the gaps have closed.  That means either less Democrats are voting in total (unlikely), more Republicans are voting in total (unlikely), more of both are voting (unlikely), or that more Democrats and less Republicans will be voting on Election Day (the consensus opinion).

And we know some of the stats to at least have an idea of who's going to get more of the mail-in ballots.  If they've finished counting the Election Day votes in Pennsylvania and she's winning?  Then she's winning big.  Even if they finished counting and he's only up a little, she's probably winning big (or at least big enough to call even before a lot of those votes are actually counted).

And I think there will be signs.  Female turnout.  Minority turnout.  White turnout.  There are people that are going to be able to see things that most people can't, and I think we're going to know pretty early whether the polls were right and it's going to take days or if the polls were wrong (in either direction) and it'll just drag out until people feel comfortable officially calling it.  I could be wrong, but I feel like we felt pretty good the next day that Biden was going to win.

I'm hoping and praying for a safe day with no violence.

QuinnSlidr wrote:

I just don't have the time or desire to deal with people who have a disposition where they think they know everything, and have no desire to admit that they are wrong if presented with the real facts and evidence proving them wrong..

I'm right there with you.

3,188

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

I have seen valid sources attribute this information from the Harris campaign....

Tuesday Night: Expect near full results from Georgia, North Carolina, Michigan, Virginia, Florida, Ohio, Colorado.  Partial Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, Arizona.

Wednesday Morning: Most all Wisconsin, additional Pennsylvania, Michigan.

Later Wednesday (Thursday?): additional Pennsylvania, Arizona, Nevada, etc.

3,189 (edited by Grizzlor 2024-11-05 10:29:23)

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Most of the poll aggregators have Harris up in the EC, granted these people are a waste of bandwidth as their methods are about as believable as a magic trick.  Senate polling seems like GOP is looking at a few pickups, but the House is very likely to shift back to blue control.

The race has not substantively changed in almost two months, as the money and time spent on polling has been largely wasted, especially on the ones who poll non-stop.  Absolutely no point in doing this.  However, these polls in Iowa, Kansas, Nebraska that I have mentioned, those were taken months apart, they show real movement towards Democrats. 

Harris Campaign feels late deciders are breaking their way, using data which reportedly does support this.  Trump and his surrogates have had a TERRIBLE close.  Between the insults and bizarre comments, it's just been dark and belligerent. 

It's difficult for the polling to get around the significant Trumper non-response bias.  i.e. Trumpers especially older ones are less likely to speak to pollsters, which will continue to skewer the results.  But that's also part of the margin of error.  My personal feeling is that Trump remains capped on support, even though I expect completely insane turnout in rural America for him, which could be an issue in PA.  Women are going gangbusters for Harris, no doubt about that.  I give Kamala the better odds, and the late deciders, but who knows if that is enough?  Again, Biden chased a lot of people off.

PS: However this goes, hats off to Kamala Harris, Tim Walz, and that entire team.  To run a major Presidential campaign in just over 100 days is completely historic, it's never been done before in modern history.  It's difficult to find much to critique on their side.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

My keys:

- Can Trump get enough of his low-propensity voters to the polls with no ground game?
- How many pro-Harris women in a Trump household will actually vote for Harris?  Have Democrats convinced them to keep their vote a secret, or have conservatives convinced them to vote with their husbands?
- How are black / Latino men going to vote?  Do they go back to Harris or go to Trump?  And at what rate?

3,191 (edited by QuinnSlidr 2024-11-05 12:41:56)

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Slider_Quinn21 wrote:

My keys:

- Can Trump get enough of his low-propensity voters to the polls with no ground game?
- How many pro-Harris women in a Trump household will actually vote for Harris?  Have Democrats convinced them to keep their vote a secret, or have conservatives convinced them to vote with their husbands?
- How are black / Latino men going to vote?  Do they go back to Harris or go to Trump?  And at what rate?

1. His crowd size continues to dwindle and his latest, last stop in North Carolina proved to be the worst one yet, so I doubt it.

2. When women are feeling strongly about an issue, and they are mad about something like Roe v. Wade, I am willing to bet that it is closer to 15% of republicans who are voting for Harris. I say this because it has been reported on MSNBC with the last and final PBS News/NPR/Marist election poll that 8% of republicans are voting for Harris, up from 3% a month ago, and double the number of Democrats who say they will back Trump. Because these polling places only poll a certain number of voters, it is likely that it is much more. Because women are pissed off about Roe v. Wade, and this is going to be the X factor this election. As evidenced by total votes here: (https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2024-e … early-vote) 53% of women compared to 44% of men, they are turning out in droves to vote for Kamala Harris and bring Roe v. Wade back to be codified into the U.S. Constitution. They will, come hell or high water, find a way to vote.

