601 (edited by pneumatic 2023-02-24 23:30:43)

Re: Sliders DVD Releases (Universal, Mill Creek, SD blu-ray, Restoration)

Does anyone know where to buy Season 5 on Universal NTSC DVD?  I can't find it anywhere, even a used copy.   I've already bought the Mill Creek NTSC release but it has the field alignment issue.   I've bought the PAL DVDs but could only get seasons 1-4.   PMs very welcome!

btw I did some experiments in Photoshop and can reproduce the Muck Creek field alignment issue exactly.  Trying to figure out a way to reverse it in Photoshop, then once I know it works in theory it should be translatable to an Avisynth script.  But I'm still not sure if the damage is done in a way that is reversible or not.   It's kind of like lossy vs lossless compression - one of them can be reversed to get a 1:1 copy of the original, the other cannot.   Reversing the field alignment issue may still be lossy.  I think if I knew the exact scaling factor and algorithm they used for the digital zoom which put the fields out of alignment, then maybe I could reverse it 1:1.

Re: Sliders DVD Releases (Universal, Mill Creek, SD blu-ray, Restoration)

Found this on eBay:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/134142131107

You'll unfortunately have to contact the seller about shipping to Australia.

Or you may have to buy a complete series set to get the NTSC Season 5:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/334605147691
https://www.ebay.com/itm/185178813590

Re: Sliders DVD Releases (Universal, Mill Creek, SD blu-ray, Restoration)

pneumatic wrote:

Does anyone know where to buy Season 5 on Universal NTSC DVD?  I can't find it anywhere, even a used copy.   I've already bought the Mill Creek NTSC release but it has the field alignment issue.   I've bought the PAL DVDs but could only get seasons 1-4.   PMs very welcome!

btw I did some experiments in Photoshop and can reproduce the Muck Creek field alignment issue exactly.  Trying to figure out a way to reverse it in Photoshop, then once I know it works in theory it should be translatable to an Avisynth script.  But I'm still not sure if the damage is done in a way that is reversible or not.   It's kind of like lossy vs lossless compression - one of them can be reversed to get a 1:1 copy of the original, the other cannot.   Reversing the field alignment issue may still be lossy.  I think if I knew the exact scaling factor and algorithm they used for the digital zoom which put the fields out of alignment, then maybe I could reverse it 1:1.

I sent you a email through the forum software and a private message through the PMs about your original request a few weeks ago...;)

Re: Sliders DVD Releases (Universal, Mill Creek, SD blu-ray, Restoration)

RussianCabbie_Lotteryfan wrote:

I sent you a email through the forum software and a private message through the PMs about your original request a few weeks ago...;)

Sorry,  looks like I missed it.  I've replied now...

Re: Sliders DVD Releases (Universal, Mill Creek, SD blu-ray, Restoration)

Soooo, in my recent upscale of SLIDERS 1.02 - 1.09, I became overly enthusiastic about upping the saturation levels for the episodes. And now... my upscales of 1.04 - 1.09 are entirely too saturated; the skin tones all look radioactively pink. It is ghastly and I have to redo them all.

In addition to giving myself extra work, I have also made pneumatic's point about reckless colour changes.

606 (edited by pneumatic 2023-02-26 03:42:10)

Re: Sliders DVD Releases (Universal, Mill Creek, SD blu-ray, Restoration)

Is that Universal or Mill Creek?  Sounds like the saturation may be higher for those later episodes (hard to tell with Mill Creek since it all looks like crap).

Regarding the field misalignment issue, it is possible to smooth it out a little by applying a kind of deflicker filter which works by blending each pixel with the pixel above/below.  Here is what it looks like, not sure if you guys would like it

https://imgsli.com/MTU3OTQ2
https://imgsli.com/MTU3OTQz
https://imgsli.com/MTU3OTQ0  (looks like Quinn has a mustache & Wade has 3 lips)
https://imgsli.com/MTU3OTQ1

I'm not sure if it's the lesser of 2 evils as it does smudge a lot of resolution out of the image.

Re: Sliders DVD Releases (Universal, Mill Creek, SD blu-ray, Restoration)

pneumatic wrote:

I'm not sure if it's the lesser of 2 evils as it does smudge a lot of resolution out of the image.

Why not then try to add a sharpen thereafter?

608 (edited by pneumatic 2023-02-26 07:02:16)

Re: Sliders DVD Releases (Universal, Mill Creek, SD blu-ray, Restoration)

RussianCabbie_Lotteryfan wrote:

Why not then try to add a sharpen thereafter?

Yep, have tried that & found it only gets you so far.  I then tried doing a stronger initial blur to make it seem like all pixels are blurred by the same amount, and then adding very strong amount of sharpening afterwards but the effect was not visually pleasing.  Also tried just throwing away every second field and starting with 720x240 then neural network upscaling the result to various factors like 2x, 4x and then scaling back down to 480p.   Actually the screenshots you are looking at are blended with neural network interpolations but it still looks rough.  I'll keep trying...

Re: Sliders DVD Releases (Universal, Mill Creek, SD blu-ray, Restoration)

pneumatic wrote:

Is that Universal or Mill Creek?  Sounds like the saturation may be higher for those later episodes (hard to tell with Mill Creek since it all looks like crap).

Regarding the field misalignment issue, it is possible to smooth it out a little by applying a kind of deflicker filter which works by blending each pixel with the pixel above/below.  Here is what it looks like, not sure if you guys would like it

I'm not sure if it's the lesser of 2 evils as it does smudge a lot of resolution out of the image.

I was using Universal NTSC discs.

Do you find that Handbrake detelecine is as smudge-producing as your method? Or worse? I assume it's not better since you don't use it.

pneumatic wrote:
RussianCabbie_Lotteryfan wrote:

Why not then try to add a sharpen thereafter?

Yep, have tried that & found it only gets you so far.  I then tried doing a stronger initial blur to make it seem like all pixels are blurred by the same amount, and then adding very strong amount of sharpening afterwards but the effect was not visually pleasing.  Also tried just throwing away every second field and starting with 720x240 then neural network upscaling the result to various factors like 2x, 4x and then scaling back down to 480p.   Actually the screenshots you are looking at are blended with neural network interpolations but it still looks rough.  I'll keep trying...

If you can do better cleanup work on the DVD files, I'd be curious about running your results through Topaz AI.

610 (edited by pneumatic 2023-02-26 12:38:16)

Re: Sliders DVD Releases (Universal, Mill Creek, SD blu-ray, Restoration)

ireactions wrote:

Do you find that Handbrake detelecine is as smudge-producing as your method? Or worse? I assume it's not better since you don't use it.

My screenshots are showing my intentional deflicker smudging filter applied after I've already detelecined.  Detelecine itself shouldn't produce any smudging as it mostly just performs field matching to weave as many field pairs as possible so that you get true 480p resolution frames coming out.   Although I've seen a problem where the frames that come out of the field matching process are double checked for combing in case they contain fields that couldn't be matched to other fields ("orphan fields") and if Handbrake doesn't set the thresholds right (or disable the decombing feature entirely) it can cause false positives.  eg. in this clip (played by your media player not in web browser) at around the 9 second mark notice the aliasing & line twitter on the blinds and upper walls - that would be the decomber falsely detecting those pixels as combed due to the stippled patterns in the blinds.  Other patterns like actors wearing striped/checked shirts, car radiator grills or the rims of a stack of plates in a kitchen scene can set off the decomber too so I like to disable decombing entirely for clean sources, or set the threshold very high so it only triggers when there's lots of combing, or only check n frames either side of scene changes (as this is mostly where orphan fields end up due to the editing equipment in the 90's not making sure every scene ends perfectly at the end of a 3:2 sequence).  Another issue is repeated frames like the one at 11 seconds, that can also be mitigated with the right decimation settings as well.   This is why I want the original discs so I can do my own real-time Avisynth detelecine with my own optimal settings rather than trusting Handbrake or someone else to get it right.


ireactions wrote:

If you can do better cleanup work on the DVD files, I'd be curious about running your results through Topaz AI.

I've been spending some time with the PAL Universal version this evening and I think it's reasonable quality - it's quite a lot better than Mill Creek, on average (season 1 is still a bit meh).  Since Universal NTSC only has a few problematic episodes, perhaps it might be better to just replace those few problematic episodes with the PAL version (detelecined to 25p and then slowed down to 23.976 of course to match the NTSC version, which is trivial to do in Avisynth).   

Regardless, I still want a solution to this issue and it looks like there is a neural net based smoother that works wonders on animation with this field alignment problem, but it might not work on live action scenes very well and I haven't figured out how to actually use it yet (it seems to require python so it would involve reencoding every episode which I really want to avoid).  I'll report back with any findings.

611 (edited by pneumatic 2023-02-26 14:36:29)

Re: Sliders DVD Releases (Universal, Mill Creek, SD blu-ray, Restoration)

Got the NN scaler working and the results are great: https://imgsli.com/MTU4MDUx

But it's far too slow, about 0.3fps on a GTX 1070 (about 3 days for a 42min episode)

Re: Sliders DVD Releases (Universal, Mill Creek, SD blu-ray, Restoration)

pneumatic wrote:

Got the NN scaler working and the results are great: https://imgsli.com/MTU4MDUx

But it's far too slow, about 0.3fps on a GTX 1070 (about 3 days for a 42min episode)

That is great but one thing I noticed is for the letters that were not problematic (e.g. they weren't misaligned) you could argue some of the letters ended up looking  worse (less vibrant in color and softer edges) vs. the original (brighter yellow, and sharper edges, though maybe a bit pixelated).

The problematic letters in the original, however, it completely fixes... which is very impressive.

613 (edited by pneumatic 2023-02-26 15:18:39)

Re: Sliders DVD Releases (Universal, Mill Creek, SD blu-ray, Restoration)

RussianCabbie_Lotteryfan wrote:

That is great but one thing I noticed is for the letters that were not problematic (e.g. they weren't misaligned) you could argue some of the letters ended up looking  worse (less vibrant in color and softer edges) vs. the original (brighter yellow, and sharper edges, though maybe a bit pixelated).

Yeah I noticed that too.
Here it is vs Universal NTSC : https://imgsli.com/MTU4MDU2

Re: Sliders DVD Releases (Universal, Mill Creek, SD blu-ray, Restoration)

pneumatic wrote:
RussianCabbie_Lotteryfan wrote:

That is great but one thing I noticed is for the letters that were not problematic (e.g. they weren't misaligned) you could argue some of the letters ended up looking  worse (less vibrant in color and softer edges) vs. the original (brighter yellow, and sharper edges, though maybe a bit pixelated).

Yeah I noticed that too.
Here it is vs Universal NTSC : https://imgsli.com/MTU4MDU2

it's much better on the new version

615 (edited by pneumatic 2023-03-02 05:20:29)

Re: Sliders DVD Releases (Universal, Mill Creek, SD blu-ray, Restoration)

I've had some time to view the Season 1 Mill Creek episodes on the big screen with the deflicker filter applied, and I think with this filter it is in watchable condition.  It is not good quality by any means, but I think it just passed the threshold from unwatchable to watchable.  The drop shadow lines are absolutely gone.  The weird facial features on actors at a distance are completely gone.  The image certainly isn't as sharp, but it's not out of focus or difficult to look at either.  I am adding a conservative amount of Lumasharpen through the media player's renderer to compensate for the deflicker filter. 

This is the Avisynth script I'm using:

# setup source video
sourcefile = "D:\Video\Series\Sci-Fi\Sliders (Mill Creek DVD)\Season 1\S01E04.mkv"
video = LWLibavVideoSource(source=sourcefile, stream_index=-1, repeat=true, cache=true)
audio = LWLibavAudioSource(source=sourcefile, stream_index=1, cache=true)
AudioDub(video, audio)

# detelecine: field matching to 30p
TFM(mode=0, slow=2, PP=6, cthresh=9, MI=96, scthresh=100, 
\    clip2=bwdif(last, field=-1, thr=2, pass=true))

# detelecine: remove duplicates to 24p
TDecimate(mode=1, cycle=5, cycleR=1, hybrid=1, viddetect=2, vidthresh=4.5,
\    chroma=false, denoise=true, hint=false)

# deflicker filter
nnedi3(field=-2)
Merge(SelectEven(), SelectOdd())

# aspect ratio 4:3 square pixels
LanczosResize(720, 540)

# optional: raise audio volume to highest peak without clipping
# Normalize(1.0)


How to use:

1. Use MakeMKV to dump your original disc to .mkv files.  The Avisynth script will not necessarily work properly on other people's rips, it needs the original interlaced video stream from the disc.

2. Install the latest version of Avisynth+ 64-bit

3. Download the latest version of the filters used by my script: LSMASHSource, bwdif, nnedi3. Drop the 64-bit .dll files into eg. C:\Program Files (x86)\AviSynth+\plugins64.

4. Paste the script into a text file, save it as an .avs file and open it with a media player that supports playing Avisynth files. I'm using MPC-HC with MadVR as the renderer, which can be downloaded as a preconfigured pack here.  To avoid audio sync issues with Avisynth files I had to set MPC-HC to use MPC Audio Renderer instead of the default Sane Audio Renderer (Options > Playback > Output > Audio Renderer > MPC Audio Renderer) .

Re: Sliders DVD Releases (Universal, Mill Creek, SD blu-ray, Restoration)

This is very interesting. I wonder if you might come up with something to improve the Universal DVDs when you get them and then I'll follow your script for Episodes 1.02 - 1.09 and run another upscale on the files through Topaz AI.

I will say, while it's a crime against culture that "Eggheads" is blurry and "The Breeder" is crisp on DVD, at least the Pilot on Universal DVD looks good. RussianCabbie and I have wondered if the Pilot and only the Pilot were edited on film -- or at least very high resolution analog videotape.

617 (edited by pneumatic 2023-03-02 09:03:42)

Re: Sliders DVD Releases (Universal, Mill Creek, SD blu-ray, Restoration)

ireactions wrote:

This is very interesting. I wonder if you might come up with something to improve the Universal DVDs when you get them and then I'll follow your script for Episodes 1.02 - 1.09 and run another upscale on the files through Topaz AI.

The only solution I've got currently is the deflicker filter, so all I could do is apply that to the Universal NTSC episodes which have the issue.  Or substitute the PAL version just for those episodes (whichever is better). 