3. With Trump's attacking of Puerto Ricans and calling them garbage, they are all upset. And rightfully so. That means that they are very likely voting for Harris too. They've said so. Interviews with them have been showing how angry they are, and this doesn't vary from person to person.

4. Guaranteed, with Trump's continued attacks on anyone that doesn't have "beautiful, beautiful white skin" like he does (that's an actual quote he said at a rally just a couple days ago), anyone who is of black or latino ancestry will very likely be voting for Harris. I think it will be the outliers of this demographic who are going to be voting Trump, sadly.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

I hope you're right.  It'll be impossible to know until later, but I'd be willing to bet that Trump can't get all the voters he needs to show up.  I also think that polls probably overstated his support with Republican women and minority men, but again we won't know.

On Trump's crowd sizes....let's not read too much into that.  There's no correlation between going to rallies and voting.  Trump had huge rallies in 2020 and lost.  Being enthusiastic about sitting in some arena until 1am listening to the same stories they've heard a thousand times and being enthusiastic about voting is very different.  I think what's happened is that Trump's rallies have lost their novelty value with a lot of people.  But I don't necessarily think people are less enthusiastic to vote for him.  I could be wrong and it doesn't matter what I think because we'll know soon enough.

But you're still right that low propensity voters are less likely to vote.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Slider_Quinn21 wrote:

I hope you're right.  It'll be impossible to know until later, but I'd be willing to bet that Trump can't get all the voters he needs to show up.  I also think that polls probably overstated his support with Republican women and minority men, but again we won't know.

On Trump's crowd sizes....let's not read too much into that.  There's no correlation between going to rallies and voting.  Trump had huge rallies in 2020 and lost.  Being enthusiastic about sitting in some arena until 1am listening to the same stories they've heard a thousand times and being enthusiastic about voting is very different.  I think what's happened is that Trump's rallies have lost their novelty value with a lot of people.  But I don't necessarily think people are less enthusiastic to vote for him.  I could be wrong and it doesn't matter what I think because we'll know soon enough.

But you're still right that low propensity voters are less likely to vote.


I am providing this here for entertainment purposes only...

This is a very interesting one...a psychic went on FOX News and provides a very bad tarot card reading for Trump...just listen to the terror in her voice as she realizes what it means...

https://www.reddit.com/r/TrumpIsWeird/c … for_trump/

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Hahaha.  Awesome.

3,195

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS5ljjC70ews0P3S8-ICROR3hi3g4Js-ZUZKQ&s

3,196 (edited by QuinnSlidr 2024-11-05 15:14:50)

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Grizzlor wrote:

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS5ljjC70ews0P3S8-ICROR3hi3g4Js-ZUZKQ&s

A great, pointed reference to season 2's Into the Mystic, Grizzlor.

Perfect!

3,197 (edited by Grizzlor 2024-11-05 18:23:23)

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Really nothing of what I'd consider substantial to know so far as the 7PM states close.  MAGA Twitter is absolutely going nuts about MEN voting.  They must know Trump is being trounced by female voters.  Exit polls out of Georgia not great for Kamala.  Philly turnout is through the roof, Kamala has to love that in PA.  Suburban Indianapolis showing weaker Trump margins.  Telling.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

I'm scared. But...

Simon Rosenberg wrote:

Friends, on this Election Day, 2024, I am optimistic we will win. Late deciders have broken to us. The campaign has seen it in their data, and we’ve seen it both in public polling and in the early vote. We are outworking them. Our ads have reached more people. Our field operations have reached more people. Our extraordinary campaign has reached more people, and will doing so today, all day. We are closing strong and winning. They are closing as ugly as it gets and losing.

https://www.hopiumchronicles.com/p/elec … ay-to-work

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

ireactions wrote:

I'm scared. But...

Simon Rosenberg wrote:

Friends, on this Election Day, 2024, I am optimistic we will win. Late deciders have broken to us. The campaign has seen it in their data, and we’ve seen it both in public polling and in the early vote. We are outworking them. Our ads have reached more people. Our field operations have reached more people. Our extraordinary campaign has reached more people, and will doing so today, all day. We are closing strong and winning. They are closing as ugly as it gets and losing.

https://www.hopiumchronicles.com/p/elec … ay-to-work

I'm scared too, ireactions. I really hate seeing Trump's face winning first.

sad  sad  sad  sad  sad

3,200

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

She's getting leveled in Florida, and Georgia is going to be very tough.  North Carolina still even.  Exit polling for Harris was well behind Biden nationally with Latinos, particularly men.  Not great for the sun belt.  Nevada numbers though in range.

3,201 (edited by Slider_Quinn21 2024-11-05 19:45:45)

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Gonna have to hope that the polls that closed late are huge for her in Georgia.  North Carolina doesn't look as bad but not great, obviously.

Looks like we might be hoping for 270-268.  I was hoping for a bigger win than this, but might be time to adjust hopes to *any* win.

3,202

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

I'm not a huge fan of exit polls, but CNN in Georgia was a massive independent shift for Trump, and NBC exit with indies is +6 for Trump in Pennsylvania.  Trump numbers are up in rural counties pretty much everywhere.  Biden approval terrible everywhere.  Virginia way too tight, so far.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Vote counts are gradual. None of these non-results mean anything right now. Don't mistake mirages for results.
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2024-e … rcna175475

(He said fearfully.)

3,204

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

The problem is, between the TV networks and Twitter accounts I'm following, the outstanding count in blue suburban/urban in states like GA and NC are in person votes, which will favor Trump, so he's going to narrow those advantages slightly.  The bell weather counties in those states and PA not good in terms of them being too close.  Trump has ballooned in many rural deep red counties.  I think she's toast.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

ireactions wrote:

Vote counts are gradual. None of these non-results mean anything right now. Don't mistake mirages for results.
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2024-e … rcna175475

(He said fearfully.)

Indeed. *breathing nervously into bag*

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

The red mirage has been a constant in elections because vote counting across rural Republican areas is faster than counting votes across heavily populated Democrat areas. This could take days.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Okay I've been feeling good all day, but this looks like a disaster.  She might be able to salvage a win in the blue wall, but that's the only hope at this point.  What a nightmare.

I'm gonna go kiss my daughters, whisper an apology to them, and go to bed.  Maybe this will all end up being a bad dream.

3,208 (edited by Grizzlor 2024-11-05 22:01:50)

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Ehhhh, Trump is simply doing 2, 3, 4 points better in deep blue counties, thanks to shifts in the Hispanic vote.  She's running 3-5 points behind most all of the Dem Senate candidates.  I follow Democratic accounts like Adam Carlson and Tim Alberta, and they know the numbers and where they need to be.  The numbers are simply not there, not when Trump is running up bigger red margins in rural counties.  At this rate, I'm not sure if she'll win ANY swing state. 

I'm a realist.  She's barely up 6 points here in New Jersey with 80% vote in!  New York about 14 points.  These were 16 and 23 point wins in 2020.

3,209 (edited by QuinnSlidr 2024-11-05 22:03:58)

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

I am done. I'm so depressed I am going to sleep myself for the night. I can't believe all these stupid uneducated flyovers are going to throw away our democracy. And for what? Another Hitler himself? Sigh.

I can't watch anymore. I've had it. Maybe it will turn into just a bad dream tomorrow but I am not so sure. All the voting numbers show women coming out in droves to vote. Dems. Everybody. Rethuglicans down by 10-15-20 percent in some states. What the hell happened.

I just don't understand it.

Good night.

3,210 (edited by ireactions 2024-11-05 22:25:10)

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Simon Rosenberg wrote:

Friends, we've been through this before in both 2016 and 2020.  It is early, votes still need to be counted, as we saw in 2020 our vote comes in late, and Harris has multiple paths to 270.  Lots of Dem vote out everywhere.  It's hard but we need to be patient.

https://x.com/SimonWDC/status/1854010462699917527

Jen O'Malley Dillon wrote:

As we have known all along, this is a razor thin race.

We have known all along that our clearest path to 270 electoral votes lies through the Blue Wall states. And we feel good about what we’re seeing.

https://x.com/jeneps/status/1854010627523551301

Simon Rosenberg wrote:

As I wrote to you today, we are likely to have significant results from only three battleground states tonight by midnight ET - GA, MI and NC.

I can understand if folks are frustrated and anxious. So much data, partial results, things moving around. Things look good, then not so good. It’s also very hard to know what is happening in any county until 100% of the votes are in. Small rural Trump counties get counted quickly. Many of our big urban counties will end up reporting late tonight which means Trump may lead most of the night in some of these states and then things will tighten up.