By the way you can do AI (neural network) upscaling in Avisynth too, eg.

nnedi3_rpow2(rfactor=4, nns=1)          # AI upscale 4x (720x480 -> 2880x1920)
BicubicResize(1440, 1080, 0.0, 3.0)     # downscale to 1080p with blur=0.0, sharpness=3.0

https://imgsli.com/MTU5MTA1
https://imgsli.com/MTU5MTAz

edit: there's also a GPU accelerated version of it here (also note the special requirements here) which in my testing appears to be fast enough for real time use:

NNEDI3CL(field=1, nns=1, nsize=0, dh=true, dw=true)     # AI upscale 2x: 720x480 -> 1440x960
NNEDI3CL(field=1, nns=1, nsize=0, dh=true, dw=true)     # AI upscale 2x: 1440x960 -> 2880x1920
BicubicResize(1440, 1080, 0.0, 2.0, -0.5, -1.5)         # downscale to 1080p with sharpening=2.0

Note that when upscaling SD to HD the colourimetry (matrix & gamut) also needs to be converted, otherwise colour hues will be wrong.  It's cheaper to do this prior to the upscale (less pixels to process):

# convert colourimetry from NTSC to HD 
z_ConvertFormat(                        
\ colorspace_op="601:601:170m:full=>709:709:709:full",
\ resample_filter="bicubic",
\ interlaced=true )

Alternatively if your media player is using MadVR you can just tag the file name or parent folder name with [matrix=601][primaries=170M] and this will tell MadVR to decode it with SD NTSC colourimetry (otherwise MadVR would see the resolution of the video is 1080p and infer it uses HD colourimetry).

Re: Sliders DVD Releases (Universal, Mill Creek, SD blu-ray, Restoration)

The Mill Creek edition is garbage as far as video quality. The one thing it has going for it is that the episodes are in the right order. I've got a screenshot comparison between it and the Universal releases: https://slidecage.com/dvd/complete/. I still truly believe Sliders was shot on film every last bit. Edited on video tape for special effects, quite likely. I've been watching the original MacGyver and I've noticed there's some parts every now and then that aren't in HD. What that's about I don't know, perhaps they lost part of the original film or there's too much deterioration, but you would think they'd use AI.

Lets just peacefully protest on the sidewalk outside Universal. It pains me to see new tv shows that no one wants to see being produced, and fans want HD versions of classics. That being said, looking back at other shows I like, I feel like we have a better chance than we think. Sliders is one of those that is still on the radar barely, but it isn't completely forgotten like others. People literally mention Sliders everyday on Twitter. I keep tabs on it using Tweetdeck. Really now is the time for Universal to take action for HD. People keep saying over and over how it relates to current events.

slidecage.com
Twitter @slidersfanblog
Instagram slidersfanblog

619 (edited by pneumatic 2023-03-02 15:33:04)

Re: Sliders DVD Releases (Universal, Mill Creek, SD blu-ray, Restoration)

Jim_Hall wrote:

The Mill Creek edition is garbage as far as video quality.

Yep it's pretty bad.  Here's my attempt at cleaning it up so far...

Scene 1 - city square
Scene 2 - forest
Scene 3 - studio
Scene 4 - end credits

To see the actual quality you'll have to download the files and play them with a media player.  The version that plays embedded in your web browser is Google/Youtube's transcode of it, not the original file.

Filters used in this order:

DeCross (reduce analogue rainbow dotcrawl artefacts)
Detelecine to 480p
Deflicker filter (reduce field alignment drop shadow lines)
Convert colourimetry to HD Rec.709
4x AI upscale to 2880x1920p
Downscale & sharpen to 1440x1080p
Slight colour saturation increase

I played around with noise reduction but didn't like the result.  Might have to play around with the thresholds a bit more.

Re: Sliders DVD Releases (Universal, Mill Creek, SD blu-ray, Restoration)

pneumatic wrote:
Jim_Hall wrote:

The Mill Creek edition is garbage as far as video quality.

Yep it's pretty bad.  Here's my attempt at cleaning it up so far...

Scene 1 - city square
Scene 2 - forest
Scene 3 - studio
Scene 4 - end credits

To see the actual quality you'll have to download the files and play them with a media player.  The version that plays embedded in your web browser is Google/Youtube's transcode of it, not the original file.

Filters used in this order:

DeCross (reduce analogue rainbow dotcrawl artefacts)
Detelecine to 480p
Deflicker filter (reduce field alignment drop shadow lines)
Convert colourimetry to HD Rec.709
4x AI upscale to 2880x1920p
Downscale & sharpen to 1440x1080p
Slight colour saturation increase

I played around with noise reduction but didn't like the result.  Might have to play around with the thresholds a bit more.

Just going off the top of my head memory wise the lines around objects look cleaner to me and color less faded.  I am pretty sure for some of the janky looking episodes in s1 and s2 a lot of the releases could benefit from such correction.   Not all the releases had such distorted screen credits so maube its not the same type of field alignment issue but there seems to be some other quality issues going on that feel similar.

Re: Sliders DVD Releases (Universal, Mill Creek, SD blu-ray, Restoration)

Well, I'm officially stumped.   I'm looking at the opening scene of S01E06 Last Days from the Universal NTSC DVD (disc ISO, not someone else's transcode) and I'm seeing deinterlacing artefacts BAKED INTO the source.  These artefacts are not present in another copy of this episode which was transcoded by someone else.

Is it possible there are multiple Universal NTSC releases, and one of them is superior?

Re: Sliders DVD Releases (Universal, Mill Creek, SD blu-ray, Restoration)

@pneumatic  I just sent you a note

Re: Sliders DVD Releases (Universal, Mill Creek, SD blu-ray, Restoration)

pneumatic wrote:

Well, I'm officially stumped.   I'm looking at the opening scene of S01E06 Last Days from the Universal NTSC DVD (disc ISO, not someone else's transcode) and I'm seeing deinterlacing artefacts BAKED INTO the source.  These artefacts are not present in another copy of this episode which was transcoded by someone else.

Is it possible there are multiple Universal NTSC releases, and one of them is superior?

Technically there's 4 releases of seasons one and two for NTSC. There's 2 complete series sets. One by Mill Creek the other by Universal. Then there's the original Dual Dimension set which features both seasons one and two. Then there was season 1 and season 2 sold separately. Everything looks the same to me except the Mill Creek Version.

slidecage.com
Twitter @slidersfanblog
Instagram slidersfanblog

624 (edited by pneumatic 2023-03-03 10:03:52)

Re: Sliders DVD Releases (Universal, Mill Creek, SD blu-ray, Restoration)

Jim_Hall wrote:

Technically there's 4 releases of seasons one and two for NTSC. There's 2 complete series sets. One by Mill Creek the other by Universal. Then there's the original Dual Dimension set which features both seasons one and two. Then there was season 1 and season 2 sold separately. Everything looks the same to me except the Mill Creek Version.

Thanks, yep I would expect the Universal releases to all be the same MPEG2 video streams, just as they are for the 2 PAL Universal version's I've got.     

I'm not sure what's going on, either there are multiple Universal NTSCs with different image quality, or whoever did this particular transcode of it is wielding some voodoo magic video processing that I cannot get my head around.

625 (edited by RussianCabbie_Lotteryfan 2023-03-03 10:04:25)

Re: Sliders DVD Releases (Universal, Mill Creek, SD blu-ray, Restoration)

Universal released the Dual Dimension set in 2004 (s1 & s2)

Then they did a re-release in 2008 I believe of Season 1 individually, and season 2, individually.

Actually, was it 2012?

https://slidecage.com/dvd/season-01/

https://slidecage.com/dvd/season-02/

626 (edited by Jim_Hall 2023-03-03 10:14:05)

Re: Sliders DVD Releases (Universal, Mill Creek, SD blu-ray, Restoration)

RussianCabbie_Lotteryfan wrote:

Universal released the Dual Dimension set in 2004 (s1 & s2)

Then they did a re-release in 2008 I believe of Season 1 individually, and season 2, individually.

Actually, was it 2012?

https://slidecage.com/dvd/season-01/

https://slidecage.com/dvd/season-02/

2012 for the individual ones. The best set in my opinion is the Complete series released in 2014. It's the second one on the page: https://slidecage.com/dvd/complete/. Mainly because it's just packaged way better. It has all the extras that came with the others. If you can find one they quite expensive now.

slidecage.com
Twitter @slidersfanblog
Instagram slidersfanblog

Re: Sliders DVD Releases (Universal, Mill Creek, SD blu-ray, Restoration)

Jim_Hall wrote:
RussianCabbie_Lotteryfan wrote:

Universal released the Dual Dimension set in 2004 (s1 & s2)

Then they did a re-release in 2008 I believe of Season 1 individually, and season 2, individually.

Actually, was it 2012?

https://slidecage.com/dvd/season-01/

https://slidecage.com/dvd/season-02/

2012 for the individual ones. The best set in my opinion is the Complete series released in 2014. It's the second one on the page: https://slidecage.com/dvd/complete/. Mainly because it's just packaged way better. It has all the extras that came with the others. If you can find one they quite expensive now.

So universal released S1 and S2 in

- 2004 (Dual Dimension)
- 2012 (individual seasons)
- 2014 (complete series)

628 (edited by pneumatic 2023-03-03 17:40:27)

Re: Sliders DVD Releases (Universal, Mill Creek, SD blu-ray, Restoration)

Thanks, it looks like the version I've got is the 2004 release.

Here's a screenshot comparison from the same frame: https://imgsli.com/MTU5NTY2

Note the branches at top of frame - that's not my deinterlacer doing that, it's baked into the video itself.  The shadows of the trees on the road also have deinterlacing artefacts on certain frames visible only when the video is playing, they noticeably "twitch" as lines are occasionally replaced with interpolated fields.  But again that is baked into the source, not my equipment or processing (I disabled all of it to be sure).

So either there is a superior NTSC DVD version out there, or whoever did that transcode somehow smoothed it out.

Re: Sliders DVD Releases (Universal, Mill Creek, SD blu-ray, Restoration)

I really, really, really do not understand why anyone would put so much effort into cleaning up the Mill Creek files of Season 1 when they have the Universal NTSC DVDs... but regardless, I salute you and raise my SLIDERS cocktail to honour your achievement.

(See Robert Floyd's SLIDERS cocktail recipe here: https://sliders.tv/bboard/viewtopic.php … 577#p13577 )

Re: Sliders DVD Releases (Universal, Mill Creek, SD blu-ray, Restoration)

pneumatic wrote:

Thanks, it looks like the version I've got is the 2004 release.

Here's a screenshot comparison from the same frame: https://imgsli.com/MTU5NTY2

.


The one on the right looks better to me.

Though the image on the left doesn't start at the left edge side of the frame properly. You will notice a black bar.  So the slider doesn't show the exact same content when you slide to compare... it kinda shifts so makes it a little harder to compare.

631 (edited by pneumatic 2023-03-04 10:43:13)

Re: Sliders DVD Releases (Universal, Mill Creek, SD blu-ray, Restoration)

RussianCabbie_Lotteryfan wrote:

Though the image on the left doesn't start at the left edge side of the frame properly. You will notice a black bar.  So the slider doesn't show the exact same content when you slide to compare... it kinda shifts so makes it a little harder to compare.

Yes, it's because the person who did the encode (MCH) cropped the small ~8px black pillarbox bars down the right and left side, then set the video stream's aspect ratio flag to 4:3 which causes the directshow video renderer to stretch it back to 4:3 at runtime, creating a 1.022% (720/704) wider aspect.   I can correct that manually but it's trivial.

I believe the source frame for both images is the same, because I stepped through 1 frame at time and counted them manually - 67 unique frames for that opening street scene in both mine and MCH's, and we are paused on frame 4 of 67.  I also inspected neighbouring frames and those are all clean in MCH's vesion too.   So whatever MCH has done is some kind of magic that I don't understand.

I set my detelecine filter to debug mode with TFM(display=true) and none of the frames were detected as interlaced, so they aren't being deinterlaced by TFM, therefore TFM is not causing those artefacts.  And I disabled TFM's deinterlacing anyway with TFM(PP=0) so I'm definitely not adding those artefacts. If I do absolutely no video processing at all, the same artefacts are still present, so I am confident they are baked into the source.   

I have no idea how MCH removed them.   Maybe they were removed by fluke as part of the "remove 1 in 5 frames" when decimating the field matched 30p to 24p.  Perhaps that 1 in 5 just happened to land on those problematic frames and remove them?   I tried TDecimate(mode=0/1) which toggles between removing "most similar duplicate" and "last frame in string of duplicates" without improvement.  For this street scene the camera isn't moving very much and all of them are below the CFrameDiff threshold so almost all of them are detected a duplicates, and it has to remove 1 in 5 from the field matched 30p stream created by TFM.

ireactions wrote:

I really, really, really do not understand why anyone would put so much effort into cleaning up the Mill Creek files of Season 1 when they have the Universal NTSC DVDs...

Well, mostly out of curiosity to see if it could be fixed, and then later because we want to also fix those problematic Universal NTSC episodes as well. It seems there are episodes where the field alignment issue is not visible in the end credits text, but IS visible in the live action shots.   Perhaps because the credit fonts are serif'd in such a way that hides it a bit.   The end credits for season 4 use a much thinner font so they won't be able to hide there.  The Mill Creek version has much worse alignment and it shows up on all seasons end credits.

Re: Sliders DVD Releases (Universal, Mill Creek, SD blu-ray, Restoration)

pneumatic wrote:

creating a 1.022% (720/704) wider aspect.

is there any chance that the stretching caused the artifacts to "smooth" out more, and thus be less visable/pixalated?


pneumatic wrote:

It seems there are episodes where the field alignment issue is not visible in the end credits text, but IS visible in the live action shots.

besides some of the drabby colors of the episodes in s1 and with some in s2, this has been my contention as well but i didn't know how to express it.    it may also be worse during periods of motion.   but nonetheless, universal managed to make the material feel so aged and dated with their poor handling of the stuff.  and it was less of a problem on the 4:3, tube tvs but does not translate well for modern tvs.   

when this was released, however, in 2004, hdtvs were a thing and a lot of people had them.

633 (edited by pneumatic 2023-03-04 13:12:08)

Re: Sliders DVD Releases (Universal, Mill Creek, SD blu-ray, Restoration)

RussianCabbie_Lotteryfan wrote:

is there any chance that the stretching caused the artifacts to "smooth" out more, and thus be less visable/pixalated?

I don't believe so - that quality of antialiasing requires a lot more than just scaling.

I noticed the cold open for S03E13 Murder Most Foul has similar artefacts baked into the source as well, and they are present in MCH's encode too, so I don't think MCH applied any antialiasing.

If I was forced to bet money on it, I'd say MCH's decimation from 30p->24p just happened to throw out the frames which had the deinterlacing artefacts in them (there's only a handful of them at random parts in that 67 frame sequence, so the chances are not totally miniscule).   Perhaps MCH's decimator was set up to preference cleaner looking frames when deciding which frame to throw away every cycle of 5 frames.  Due to the camera being relatively still, decimator sees 5 frames that are all very similar and has to decide which one is the duplicate to discard.