Folks I spoke to in the campaign and in the states today were very optimistic. Vibes were good. I remain very optimistic.

It is going to be a close election, and we may not know the outcome until Thursday or Friday.

https://www.hopiumchronicles.com/p/hopi … otes-1-its

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Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Simon Rosenberg is maybe the biggest hack idiot I've ever seen.  He ignored mountains of data and strung unfortunate souls along with him.  Ignored the absolute awful poll numbers for this administration, as if they were meaningless.  Listen to this guy, VIBES???  Vibes are NOT votes.  The votes are NOT there, in any of these states.  He knows better.

3,212 (edited by ireactions 2024-11-06 02:41:02)

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

I apologize for posting so much from Simon Rosenberg.

I wanted to believe in the vision of the world he presented... but the vision he presented isn't actual reality. I made a mistake. I trusted the wrong person. I screwed up. I wanted to believe... but what I wanted to believe in just wasn't there.

I was scared and he gave me reason not to be, which is why I shared what he had to say. But I was still scared that he could be wrong, and he was wrong, and now I feel numb.

I told you that dark days were coming. This is as dark as I feared.

I am going to take some time to think, but I am so sorry for sharing what turned out to be neither true nor reliable. I feel bad.

I'll see what this person has to say for himself, but I won't share his analyses here again. No sense in posting misinformation.

3,213 (edited by QuinnSlidr 2024-11-06 05:15:27)

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Thanks a lot, America. You destroyed democracy.

You embraced fascism, racism, and a 34-time convicted felonious rapist.

You voted for him anyway.

He showed his true colors.

You voted for him anyway.

America dies in darkness.

I can't believe we are in 2016 again.

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Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Dems ran a weak candidate, untested by primaries, and paid the price.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

pilight wrote:

Dems ran a weak candidate, untested by primaries, and paid the price.

The first presidential candidate in 300 years who:

1. Has experience in the Legislative branch,
2. Has experience in the Judicial branch,
3. Has experience in the Executive branch.

Looks like a fine candidate to me except for misogynists and racists who won't like her because of those factors alone.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Brian, take some time to grieve. But don't let your ideals dismiss reality.

The reality I am forced to face: the people I counted on for analysis and assessment and strategy do not have what it takes to bring about a Democrat victory in today's political climate or even analyze an election correctly, and any rejoinders and protests to the contrary about qualifications and disdain for the opposing side and the electoral college are not accompanied with results. Which means you and I were ultimately presenting a losing hand.

As my archnemesis once said, you have to know when to hold them and when to fold them.

It seems to me we'd better listen long and hard to the Grizzlors and pilights of the world and better understand what it takes to win, because what we've got is not working for us.

Thank you, Grizzlor and pilight.

3,217 (edited by QuinnSlidr 2024-11-06 06:57:57)

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

ireactions wrote:

Brian, take some time to grieve. But don't let your ideals dismiss reality.

The reality I am forced to face: the people I counted on for analysis and assessment and strategy do not have what it takes to bring about a Democrat victory in today's political climate or even analyze an election correctly, and any rejoinders and protests to the contrary about qualifications and disdain for the opposing side and the electoral college are not accompanied with results. Which means you and I were ultimately presenting a losing hand.

As my archnemesis once said, you have to know when to hold them and when to fold them.

It seems to me we'd better listen long and hard to the Grizzlors and pilights of the world and better understand what it takes to win, because what we've got is not working for us.

Thank you, Grizzlor and pilight.

The reality is I believe Trump cheated, because nothing adds up or matches anything revealed in the preliminary numbers with women coming out in droves to vote. The hundreds of celebrities who endorsed Kamala. The thousands of people posting to Twitter, etc. saying they were in line voting democrat and for Kamala. All the republicans saying they were voting Kamala over Trump.

Let's see how things actually play out over the next few weeks.

No one has to agree with me and I'm not sure there's anything we can do about it but here are some statistics that don't make sense.

Trump increased his vote in 90% of the counties in the United States. In 90% of counties in the United states, how's that possible with someone who's disliked and hated by at least 45% of the country?

Harris lost in states where Democrats overperformed in the down ballot. So what Democrats are voting for Democratic candidates in the down ballot and not the Presidential race in large numbers? That makes no sense

Harris lost in states where they approved abortion.  There were seven states that had abortion on the ballot, and the only one where it didn't go through was Idaho. Make that make sense!!