634 (edited by pneumatic 2023-03-10 20:21:25)

Re: Sliders DVD Releases (Universal, Mill Creek, SD blu-ray, Restoration)

I think I figured out what MCH is using to smooth out those tree branches at top of frame - this popular deinterlacer called QTGMC. As I am able to replicate the same image quality with QTGMC.

What I think is happening: MCH has set the post-telecine combing detection threshold lower than I have, and as a result of this many frames in that scene are being falsely detected as combed (interlaced), causing QTGMC frames to be substituted for those frames, thereby inadvertently smoothing out the artefacts which are baked into the source.   Whereas my script has combing thresholds set much higher so mine is just weaving fields (detelecine) to progressive frames and showing those frames as is, warts and all. 

The reason I use a higher combing threshold is due to false positives, things like car radiator grilles or clothing with pinstripes can cause the frame to be flagged as combed (interlaced) and trigger QTGMC (or whatever deinterlacer I choose) which doesn't extract as much resolution as detelecine (weaving fields to progressive frames).

By the way QTGMC is effective at suppressing the field alignment issue too, and looks sharper [1][2][3] but introduces moire artefacts on stippled patterns [4].

Re: Sliders DVD Releases (Universal, Mill Creek, SD blu-ray, Restoration)

You are quite the forensic scientist to figure that out. So that means they did additional processing after ripping the dvd?

Re: Sliders DVD Releases (Universal, Mill Creek, SD blu-ray, Restoration)

One area I'd be very interested in pneumatic's take:

Is there something about 1995-era digital videotape that creates odd visual patterns? The German standard-definition blu-ray of SLIDERS has very nice video quality for Seasons 2 - 5, better than the NTSC DVDs and using the PAL masters at high file sizes. Season 2 looks pretty good to me, but there's this odd texture to the video, like vertical rectangles:

https://i.ibb.co/dPPhSxj/sliders.jpg

It looks fine at living room distance and this texture isn't present in Seasons 3 - 5. Also, Topaz AI has no trouble smoothing out this texture without retaining the image details within the video.

I recently got my hands on the Anchor Bay DVDs of XENA which has significantly higher video quality than the Universal DVD release because Anchor Bay used more discs. The first season of XENA was, like SLIDERS in Season 2, shot on film (16mm instead of SLIDERS' 35mm) and edited on 1995 era digital videotape. And XENA's first season also has the same odd pattern to the video:

https://i.ibb.co/QNP7HRT/xena.jpg

As with SLIDERS, this pattern doesn't seem to impede AI upscaling as the blocks seem to contain enough image data for Topaz to smooth it out and keep the details. And, as with SLIDERS, it doesn't appear in XENA's subsequent seasons which would have been edited on a later digital videotape format.

I wonder what causes this video pattern and why it stops appearing in late 1996 digital videotape. I wonder if it's something that results from transferring film to videotape using the formats of that era or if it's specific to the videotape.

I had been rewatching XENA last year but stopped by the first few episodes of Season 5 (of 6) because the VHS-video quality of the Universal DVDs was so unappealing. I am so pleased with the Anchor Bay set (even with the Season 1 video quality) that I don't want to resume watching with Season 5 and am starting all over with XENA in Season 1.

637 (edited by pneumatic 2023-03-13 04:39:02)

Re: Sliders DVD Releases (Universal, Mill Creek, SD blu-ray, Restoration)

RussianCabbie_Lotteryfan wrote:

So that means they did additional processing after ripping the dvd?

In the case of MCH's rip, they would have first detelecined & deinterlaced the DVD's 480i MPEG2 video stream, resulting in progressive frames which were then transcoded to h.264.  Utilities like ffmpeg, handbrake, staxrip etc. can automate this in a one step process, and they appear to be using the free Avisynth filters like TFM, Telecide, TDecimate, Decimate, QTGMC, yadif, bwdif etc. for the detelecine & deinterlacing.   ffmpeg or x264.exe is generally used for the transcoding to h.264.   

ireactions wrote:

One area I'd be very interested in pneumatic's take: Is there something about 1995-era digital videotape that creates odd visual patterns?

I've seen a similar pattern on my Mad About You season 1 PAL DVD and Rugrats on streaming service which appears to be sourced from old 90s masters.   I've got no idea what causes it, it looks a bit like film grain to me, but distorted in some way.  Maybe analogue composite video artefacts interacting with the film grain in some weird way, and then perhaps MPEG2 (DVD) compression interacting with it further.

Re: Sliders DVD Releases (Universal, Mill Creek, SD blu-ray, Restoration)

Let this inspire us!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixPBhkmBHKw

Re: Sliders DVD Releases (Universal, Mill Creek, SD blu-ray, Restoration)

pneumatic wrote:
ireactions wrote:

One area I'd be very interested in pneumatic's take: Is there something about 1995-era digital videotape that creates odd visual patterns?

I've seen a similar pattern on my Mad About You season 1 PAL DVD and Rugrats on streaming service which appears to be sourced from old 90s masters.   I've got no idea what causes it, it looks a bit like film grain to me, but distorted in some way.  Maybe analogue composite video artefacts interacting with the film grain in some weird way, and then perhaps MPEG2 (DVD) compression interacting with it further.

It's interesting that you see this blocky pattern on RUGRATS. I've read that the animation was recorded on 35mm film before transferring it to videotape for broadcast. XENA's first season was shot on 16mm film. The blockiness is significantly stronger than on Season 2 of SLIDERS, shot on 35mm film.

I noticed that the block pattern on XENA vanishes at Episode 1.19, as though after 1.18, they abruptly switched to a different digital videotape format for editing.

Re: Sliders DVD Releases (Universal, Mill Creek, SD blu-ray, Restoration)

ireactions wrote:

It's interesting that you see this blocky pattern on RUGRATS. I've read that the animation was recorded on 35mm film before transferring it to videotape for broadcast. XENA's first season was shot on 16mm film. The blockiness is significantly stronger than on Season 2 of SLIDERS, shot on 35mm film.


https://i.lensdump.com/i/THFfAP.png
https://i2.lensdump.com/i/THFFVm.png

In motion the pattern changes every frame like film grain - is that what you're seeing too?

Weird how they made animation through film back then, I can't even imagine how that would work.

RussianCabbie_Lotteryfan wrote:

Let this inspire us!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixPBhkmBHKw

Geoblocked by CBS

Re: Sliders DVD Releases (Universal, Mill Creek, SD blu-ray, Restoration)

The pattern on MAD ABOUT YOU looks like what I'm seeing on XENA and SLIDERS. I don't really recognize the RUGRATS pattern.

My understanding is that animation cels would be positioned in frame stacks to be filmed with a rostrum camera to record each frame, putting the combined cel images onto 35mm film and then spliced into a reel. I imagine that, for television, the film would be transferred to videotape for TV broadcast.

Re: Sliders DVD Releases (Universal, Mill Creek, SD blu-ray, Restoration)

I've been AI upscaling episodes 1.02 - 1.09 of SLIDERS. No increase in resolution, just adding graininess to the 480 image to fill in the blurriness. It looks passably okay on my 55 inch HDTV at living room distance, but it's very grainy and staticy. I think a part of the staticy look: the latest Topaz AI has a minimum grain size setting (1 on a scale of 1 - 15) and no longer lets me reduce the grain to 0.1 - 0.9 on their scale. All the grains are way too big, distracting rom the image instead of giving the impression that the image is composed of the grain. I think, once I finish my XENA cleanup on the first season (removing the blocky digital videotape distortion), I'll take another run at SLIDERS 1.02 - 1.09 with the older version of Topaz and set a finer grain level.

Re: Sliders DVD Releases (Universal, Mill Creek, SD blu-ray, Restoration)

ireactions wrote:

I've been AI upscaling episodes 1.02 - 1.09 of SLIDERS. No increase in resolution, just adding graininess to the 480 image to fill in the blurriness. It looks passably okay on my 55 inch HDTV at living room distance, but it's very grainy and staticy. I think a part of the staticy look: the latest Topaz AI has a minimum grain size setting (1 on a scale of 1 - 15) and no longer lets me reduce the grain to 0.1 - 0.9 on their scale. All the grains are way too big, distracting rom the image instead of giving the impression that the image is composed of the grain. I think, once I finish my XENA cleanup on the first season (removing the blocky digital videotape distortion), I'll take another run at SLIDERS 1.02 - 1.09 with the older version of Topaz and set a finer grain level.

Does the software allow you to use previous models easily, or do you have to rollback or use some hack?

Re: Sliders DVD Releases (Universal, Mill Creek, SD blu-ray, Restoration)

There used to be a Topaz page where you could download old versions, and I downloaded an older build of Topaz that I've reinstalled. They seem to have now taken all the old versions of the video upscaler, however.

645 (edited by pneumatic 2023-03-28 17:09:06)

Re: Sliders DVD Releases (Universal, Mill Creek, SD blu-ray, Restoration)

For season 1 I'm probably going to just use QTGMC deinterlacer on the lot.  I subjectively like the way it looks and it will keep season 1 looking consistent from episode to episode.  If I try to do special processing on a per-episode basis to extract the most out of each episode, I'll end up with some episodes looking sharper than others.  If I switch to PAL for those episodes, the colour grading of the PAL version can be noticeably different.  I think I'd rather go with the lowest common denominator and keep the whole season looking as consistent as possible, within limits.

Here's a preview (download the file - the version that plays embedded in your web browser is Google's transcode and doesn't represent the quality).  I'd recommend viewing it on a TV at normal viewing distance, if possible.  I'm interested to see how it compares with Topaz as I'm not familiar with that product. The previews on their website seem to be quite impressive though.

Re: Sliders DVD Releases (Universal, Mill Creek, SD blu-ray, Restoration)

pneumatic wrote:

For season 1 I'm probably going to just use QTGMC deinterlacer on the lot.  I subjectively like the way it looks and it will keep season 1 looking consistent from episode to episode.  If I try to do special processing on a per-episode basis to extract the most out of each episode, I'll end up with some episodes looking sharper than others.  If I switch to PAL for those episodes, the colour grading of the PAL version can be noticeably different.  I think I'd rather go with the lowest common denominator and keep the whole season looking as consistent as possible, within limits.

Here's a preview (download the file - the version that plays embedded in your web browser is Google's transcode and doesn't represent the quality).  I'd recommend viewing it on a TV at normal viewing distance, if possible.  I'm interested to see how it compares with Topaz as I'm not familiar with that product. The previews on their website seem to be quite impressive though.

looks pretty good.   especially the close up stuff.

this has upscaling to 720 using that open source software?

definitely think you can get gains out of topaz.

647 (edited by ireactions 2023-03-23 20:52:05)

Re: Sliders DVD Releases (Universal, Mill Creek, SD blu-ray, Restoration)

pneumatic's result with "Princes of Wails" is vastly superior to anything Topaz has done with Universal's Season 1 (aside from the pilot). Topaz made 1.02 - 1.09 look like a muddy, watercoloury mess. However, to rip the DVDs, I copied them with MakeMKV, then decombed-deinterlaced the MKVs in Handbrake. QTGMC seems superior.

Topaz can't upscale the MKV file without decombing and deinterlacing; comb lines and jagged edges keep appearing across the image. Even Topaz's deinterlacer can't address it.

I'm not sure why QTGMC results look so much better than Handbrake's decomb. Maybe pneumatic can explain that.

Once my XENA upscales are done by tomorrow, I'm going to follow pneumatic's lead. I'll use MakeMKV to re-copy the Universal discs for 1.02 - 1.09 and use Hybrid and QTGMC to deinterlace the rips to MP4 and then see if Topaz can do better with this process.

648 (edited by RussianCabbie_Lotteryfan 2023-03-23 21:25:10)

Re: Sliders DVD Releases (Universal, Mill Creek, SD blu-ray, Restoration)

ireactions wrote:

I'm not sure why QTGMC results look so much better than Handbrake's decomb. Maybe pneumatic can explain that.

just did some minor googling -- it seems maybe QTGMC is generally considered better than handbrake for deinterlacing (not sure if this diffs with decomb) because of a better algorithm.  maybe it is more intensive (and therefore requires more software and perhaps slower process).

@pneumatic  -- i see you used the "slower" mode.  have you compared vs. what i presume would be a "slowest" mode?



*****

Perhaps offtopic but, I made some adjustments in VLC when opening the file.

https://i.ibb.co/v1TQLRq/image.png

Colors more natural, additional sharpening, and I think (unless I am crazy) the banding removal rather high helped.  But I am not sure there are bands to remove?  In any case, the denoiser made a nice difference in the advanced settings.

649 (edited by pneumatic 2023-03-24 04:34:31)

Re: Sliders DVD Releases (Universal, Mill Creek, SD blu-ray, Restoration)

RussianCabbie_Lotteryfan wrote:

this has upscaling to 720 using that open source software?

No upscaling, except from 720x480 -> 720x540 to convert it to square pixels 4:3 (720/540 = 4/3).

The full script I used for that file was:

# set up source clip
clip = "C:\S01E04.mkv"
video = LWLibavVideoSource(clip, stream_index=-1, repeat=true, cache=true)
audio = LWLibavAudioSource(clip, stream_index=1, cache=true)
AudioDub(video, audio)

# QTGMC deinterlacing
cores=4 
QTGMC(preset="slower", FPSDivisor=1, EdiThreads=cores/2, Sharpness=1.0)

# scale to 4:3 square pixels
LanczosResize(720,540)

# turn on multithreading for performance increase
Prefetch(cores)

RussianCabbie_Lotteryfan wrote:

definitely think you can get gains out of topaz.

Yeah it would be interesting to see what Topaz can do with that file I uploaded.  ireactions mentioned deinterlacing artefacts, but the file I uploaded is progressive, so as long as Topaz is configured to not do any further deinterlacing or detelecining, it shouldn't introduce any new artefacts in that regard.


ireactions wrote:

QTGMC seems superior.

There is an explanation of how it works here: http://avisynth.nl/index.php/QTGMC#Algorithm_Details

On a synthetic test pattern it actually resolves less resolution than detelecine because it doesn't weave fields to progressive frames; it only interpolates them in a very clever way: https://imgsli.com/MTY0MzIx

Note the alternating 1px white and black lines become solid white/black (since an interpolation of white px above and white px below = white) and the converging lines in the circle start to become slightly blurry the closer they get together. 

But that is by design, and season 1 doesn't have a full 480p to resolve anyway due to the field alignment issue, so it is my intention to blur those lines together.  But this is why I wouldn't use it on the later seasons which don't have the field alignment issue - those will have better resolution using delecine instead of QTGMC. 