These numbers don't make sense. Whatever the reason.

And he wasn't surprised in his "victory" speech. That should be the very tell that should make everybody concerned.

3,218 (edited by Slider_Quinn21 2024-11-06 08:13:54)

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

pilight wrote:

Dems ran a weak candidate, untested by primaries, and paid the price.

I think this is a BS argument.  Kamala wasn't the best candidate ever, but she had a positive approval rating.  She ran a strong campaign and built a ton of enthusiasm.  The primary argument is also bad because there's no evidence that there was any scenario where there would've been a true open primary.  The odds are, even if Biden had announced that he wasn't running for re-election on January 21, 2021, that she would have run unopposed as long as she wanted to run at all.  In fact, even if there had been an open primary, you would've come here and said that "her own party didn't even believe in her enough to crown her as the nominee.

And Trump is historically unpopular so I don't see how he's not a "weak candidate" as well.  I think pretty much anyone should've been able to beat Trump.  I'm not ready to go down the same road as QuinnSlidr, but something is really suspicious about this.  Not even Trump-sponsored polls were this rosy.  Trump is extremely shady, works with people that are extremely shady, and he's been planning something for four years.  For him to win so easily is extremely suspicious.

And since we're unlikely to have legitimate elections in this country any time soon, I'm cool doing a little election denying of my own.

******

I'm so annoyed and frustrated and angry.  So many people voted against their own interests, and they're going to pay.  Farmers in the midwest are going to lose their farms, either because they're crushed by tariffs or crushed by a lack of a workforce.  Poor blue collar workers are going to lose their unions, and they're going to be crushed by increased prices and a dreadful economy.  Latino men that voted overwhelmingly for this man are going to be deported, whether they are citizens or not.  Muslims who did protest votes or voted for Trump will be deported and Gaza will be destroyed.  Republicans who spent decades fighting the Soviets are going to hand Europe to Putin.

If we ever get another true election, Democrats need to find a way to get stupid people back.  Letting all the stupid people be in one party was the biggest mistake that the Democrats made.  But with all the war and disease and poverty that are coming, the Grim Reaper might take care of enough of those guys in the mean time.

3,219

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Harris wasn't vetted like a primary favorite would be.  She never would have gone unopposed if Biden had declared he wasn't running a year ago, like he should have.  Trump pounded her non-stop with that clip of her supporting publicly funded sex changes for prisoners and she didn't even try to respond.  If she'd been through the primary process that would have come out sooner and either she'd have found an answer or someone else would be the nominee.

Trump may not be a great candidate, but he's been thoroughly vetted.  We know what his nonsense is.  There was nothing like that to come out and make anyone think Trump wasn't the guy we knew he was.

3,220 (edited by Slider_Quinn21 2024-11-06 10:16:02)

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

pilight wrote:

Harris wasn't vetted like a primary favorite would be.  She never would have gone unopposed if Biden had declared he wasn't running a year ago, like he should have.  Trump pounded her non-stop with that clip of her supporting publicly funded sex changes for prisoners and she didn't even try to respond.  If she'd been through the primary process that would have come out sooner and either she'd have found an answer or someone else would be the nominee.

I'm sorry, but that's ridiculous.  How many people have "too many sex changes for prisoners" as their top issue?  Top 10 issues?  Top 100 issues?  It's a nonsense issue that accounts for basically no expense to taxpayers, and it was a Trump policy.

So prisoners are going to keep getting sex changes, because that's what the Trump administration wants, but he's going to torpedo the economy, deport millions, put Eileen Cannon on the Supreme Court, put RFK Jr in charge of health, remove fluoride from the water supply, ruin farmers, destroy manufacturing in the United States, destroy NATO, and join with Russia, China, and the great autocracies of the world?  Or maybe he will eliminate it and save the country between $16,000 and $128,000 for the two federal inmates who have received public-funded sex changes.

That's 0.000007552% of the federal budget on the high end.  But Dean Phillips was going to mention that on a debate stage and it would've just ended her campaign.  Ridiculous.

3,221 (edited by QuinnSlidr 2024-11-06 10:36:07)

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Slider_Quinn21 wrote:
pilight wrote:

Harris wasn't vetted like a primary favorite would be.  She never would have gone unopposed if Biden had declared he wasn't running a year ago, like he should have.  Trump pounded her non-stop with that clip of her supporting publicly funded sex changes for prisoners and she didn't even try to respond.  If she'd been through the primary process that would have come out sooner and either she'd have found an answer or someone else would be the nominee.