But, subjectively I still think QTGMC looks very nice in its own unique way.  I especially like that it outputs 60fps as this preserves all the original frame pacing.  You may have noticed the animations in the intro sequence are smoother, like the spinning earths, and a couple of brief 60fps animations at other points.  With detelecine those would get decimated down to 24fps resulting in stutter or frame blending artefacts of those particular animations.  The rest of the show itself is almost always 24fps though so no improvements there - actually QTGMC has slightly worse frame pacing on 24fps sections as the output is 60p which means 3:2 judder.  But I don't really mind that, actually I find it interesting and imbues a certain quality.   edit: and I just remembered QTGMC's output can be converted to 24fps if desired, using its FPSDivisor=2 param which will output 30fps, and then TDecimate can be used on that to remove duplicates to 24. 


RussianCabbie_Lotteryfan wrote:

@pneumatic  -- i see you used the "slower" mode.  have you compared vs. what i presume would be a "slowest" mode?

The 4 slowest modes are: slow, slower, very slow, placebo

The default is "slower", and is what I used for that file.  My i7-4790k (4c/8t @ 4.0ghz) can just barely manage "slower" in realtime (~65fps... so 5fps headroom) but "slow" seems to look pretty much as good and gives some nice headroom at about 90fps so I use that when screening an episode.

650 (edited by RussianCabbie_Lotteryfan 2023-03-24 10:17:32)

Re: Sliders DVD Releases (Universal, Mill Creek, SD blu-ray, Restoration)

@pneumatic 

you mentioned electing to go with the lowest common denominator for consistency reasons rather than handling content on a case by case basis.

i'm wondering, having done some inspection of season 1, what is your sense of the varation between episodes and if you were to group the episodes to tiers (by quality), assuming you have an opinion on this, what would they be?

we've talked on the past here about some of the variation in s1 and have had various theories about it, whether it be in the post production process or just the lighting used when shot.

Re: Sliders DVD Releases (Universal, Mill Creek, SD blu-ray, Restoration)

RussianCabbie_Lotteryfan wrote:

@pneumatic 

you mentioned electing to go with the lowest common denominator for consistency reasons rather than handling content on a case by case basis.

i'm wondering, having done some inspection of season 1, what is your sense of the varation between episodes and if you were to group the episodes to tiers (by quality), assuming you have an opinion on this, what would they be?

we've talked on the past here about some of the variation in s1 and have had various theories about it, whether it be in the post production process or just the lighting used when shot.

Funny you should ask as I was just going through season 1 of the Universal R1 DVD to see how many episodes have the field alignment issue.  I'm having trouble figuring out what is actually going on with these episodes.  It seems the field alignment problem presents itself only on certain scenes?  The end credits are consistently clean, so I can't use it as a litmus test.

Another problem I'm having is that inspecting all the episodes is spoiling them for me as I haven't actually watched season 1 yet.

What I might do is view the first 2 or 3 episodes in their entirety to get a better idea of what the image quality is like over the full length of an episode, and re-evaluate.   

In the meantime here is that same preview as before but detelecined instead of QTGMC:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/193II5f … share_link

Some things you might notice:

1. The spinning earths in the intro now have blended frames, as that animation was done at 30fps and the whole video was detelecined to 24fps.  I chose to use frame blending instead of frame skipping otherwise the animation looks too jerky for my taste.  It's possible to create a variable framerate .mkv file to avoid this issue altogether, but it's quite involved and requires a 2-pass process to generate timecode files for the mkv encoder to use. 

2. The Jeep radiator grille at 8mins is twitching because the deteleciner is falsely detecting the grille pattern as a combing artefact, and is reacting by enabling deinterlacing for those few frames.  I have set the combing detection threshold quite high (128 combed pixels within any 16x16 block) but it still gives a false positive.  I can't set it any higher otherwise there will be visible combed frames creeping into the intro sequence due to all the interlaced edits it uses, which need to be detected as combed and deinterlaced.  On the plus side, the Venetian blinds at 10:27 are not producing a false positive like in MCH's encode.

3. Fine details appear sharper and resolve more detail than QTGMC (example) but image is noisier as the noise isn't getting treated by QTGMC's lovely interpolation smoothing.

652 (edited by RussianCabbie_Lotteryfan 2023-03-24 19:22:53)

Re: Sliders DVD Releases (Universal, Mill Creek, SD blu-ray, Restoration)

pneumatic wrote:

3. Fine details appear sharper and resolve more detail than QTGMC (example) but image is noisier as the noise isn't getting treated by QTGMC's lovely interpolation smoothing.


I do think in spite of that the QTGMC is preferred for the reasons you cite here.  It's certainly noticable in comparing the clips you've shared.  And the zoom on that image comparer shows a signficant difference (with streaks running across the detelecine)

653 (edited by ireactions 2023-03-25 00:12:40)

Re: Sliders DVD Releases (Universal, Mill Creek, SD blu-ray, Restoration)

Can pneumatic tell me what settings to use for QTGMC in Hybrid? I'm still getting the jagged edges in "Fever" on the pharmacy shelves that Handbrake detelecine smooths out. I think I need some direction.

Hybrid can be downloaded here:
https://www.videohelp.com/software/Hybrid

It's possible I just need to learn how to use Avisynth.

https://i.ibb.co/WFgJd7k/hybrid.jpg

EDIT
Looks like I wasn't using the Hybrid-Avisynth settings. Found some instructions. Running the job again.
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/401 … ost2619089

Re: Sliders DVD Releases (Universal, Mill Creek, SD blu-ray, Restoration)

Hybrid and QTGMC has done a pretty good job of smoothing out the 'jaggies' in "Fever". Those shelves in the pharmacy now look smooth. But I'm wondering if I'm using the best settings. I'd like pneumatic's opinion.

https://i.ibb.co/BKQPkZG/hybrid.jpg

655 (edited by pneumatic 2023-03-25 11:15:59)

Re: Sliders DVD Releases (Universal, Mill Creek, SD blu-ray, Restoration)

RussianCabbie_Lotteryfan wrote:

I do think in spite of that the QTGMC is preferred for the reasons you cite here.  It's certainly noticable in comparing the clips you've shared.  And the zoom on that image comparer shows a signficant difference (with streaks running across the detelecine)

Yep, and also there appears to be a drop shadow underneath the top row of brick of the water fountain - I think that might be a field alignment artefact?  QTGMC is smoothing it out.



ireactions wrote:

Hybrid and QTGMC has done a pretty good job of smoothing out the 'jaggies' in "Fever". Those shelves in the pharmacy now look smooth. But I'm wondering if I'm using the best settings. I'd like pneumatic's opinion.

https://i.ibb.co/BKQPkZG/hybrid.jpg

My QTGMC clip was just QTGMC only (nothing else, no other processing like TIVTC) with preset="slower", sharpness="1.0".

My detelecine clip was TIVTC only (TIVTC settings in your GUI screenshot).  I'll try to translate any of my settings which are different to your screenshot:

TFM mode: 2 way match
TFM advanced tab: combing threshold 9 (incorrectly labelled as chroma threshold in GUI)
TFM advanced tab: MI 128
TFM advanced tab: scene threshold 100
TDecimate: hybrid = enabled  *
TDecimate: VidDetect A or B  *
TDecimate: VidThresh 4.5 *
TDecimate: obey TFM hints = false *
TDecimate: Chroma unticked
TDecimate: Denoise ticked (this doesn't denoise the output image, it just does it internally to get better frame metrics)

* if all 4 of these can't be set, then the "hybrid" frameblending feature probably won't work properly, and in this case set hybrid = disabled

In your screenshot it's got QTGMC as the deinterlacer for TFM.  That just means if after the detelecining process there are any combed frames still coming out of it, those will get deinterlaced with QTGMC.  This is needed as there will be the odd sequence here and there which can't be detelecined due to the weird editing they did back in the 90's where they'd often add purely interlaced frames (which can't be detelecined) for the special effects or when splicing in certain scene changes.  The problem is that you get false positives like the Jeep grille etc. which look like interlaced frames to TFM, so those frames end up getting deinterlaced when they could have been detelecined instead.  That's why I set the combing detection threshold higher (MI=128) to try and avoid those false positives, but they still can happen.

Also keep in mind that app you're using appears to be using the Vapoursynth version of those filters, whereas I'm using the Avisynth version.  They should be pretty much identical though, but you never know.

Re: Sliders DVD Releases (Universal, Mill Creek, SD blu-ray, Restoration)

Thanks. I did switch to Avisynth over Vapoursynth. For some reason the VidDetect settings are greyed out.

https://i.ibb.co/RT6RSYh/hybrid1.jpg ||https://i.ibb.co/cgP1wck/hybrid2.jpg

On my (low end) gaming laptop, Hybrid is estimating about seven minutes per episode encode, so there's a lot of room for experimentation.

I played "Fever" just now on my 55 inc TV. "Fever" has looked ghastly when played from the Universal DVD. Jagged edges, dull details. But this QTGMC version looks clean and reasonable. Long shots still lack detail, but they don't seem as blurrily smeared or jaggedly pixelated as they did before. The video quality has gone from terrible to reasonably okay, although still a step down from the more detailed digital videotape look of Season 2 or the crisper look of Season 3 or the crystalline definition of Seasons 4 - 5.

The QTGMC encodes are pretty enjoyable to watch on a modern HDTV. I'm now curious about upscaling these files to 720p in Topaz once I redo all the encodes with pneumatic's settings. I might even try outputting the QTGMC file to 720p and letting Topaz AI run on it without adding more pixels just to see what happens.

Re: Sliders DVD Releases (Universal, Mill Creek, SD blu-ray, Restoration)

Another question: why output the files to 720x540 instead of 640x480? Which one is the 'native' resolution of the DVD files?

658 (edited by pneumatic 2023-03-25 11:16:16)

Re: Sliders DVD Releases (Universal, Mill Creek, SD blu-ray, Restoration)

ireactions wrote:

Another question: why output the files to 720x540 instead of 640x480? Which one is the 'native' resolution of the DVD files?

720x480 is the resolution of the MPEG2 video streams on the DVD.  MediaInfo is a great tool for getting this kind of info.

Some episodes appear to be 704x480 pillarboxed within a 720x480 frame.   704x480 is supposed to be the analogue NTSC resolution, and 720x480 the digital one. 

640x480 would discard around 80 lines of resolution in the horizontal.     

ireactions wrote:

For some reason the VidDetect settings are greyed out.

In that case, TDecimate's "hybrid" setting (which frameblends 30fps sequences to 24fps, such as the spinning earths) may not work properly, since "A and B" means TDecimate will only blend 30fps sequences to 24fps if both TDecimate AND TFM agree the sequence is 30fps.   On my system TFM consistently gets it wrong, so I set it to "A or B" to work around it, and then I tell TDecimate to ignore TFM's opinion by setting "hint=false" in TDecimate, but it doesn't seem like that setting is available in the Hybrid app judging by the screenshots.

Alternatively you can avoid all this by just disabling TDecimate's "hybrid" setting, but then the spinning earths will stutter.  But the rest of the show will be smooth and correct since the show is 99% 24fps which doesn't need to be converted anyway.  It's only the odd 30fps sequence that will look better with blending, like the spinning earths, and some other random sequences like when Arturo is seen from the perspective of the ATM machine in Luck of the Draw.  But honestly frame blending can look pretty bad at times on faster pans so I wouldn't stress about getting this feature to work.  MCH's encode doesn't use it either.

Another setting I forgot to mention was TFM's scenethresh which I set to 100 to disable its scene detection which in my experience gets it wrong a lot of the time as well.

I've updated my previous post to include all this extra info.

Re: Sliders DVD Releases (Universal, Mill Creek, SD blu-ray, Restoration)

Thanks. As a follow up: if I went with purely QTGMC, what settings would you recommend?

https://i.ibb.co/B4cXkF6/qtgmc.jpg

The Bob option boosts the framerate to 60fps; do you recommend that or would you stick to 30?

Or is the TIVTC with QTGMC combination your recommendation?

Also, for the encoder container: I'm using NVEnc to take advantage of nVidia hardware acceleration. What settings would you recommend for the best quality?

https://i.ibb.co/qW8QPF0/hybrid2.jpg

And what settings do you recommend for the Crop/Resize to avoid losing resolution?

https://i.ibb.co/zrRFvH3/hybrid3.jpg

Since the Universal files don't have much image detail to lose, I want to get the best I can out of these files to see what Topaz AI can do with them. My main concern: I don't want to lose any film grain (assuming these files have any) because AI upscaling is dependent on grain for rebuilding the image.

660 (edited by pneumatic 2023-03-25 17:56:51)

Re: Sliders DVD Releases (Universal, Mill Creek, SD blu-ray, Restoration)

ireactions wrote:

As a follow up: if I went with purely QTGMC, what settings would you recommend?

That qtgmc.mkv clip I uploaded was just QTGMC(preset="slower", Sharpness=1.0, FPSDivisor=1) and nothing else.

From the screenshot it looks like the Preset dropdown should contain the "slower" setting.

Sharpness=1.0, that one is in the GUI.

FPSDivisor=1 means double frame rate (60fps) which gives better frame pacing since 24 goes nicer into 60 than 30.

The rest I didn't set which means they are left at default values.  I presume once you select a preset in the GUI it should auto-populate most of the other settings?  Some of the other settings I can't match to anything in the QTGMC wiki, probably just nomenclature differences though.


ireactions wrote:

Or is the TIVTC with QTGMC combination your recommendation?

Using them in combination just means TIVTC will be used 99% of the time, and QTGMC will be used on those 1% rare few sequences that contain combed frames, like the Jeep scene and some bits in the intro sequence.

If you want a smoother look with noise reduction and sharpening, use exclusively QTGMC.

If you want a noisier but higher resolution image, go for TIVTC (I'm then adding a bit of sharpening through my media player's renderer).


ireactions wrote:

what settings do you recommend for the Crop/Resize to avoid losing resolution?

I'm not doing any cropping myself - the edges of the frame seem to be fairly clean.

It looks like you've set the output to square pixels 720x540 which is what I'm using.   Alternatively it is possible to leave the video at its original 720x480, and then flag the video stream with an aspect of 4:3, which the media player should see and know to scale it to a 4:3 size.  I'm not sure which settings in the GUI would produce that though.


ireactions wrote:

Also, for the encoder container: I'm using NVEnc to take advantage of nVidia hardware acceleration. What settings would you recommend for the best quality?

I don't have any experience with NVEnc - my previews were encoded on CPU with ffmpeg command line like this:

ffmpeg -color_range tv -i "C:\MyAvisynthScript.avs" -c:v libx264 -tune film -b:v 10000000 -pix_fmt yuv420p -color_range tv output.mkv