I'm sorry, but that's ridiculous.  How many people have "too many sex changes for prisoners" as their top issue?  Top 10 issues?  Top 100 issues?  It's a nonsense issue that accounts for basically no expense to taxpayers, and it was a Trump policy.

So prisoners are going to keep getting sex changes, because that's what the Trump administration wants, but he's going to torpedo the economy, deport millions, put Eileen Cannon on the Supreme Court, put RFK Jr in charge of health, remove fluoride from the water supply, ruin farmers, destroy manufacturing in the United States, destroy NATO, and join with Russia, China, and the great autocracies of the world?  Or maybe he will eliminate it and save the country between $16,000 and $128,000 for the two federal inmates who have received public-funded sex changes.

That's 0.000007552% of the federal budget on the high end.  But Dean Phillips was going to mention that on a debate stage and it would've just ended her campaign.  Ridiculous.

According to FactCheck.org (https://www.factcheck.org/2024/10/harri … detainees/), as Slider_Quinn21 pointed out the claim is ridiculous.

The constitution requires that the government provide needed medical care for prisoners, according to a 1976 ruling. In addition: 

"Transgender inmates in federal and state prisons have argued in court that this includes providing medically necessary gender-affirming care. Some federal and state prisoners have received gender-affirming surgeries following legal victories. So far, this has included two federal prisoners in the custody of the Federal Bureau of Prisons, according to an email from an agency spokesperson.

There are also government policies supporting necessary gender-affirming care for immigrant detainees, including hormone therapy, although we were unable to find any policy specifically recommending gender-affirming surgery or any records of such surgeries having occurred. 

When she was running to be the Democratic presidential nominee in 2019, Harris went on record in an American Civil Liberties Union candidate questionnaire as supporting medically necessary gender-affirming care for federal prisoners and immigrant detainees, including surgical care. She also expressed support for gender-affirming surgery for California state inmates on other occasions during her 2019 presidential run, taking some credit for working “behind the scenes” to get access to these surgeries for prisoners.

However, Harris has not clarified her exact position on gender-affirming care for prisoners and detainees during her current campaign, and Trump and his campaign have sometimes left out information on when and in what context Harris spoke about these topics. Trump’s statements also lack context on the small number of gender-affirming surgeries that prisoners have received and the legal basis for providing such care. Attempts by a presidential administration to roll back access to gender-affirming care for prisoners would likely meet legal challenges."

The primary process whatever it was doesn't matter. Something happened engineered by Trump and he cheated in this election, and we're gonna get to the bottom of it. "Whether you like it or not."

3,222

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

She didn't say any of that.  She let Trump hammer away with a very effective ad that made it seem like it was a high priority for her.  It put her in the identity politics box that makes people not vote for Democrats.  Politics is perception.  It doesn't matter what the truth is, it matters what people think the truth is.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

pilight wrote:

She didn't say any of that.  She let Trump hammer away with a very effective ad that made it seem like it was a high priority for her.  It put her in the identity politics box that makes people not vote for Democrats.  Politics is perception.  It doesn't matter what the truth is, it matters what people think the truth is.

I don't think that people believing in fiction aka FOX News should be given a chance to vote. So no, it shouldn't matter what people think the truth is.

3,224 (edited by Slider_Quinn21 2024-11-06 10:48:26)

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

pilight wrote:

She didn't say any of that.  She let Trump hammer away with a very effective ad that made it seem like it was a high priority for her.  It put her in the identity politics box that makes people not vote for Democrats.  Politics is perception.  It doesn't matter what the truth is, it matters what people think the truth is.

Again, Democrats need to do better about getting idiots to vote for them.  Idiots just elected Trump because they are idiots.  They have the brains of children, and they make decisions like children.

When you offer a child the choice between one piece of candy right now and ten pieces of candy if they wait ten minutes, the child will always pick the one piece of candy right now.  Their brains are not developed enough to understand that they get more if they wait, and they are too focused on getting the candy right now.  That is Trump voters.  They do not have brains developed enough to think critically about anything, and they have no ability to understand that they just sacrificed their own economic outlook because two people got sex changes under a Trump policy.

And when they suffer economically or when Trump voters are deported or when costs skyrocket because of idiotic tariffs, they'll get no sympathy from me.  They should consider it time out for the children they are.

3,225 (edited by QuinnSlidr 2024-11-06 11:09:21)

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Once again, nothing adds up.

https://x.com/YourAnonNews/status/1854149455064314141

https://i.postimg.cc/HsKGzjgn/image.png

3,226 (edited by QuinnSlidr 2024-11-06 11:40:48)

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

History will record that America died of a self-inflicted wound.

RFK Jr will get rid of all vaccines.

Trump will deport everyone who doesn't agree with him.

Anything that's actual science that disagrees with Hitler will be banned.

Anything that disagrees with Hitler will be banned.

Abortion will be banned.

Women will be second class citizens.

Women will lose their right to vote.

Everyone will lose their right to vote.

America dies in darkness.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

I think America will survive.  This isn't a fatal blow any more than Hitler was a fatal blow for Germany.  We have a very stupid and very selfish president who will sell us out to Russia, China, North Korea, Iran, and others.  But he's old and will die sooner than later.  The Supreme Court will be lost for generations, but the country will survive.  The economy will be in tatters, and I assume the world will need to move to a different reserve currency with the shape the dollar will be in.

But extreme autocracies like the one Trump wants don't last forever.  Particularly when Trump, again, is very old and in poor health and has no clear heir.  I think if Trump dies sooner than later, Vance will be more of an existential threat than a physical one.  I assume he'd still be owned by Russia and China, but there's less evidence that he's as comically manipulated by other autocrats.  I also gotta think that Vance is more of an opportunist than a true fascist, and he might allow for a free and fair election if given the choice.

Remember that Hitler died cowering in a bunker.  Mussolini was executed.  Bad men win, but history is full of ones that died horribly.

3,228

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

QuinnSlidr wrote:

Once again, nothing adds up.

The problem is that it's 2020 that's way out of whack.  2016, 137M votes, 2024 is still being counted but looks to be in that same area.  2020 had 158M votes.  There's never been a jump like that from one election to the next.

3,229

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

QuinnSlidr wrote:
pilight wrote:

She didn't say any of that.  She let Trump hammer away with a very effective ad that made it seem like it was a high priority for her.  It put her in the identity politics box that makes people not vote for Democrats.  Politics is perception.  It doesn't matter what the truth is, it matters what people think the truth is.

I don't think that people believing in fiction aka FOX News should be given a chance to vote. So no, it shouldn't matter what people think the truth is.

Perhaps not, but that's democracy.

3,230 (edited by Slider_Quinn21 2024-11-06 13:32:51)

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

It is funny that the same people that love to defend the Electoral College are the same exact people who the Founding Fathers thought were too stupid to let vote.  It was literally created because the framers thought they were too uninformed to vote.

250 years later, nothing has changed.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Cheating found:

Centre County PA ballot software found not counting mail-in ballots:

https://x.com/rbgslegacy/status/1854193295489982820

3,232

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Slider_Quinn21 wrote:

It is funny that the same people that love to defend the Electoral College are the same exact people who the Founding Fathers thought were too stupid to let vote.  It was literally created because the framers thought they were too uninformed to vote.

250 years later, nothing has changed.


The Electoral College was a compromise to give slave states more power.

The Founding Fathers absolutely intended for wealthy white men like Trump to be in charge, because that's who they were.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

pilight wrote:

The Electoral College was a compromise to give slave states more power.

The Founding Fathers absolutely intended for wealthy white men like Trump to be in charge, because that's who they were.

Well, yeah.  Of course.  Almost every one of our presidents has been a rich white man.  But you cannot argue that the vast majority of Trump's voters are the people the Founding Fathers thought were too stupid to vote.  And they were right.

3,234 (edited by QuinnSlidr 2024-11-06 17:32:03)

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Goodbye America. Welcome to Gilead.

The rethuglicans now control the House. There are no more checks and balances. It's over.

Get ready for project 2025 to be implemented in one month or less beginning on inauguration day, including the GOP to eliminate all dem positions with zero opposition. None.

If you want to get out of the United States before January, now's the time to do it.

3,235

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Slider_Quinn21 wrote:
pilight wrote:

The Electoral College was a compromise to give slave states more power.

The Founding Fathers absolutely intended for wealthy white men like Trump to be in charge, because that's who they were.

Well, yeah.  Of course.  Almost every one of our presidents has been a rich white man.  But you cannot argue that the vast majority of Trump's voters are the people the Founding Fathers thought were too stupid to vote.  And they were right.

A huge portion of Harris voters are people the Founding Fathers literally prohibited from voting.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

You're missing the point.  Trump's voters love the Electoral College.  And the Electoral College was created because of them.  Of course, as idiots, they also don't get that the joke is on them.

Now Trump is also looking to deport a decent number of his own voters so if we get another election again, Democrats will have a better chance.  Of course, Trump won't care because he only cares about himself.

Goodbye America. Welcome to Gilead.

I don't think Trump would want to be the leader of Gilead.  That's something Vance might want, but Trump would be much more interested in running a place with no religion at all.  He would hate all the porn stars that he keeps around him to be dressed like that.

(Evangelicals are so stupid).

3,237

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

The Electoral College is arcane, but irrelevant to this election.  Trump won the popular vote.

The Founding Fathers would have all been behind Trump in this election.

3,238 (edited by Slider_Quinn21 2024-11-06 21:30:05)

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Oh boy, you are really struggling.

Okay.  Republicans love the Electoral College.  Because, prior to last night, the Republicans hadn't won the popular vote in a long time.  So even though no other modern democracy copied it, they have fought every attempt to eliminate it.  The funny part is that the Electoral College was established because the Founding Fathers didn't respect the average American.  They found the average American to be too stupid to understand anything enough to make a decision on who to vote for.  They had the opportunity to give people a direct vote, but the framers thought the people were too stupid to vote.

The people that love the Electoral College and the Founding Fathers are the people the Founding Fathers respected the least so they created the Electoral College.  It is a joke at the expense of Trump voters.  Who are too dumb to vote and who the Founding Fathers did not (and would still not) respect.

If the 18th Century Electoral College had been around, Trump would have gotten zero votes.  Because the electors would have been educated enough to realize that Trump is an idiot.

You are correct that women couldn't vote and minorities couldn't vote and that rich white men were who the elites wanted.  All beside the point.  Kamala also wouldn't be the candidate because she is both a woman and black.  So also beside the point.  There obviously would've been a different candidate for Trump to run against, but the point is no educated person would ever vote for Trump.  And since all the electors were educated, Trump would get zero votes under the system that Republicans love so much.

Because Trump is an idiot and his voters are too stupid to vote under that system.  That's the entire joke.  It wasn't that complicated.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Slider_Quinn21 wrote:

I think America will survive.  This isn't a fatal blow any more than Hitler was a fatal blow for Germany.  We have a very stupid and very selfish president who will sell us out to Russia, China, North Korea, Iran, and others.  But he's old and will die sooner than later.  The Supreme Court will be lost for generations, but the country will survive.  The economy will be in tatters, and I assume the world will need to move to a different reserve currency with the shape the dollar will be in.

I hope you're right.

It seems to me that Biden's legacy is that he took the White House away from Trump... but then he basically gave it back. Anything Biden has accomplished will be undone.

Democrats are blaming Biden for the loss, for wasting time, for not committing to one term, for not letting a new candidate take center stage well in advance and distinguish themselves as separate from Biden, and for turning a deaf ear to inflation and the pain it was causing the working class.
https://www.politico.com/news/2024/11/0 … n-00188092

It's a terrible situation. For four years, I had to constantly read the news in terror of what Trump had done, and now we're going to be facing an ever darker version of that.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

I think the hope is that Trump keels over really early into his presidency (or, preferably, prior to inauguration) and that Trump being out of the picture removes the incentive for Vance and Graham and a lot of the Republicans who have openly been very anti-Trump in the past to keep doing this song and dance on his behalf.  Vance is probably more likely to do Project 2025 stuff, but he's not as likely to get out of NATO, sell national secrets for bail money, or overthrow the government.  I think Vance is an extremist and would be a bad president, but I don't think he's out to destroy the American government and Trump is.  Trump would be like Putin.  Basically any other Republican would be bad but not apocalyptic (in my opinion).

And that's what I was looking forward to.  If you watched Trump surrogates in power, they almost universally refused to openly endorse much of the crazy Donald Trump stuff.  They talk about "oh Trump meant this" or "Trump speaks in metaphors" or "Trump uses a lot of hyperbole" or whatever.  I think Trump would absolutely have Liz Cheney executed and have Biden and Harris and especially Obama thrown in jail.  I think Vance wouldn't even consider any of that stuff.

Again, the courts are gone.  I assume gay marriage is gone.  I assume a national abortion ban is coming.  I assume interracial marriage being illegal is on the table.  Same with contraceptives.  No one is going to stop that.

But I don't think Vance or most Republicans actively want to destroy the economy.  I think Trump does.